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Frequently asked questions

Concern: The introduction mentions alleged bias or other controversial information.

WP:LEAD - The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies. It is appropriate to overview the controversies and allegations of bias, as these are substantial.

Concern: The introduction mentions allegations of conservative bias but I've seen studies that say Fox News is centrist and/or liberal. Shouldn't these viewpoints be mentioned in the lead as well?

Although there are studies with various viewpoints on Fox, the view that Fox is conservative dominates. For the lead we restrict ourselves to the dominant view, conservative bias, while noting that this viewpoint has dissenters. The lead should only briefly summarize the notable controversies. The notability of this particular controversy is measured by studies, documentaries, films, boycotts from influential persons based on the perception of bias, and numerous pop culture references to the alleged conservative bias. No other viewpoint has gained as much currency, and therefore including them in the lead would violate WP:FRINGE; WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD.

Concern: Does the article take any position regarding the allegations of bias?

Wikipedia takes no position on whether Fox News is biased. The introduction highlights the existence of a notable controversy concerning the perception that the network promotes conservative political positions. Neither the introduction nor the article takes a position on whether such a perception is accurate, we merely reflect the consensus of reliable independent sources.

Previous discussions: See archives 21, 19, 18, 17, 16 (Includes RfC) and 15.

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“Conservative”

I don’t think the fact that Fox News is “conservative” needs to be mentioned in the first sentence of the first paragraph; maybe that should be briefly discussed toward the end of the intro. 76.170.142.83 (talk) 06:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

Hi everyone, I want to replace the sentence 'Fox News has been characterized by many as a propaganda organization' with 'Fox News is a right-wing propaganda organization'^[1] because it's more specific. Let me show my sources of information: ^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]

Volantor (talk) 00:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote the original sentence and I think the new sentence goes too far by definitively stating FNC is a propaganda organization. I think we should go only so far as to say many have concluded it is. soibangla (talk) 00:31, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I simply disagree Volantor (talk) 23:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DUCKTEST Volantor (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck". Volantor (talk) 21:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The duck test does not apply to article content. Of course Fox is a propaganda organization. (My opinions are not that of Wikipedia.) But, it requires massive documentation to state that in WikiVoice, particularly since there exist supporters here. Your proposed change would not be possible at this time. Avoid Sisyphean tasks. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Truth matters Volantor (talk) 19:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's an essay, not a policy. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a statement is not false, it is true. ... not to say “the Earth is found by many to be round” but "the Earth is round". Volantor (talk) 07:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How many references are needed to state that in WikiVoice? Volantor (talk) 07:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Show me a news show that isn't slanted. 2600:1003:B124:396B:384F:7D87:B848:A19D (talk) 19:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So I guess that we can brand CNN and MSNBC as left wing propagandists, you will agree with this? 46.97.168.128 (talk) 14:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CNN and MSNBC did not have to pay $787 million for spreading lies. Which is a small part of the problem. In any case, those are other articles about other organizations. What Fox is does not apply to what CNN and MSNBC do. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Preview of references

