Talk:Amber Heard: Difference between revisions
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== Edit Request on 12 December 23 == |
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== Lede == |
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The penultimate sentence in the second paragraph of section Personal Life reads "... adding that Heard and her 'shared 5 wonderful years together and remain close to this day.'" This is clunky and grammatically improper. I recommend replacing "Heard and her" with "she and Heard". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Appropriately Jaded|Appropriately Jaded]] ([[User talk:Appropriately Jaded#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Appropriately Jaded|contribs]]) 22:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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{{ping|Emir of Wikipedia}}, final section to be discussed, the lede! I've added an extra source from ''Aquaman's'' article for the box office (although both sources could be moved to the article body?) and have cut the detail considerably. It would be helpful if you could let me know what you think! [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 22:30, 26 January 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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:I think you cutting it down has improved it, but I am not sure if the Aquaman box office should be mentioned in the lead (or the article at all but I can only see it in the lead right now). Also not sure about the sentence saying she was in The Stand. Is the fact that it was a miniseries on CBS really such an important part of Heard's life that it should be in the lead. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 21:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Emir of Wikipedia}} If we don't mention how the films fared, then the article will simply be a list of films. ''Aquaman'' is the most successful film in Heard's career thus far (her only A-list film) and an important career milestone (first big-name studio film, first big box office success). Therefore it is necessary to mention it in this context; it's also how pop culture ledes are usually written. I do agree there's no point in going into specifics (i.e. exact amounts in different markets etc.), but to not mention it at all would be, quite frankly, weird. It is also mentioned in the career section. ''The Stand'' can be removed, I mainly left it in the lede as it is currently quite short. Feel free to delete it.[[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 21:42, 31 January 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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:::{{ping|Emir of Wikipedia}} I've deleted the mention of ''The Stand'', but have left the ''Aquaman'' info due to the reasons outlined above. The lede is now significantly shorter and more concise (which seems to indeed be the custom – my previous experience is mostly from editing pre-1960s pop culture articles, hence the longer ledes). Do you think the tag can be removed? [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 09:54, 10 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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::::I still don't think the box office should be in, unless mentioned proximately by the sources. Possibly be mentioned at [[James Wan]] or [[Jason Momoa]], but that is a stretch. We are an encyclopaedia not a news article. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 15:29, 20 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Quite frankly, I'm getting quite tired of this, but you really need to explain yourself better. How is a film's reception NOT relevant to an actor's article, especially when it is their first major studio film and a box office success? Are you honestly of the opinion that ledes should be simply lists, with no elaboration on what the significance of the film is to their career? [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 20:51, 20 March 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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::::::You need to explain yourself, the [[WP:ONUS]] is on the one who wants to include information. I did not say a film's reception is not relevant. This is meant to be encyclopedia article, not a news article of resume for Heard. What you put in was [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] as it was linking information in way the [[WP:RS]]'s had not done. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::I have explained myself above. Copying it here again: "''Aquaman'' is the most successful film in Heard's career thus far (her only A-list film) and an important career milestone (first big-name studio film, first big box office success). Therefore it is necessary to mention it in this context; it's also how pop culture ledes are usually written. I do agree there's no point in going into specifics (i.e. exact amounts in different markets etc.), but to not mention it at all would be, quite frankly, weird." You keep saying that this would somehow go against WP:Not news, but please do explain in more detail exactly how. FYI, ''Aquaman'' was released in 2018, over 2 years ago. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 16:14, 27 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::Furthermore, if you come to an article and start deleting material that is not clearly vandalism or libelous, and get reverted, you should be prepared to discuss it and reach consensus in Talk prior to deleting said material again. This is basic courtesy.[[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 16:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::That is your subjective weighting of what you consider the most important part of her article. We are meant to summarise what the [[WP:RS]]'s say, not put in "an important career milestone". It is not how pop culture ledes are usually written. It is not mentioned at [[James Wan]] or [[Jason Momoa]], which I said above. It is not mentioned at [[Chris Evans (actor)]] (GA), [[Chris Hemsworth]], [[Mark Ruffalo]], [[Scarlett Johansson]] (FA), [[Chris Pratt]], [[Paul Rudd]], [[Benedict Cumberbatch]], [[Tom Holland]], [[Chadwick Boseman]] (GA), [[Evangeline Lilly]], [[Brie Larson]] (FA), [[Josh Brolin]], or [[Samuel L. Jackson]]. I have never brought up [[WP:NOTNEWS]], you seem to have misunderstood (and seem to be describing [[WP:RECENTISM]] anyways). The [[WP:ONUS]] is on the editor who wants to include information, not exclude. If you have been reverted as per [[WP:BRD]], then you should be prepared to discuss instead of reinserting. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 16:25, 27 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Emir, how is it relevant what's mentioned or not in other DCEU actors/directors profiles? Can you explain? As for James Wan and Jason Momoa, the only other people in this list with any connection to ''Aquaman'', both of them are much more established than Heard. Hence naturally ''Aquaman''s success may also get different weight in their ledes. The lede is supposed to summarize the contents of the article. The article clearly cites RS sources saying this was a.) Heard's first major role; b.) the film was a major box-office success. Reflecting this in the lede is part of summarizing the contents of the article. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 16:30, 27 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::You said {{tq|it's also how pop culture ledes are usually written.}}. I was giving you examples (including a GA and FA) that prove your statement is wrong, that it how what wrought is relevant. Those examples were from MCU actors not DCEU actors/directors, so not sure why you are saying that. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 22:14, 27 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Apologies, I'm not into these types of films hence the confusion between MCU/DCEU! If you take a look at for example Johansson's, Evans', Boseman's, and Larson's ledes, none of them just list films, but indicate the significance to their career. E.g. "Larson's ''breakthrough came with a leading role in the acclaimed independent drama'' Short Term 12 (2013), [...] The 2017 adventure film Kong: Skull Island ''marked her first big-budget release''" or "Transitioning to the screen, he ''landed his first major role'' as a series regular on Persons Unknown in 2010, and ''his breakthrough performance'' came in 2013 as baseball player Jackie Robinson in the biographical film 42." |
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:::::::::::My suggestion for a compromise is this: "Heard had her first major studio role in the DC Extended Universe superhero film ''Justice League'' (2017), in which she played Atlantean queen Mera. She reprised that role opposite Jason Momoa in ''Aquaman'' (2018)." This would still convey the meaning that this role has to her career, without going into too much detail on ''Aquaman'''s success.[[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 10:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::{{ping|Emir of Wikipedia}} ? [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 09:16, 31 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::You do not need to apologise for not being into certain types of films, but if you don't know about them then don't try to use them as evidence to support your argument. If there are problems with other articles then go and fix them, don't try to ruin this article to make it consistent with others. I am not going to check the others right this second, but I imagine those statements are sourced and not an editors own interpretation. Your suggestion is an improvement though, I will admit. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 18:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2023 == |
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=== More lede === |
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The divorce and suits are a limited part of the article, but fully half of the lede. |
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{{edit semi-protected|Amber Heard|answered=yes}} |
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The last para could be trimmed to |
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The introduction to the bio reads as if this person did not abuse another person. She was found publicly guilty in a government court of law. Please amend the page bio/intro to Red as such. Sincerely, survivors of abuse. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:37B2:F500:4494:D685:FCEC:671A|2600:1700:37B2:F500:4494:D685:FCEC:671A]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:37B2:F500:4494:D685:FCEC:671A|talk]]) 03:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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<blockquote> |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> also see [[WP:DUE]] [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 03:29, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Heard was married to actor Johnny Depp from 2015 to 2017. Their divorce drew media attention as she alleged that he had been abusive during their relationship. |
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</blockquote> |
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possibly adding "and each later sued the other for defamation". Leaving details and amplifiers to the appropriate section. <span style="color:#666">– [[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|<span style="color:#f90;"> +</span>]]</span> 16:28, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:Arguably, Heard is probably most widely known for this debacle. I do think it should be shortened, but I don't know how to do that without losing some of the meaning. "and each later sued the other for defamation" leaves out completely that another suit found Heard's claims to be substantiated. Hopefully there will be clarity to this after the second libel trial. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 10:54, 3 March 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2023 == |
