Talk:Dennis Nilsen/Archive 1

Archive 1

Misc

I have some material for this page that I will be posting shortly. --/Mat 11:03, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think I added enough information to remove the stub-status. FoekeNoppert 17:23, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Necrophilia

Isn't he a necropliliac? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.115.4.113 (talk) 16:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Subsequent arrest

This section reads somewhat like a story rather than an encyclopedia entry. Anybody with good understanding/knowledge of the article subject, if you could rewrite this in a more "encyclopedic" way that'd be great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.139.22 (talk) 11:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No, just seen a TV program. I copy-edited it anyway. Hope that helps zzz (talk) 14:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Copy-edited a lot of the article, more remains to be done. zzz (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

No free image?

Surely, surely we can make an exception for somebody who will never get out of jail alive? Vashti (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The image used is incorrect (reversed). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.95.169 (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Dead?

Announced on the UK news today (19.12.2011) that he died today. Good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.147.219 (talk) 23:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Nothing on BBC News website [[1]] or Google News. Do you have a reference? Cusop Dingle (talk) 17:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Probably confusion with Donald Neilson who died on the 18th. [2] Cusop Dingle (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Human flesh

How did they recognise the flesh to be human? --82.113.106.166 (talk) 20:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

It has been suggested that Nilsen was caught after the drainage engineer who was called to unblocked the drains recognised the smell of decaying human flesh from his time as a fire-fighter during the blitz. But I have not yet found a WP:RS for this. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

At least one source (Masters) describes the Dyno-Rod operator Michael Cattran as being thirty, which would negate any possibility of his having been in the Blitz. Masters says that Cattran recognised the blockage as a mass of meat (rather than the more usual backup of human excrement) and thought that it might have been dogmeat or chicken. A sample was sent for forensic analysis and then recognised as human. Cusop Dingle (talk) 07:59, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. So this could be added with a ref to Masters? My own copy of Killing for Company is in the loft (and I'm not sure what it's doing up there, ooo err). Martinevans123 (talk) 09:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Question Time

Nilsen was once a member of the studio audience for BBC's Question Time. He had been primed to ask a question but wasn't called. [3]. This might be added. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Done! zzz (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't specify an actual date of appearance, and states he wasn't even called to ask his question in the end anyhow. Not only can it not be accurate chronologically placed in the article, but if done so it appears vague. I don't recall this being included in Masters' or Coffey's books--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

That's probably because they weren't aware of it. And there's nothing "vague" about it. If you can find out exactly when it occurred, that would be useful info. NB, this article is not just about two books you have read! All sourced info should be added if psychologically revealing, as this clearly is. zzz (talk) 00:37, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I think there is and I believe broader consensus than what either you or I personally feel is needed as to the inclusion. Both authors have extensively studied Nilsen's life. I find little importance-psychologically or otherwise-in the fact he happened to sit mute in a BBC panel.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

No, broader consensus is required to remove sourced info. zzz (talk) 00:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

If someone can find out just how he got the invite (trade union? colleagues' political interests?) maybe it could be morphed into a chronologically appropriate sentence?--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

It 'is' hard to make it fit seamlessly. I would include it anyway, but I'll leave it to others to decide. zzz (talk) 00:56, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Thoughts, any one? For or against? Personally, I'm against excluding verifiable, surprising info based on a subjective opinion of what's important. zzz (talk) 01:33, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it does need another reference though, TBH. zzz (talk) 06:29, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Severe copyedit needed

Example: "The trial began with Nilsen being asked by the chief administrator of the court whether he entered a plea of guilty or not guilty in relation to each charge. In response to each charge, Nilsen entered a plea of not guilty. Upon completion of his pleas, the jury was sworn into the courtroom."