^ The Staff (2010-07-29). "Tell the White House Correspondents Association to give Helen Thomas' vacated briefing room seat to NPR, not FOX". Media Matters for America. Retrieved 2024-08-03. Fox News is a right-wing propaganda organization.
^
Multiple sources:
- A.J. Bauer; Anthony Nadle; Jacob L. Nelson (2021). "What is Fox News? Partisan Journalism, Misinformation, and the Problem of Classification". Sage Publishing.
- "The Fox Diet". Oxford University Press. October 2018.
- Yochai Benkler; Robert Far; Hal Roberts (April 21, 2023). "Fox News and the marketing of lies". Financial Times.
- Haag, Mathew (June 7, 2018). "Former Fox News Analyst Calls Network a 'Destructive Propaganda Machine'". The New York Times. Archived from the original on May 14, 2024. Retrieved May 14, 2024.
- Sarah Ferguson; Lauren Day; Laura Gartry (August 22, 2021). "Insiders reveal how Fox News became a propaganda outlet for Donald Trump". ABC News (Australia). Archived from the original on May 21, 2024. Retrieved May 14, 2024.
- Alterman, Eric (March 14, 2019). "Fox News Has Always Been Propaganda". The Nation.
- Axelrod, Tal (March 19, 2019). "CNN's Zucker: Fox News is a 'propaganda outlet'". The Hill.
- Darcy, Oliver (October 19, 2023). "Mitt Romney criticizes Fox News and right-wing media for warping Republican Party". CNN.
- Concha, Joe (October 24, 2016). "Ex-CIA director calls Hannity a 'true propagandist'". The Hill.
- Illing, Sean (March 22, 2019). "How Fox News evolved into a propaganda operation". Vox. Archived from the original on December 10, 2021. Retrieved July 27, 2019.
- Mayer, Jane (March 4, 2019). "The Making of the Fox News White House". The New Yorker. Archived from the original on December 11, 2020. Retrieved March 4, 2019.
- Serwer, Adam (February 19, 2024). "Why Fox News Lied to Its Viewers". The Atlantic.
- Darcy, Oliver (May 30, 2024). "Fox News and right-wing media have already decided the Trump trial verdict". CNN.
^ Benkler, Yochai; Faris, Robert; Roberts, Hal (2018-10-18). Network Propaganda. Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/oso/9780190923624.001.0001. ISBN 0-19-092362-8.
^ Yglesias, Matthew (2018-10-02). "The Case for Fox News Studies". Political Communication. 35 (4): 681–683. doi:10.1080/10584609.2018.1477532. ISSN 1058-4609.
^ Martin, J. (2012). The Fox Effect: How Roger Ailes Turned a Network into a Propaganda Machine. Journalism & Mass Communication Quarterly, 38, 189.

Weasel Words

@Soibangla Your current statement includes Weasel Words. They should be avoided when we can add specificity. There is no problem with the statement other than that it is unnecessarily vague. At the very least, a word like "critics" needs be added. Your edit has removed specificity and added weasel word statements. Amend it when you can, or I can fix it later. Just10A (talk) 17:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

what weasel words? "many?" I would agree if the statement were not supported by an abundance of sources, but it is. by mentioning just a handful of specific sources in the text, your edit suggests "only these guys believe it." I can fix it later if you gain consensus. soibangla (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS states, "Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proved should be clearly attributed."

It additionally states that for an editor to simply view an abundance of sources and convert it to a weasel word violates the Wikipedia:No original research policies. The sources listed are either stating personal belief or using "some say" language. Just10A (talk) 17:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

specifically naming a handful of sources when there exists an abundance of sources is deeply misleading. The sources listed are either stating personal belief or using "some say" language is incorrect and the edit is not OR as it is supported by many reliable sources. I think you and I have said enough on this, what do others think? soibangla (talk) 18:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it is incorrect, please provide it. As of now, the majority of the sources from my cursory glance are either stating the position of a specific writer/paper or are using "some say" language. And even then, they are usually citing who they are referring to after their "some say." Additionally, I already said we don't have to only provide "a handful of sources" we just need to qualify it with something like "critics" or name the sources. That would avoid your weasel words issue.

Again, MOS states that, ""Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proved should be clearly attributed." as opposed to using Weasel Words. I'm afraid that is just policy. Just10A (talk) 18:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Just10A, you recently reverted this edit claiming it was undue and had weasel words. I do not see how it is undue and do not believe it has any weasel words. If you would like to explain your reasoning please do so, as I do not see the concerns you have raised in the well-sourced and cited edits that were made. Pinging @Soibangla due to his prior involvement in this conversation. BootsED (talk) 19:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1.) Reverting at the very least during discussion per WP:NOCON.

2.) The undue and weasel word issues are similar to the ones already brought up (in fact, the new edit made them worse.) As far as undue is concerned, there is not a ton of sources to compare it to, but Fox is not primarily identified as a propaganda org, particularly when compared to other tertiary sources (what wikipedia is). The Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance, makes no mention of it in the entire article, much less the lead [1]. Additionally, as already discussed, the majority of the sources are either reflecting the position of the specific writer or are using "some say"-esque language. That, combined with the fact that it's contentious and that other tertiary sources don't seem to include it, presents a decent UNDUE chance.

3.) The edit clearly includes weasel words per MOS:WEASEL. Weasel words are not entirely banned, but they should be avoided and definitely shouldn't be used for contentious claims. At worst the phrase should just explicitly say "critics", and even then that is still technically a weasel violation.

