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{{press|date=August 17, 2009|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html|title=The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008|org=''[[The Daily Telegraph]]''}} |
{{press|date=August 17, 2009|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html|title=The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008|org=''[[The Daily Telegraph]]''}} |
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|1={{cite book|last1=Weldon|first1=Glen|title=The Caped Crusade: Batman and the Rise of Nerd Culture|date=2016|publisher=[[Simon & Schuster]]|isbn=978-1-4767-5669-1|url=https://www.amazon.com/Caped-Crusade-Batman-Rise-Culture/dp/1476756694}} ({{u|TheJoebro64}} has a copy) |
|1={{cite book|last1=Weldon|first1=Glen|title=The Caped Crusade: Batman and the Rise of Nerd Culture|date=2016|publisher=[[Simon & Schuster]]|isbn=978-1-4767-5669-1|url=https://www.amazon.com/Caped-Crusade-Batman-Rise-Culture/dp/1476756694}} ({{u|TheJoebro64}} has a copy) |
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{{Annual readership}} |
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{{afd-merged-from|Alternative versions of Joker|Alternative versions of Joker|21 August 2023}} |
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{{old move|date=8 November 2021|destination=Joker (DC Comics)|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1054796348#Requested move 8 November 2021}} |
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{{Old AfD |date=January 8, 2017|result='''no consensus'''}} |
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== Notable aliases == |
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== [[:Category:Fictional victims of child abuse]] == |
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Is it safe to put this article in the category [[:Category:Fictional victims of child abuse]]? He mentioned how he hated his father in [[The Dark Knight (film)]] and other websites and wikias say his father was a abusive alcoholic father. --[[Special:Contributions/107.19.136.29|107.19.136.29]] ([[User talk:107.19.136.29|talk]]) 18:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC) |
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:No, because it isn't primarily about the film character and it's one of like three origins he gives so it's not even possible to say it's true. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 18:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC) |
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:Hating your father doesn't make you a victim of child abuse... [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 14:07, 13 November 2017 (UTC) |
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==Could someone add this or something similar to Biography? == |
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It is revealed that Bruce Wayne had been exposed to the Dionesium pool being restored to life with no memory of his previous life. While sitting on a park bench (with everything about having been Batman revealed to him by Alfred Pennyworth) he meets a stranger who smiles a lot (It is heavily implied that this is the Joker who has no real memory of who either of them was). While this is all going on Gotham in under siege by an onslaught created by a criminal known as Mister Bloom who Batman had faced before. Thanks to his is talk with the smiling stranger Bruce Wayne realizes he is Batman and forces Alfred Pennyworth to restore to use a machine Batman designed to turn a clone of him into the next Batman. |
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During the Darkseid War the restored Batman acquires the Mobius Chair and asks "What's the Joker's real name?" and the response causes him to say "No that is not possible." He later tells Hal that the chair told him there were three Jokers. Durning DC Universe - Rebirth #1 it is confirmed that there are at least two Jokers: one killing people in Civic City while the other was in transit between Baltimore and Arkham Asylum.", the third Joker, the New 52 incarnation, remains memory-less stranger, identified in early New 52 media as "Alby Shader". From the looks of the artwork, it appears that the three jokers include the original, Jerry Robinson Joker; the Brian Bolland Killing Joke Joker; and the Scott Snyder/Greg Capullo "New 52" Joker. In Dark Knights Metal #1, Batman is revealed to be keeping one of the three Jokers |
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[[User:Rowan North|Rowan North]] ([[User talk:Rowan North|talk]]) 01:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:It's not a biographical article and there is limited space, so until we know wthe long term outcome and impact on the character, it doesn't belong here and can go in the Darkseid war article. The first part is pretty much all about Batman and nothing to do with this character, while again the smiling stranger on the bench, we don't know the long term outcome so it has had no impact on the character yet. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 08:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC) |
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== Other Versions: Earth 2 == |
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Under Other versions there should be a reference to the Earth 2 Joker |
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who appeared as a villian against the Huntress and the Earth-2 Robin. |
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In this version, he had a tooth missing. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2017 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Joker (comics)|answered=y}} |
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can i edit this plz [[User:Fahdsamaha133|Fahdsamaha133]] ([[User talk:Fahdsamaha133|talk]]) 14:33, 28 February 2017 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}} This is not the right page to [[WP:PERM|request]] additional [[WP:RIGHTS|user rights]].<br />If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".<br />Please also cite [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2017 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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I have just modified 23 external links on [[Joker (comics)]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=773176099 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131014125131/http://comicsalliance.com/bizarro-back-issues-the-jokers-solo-series-1975/ to http://comicsalliance.com/bizarro-back-issues-the-jokers-solo-series-1975/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131115064116/http://comicsalliance.com/batman-death-of-the-family-scott-snyder-interview/ to http://comicsalliance.com/batman-death-of-the-family-scott-snyder-interview/ |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.avclub.com/articles/rip-jerry-robinson-creator-of-the-joker%2C66257/ |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-very-familiar-smile-will-be-showing-up-next-week-in-t-1789095982 |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.collegehumor.com/post/6872391/the-25-greatest-comic-book-villains-of-all-time/page%3A5 |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/12/08/why-so-serious-the-many-looks-of-joker |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140221214641/http://comicsalliance.com/batman-kill-joker-philosophy/ to http://comicsalliance.com/batman-kill-joker-philosophy/ |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/10/joker/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140224003034/http://comicsalliance.com/roundtable-review-batman-and-robin-13/ to http://comicsalliance.com/roundtable-review-batman-and-robin-13/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131110160614/http://comicsalliance.com/batman-and-robin-16-annotations/ to http://comicsalliance.com/batman-and-robin-16-annotations/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120204122050/http://franklovece.com/webexclusives.html to http://franklovece.com/webexclusives.html |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/movies/la-et-joker-2008-pg%2C0%2C3865696.photogallery?index=lat-joker8_igaeb3kf20080718123115 |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/movies/la-et-joker-2008-pg%2C0%2C3865696.photogallery?index=la-joker-07-photo |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/movies/la-et-joker-2008-pg%2C0%2C3865696.photogallery?index=la-joker-03-photo |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140223103530/http://comicsalliance.com/mark-hamill-retires-the-joker-arkham-city/ to http://comicsalliance.com/mark-hamill-retires-the-joker-arkham-city/ |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.avclub.com/articles/mask-of-the-phantasm%2C54695/ |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://io9.com/5601910/batman-under-the-red-hood-tosses-the-comics-baggage-to-reveal-the-dark-side-of-the-bat%20legacy |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/10/03/cloudy-2-batman-begins-and-5-more-hits-that-survived-disappointing-debuts/ |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/11/the_5_worst_elseworld_origin_stories_with_superman.php |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131020122546/http://comicsalliance.com/joker-history-batman/ to http://comicsalliance.com/joker-history-batman/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131110080524/http://comicsalliance.com/batman-killing-joke-ending-grant-morrison-alan-moore-brian-bolland-dc/ to http://comicsalliance.com/batman-killing-joke-ending-grant-morrison-alan-moore-brian-bolland-dc/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140223100008/http://comicsalliance.com/bizarro-back-issues-batman-joker-daughter/ to http://comicsalliance.com/bizarro-back-issues-batman-joker-daughter/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140223095904/http://comicsalliance.com/harley-quinn-paul-dini-bruce-timm-dc-ask-chris/ to http://comicsalliance.com/harley-quinn-paul-dini-bruce-timm-dc-ask-chris/ |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 19:59, 31 March 2017 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2017 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Joker (character)|answered=yes}} |
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He needs to be in the Narcissism in fiction category because he believes he's the only man qualified to kill Batman. [[Special:Contributions/73.215.98.136|73.215.98.136]] ([[User talk:73.215.98.136|talk]]) 04:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit protected}} template.<!-- Template:EP --> Is this a widely held literary viewpoint? We cannot include [[WP:NOR|original research or criticism]]. [[User:Altamel|Altamel]] ([[User talk:Altamel|talk]]) 04:54, 23 May 2017 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 17 April 2017 == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: I am calling '''consensus for a move'''. I have moved the previous article at this title to [[Draft:Joker (character)]] to preserve history and in case there is anything to merge. Some people suggested [[The Joker]] as a possible target but this wasn't enough discussion to form a consensus on this issue, so perhaps a future discussion can consider that. — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 10:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC) |
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---- |
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[[:Joker (comics)]] → {{no redirect|Joker (character)}} – per the updated changes at [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics)]] [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 14:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<small>--'''''Relisting.''''' [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 20:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)</small> |
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:<small>This is a contested technical request ([[Special:Permalink/775858952|permalink]]). [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 14:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)</small> |
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*{{ping|Darkwarriorblake}} [[Joker (comics)]] and [[Joker (character)]] both have many text edits and are [[WP:Parallel histories]] and are about the same character. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 14:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Support The Joker''' - everyone calls him "The Joker". [[User:Unreal7|Unreal7]] ([[User talk:Unreal7|talk]]) 18:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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**Not true - He is quite frequently called "Joker", without the ''the''. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 18:41, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*** Should something be done about [[:Category:The Joker]]? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:50, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per the updated MOS, this article should be at [[Joker (character)]]. The material currently at that location is largely a duplication of this article and was created to satisfy [[User:Curly Turkey]] at an [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joker (comics)/archive1|FAC nomination]]. The need for both articles has been [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joker (character)|contested]] and is what [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Changing the standard DAB|originally prompted]] the MOS update. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 18:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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* <s>'''Conditional support'''</s> depending on the focus issues that have been debated ''ad nauseam''—if the article is to be DABbed (character) it must focus on the character ''as a character'' and give no more weight to any media incarnation than is [[WP:DUE]]. The success of a move here ''cannot'' be interpreted as being a consensus that whatever content happens to currently be in the article consititutes ''what the character is''.<br />[[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]], could we please stop spinning this as if I were responsible for there being two articles, or that "duplication" were ever the point of having two articles? I'm far from the only objector (even at FAC), and nobody demanded two articles—that was DWB's decision. Nobody's going to buy the idea that I have the social clout around here to merely "get my way" in these disputes—the issues raised are serious, site-wide, and as-yet unresolved. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ No disrespect meant CT - I was trying to provided a brief history of the DAB/second article for Anthony Appleyard. I name dropped you specifically because you've been so involved with the issue. I didn't want you to be left out of this discussion too. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::It's all my choice, but you're making your support conditional on you getting your way. Again. You did demand two articles, you wanted one for the comic character and one for the character, and everyone has tried to delete the resulting character one because it was pointless and the comic character was the character. The comic character is the character, everything else is derivative and virtually identical and other versions are mentioned wher enecessary and other articles focus on other versions of the character. You've been told this a thousand times and you blatantly ignore it each time then obstruct any progress. But no, it's not about getting your way or your view being the only correct view despite others disagreeing with you. You can't even just support a move here, you have to have to try and position it as resulting in you getting what you want. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::Can we please not do this again? It's a simple move request. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 17:28, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::: You're only making a fool of yourself, [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]]. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::: '''Oppose''' until all issues are sorted. I've changed from "conditional support" due to the requester's comment: "The comic character is the character", which makes it obvious that this will continue to be a problem. This move cannot be allowed to set a bad precedent, which it now seems clear to be part of the intent. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::::The precedent was set by [[Wolverine (character)]] [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 11:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::::: "so the precedent is set"—which precedent is that? That [[WP:COMICS]] gets to unilaterally decide that fictional character articles can give precedence to the comics incarnations of characters? Yes, this article will have to be moved; no, this move will not be allowed to set a problematic precedent. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 11:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Support''', since the article seems to cover his TV and movie incarnations.[[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 02:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)</s> Changed my vote based on new info below. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''OMGWTF''' you guys should lay off the [[Mary Jane (slang)|Mary Jane]] and/or [[crack cocaine]] as applicable. [[Joker (character)]] is a different article, not a different title for this one. You have to get its editors involved in the discussion - maybe you want to [[WP:MERGE|merge]] them? [[User:Lois Lane vs Mary Jane|Lois Lane vs Mary Jane]] ([[User talk:Lois Lane vs Mary Jane|talk]]) 11:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::Oh sheesh, did not see that. Changed my vote. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Oppose, and let's get to work instead'''.</s> '''Don't know / no opinion'''. [[Joker (character)]] already exists! And we cannot move an article over an existing article. So this is quite a dog's breakfast. We could merge the two articles, but dunno about that since that would make a kind of long article. Since there exists the article [[Joker in other media]], which has sections "Live action" and "Animation" and "Video games", wouldn't it make sense to '''move the non-comics material to that article''' (maybe some going to [[Joker (character)]]) and then '''keep this article under its current name'''? [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC) Struck my vote, apparently there are shenangins going on around here, and it's above my pay grade to deal with stuff like this. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Herostratus}}, ignore Lois Lane V Mary Jane, Joker character was created after Joker comics and is essentially a list, the only pertinent information is already here and all the information has been backed up. It's still about the same character, it just needs moving there. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 16:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::Oh OK. Well in that case, I don't know what's going on, and I can't really help you guys. The Joker has a large populated category.... maybe what you guys need to do is form Wikiproject:Joker and work all this stuff out. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::That article was made by someone trying to force their vision and is honestly a giant waste of space. It should simply have been deleted.[[User:*Treker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:*Treker|talk]]) 11:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Note:''' this nomination follows an [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joker (character)|AfD]] in January 2017 (result: trainwreck, due to canvassing). Other related discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Assistance in developing content relating to individual characters across multiple articles]] and [[Talk:Joker (comics)/Archive 5#Proposed redirect]]. It will keep recurring until there is a resolution one way or the other. Personally, even if there was consensus for a move, I wouldn't be happy with moving this article over [[Joker (character)]] and deleting all the revisions there. I think this should probably go back to AfD, hopefully without the canvassing this time. — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 20:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*: Most of the info at [[Joker (character)]] was copy-pasted from this article; there were discussions ongoing about how to fix that, but as the discussions never went anywhere, there'd be no significant loss if [[Joker (character)]] were deleted or overwritten. This has become as big an issue as it is because many [[WP:COMICS]] editors refuse to get over their Project's [[WP:OWN]]ership of fictional characters. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::That's not true. There is no major OWN issue among the majority of the project members, sure there are some but a lot simply disagreed with your opinion as well as decision to defend an utterly superfluous article. It would be nice if you stopped blaming the project for issues with disambiguation and stopped playing the victim so much. You had a lot of people against you from the start because of your condescending attitude which you've clearly not loosened up on, maybe if you had acted in a more mature way more people would have been willing to engage in a discussion which led somewhere, but I'm sure that a lot were scared away becuse of the trainwreck which some editors made the disscussion into.[[User:*Treker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:*Treker|talk]]) 11:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::: [[WP:COMICS]] has longstanding [[WP:OWN]]ership and [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] issues with fictional character articles. Like-minded editors ganging up to "disagree" that WP:COMICS cannot take WP:OWNership of articles means nothing, as Wikipedia is not [[WP:NOTADEMOCRACY]]. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 11:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::::: Prove it. I see no evidence of this being true. You keep claiming this repeatedly but where is the wide acceptance among wikipedians that the project is that way, has there been a disscusion on this on a wider scale or is it just you? I left the earlier debate because of the toxic environment, which you were very much part of from what I saw, so maybe I missed out on the grand consensus among noncomics people that the project is that way.[[User:*Treker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:*Treker|talk]]) 11:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::: CT, I don't have a link, but at some point I got the impression you felt the (comics) DAB ''implied'' ownership, but that it was not ''purposeful'' ownership. I never agreed with that, but I understood the point and took the time to start the discussion to change the MOS. Reviewing that discussion, most editors agreed it needed to be changed (although there was some tweaking in the "how"). I don't see where anyone made comments that could be construed as ownership. Aside from [[User: Darkwarriorblake|DWB]]'s comment about "the comic character is the character", can you link to a diff from another editor showing this ownership viewpoint? Otherwise, you're disparaging an entire project of good faith editors without cause and painting yourself as some lone underdog fighting the unreasonable masses. When you do that, it makes it hard for anyone to work with you. |