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:I've [[special:diff/1073827156|listed]] at [[Wikipedia:Third opinion#Active disagreements]]. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 21:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC) |
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::There are more than 2 editors engaged in this discussion. Having said that, i feel that the lede should be shortened as described above. [[User:Bonewah|Bonewah]] ([[User talk:Bonewah|talk]]) 20:34, 25 February 2022 (UTC) |
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::IMHO, the lede seems about right as it stands, given the notability of the case. [[User:Chumpih|<span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chumpih|t]]</sup> 23:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC) |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Amber Heard|answered=yes}} |
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== Mention of tapes == |
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Clarifying as 'bad' actress inside of just actress under her listings. [[Special:Contributions/96.45.151.118|96.45.151.118]] ([[User talk:96.45.151.118|talk]]) 23:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 01:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Grammar == |
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The article not making mention of the audio tapes released showing Heard confessing to abuse is at best intellectual dishonesty. If some people believe the tapes to be taken out of context, they should add in that context rather than censoring mention of the tapes completely. Anything else cannot possibly taken to be in good faith. |
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Sentence under Personal Life reads: |
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Amber Heard is quoted in the tape as saying “I can't promise you I won't get physical again. God I fucking sometimes get so mad I lose it” and “Tell the world, Johnny, tell them, Johnny Depp, I Johnny Depp, a man, I'm a victim too of domestic violence”. Saying that her claims of self defense after the fact constitute infallible evidence against this tape and proof that it shouldn’t even be mentioned are purely dishonest. [[User:Snokalok|Snokalok]] ([[User talk:Snokalok|talk]]) 02:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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A statement was then issued by Heard's publicist in which van Ree said that Heard had been "wrongfully" accused and that the incident had been "misinterpreted and over-sensationalized", while also recalling "hints of misogynistic attitudes toward us which later appeared to be homophobic when they found out we were domestic partners and not just 'friends'" and adding that Heard and her "shared 5 wonderful years together and remain close to this day." |
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:This is your interpretation of it, adding it to WP would be adding your POV (btw, the quotes you have written here come from two different tapes). The High Court of England and Wales found that there's overwhelming evidence that Depp abused Heard. The tape, as Heard has stated, contains discussion of self-defense, and she has been clear about this since when she filed for divorce (and at that stage, Depp didn't even accuse her of abuse... in fact their joint statement says nobody lied). It is common for abusers to try to twist self-defense as abuse. The tapes are snippets of discussions from Heard and Depp's arguments, not confessions. Please also see section VII: 169-176 in [https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Judgment-FINAL.pdf the High Court ruling]. Please also note, from the same file, that Depp was completely unable to present any evidence of the abuse he alleges to have suffered. There is 0 actual evidence that Heard was abusive towards Depp. There is ample evidence that Depp was abusive towards Heard. There is also ample evidence that Depp is conducting a smear campaign (via Adam Waldman), claiming this tape is about her being abusive is part of it. |
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:: "There is 0 actual evidence that Heard was abusive towards Depp." This claim is utterly unconscionable. There is a tape of her gaslighting and admitting to her abuse. "Who are you going to believe, the WP talk page or your lying ears?" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.57.55.50|24.57.55.50]] ([[User talk:24.57.55.50#top|talk]]) </small> |
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Suggest that ’Heard and she’ should replace ‘Heard and her’ in last portion of the sentence [[Special:Contributions/98.114.148.47|98.114.148.47]] ([[User talk:98.114.148.47|talk]]) 11:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:To add a mention of this tape would be going against facts, [[WP:BLP]], and [[WP:AVOIDVICTIM]]. It would also make WP part of Depp's online smear campaign.[[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 09:55, 15 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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:: Your comment reveals that WP is being used to shield Amber Heard from the consequences of her domestic abuse. It's not a "smear campaign" to be a brave survivor of domestic abuse and speak publicly about it. This article is re-victimizing Depp by mischaracterizing his brave admission of being abused publicly as a "smear"; WP is blaming the victim. [[Special:Contributions/24.57.55.50|24.57.55.50]] ([[User talk:24.57.55.50|talk]]) 13:51, 29 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::: 100% agree [[User:Mirddes|Mirddes]] ([[User talk:Mirddes|talk]]) 13:27, 12 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2024 == |
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Multiple things you’ve said have been proven objectively false - there is physical evidence of the abuse Depp suffered, namely, his finger literally being removed and shown as such. Additionally, courts are not the arbitrators of what is true and right - once upon a time the US supreme court ruled that slavery was okay. Once upon a time, the SCOTUS ruled that banning homosexuality was okay. Once upon a time, the UK house of lords ruled BDSM can never legally be considered consensual, and I don’t even need to tell you how many rulings the UK legal system has struck against trans people. Courts are not the arbitrators of truth, they’re the arbitrators of government action. |
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{{edit semi-protected|Amber Heard|answered=yes}} |
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Furthermore, I’d argue that not including the tape is a far worse act of POV than that, and that you’d be perpetuating the smear campaign committed against Heard by her victim, Johnny Depp. |
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Remove "The female officer who conducted the arrest—herself a lesbian—subsequently posted on Facebook to say, "I am so not homophobic or misogynistic! The arrest was made because an assault occurred (I witnessed it)."[133]" |
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This information came from a false Facebook post. It turns out that this female officer was only an airport security officer who arrived much after the arrest. The arrest was made by two male cops who later dropped the false charges. |
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Additionally, you seem to be treating Heard’s words as automatically true, and Depp’s as guilty until proven innocent. This is further POV, and in clear violation of wikipedia policy. The only objective thing to do would be to include the tape, and then include Heard’s statements on the contents. Otherwise you yourself are enforcing your own POV that Depp is automatically guilty and Heard is automatically innocent, and censoring any facts that may throw that view into question. This is again, your point of view, but not reflective of the truth of the discourse. If you like we can even include a “criticism” section, but the bottom line remains - the tape is relevant evidence, and if you believe it to not be reflective of the full picture, then the appropriate action is to add more information as to why, not to censor events completely to reinforce your worldview. [[User:Snokalok|Snokalok]] ([[User talk:Snokalok|talk]]) 06:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:Sure, law reflects the society it exists in and many laws are found to be abhorrent by later generations. That's why laws get changed. As it stands though, a 21st century High Court has found that there is overwhelming evidence from multiple sources backing up Heard's version of the events, not Depp's. Depp didn't lose on a technicality, he lost because the evidence —much of it discussions he had with his staff and friends and which his lawyers at first tried to prevent NGN's legal team from accessing— backed up Heard's account. You're free to believe that this is part of a grand conspiracy or an outdated legal system (how though? also remember that it was Depp who began these legal proceedings), but as it stands, there's no evidence to back it up. As for the finger, the judge found that on evaluating all the available evidence, Depp caused the injury himself while intoxicated and enraged. Again, POV, conspiracy theories and tabloid/smear campaign material do not have a place on WP.[[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 08:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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Here's the actually reference: |
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::: |
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https://variety.com/2016/biz/news/amber-heard-domestic-violence-ex-girlfriend-responds-1201791500/ [[Special:Contributions/2600:1702:28D0:2720:CECB:3BB1:30E0:FA95|2600:1702:28D0:2720:CECB:3BB1:30E0:FA95]] ([[User talk:2600:1702:28D0:2720:CECB:3BB1:30E0:FA95|talk]]) 03:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{notdone}} The reference isn't very reliable, which I understand because it would be pretty impossible to get any good source for this. The source already here is fairly equal in quality, however; but the date it was pusblished is more recent than the date on the one your provided, so that's what makes it a little better for me. [[User:Coulomb1|Coulomb1]] ([[User talk:Coulomb1|talk]]) 22:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC) |
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You’re missing the critical point though - it’s that courts are not infallible, judges are not infallible. Judicial rulings are simply opinions issued by one or more people whom both sides are trying to convince. The ruling as it stands doesn’t mean history proceeded that way, it simply means that one team of lawyers was able to convince a group of people of it better than the other team. Legal rulings do not dictate truth, they dictate a judge’s opinion, and the fact remains that these tapes being released is a relevant event that has had a significant effect on the course of future events, and to censor it would be to deny critical context to said future events in the name of preserving your and the high court’s point of view, which is just that, their point of view. It’s honesty to list their ruling and explain why they ruled that way, it’s not honest to intentionally censor any information or evidence that contradicts their ruling because all their ruling is is the point of view of someone given authority. |
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== Concerning a past claim about the settlement between Depp & Heard not invalidating Depp's lawsuit... == |