4.) This wasn't mentioned in the original revert, but, in addition to the above issues, WP:MANDY is an essay, not policy. And it is an essay that in my experience is one of the ones most commonly overruled, so that would be an issue as well.

Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with. Just10A (talk) 01:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All boils down to "I just don't like it" with a touch of passive-aggressive condescension ("Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with") at the end. Zaathras (talk) 04:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if it came across that way, but weasel words and undue policy are not "I just don't like it", and are quite clearly cited. WP:NOCON policy is pretty clear here too. Just10A (talk) 07:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to the propaganda claim, there were several peer-reviewed journal articles that described it as such. Despite this, it was still listed as described as, we did not say in wikivoice that is was a propaganda source. Encyclopedia Britannica was not used in the citation to say that Fox was described as "propaganda". There are 17 other sources that do that for us, including several peer-reviewed journal articles. Some of the sources can probably be removed to prevent over-citing this fact.

In regards to using the word "critics", we can just remove it and say "commentators and researchers" instead.

Yes, Mandy is an essay, however, the fact that numerous sources, including numerous peer-reviewed journal articles have described Fox as biased, it is fair to say that Fox is biased and not require us to have Fox's rebuttal in the lead. BootsED (talk) 01:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just10A, you recently reverted my re-addition of the edit again claiming weasel words. To be clear, I did not re-add my edit per your previous comment that you were reverting while discussion was ongoing. As no further discussion has occurred for over a month, I re-added the content to the page. WP:NOCON does not apply in this instance, as you are the only editor here who has objected to the edit, while myself and two other editors have disagreed. Also, please assume good faith and don't accuse me of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Pinging Zaathras and Soibangla due to their prior involvement in this conversation for awareness. BootsED (talk) 22:49, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Empty section in "International transmission"

I cannot edit the article, so I wanted to mention it here. In "International transmission" the section for Scandinavia appears twice, however, it is empty in the second section. Polskimudkip (talk) 22:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Thanks Just10A (talk) 06:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The Staff (2010-07-29). "Tell the White House Correspondents Association to give Helen Thomas' vacated briefing room seat to NPR, not FOX". Media Matters for America. Retrieved 2024-08-03. Fox News is a right-wing propaganda organization.

[2] Multiple sources:
A.J. Bauer; Anthony Nadle; Jacob L. Nelson (2021). "What is Fox News? Partisan Journalism, Misinformation, and the Problem of Classification". Sage Publishing.

"The Fox Diet". Oxford University Press. October 2018.

Yochai Benkler; Robert Far; Hal Roberts (April 21, 2023). "Fox News and the marketing of lies". Financial Times.

Haag, Mathew (June 7, 2018). "Former Fox News Analyst Calls Network a 'Destructive Propaganda Machine'". The New York Times. Archived from the original on May 14, 2024. Retrieved May 14, 2024.

Sarah Ferguson; Lauren Day; Laura Gartry (August 22, 2021). "Insiders reveal how Fox News became a propaganda outlet for Donald Trump". ABC News (Australia). Archived from the original on May 21, 2024. Retrieved May 14, 2024.

Alterman, Eric (March 14, 2019). "Fox News Has Always Been Propaganda". The Nation.

Axelrod, Tal (March 19, 2019). "CNN's Zucker: Fox News is a 'propaganda outlet'". The Hill.

Darcy, Oliver (October 19, 2023). "Mitt Romney criticizes Fox News and right-wing media for warping Republican Party". CNN.

Concha, Joe (October 24, 2016). "Ex-CIA director calls Hannity a 'true propagandist'". The Hill.

Illing, Sean (March 22, 2019). "How Fox News evolved into a propaganda operation". Vox. Archived from the original on December 10, 2021. Retrieved July 27, 2019.

Mayer, Jane (March 4, 2019). "The Making of the Fox News White House". The New Yorker. Archived from the original on December 11, 2020. Retrieved March 4, 2019.

Serwer, Adam (February 19, 2024). "Why Fox News Lied to Its Viewers". The Atlantic.

Darcy, Oliver (May 30, 2024). "Fox News and right-wing media have already decided the Trump trial verdict". CNN.

[3] A.J. Bauer; Anthony Nadle; Jacob L. Nelson (2021). "What is Fox News? Partisan Journalism, Misinformation, and the Problem of Classification". Sage Publishing.

[4] "The Fox Diet". Oxford University Press. October 2018.