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:::: You've shown you're unable to drop the stick on this topic - This is a simple move request to bring the article in line with the new MOS guidelines that '''you participated in updating.''' At that time, you specifically requested that articles on characters from comics be dabbed as (character) over (comics character), although you also suggested "Character X in comics". Arguing against the move now AND bringing up the same old content concerns is disruptive and antagonizing. If you think the content gives undue weight to the comics version of the character, then support the move and slap an Undue weight template on it. If you can't do that, then ''at least'' be constructive here. Even you have to agree that (comics) is not the proper DAB for this article. '''Make an alternate suggestion''' that doesn't involve anything but a page name. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 13:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' For what it's worth I say delete the current Joker (character) "article" since it has nothing of value and move this one there. It becomes simpler disambiguation wise.[[User:*Treker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:*Treker|talk]]) 11:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*Lois says: '''Oppose''', (comics) is not the [[WP:primary topic]] and doesn't belong at the highest level. The primary topic is The Joker in general and his most notable incarnations in whatever media. Mary Jane also points out that the appropriate title for the primary topic is [[The Joker]] as [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and [[WP:Natural disambiguation]]. Lois also says strong '''trainwreck''' because you can't delete articles without tagging them. {{ping|Herostratus}} does this make sense to you? [[User:Lois Lane vs Mary Jane|Lois Lane vs Mary Jane]] ([[User talk:Lois Lane vs Mary Jane|talk]]) 02:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::It'd be really handy if people read the article before commenting. The article covers all incarnations of the joker it just breaks off to other articles to cover them in greater detail than can be accomplished in a single article, and on top of there being completely separate articles for the joker in other media, other versions of the comic joker, and the dark knight joker, there is [[Joker (disambiguation)]] which serves the same function as the current Joker (character) in being a list to joker articles. There is nothing to merge from Joker (character) because it's all already here. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 06:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::{{reply|Darkwarriorblake}} (Lois) You seem to be saying this is a suitable article for the highest level? But actually the highest level should be a [[WP:OVERVIEW|overview]] of the Joker's background and his most notable incarnations, not every.last.one. of them. <small>(Mary Jane) sorry, [[tl;dr]] + full of spoilers</small> [[User:Lois Lane vs Mary Jane|Lois Lane vs Mary Jane]] ([[User talk:Lois Lane vs Mary Jane|talk]]) 06:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::: Shut up, Lois. Nobody's allowed to believe that but me. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. Thought this was all dealt with as per the original discussion. Most of the stuff at the character page is better dealt with at the comics page. If we need to split off a page just for the comics version, then that can remain as Joker (comics). --[[User:Killer Moff|Killer Moff]] ([[User talk:Killer Moff|talk]]) 10:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::No, Joker (comics) shouldn't be anything other than a DAB because of [[Joker (comic book)]], [[Joker (graphic novel)]], and [[Joker (comic strip)]]. I think [[Joker (comic character)]] could be a workable split from a [[Joker (character)]] article, though. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' in the sense that [[Joker (character)]] is a better title for the article, and there doesn't need to be a separate article for iterations of Joker (character) in comics specifically. Merge necessary info into the broader article and be done with it.--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 18:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Move to The Joker''' (merging as necessary). No need to have two articles on the same character. Regarding The Joker vs Joker (character), [[WP:THE]] applies. Note that while showing a clear majority usage of a term with the definite article is typically the key requirement for WP:THE, the convention has this bit {{tq|In general, a definite ("the") or indefinite ("a"/"an") article should be included at the beginning of the title of a Wikipedia article only if at least one of the following conditions is met: 1. If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article}}. That clearly applies in this case, combined with Naturalness from [[WP:CRITERIA]] implies that the article should be at [[The Joker]]. [[User:PaleAqua|<span style="color:#e01582">PaleAqua</span>]] ([[User talk:PaleAqua|talk]]) 04:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC) |
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---- |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2017 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Joker (character)|answered=yes}} |
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When you Google search "Joker", it shows that he is a "fictional superhero", but he is a fictional villain... [[Special:Contributions/96.233.152.9|96.233.152.9]] ([[User talk:96.233.152.9|talk]]) 16:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC) |
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:This isn't anything to do with the article, it's Google.[[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 16:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC) |
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== Jack Napier == |
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Is it something important to notice that in the 1989 movie the Joker's full name is finally mentioned, "Jack Napier"? I read somewhere that they have just added a random name for the character (it is mentioned only once in the whole movie I think, and just in this movie), but it is also mentioned in this article that his first name was Jack, perhaps it's not just that random. [[User:Marcusbacus|Marcusbacus]] ([[User talk:Marcusbacus|talk]]) 01:53, 12 June 2017 (UTC) |
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:The full name "Jack Napier" has been thrown around enough that it ought to be included in the article. -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 17:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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I have just modified 8 external links on [[Joker (character)]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=786351836 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131024084644/http://www.gamesradar.com/top-100-villains-video-games/ to http://www.gamesradar.com/top-100-villains-video-games/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131228193800/http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-25-best-joker-moments-ever-part-i-29607.html to http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-25-best-joker-moments-ever-part-i-29607.html |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131228193827/http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-ii-29791.html to http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-ii-29791.html |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130520090100/http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-iii-30505.html to http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-iii-30505.html |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.destructoid.com/joker-puts-a-smile-on-that-face-in-newest-injustice-2-gameplay-trailer-433532.phtml |
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/lego-batman-movie-cast-meet-voices-behind-animated-character-971026/item/lego-batman-movie-zach-galifianakis-joker-971034 |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131025044620/http://whatculture.com/comics/chemicals-chaos-jokers-many-bizarre-origins.php to http://whatculture.com/comics/chemicals-chaos-jokers-many-bizarre-origins.php |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131014163841/http://www.comicsbulletin.com/columns/289/top-10-weapons-in-comics/ to http://www.comicsbulletin.com/columns/289/top-10-weapons-in-comics/ |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 22:36, 18 June 2017 (UTC) |
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== Joker powers == |
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I don't know what happened my previous discussion about this issue, but I am brining it back. My argument is that in the [[Joker_(character)#Skills_and_equipment|skills and equipment section]] of the page, in the last paragraph it talks about Joker being a skilled melee fighter. In an article by [[Screen Rant]], it lists the many powers of the Joker. In it says that he's immune to poison/toxins. A quote of one the comics writers explaining his power, "In the story arc ''The Clown at Midnight'' (Batman #663), writer [[Grant Morrison]] briefly explains why the Joker is immune not only to his toxins but to poison in general: “An avid consumer of his own chemical experiments, the Joker’s immunity to poison concoctions that might kill another man in an instant has been developed over years of dedicated abuse.” In other words, the Joker underwent a drastic, bizarre form of immunotherapy. He explained why the Joker is immune to toxins/poison and proves he does have it. This is his power, no different than [[Harley Quinn]].[[User:Xtremeroller|Xtremeroller]] ([[User talk:Xtremeroller|talk]]) 00:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC) |
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http://screenrant.com/joker-superpowers-abilities-dc-comics-batman-villain/ |
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:[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Comics#Joker.27s_notable_powers_in_infobox|Existing discussion, please continue any responses there]] [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:03, 10 July 2017 (UTC) |
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==Three Jokers== |
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The events of [[DC Rebirth]] reveal that within DC Comics current continuity, there are three separate Jokers: |
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1. The Golden Age Joker - The Super-Sane Master Criminal |
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2. The Silver Age Joker - The Crazy Prankster |
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3. The New 52 Joker - The Utter Sociopath. |
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Now, The New 52 Joker has yet to appear in DC Rebirth, having been left amnesiac and sane following his revival in ''Batman'' #50. This Joker's name HAS been given, back in . ''Batman: White Knight'' will revelations of the other two Jokers as Jack Napier, leaving the third unnamed. |
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[[User:Jerome Valeska Joker|Jerome Valeska Joker]] ([[User talk:Jerome Valeska Joker|talk]]) 20:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC) |
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=="April 25, 1940"== |
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First of all, WikiProject Comics MOS is to give the cover date, not the publication date. We can say something like "(cover-dated Spring 1940, published April 25, 1940)" — but there doesn't appear to be any [[WP:RS]] cite for that April 25 date. MTV, which is not necessarily the most RS for Golden Age of Comic Books history, is the only mainstream source claiming this, which makes it [[WP:FRINGE]] that appears to have then showed up in blogs, Pinterest posts and other non-RS. |
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I've looked in several books, including DC Comics' own ''Sixty Years of the World's Favorite Superheroes'', Mike Benton's ''The Comic Book in America'', Gerard Jones ''Men of Tomorrow'' and N.C. Christopher Couch's Jerry Robinson biography, and not one of them — nor the Grand Comics Database, which usually carries these things — makes any mention of that date whatsoever. It may well be correct — but where did it originate? When authoritative books, including DC's own official one, don't give that date and it appears in one place only, that's a red flag. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 14:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:Comics at that time didn't have release dates. They just got displayed when they arrived at newsstands. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 15:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::[http://goldenagecomics.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/batman1ad.jpg Well what do you know...] [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 15:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:If we have the exact date I don't see the problem with using it, in fact the exact date is there because a reviewer took issue with it last time I took the article to FA. I also don't see the problem with using Cracked for what is a non-controversial purpose. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::An advertising flyer isn't necessarily evidence that it came out on that date — if you go to ''[[Detective Comics]]'', you'll see an ad saying the first issue would be out with a December 1936 cover date (rather than the eventual March 1937). This is one reason WikiProject Comics doesn't allow comics-company solicitations to be used as reference sources. About the only thing we could use is a Copyright Office filing, as I believe the project has cited in the past. |
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::As for ''Cracked'', that was the subject of a discussion sometime back, and among other things, it's [[WP:USERGENERATED]]. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 22:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:::But at the same time, there is a source saying April 25, 1940 and a flyer saying April 25, 1940, and no sources saying that either source is incorrect. I also feel that maybe we should have had this discussion before removing the sources/information, since you removing the Cracked reference means I no longer know what is sourced and what isn't. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 22:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::::We're old colleagues and you're responsible and show good judgment and I wouldn't revert you though I think in this case it would be a mistake to re-add it, given that of all the countless histories of comics, no one -- and Gerard Jones (''Men of Tomorrow'') would have had access to that same flyer -- appears to have given that date except MTV and non-RS sites. That's a red flag to me, and since there's [[WP:NODEADLINE]] and it's not critically vital information to understand the subject, I'm hoping you're amenable to working with me to research it and see if we can concretely find a way to say this as fact. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 22:59, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:::::I'll try to find an alternative to the Cracked article, but I do trust the April 25 date, and with the flyer Argento found, I think that it's kind of on the opposing side to prove otherwise. If you know how to search copyright databases though, please do. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 23:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::::::Well, no, because you're asking me to prove a negative: "Prove it wasn't published on April 25, 1940." The flyer is a solicitation, which WPC guidelines disallow as a reference source. And since MTV is the only place claiming this, that strikes me as [[WP:FRINGE]]. I'm curious why the fact that this date appears in no reputable history of comics — no book, not even from DC itself — that this isn't of concern. DC certainly knows this flyer exists — and yet DC itself doesn't give that date. Maybe we'll need to RfC this?--[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 23:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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:::::::Is there an easily accessible copyright database? [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 23:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::::::::I've been unable to find one. It's how the pub date for Action #1 was verified, but it's more widely accessible because it was relevant to copyright suits surrounding Superman. No one ever disputed Joker's copyright. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
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::[http://rsvpmagazine.ie/jared-leto-as-the-joker-will-send-shivers-down-your-spine/ I've] [https://www.civilized.life/articles/bob-kane-comic-books/ found] [https://www.cnet.com/news/official-look-at-jared-leto-as-the-joker-from-the-suicide-squad/ a] [https://www.geek.com/comics/the-jokers-birthday-1710164/ few] [http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/suicide-squad/news/a644039/suicide-squad-director-marks-the-jokers-birthday-with-terrifying-new-photo-of-jared-leto/ other] [http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/batman-arkham-knight-secret-spilled-the-beans-on-arkham-vr-months-ago/ sources], [http://berkeleyplaceblog.com/2013/04/25/happy-birthday-joker/ although] [https://www.thetoptens.com/most-overrated-villains/ some] of them are of debatable reliability. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2018 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Joker (character)|answered=yes}} |
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Please add him in Narcissism in Fiction. [[Special:Contributions/2601:8C:4500:4211:80:2AFB:7636:37AE|2601:8C:4500:4211:80:2AFB:7636:37AE]] ([[User talk:2601:8C:4500:4211:80:2AFB:7636:37AE|talk]]) 03:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EP --> It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Thank you, [[User:Hiàn|Hiàn]] ([[User talk:Hiàn|talk]]) 03:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC) |
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==[[Joker (Batman)]]== |
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Why isn't this article titled with (Batman) given there are other Jokers at the dab page? [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 18:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:Not least [[Joker (comic strip)]], and others nothing to do with Batman. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 10:39, 4 February 2018 (UTC) |
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::After long debates both in this page's archives and at other locations, the consensus was that this page is the primary topic for Joker (character). You can always open a new discussion, but I strongly suggest having a strong (new) argument paired with it. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 13:12, 5 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Argento Surfer}} I looked in archives. You are correct. But it seems some editors were not aware that [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]] guideline does not allow any parenthetically disambiguated term, e.g. (film) (song) etc., to have a [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. Once a term is disambiguated it must be clear against other topics. As it stands Joker (character) seems to be against the [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]] guideline. Further it seems the vanilla (character) is mainly for use when the series is eponymous with the character, or more rarely, where there is more than one series/franchise for an overlapping character. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 10:16, 6 February 2018 (UTC) |
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::::Like I said, you're welcome to open a new discussion. There were a lot of people who were not happy about it being parked at (character). [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 13:46, 6 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::The Joker DC Comics character is the primary topic. The others are nowhere near as notable, and most don't even have articles. It's not unreasonable to expect someone searching for the Joker to be coming here. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 14:35, 6 February 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::Thanks Argento, may well do. Darkwarrior actually some do have articles, an guideline states no [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] for parenthetically dabbed articles. There is no such thing as primary (footballer) primary (character) primary (whatever); the guideline does not allow that. Plus in this case [[WP:NCVGDAB]] #7 specifically advises using the series name as a disambiguator. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 17:40, 6 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::I agree that we should move this article to just [[Joker]]. It's ''overwhelmingly'' the primary topic (unlike something like [[Dream (comics)]] or [[Penguin (character)]]). [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 20:59, 6 February 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::It would make more sense to move [[Joker (playing card)]] as primary topic than this one; the later is named after the former, after all. [[Joker (character)]] has problems with [[WP:PRECISION]] for not being totally unambiguous, but at least it follows the conventions of the [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics)]] guideline at [[WP:NCCDAB]]. [[User:Diego Moya|Diego]] ([[User talk:Diego Moya|talk]]) 09:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::My preference was always [[Joker (comics character)]], since this article is about the comic character specifically. Joker (Batman) is too imprecise, since there are about 14 different comics, tv series, and films sharing that exact title ''and'' because ''Batman'' isn't the only comic book which features the Joker. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 13:58, 7 February 2018 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 5 April 2018 == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''not moved'''. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Page mover closure|closed by page mover]])</small> [[User:GeoffreyT2000|GeoffreyT2000]] ([[User talk:GeoffreyT2000|talk]]) 00:43, 13 April 2018 (UTC) |