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Also for the record, Heard also said under oath that she’d donate her winnings, and that has yet to occur, so clearly her testimony is not as automatically true as you might think. [[User:Snokalok|Snokalok]] ([[User talk:Snokalok|talk]]) 04:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:The High Court found that Heard's allegations were proven to a civil standard, and that neither the claim that she was conducting some elaborate hoax against Depp nor that she was violent towards Depp except in self-defense (of which she has been clear ever since she filed divorce) were backed by evidence. His evidence included these tapes. As I've now said several times, you're free to keep thinking the way you do, but that's not what we should write in Wikipedia, because information from reliable sources does not support the way you want to think about this case. I would also seriously encourage you to be more critical with the sources you use and to learn more about this case before making such claims – that you do not seem to know that the statements you give above come from two separate tapes and that the London trial was not a jury trial do not give the impression that you actually know a lot about this case beyond tabloid headlines. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 10:14, 18 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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So, according to a posting on an archived page for this talk page, the claim was made that the jury's verdict against Amber Heard, brought on by Johnny Depp's defamation suit, still stands despite the recent settlement between the two; said settlement which states: Amber doesn't have to admit guilt, she's not bound by a gag order/NDA, and that Depp would receive a payment of $1M from Amber's homeowner's insurer, Travelers. |
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I never said it was a jury trial, but many court cases involve multiple judges and thus I felt it best to have my generalized statement on the nature of civil suits reflect that. The fact that you don’t realize this says to me that you hold a very limited knowledge of how court cases in general actually work. |
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Now, the claim was made that, according to experienced lawyer David Pardue (iplitigate on Twitter/X, David Pardue: Trade Secrets, Business and Employment Litigation Partner at Parker Poe on LinkedIn; partner at multiple law firms over the years), [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzbQIwWWIAAQYSo?format=png&name=small defamation with malice is not covered by insurance, meaning that, for Travelers to make payment of $1M to Depp as agreed by the settlement, Travelers would insist that Depp acknowledge no malice in exchange for the $1M payout. So, that would then mean, if there's no malice], then there's no grounds for Depp's lawsuit. And, no grounds would then imply a nullification/invalidation. |
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Regardless, you continue to miss two facts: 1. Wikipedia, per its NPOV rules, takes an international perspective, and thus one country’s courts’ rulings do not dictate truth for it. 2. Even if Wikipedia were taking an anglocentric view, the fact remains that the results of court cases - and especially civil cases - do not reflect absolute reality, they reflect the beliefs of one court and determine what action that court will take. |
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And, in fact, during New York Marine And General's lawsuit against Amber, even they acknowledge that [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7I2eVNWsAAlpcH?format=png&name=900x900 the settlement reached between Depp & Heard resulted in the dismissal of an underlying action] ([https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7I2gBvW8AA8EBf?format=jpg&name=medium the underlying action being Depp's lawsuit against Heard]).<br> |
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By your logic, we’d have to completely rewrite our page on women’s rights because a court in Saudi Arabia took a very restrictive view on them. By your logic, we’d have to delete our Tiananmen Square article entirely because a court in China said it never happened. Simply put, the words of a court in the UK are just that, the words of a few people given limited legal power in one country. If you want to have in the page that the high court found no evidence of DV against Depp, fine, that’s a relevant finding, but enforcing that viewpoint as objective fact and deleting any mention of relevant events that throw that viewpoint into question is textbook violation of the NPOV policy and puts the possibility that you’re not acting in good faith on the table. |
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In fact, as pointed out by users on Twitter for a similar legal situation, [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6SfpzlWAAAbvw3?format=jpg&name=medium "A settlement during the appellate process terminates the litigation, just as a pre-trial settlement does. Normally, the case is simply dismissed..."]. |
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So, taking all that into consideration, that would then mean the statement by Depp lawyer Camille Vasquez & her law firm, Brown Rudnick, where the claim is made that the jury's verdict still stands, is technically & legally incorrect, as recognized by New York Marine And General. |
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I’d like to bring up another example of what a more neutral coverage of a court case looks like. Consider, the wikipedia article on the OJ Simpson murder case. It says he was ruled innocent, which he was, however it also goes in depth listing the various evidence against Simpson, including DNA evidence placing him at the crime scene, and mention of documented evidence of OJ Simpson beating the hell out of his ex-wife, one of the murder victims. In keeping with the neutrality policy, like with the OJ case - even of a single court’s ruling says the alleged abuser is innocent, the documented evidence is still considered relevant to mention, and thus it is worth mentioning. |
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Oh, and as far as links to two court documents referencing payments of $10.5M & $2M, the individual who posted those apparently isn't aware of the [https://web.archive.org/web/20221219164259/https://www.tmz.com/2022/12/19/amber-heard-paying-1-million-settle-johnny-depp-defamation-case/ settlement stipulating a $1M payout to Depp from Amber's insurer, Travelers]. |
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By your logic, we’d have to delete the mention of evidence of OJ abusing his wife and the mention of all the other evidence against him, because he was acquitted of her murder and never convicted for beating her (and thus is considered innocent under the American legal system). |
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And so, for the articles for Amber Heard, Johnny Depp, and Depp's defamation lawsuit against Heard to state otherwise about the verdict & settlement would therefore render those articles currently incorrect/untrue. [[User:ClarkKentWannabe|ClarkKentWannabe]] ([[User talk:ClarkKentWannabe|talk]]) 15:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:I've said what I have to say on this, and you're refusing to understand that BLPs need to include only material from reliable sources and only include material that has very good grounds for inclusion, especially when it comes to the very serious and potentially libelous claims you are making. We're going around in circles, this is just not a productive use of my time. Could an admin or other experienced Wikipedian intervene, the above user is repeatedly adding material that goes against BLP criteria and refuses to stop. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 11:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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:Hi, there are so many Points wrong with this Comment: |
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Could an admin please address this user making changes that violate wikipedia’s neutrality? I’ve cited everything with reliable sources, specifically GlobalNews.ca and Medium. You are the one who continues to censor major events relevant to the topic on the grounds that a single court in a single country sided against Depp. By your logic, we’d have to delete the Tiananmen Square article because a court in China denied its occurence. You are violating the international perspective section of wikipedia’s NPOV, simple as. [[User:Snokalok|Snokalok]] ([[User talk:Snokalok|talk]]) 12:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:1. This constitues [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR Wikipedia:OR] which you shouldn't do. |
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:Medium is [[WP:USERGENERATED]] / [[WP:SELFPUB]] and can't be used as a source for a [[WP:BLP]]-sensitive claim (even the [[WP:SPS]] exceptions for subject-matter experts and the like don't apply to such BLP-sensitive claims; {{tq|'''Never''' use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.}}) GlobalNews.ca is probably usable, but given that this is an obviously [[WP:EXCEPTIONAL]] statement and highly BLP-sensitive, we should wait until we have more sources - if it is broadly interpreted the way you state, then there should be a large number of high-quality sources for something so shocking, rather than a single source from an entertainment section mostly consisting of a transcript. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 21:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:2. Even though this is a Lawyer he is speculating about what happenedwhich could only be added in the form of:"A legal Expert speculated about..." if it should be added at all because He is a primary Source for his Opinion and also constitutes [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR Wikipedia:OR]. |
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:3. Appart from Encyclopediac reasons your legal reasoning is also pretty bad: |
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:a. New York Marine talking about a underlying case in the legal theory of Heards legal team and them naming the underlying case in this legal battle does not mean that they are meaning the same case. They are also talking about the argument in general... |
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:b. Only a court can change a verdict, that means there would be some kind of legal document (court order) to make it public that the verdict has changed. For a Settlement to vacate a Verdict The parties would have to file a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacated_judgment Vacatur] |
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:c. I hate people who only provide misleading Information. I present the full Text of the [https://repository.uclawsf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3257&context=hastings_law_journal Hastings Law Journal about Settlement Agreements] on page 21 the following line can be found "But sometimes the parties ask the court to do more: to vacate the subordinate court's judgment in the case." The Appeal and the Court case of the lower court are 2 distinct cases and a settlement like written before only stopps the ongoing court case. If you copy arguments from twitter at least check if they are correct... |
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:Also please if you want to argue about hot topics please stay on twitter or provide [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS Wikipedia:RS] that actually express the opinion which you want to include. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.220.90.128|94.220.90.128]] ([[User talk:94.220.90.128#top|talk]]) 14:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::OK then. |
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::Will you take the word of Johnny Depp supporter, YouTube law channel operator (a.k.a. LawTuber), & lawyer Nick Rekieta (Rekieta Law on YouTube), who actually came right out and stated [https://twitter.com/DaniMet1/status/1608515552947097600 the settlement "invalidates the jury verdict, legally speaking.] |
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::He then goes on to state [https://twitter.com/DaniMet1/status/1608515557309009921 that if in the settlement agreement she never made any admissions or concessions and if there is no gag order (she confirmed these in her IG post), then, legally, "Amber Heard did not defame Johnny Depp."] |