[5] Yochai Benkler; Robert Far; Hal Roberts (April 21, 2023). "Fox News and the marketing of lies". Financial Times.

[6] Haag, Mathew (June 7, 2018). "Former Fox News Analyst Calls Network a 'Destructive Propaganda Machine'". The New York Times. Archived from the original on May 14, 2024. Retrieved May 14, 2024.

[7] Sarah Ferguson; Lauren Day; Laura Gartry (August 22, 2021). "Insiders reveal how Fox News became a propaganda outlet for Donald Trump". ABC News (Australia). Archived from the original on May 21, 2024. Retrieved May 14, 2024.

[8] Alterman, Eric (March 14, 2019). "Fox News Has Always Been Propaganda". The Nation.

[9] Axelrod, Tal (March 19, 2019). "CNN's Zucker: Fox News is a 'propaganda outlet'". The Hill.

[10] Darcy, Oliver (October 19, 2023). "Mitt Romney criticizes Fox News and right-wing media for warping Republican Party". CNN.

[11] Concha, Joe (October 24, 2016). "Ex-CIA director calls Hannity a 'true propagandist'". The Hill.

[12] Illing, Sean (March 22, 2019). "How Fox News evolved into a propaganda operation". Vox. Archived from the original on December 10, 2021. Retrieved July 27, 2019.

[13] Mayer, Jane (March 4, 2019). "The Making of the Fox News White House". The New Yorker. Archived from the original on December 11, 2020. Retrieved March 4, 2019.

[14] Serwer, Adam (February 19, 2024). "Why Fox News Lied to Its Viewers". The Atlantic.

[15] Darcy, Oliver (May 30, 2024). "Fox News and right-wing media have already decided the Trump trial verdict". CNN.

[3] Benkler, Yochai; Faris, Robert; Roberts, Hal (2018-10-18). Network Propaganda. Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/oso/9780190923624.001.0001. ISBN 0-19-092362-8.

[4] Yglesias, Matthew (2018-10-02). "The Case for Fox News Studies". Political Communication. 35 (4): 681–683. doi:10.1080/10584609.2018.1477532. ISSN 1058-4609.

[5] Martin, J. (2012). The Fox Effect: How Roger Ailes Turned a Network into a Propaganda Machine. Journalism & Mass Communication Quarterly, 38, 189.

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[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

