Jump to content

Talk:Family tree of the Greek gods: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
ClueBot III (talk | contribs)
m Archiving 4 discussions to Talk:Family tree of the Greek gods/Archive 1. (BOT)
 
(47 intermediate revisions by 15 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header}}
{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=List|1=
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Greece|class=List|importance=NA}}
{{WikiProject Greece|importance=NA}}
{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|class=List|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Mythology|class=List|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Mythology|importance=mid}}
}}
}}
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
| age =2160
| archiveprefix =Talk:Family tree of the Greek gods/Archive
| numberstart =1
| maxarchsize =75000
| header ={{Archive}}
| minkeepthreads =5
| format = %%i
}}{{Archives|bot=ClueBot III|age=90}}
<!-- Template:Setup cluebot archiving -->


== Dionysus? ==
== Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2021 ==


There is no Dionysus [[Special:Contributions/196.12.150.130|196.12.150.130]] ([[User talk:196.12.150.130|talk]]) 05:06, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected|Family tree of the Greek gods|answered=yes}}
Add or change the name for the Primordial God “Eros” to “Phanes” or “Eros Elder” to avoid confusion between differentiating between the the Primordial Eros and the son of Ares and Aphrodite, as they are two separate entities. [[User:Luigi-The-17th|Luigi-The-17th]] ([[User talk:Luigi-The-17th|talk]]) 18:20, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
: {{not done}}. See [[Eros]]. [[User:Ganbaruby|<span style="color:#960596">◢</span> <b><i style="background-color:#F7E3F7; color:#960596"> Ganbaruby! </i></b>]] <small>([[User talk:Ganbaruby|Say hi!]])</small> 06:05, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


:There is Dyonysus [[User:OmegaTurtle443|OmegaTurtle443]] ([[User talk:OmegaTurtle443|talk]]) 21:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
== Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2021 ==

== Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 ==


{{edit semi-protected|Family tree of the Greek gods|answered=yes}}
{{edit semi-protected|Family tree of the Greek gods|answered=yes}}
I want to add english names to "Moirae & Keres" as they are absent. I am going to make it so it says "Moirae- Fate" under it just like it says "Doom" under "Moros" [[User:Aggamr|Aggamr]] ([[User talk:Aggamr|talk]]) 13:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
add [[Hercules]] to family tree as he is the son of [[Zeus]] but his name is not there under the kids of Zeus [[Special:Contributions/173.72.3.91|173.72.3.91]] ([[User talk:173.72.3.91|talk]]) 18:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:It is present as Heracles. [[User:Hyphenation Expert|Hyphenation Expert]] ([[User talk:Hyphenation Expert|talk]]) 19:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:[[File:Full-protection-shackle-no-text.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to [[Wikipedia:Requests for page protection]] if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Terasail|<span style="color:#088; font-weight:800;">Terasail</span>]][[User talk:Terasail|<sup><span style="color:#000;">'''[✉️]'''</span></sup>]] 16:50, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

== The Olympians in Bold Font ==

The Olympians, shown by bold font, are, according to this article: Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hephaestus, Ares, Aphrodite, Hermes, Hades and Persephone. However, the wikipedia page on the Twelve Olympians states: "the twelve Olympians are the major deities of the Greek pantheon, commonly considered to be Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Hermes, and either Hestia or Dionysus." I don't think Hades and Persephone have ever been considered Olympians, especially considering they live in the underworld and not on Mount Olympus. I think their names should be changed to non-bold font and instead replaced by Dionysus and Hestia, perhaps with some sort of note saying that that only one or the other of them is considered ihe 12th Olympian (i.e. there aren't 13 Olympians, just the 12th is different according to different sources). [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 22:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

: I've done it. [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 11:14, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

== Hesperides ==

This page puts the Hesperides as children of Atlas and Pleione. However, Pleione's page does not mention them, and the page on the Hesperides states they are either the daughters of Nyx alone,<ref>Theogony 215</ref> Nyx with Erebus,<ref>Fabulae, Preface. Also, Cicero, De Natura Deorum, iii.41</ref> or Altas with Hesperis,<ref>Diodorus Sicilus, Bibliotheca historica, 4.27.2</ref> (not Pleione), plus there are some other versions too. (Look at the Hesperides page for the full details.)

The Hesperides need to be changed in this chart, as their current position is inaccurate. [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 11:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

: I've changed the Hesperides to children of Nyx in the chart, as that is the version given by Hesiod; I've added a footnote explaining the alternative parentages. [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 09:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

== Chaos, and Gaia, Tartarus, and Eros ==

This family tree puts Gaia, Tartarus, and Eros as children of Chaos. However, [https://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khaos.html Theoi.com (which I know isn't a reliable source)] (see "Family of Khaos" section) says that: "According to Hesiod's Theogony, Gaia, Tartaros and Eros came into being after Khaos. This passage is sometimes misread, making them her offspring." (Also, see the [https://www.theoi.com/TreeHesiodLatin.html Theoi.com family tree of the Theogony], which puts Gaia, Tartarus, and Eros as being born independently of Chaos.)

