Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:13, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov

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Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This page has already been deleted from the Russian and French Wikipedias, and this article has been tagged as a possible hoax for over a year. Therefore, a discussion is necessary to decide whether it is really a hoax that needs to be deleted. Clearly, there are serious concerns about the verifiability of many aspects of his biography that need to be addressed, as this article itself states in its "Criticism of biographies" section. IntoThinAir (talk) 20:44, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. IntoThinAir (talk) 20:44, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• Note: in some sense this is just a procedural nomination, given my lack of familiarity with the sources on which this article is based, as well as my lack of a firm position on whether this article should be deleted or not. In other words, in creating this AFD, my main goal is to provide a venue for other editors who understand this issue much better than I do to discuss whether WP:V and other relevant guidelines are adequately met in regards to this biography. IntoThinAir (talk) 20:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• In addition, if this discussion is closed as keep, I would like the hoax tag to be removed once and for all. IntoThinAir (talk) 17:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

• WP:GAMING? There are reasonable doubts about the reliability of most of the information in the article. What else is it if not hoax?·Carn !? 14:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. IntoThinAir (talk) 20:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. IntoThinAir (talk) 20:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

• Keep per previous nomination, nothing has changed since then. The criticism is largely based on WP:OR, particularly an e-mail correspondence with archives and related self-made conclusions. A reliable published secondary source analyzing the validity of claims is required to reach definite conclusions. Brandmeister^talk 09:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. If this person did exist then he was a notable person, and if not he was a notable fictional character. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:56, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. Whether he actually existed or not seems fairly irrelevant when there is a mountain of stuff written about him. As long as that's verifiable then he's notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:57, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment While I do not have the time (or even really the ability) to go through the sources and determine if any of them are reliable and significant, deciding that sources are bad and should be discounted is not WP:OR. If wikipedia goes through and determines that every source written about Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov is bad because the sources are either contradicting other, established sources about events or because they are patent nonsense, then he should not have an article. If a historian (or, preferable, 2 or 3) does the same thing and publishes an account about it, then he is notable and we can write about it. We don't write articles about the earth not being flat (though we do write them about the earth being round), we write articles about the belief that the earth is flat (possibly with sections on proofs that this belief is wrong) based on other people researching believers and writing about same. Rockphed (talk) 17:39, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov is really notable person as a participant of Resistance. There is a lot of published reliable sources claiming that. There is several paragraphs about him in the book about participation of Azerbaijan in World War II of Garash Madatov, there is an article about Jabrayilov in Azerbaijan Soviet Encyclopedia. And nothing which can proof that he is hoax. Only original research of some Wikipedia users. I visited house-museum of Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov in Shaki, had a discussion with the director of the museum, Javanshir Jabrayilov, who is the son of Ahmadiyya, made photos of awards, documents, original photos from France and letters to him. Also Javanshir Jabrayilov gave me all scans of the documents and photographs of Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov. Yes, there are some unclear moments in the biography of Jabrayilov. But it doesn't mean that all biography of Jabrayilov is "Soviet-era hoax". It is normal that there are many unclear moments in the events of World War II. But during the discussion on Russian Wikipedia everybody confirmed that Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov really took part in Resistance. In 1970s he visited France, we can see how really participants of Resistance (Rene Chambar, Louis Lasbareilles etc.) greet him. We can see how they visited memorial for Soviet victims. This visit was also documented in French "Sud Ouest" newspaper, where we can also see a photo of Jabrayilov. According to the article from this newspaper, maqui Jabrayilov was saved from a prison in Montauban while he was the prisoner of the Germans during the war. Later with the maquis of the region, he had to participate in the liberation of Montauban, Toulouse and Rodez. We cannot ignore these facts. We also cannot ignore the fact of the presence of French awards of Jabrayilov in his house-museum (Croix de Guerre, Croix des services militaires volontaires, Insignia for the Military Wounded, Croix du combattant etc.). Médaille militaire we can see only in the historical photos, which Jabrayilov brought from France[1][2] (as his son said to me this medal was taken from him in Moscow in 1966, when Jabrayilov was invited to greet Charles de Gaulle). French Caserne Bernadotte archive also officially confirmed Jabrayilov's participation in the Resistance movement[3]. In 2016 a plaque with the portrait of Jabrayilov was unveiled in front of the Mausoleum of Cabertat, close to Montauban[4]. So, according to the rules of Wikipedia, Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov is really notable as a participant of Resistance to have an article about him in Wikipedia. Interfase (talk) 19:06, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Keep, meets WP:GNG, and dare i say, WP:ANYBIO as an enduring part of the historical record (ie. national hero or example of postwar propaganda), that the articles on other WPs have been deleted are not a reason for deletion, in this case due to the generation of reports/discussions about this, it actually contributes to his wikinotableness. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

• Keep per previous nomination. --SalmanZ (talk) 13:28, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
• Keep a lot of info. Appears to pass WP:GNG. But may require proper cleanup to suit wiki.Mariah200 (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
• Delete or Rename like ru:Миф о Джебраилове as The myth of Jabrayilov per Not the hero: what is the use of debunking "de Gaulle's personal friend". Demand "if this discussion is closed as keep, I would like the hoax tag to be removed once and for all" is inadequate. See Warsaw concentration camp case - states (be it the USSR or Poland) have many resources to turn myths into documented "reality". However, you should not allow Wikipedia to be used for this. It is against WP:EXCEPTIONAL. A lot of information in the article is given according to sources representing either Soviet or Azerbaijani propaganda. Information from Wikipedia articles diverges into a thousand places and then these places will be used to “confirm” the lies written on Wikipedia.·Carn !? 12:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
• Weak keep. The article should not stress it's Wikipedia history so much, too much of this is about the deletion of Russian version. The sources for this are sparse. Unfortunately, majority of coverage is not in English, and worse, some of it is in Cyrillic so it means it's hard to search for people who don't use this alphabet. I think this can remain, with the lead containing the warning some have disputed the veracity of this issue. Hopefully one day a proper scholar, at least, a journalist who publishes in English, will tackle this. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:58, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
• Keep The Russian case is an informative example for general public about how Wikipedia works. This is useful for promoting Wikimedia values (which is very important task) and the whole sourced article is notable. Also for "this page has already been deleted from the Russian and French Wikipedias" — Russian one has new version. --ssr (talk) 11:19, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.