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+== “Conservative” ==
-== Discussion to deprecate Fox News. See RS/N ==
+I don’t think the fact that Fox News is “conservative” needs to be mentioned in the first sentence of the first paragraph; maybe that should be briefly discussed toward the end of the intro. [[Special:Contributions/76.170.142.83|76.170.142.83]] ([[User talk:76.170.142.83|talk]]) 06:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
-'''See: [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Fox News Knew It Was A Lie: Fox News Purposely Pushed Deception On 2020 Voting]]''' -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 04:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
+== Hi ==
-== Sources for Dominion vs Fox News scandal ==
+Hi everyone, I want to replace the sentence 'Fox News has been characterized by many as a propaganda organization' with 'Fox News is a right-wing propaganda organization'<ref>{{Cite web |last=The Staff |first= |date=2010-07-29 |title=Tell the White House Correspondents Association to give Helen Thomas' vacated briefing room seat to NPR, not FOX |url=https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/petition-tell-white-house-correspondents-association-give-helen-thomas-vacated-briefing |access-date=2024-08-03 |website= |publisher=[[Media Matters for America]] |language=en |quote=Fox News is a right-wing propaganda organization.}}</ref> because it's more specific. Let me show my sources of information: <ref>Multiple sources:
-This template will take you to the maintained and updated list.
+* {{cite news |author1=A.J. Bauer |author2=Anthony Nadle |author3=Jacob L. Nelson |date=2021 |title=What is Fox News? Partisan Journalism, Misinformation, and the Problem of Classification |url=https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/19312431211060426 |publisher=[[Sage Publishing]]}}
-{{User:Valjean/Sources for Dominion vs Fox News scandal}}
+* {{cite news |date=October 2018 |title=The Fox Diet |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/26406/chapter/194771847 |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]]}}
+* {{cite news |author1=Yochai Benkler |author2=Robert Far |author3=Hal Roberts |date=April 21, 2023 |title=Fox News and the marketing of lies |url=https://www.ft.com/content/78826749-892b-42b6-9053-ef613016ae93 |work=Financial Times}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Haag |first1=Mathew |date=June 7, 2018 |title=Former Fox News Analyst Calls Network a ‘Destructive Propaganda Machine’ |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/07/business/media/ralph-peters-fox-cnn.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240514074131/https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/07/business/media/ralph-peters-fox-cnn.html |archive-date=May 14, 2024 |access-date=May 14, 2024 |work=The New York Times}}
+* {{cite news |author1=Sarah Ferguson |author2=Lauren Day |author3=Laura Gartry |date=August 22, 2021 |title=Insiders reveal how Fox News became a propaganda outlet for Donald Trump |url=https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/fox-news-trump-four-corners-investigation-gretchen-carlson/100387632 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240521082150/https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/fox-news-trump-four-corners-investigation-gretchen-carlson/100387632 |archive-date=May 21, 2024 |access-date=May 14, 2024 |publisher=[[ABC News (Australia)]]}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Alterman |first1=Eric |date=March 14, 2019 |title=Fox News Has Always Been Propaganda |url=https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/fox-news-propaganda-eric-alterman/ |work=The Nation}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Axelrod |first1=Tal |date=March 19, 2019 |title=CNN’s Zucker: Fox News is a ‘propaganda outlet’ |url=https://thehill.com/homenews/media/433359-cnns-zucker-fox-news-is-a-propaganda-outlet |work=The Hill}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Darcy |first1=Oliver |date=October 19, 2023 |title=Mitt Romney criticizes Fox News and right-wing media for warping Republican Party |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/19/media/mitt-romney-right-wing-media-republican-party-reliable-sources/index.html |publisher=CNN}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Concha |first1=Joe |date=October 24, 2016 |title=Ex-CIA director calls Hannity a ‘true propagandist’ |url=https://thehill.com/media/302546-ex-cia-director-calls-hannity-a-true-propagandist/ |work=The Hill}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Illing |first1=Sean |date=March 22, 2019 |title=How Fox News evolved into a propaganda operation |url=https://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-news-trump-propaganda-tom-rosenstiel |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210155704/https://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-news-trump-propaganda-tom-rosenstiel |archive-date=December 10, 2021 |access-date=July 27, 2019 |work=[[Vox (website)|Vox]]}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Mayer |first1=Jane |date=March 4, 2019 |title=The Making of the Fox News White House |url=https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/11/the-making-of-the-fox-news-white-house |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201211045411/https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/11/the-making-of-the-fox-news-white-house |archive-date=December 11, 2020 |access-date=March 4, 2019 |work=The New Yorker}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Serwer |first1=Adam |date=February 19, 2024 |title=Why Fox News Lied to Its Viewers |url=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-trump/673132/ |work=The Atlantic}}
+* {{cite news |last1=Darcy |first1=Oliver |date=May 30, 2024 |title=Fox News and right-wing media have already decided the Trump trial verdict |url=https://edition.cnn.com/business/media/fox-news-right-wing-media-trump-trial-verdict/index.html |publisher=CNN}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last=Benkler |first=Yochai |url=https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780190923624.001.0001 |title=Network Propaganda |last2=Faris |first2=Robert |last3=Roberts |first3=Hal |date=2018-10-18 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=0-19-092362-8 |language=en |doi=10.1093/oso/9780190923624.001.0001}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Yglesias |first=Matthew |date=2018-10-02 |title=The Case for Fox News Studies |url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10584609.2018.1477532 |journal=Political Communication |language=en |volume=35 |issue=4 |pages=681–683 |doi=10.1080/10584609.2018.1477532 |issn=1058-4609}}</ref><ref>Martin, J. (2012). The Fox Effect: How Roger Ailes Turned a Network into a Propaganda Machine. ''Journalism & Mass Communication Quarterly'', 38, 189.</ref>
