Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Julia Sakharova (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. After extensive discussion, there is still no agreement whether to keep or delete the article. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:29, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Julia Sakharova

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• Articles for deletion/Julia Sakharova
• Articles for deletion/Julia Sakharova (2nd nomination)

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Julia Sakharova (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Biography created by the subject of the article; few references, dubiously notable. eh bien mon prince (talk) 06:33, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 06:47, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 06:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

• Delete I found https://music.umsl.edu/Faculty/juliasakharova.html that shows she is an assistant professor of music, violin at the University of Missouri, Saint Louis. https://www.allmusic.com/album/rachmaninoff-the-%C3l%C3%A9giaque-piano-trios-mw0001417099 shows one notable work. She does not meet WP:NACADEMIC, WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG. Possibly WP:TOOSOON. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Still a delete. The sources are passing mentions of the subject. Most are not significant coverage of the subject. Where there is significant coverage of the subject, it is not independent of the subject. This means that GNG is not met. MUSICBIO is still not met. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
    • @Walter Görlitz: If MUSICBIO is still not met in your view, please explain how it doesn’t meet #5 and #6. Thanks, Zingarese talk · contribs 16:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
      • 5. "Has released two or more albums" implies that the subject has released the album. She was a player as a member of an ensemble on an album. 6. "Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians" The subject is not an ensemble and "or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles" none of the ensembles she has been in have stand-alone articles. There is not enough information in the secondary sources to create a bio article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:51, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
        • With that said, I'll ask two editors who regularly find sources and discuss AfDs about music-related subjects to weigh-in (whether on my interpretation of MUSICBIO or on the notability of the subject is up to them): @Michig: and @Sergecross73:. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 08:40, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 08:40, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Missouri-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 08:40, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

• Keep Ms. Sakharova is currently the 2nd violinist of the acclaimed Arianna String Quartet and in this role recorded the opus 18 and middle period string quartets of Beethoven on the Centaur Records label. Jerry Dubins of Fanfare magazine hailed the recording of the middle quartets as "the greatest performances" of the quartets "in recorded history". This season, the quartet will record the late quartets to finish their complete Beethoven cycle. Also, Sakharova also served as the assistant concertmaster of the Alabama Symphony Orchestra for some time, as well as a member of Albany Symphony Orchestra. I think she passes WP:MUSICBIO #5 and #6 as such. I am also somewhat taken by surprise the the Arianna Quartet does not even have an article - they have been reviewed by NY Times, Chicago Tribune and more, and released numerous albums on major labels... But not every single subject that meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines has its own article, and I think this will continue to be the case. Zingarese talk · contribs 04:04, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
  • I just created an article for the Arianna String Quartet. But the comment above that “none” of the ensembles she was previously in have stand-alone articles was not even true when it was made. Zingarese talk · contribs 19:14, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
    • It wasn't? Which of her ensembles have articles? Which do? Clearly I'm missing it so rather than offering vague assurance that they have articles, you can show them. At least we have a redirect target now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
      • Albany Symphony Orchestra, where she was a member for some time, and Alabama Symphony Orchestra, where she served as assistant concertmaster.Zingarese talk · contribs 00:19, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
        • Albany is not listed on her article. So we don't have "ensembles" we have a singular ensemble. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
• Keep I have added some references to the article (more could no doubt be found), and started a Discography section, to which the Arianna String Quartet recordings could be added. I think she meets WP:MUSICBIO #1, at least, and WP:GNG. (It's clear from the edit history that most of what was written by the subject of the article was deleted, and it has been rewritten by other editors since then, with information from cited sources.) RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:06, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 09:41, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Also pinging Walter Görlitz since some sources have been found since the vote.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jovanmilic97 (talk) 09:48, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

• Keep Agree per above, and IMO:meets WP:MUSICBIO #1, most sources are reliable....passes GNG. Hninthuzar (talk) 10:51, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - Can someone point out to me the third party sources that provide significant coverage on the subject? Not the groups she’s in, but the person herself. There’s a pretty broad consensus that if a musician is only discussed on the context of her respective groups or bands, then that’s how they should be represented on Wikipedia - in the article of the groups, not in her own article. Unless someone can point these out, these keep votes look more like WP:ITSNOTABLE violations and I’d be in favor of deletion or redirecting the article. Sergecross73 msg me 22:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