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---- |
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[[:Joker (character)]] → {{no redirect|The Joker}} – Per [[WP:THE]], he is recognized as "The Joker" in many sources. In the case of prevailing common use, "The" can be used in titles. I'd call this prevailing use, and it is also a more [[WP:NATURAL]] name. <sub><small>[[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] ([[User Talk:Zxcvbnm|TALK]])</small></sub> 17:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*Previous request to move to this title at [[Talk:Joker (character)/Archive 4#Requested move]]. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 18:06, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*:Actually, more recent than that. There was an RM discussion last year as seen [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Joker_(character)&oldid=834431024#Requested_move_17_April_2017 here]. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) <sup>([[Template:Reply to|ping me]])</sup> 18:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*::I linked the discussion that was explicitly about moving to the title "The Joker." There have been other subsequent discussions, as you noted. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 20:22, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' The playing card is also often referred to with "The" [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 19:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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**As was mentioned by [[User:ONR]], the card is called "Joker". As in, "a Joker card", not "The Joker". If what you are saying is true, it would be located at [[The Joker (playing card)]].<sub><small>[[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] ([[User Talk:Zxcvbnm|TALK]])</small></sub> 19:35, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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***[[Joker (playing card)]] uses the phrase "the joker" 22 times. It uses "a joker" 3 times. Also, using the current name of a Wikipedia article as evidence for its common name is pretty odd coming from the guy proposing another article be renamed... [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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**** '''Comment''' (not actually !voting): this is basic grammar—one would also say "a Joker graphic novel" or "a Joker scheme". [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 21:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Support move.''' The playing card is ''not'' often referred to as "The Joker" (as a proper noun including the "the"), so there is no conflict there. '''[[User:Old Naval Rooftops|<span style="color:#002244;background:#FFFFFF">ONR</span>]]''' [[User:ONR/t|<span style="color:#002244;background:#FFFFFF">(talk)</span>]] 19:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per Argento Surfer. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 19:08, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per previous discussions. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - As iconic as the character is, they are named after a playing card that is arguably just as applicable. Plus, getting this article from [[Joker (comics)]] to [[Joker (character)]] came from a lengthy discussion and DAB alterations in itself. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 22:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose and suggest [[The Joker (DC Comics)]]''' - As for [[WP:THE]] issue, I can't see this character as being handled any different than [[The Doctor (Doctor Who)]], with the "The" being prevailing common use. I just do not see this character being the primary topic, though, so disambiguation is needed between both other titles and also other characters named "The Joker". For that, I refer to [[WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers]] which suggests using the publisher for disambiguation. [[The Joker (character)]] and [[Joker (character)]] are [[WP:INCDAB|incomplete disambiguation]] and should be redirected to the DAB page ([[Joker#Fictional characters]]) once all the incoming links are adjusted to point to the article's new title. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 03:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' but argee with Netoholic's suggestion to move to [[The Joker (DC Comics)]]. It would match other article titles such as [[Captain Marvel (DC Comics)]]. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 15:57, 7 April 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose move to [[The Joker (DC Comics)]]''' - Per [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]]. [[Captain Marvel (DC Comics)]] is likely to be confused with the equally applicable Marvel Universe characters of the same name. There were extensive discussions regarding naming conventions that led to this article being disambiguated as ''(Character)''. That is generally the proper disambiguation, especially when there is a DC comic book series called ''The Joker'', a DC graphic novel called ''Joker'', an upcoming film adaptation, an unrelated [[Joker (comic strip)|comic strip]], and no character from other publishers called The Joker that's as applicable or easy to be confused with the Batman villain. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 17:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''original move request and also suggestion to move to [[The Joker (DC Comics)]]. Wikipedia MOS for article titles is very clear that the definite article "The" is not used: [[Hulk (comics)]], [[Flash (comics)]], [[Spirit (comics)]], etc. all follow MOS. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 22:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. I think "[[The Joker]]" should continue to redirect here, but the title should remain the same. I think, per [[WP:THE#Other uses]], "the" should be included only when it is ''always'' included with virtually no exceptions. This is the case with [[The Doctor (Doctor Who)]], but even just quickly googling "Joker", you'll find a few cases where "the" is omitted": [https://www.google.com/search?q=joker&tbm=nws]. –[[User:IagoQnsi|<span style="color:#a00;">Iago</span><span style="color:#f50;">Qnsi</span>]] ([[User talk:IagoQnsi|{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}]]) 01:11, 10 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== Requested move 14 April 2018 == |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.'' |
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'''Not moved'''. There is a clear consensus against the proposed move. [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold">'''''bd2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:07, 25 April 2018 (UTC) |
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[[:Joker (character)]] → {{no redirect|Joker (DC Comics)}} – The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named "(The) Joker" listed at [[Joker#Fictional characters]]. [[WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers]] directs us to use the publisher as the disambiguation when there are multiple characters that use the same name. After fixing links, [[Joker (character)]] and [[The Joker (character)]] should redirect to the disambig page section. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' to avoid disambiguation with publications called "Joker" from DC Comics. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 15:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:* I'm sure that consideration is already built into the [[WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers]] naming guideline. Publications are named with (comic book). -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::Those guidelines were revised about a year ago specifically because of all the different Joker articles. The overwhelming consensus through multiple move requests has been (character). We just closed another one a few days ago. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 16:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::: The recent RM was about the inclusion of "The" to the title. This is different. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 16:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::::You suggested this DAB in the discussion above. It was specifically supported by one and opposed by two. Other comments not directly addressing your suggestion supported the current location. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 18:29, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::::: That suggestion included the "The". It is a different recommendation than the one here. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 11:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. "The Joker (DC Comics)" could refer to [[The Joker (comic book)|the comic book about the character]], the graphic novel ''[[Joker (graphic novel)|Joker]]'', the upcoming movie, etc. This isn't something like [[Shade, the Changing Man (Vertigo)]], which only refers to the 1990—1996 comic book. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 15:52, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''': ambiguous as to what the article content would be (a comic book called ''Joker''?), and this Joker (character) is clearly [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 21:56, 14 April 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''', per [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. There may be other characters called "The Joker," but this one is the best known and most significant. --[[User:Katolophyromai|Katolophyromai]] ([[User talk:Katolophyromai|talk]]) 01:22, 15 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:* {{ping|Katolophyromai|Curly Turkey}} [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] only applies to undisambiguated titles like [[Joker]] - not to articles which are disambiguated like this one. Once it is decided that an article is to be disambiguated, then we must follow [[WP:INCDAB]] and ensure that the disambiguation doesn't itself remain ambiguous. In this case, there are multiple characters that exist named "Joker", so we must ensure the disambiguation used is clearly referencing the subject. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 11:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Netoholic}} In that case, you should be trying to move the page to "[[Joker (Batman villian)]]" rather than "[[Joker (DC Comics)]]" since, as others have pointed out above, that title could also refer to various DC comic books entitled ''Joker''. --[[User:Katolophyromai|Katolophyromai]] ([[User talk:Katolophyromai|talk]]) 12:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::: [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]]: (a) I don't see where [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] says what you're saying; (b) there is no other [[Joker (character)]] article to DAB from—we need further disambiguation ''only'' when there are multiple articles in conflict. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 21:09, 15 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - For the precise reasons I opposed this when it was first suggested in the move discussion directly above this one: "''There were extensive discussions regarding naming conventions that led to this article being disambiguated as (Character). That is generally the proper disambiguation, especially when there is a DC comic book series called The Joker, a DC graphic novel called Joker, an upcoming film adaptation, an unrelated comic strip, and no character from other publishers called The Joker that's as applicable or easy to be confused with the Batman villain.''." '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 17:49, 16 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' a move away from the current title per [[WP:INCDAB]]. [[Joker (character)]] is clearly ambiguous per the guideline. This request won't go through, but it is valid. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 01:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC) |
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: {{re|Dekimasu}} There is nothing ambiguous about [[Joker (character)]], which is actually the proper title per [[WP:NCCDAB]], seeing as he is the only applicable comics character called "The Joker"... Or character in general. This is also the primary page about the character, as [[Joker in other media]] and [[Alternative versions of Joker]] both branch off of this article. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 19:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::There are over 15 other characters called Joker shown at [[Joker]]. Therefore, the current title fails [[WP:PRECISION]], the directive that "titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article." [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 20:14, 20 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::: None of whom are applicable. Nearly all of them are minor characters who don't even have their own articles or are adaptations of this character (which this is the hub article for). As it stands, anyone searching for ''Joker (character)'' is almost certainly looking for the Batman villain. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 21:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::::None of the characters I referred to is an adaptation of this character. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 21:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::: I already made this point above, [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]: there isn't actually another article on a character named "Joker" (except for th esub-article [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]]), and WP does not do preemptive disambiguations. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 21:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::::There is inconsistency in the guidelines, and I'm not sure why this hasn't been closed already. However, the top of [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation]] states, "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts that arise when a potential article title is ambiguous, most often because it refers to more than one subject covered by Wikipedia, either as the main topic of an article, ''or as a subtopic covered by an article in addition to the article's main topic''" (emphasis mine). Further, [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic when a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name]] states, "When a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name... the normal rules for determining the primary topic still apply. The existing article does not automatically become the primary topic." This does not necessarily indicate that there can be no primary topic for [[Joker (character)]] or that this article is not the primary topic, but it is in this light that [[WP:INCDAB]] ("When a more specific title is still ambiguous, but not enough so to call for double disambiguation, it should redirect back to the main disambiguation page (or a section of it)") can be read to indicate that we should not use [[Joker (character)]]. The formulation of the title is "Title (disambiguator)"; the disambiguator is not a part of the title itself, so if there is no primary topic for [[Joker]], there is also ipso facto no primary topic for [[Joker (ambiguous disambiguator)]]. Most likely, [[Joker (character)]] could also be treated under [[WP:DDAB]] and made its own disambiguation page. The only indication that we should not disambiguate this way of which I am aware is the one currently being discussed at [[Talk:One Kiss (song)]]: an RfC result about [[WP:DABMENTION]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&oldid=724776967#RfC:_Artist_name_as_disambiguation_regarding_non-notable_song_titles here]. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 11:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. In this case we're stuck choosing between imperfect disambiguators. However, I think this is the best bet. I understand {{u|Dekimasu}}'s issue about other characters above, but I don't see that any have their own articles, which mitigates the concern somewhat. The proposed title would conflict with things like [[Joker (graphic novel)]] and [[The Joker (comic book)]] (which themselves have non-optimal disambiguators).--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 14:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== Requested move 25 April 2018 == |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''not moved'''. There is not a consensus to move at this time, and no firm consensus in this discussion as to whether or not this article is about the character as a whole or the comics character, and many opposing did not give specific reasons beyond exasperation. That being said, on the oppose side arguments from concision are relatively strong (they are part of the naming criteria), and as Amakuru pointed out, there is not a consensus as to whether or not the primary topic can have an incomplete disambiguator. As it stands, there is enough opposition to a move that has basis in policy for this to close as not moved. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 15:50, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Post close comments:''' since two issues were raised on my talk, I'll address them in more detail here. First re: the question on whether this article is about the character: I mentioned it in my close because there was enough discussion about it from my reading that it warranted a mention, but not clear answer in ''this particular discussion about the title of the page''. If there is a pre-existing consensus on it that addresses what should be the content of this page, this RM does not change that, and should not be interpreted as such.{{pb}}Second on what '''''not moved''''' means. In RMs, this is the close when the consensus is against the title. ''No consensus to move'' is another close that is sometimes used, even if not mentioned in RMCI, and I typically us it when the discussion could go either ''no consensus'' or ''not moved'' as a way to split the baby.{{pb}}In this case I'll expand a bit and point out that there is a consensus ''against moving the article at this time'' and that while consensus can change, it would be inadvisable to start a new RM anytime soon. I would recommend at least 3 months cooling off rather than moving into a new title discussion.{{pb}}Hopefully this addresses all of the concerns raised. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 00:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC) |
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[[:Joker (character)]] → {{no redirect|Joker (DC Comics character)}} – The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named "(The) Joker" listed at [[Joker#Fictional characters]]. [[WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers]] directs us to use the publisher as the disambiguation when there are multiple characters that use the same name. Adding "character" should address concerns from the last RM that (DC Comics) could refer to publications. After fixing links, [[Joker (character)]] and [[The Joker (character)]] should redirect to the disambig page section. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC) <small>--'''''Relisting.''''' — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 22:10, 2 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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{{move review talk|date=27 April 2018|result=Relisted}} |
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{{collapse top|Previous close, before the above move review and relisting}} |
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The result of the move request was: '''RESULT:''' Not Moved. There was a discussion some days ago, all users opposed it and it was closed. The user that started that discussion started this other one, the very same day that one was closed, and with the exact same rationale. All opposes here as well. [[WP:SNOW]]. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 13:58, 27 April 2018 (UTC) |
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{{collapse bottom}} |
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* '''Oppose'''—as already shown in the last RfC, there is no other [[Joker (character)]] article to DAB from. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 21:07, 25 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:* [[:Joker (character)]] is ambiguous because it could also refer to [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] and because that title could also be used as redirect to any other Joker characters covered in lists or sections of other articles. Per [[WP:INCDAB]], we need to use a more clear disambiguation and then point [[:Joker (character)]] to the disambiguation page. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 04:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:** [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a subarticle of this one, and the other [[Joker (character)]] articles ''don't exist''. Wikipedia does not disambiguate from nonexistent articles. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 04:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:*** [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a film article, not a comics article and not a "subarticle" (whatever that is). The very first line of [[WP:Disambiguation]] states that we disambiguate "more than one subject '''covered''' by Wikipedia, either as the main topic of an article, or as a subtopic". Topics are "covered" on Wikipedia even if they are in lists or in sections of other articles - being a standalone article is not a requirement. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:**** [[Joker (character)]] is a ''character'' article, not a ''comics'' article—please don't make us go around in these circle again—and [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a ''character'' article that is a subarticle of the ''character''{{'}}s representation in a film. Even if your argument weren't utter unsemantic gibberish, [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a DC Comics character, and therefore [[Joker (DC Comics character)]] would not disambiguate the two articles. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 06:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*Is there not a rule against just repeatedly opening move discussions? [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 21:49, 25 April 2018 (UTC) |