+[[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 00:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
-:''Excellent'' work.  I hope to see these references utilized in the article immediately—Fox News has proven itself duplicit, and this time they can't deny it.
-:Moderators should probably be prepared to lock down this page.  I'm sure some of the Fox News fans will be doing their best to undo legitimate edits referring to this scandal.  [[Special:Contributions/98.251.192.45|98.251.192.45]] ([[User talk:98.251.192.45|talk]]) 10:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
+:I wrote the original sentence and I think the new sentence goes too far by definitively stating FNC '''is''' a propaganda organization. I think we should go only so far as to say many have concluded it is. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 00:31, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
-Up to 83 sources now. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 19:04, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
+::I simply disagree [[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 23:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::[[WP:DUCKTEST]] [[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 21:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
+::::"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then [[Operational definition|it probably is a duck]]". [[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 21:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::::The duck test does not apply to article content. Of course Fox is a propaganda organization. (My opinions are not that of Wikipedia.) But, it requires massive documentation to state that in WikiVoice, particularly since there exist supporters here. Your proposed change would not be possible at this time. Avoid [[Sisyphus|Sisyphean tasks]]. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 23:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
+::::::[[Wikipedia:Truth matters|Truth matters]] [[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 19:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::::::That's an essay, not a policy. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 21:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
+::::::::If a statement is not false, it is true. ... not to say “the Earth is found by many to be round” but "the Earth is round". [[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 07:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::::::::How many references are needed to state that in WikiVoice? [[User:Volantor|Volantor]] ([[User talk:Volantor|talk]]) 07:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
+:Show me a news show that isn't slanted. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1003:B124:396B:384F:7D87:B848:A19D|2600:1003:B124:396B:384F:7D87:B848:A19D]] ([[User talk:2600:1003:B124:396B:384F:7D87:B848:A19D|talk]]) 19:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
+:So I guess that we can brand CNN and MSNBC as left wing propagandists, you will agree with this? [[Special:Contributions/46.97.168.128|46.97.168.128]] ([[User talk:46.97.168.128|talk]]) 14:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
+::CNN and MSNBC did not have to pay $787 million for spreading lies. Which is a small part of the problem. In any case, those are other articles about other organizations. What Fox is does not apply to what CNN and MSNBC do. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 15:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
-== Fox as entertainment ==
+=== Preview of references ===
+{{References list}}
+== Weasel Words ==
-Fox News is listed by the TV Guide - a property, coincidentally, owned by Rupert Murdoch - as an “entertainment” channel. In 2007, Roger Ailes said that Fox News’ direct competitors were entertainment channels, citing TBS and USA as examples. In Canada, Fox must label its broadcast “for entertainment purposes”. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sgardn14|Sgardn14]] ([[User talk:Sgardn14#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sgardn14|contribs]]) </small>
+@[[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] Your current statement includes [[Weasel Words]]. They should be avoided when we can add specificity. There is no problem with the statement other than that it is unnecessarily vague. At the very least, a word like "critics" needs be added. Your edit has removed specificity and added weasel word statements. Amend it when you can, or I can fix it later. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 17:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
-:What change are you proposing to the article. [[User:ValarianB|ValarianB]] ([[User talk:ValarianB|talk]]) 16:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
+:what weasel words? "many?" I would agree if the statement were not supported by an abundance of sources, but it is. by mentioning just a handful of specific sources in the text, your edit suggests "only these guys believe it." {{tq|I can fix it later}} if you gain consensus. [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 17:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
-:The only source I've seen is [https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/fox-news-to-add-for-entertainment-purposes-only-disclaimer_n_15727044 Huffpost Canada 1 April 2017]. [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 14:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+::MOS states, "Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proved '''should be clearly attributed'''."
+::It additionally states that for an editor to simply view an abundance of sources and convert it to a weasel word violates the [[Wikipedia:No original research]] policies.  The sources listed are either stating personal belief or using "some say" language. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 17:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
+:::specifically naming a handful of sources when there exists an abundance of sources is deeply misleading. {{tq|The sources listed are either stating personal belief or using "some say" language}} is incorrect and the edit is not OR as it is supported by many reliable sources. I think you and I have said enough on this, what do others think? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 18:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