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::And then, further going on to say [https://twitter.com/DaniMet1/status/1608515561784504321 he rejects the idea that the verdict stands and that the $1 million was for settling only the appeal]. |
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::So, from the looks of it, I don't see how I'm engaging in OR; I'm simply, in a sense, repeating not just what experienced lawyers (who apparently have LOTS of knowledge about law in this situation) are saying about the case, but also what Amber's own insurance company legally declared about what the settlement entails during their (failed) legal action against her. And, to top it off, pointing out how other legal situations are even implying that a post-trial settlement very much has the power to nullify/invalidate a jury's verdict, much like how a pre-trial settlement does the same. |
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::Or, is it that, even with Depp supporter & LawTuber Rekieta essentially conceding that what Depp's side is saying about the settlement is actually wholly wrong & completely inaccurate, you'll still (apparently falsely) claim the settlement only cover the appeals & the verdict still stands? I don't get how a lawyer isn't considered a reliable source when it come to matters pertaining to the law. |
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::In fact, did some research through Google, and came upon some very interesting information: [https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2007/R3511.pdf Through posttrial actions, trial courts can reduce awards, '''completely overturn juries' decisions''', or grant a new trial.] (emphasis placed is my own). |
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::So, at this point, I suppose you're still sticking to your guns, despite mounting "evidence" (if you will) that the post-trial settlement between Johnny Depp & Amber Heard does indeed invalidate/nullify the jury's verdict against Amber Heard, besides the fact of Depp receiving $1M from Travelers in exchange for his agreement of having to declare Amber did not defame him, thereby completely & legally striking his lawsuit from the legal record books? |
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::Turns out, seems like I'm not the one putting forth misleading information; plus, I'm not the one ignoring legally-declared law coming from an insurance company. And, I'm not the one putting a blind eye to the fact that the law states a trial court can indeed overturn a jury's verdict based on post trial action, like a settlement between parties involved. [[User:ClarkKentWannabe|ClarkKentWannabe]] ([[User talk:ClarkKentWannabe|talk]]) 14:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::To prove that you are not doing [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR Wikipedia:OR] you provide further primary sources... like i said "Only a court can change a verdict" your google research actually supports that but you emphasised the wrong part: Through posttrial actions, '''trial courts''' can reduce awards, completely overturn juries' decisions, or grant a new trial... |
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:::Is Nick Rekieta a court and has he put out a court order? No and even if he were he would not be the appropriate one (that would be the Fairfax County Circuit Court or the Virginia Court of Appeals). Is He a Reliable source or publish it in one? No. Please get better Sources. For Example a court document saying whatever you want to include, or a reputable Newspaper reporting on it. |
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:::Your mounting "evidence" is People on the Internet saying things (yes even Lawyers are People and they can be wrong). Someone has to verify that Information and no that can't be you... |
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:::You were the one with the Picture from Twitter showing only a part of an article which showed the opposite when read in full. Also are you a legal expert since you seem to think that your Interpretation of legal writing is worth anything? |
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:::Please read [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR Wikipedia:OR], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS Wikipedia:RS] or [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SPS Wikipedia:Verifiability] <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.220.68.176|94.220.68.176]] ([[User talk:94.220.68.176#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::::So, in other words, it's EXACTLY what I said in the 4th-to-last section of my previous comment. It's sad when there are people not wanting to admit they're wrong even when all the evidence available is calling them a liar. |
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::::Honestly, I remember a friend of mine dealing with someone like you when it came to not just the article for the [[Star Television Network]], but [[American Broadcasting Companies]] as well. In both situations, the person like you didn't want to admit they were wrong about the information being presented. |
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::::But, after a long enough time, the person like you realized they weren't at all in the right. By that point, they no longer wanted to show their face for the articles, which allowed my friend to finally put the right information in those articles. |
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::::So far, two lawyers have admitted, based on the terms (Amber doesn't have to admit guilt; she's not bound by gag order/NDA; & Depp gets $1M from Travelers in exchange for admitting malice doesn't exist) of the settlement between Depp & Heard, that the settlement does indeed nullify/invalidate Depp's lawsuit. One of the two insurance companies covering Amber, through paperwork for the failed lawsuit they filed against her, has stated through said paperwork that the settlement essentially dismissed his lawsuit. A statement from a case not related to Depp & Heard, though similar in legal circumstances, has stated that, very much like a pre-trial settlement, a post-trial settlement can also terminate a lawsuit. |
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::::For you saying that lawyers can be wrong, it would very much seem like that's EXACTLY the situation with Depp lawyer Camille Vasquez, the same woman who, during the trial, said that Amber never thought she'd have to face her abuser. In fact, other legal experts have even pointed out that Azcarate has committed judicial malpractice by even allowing the trial to take place in her courtroom, as neither Depp nor Heard have ANY jurisdictional relation to Virginia. |
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::::At this point, maybe I'm just better off following in the footsteps of my friend & waiting for when a reliable news outlet reports on the truth of the details of the settlement. When that happens, & it turns out Vasquez & Brown Rudnick are completely WRONG about what the settlement implies, and when you end up no longer wanting to show your face for this article, it will allow me to be the one to insert the report by that news outlet into the article, thereby showing everyone that Depp indeed willingly dropped his lawsuit in return for that $1M from Travelers, while also proving that Amber did indeed finally win the feud against Depp. |
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::::So yeah; for now, as hard, as tough, as unbearable as it may be, I'm just better off (to use a sports analogy) getting off the court & waiting on the sidelines for my sports team's star athlete to make the big move, to pull off the big maneuver, that sets up the opportunity for me to pull off the shot that will clinch the big, game-ending victory for my team, resulting in the pro-Amber side ending up in the winner's circle & ending the careers of Depp, Vasquez, & Azcarate while also convincing the pro-Depp side to never show their faces in public ever again. |
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::::Enjoy eventually coming to terms with the fact that the pro-Depp camp is going to face the same global humiliation that Depp wanted to put Amber through. I'm gone for now, but like karma, I'll be back when you least expect it just in time to see you go away & never return so that people know the truth, not just about Johnny Depp, but also his eventual failure of a defamation lawsuit. [[User:ClarkKentWannabe|ClarkKentWannabe]] ([[User talk:ClarkKentWannabe|talk]]) 07:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I agree with you that Amber Heard should not have lost that trial, and that Depp, his legal team, and his supporters have engaged in dishonest and harmful discourse around it. I wholeheartedly support Amber. But, in the kindest way possible, a Wikipedia talk page is not the place to have those discussions. |
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::::Wikipedia talk pages are not forums to discuss subjects; they're places to exclusively discuss the improvement of an article. |
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::::Just letting you know for the future, and I hope you don't take offense to this because I'm approaching as someone who agrees with you, but not with the forum of discussion. |
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::::I'll also add that I'm not 100% clear about what changes you want to make to the article, but if (and only if) you have any reputable sources for those additions and some clarity re: what you want to change, I'd love to help put them into place. Have a lovely day <3 :) [[User:Afddiary|Afddiary]] ([[User talk:Afddiary|talk]]) 00:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Please take your unsubstantiated opinions and your [[Wikipedia:OR]] and publish them on a blog or twitter or shout them into the ether. Wikipedia has rules for a reason. If you can cite reliable sources (and no Lawyers "admitting" to things they don't really know about don't count) it will be included until then, don't try. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.220.88.83|94.220.88.83]] ([[User talk:94.220.88.83#top|talk]]) </small><!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2024 == |
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:: There's no discussion; globalnews.ca is as reputable a news source as most. Further, that this discussion is mired in discussions of appropriate sources -- when the matter is recorded, and on tape for everyone to hear -- really only betrays the motives of those who want to use this article to disguise the narrative-busting reality that Amber Heard physically abused her spouse. She admits it on tape. That this has been scrubbed from the article reveals a lot about wikipedia's elite editor agenda. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.57.55.50|24.57.55.50]] ([[User talk:24.57.55.50#top|talk]]) </small> |
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::This is more of an issue for [[WP:RSN]], but I have to admit to doubts about using GlobalNews.ca and Medium.com as sources. They are not really blue chip.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 07:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::: Here's a BBC article which quotes the recording: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53472114. No one doubts the veracity or integrity of the recording itself. Why is GlobalNews reporting even a dicussion -- Global is suitable because it's a reputable source (sure, even if not blueChip, NON-blueChips *are* allowed as sources of material which are of *no* debate - no?). This isnt at all about globalnews.ca, that argument is subterfuge to supress the recording of Amber Heard admitting, on recording, that she abused her spouse. No dispute. She admits it on tape. But in the article here, the weasel-word "alleged" ("Depp also alleged that Heard had been the abuser"). Amber Heard admits it -- in a recording -- that she is an abuser. A transcript of the recording, and citations to BBC and globalnews.ca should be made here. The fact that she is an domestic abuser is _the_ most notable thing about this person. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.57.55.50|24.57.55.50]] ([[User talk:24.57.55.50#top|talk]]) 13:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::: EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?target=http%3A%2F%2F*.globalnews.ca&title=Special%3ALinkSearch |