This is what happens in all trials. This article is grotesquely overdetailed. EEng (talk) 05:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

In UK defendants sometimes plead guilty. And some appear on video link, and so never enter court (whether they wish to or not). And, of course, some trials don't have any jury. But apart from that, you may be right. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

"If it please m'Lord, I please not guilty." Yes, yes, but you get my point. Christ, we're even told that the "chief administrator of the court" did the asking. Who the fuck cares? Also, I'm not sure the jury is "sworn into the courtroom". EEng (talk) 13:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

"Get into that f***ing courtroom, you lazy bunch of b***ards." But great to see you pleading for a little help to improve the langauge here. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Although

• His attendance record was mediocre, although he frequently volunteered to work overtime.
• He made no efforts to seek sexual contact with any of the peers to whom he was sexually attracted, although he later said he had been fondled by an older youth.
• Although means "despite the fact that".

Are we comfortable that "His attendance record was mediocre, despite the fact that he frequently volunteered to work overtime." and "He made no efforts to seek sexual contact with any of the peers to whom he was sexually attracted, despite the fact that he later said he had been fondled by an older youth." are how these sentences may be read? The second is particularly egregious, I think. --John (talk) 07:26, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Both look absolutely fine to me. These are both surface level behavioural comparisons, although we don't know really know what was going on in his mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

The first one is fine, in my opinion, because it's contrasting a positive with a negative. The second one does need some rewording, but it depends on the sources. "Although" is okay if the sources indicate that Nilsen claimed to have been fondled in order to show that he did have voluntary sexual contact with his peers, because it contrasts his known behaviour with his later claims/excuses, but it wouldn't be okay if Nilsen was claiming sexual assault of some kind. I don't have the Coffey book used as a reference for that statement - can anyone check the context? Marianna251TALK 08:10, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

That's a fair point. I suspect both are simply reported neutrally. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Nonetheless, I do have the book. It harks to his claims in History of a Drowning Boy regarding what he refers to as 'embryonic sex games' he witnessed as a child and early adolescent in which he occasionally saw local boys pin down girls and "feel under their clothes" with or without their consent. He claims that occasionally boys would do the same to younger boys, and that he found this exciting, with it once happening to him. He claims he didn't find the experience unpleasant, "although" (my insertion of the word) he was annoyed because the boy was older and stronger than he..--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

That's really useful, thank you. It looks like Nilsen isn't claiming sexual assault (although I'd say it was, personally, but that's OR), so what are people's thoughts on amending the sentence to read: "He made no efforts to seek sexual contact with any of the peers to whom he was sexually attracted, although he later said he had been fondled by an older youth and did not find the experience unpleasant" for clarity? Marianna251TALK 11:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree. I think that's an improvement. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Great - change made. Marianna251TALK 19:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Good job. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Thanks.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

"Kindly Killer"

A quick Google search for "The Kindly Killer" + "Nilsen" yields "About 13,900 results." And the article itself currently says: "Great Crimes and Trials of the 20th Century S02E15 "The Kindly Killer" (1993), commissioned by the BBC"? Doesn't it belong in the infobox? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Ugh, I hate that nickname (what the hell is kind about killing?) but it does seem to be notable. I've no objection to its inclusion in the infobox. Marianna251TALK 19:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

What's kind? Maybe you need to ask The Good Doctor? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Or MC Hammer, maybe... Marianna251TALK 22:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Nilsen died in York Hospital, coroner reveals

I have pointed this out over and over again, however people read new papers and ignore the actual facts. This makes Wikipedia into a joke when the same person continued to undo edits which are true and fact based, unlike their news paper edits which do not tell the true story. Dennis Nilsen the serial killer died in York Hospital, coroner reveals. this is the link to the report from the coroners court in your. https://www.yorkmix.com/news/serial-killer-dennis-nilsen-died-in-york-hospital-coroner-reveals

If people keep making things up and do not bother asking for information then all that will happen is misimformation will be passed on. The Coroner said "the underlying causes of this were deep vein thrombosis and “abdominal aortic aneurysm rupture repair”. If a person that has never talked to Denis Neson, spent time with him, or even actually knows anything about him is allowed to edit the truth out of wikipedia pages then what is the point of a page thats about a person.