The original passage from Hesiod is this:
"First Chaos came to be, but next... Earth... and dim Tartarus in the depth of the... Earth, and Eros..." <ref>Theogony, 116</ref>

The passage itself is ambiguous, and can be interpreted either way.

The [[Greek_mythology#Origins_of_the_world_and_the_gods|"Origins of the world and the gods" section in the Greek Mythology page]] says that: "Out of the void [Chaos] emerged Gaia (the Earth) and some other primary divine beings: Eros (Love), the Abyss (the Tartarus)..." The [[Greek primordial deities|Greek primordial deities page]] avoids the problem by simply presenting the quote from the Theogony.


== Kronos and Chronus ==
Should the chart on this page be changed so that Gaia, Tartarus, and Eros are born independently of Chaos, or should it stay how it is? [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 01:28, 2 October 2021 (UTC)


I'm, quite honestly, just Greek Mythos nerd. But, Kronos and Chronos are separate figures. I'm only posting to the talk because I noticed that Chronos, Aion and Kairos(Not to be confused with Caeros) aren't on the tree.<br/>
{{reflist}}
Kronos, occasionally spelt 'Cronos' or 'Cronus', is the Greek Titan and father to the original six gods, as well as Chiron and other repeated figures in Greek myth. Meanwhile Chronos is one of the three Greek personification of time, being in a trio of gods with Aion and Kairos.<br/>
In the mythology, Kronos killed his father, Oranus, for his throne under the guidance of Gaea. After that he took the throne with his older sister, and wife, Rhea. Then comes how Zeus became king. Kronos and Rhea produced five gods (Demeter, Hestia, Hera, Hades, and Poseidon), eating all of them for fear of a prophecy of them taking his throne. The last kid, Zues, was born in secret and hidden, blah, blah, blah. Kronos ate a rock, blah, blah, he dies at the hands of his extremely and justifiably pissed kids, blah, Zeus is now king of the gods. Now, Kronos' fate after this is up for debate, but it's generally accepted that he was cast into Tartarus with many of the other Titans. This does not include Prometheus, Epimetheus, Helios, Oceanus, Atlas, Astraeus or the female Titans. In Orphic poems, he's locked in a cave with Nyx for eternity. Gaea then births Typhon in retribution to more of her children being locked away.<br/>
Also in the mythology, the Orphic version, Chronus (Time itself) is the creator of Aether, Chaos and an egg which later hatches Phanes (The father of the original gods in the Orphic religion). And in the Heptamychos(The seven recesses) by Pherecydes of Syros, his semen was placed in the recesses of the earth and then created the first gods.<br/>
This is could also be just me being picky, but they should all be there in my opinion. Or at least Chronos, since Aion and Kairos don't really have a mythology that's been written down. [[User:IzralliPlayz|IzralliPlayz]] ([[User talk:IzralliPlayz|talk]]) 17:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
:Chronos doesn't fit into this existing tree, which is based mostly upon Hesiod's ''Theogony'' (especially in the upper parts), whereas the genealogical information we have on Chronos comes mostly from Orphic cosmogonies (which don't agree with each other, let alone the Hesiodic tradition!). It wouldn't really be appropriate or accurate to try to attach him to the current tree, as that would entail concatenating genealogical information from disparate sources, which differ significantly in era, context, and purpose.
:In fact, the existence of this page at all is somewhat problematic, as it seems to imply that Greek mythology is static and consistent (a misconception a number of people might have, which we don't want to reinforce), as though these are characters from a novel or movie or something, when, in reality, the various divine genealogies given by numerous different sources certainly cannot be boiled down to a single, coherent chart. Perhaps a better idea would be to restrict ourselves to the ''Theogony'', and rename this page to "Family tree of the Greek gods in Hesiod's ''Theogony''" (or similar), seeing as much of the chart is already based upon that work; this way we wouldn't be mixing together information from different sources in a problematic way, as we are currently. Saying that, we do already have multiple genealogical charts at ''[[Theogony]]'' which do a better job than a single chart could, though, regardless, I do still see geniune encyclopedic usefulness in such a page. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 00:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)


== Where's Gelos? ==
: [[Theogony#The first gods]] also has Gaia, Tartarus and Eros as arising independently of Chaos. The table has this citation: Theogony 116–132; Caldwell, p. 5, table 3; Hard, [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=r1Y3xZWVlnIC&pg=PA694&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false p. 694]; Gantz, p. xxvi. Gantz can be found [https://www.academia.edu/29883249/GANTZ_Timothy_Early_Greek_myth_a_guide_to_literary_and_artistic_sources_Johns_Hopkins_University_Press_1993_ here]; if you scroll all the way down to page 804, you can see that Gaia, Tartarus and Eros are not put as children of Chaos. [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 09:28, 6 November 2021 (UTC)


:: This talk page just seems to be me talking to myself, but if this suffices, then I think the family tree should be changed so that Gaia, Tartarus and Eros are not children of Chaos. [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] ([[User talk:Dave12121212|talk]]) 09:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
I want to know if anyone would add Gelos the personification of laughter to the family tree [[User:OmegaTurtle443|OmegaTurtle443]] ([[User talk:OmegaTurtle443|talk]]) 21:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{reply|OmegaTurtle443}} His page currently doesn't ascribe a genealogy to him, so he wouldn't connect to anyone on the chart. Probably this page should be reworked per my comment in the preceding section. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 22:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)