+::::If it is incorrect, please provide it. As of now, the majority of the sources from my cursory glance are either stating the position of a specific writer/paper '''or''' are using "some say" language. And even then, they are usually citing who they are referring to after their "some say." Additionally, I already said we don't have to only provide "a handful of sources" we just need to qualify it with something like "critics" or name the sources. That would avoid your weasel words issue.
+::::Again, '''MOS''' states that, ""Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proved should be clearly attributed." as opposed to using [[Weasel Words]]. I'm afraid that is just policy. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 18:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
-== Fox news should not be described as a news channel ==
+Hi @[[User:Just10A|Just10A]], you recently [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fox_News&diff=prev&oldid=1258635698 reverted] this edit claiming it was undue and had weasel words. I do not see how it is undue and do not believe it has any weasel words. If you would like to explain your reasoning please do so, as I do not see the concerns you have raised in the well-sourced and cited edits that were made. Pinging @[[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] due to his prior involvement in this conversation. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 19:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
-As the Dominion Voting System's defamation suit against Fox has laid bare Fox doesn't report the news in good faith. It disseminates right wing propaganda, conspiracy theories, and lies.  They should not be classified as a news organization  [[Special:Contributions/24.187.50.239|24.187.50.239]] ([[User talk:24.187.50.239|talk]]) 00:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
-: I agree. Above you will see a collapse list of sources. Many of them make your point. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 04:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
-:Agreed. At best, Fox News being a news channel is highly controversial and disputed '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 04:47, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
-:What do you mean by classified as a news organization? Like how it says {{tq|The Fox News Channel...is an American multinational conservative '''news''' and political commentary television channel and website...}}; you want ''news'' to be removed? [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #E2062C ;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #000000;"> talk</b>]]</sup> 05:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
-::Yes. It should be described as Political commentary, entertainment, opinion, or some other descriptor that is not news  [[Special:Contributions/24.187.50.239|24.187.50.239]] ([[User talk:24.187.50.239|talk]]) 13:49, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+:1.) Reverting at the very least during discussion per [[WP:NOCON]].
-:We're not going to "de-news" the opening sentence of the article of, um, Fox ''News''. Their journalistic integrity is certainly in tatters as the Dominion lawsuit exposes a lot of nefarious, partisan activities behind the curtain. All of that can and should go into the article, but let's stay grounded in reality in how the lede describes the subject. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 13:25, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
+:2.) The undue and weasel word issues are similar to the ones already brought up (in fact, the new edit made them worse.)  As far as undue is concerned, there is not a ton of sources to compare it to, but Fox is not '''primarily''' identified as a propaganda org, particularly when compared to other tertiary sources (what wikipedia is). The Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance, makes no mention of it in the ''entire article'', much less the lead [https://www.britannica.com/money/Fox-News-Channel]. Additionally, as already discussed, the majority of the sources are either reflecting the position of the specific writer or are using "some say"-esque language. That, combined with the fact that it's contentious and that other tertiary sources don't seem to include it, presents a decent UNDUE chance.
-::Oh fine Zaathras, be the voice of reason and moderation, ''just like Fox'' '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 23:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
+:3.) The edit clearly includes weasel words per [[MOS:WEASEL]]. Weasel words are not entirely banned, but they should be avoided and '''definitely''' shouldn't be used for contentious claims. At ''worst'' the phrase should just explicitly say "critics", and even then that is still technically a weasel violation.
-:::It's a gift. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 01:03, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
+:4.) This wasn't mentioned in the original revert, but, in addition to the above issues, [[WP:MANDY]] is an ''essay'', not ''policy''. And it is an essay that in my experience is one of the ones most commonly overruled, so that would be an issue as well.
-::This is so clearly the reasonable approach, yet such glaring bias motivates people to suggest that we actually don't call it by it's name. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 00:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
-:::[[WP:AGF]]. And, no one said we don't call it by its name. You can name yourself whatever you wish. The suggestion was just that we don't call it news. We also don't call ''Onion News Network'' a news network. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 21:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
+:Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 01:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
-::::If the IP user starting the conversation comes back and clarifies otherwise, I'll concede, but it very clearly reads to me an upset that the lede calls it "news" in the opening sentence. Never mind that the lede dedicates nearly half of its bulk to summarizing [[Fox News controversies]]. And actually, Onion ''is'' called news in the lede: "Onion News Network is a parody television news show". [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 22:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
+::All boils down to "I just don't like it" with a touch of passive-aggressive condescension ({{tq|"Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with"}}) at the end. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 04:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