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**If nothing else, it would be decent to notify everyone who participated in the other two move discussions this month, since this is effectively the same discussion in search of a different outcome. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 15:17, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose:''' For the reasons stated by other users and myself in the first two proposals. And even if there were articles on the other Jokers, those are minor characters who are nowhere near as pertinent as this character (hence why they don't have articles to begin with). This would still be the primary topic, as anyone searching for ''Joker (character)'' is almost definitely looking for the Batman villain. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 15:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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** '''Also:''' Can we knock it off with the persistent move proposals? When you reach the third in a row, it's pretty damn clear where the consensus stands. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 15:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*** '''comment''' the April 5 move is unrelated (a "The" issue, instead of a disambiguator name), so it isn't relevant. -- [[Special:Contributions/70.51.203.56|70.51.203.56]] ([[User talk:70.51.203.56|talk]]) 05:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Relisting comment''' - as I mentioned in the move review at [[WP:MRV]], I've relisted this because it was not a good contender for a snow close. The proposal was different, it hadn't run for long enough, and then the move review itself became confused by people apparently voting "oppose" to the RM itself. This will go for seven more days, after which a close and possible moratorium can be applied. {{ping|Zxcvbnm}} {{ping|Dekimasu}} {{ping|Erik}} {{ping|Argento Surfer}} {{ping|Curly Turkey}} {{ping|Old Naval Rooftops}} {{ping|Darkwarriorblake}} {{ping|Rreagan007}} {{ping|Tenebrae}} {{ping|IagoQnsi}} {{ping|TheJoebro64}} {{ping|Katolophyromai}} {{ping|Cuchullain}} {{ping|Paine Ellsworth}} {{ping|SmokeyJoe}} you were all pinged or participated in the move review, so please comment and !vote support or oppose on this RM and we can lay this to rest once and for all. Thanks — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 22:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*: This is absurd—the rationale itself was copypasted from the previous MR: "The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named '(The) Joker' ..." [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:24, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::Yes, but the rationale also includes {{tq|Adding "character" should address concerns from the last RM that (DC Comics) could refer to publications.}} as well, and the majority of opposes in the last RM were precisely about that concern, so although it may seem tedious to keep opening new discussions, the assertion that it's identical to the last one is not the case. Absurd or not, let's just see this one out and put the matter to bed once and for all. Thanks — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 22:31, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::: Thanks, just awesome—let's teach editors that if they make the same request ''just enough times'', they can get the results they want. They need only one consensus ''for'' to overturn any number of consensuses ''against'' ... [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 09:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''', this has been discussed before, and the consensus is to keep the article here. As for the article about an adaptation of the Joker in other media, it's still the same character. See [[Wikipedia:Content forking]]. The second article exists only because it was too long to be included here, not because it is a different and unrelated character (the way the Joker is a different character than, for example, Luke Skywalker) [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 22:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''FFS Oppose''', thanks for wasting more time {{ping|Amakuru}}. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 22:36, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*{{small|sigh...}} '''Oppose'''. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 22:37, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose move (again)''', and '''support some form of moratorium''' for move proposals of this page. These discussions are getting out of hand, and the only way to stop them is to put a moratorium in place. '''[[User:Old Naval Rooftops|<span style="color:#002244;background:#FFFFFF">ONR</span>]]''' [[User:ONR/t|<span style="color:#002244;background:#FFFFFF">(talk)</span>]] 22:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' in principle. It is incorrect to say that [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a "subarticle" of [[Joker (character)]]. It certainly is an offshoot and whatnot, but in terms of organizing topics on Wikipedia, both topics are characters. Therefore "Joker (character)" is ambiguous as to whether or not it refers to the character as a whole or to the one film's character. We are not dealing with any primary topics here, so all secondary topics should be disambiguated from ''each other''. But I know that we're all tired of discussing this, and that the disambiguation page defines all the topics well enough anyway. Perhaps it would help to have standalone articles for the 1966 TV series character as well as the 1989 film character (if enough coverage exists for either), to make the ambiguity more obvious (and further justify addressing it) and at the same time have new article scopes that open new spaces distinct from the very heavy comic book history. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) <sup>([[Template:Reply to|ping me]])</sup> 23:07, 2 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*: It's ''self evident'' that an article on a ''particular manifestion'' of a character is a subarticle of the character's base article. Regardless, most people would assume there weren't even an article on that version of the character, and editors have questioned whether such a gratuitous article should even exist. Anyone looking for such an article would not be looking for it at [[Joker (character)]], as the base fictional character ''very obviosuly'' takes precedence or any incarnation of said character. Let's not make a joke of Wikipedia with this nonsense. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 08:23, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::It is only obvious to those who are familiar with the Batman comics and films. The point is, when we strip away any foreknowledge and any add-on descriptions, we have two article titles, "Joker (character)" and "Joker (The Dark Knight)". Both articles are character articles. It is irrelevant whether or not these are connected because we cannot presume knowledge of that connection. Therefore we should get more specific than just "character" in the former. I get that it is obvious and derivative for those who are familiar, but that should not be assumed for all readers. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) <sup>([[Template:Reply to|ping me]])</sup> 13:08, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::: "''It is only obvious to those who are familiar with the Batman comics and film.''" - Perhaps if we only go by the names of the disambiguations alone. But given that the second sentence to the lead of [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] makes it clear that it's an adaptation of the comics character, I respectfully stand by my point that it's a subarticle of [[Joker (character)]]. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 02:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::::Yes, that is the point, to go by the disambiguation terms alone. Here is a more general example of what I mean. We have a notable TV show and a notable episode of the same name from that show, and neither are primary topics. Ignoring the TV naming conventions we do have, if one of these articles is under "Foo (TV)", then it is not clear whether or not the article is for the TV show or the episode, even if the episode is a "subarticle" of the TV show. I do get the Joker connection, but it is a big world with not everyone present (and future) being familiar with any of these topics. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) <sup>([[Template:Reply to|ping me]])</sup> 11:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::: [[User:Erik|Erik]]: That makes no sense—(a) a reader not looking for the Dark Knight-specific version of the character will ''of course'' default to the (character) article (no specific knowledge is needed to do what is so obvious); and (b) the Dark Knight-specific version of the character remains a DC Comics licenced property, so the proposed DAB fails by your own "Both articles are character articles" argument, as both articles are "DC Comics character" articles. If [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is causing any sort of problem, why not move ''that'' article instead? This one's the unproblematic one. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 04:07, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::::See the "nonsense" that makes "no sense" that I said to {{ul|Darkknight2149}} above. AGF. 11:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*::::: Your response to DK addresses none of what I just wrote. Did you just ignore it? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' in principle, for my own part, per my comments in the last request. However, I also oppose opening new discussions when it's apparent they won't gain consensus. If it's clear that the community disagrees, move on and do something else for a while. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 00:16, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Support.''' Present title has "incomplete disambiguation" and should be [[:Template:R from incomplete disambiguation|so categorized]] as a [[WP:REDIRECT|redirect]] to the [[Joker#Fictional characters|dab page]] in accord with the [[WP:INCDAB|disambiguation guideline]]. The proposed title addresses the concerns of much of the opposition in previous RMs, so it is hoped that the closer will ignore the opposers in this debate who think it's tedious to continue to garner consensus for the highest and best title and qualifier for this article, and who have no policy- nor guideline-based rationale. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>02:37, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:* What does this comment even mean? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 08:14, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::* Sapōto. サポート。 {{p}} '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>09:14, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::* The "comment" part of the comment. It doesn't convey a meaning. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 09:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::* Please be more specific. Which parts don't you understand? '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>09:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::* Seriously, the entire comment. I cannot make heads or tails of what you're trying to express. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 09:30, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::* The first part of my comment is my rationale, the reason I give for my support of this proposal. The present page title sports a qualifier that is clearly "incomplete" as qualifiers go, and the editing guideline I cited shows us what to do about incomplete qualifiers. The second part of my comment is just a hopeful note to the admin who closes this debate. Hope this helps''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>09:40, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::: (a) How is it incomplete? Joker is a character, and there is no other article on a character named "Joker" that is not a subarticle of this one. (b) This doesn't help—you muttered something about guidelines and policies, and seem to be saying that opposers are opposing against policy (when we've been citing policy), and you made some comment "tedious to continue to garner consensus for the highest and best title and qualifier for this article" that I still find impossible to untangle. On the policy/guidline front, the guidelines are clear that DABs are to be kept maximally abstract, and we are not to DAB from non-existent articles. (character) is exactly what the guidelines call for; (DC Comics character) doesn't appear to solve any problem, especially given that the only other "Joker" article is also a DC Comics character, as I've already explicated. The proposed move neither solves no concrete problem, and solves it exceptionally poorly. |
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:::::::: The supporters themselves don't seem to provide any evidence that there's actually a problem this MR would solve. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 09:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Disagree that [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is about a DC Comics character. It is about a film character that is ''based upon'' the DC Comics character. Apples and oranges. The rest is just something you'll have to figure out or ignore. I've explained as much as I can. Be well. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>10:27, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::: Then you're misunderstanding a few very fundamental things: (a) all incarnations of the character are DC (b) the "DC Comics" DAB was not to DAB the comics incarnation from a non-comics incarnation; "DC Comics" is the name of a company, and the base article is about the fictional character in general, including its film/TV/cartoon/novel/cosplay versions. To reiterate: "Joker" is a property of DC Entertainment (a subsidiary of Warner Bros.), and the [[Joker (character)]] article is about that property. That [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a subarticle of that is not even up for debate. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 10:54, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I have no trouble understanding what you've explained, and yet the fact remains that to simply use "(character)" as a qualifier for this article results in [[WP:INCDAB|incomplete disambiguation]]. The proposed title solves that problem. We seem to agree that this article needs to have a disambiguator; however, the present disambiguator is not enough, that is, it is "incomplete" and therefore too ambiguous to warrant being part of the title of this article. There is a reader need here, and editors are obligated to fill that need ''per the editing guideline!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>13:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::::: I strongly disagree that it's an "incomplete disambiguation". [[Joker (character)]] is the hub article for the character in general, not just the original comics character. Other versions of the character even received coverage in the lead. [[Joker in other media]] and [[Alternative versions of Joker]] are extensions of that article's sections that exist only because there is too much information to fit in the ''character'' article. ''The Dark Knight'' character is also covered in both [[Joker (character)]] and [[Joker in other media]], but that is one of the few specific iterations that is notable enough to have its own article. And '''all''' versions of the character, adaptation or otherwise, are the same DC character. As for [[Joker (comic book)]] and [[Joker (graphic novel)]], those are about publications named after the character, not the character. I think ''Joker (character)'' is perfectly complete and precise enough as it is. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 02:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::: [[User:Paine Ellsworth|Paine Ellsworth]]: "the fact remains ... "(character)" ... results in [[WP:INCDAB|incomplete disambiguation]]": You keep telling us it's "incomplete disambiguation", and you keep declining to tell us how it is in any way incomplete, even after being asked. What is supposed to be ambiguous about it? What is the "reader need" you're talking about? Please be concrete. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 03:54, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::: Unbelievable that it even needs an explanation; however, I shall try not to be obtuse. This article is titled '''Joker (character)''', which on Wikipedia is unacceptable because '''Joker (''The Dark Knight'')''' is also about the fictional character named "Joker". This means that "character" as a qualifier in the title of this article is in dire need of more disambiguation. I consider your opinion and that of other opposers to be [[WP:IAR]] because opposition to this page move goes against the editing guideline for fixing incomplete disambiguations. I'm more than a big fan of breaking the rules; however, that's only when there is very good reason to do so. Nobody in this debate has given a very good reason to ignore the editing guideline. Anytime an article must be qualified by a disambiguating word or phrase, it is because the name of the article by itself is ambiguous enough to confuse readers. It does our readers no good to use a disambiguator that is not complete enough to dispel confusion and reader astonishment. The title of this article is disambiguated only by the word "character", so that disambiguation is [[wikt:incomplete|''not'' complete]]. Hope this helps. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>07:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::::::: You keep restating things that have already been refuted. Should I keep restating our refutations? As you are in the minority insisting (character) is "incomplete" and that the subarticle is not a subarticle, the onus is on you to demonstrate these things—not to merely assert them. It's obnoxious to insist we're [[WP:IAR]]ing when we've already demonstrated that this article follows the titling and DABbing guidelines. As to "ambiguous"—without some demonstration that some reader at sometime was credibly misled, that's worthy of no more than a facepalm, especially given that [[Joker (character)]] appears first in the search hints. If a reader is familiar with Joker, they will know whether (The Dark Knight) is the appropriate DAB; if they don't, the likelihood of them choosing (The Dark Knight) over (character) when the ''character'' is what they're looking for (and what appears first) is ''nil''. Suggesting otherwise suggests one has had little experience interacting with humans. |
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:::::::::::::: Besides all this, you keep ignoring the fact that the character in ''The Dark Knight'' is also a DC Comics character, and thus the proposed DAB is hopelessly broken (aside from being completely pointless). Seriously, how many times do I have to repeat this? You can't ignore this problem away. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 08:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::: Nobody has refuted my argument to my satisfaction or I would have changed my !vote. Your endless redundancies and repetitions don't do your argument any good, so you would be well-advised to cease and desist. And the character in ''The Dark Knight'' is definitely and decidedly NOT a DC Comics character. Instead it is a ''fictional film character that is '''based upon''' the DC Comics character''. Again, apples and oranges, which clearly shows the need for more complete disambiguation of this article title! '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>08:15, 4 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::::::::: [[User:Paine Ellsworth|Paine Ellsworth]]: In other words, you'll simply ignore the concrete arguments you've been presented with. Not a convincing way to debate, and doesn't seem to be moving this discussion any closer to a consensus to move. |