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::: EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?target=https%3A%2F%2F*.globalnews.ca&title=Special%3ALinkSearch |
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::: Wikipedia uses globalnews.ca in thousands and thousands of citations. The "globalnews.ca" isnt sufficiently reputable is a complete distraction. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.57.55.50|24.57.55.50]] ([[User talk:24.57.55.50#top|talk]]) 14:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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[[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]], I've seen you for several times that you're saying here that Heard has not denied that she was violent against Depp in self-defense. Can you source this? Because I do not know anything about this. This is not mentioned in the article and that's why it's important to mention those tapes. Surely you remember that we have already talked about it, you wanted to wait for Heard's response or from her team, but still nothing had changed, their truthfulness has not been questioned. It was also not announced only in tabloids, but even on for example [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/02/02/johnny-depp-amber-heard-perpetrated-serial-violence-lawyer-says/4639763002/ USA Today]. Therefore I demand the return of their mention to the article. And the last thing, I agree with what he wrote about OJ Simpson murder case, it also goes in depth listing the various evidence, removing them is against NPOV. [[User:Jirka.h23|Jirka.h23]] ([[User talk:Jirka.h23|talk]]) 12:46, 23 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:For starters, please see [https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/depp-v-news-group-newspapers-ltd/ the High Court judgment], and [https://www.nickwallis.com/depp-trial court docs and transcripts] on Nick Wallis' website. The incident that the tapes discuss is the so-called 'stairs incident'. Since our discussion, Depp was found to have been the abusive party due to overwhelming evidence against him (which includes really serious violence such as hitting, kicking and choking Heard on at least 12 occasions), and the tapes were found not to be evidence of abuse towards Depp, please see the above links. This does not speak ''for'' including a mention of the tapes. What's more, in the case of a BLP and such a controversial case and heavy accusations, this would have to have been reported widely in top RS media for inclusion to be even considered. Furthermore, I would strongly encourage you to study source criticism, media literacy and [[WP:BLP]] guidelines. You've yourself stated above that you do not have a strong grasp on source reliability, and to put it bluntly, you are therefore perhaps not best suited to make decisions on what should go to such a controversial article on this stage. Now, let's both focus on something else for a change as we are going in circles. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 12:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 |
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::And now will you finally answer me? (self-defense, USA Today). Since you didn't answer, you may be deliberately lying here and your views here should not be taken seriously. Or are you just unknowingly mistaken? You can tell us, just don't lie here anymore. IMO, Depp was not the abusive party, it's all based on the construct that Heard is telling the truth and Depp is not. But as Depp then said, he WILL KEEP FIGHT FOR THE TRUTH! Depp never admitted this, on the contrary, she admitted it in the recordings, so it is important to mention them here. [[User:Jirka.h23|Jirka.h23]] ([[User talk:Jirka.h23|talk]]) 12:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::I found something in that document "Approved Judgment". Heard said that she did throw pots and pans at him in self-defence. Did she say something similar about the recordings and with that she doesn't deny to beat him? This should be mentioned in the article as a crucial thing. So if no one objects USA Today, I am in favor of mention of the discussed topic. [[User:Jirka.h23|Jirka.h23]] ([[User talk:Jirka.h23|talk]]) 15:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
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I stumbled on the page, and realized there is no mention of the tapes which was widely circulated on media. Found a DailyMail article as well https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7947733/Amber-Heard-admits-hitting-ex-husband-Johnny-Depp-pelting-pots-pans-tape.html . Are we still debating that we don't have enough cited articles? |
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Is it a fact that the tapes exist or not? [[User:Zengalileo|Zengalileo]] ([[User talk:Zengalileo|talk]]) 02:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC) |
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Yes, the tape exists. [[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] ([[User talk:Aardwolf68|talk]]) 18:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Amber Heard in recording admits to being a physical abuser of Johnny Depp == |
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As someone will surely prevent this information about the recording of Amber Heard admitting to being the aggressor in physical attacks on Depp, here's where apologists can argue to suppress that information. [[User:Zengalileo|Zengalileo]] ([[User talk:Zengalileo|talk]]) 02:27, 24 September 2021 (UTC) |
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: The bad news is that you have it backward, and the [[WP:ONUS|onus]] is on you to build consensus for including the information. The good news is that you already have this section created. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]]) 02:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC) |
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I’m surprised that there hasn’t been more discussion on this. A lot of people don’t seem to fully understand those recordings, so I think it would be a great idea to include them in the article, as long as the information is balanced and fair. We should also move to Mr Depp’s page to gain consensus there to add it. [[User:Ookadookasodacracka|Ookadookasodacracka]] ([[User talk:Ookadookasodacracka|talk]]) 20:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC) |
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After further inspection I can see there has actually been plenty of (intense) discussion of the recordings on the Talk page, as such I don’t want to get involved and am now backing away. Good luck good people. [[User:Ookadookasodacracka|Ookadookasodacracka]] ([[User talk:Ookadookasodacracka|talk]]) 20:58, 10 January 2022 (UTC) |
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== Incomplete information in Infobox needs fixing == |
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The "Partner(s)" item in this article's infobox is fully a decade out of date, although much more recent information is available in the body of the article. It should either be edited to add Elon Musk (2017-2018) and Bianca Butti (2020-present) as noted in the "Personal life" section, or be removed from the infobox altogether. -- [[Special:Contributions/73.113.16.101|73.113.16.101]] ([[User talk:73.113.16.101|talk]]) 04:17, 25 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:I think you're right, and I removed it all together. [[Template:Infobox person]] has some guidance for the partner(s) parameter: include relevant/notable {{tq|" unmarried life partners in a domestic partnership"}}. If any of Heard's relationships meet that standard, as shown by reliable sources, please feel free to restore the infobox parameter. [[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] 07:38, 25 December 2021 (UTC) |
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== The page is biased in favor Heard == |
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There is zero information pertaining to the fact that Amber Heard nearly cut off Depp’s finger, mishandled evidence on purpose to make Depp look like the abuser, defecated on his bed, and the fact that there’s ZERO mention of the tapes of Amber MOCKING Depp of her abusing him is intellectually dishonest at best. Now; tell me why information is being withheld from this page? I’ll wait for a good answer. [[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] ([[User talk:Aardwolf68|talk]]) 18:28, 13 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:The simple answer is that those are Depp’s claims that the English court found not to be supported by evidence ie they were found to be false. Please note that the article also mentions no specifics of the abuse that Depp inflicted on Heard, even though the English court found those allegations to be substantially true. As you probably know, the second trial on the same allegations is currently ongoing in Virginia. Given that WP is not a news media, I suggest we hold our horses when it comes to adding any detail until the jury has reached a verdict. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 07:30, 14 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::And how does that explain the exclusion of the tapes in which Heard mocks her abuse onto Depp? [[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] ([[User talk:Aardwolf68|talk]]) 18:27, 14 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] We only write about things that [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] discuss. We use them to decide if something is important enough to include in an article ([[WP:WEIGHT]]). Even if individual editors thing something is important (e.g., those tapes), we only include it if reliable sources say it's relevant and notable. |
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:::For [[WP:BLP]]s, we have a higher bar for what should be included. Tabloid materials is not allowed. We avoid negative material in general unless those sources (abbreviated RS for reliable sources) say it's an important part of that person's biography. For example, on [[Tucker Carlson]] there is a discussion about whether or not to put the "Russia's favorite TV personality" in the beginning of the article. I and others say it's not important enough to his overall biography to highlight it in the beginning ([[WP:LEAD]]) but that it does belong in the article because it was so widely covered. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 19:38, 14 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::::So we should just exclude evidence because a “reliable source” hasn’t covered it and/or because it’s negative? I’m sorry, but to me, that sounds like a lot of hokey BS to excuse the bias that this page has [[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] ([[User talk:Aardwolf68|talk]]) 20:43, 14 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] There is no "evidence" because we are not investigators, journalists, police, or activists. We are writing an encyclopedia, not collecting "evidence". [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 21:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]], yes. Wikipedia policy is to only include assertions made by reliable sources. [[WP:RS]] is one of the founding principles of WP. We are not allowed to use primary sources (ie. the tape itself) and make our own analysis of it. For bios of living people we need to be even more conservative, this is also a WP policy. As frustrating as it may be. [[User:Ashmoo|Ashmoo]] ([[User talk:Ashmoo|talk]]) 08:40, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::Please don't report her pledging donations that were never made. It smells like bias toward an admitted spouse-beater. [[Special:Contributions/108.28.48.241|108.28.48.241]] ([[User talk:108.28.48.241|talk]]) 18:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::The tapes are definitely relevant information that should be added fast. How about a very noncommital sentence like this: "At the end of 2019, private audio recordings came to light, from which it could be concluded that Johnny Depp was abused by Amber Heard." |