-:::::No, it's called a parody of a news show. Again, we will always call anything by its chosen name. That does not mean that we will say in following text that the name is accurate. And, I don't think we will get consensus to call Fox a parody television news show -- yet. We have an article on the rap star [[Charlamagne tha God]]. We call him that name in the article. We do not refer to him as a god in Wikivoice. [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 01:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
-:::Im not suggesting it shouldn't be called Fox News. That is its name, but it shouldn't be described as a news channel.  [[Special:Contributions/24.187.50.239|24.187.50.239]] ([[User talk:24.187.50.239|talk]]) 13:51, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+:::Sorry if it came across that way, but weasel words and undue policy are not "I just don't like it", and are quite clearly cited. [[WP:NOCON]] policy is pretty clear here too. [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 07:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
+::In regards to the propaganda claim, there were several peer-reviewed journal articles that described it as such. Despite this, it was still listed as ''described as'', we did not say in wikivoice that is was a propaganda source. Encyclopedia Britannica was not used in the citation to say that Fox was described as "propaganda". There are 17 other sources that do that for us, including several peer-reviewed journal articles. Some of the sources can probably be removed to prevent over-citing this fact.
-*We might consider "news and entertainment" rather than "news and political commentary", since AFAIK Fox itself has described its commentary side as entertainment. A quick search suggests that there's many academic sources talking about how Fox blurs the lines between news and entertainment, too. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 22:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
+::In regards to using the word "critics", we can just remove it and say "commentators and researchers" instead.
-*:I think that would be less accurate. What they talk about on Fox News is undoubtedly "political commentary". That they escaped some legal trouble some years ago with a technicality involving "entertainment" is an interesting story, but doesn't help explain what Fox News is. This also only applies to the TV channel, not the website.
-*:I'd be worried about [[wp:synth]], wrt sources that show Fox "blurs the line between news and entertainment". At least, on lede text, I would be. We should try to write ledes that can explain quickly what it is to someone who's been living under a rock. If we told this hypothetical ignoramus that Fox News is entertainment, I don't think he'd agree with that after taking a look. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 22:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
+::Yes, Mandy is an essay, however, the fact that numerous sources, including numerous peer-reviewed journal articles have described Fox as biased, it is fair to say that Fox is biased and not require us to have Fox's rebuttal in the lead. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 01:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
+:[[User:Just10A|Just10A]], you recently [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Fox_News&diff=prev&oldid=1264928112 reverted] my re-addition of the edit again claiming weasel words. To be clear, I did not re-add my edit per your previous comment that you were reverting while discussion was ongoing. As no further discussion has occurred for over a month, I re-added the content to the page. [[WP:NOCON]] does not apply in this instance, as you are the only editor here who has objected to the edit, while myself and two other editors have disagreed. Also, please [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and don't accuse me of [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]]. Pinging [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] and [[User:Soibangla|Soibangla]] due to their prior involvement in this conversation for awareness. [[User:BootsED|BootsED]] ([[User talk:BootsED|talk]]) 22:49, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
-*I'm sure I'll be reverted but I upgraded the lead to say "news entertainment and political commentary." I'd consider an improvement but I'm sure others may differ. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 01:18, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
-*:I'd call that [[weasel]] words. Fox media does report regular news often. I'd revert, but I'm on mobile right now. I will later if someone else doesn't. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 01:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+== Empty section in "International transmission" ==
-*::That is not what [[WP:WEASEL]] are. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:Andrevan|🚐]]</span> 01:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
-*::I have asked several times when is the "real" news on and can't remember getting an answer. If you look at the viewership, it would appear that a very small part of what is viewed as a function of hours * ratings is not hosted by those that the owner has stated under oath lie. It's difficult to argue with "news entertainment and political commentary". Actually, that may be overly polite (weaslly if you prefer). [[User:Objective3000|O3000, Ret.]] ([[User talk:Objective3000|talk]]) 01:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
-*:::On the website is most of it. [[User:Heavy Chaos|HC]] ([[User talk:Heavy Chaos|talk]]) 15:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+I cannot edit the article, so I wanted to mention it here. In "International transmission" the section for Scandinavia appears twice, however, it is empty in the second section. [[User:Polskimudkip|Polskimudkip]] ([[User talk:Polskimudkip|talk]]) 22:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
-Why not just replace {{blue|multinational conservative news entertainment and political commentary}} with {{blue|cable}}. Then the description can be in the following sentence with a little breathing room to state it properly without a big run-on sentence. The second sentence can explain that its news is not all fit to print.[[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 14:52, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
+:Fixed. Thanks [[User:Just10A|Just10A]] ([[User talk:Just10A|talk]]) 06:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)