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:::::::::::::::: "decidedly NOT a DC Comics character"—not a "DC '''c'''omics" character, but yes, a "DC '''C'''omics" character, and you can't wish that away. Regardless, as you've been told but will inevitably ignore again, ''this article is not about the character's comic-book appearances''. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. If you can't even accept the facts, you're simply wasting everyone's time here. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 22:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::::Right back atcha! The "fact" is that both this article and ''The Dark Knight'' article are about the Joker, which in this article is a '''notable DC Comics ''character''''', and which in the DK article is a '''notable film ''character'''''. They are both "characters" and they are both notable enough to have their own articles here on ''Wikipedia''. So the "fact" is that they must be completely disambiguated from each other. The fact is that you have asserted PTOPIC, but you have not said why this article should be accepted as the PTOPIC. Therefore, the fact is that you have given absolutely no good reason why editors should ignore the editing guideline. The reasons you do give are not good enough, it's really as simple as that. I can see that you are heavily invested in this subject of comics, all aspects of the subject. I suggest you apply that same self-investment to this project and its guidelines! '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>01:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::::::::: [[WP:NCCOMICS]] outright says "''Articles primarily about characters appearing in a comic should use the phrase (character)''" (going into more detail). That's not [[WP:IAR]]. And they are all the exact same character, not separate characters with the same inspiration. I second that the only thing that separates the comics character from the ''Dark Knight'' character is continuity and portrayal, which is purely [[WP:INUNIVERSE]]. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 09:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::::Seems you're suggesting to redisambiguate [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker (''The Dark Knight'')]] and make it instead [[Joker (The Dark Knight character)|Joker (''The Dark Knight'' character)]]. I guess that must be done if we are to strictly follow the NCCOMICS guideline, correct? The main separation as I see it is that the Joker in this article is primarily about the DC Comics character, and the Joker in ''The Dark Knight'' is, as you say, a separate and distinct portrayal of a fictional '''''film''''' character that is only '''''based upon''''' the comics character. Again, apples and oranges – they're both fruit, but they taste different. This article clearly needs more disambiguation than just the word "character". To add more disambiguation to the word "character" would still be in line with the NCCOMICS guideline, wouldn't it? '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>17:45, 4 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::::::::::: {{re|Paine Ellsworth}} "''The main separation as I see it is that the Joker in this article is primarily about the DC Comics character, and the Joker in ''The Dark Knight'' is, as you say, a separate and distinct portrayal of a fictional '''''film''''' character that is only '''''based upon''''' the comics character.''" - You keep saying that, often with no additional argument to support it besides a moot "''apples and oranges''" idiom. But multiple users have already explained to you with different explanations that they are '''all''' the DC Comics character. And now you are suggesting that the movie Jokers (such as Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger) are the same character, but they are somehow separate from all the other Jokers? I'm sorry, but WHAT??? The only thing separating the [[Mark Hamill]] Joker from the [[Heath Ledger]] Joker from the hundreds of comic Jokers is continuity and writer interpretation. The difference is [[WP:INUNIVERSE]] at best. You may insist otherwise, but the consensus does not appear to be in your favour in this regard. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 00:12, 5 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::::::You are saying it as if being based upon was just a minor and trivial thing that we could dismiss so casually. It is not, it is a very important and defining aspect of the character. Apples and oranges? No, apples and apples. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 18:39, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::{{od}} |
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:::::All I am saying is that we have two articles about the same '''character'''. While one article is about one type of the character, the other article is about a different type of the character. Both types of the character are notable enough to have their own article here on ''Wikipedia'', therefore both articles must be completely disambiguated from each other. They are not completely disambiguated from each other at present, and this requested move solves that problem. That's all I'm saying, so please refrain from the repetitious posts about things that are not good enough reasons for editors to ignore the [[WP:INCDAB]] guideline. Thank you''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>01:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::::::That's wrong. We do not have two articles about the same character. We have an article about the character in general, and another about a specific version of the character. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 14:37, 5 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::You say I'm wrong, then you write about how correct I've been. |
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:::::::{{gi|We have an article about the '''character''' in general, and another about a specific version of the '''character'''.}} (my bold) |
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:::::::Two character articles. The DK Joker article is already sufficiently disambiguated from this one; however, this article is by no means completely disambiguated from the DK Joker article. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>14:55, 5 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::: You're really not giving the impression that you're arguing in good faith when you play with people's words like this. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:45, 5 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::For what it's worth, and on a point of order, the assertion here that there is a guideline saying primary topic may not be established on an incomplete disambiguator is incorrect. Some users feel it should be, but the rule has never establishsed a consensus. [[Thriller (album)]] is the most notable example where the rule could be applied and hasn't, since that is a primary redirect to the M. Jackson album. See [[WP:PDAB]] for the history of the debate. — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 09:59, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Half hearted support''' - There have been issues in the past about this article being weighted toward the comic version of the character as opposed to all his incarnations. In those, I said I'd be fine with (comics character). This proposal is close enough. I don't think it's ''necessary'', but it's not wrong. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 13:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*: [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]]: a comics-focused article would be a sub-article of the base [[Joker (character)]] article regardless. You're proposing a new article. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 03:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''', again. This is, what, the third time for essentially the same move request? There is no other widely known character called the Joker. Yes, there's a playing-card symbol, the Joker, but that's not a character any more than the kings, queens and jacks are characters. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 17:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:*{{to|Tenebrae}} this RM actually addresses concerns brought out by opposers in the previous RM, so it a) is not essentially the same request, and b) as long as it's not the same request, editors can make new requests like this one to try and garner consensus for the proposed ''new and different page title''. There is nothing that says they cannot do that, and some here have tread on [[WP:AGF]] issues in regard to their responses to other !votes and rationales. |
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:: Other editors who oppose have made this a [[WP:PTOPIC|PTOPIC]] issue, and I'll admit that the counters to that (in the previous RM) were weak, especially considering what [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] said above about the ongoing debate. What I noticed about those editors is that while they cited and asserted that PTOPIC applies, they seem to have forgotten to show why PTOPIC is an appropriate guideline citation. In other words, they have not shown that [[Joker (character)]] meets the following criteria: |
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::# A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. |
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::# A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term. |
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::If opposers could show that this article meets those criteria, then I would seriously consider changing my support to an oppose !vote. Supporters on the other hand have repeatedly cited that same guideline in a different section, [[WP:INCDAB]], which applies to the qualifier of this title, "character". Are you certain that this is not an incomplete disambiguation that needs further qualification to be clearly distinct from the film character at [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker (''The Dark Knight'')]]? The film character is essentially the same character as the DC Comics character because it is ''based upon'' the character from DC; however, aren't they separate and distinct articles about different subjects? and aren't they both fictional "characters"? '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>18:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::*I'm afraid I don't understand why I have been singled out when other editors have expressed the same concern about the multiple move requests. |
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:::I believe the Joker movie characters are all based on the DC Comics character. We don't seems to have multiple Spider-Man articles devoted to Spider-Man (Sam Raimi trilogy), Spider-Man (Marc Webb films), Spider-Man (MCU), Spider-Man (1970s TV series), etc. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 19:47, 3 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::*"aren't they separate and distinct articles about different subjects?". Short answer: No, they are not. They are only different in-universe, as the comics and the films have their own continuities. As an intellectual property and narrative device, it is the same character, licenced and used in several media, but it's still the same one. Same goes for Batman, and that's why the films and animated series always have that line "Batman created by Bob Kane": even if adapted and with some narrative changes, it's still the same character. We do not have two articles because they are two different characters, it's just because one is a content fork of the other. This one is '''not''' the article about the Joker in comic books, it's the article about the whole Joker "franchise", and there is a high focus on comics because that's the original media. Note as well that we have [[The Lord of the Rings]] (the book) with no DAB and [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)]], not "(book)" and "(film series)", even if the film series got worldwide recognition of its own and many people know just the films. Written in policy or not, a work and adaptations of the same name are not considered different topics for a DAB. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 01:16, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::* {{tq|it's the article about the whole Joker "franchise", and there is a high focus on comics }} - Sure, but even within comic continuities, there are articles about individual incarnations ([[Iron Man]] vs [[Iron Man (Ultimate Marvel character)]]). The only difficulties in this case are that this Joker is not a primary topic for "joker", and its also not the only character named that. No one is saying the content of this article should change (as an overview of the character that originated in DC Comics), just that the name needs to be clear about the topic. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::* It is DABbed because it's not the only "Joker" article, but it ''is'' the only "Joker (character)" article. The other "Joker (character)"s do not (and probably will not) have articles to DAB from. This is a solution in search of a problem. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 08:07, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::To netoholic: yes, comic books have many continuities, and sometimes a specific version of a character has standalone notability for a fork article. Nothing of that counters my argument: in-universe information aside, it is always the same character. That's why this article, which has an overview of the character in its full, has a section with a summary of [[Alternative versions of Joker]], as well as a [[Joker in other media]]. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 12:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::*{{to|Tenebrae}} If I have "singled" you out, it is because of our past encounters and my respect for your opinion. In this case I think you're wrong; however, that's just my own absurd opinion. Your taking the opposing viewpoint in this did make me step back and reexamine the details. Didn't mean to give you the idea that you were being in any way placed under the magnifying glass. Thank you, and Best of Everything to You and Yours''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>07:13, 4 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose''' on grounds already extensively discussed in previous RMs, (character) is concise and the primary topic for characters called "Joker". I will add that I personally think that the "incomplete disambiguation" guideline is over-strictly applied by some editors and there should be a number of commonsense exceptions anyway, so even to the extent the current disambig is arguably incomplete, it is not some kind of drastic rule violation and should not override the many valid reasons to keep the article where it is. Tricky RMs routinely have to balance guidelines which give inconsistent / competing advice. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 19:44, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:*"Character" is more concise than just "Joker"; however, ''Wikipedia'' has two articles about the Joker character. There are two notable renditions of the Joker character. Both of these articles, this one and the Dark Knight article, should be completely disambiguated from each other, and presently they are not. You also invoke PTOPIC for this article; however, you don't show why this article {{gi|is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term}}, and why this article is significant over the long term because {{gi|it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with}} the Joker. Those two criteria are used to determine whether a subject is primary. Please show how this article meets those criteria. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>01:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:** ''Jesus Christ'', [[User:Paine Ellsworth|Paine Ellsworth]], this has gotten beyond obnoxious. The [[Joker (character)]] article is ''not'' about a "notobale rendition" of the character—it is the base article for the character ''in general'', covering its representations in ''all media''. The ''lead itself'' links to six actors who have portrayed or voiced the character! Worse—you've been told this all already. Repeatedly. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 13:20, 5 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::* It's very clear that your [[WP:BADGERING]] has gone beyond what even I will tolerate. Please cease and desist, and pick up a copy of the guideline that explains how to disambiguate two distinct "character" articles. Thank you in advance for never again calling me by my "real" name. [[God|My father]] prefers that I remain anonymous. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>14:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::** How does a person respond to gibberish? Why are you even here, if not to exasperate? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::*You seem to be responding well enough. You have tried very hard to dominate this debate with your frequent badgering. You've been asked to stop, just as much for your own sake as for that of others, because such anti-AGF on your part does absolutely nothing for either your argument or your credibility. For your own sake at least, please stop trying to lord it over others as if you knew everything there is to know. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>02:37, 6 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::::::: Read: "Stop calling me out, already." [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 21:25, 6 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' or move to [[The Joker, that fictional white-faced goon who's the primary antagonist in the Batman franchise who might hate Bats but might also be secretly sexually attracted to him, or so Frank Miller thought]], per [[WP:CONCISE]] and lack of need to DAB. [[User:Ribbet32|Ribbet32]] ([[User talk:Ribbet32|talk]]) 05:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC) |
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** Not [[WP:PRECISE]] enough. Should be {{font colour|red|The Joker (fictional character, anarchist, nihilist, serial killer, mass murderer, occasional harmless prankster, and supervillain clown who's the primary antagonist in the Batman franchise, originating in comic books but also appearing in every other form of media, who might hate Bats but might also be secretly sexually attracted to him, or so Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, and Rocksteady thought, but also hates all of his sidekicks out of jealousy; Who knows what's going on with that, right?)}} Only then will the readers know which "Joker" the article is about. Otherwise, they'll just confuse him with various sub-articles, [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|one article]] about a film adaptation of the exact same character that has a DAB clearly indicating that it's not about the character in general, or any of the very minor niche characters that don't have articles but are briefly mentioned on the disambiguation page. Also, if this proposal fails, those in opposition of [[Joker (character)]] are strongly advised to keep opening move proposals. One of them will eventually succeed. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 19:08, 6 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::* Mocking of this process is unwelcome. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:44, 8 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::* They've kinda got a point, though... [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 20:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC) |
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* Pile on '''oppose'''. Enough time has been wasted, without anyone ever describing how the proposed move would benefit the readers, and how could anyone be genuinely confused about the current setup. [[WP:COMMONSENSE]] and [[WP:IAR]] beat the [[WP:INCOMPLETEDAB]] (whose applicability has not even been conclusively proven) any time of the day. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user|talk]]) |
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:* The applicability of '''WP:INCOMPLETEDAB''' happens to be based upon the existence of a second "character" article. Your rationale seems to deny the existence of the '''[[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker (''The Dark Knight'')]]''' notable film-character article. That article title, "Joker", is the same as the title of this article, and yet is completely disambiguated from this article. Can you say the same for this article? Is this article disambiguated completely enough from ''The Dark Knight'' film-character article? Is the qualifier, "character" complete enough to disambiguate this article from the article on the film character? '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>12:41, 9 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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:::It has been reasonably disputed that ''The Dark Knight'' character is a distinct from the one described in this article, and therefore it's just a [[WP:SUMMARYSTYLE]] spinoff. Even putting that aside, [[WP:INCOMPLETEDAB]] is a pretty obscure and lame guideline (does it ''really'' matter whether we have a "primary topic" among disambiguated ones?), whose application or non-application does not bring much added value to the reader either way, and hardly worth bickering about. Bickering about it through three RMs and at least one MR certainly deserves an entry in [[WP:LAME]]. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user|talk]]) 13:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::You're right, and I don't think we should bicker; however, when an editor makes their responses so full of LAME referrals, especially about WP guidelines that constitute the consensus of the community, the hair on my neck begins to rise. No the DK character is basically the same character as the Joker in this article, it just appears in a different medium. And you don't think that needs further disambiguation? To just qualify this Joker as a character, is that complete enough disambiguation from the other notable rendition of the Joker? the one in the DK article? Not likely. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>00:33, 10 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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::::: "just appears in a different medium"—gibberish. ''This'' article covers ''every'' medium, as it is about ''the character in general'', as a number of editors have repeatedly repeated over and over again, repeatedly. [[WP:IDHT]] is a blockable offense. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 05:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::Stop with the threats, Curley. Continually editing against community consensus in article space may sometimes be blockable, but good faith talk page comments certainly are not. On the issue itself, I think it's fairly clear that the Joker described here and the one in the Dark Knight article are the same dude, as evidenced by coverage of Ledger et al here. That makes that one a child article of this one, and hence arguably not a contender for the "(character)" disambiguator in its own right. — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 11:07, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::: [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]]: stonewalling a discussion with relentless [[WP:IDHT]] is most definitely behaviour that has resulted in blocks—I do not bring it up lightly. It's one thing to have different opinions—we all do—but Paine Ellsworth's behaviour is not the mere expression of a differing opinion. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 11:16, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::Then it looks like we'll all have to be blocked! gobble gobble! '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>13:13, 10 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose'''. In this case we're stuck with non-optimal disambiguation choices, and I don't see this proposed one as an improvement. As before, I think the fact that no other character named "Joker" has an article mitigates the [[WP:INCDAB]] concerns. Given that [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is a variant of this character and covered here, I don't see it as an obstacle to the current disambiguation.--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 14:50, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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===Arby break=== |