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(Translated from the German Wikipedia Article) |
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To avoid lying by omission while also not jumping to conclusions prematurely. [[User:Tim Hermes|Tim Hermes]] ([[User talk:Tim Hermes|talk]]) 19:59, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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Now, the same tape has been played in court. I’m assuming none of Johnny’s POV will be expressed though? [[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] ([[User talk:Aardwolf68|talk]]) 02:26, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:We cover the basic outline of his allegations, eg: {{tq|In early 2019, Depp sued Heard for defamation over an op-ed she wrote about her experience of being a public victim of domestic violence, which was published by The Washington Post in December 2018. Depp also alleged that Heard had been the abuser, and that her allegations constituted a hoax against him.}} However, we cannot use raw court transcripts as a source for BLP-sensitive implications that a court has previously dismissed; and higher-quality sources are not (at the moment) treating this as something decisive the way some editors feel it is, eg. [https://www.npr.org/2022/04/21/1093974390/johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial][https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/21/arts/johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial.html] Right now, the outcome of the British case means that we have to basically go with their finding that Depp abused Heard and that Heard acted only in self-defense; and we cannot say or imply otherwise in the article text without extremely high-quality [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources directly contradicting that result. If you think the previous court was wrong in how it read the evidence, you can wait until the newer court case ends and hope that it affirms your views, or find other high-quality sources that interpret events and evidence the way you do. But you can't try to argue from the evidence ''yourself''; your personal feelings about what the recording means are [[WP:OR]], and you can't try to insert evidence in the article to lead the reader to an uncited conclusion per [[WP:SYNTH]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 19:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Ambiguity == |
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This sentence is slightly ambiguous: |
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"...Depp in turn alleged in 2018 that Heard had abused him, before unsuccessfully suing the publishers of British tabloid The Sun for English defamation." |
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I assume it is Depp that sued The Sun's publishers, but it is not entirely clear it wasn't Heard who sued. Someone with access to this locked article should clear up the ambiguity. |
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Also, it seems like suing for "English defamation" should just read suing for "defamation." Adding the "English" qualifier makes it awkward and confusing. No one sues for "American defamation" in the US. If "English defamation," is a common term across the pond, then I apologize for the correction. I have just never heard of it and it sounded odd.[[Special:Contributions/66.91.36.8|66.91.36.8]] ([[User talk:66.91.36.8|talk]]) 21:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2022 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Amber Heard|answered=yes}} |
{{edit semi-protected|Amber Heard|answered=yes}} |
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[[User:Eenchantedd|Eenchantedd]] ([[User talk:Eenchantedd|talk]]) 04:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Amber actually entered into a legally binding domestic partnership with Tasya Van Ree in the state of California in March 2008. However, their union was never recognized federally, as the U.S. Supreme Court didn’t make same-sex marriages legal in all 50 states until June 26, 2015. [[Special:Contributions/67.86.187.167|67.86.187.167]] ([[User talk:67.86.187.167|talk]]) 17:09, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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Allegations that Amber Heard abused Elon Musk in their relationship are not mentioned, although they gained widespread media attention when Musk's biography was published. In that biography, several of his family members testified that Heard was abusive to him during their relationship.<ref></ref>https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/12/elon-musk-biography-relationship-amber-heard-brutal-19488551/ |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 17:14, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 04:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== What now? == |
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So is TrueHeartSusie3 gonna be consistent and claim the findings of the new lawsuit will be relevant enough to include or are they just gonna reject it if it doesn't fit the narrative of Heard being utterly innocent? I have to specifically mention this editor because they have practically laid claim to this article and all articles related to the matter. All changes appear to have to go through them. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2a02:a420:25:5693:b0e9:eb17:f5ca:b99f|2a02:a420:25:5693:b0e9:eb17:f5ca:b99f]] ([[User talk:2a02:a420:25:5693:b0e9:eb17:f5ca:b99f#top|talk]]) 04:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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:Are you talking about this? [https://www.npr.org/2022/04/21/1093974390/johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial][https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/21/arts/johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial.html] The lawsuit is still in progress, so there are no "findings" from it yet, just claims by the competing sides. Since Depp's claims were previously dismissed by another court, I think we would have to wait until the trial is over (and only include them if the court supports them) - we can't just include them because Depp has made the same claims again in another venue. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 07:49, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::I said ''will be''. I'm asking in advance if TrueHeartSusie3 (or others) will decide to obstruct inclusion of new findings that accuse Heard of wrongdoing if they are supported by court deicision this time around. The argument has been that they shouldn't be in there because the court dismissed it, so then it would stand to reason that the outcome of this case matters, right? [[Special:Contributions/2A02:A420:25:5693:B0E9:EB17:F5CA:B99F|2A02:A420:25:5693:B0E9:EB17:F5CA:B99F]] ([[User talk:2A02:A420:25:5693:B0E9:EB17:F5CA:B99F|talk]]) 08:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Well, there's no point in discussing that until the case is over, since it will depend on the exact conclusions they reach. But generally speaking I would not expect an American defamation case to succeed where a British one failed, since British laws on defamation are, infamously, far harsher due to the lack of anything akin to US First Amendment protections. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 19:57, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2022 == |
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The the sentence "Following the verdict in the Depp v NGN case, a Change.org petition asking for Heard to be fired from Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom reached over one million supporters." in "Relationship with Jonny Depp" should be changed to something like: |
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After the verdict Warner Bros fired Jonny Depp as Grindelwald in “Fantastic Beasts 3, which led to a Change.org petition asking for Heard to be fired from Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom reaching over one million supporters." |
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Because it more accurately represents the sources cited and doesn't risk any misinterpretation as to why the petition gained traction. |
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Ps: I hope this is the correct form for an edit request. [[User:Tim Hermes|Tim Hermes]] ([[User talk:Tim Hermes|talk]]) 22:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Disputed: The disorders Amber is alleged to have == |
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I agree with TrueHeartSusie3 that it shouldn't be there. At least not without consensus. [[User:Pictureprize|Pictureprize]] ([[User talk:Pictureprize|talk]]) 00:18, 2 May 2022 (UTC) |
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It's controversial and one-sided because that psych was hired by Depp's team. Leave it for the trial article where it can be put in proper context. If it stays here, then also put it in proper context, as Amber's team doesn't agree. [[User:Pictureprize|Pictureprize]] ([[User talk:Pictureprize|talk]]) 00:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:The current version represents an attempt by [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] and myself to address the objections of [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] to [[User:NikonovNikolai|NikonovNikolai]]'s initial addition. Please abide by [[WP:Preserve]] until consensus is reached in the talk page. |
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:The current objections are: (1) psych hired by Depp’s team, (2) none of Heard’s previous psychs agree with the diagnosis, (3) legal team is accusing Dr Curry of bias, (4) the legal team disagrees with the diagnosis. (1) and (3) are relevant objections and are addressed in the current revision. (2) is also relevant IMO and was addressed in my edits but removed by [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]]. (4) does not seem pertinent, since a legal team cannot make this kind of diagnosis. |
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:https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/12/elon-musk-biography-relationship-amber-heard-brutal-19488551/ |
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:As for whether to keep in the first place, the information is pertinent, relevant, sourced correctly, and presented in NPOV manner by listing the objections. I think it is a fair compromise, but I would vote for reinstating the objection (2), which is important for NPOV purposes. [[User:Retxnihps|Retxnihps]] ([[User talk:Retxnihps|talk]]) 10:41, 2 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12509267/Amber-Heard-despised-Elon-Musks-family-drew-Tesla-founder-dark-vortex-book-reveals.html |
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:https://pagesix.com/2023/09/12/elon-musks-brother-grimes-friends-hated-amber-heard-bio/ |
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:https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/elon-musk-amber-heard-friends-dating-reaction-b2409694.html |
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:https://nypost.com/2023/09/12/elon-musks-friends-hated-amber-heard-new-bio/ |
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:https://www.geo.tv/latest/511896-amber-heard-toxic-and-abusive-to-elon-musk-a-nightmare |
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:https://www.skynews.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity-life/elon-musks-friends-and-brother-hated-his-toxic-ex-amber-heard/video/b3bcc06a30e82f4e097506cea11b815f |
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:https://www.eonline.com/news/1385474/elon-musk-reflects-on-brutal-relationship-with-amber-heard-in-new-biography |