Print the truth please and no more of this rubbish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.2.145 (talk) 14:45, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi IP:86.5.2.145., are trying to make a point about what should be in the article? What exactly is "yorkmix.com"? Do you have any more reliable source(s)? The BBC still says he "died in prison": [4]. He may have been DOA at York Hospital? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

We now seem to have an edit war over competing sources. I'd suggest agreeing what to put here first, to avoid a time-wasting tit-for tat? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Martinevans123 The problem is what the Prison releases that causes the problem. Being a person that lived with, worked around Denis for a number of years I understand how the prison works. To die in custody means you were a prisoner. Also he went to Hospital on the Thursday, had what appears to be a major operation and then go back to prison in a Cat A Van (because he was a Max security cat A prisoner he could only be transported back in one of those vehicals then you would know that it is impossible to transport a prisoner who would have had open abdominal surgery, he would have burst open after just a few miles.

Remember death in custody in a prison would be documented by the doctors at the prison and York hospital would not have been mentioned at all. Knowing the system and this prison and how it works, anybody that is serving a prison sentence, or under arrest but under police guard, or under prison guard is still on custody no matter where they are. If Denis died at 32,000 ft in a plane but under guard it would still read the same, they would say that he died in custody at HMP Full Sutton. I am not trying to cause issues I just want the memory of my friend to be truthful and correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.2.145 (talk) 16:12, 20 July 2018

Whether or not we knew the subject of an article, or were friends with him, or know how prisons work, or even want to be truthful and correct, counts for nothing at Wikipedia. We just follow reliable sources. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Martinevans123's point is the most important point here, but I just wanted to add that even if Nilsen was physically at York Hospital when he died, it's still accurate to say that he died "in prison". This is because York Hospital would have effectively a bit of HMP Full Sutton in it while Nilsen was treated, because Full Sutton would have remained responsible for his incarceration. York Hospital would only be responsible for his medical care. You're clearly aware that anyone in custody remains "in prison" regardless of their physical location, so I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding - it's completely true both to say that he died at York Hospital and that he died in prison. On the surface it looks like a contradiction, but it really isn't. (Also, please remember to sign your talk page posts using ~~~~ or by clicking the signature button underneath the text window.) Marianna251TALK 23:09, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Nationality

A couple of recent edits have changed Nilsen's nationality in the lede from "Scottish" to "British". Personally, I believe his nationality should stay as Scottish because that's how he's primarily described in the sources, plus the general difficulty of replacing Scottish/Irish/Welsh with British in WP:UKNATIONALS, but there's obviously some disagreement so I'm opening this discussion. Thoughts? Marianna251TALK 21:08, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, I tend to agree with Scottish but can see merit either way. Some of the edits made me think British would be a better description due to the fact his crimes were committed in London, but I'd now say Scottish would be more appropriate.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree. He should be described as Scottish, regardless of where the murders took place. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:15, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Stephen Holmes

Dennis Nilsen#1978 claims Holmes' remains were identified in November 2006, the source cited says nothing about remains being identified. It says In my view there is sufficient evidence from which a jury could be satisfied that Stephen was Nilsen's first victim. The factors which satisfy me that this is the case are the admissions made by Dennis Nilsen in police interviews in 1983 and, in particular, last year, the coincidence in timing and location between Stephen's disappearance and Nilsen's account of his first victim and the similarities between Nilsen's description of his first victim and Stephen Holmes' appearance. The apparent lack of any physical evidence was possibly confirmed by Nilsen himself in the Standard, where he says Oddly enough I did point out to police that a positive ID could, perhaps, be confirmed from the teeth and bone fragments unearthed by police at Melrose Avenue. To my surprise they told me that all such evidence had long been disposed of and was no longer available for analysis. Despite the claims made at the end of the dramatisation Des which have since been reported by Metro there doesn't appear to have been any DNA testing carried out, for the reason Nilsen alleges and because if DNA testing had been carried out the CPS wouldn't be relying on admissions from Nilsen and coincidental timing for their decision. I suggest the sentence is changed to something such as Holmes was identified as a victim in November 2006.92.40.188.160 (talk) 18:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Addressed.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:24, 20 September 2020 (UTC)