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*'''Comment.''' So far, no opposer has been able to explain why the title of this article, which is only qualified by "character", should be the title of ''any'' article. "Joker (character)" shouldn't even redirect to this article, because it could just as easily redirect to [[Joker (The Dark Knight)|Joker (''The Dark Knight'')]]. The title of this article should redirect to [[Joker (disambiguation)|the disambiguation page]]. That's the long-term community consensus on the subject, and I hope the closer will give that fact deliberate consideration. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small> [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] </small> <small>00:52, 10 May 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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** No, we've explained in exhaustive detail, and your dismissal of everything every opposer has said up to this point—and bizarre and uncited claim about "long-term community consensus on the subject"—borders on trolling. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 05:53, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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***Redirecting (character) to a DAB is a terrible idea. Titles should get readers to what they want as quickly as possible. Do you really think the number of readers looking for the Dark Knight character article or any of the minor miscellaneous Joker characters dug up by Netoholic is significant compared to the ones looking for this comic villain? This seems like a solution in search of a problem. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:17, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
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---- |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2018 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Joker (character)|answered=yes}} |
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his real name is jack napiear [[Special:Contributions/2405:204:3227:CE03:BD3C:953F:73CE:F0C1|2405:204:3227:CE03:BD3C:953F:73CE:F0C1]] ([[User talk:2405:204:3227:CE03:BD3C:953F:73CE:F0C1|talk]]) 16:33, 17 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:Actually, the Joker has multiple and conflicting origin stories (even in-universe), so he does not really have a "name", besides simply "Joker". See [https://screenrant.com/batman-joker-craziest-origin-stories/ 15 Wildly Different Origin Stories For The Joker]. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 17:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC) |
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== Proposed merge with [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] == |
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{{Atop|result=Closed by {{u|Mikeblas}} below without merge. Related tags removed. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 17:31, 27 May 2018 (UTC)}} |
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The only major difference that could possibly be worth noting between TDK edition and the main page is film plotline, and even that plot could easily be discussed within a paragraph in the main page without losing anything of encyclopedic value. Having multiple pages for what otherwise is basically the same character quite frankly is thinly veiled fancruft no matter how detailed a page gets (which was probably made by some overzealous fan of ''The Dark Knight'') and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. Wikipedia is supposed to be a professional encyclopedia, not something as lenient as a Batman/DC Comics fansite, where having multiple Joker pages would be more appropriate. Sorry to the DC Comics fans, but there's honestly no good reason not to merge these pages as per [[WP:Content forking#Redundant content forks]]. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 06:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:[[Joker in other media]] or [[The Dark Knight (film)]] from where the info is largely duplicated should be your first options, not here. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 08:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:*I'd also be fine with merging to either of those if people are more comfortable with that. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 13:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose'''. ''The Dark Knight''{{'}}s version of the Joker has been covered extensively by reliable sources to the point where he is notable enough for his own article, although the page definitely could use some improvements (I actually have plans to work on it). Furthermore, we have pages for several TV/film versions of comic book characters, such as [[Tony Stark (Marvel Cinematic Universe)|the MCU's version of Iron Man]] and [[Characters of Smallville|''Smallville''{{'}}s versions of several different DC characters]] (some of which are GAs). [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 12:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:*That's being too lenient. First of all, it doesn't matter how many references discuss the character; that does nothing to hide the fact that it's overall the same person as this Joker. Secondly, WP:OTHERSTUFF is irrelevant here and honestly not a convincing point, though MCU Iron Man shouldn't have his own page either and was likely made by an overly eager fan. Same probably goes for ''Smallvile''. Did you not read my point on how Wikipedia isn't supposed to be like a Batman/DC fansite? Having multiple Joker pages is completely unnecessary when there's so much overlap between them. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 13:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::*My point is that notability isn't determined by similarities between topics so we don't just merge articles because they're similar {{small|(and if we did, then Wikipedia would be a ''lot'' smaller...)}}. There's too much information about ''The Dark Knight''{{'}}s Joker (portrayal, characterization, inspiration, etc.) to fit here, even if both are based on the same basic character. I've also looked over the Joker (''The Dark Knight'') page and virtually the only similarity with Joker (character) it holds is the description of his appearance. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 14:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::*I said '''major difference''' and '''worth noting''' for film plots. Everything other difference is negligible. Other details added to try to make them look different was probably inserted by TDK fans attempting to hide similarities and fancruft. One cannot reasonably assert it isn't largely a duplicate at its core plus WP:REDUNDANTFORK (which I linked above) states we shouldn't have multiple pages for what's basically the same subject. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 15:11, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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'''Support''' merge to [[Joker in other media]]. Let's face it. People want this article to be around because it was an awesome and iconic media portrayal role. But it was an one time role. The article focuses on execution and that's about it. It got positive media reception and reaction but so did Jack Nicholson' Joker and DCAU Joker. (Also Leto's role when it comes to mixed reviews). Its got good info but it still would be better in improving [[Joker in other media]] IMO. [[User:Jhenderson777|<span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px:color:blue">Jhenderson</span>]]<sup>'''[[User talk:Jhenderson777| <span style="color:red;">7</span><span style="color:blue;">7</span><span style="color:aqua;">7</span>]]'''</sup> 16:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:That would also be perfectly viable, and you do bring up good points on one-time-only roles as well as other portrayals of the character. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 21:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' - This has actually been discussed more than once in the past. Unlike the majority of specific incarnations of comic characters, the ''Dark Knight'' portrayal of Joker has actually received enough third party coverage, is different enough from the previous incarnations, and has had a big enough impact on cinema to be independentally [[WP:NOTABILITY|notable]]. Aside from the surface level observation that [[Joker (The Dark Knight)]] is an adaptation of the comics character, this doesn't come close to qualifying as "redundant". The notability hardly comes from plotline or [[WP:FANCRUFT]], and Jhenderson777's unsubstantiated assumptions of other editors almost borders on [[WP:BADFAITH]]. If this was about articles of lesser notability, such as [[Clark Kent (Smallville)]] or [[James Gordon (Gotham)]], perhaps SNUGGUMS would have a point. And as pointed out above, [[Joker in other media]] should have been the primary target of the ill-justified suggested move. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 00:47, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:: I assume no bad edits on anyone. Especially you. You are a fine editor! Reliable third party sources are on every comic book film character to come out. But most of the topic can either be placed on the film article or in other media with improvement on there. The only reason why he could have his own article is that he's the most critically praised villain. Although one could argue with that very reason that Thanos film version and Loki film version could have their own article or better yet Jack's Joker and Chris Reeve's Superman (both noted by the American Film Institute with that reason among others) can be compared as important or more important. Also these characters you mentioned are not "less notable". That's very subjective. {{Ping|Bignole}} already explained why the Clark Kent of Smallville is indeed notable to have its own article. Same goes for Arrowverse's Flash and maybe even Gotham's James Gordon. Also at least Tony Stark has appeared in multiple film adaptions. The thing is we are not losing anything my merging the character info. He is still an adaption of the Joker. Just like Jack, Hamill etc. etc. which are all notable by third party sources but would still be [[Wp:content forks|content forks]] on the in other media page.[[User:Jhenderson777|<span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px:color:blue">Jhenderson</span>]]<sup>'''[[User talk:Jhenderson777| <span style="color:red;">7</span><span style="color:blue;">7</span><span style="color:aqua;">7</span>]]'''</sup> 01:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Not "ill-justified" in the slightest. As an obvious fan of the movie as well as DC in general, that's probably skewing your judgement here and making you view this through the eyes of a fan rather than an unbiased perspective, especially with the blatant double standards of asserting this incarnation warrants an article unlike other famous portrayals when in reality we only need one page for the basic character. Multiple pages for one character is very needlessly repetitive and I'm not going to pretend otherwise even if you do. The sheer number of good sources that cover this version of him or their depth is entirely moot when they're by extension general Joker coverage. We aren't supposed to be Batman/DC Comics Wikia. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 01:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: SNUGGUMS, I should probably clarify that when I said "ill-justified", I meant in terms of the explanation given. I do think that we need more of a reason to merge, especially when most editors here (at the moment) see it as a legitimate content fork rather than redundant fan service, though it could use some rewrites. And no, I always try to maintain NPOV. Even when I am providing content for articles on sequels I despise (such as ''[[Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Next Generation]]''), my first area of concern is reflecting the sources in a non-slanted manner. Lastly, as friendly advice, I want to point out that replying to every comment can be interpreted by some users as [[WP:BLUDGEON]], though that probably wasn't your intention since there are only six votes as I am typing this. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 21:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::No there most certainly wasn't any intention to bludgeon but I will say sorry if it ever comes off as such to anyone. Regardless, my point wasn't that you were inserting bias into articles, but that clearly being a huge fan of TDK makes you more naturally inclined to defend the page's existence and evidently prevents you from seeing the overlap when only looking at the core features. Don't get me wrong as I thought it was a fantastic watch myself, but I'm not so invested that it keeps me from viewing it through an unbiased and professional perspective rather than what fansites like Wikia would opt for when maintaining separate pages. It sadly doesn't look like one can say the same for you when you're being too lenient in asserting it should be kept. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 22:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose'''. There's nothing in that article that could reasonably be merged with this one and maintain balance. If the article can't stand on its own, it should be merged into [[The Dark Knight (film)]]. Regardless, this is the wrong forum for such a discussion. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 03:20, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:* You must've overlooked how I said plot was the only major difference that could be worth noting and how it could be contained here within a paragraph. However, I'd have no objections with merging into the movie page or [[Joker in other media]] as previously suggested. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 04:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::: [[User:SNUGGUMS|SNUGGUMS]]: You must've overlooked where I said this talk page is the wrong forum for a merge discussion. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: No, I definitely noticed that, but don't see any how this could be the wrong page unless it gets changed to solely focusing on a merge to the film page. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 00:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::::: [[User:SNUGGUMS|SNUGGUMS]]: (a) the merge isn't about this article (b) there's no way it'll be merged into this article (at least two other articles are far, far better candidates). There's no justification for the discussion to be here. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 00:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''': This a clear case of a legitimate [[Wikipedia:Content forking]]. Not all alternative versions of characters deserve articles of their own, but Dark Knight's Joker is one of those who does. The article already establishes the specific notability. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 03:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:*No it most certainly doesn't (especially when stripped of excess detail) given how alike the page is at its core other than movie plot. It's too lenient to let more than one character page exist when a singular page is all a professional site needs. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 04:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::* Have you actually ''read'' that article? The movie plot is minimal, just the basic needed. Most of the article is about out-of-universe information: performance, development, reception, etc. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 01:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::*Of course I have, and only reception out of those things could possibly be needed in here or any other potential merge target now that I think further about it, and even that isn't such a major character difference compared to plotline. Everything else was probably added to try disguising the fact that having multiple articles is fancruft. No prose or sheer number of sources can change that. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 02:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::** And none of that has anything to do with this article. Can we move the discussion elsewhere? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 03:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' in concurrence with [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;"></span>, <s>[[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]],</s> and [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]]. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 22:31, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:*You seem to have contradicted yourself when I outright say it should be merged to here, the movie, or other media page while Curly Turkey opted to merge into movie page if anywhere and Cambalachero opposes any merging. I'm not sure what you were going for here but personally can't see any convincing reason why it shouldn't be merged. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">Snuggums</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 22:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::I apologize; I read "One cannot reasonably assert it isn't largely a duplicate at its core plus WP:REDUNDANTFORK (which I linked above) states we shouldn't have multiple pages for what's basically the same subject" and I interpreted that to mean we shouldn't fork from [[Joker (character)]]. I've crossed you out in my post and I apologize. --[[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 23:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::: {{ec}} To clarify: I have not supported merging with anything. I've stated only that a merge with ''this'' article would be inappropriate, thus a merge discussion should happen elsewhere. [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly "JFC" Turkey]] <span style="color: Red;">🍁</span> [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 23:09, 20 May 2018 (UTC) |
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'''Closing.''' I don't see much support for a merger, so I've removed the related tags. -- [[User:Mikeblas|Mikeblas]] ([[User talk:Mikeblas|talk]]) 13:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC) |
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{{Ab}} |
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== Character template == |
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Most of the characters you removed on the template do have history with Joker such as Catwoman, Robin, Suicide Squad, and Superman. Is there a reason why those are excluded and Batgirl, Birds of Prey, and Justice League aren’t? He has had a lot of history with those characters as much as those. [[User:Pinky Rhino|Pinky Rhino]] ([[User talk:Pinky Rhino|talk]]) 21:51, 15 January 2019 (UTC) |
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:Templates are intended to link related items together easily where necessary. Most of the templates you are adding belong to characters who are already linked in the article, and the rest have only a loose relationship at best to this character. At one point you were adding a Green Goblin template. You're adding templates for DC characters, when many of them are already linked in the Joker template. In fact as far as I can see, every separate template you are adding is for a character/group already existing in the Joker template that is already there at the bottom of the page, which are heavily duplicated in the Batman template directly beneath it. So adding these further templates is just duplicating several times over the appropriate links, while adding a bunch of links unrelated to the Joker. In short, they are adding nothing of value. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 22:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC) |
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::Let’s compromise: how about we just add Robin and Catwoman. He has has a major impacts on those two. They’ve had just as much of an impact as the Birds of Prey. [[User:Pinky Rhino|Pinky Rhino]] ([[User talk:Pinky Rhino|talk]]) 00:07, 16 January 2019 (UTC) |
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:::You can remove Birds of Prey as far as I'm concerned, he's only relevant there when it involves Batgirl. I think Robin and Catwoman are still redundant but fine it's an acceptable compromise. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 00:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC) |
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== Joker movie == |
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It's a bit early now, but closer to release, the [[Joker (2019 film)|''Joker'' film]] should have more than just a single bare-bones sentence in the '''Media''' section. It's the first major motion picture to specifically revolve around the Joker as the main character, so obviously it's [[WP:WEIGHT|undue weight]] to give more information on a lot of his lesser appearances (respectively) than his own movie. I think about 2–3 informative sentences would be a good length, when more info gets revealed (or when the film comes out). '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 02:45, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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: I also rewrote the '''''Gotham (TV series)''''' section at [[Joker in other media]] a couple of weeks ago, to get it to Wikipedia standards. Does anyone think it might be worth rewriting the other sections to get it to GA status? It is a derivative of this article, after all. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 02:51, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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::The film isn't out yet and might have as much impact as Leto's Joker, which is to say none, there's no rush to try and inflate it's importance. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 22:40, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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::: Jared Leto was only in ''Suicide Squad'' for about 10 minutes, and his performance was poorly received at that. The ''Joker'' film is the first major motion picture specifically revolving around The Joker. It's literally devoted to and about him, so of course it's more important. That being said, I definitely agree that there isn't a rush. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 22:55, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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== Gallery, pictures == |