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:https://radaronline.com/p/elon-musk-friends-family-hated-ex-amber-heard/ [[User:Eenchantedd|Eenchantedd]] ([[User talk:Eenchantedd|talk]]) 01:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::The vast majority of those are celebrity gossip magazines that frequently report falsehoods and baseless rumors rather than facts. I'm not sure any of those should be used to include the information you want to see added to the article. |
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::I also suggest you read up on Wikipedia's blacklisted and debatable sources; it will help with ensuring you're using reputable and verifiable sources for your information (which I linked as resources below). At least one of those sources (the [[Daily Mail|''Daily Mail'']]) is included in that list. |
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::[[Wikipedia:RSP|'''WP:RSP''']] (especially [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Sources|'''Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Sources''']]) |
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::[[User:Afddiary|Afddiary]] ([[User talk:Afddiary|talk]]) 23:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2024 == |
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:::One of the biggest problems that I have with this edit (or any other related to the trial) is that this is coming from an ongoing trial. I would wait until the trial concludes and there’s a judgment to add anything about it anywhere else but to the trial’s article. Furthermore, the problem is that this is not a diagnosis that the subject of this page has herself declared, and it’s not coming from a neutral source (e.g. court appointed mental evaluation), but was done by request of Depp’s legal team, by a psych they chose. Its purpose is to be useful for their legal arguments, ie to prove that Heard abused Depp and falsely accused him of abuse. Also, I’m not convinced that this is ’pertinent’ etc. and would like to hear why you consider it to be so. Why should this be added, while Depp’s legal team’s other claims and witnesses are not? [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 11:24, 2 May 2022 (UTC) |
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::::I agree that the issue of [[WP:Recentism]] should be taken into account, and if the judgement pronounces on whether Amber Heard has BPD or HPD the information should be updated to reflect it. Re: not declared by Heard, that is not a criterion for inclusion, since Wikipedia articles are not autobiographies and they routinely include information that is not disclosed by the subject. The issue of the neutrality of the source is addressed in the current edit, but it can be improved by re-inserting the remark that Amber Heard's treating therapist did not diagnose her with either Borderline or Histrionic PD, not sure why Firefangledfeathers chose to remove it, if there is no opposition I will re-insert it. As to pertinence, a diagnosis of BPD or HPD is usually included in articles about people, see {{Cl|People_with_borderline_personality_disorder}}. Regarding including other claims and witnesses from the trial, it can be considered on a case-by-case basis, you can either make proposals here or [[Wikipedia:Be_bold|Be Bold]]. [[User:Retxnihps|Retxnihps]] ([[User talk:Retxnihps|talk]]) 12:17, 2 May 2022 (UTC) |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Amber Heard|answered=yes}} |
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::::It’s true that bios do include mental health diagnoses if such info can be found from reliable sources, and that a bio can include info that is not confirmed by the subject. However, I would argue that here the issue is that this is not a neutral diagnosis reached by a treating psychologist or in a court-ordered mental health evaluation. Instead, it’s a very disputed claim made by one party in an ongoing trial as part of their case. This is very different from other BLPs where a personality disorder diagnosis is mentioned. If it must be mentioned, then it definitely should be mentioned in the paras where the trial is discussed, however this again brings us to the question of why this piece of testimony should be included and not others. I think once there is a judgment, we will have a lot more clarity on this and hence I think the wise thing is to remove it for now and return to the discussion once the jury and the judge have reached their verdict in this case. [[User:TrueHeartSusie3|TrueHeartSusie3]] ([[User talk:TrueHeartSusie3|talk]]) 12:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC) |
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It should say that Amber Heard had the money Depp gave to her for 13 months, uncontested. [[User:Jimsty19880|Jimsty19880]] ([[User talk:Jimsty19880|talk]]) 18:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Jamedeus|Jamedeus]] ([[User talk:Jamedeus|talk]]) 18:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Edit Request on 12 December 23
[edit]The penultimate sentence in the second paragraph of section Personal Life reads "... adding that Heard and her 'shared 5 wonderful years together and remain close to this day.'" This is clunky and grammatically improper. I recommend replacing "Heard and her" with "she and Heard". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Appropriately Jaded (talk • contribs) 22:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2023
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The introduction to the bio reads as if this person did not abuse another person. She was found publicly guilty in a government court of law. Please amend the page bio/intro to Red as such. Sincerely, survivors of abuse. 2600:1700:37B2:F500:4494:D685:FCEC:671A (talk) 03:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. also see WP:DUE Cannolis (talk) 03:29, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2023
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Clarifying as 'bad' actress inside of just actress under her listings. 96.45.151.118 (talk) 23:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 01:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Grammar
[edit]Sentence under Personal Life reads: A statement was then issued by Heard's publicist in which van Ree said that Heard had been "wrongfully" accused and that the incident had been "misinterpreted and over-sensationalized", while also recalling "hints of misogynistic attitudes toward us which later appeared to be homophobic when they found out we were domestic partners and not just 'friends'" and adding that Heard and her "shared 5 wonderful years together and remain close to this day."
Suggest that ’Heard and she’ should replace ‘Heard and her’ in last portion of the sentence 98.114.148.47 (talk) 11:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove "The female officer who conducted the arrest—herself a lesbian—subsequently posted on Facebook to say, "I am so not homophobic or misogynistic! The arrest was made because an assault occurred (I witnessed it)."[133]"
This information came from a false Facebook post. It turns out that this female officer was only an airport security officer who arrived much after the arrest. The arrest was made by two male cops who later dropped the false charges.
Here's the actually reference:
https://variety.com/2016/biz/news/amber-heard-domestic-violence-ex-girlfriend-responds-1201791500/ 2600:1702:28D0:2720:CECB:3BB1:30E0:FA95 (talk) 03:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not done The reference isn't very reliable, which I understand because it would be pretty impossible to get any good source for this. The source already here is fairly equal in quality, however; but the date it was pusblished is more recent than the date on the one your provided, so that's what makes it a little better for me. Coulomb1 (talk) 22:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
Concerning a past claim about the settlement between Depp & Heard not invalidating Depp's lawsuit...
[edit]So, according to a posting on an archived page for this talk page, the claim was made that the jury's verdict against Amber Heard, brought on by Johnny Depp's defamation suit, still stands despite the recent settlement between the two; said settlement which states: Amber doesn't have to admit guilt, she's not bound by a gag order/NDA, and that Depp would receive a payment of $1M from Amber's homeowner's insurer, Travelers.
Now, the claim was made that, according to experienced lawyer David Pardue (iplitigate on Twitter/X, David Pardue: Trade Secrets, Business and Employment Litigation Partner at Parker Poe on LinkedIn; partner at multiple law firms over the years), defamation with malice is not covered by insurance, meaning that, for Travelers to make payment of $1M to Depp as agreed by the settlement, Travelers would insist that Depp acknowledge no malice in exchange for the $1M payout. So, that would then mean, if there's no malice, then there's no grounds for Depp's lawsuit. And, no grounds would then imply a nullification/invalidation.
And, in fact, during New York Marine And General's lawsuit against Amber, even they acknowledge that the settlement reached between Depp & Heard resulted in the dismissal of an underlying action (the underlying action being Depp's lawsuit against Heard).
In fact, as pointed out by users on Twitter for a similar legal situation, "A settlement during the appellate process terminates the litigation, just as a pre-trial settlement does. Normally, the case is simply dismissed...".
So, taking all that into consideration, that would then mean the statement by Depp lawyer Camille Vasquez & her law firm, Brown Rudnick, where the claim is made that the jury's verdict still stands, is technically & legally incorrect, as recognized by New York Marine And General.
Oh, and as far as links to two court documents referencing payments of $10.5M & $2M, the individual who posted those apparently isn't aware of the settlement stipulating a $1M payout to Depp from Amber's insurer, Travelers.
And so, for the articles for Amber Heard, Johnny Depp, and Depp's defamation lawsuit against Heard to state otherwise about the verdict & settlement would therefore render those articles currently incorrect/untrue. ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, there are so many Points wrong with this Comment:
- 1. This constitues Wikipedia:OR which you shouldn't do.
- 2. Even though this is a Lawyer he is speculating about what happenedwhich could only be added in the form of:"A legal Expert speculated about..." if it should be added at all because He is a primary Source for his Opinion and also constitutes Wikipedia:OR.
- 3. Appart from Encyclopediac reasons your legal reasoning is also pretty bad:
- a. New York Marine talking about a underlying case in the legal theory of Heards legal team and them naming the underlying case in this legal battle does not mean that they are meaning the same case. They are also talking about the argument in general...
- b. Only a court can change a verdict, that means there would be some kind of legal document (court order) to make it public that the verdict has changed. For a Settlement to vacate a Verdict The parties would have to file a Vacatur
- c. I hate people who only provide misleading Information. I present the full Text of the Hastings Law Journal about Settlement Agreements on page 21 the following line can be found "But sometimes the parties ask the court to do more: to vacate the subordinate court's judgment in the case." The Appeal and the Court case of the lower court are 2 distinct cases and a settlement like written before only stopps the ongoing court case. If you copy arguments from twitter at least check if they are correct...
- Also please if you want to argue about hot topics please stay on twitter or provide Wikipedia:RS that actually express the opinion which you want to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.220.90.128 (talk) 14:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- OK then.
- Will you take the word of Johnny Depp supporter, YouTube law channel operator (a.k.a. LawTuber), & lawyer Nick Rekieta (Rekieta Law on YouTube), who actually came right out and stated the settlement "invalidates the jury verdict, legally speaking.