• Updating stance to Delete upon the lack of evidence forindependent notability. Still fine with a redirect if there’s an agreed upon target. Sergecross73 msg me 15:14, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. There may be more coverage in non-English sources given her origin, but it seems she has been based in the West for most of her career, so maybe not. I didn't find much that isn't already cited in the article. An article in Double Bassist (Google News, article not viewable online) appears to show that she won a prize at the 2003 Jeunesses Musicales Montreal International Competition (presumably a junior competition), and one from The Instrumentalist states that she won first prize at the 47th Olga Koussevitzky Competition for Strings and was a finalist in another competition. --Michig (talk) 08:33, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination, on account of subject failing WP:NMUSICIAN. Not enough sources verifying subject's independent notabiity have been identified, yet many editors are apparently reluctant to suggest deletion on account of sources supposedly existing in another language. It's revealing that in the effort to Keep the article (whose creator is the subject herself), editors have been creating peripheral articles, e.g. about ensembles she has played in. Anyone still not convinced can go through the list of musicians' notability criteria and check them out. Also do check out the subject's article in the Wikipedia of her native language. -The Gnome (talk) 11:09, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
  • No, I only created Arianna String Quartet because it is clearly independently notable - one of the finest American string quartets - and a Wikipedia entry does not exist for it! It doesn’t have anything to do with me engaging “in the effort to keep the article”. The articles for Albany Symphony Orchestra and Alabama Symphony Orchestra have already existed for 50 years. However, I continue to stand by my claim that she meets WP:MUSICBIO #6. #5 has been challenged because her recordings have all been chamber music recording; I can concede it might not meet that criterion as such. Zingarese talk · contribs 15:29, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
    • Is there any proof it is "one of the finest American string quartets"? I have never heard of them. I have heard of the Kronos Quartet and several others in Category:American string quartets (Del Sol Quartet, Esterhazy Quartet, Juilliard String Quartet, LaSalle Quartet and New World String Quartet) so by what qualification are they "one of the finest"? Also, Wikipedia has not existed for 50 years, so how have their articles existed for 50 years? My impression is that you're using exaggeration, or possibly just hyperbole, to make your case. Emperical statements are easier to verify. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:54, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
      • @Walter Görlitz: The Arianna String Quartet was the winner of the Fischoff International Chamber Music Competition in the United States in 1994, one of the largest competitions for chamber ensemble in the world and certainly the largest in America. Since then, critics have raved about Arianna; the Chicago Tribune wrote that they "make music with the tonal warmth, fastidious balance, and heightened communication skills of groups many years its senior", and of their recording of Beethoven's middle quartets, Fanfare magazine said: "I am prepared to state and defend my belief that these may just be the greatest performances of Beethoven’s middle quartets in recorded history." Of course, the "50 years" statement was hyperbole; The Gnome accused me of "creating peripheral articles" when the article about Arianna was the only one I created, which I did only because they are independently significant per the notability guidelines. (There are many other chamber ensembles out there that are also independently notable per MUSICBIO and GNG but don't have articles.) The Albany and Alabama articles have existed for many years. Zingarese talk · contribs 00:08, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
        • A major competition? How many other quartets have won that award (and who are they)? How much publicity did winning that award garner for them? Clearly they have some local coverage. but has BBC Music Magazine (or a similar publication) done a feature article on them? Has NPR made them a feature performer for any period of time? The underlying problem is that classical music gets very little recognition precisely because there is little interest in the field and few notable performers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
        • Even beyond that, do we have any evidence of Julia’s independent notability? To illustrate what I mean, let’s look at other media. We can go on and on about the awards Black Panther (film) or Call of Duty may win, that doesn’t make every single of their hundreds of staff members are notable and deserving of their own separate article. Same applies here. If every notable thing she does is in the context of a group she’s in, then you haven’t established the need for a separate article. Sergecross73 msg me 02:31, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.