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Is there even chance to include historic live action Jokers from Cesar Romero to Joaquin Phoenix or copyright prevents it all? Also would it be possible to add more comic book representations since there are only two?[[User:Sourcerery|Sourcerery]] ([[User talk:Sourcerery|talk]]) 16:53, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:There is a separate article for other comic versions of the Joker and since he generally looks the same it's not going to pass [[WP:NFC]] to include more images than there already are, and it's not possible or necessary to include images of every actor behind the Joker, there are again separate articles for that. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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::Well you wouldn't know from looking at this article, it's good idea then to add some links for easy navigation to various versions.[[User:Sourcerery|Sourcerery]] ([[User talk:Sourcerery|talk]]) 17:59, 4 April 2019 (UTC) |
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::: Doing such a gallery would definitely conflict with [[WP:NFCC]]. Hell, [[Joker in other media]] arguably has too many non-free images that serve no commentary purpose (and people tend to add more every time a new version shows up in major media). '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 04:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
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== Cameron Monaghan == |
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https://www.gamespot.com/articles/gothams-next-joker-evolution-is-actually-a-nightma/1100-6465237/ |
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https://www.instagram.com/p/ByDv-oyJ6Wv/ |
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https://mobile.twitter.com/thetzechun/status/1076711476365328384 |
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For those who insist that he isn't the Joker |
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[[User:Kingofsting87|Kingofsting87]] ([[User talk:Kingofsting87|talk]]) 14:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:Even if he is, it still ignores my edit summary that the opening cannot be an exhaustive list. If people abuse it then the only conceivable step is to remove all mentions. I disagree with Jared Leto and Joaquin Phoenix' jokers being mentioned as well, because neither is yet as iconic as Jack Nicholson's interpretation or Ledger's oscar winning one. Leto's is in fact derided. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:But it would only be one more actor. |
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[[User:Kingofsting87|Kingofsting87]] ([[User talk:Kingofsting87|talk]]) 07:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC) |
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::And the next time it's just one as well. And the time after that, and the time after that. There are literally 4 iconic Joker actors, Cesar Romero, Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, and Mark Hamill. Anything else shouldn't be there.[[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:39, 4 July 2019 (UTC) |
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:::True, but Mark Hamil is animated + Monaghan was the first live action Joker after ledger |
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[[User:Kingofsting87|Kingofsting87]] ([[User talk:Kingofsting87|talk]]) 20:58, 8 July 2019 (UTC) |
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== Origins subsection == |
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Wouldn't it make more sense to integrate the "Origins" subsection into the main part of the "Character biography" section? It would eliminate a lot of repetition. -[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 17:48, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:No, because they're covering different info, and short of mentioning the Killing Joke again, they cover different facets of the stories. His lack of an origin and conversely MULTIPLE origins is an important part of the character. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Actors mention in the lead == |
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Can we get some consensus here for the future about what can go in the lead because people clearly cannot read. Anytime someone voices and/or plays the Joker is not in itself notable, and it is not possible, in the lead, to list all of these people. The people mentioned there are FAMOUS for their portrayals of the character. Jack Nicholson was a phenomenon as the Joker and they were comparing Ledger to him 20 years later, Ledger again was a phenomenon and got an oscar nom, Cesar Romero is infamous for his portrayal of the Joker and so is Hamill who defines the animated character for generations of people. Jared Leto is derided for his portrayal and noone cares, Joaquin Phoenix's film is not even out yet and thus is it not possible to see if he will be notable for the role. I'm not even sure Troy Baker, and {{u|Cartoon Boy}}, no Richard Epcar shouldn't be there, he's been snuck in. As much as the Joker likes his chaos, this article needs some damn order, because if we just list whoever plays the character then the list will be endless and the next step will just be removing all the mentions altogether, and it seems ridiculous not to mention Cesar Romero, Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, and Mark Hamill in an article talking about the Joker. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 00:15, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:I agree that we should only list the notable actors in the lede. Hamill and Baker are really the only notable VAs, while Leto was only in ''Suicide Squad'' for like 10 minutes (and reception to his performance was mixed at best). However, IMO Phoenix is worth mentioning. ''Joker'' is the first (and probably going to be the only) film entirely devoted to the character, not to mention that Phoenix is arguably one of the most acclaimed actors of our times. His performance is also already generating Oscar buzz too ([https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/joker-trailer-joaquin-phoenix-oscar-best-actor-1202168700/][https://www.newsweek.com/joker-trailer-here-joaquin-phoenix-already-generating-oscar-buzz-1456604][https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2019/08/27/joker-5-reasons-why-joaquin-phoenix-madman-could-oscar-fave/2096987001/]). [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 15:43, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::Based on the other media section of the article, I think current sources only support listing Nicholson, Ledger, and Hamill in the lead. Nicholson gave a "defining performance", "Hamill's Joker is considered a defining portrayal", and Ledger won an Academy Award. Phoenix might do something special with the role, but I think it's too early to include him. I do think the upcoming film should be named in the lead though, as it doesn't fall under the "The Joker has been adapted to serve as Batman's adversary" description that captures everything else. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 17:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Fair points so far Joe and Argento. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:24, 30 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::I agree that not everyone can be listed, but it does seem kind of arbitrary to make Leto the only one left off the film actor list even if it isn't as big of a part. Given the mixed reception to his version, it kind of comes off as though editors here are just not considering his to be a valid version of the character or something, and especially so given the excessive repetition of "don't add anyone else here" or whatever in the source of the page. [[User:Alphius|Alphius]] ([[User talk:Alphius|talk]]) 16:59, 6 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:::I don;t particularly like Phoenix's Joker either. It was a good film but the similarities between it and the Joker stop and start with makeup. So it might seem arbitrary but it isn't, and it also omits Monaghan.[[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 18:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:::The hidden note is repeated because editors were either not seeing it or ignoring it. By placing it between each entry, it eliminates the first possibility. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:27, 7 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:::: One thing I have learned in my years on Wikipedia is that if certain users (especially non-regulars) want to make an edit badly enough, they'll ignore a note even if it's in plain sight. Take a look at the edit history of [[Professor Pyg]] for a blatant example. It used to happen quite a lot at [[Suicide Squad (film)]] as well, which was semi-protected over and over again because people tried to add rumours on a constant basis. Most of it turned out to be false, such as supposed appearances from Hugo Strange and Lex Luthor. |
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:::: I would go ahead and mention Juaquin Phoenix in the lead and add a couple of sentences about him in the media section. I understand where you are coming from about it being 'early', but the first film '''about''' the Joker is definitely more notable than your average media appearance. The film also won top prize at a prestigious film festival, and critics have calling it an "evolution" of comic book cinema. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 19:03, 11 October 2019 (UTC) |
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<small>('''Original reply''')</small> Oh believe me, [[Joker in other media]] has the same damn problems. I recently had to remove several unnecessary non-free images, because every time the Joker makes a major media appearance, some inexperienced user thinks it requires them to upload an image (even though the most notable versions are already represented in a collage on the infobox). Virtually none of them passed [[WP:NFCC]] and all were used for decorative purposes. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 17:18, 11 October 2019 (UTC) |
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== "The most recognizable and iconic ficitional character in popular culture" == |
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Even as a longstanding comic-book fan someone who loves the Joker, I find this line ("''is one, if not '''the''' most-recognizable and iconic fictional characters in popular culture''") more than a bit exaggerated and eyebrow-raising -- mainly the "the" in "most recognizable". I mean, he's most certainly a cultural icon and one of the most recognizable villains in comics, but the most recognizable in popular culture ''at large'' and involving all fiction? |
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I would suggest dialing back to a more sober "is considered one of the most recognizable and iconic (comic-book) characters/ villains, etc". What would you think? |
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--[[Special:Contributions/87.124.137.236|87.124.137.236]] ([[User talk:87.124.137.236|talk]]) 14:52, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
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== Politicial influences based on film versions == |
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Per above, this is for continuing discussion. The details mentioned in the original and then altered section re: political impact are all based on film versions of the character not the comic one, and this article does deal exclusively with the comic version. There is a separate article [[Joker in other media]] that covers alternate media portrayals in larger detail. I believe this section suffers both from [[WP:RECENTISM]] regarding the fairly new film, and also has no boundaries, since any time a protest happens it'll now be added to that section similar to how at [[Project X (2012 film)]] any party that throws Project X in it's name and gets some news coverage is added there. Diego argues that it is within the scope of the article, I argue that it is not. At best, it could feature as a single sentence line following the mentions of the film interpretations, but it does not warrant a subsection or significant coverage here unless it relates to the political impact of the comic character. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 15:12, 31 October 2019 (UTC) |
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*I believe that this section is relevant to the character, as it is a major part of the character's impact; the use of the Joker's image has even been compared to the [[Guy Fawkes mask]], a world-famous symbol of political defiance. Furthermore, the film versions of the Joker are still the Joker, and as such are not out of the scope of this article; the title of this article is "Joker (character)", not "Joker (comic book character)", and the first line of this article says "The Joker is a supervillain", not "The Joker is a comic book supervillain". As such, this article recognizes non-comic versions of the character. If the Joker is becoming a major political symbol, it would be silly not to include that information in the article on the grounds that the version is an adaptation of a comic book rather than a comic book itself. [[User:DiegoAma|DiegoAma]] ([[User talk:DiegoAma|talk]]) 16:04, 31 October 2019 (UTC) |
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**I think it's too soon to declare the impact of the recent film on equal footing with the character in general. There's a reason the cultural impact section of [[V for Vendetta]] is shorter than the impact section of [[V for Vendetta (film)]], for example. Despite being older, it was the film version that inspired people, not the comic. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 12:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC) |
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== Academy Awards == |
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It might be pertinent to mention (maybe even in the lead) that the Joker's movie was nominated for 11 academy awards. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 06:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:I added some more info, including to the lede. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 23:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC) |
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::I've culled this back a bit. It's ten years ago so the astounding success maybe isn't as present, but TDK broke tonnes of records too, it was like the 2nd or 3rd billion dollar movie, and Ledger won the Bafta, Golden Globe, and Oscar for the role. There was too much weight being given to ''Joker'' because it is recent, when the article is not about that film. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 00:36, 18 January 2020 (UTC) |
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::: In this instance, I disagree and believe that {{u|TheJoebro64}}'s edit should be reinstated. The Joker's first feature movie getting nominated for 11 academy awards and breaking office records is definitely a milestone in the character's history. I don't see any [[WP:RECENTISM]] here, and the Heath Ledger comparison is a false equivalency (although the lead could revised to mention that two actors were nominated for playing the same role as the Joker, which is a rarity for any character). |
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::: Comparing the Oscars to the Golden Globes is also a bit like comparing the Venice Film Festival to Toronto. There really isn't much of a comparison there as the Academy Awards are widely considered to be more prestigious and are given more weight by reliable third party news coverage than the Golden Globes. There's a reason why so many filmmakers have "For Your Consideration" campaigns for the Oscars, but you don't see nearly as many for the Golden Globes. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 07:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC) |
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::::But why is the TDK's accomplishment any lower? I think there is a misplaced emphasis on this being the 'first' Joker movie, given that people consider Joker the star of ''Batman'' 1989 and Nicholson got top billing and it was the highest grossing film of 1989, TDK saw a massive boost over Batman Begins because of the emphasis on the Joker and the viral marketing relating to him that saw it earn over a billion and get the first oscar win for the character and a superhero film, and now Joker, which is mostly Joker in name only, but got the same marketing emphasis, earned a billion as well, and has earned an oscar nomination. It's fairly equivalent to both previous films IMO, in fact if you adjust for inflation on ''Batman'' 1989, that earned $850 million too. There's just a general correlation between Batman films featuring the Joker and success (''Suicide Squad'' not withstanding). So I do think that Ledger and Phoenix's performances are pretty equivalent and the circumstances of the film. Given that the other Oscar nominations are not relevant to the character, only Best Actor is relevant here. Once the results are revealed (and remember that's only on Feb 10), then I don't see an issue with a brief mention of nominations and wins, but an entire paragraph dedicated to it in an article not on the film, particularly mentioning like announcement dates and such, is not relevant to this article. There's an entire article to go into detail with that on. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 13:31, 18 January 2020 (UTC) |
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== "Punchline (character)" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] == |
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[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] |
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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect [[Punchline (character)]]. Please participate in [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 February 26#Punchline (character)|the redirect discussion]] if you wish to do so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <span style="color:green;">[[User:JDDJS|<span style="color:green;">JDDJS</span>]] ([[User talk:JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">talk to me</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">see what I've done</span>]])</span> 23:50, 26 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion == |
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: |
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* [[commons:File:The Joker.jpg|The Joker.jpg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy | 2020-03-05T05:36:53.094291 | The Joker.jpg --> |
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 05:37, 5 March 2020 (UTC) |
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== There's no point in having a redirect for Punchline == |
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if you're not going to mention her in the article. <b>[[User:Serendipodous|<span style="color: #00b;">Serendi</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serendipodous|<sup><span style="color: #b00;">pod</span></sup>]]<span style="color: #00b;">[[User talk: Serendipodous|ous]]</span></b> 17:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:Agreed. {{ul|RoySmith}}, can you delete the redirects [[Punchline (comics)]] and [[Punchline (DC Comics)]] like you deleted [[Punchline (character)]]? [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) <sup>([[Template:Reply to|ping me]])</sup> 17:19, 16 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Erik}}, Hmmm. I'm not really up on [[WP:CSD#Redirects]] but my reading of it makes me think this would be outside the bounds of CSD. So, could I request that you open a discussion at [[WP:RFD]]? Thanks. -- [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 18:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::{{ul|Serendipodous}}, it's up to you. I'm not invested enough to follow up. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) <sup>([[Template:Reply to|ping me]])</sup> 18:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC) |
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::::Sounds like the simplest thing to do would be to add a line about Punchline. <b>[[User:Serendipodous|<span style="color: #00b;">Serendi</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serendipodous|<sup><span style="color: #b00;">pod</span></sup>]]<span style="color: #00b;">[[User talk: Serendipodous|ous]]</span></b> 18:55, 16 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::[[WP: RECENTISM]], the character is like 80 years old, Punchline has been around for what? I don't even know, I've only heard of her in the last few weeks. Can't add every goon the Joker uses. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 19:58, 16 June 2020 (UTC) |
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== Too long, not "normie" enough== |
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I just came here to look up basic info about him and found this incredibly dense triviavomit article that is written for fans who already know the basics and want to dive into the details. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.211.55.242|203.211.55.242]] ([[User talk:203.211.55.242#top|talk]]) 03:44, 19 July 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Super sanity == |