- He then goes on to state that if in the settlement agreement she never made any admissions or concessions and if there is no gag order (she confirmed these in her IG post), then, legally, "Amber Heard did not defame Johnny Depp."
- And then, further going on to say he rejects the idea that the verdict stands and that the $1 million was for settling only the appeal.
- So, from the looks of it, I don't see how I'm engaging in OR; I'm simply, in a sense, repeating not just what experienced lawyers (who apparently have LOTS of knowledge about law in this situation) are saying about the case, but also what Amber's own insurance company legally declared about what the settlement entails during their (failed) legal action against her. And, to top it off, pointing out how other legal situations are even implying that a post-trial settlement very much has the power to nullify/invalidate a jury's verdict, much like how a pre-trial settlement does the same.
- Or, is it that, even with Depp supporter & LawTuber Rekieta essentially conceding that what Depp's side is saying about the settlement is actually wholly wrong & completely inaccurate, you'll still (apparently falsely) claim the settlement only cover the appeals & the verdict still stands? I don't get how a lawyer isn't considered a reliable source when it come to matters pertaining to the law.
- In fact, did some research through Google, and came upon some very interesting information: Through posttrial actions, trial courts can reduce awards, completely overturn juries' decisions, or grant a new trial. (emphasis placed is my own).
- So, at this point, I suppose you're still sticking to your guns, despite mounting "evidence" (if you will) that the post-trial settlement between Johnny Depp & Amber Heard does indeed invalidate/nullify the jury's verdict against Amber Heard, besides the fact of Depp receiving $1M from Travelers in exchange for his agreement of having to declare Amber did not defame him, thereby completely & legally striking his lawsuit from the legal record books?
- Turns out, seems like I'm not the one putting forth misleading information; plus, I'm not the one ignoring legally-declared law coming from an insurance company. And, I'm not the one putting a blind eye to the fact that the law states a trial court can indeed overturn a jury's verdict based on post trial action, like a settlement between parties involved. ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 14:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- To prove that you are not doing Wikipedia:OR you provide further primary sources... like i said "Only a court can change a verdict" your google research actually supports that but you emphasised the wrong part: Through posttrial actions, trial courts can reduce awards, completely overturn juries' decisions, or grant a new trial...
- Is Nick Rekieta a court and has he put out a court order? No and even if he were he would not be the appropriate one (that would be the Fairfax County Circuit Court or the Virginia Court of Appeals). Is He a Reliable source or publish it in one? No. Please get better Sources. For Example a court document saying whatever you want to include, or a reputable Newspaper reporting on it.
- Your mounting "evidence" is People on the Internet saying things (yes even Lawyers are People and they can be wrong). Someone has to verify that Information and no that can't be you...
- You were the one with the Picture from Twitter showing only a part of an article which showed the opposite when read in full. Also are you a legal expert since you seem to think that your Interpretation of legal writing is worth anything?
- Please read Wikipedia:OR, Wikipedia:RS or Wikipedia:Verifiability — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.220.68.176 (talk)
- So, in other words, it's EXACTLY what I said in the 4th-to-last section of my previous comment. It's sad when there are people not wanting to admit they're wrong even when all the evidence available is calling them a liar.
- Honestly, I remember a friend of mine dealing with someone like you when it came to not just the article for the Star Television Network, but American Broadcasting Companies as well. In both situations, the person like you didn't want to admit they were wrong about the information being presented.
- But, after a long enough time, the person like you realized they weren't at all in the right. By that point, they no longer wanted to show their face for the articles, which allowed my friend to finally put the right information in those articles.
- So far, two lawyers have admitted, based on the terms (Amber doesn't have to admit guilt; she's not bound by gag order/NDA; & Depp gets $1M from Travelers in exchange for admitting malice doesn't exist) of the settlement between Depp & Heard, that the settlement does indeed nullify/invalidate Depp's lawsuit. One of the two insurance companies covering Amber, through paperwork for the failed lawsuit they filed against her, has stated through said paperwork that the settlement essentially dismissed his lawsuit. A statement from a case not related to Depp & Heard, though similar in legal circumstances, has stated that, very much like a pre-trial settlement, a post-trial settlement can also terminate a lawsuit.
- For you saying that lawyers can be wrong, it would very much seem like that's EXACTLY the situation with Depp lawyer Camille Vasquez, the same woman who, during the trial, said that Amber never thought she'd have to face her abuser. In fact, other legal experts have even pointed out that Azcarate has committed judicial malpractice by even allowing the trial to take place in her courtroom, as neither Depp nor Heard have ANY jurisdictional relation to Virginia.
- At this point, maybe I'm just better off following in the footsteps of my friend & waiting for when a reliable news outlet reports on the truth of the details of the settlement. When that happens, & it turns out Vasquez & Brown Rudnick are completely WRONG about what the settlement implies, and when you end up no longer wanting to show your face for this article, it will allow me to be the one to insert the report by that news outlet into the article, thereby showing everyone that Depp indeed willingly dropped his lawsuit in return for that $1M from Travelers, while also proving that Amber did indeed finally win the feud against Depp.
- So yeah; for now, as hard, as tough, as unbearable as it may be, I'm just better off (to use a sports analogy) getting off the court & waiting on the sidelines for my sports team's star athlete to make the big move, to pull off the big maneuver, that sets up the opportunity for me to pull off the shot that will clinch the big, game-ending victory for my team, resulting in the pro-Amber side ending up in the winner's circle & ending the careers of Depp, Vasquez, & Azcarate while also convincing the pro-Depp side to never show their faces in public ever again.
- Enjoy eventually coming to terms with the fact that the pro-Depp camp is going to face the same global humiliation that Depp wanted to put Amber through. I'm gone for now, but like karma, I'll be back when you least expect it just in time to see you go away & never return so that people know the truth, not just about Johnny Depp, but also his eventual failure of a defamation lawsuit. ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 07:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with you that Amber Heard should not have lost that trial, and that Depp, his legal team, and his supporters have engaged in dishonest and harmful discourse around it. I wholeheartedly support Amber. But, in the kindest way possible, a Wikipedia talk page is not the place to have those discussions.
- Wikipedia talk pages are not forums to discuss subjects; they're places to exclusively discuss the improvement of an article.
- Just letting you know for the future, and I hope you don't take offense to this because I'm approaching as someone who agrees with you, but not with the forum of discussion.
- I'll also add that I'm not 100% clear about what changes you want to make to the article, but if (and only if) you have any reputable sources for those additions and some clarity re: what you want to change, I'd love to help put them into place. Have a lovely day <3 :) Afddiary (talk) 00:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Please take your unsubstantiated opinions and your Wikipedia:OR and publish them on a blog or twitter or shout them into the ether. Wikipedia has rules for a reason. If you can cite reliable sources (and no Lawyers "admitting" to things they don't really know about don't count) it will be included until then, don't try. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.220.88.83 (talk)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Eenchantedd (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Allegations that Amber Heard abused Elon Musk in their relationship are not mentioned, although they gained widespread media attention when Musk's biography was published. In that biography, several of his family members testified that Heard was abusive to him during their relationship.Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/12/elon-musk-biography-relationship-amber-heard-brutal-19488551/
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/12/elon-musk-biography-relationship-amber-heard-brutal-19488551/
- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12509267/Amber-Heard-despised-Elon-Musks-family-drew-Tesla-founder-dark-vortex-book-reveals.html
- https://pagesix.com/2023/09/12/elon-musks-brother-grimes-friends-hated-amber-heard-bio/
- https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/elon-musk-amber-heard-friends-dating-reaction-b2409694.html
- https://nypost.com/2023/09/12/elon-musks-friends-hated-amber-heard-new-bio/
- https://www.geo.tv/latest/511896-amber-heard-toxic-and-abusive-to-elon-musk-a-nightmare
- https://www.skynews.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity-life/elon-musks-friends-and-brother-hated-his-toxic-ex-amber-heard/video/b3bcc06a30e82f4e097506cea11b815f
- https://www.eonline.com/news/1385474/elon-musk-reflects-on-brutal-relationship-with-amber-heard-in-new-biography
- https://radaronline.com/p/elon-musk-friends-family-hated-ex-amber-heard/ Eenchantedd (talk) 01:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- The vast majority of those are celebrity gossip magazines that frequently report falsehoods and baseless rumors rather than facts. I'm not sure any of those should be used to include the information you want to see added to the article.
- I also suggest you read up on Wikipedia's blacklisted and debatable sources; it will help with ensuring you're using reputable and verifiable sources for your information (which I linked as resources below). At least one of those sources (the Daily Mail) is included in that list.
- WP:RSP (especially Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Sources)
- Afddiary (talk) 23:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
It should say that Amber Heard had the money Depp gave to her for 13 months, uncontested. Jimsty19880 (talk) 18:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
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