== The name for Ouranos is wrong ==
::: I think you should just go ahead and change it.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)


:::: Yep, I will. This is a point which is the cause of frequent argumentation, though, so I wanted to get the opinion of at least one other person before changing the chart. Plus, this matter was brought up many years ago in 2012, and it was decided to not change it. --— [[User:Dave12121212|Dave12121212]] [[User talk:Dave12121212|]] 02:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Uranus is the roman name while Ouranos is the greek name saying that everything else has the Greek name Uranus should be changed to Ouranos [[User:OmegaTurtle443|OmegaTurtle443]] ([[User talk:OmegaTurtle443|talk]]) 21:58, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
:No, our page for the Greek god Uranus is at [[Uranus (mythology)|Uranus]]. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 22:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 04:16, 24 November 2024

Dionysus?

[edit]

There is no Dionysus 196.12.150.130 (talk) 05:06, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is Dyonysus OmegaTurtle443 (talk) 21:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024

[edit]

add Hercules to family tree as he is the son of Zeus but his name is not there under the kids of Zeus 173.72.3.91 (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is present as Heracles. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kronos and Chronus

[edit]

I'm, quite honestly, just Greek Mythos nerd. But, Kronos and Chronos are separate figures. I'm only posting to the talk because I noticed that Chronos, Aion and Kairos(Not to be confused with Caeros) aren't on the tree.
Kronos, occasionally spelt 'Cronos' or 'Cronus', is the Greek Titan and father to the original six gods, as well as Chiron and other repeated figures in Greek myth. Meanwhile Chronos is one of the three Greek personification of time, being in a trio of gods with Aion and Kairos.
In the mythology, Kronos killed his father, Oranus, for his throne under the guidance of Gaea. After that he took the throne with his older sister, and wife, Rhea. Then comes how Zeus became king. Kronos and Rhea produced five gods (Demeter, Hestia, Hera, Hades, and Poseidon), eating all of them for fear of a prophecy of them taking his throne. The last kid, Zues, was born in secret and hidden, blah, blah, blah. Kronos ate a rock, blah, blah, he dies at the hands of his extremely and justifiably pissed kids, blah, Zeus is now king of the gods. Now, Kronos' fate after this is up for debate, but it's generally accepted that he was cast into Tartarus with many of the other Titans. This does not include Prometheus, Epimetheus, Helios, Oceanus, Atlas, Astraeus or the female Titans. In Orphic poems, he's locked in a cave with Nyx for eternity. Gaea then births Typhon in retribution to more of her children being locked away.
Also in the mythology, the Orphic version, Chronus (Time itself) is the creator of Aether, Chaos and an egg which later hatches Phanes (The father of the original gods in the Orphic religion). And in the Heptamychos(The seven recesses) by Pherecydes of Syros, his semen was placed in the recesses of the earth and then created the first gods.
This is could also be just me being picky, but they should all be there in my opinion. Or at least Chronos, since Aion and Kairos don't really have a mythology that's been written down. IzralliPlayz (talk) 17:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chronos doesn't fit into this existing tree, which is based mostly upon Hesiod's Theogony (especially in the upper parts), whereas the genealogical information we have on Chronos comes mostly from Orphic cosmogonies (which don't agree with each other, let alone the Hesiodic tradition!). It wouldn't really be appropriate or accurate to try to attach him to the current tree, as that would entail concatenating genealogical information from disparate sources, which differ significantly in era, context, and purpose.
In fact, the existence of this page at all is somewhat problematic, as it seems to imply that Greek mythology is static and consistent (a misconception a number of people might have, which we don't want to reinforce), as though these are characters from a novel or movie or something, when, in reality, the various divine genealogies given by numerous different sources certainly cannot be boiled down to a single, coherent chart. Perhaps a better idea would be to restrict ourselves to the Theogony, and rename this page to "Family tree of the Greek gods in Hesiod's Theogony" (or similar), seeing as much of the chart is already based upon that work; this way we wouldn't be mixing together information from different sources in a problematic way, as we are currently. Saying that, we do already have multiple genealogical charts at Theogony which do a better job than a single chart could, though, regardless, I do still see geniune encyclopedic usefulness in such a page. – Michael Aurel (talk) 00:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where's Gelos?

[edit]

I want to know if anyone would add Gelos the personification of laughter to the family tree OmegaTurtle443 (talk) 21:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@OmegaTurtle443: His page currently doesn't ascribe a genealogy to him, so he wouldn't connect to anyone on the chart. Probably this page should be reworked per my comment in the preceding section. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name for Ouranos is wrong

[edit]

Uranus is the roman name while Ouranos is the greek name saying that everything else has the Greek name Uranus should be changed to Ouranos OmegaTurtle443 (talk) 21:58, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, our page for the Greek god Uranus is at Uranus. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]