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{{Re|Darkwarriorblake}} I was reading through the '''Origins''' section and I noticed that it doesn't discuss the idea of Joker being "supersane" and constantly reinventing himself in response to the stimuli around him. This was first proposed in ''[[Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth]]'' and was a staple of [[Grant Morrison]]'s Batman saga. I think it is too important to leave out, especially since it ties into the "multiple choice" aspect of his origin. '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 04:43, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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:It's mentioned at the start of the Personality section but it's not called super sanity there, just describes the effect as per your above comment. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 12:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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== Joker skills in combat == |
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{{archivetop|result=Aaand I think we're done here. [[User:TheJoebro64|<small style="color:red">JOE</small>]][[User talk:TheJoebro64|<small>BRO</small>]][[Special:Contributions/TheJoebro64|<span style="color:#D18719">64</span>]] 14:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)}} |
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Can I have the permission to add a little content about the character's skills and abilities in combat, please? [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 20:16, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:"The Joker is portrayed as skilled in melee combat, from his initial appearances when he defeats Batman in a sword fight (nearly killing him), and others when he overwhelms Batman but declines to kill him.[141] He is talented with firearms, although even his guns are theatrical; his long-barreled revolver often releases a flag reading "Bang", and a second trigger-pull launches the flag to skewer its target.[134][142] Although formidable in combat, the Joker's chief asset is his mind.[100]" It is covered in the article, it is not something he is primarily known for nor is it consistent so it does not belong in the manner you added it.[[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 20:18, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Yeah, but it's important to highlight his unpredictability (even for characters capable of predicting adversaries' moves, like Cassandra Cain) and his ability to use any object (like a pencil, a bird feather or a glass) as a weapon. And his ability as hand to hand combatant is not listed at the beginning in the "In-story information" section. [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 20:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:Because, as I just said, the Joker is not notable for combat ability. What he can and cannot do varies wildly from writer to writer, and his ability to hold things and hit things with them is not notable either. Elsewhere in the article, it says "The Joker's '''unpredictable''', homicidal nature makes him one of the most feared supervillains in the DC Universe; the Trickster says in the 1995 miniseries Underworld Unleashed, "When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories."[143][144]" and " Even with his '''unpredictability''' and lack of superhuman powers, the 2007 limited series Salvation Run sees hundreds of villains fall under his spell because they are more afraid of him than the alternative: Luthor.[148]" and "The Joker kills Alexander Luthor, Jr. in Infinite Crisis (2005) for excluding him from the Secret Society of Super Villains, which considers him too '''unpredictable''' for membership.[74][75]" His combat skills are mentioned the appropriate amount as are his relevant skills. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 20:37, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Can I at least list it at the beginning along with the other abilities of his? [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 20:42, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:You don't need my permission to do anything. What I am expressing to you above is that the Joker being able to punch someone does not make it a notable skill. Adding "lethal combatant" is something you can add to anyone holding a gun. The Joker is not known for his combat skills, Batman is known for his combat skills. The Joker is known for his intelligence and weaponry, things that are already mentioned in the article in appropriate terms. So while you don't need my permission to do anything, I do not agree with your edit, and per [[WP:BRD]], you should discuss it here before continuing to add that information, and since I completely disagree with you, we need other parties to become involved. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 22:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Joker is also known for being a lethal combatant with a personal combat style with also knowledge in martial arts (portrayed also in ''Batman:Arkham Asylum'' videogame and in ''Injustice'' and seen also, for example, in the comic book ''Salvation Run'' and The ''Joker: Devil's Advocate'', ''Endgame'' and the story with Cassandra Cain and Joker first encounter, and of course in the animated movie ''Assault On Arkham'' and ''Death Of The Family'', just to mention some), either with and without his weapons and gadgets. He phisically subdued and almost subdued many dangerous adversaries, even physically stronger than him, Batman himself admitted he's a dangerous combatant, with an unpredictable style and a "gibberish" body language, not to mention a superior agility and reflexes, this fact is reported on every wiki, I find very unfair not to mention it in the "In-story information" section, while even Two-Face's, Black Mask's and The Penguin's got that mention. Also his ability as marksman should be mentioned. [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 22:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:I'm rapidly losing the will to live. You're mentioning a lot of non-comic interpretations for a start while talking about an article on the comic version, and someone beating someone or hurting someone in a fight does not make them a skilled combatant. It makes them non-paralysed. I'm not interested in discussing this further with you because you're not grasping it. And per [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]], other articles doing something doesn't make it the right thing. I haven't read the Penguin's article but if it says he is a skilled combatant on there, it needs removing because that's stupid. By this loose grasp of logic, every single comic character needs skilled combatant adding to their page because they've ever thrown a punch. EDIT: No his ability as a marksman should not be mentioned. This isn't a fan wikia. He's not Deadshot. Deadshot's marksman ability should be mentioned. Because the Joker can fire a gun he's a master marksman!? Yeah, I'm checking out of this discussion, go get a third opinion from someone. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 23:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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The comic books I mentioned aren't enough? You're saying he didn't show to possess marksman abilities like Black Mask? The Penguin, with his skills in fencing, judo and boxe (whose training and fights has been even shown in comics) isn't to be considered a skilled combatant? I'm a real and long time expert of the topic, and I know and sure of what I say, with all due respect. [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 23:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:You're not an expert, you're a person who consumes media. Experts write books on topics, they don't argue someone is something because they did something minor related to the subject one time. You're telling me that short, fat Penguin, who uses goons for everything is an expert combatant because of an unsourced paragraph on Wikipedia. Again, I'm happy to wait for a third opinion, because I believe you are wrong. And no, you repeating that Cassandra Cain struggled with him one time because he is so wildly unpredictable is not evidence that one of the Joker's most well known traits is that he is a master of the martial arts. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 00:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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First, I don't simply "consume media", I study it and pop-culture, I consider myself also an enthusiast. Second, Joker showed skills in martial arts in the aforementioned Salvation Run and also against Harley Quinn and many pop-culture sites report of his personal and invented combat style he used even against Batman and the rest of the Bat-Family and various villains. Third, The Penguin was shown to fight also with bare hands (literally) various times, even against Batman and not only thugs. Fourth, I don't like at all being treated like a clueless ignorant, I'm not wrong, I know what I say. Fifth, what's the problem in mentioning Joker's hand-to-hand combat skills (it's to remember that this always dedended on the authors of the stories) in the "In-story information" section at the beginning like has been done for the other villain characters I aforementioned since it's already reported in the "Characterization" section? I don't see the problem, this doesn't make sense. [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 00:17, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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And it's not that the only problem, there are other skills and abilities that are missing in that section. Should be like this: |
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* Criminal mastermind |
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* Expert chemist |
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* Uses weaponized props and toxins |
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* Expert and unpredictable tactician |
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* Formidable agility and reflexes (superior than Batman's) |
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* Skilled hand-to-hand combatant |
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* Inhuman resistance to pain |
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* Immunity to toxins and poisons |
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* Expert in explosives |
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* Indomitable will [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 01:48, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::I said it needs a third party to enter the discussion, not just throw all that crap in while we wait. [[WP: STATUSQUO]] and [[WP:BRD]], read the policies. Inhuman resistance to pain is not a power or a skill, indominitable will? This is firstly about the comics character and no other interpretations in other media, or loose claims he has a certain ability because he trades punches with Batman when its dramatic. It is not a Wikia.[[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 16:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Those are abilities and skills mainly from the comic character, I put even sources, I would not put something taken from other media, I'm getting tired, and his will is really indomitable and it's a fact, even The Spectre and Martian Manhunter failed to control or to read his mind. I know everything and I'm well informed on the character, it's not "crap" (I don't think this language is "appropriate" here, and I don't like it at all), I report only facts and it's a real shame that there is this insistence to restrict and to keep other users from writing them, while there are other similar pages on other characters that report these facts. Why keep doing this? Why should there need a third party? Why this insistence and restriction? I don't understand where is the problem here. [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 16:26, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:A third party is needed because we disagree and since we can't come to an agreement, a third opinion is required. The infobox is for notable powers. The Joker is not known as a master combatant or for an indomintable will, not should wildly inconsistent portrayals mean that any time the Joker does something, i.e. uses a gun, should he be called a master marksman. As I have already mentioned and per [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]], other articles doing stuff is not an excuse. The stuff you keep mentioning isn't even sourced IN THOSE articles, and the vast majority of comic related articles on Wikipedia are of a low quality because a) few people care to work on characters like the Penguin, and b) it's difficult to source things. The two CBR sources you used are written as jokes for the most part. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:17, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Shouldn't be listed at least in the In-story section his formidable agility and reflexes, proven and stated to be superior than Batman's? It's one of his most famous characteristics and abilities. I don't see it in the characterization section either. Also his ability as unpredictable tactician, his knowledge of explosives and also his knowledge of psychology and manipulation of others should be listed. Plus, in the characterization section should be written that is impossible to control or read his chaotic mind and to negotiate with him. Can we agree on this? [[User:Ales Mansay|Ales Mansay]] ([[User talk:Ales Mansay|talk]]) 18:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:The Joker isn't known for his fighting abilities, although he sometimes displays them. This should not be mentioned in the infobox or the lead. [[User:Argento Surfer|Argento Surfer]] ([[User talk:Argento Surfer|talk]]) 14:05, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:I quoted three sections above where it mentions he is unpredictable. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 14:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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{{archivebottom}} |
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== Joker actors == |
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Why is Jared Leto not mentioned as a previous actor for this role? [[User:Redheadmonroe|Redheadmonroe]] ([[User talk:Redheadmonroe|talk]]) 05:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:It was the result of a discussion that we can't endlessly list every actor who plays the Joker because there are several and that's before getting into voice actors, so we list the most prominent, and the 3 up there are all acclaimed in their own ways. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 10:34, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Why is only "Red Hood" listed? Is this alias more notable than the Martha Wayne one for some reasons? [[User:Redjedi23|Redjedi23]] ([[User talk:Redjedi23|talk]]) 16:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2021 == |
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== "[[:Joe Kerr]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] == |
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[[File:Information.svg|30px]] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joe_Kerr&redirect=no Joe Kerr]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 7#Joe Kerr}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 01:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== GA concerns == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Joker (character)|answered=yes}} |
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should we mention that the joker is good at fighting in the "abilities" section? the article mentioned this in the "skills and equipment" section, even with a cited source, so would it be ok to say that hes a good hand-to-hand combatant? [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C51:7C7E:F5D3:F8E6:FB02:3E26:A81F|2600:6C51:7C7E:F5D3:F8E6:FB02:3E26:A81F]] ([[User talk:2600:6C51:7C7E:F5D3:F8E6:FB02:3E26:A81F|talk]]) 02:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*{{not done}} Please format all [[WP:edit requests|edit requests]] in a clear "Change X to Y" style and be as specific as possible what you want to be changed. In this request it's not clear what change is desired to be made. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 00:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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I am concerned that this article no longer meets the [[WP:GA?|good article criteria]]. Some of my concerns are listed below: |
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== Jared Leto == |
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*There is a lot of uncited text throughout the article |
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With ''[[Zack Snyder's Justice League]]'', [[Jared Leto]] will be the first Joker film actor to play the character twice. Should he be mentioned in the start? [[User:TokoChihiro|TokoChihiro]] ([[User talk:TokoChihiro|talk]]) 17:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*At over 12,000 words, [[WP:TOOBIG]] says that it could possibly be trimmed. I think some information can be moved to other articles, and the information summarised here. |
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:What kind of artificial achievement is that? Played a character twice. If you look up the previous discussions, to avoid an endless list of actors, we've gone with the ones that have received significant individual recognition for the roles. It's either limit it, or none at all. Leto appeared in one derided role and is appearing in a remix of an existing film in a capacity we are not aware of. [[User: Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] / [[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE!]] 17:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*There are several unreliable sources used as inline citations, such as [[WP:WHATCULTURE]] and cracked.com |
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Is anyone willing to address these concerns, or should this go to [[WP:GAR]]? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 21:19, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::The first two points are entirely because of the forced integration of the Alternative versions of the Joker article, which is also entirely unsourced. Remove that section and there's no problem. The other references were perfectly fine when it went through GA and are hardly a reason to take it to GAR. [[User:Darkwarriorblake|Darkwarriorblake]] ([[User talk:Darkwarriorblake|talk]]) 21:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{re|Darkwarriorblake}} Thanks for removing a lot of the uncited statements. For the two references cited above, is someone able to replace them with better, reliable sources? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 23:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== "[[:Joker persona]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] == |
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== The Joker's real name has never been revealed in DC comics == |
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[[File:Information.svg|30px]] |
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([[Us Can The joker be added in the category of fictional characters without a name.The only thing known about The Joker's past that is he was once the The Red Hood. |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Joker_persona&redirect=no Joker persona]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 9#Joker persona}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> |
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-- [[Special:Contributions/65.92.246.77|65.92.246.77]] ([[User talk:65.92.246.77|talk]]) 21:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 23:18, 9 October 2024
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 | Alternative versions of Joker was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 21 August 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Joker (character). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Notable aliases
[edit]Why is only "Red Hood" listed? Is this alias more notable than the Martha Wayne one for some reasons? Redjedi23 (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
"Joe Kerr" listed at Redirects for discussion
[edit]
The redirect Joe Kerr has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 7 § Joe Kerr until a consensus is reached. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
GA concerns
[edit]I am concerned that this article no longer meets the good article criteria. Some of my concerns are listed below:
- There is a lot of uncited text throughout the article
- At over 12,000 words, WP:TOOBIG says that it could possibly be trimmed. I think some information can be moved to other articles, and the information summarised here.
- There are several unreliable sources used as inline citations, such as WP:WHATCULTURE and cracked.com
Is anyone willing to address these concerns, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- The first two points are entirely because of the forced integration of the Alternative versions of the Joker article, which is also entirely unsourced. Remove that section and there's no problem. The other references were perfectly fine when it went through GA and are hardly a reason to take it to GAR. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Darkwarriorblake: Thanks for removing a lot of the uncited statements. For the two references cited above, is someone able to replace them with better, reliable sources? Z1720 (talk) 23:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- The first two points are entirely because of the forced integration of the Alternative versions of the Joker article, which is also entirely unsourced. Remove that section and there's no problem. The other references were perfectly fine when it went through GA and are hardly a reason to take it to GAR. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
"Joker persona" listed at Redirects for discussion
[edit]
The redirect Joker persona has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 9 § Joker persona until a consensus is reached.
-- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 21:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
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