Jump to content

Talk:Columbia-class submarine: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Cewbot (talk | contribs)
Bots
7,155,700 edits
m Maintain {{WPBS}}: 2 WikiProject templates. Remove 5 deprecated parameters: B1, B2, B3, B4, B5.
 
(3 intermediate revisions by 3 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{talk header}}
{{talk header}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|
{{WPMILHIST|class=start|B1=y|B2=n|B3=n|B4=y|B5=y|US=yes|Maritime=yes}}
{{WPSHIPS|class=start|B1=y|B2=n|B3=n|B4=y|B5=y}}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=start|B1=y|B2=n|B3=n|B4=y|B5=y|US=yes|Maritime=yes}}
{{WikiProject Ships}}

}}
{{old move|date=13 July 2022|destination=District of Columbia-class submarine|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1098458204#Requested move 13 July 2022}}
{{old move|date=13 July 2022|destination=District of Columbia-class submarine|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1098458204#Requested move 13 July 2022}}

== Conventional Trident ==
Does anyone know if there has been any furthering of the [[Trident_(missile)#Conventional_Trident| Conventional Trident]] in general, but more specifically any consequences, permutations, versions, etc. for the Columbia/Ohio Replacement? </br>
[[User:LP-mn|LP-mn]] ([[User talk:LP-mn|talk]]) 06:26, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

== We can now go ahead with the move to [[Columbia-class submarine]] ==
Well, it was actually more than the "few days" I said in the previous move discussion, but with this reliably sourced announcement https://news.usni.org/2016/12/13/secnav-mabus-to-officially-designate-first-orp-boat-uss-district-of-columbia-ssbn-826 I think we can safely go ahead with the move. Mabus will OFFICIALLY name the new class tomorrow. I will post the necessary tag at the target. [[User:Safiel|Safiel]] ([[User talk:Safiel|talk]]) 00:56, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
*CSD G6 move tag placed at the target and I have updated the article accordingly. [[User:Safiel|Safiel]] ([[User talk:Safiel|talk]]) 01:04, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
*Hull number of the USS ''Columbia'' will be SSBN-826. [[User:Safiel|Safiel]] ([[User talk:Safiel|talk]]) 01:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

:Done. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 01:30, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

== O'Rourke, Ronald. "Navy Ohio Replacement (SSBN[X]) Ballistic Missile Submarine Program: Background and Issues for Congress" R41129.pdf ==

This pdf has 4 different [[Columbia-class_submarine#References|Reference]] entries, seemingly to the same work? [[User:DramaticExit|DramaticExit]] ([[User talk:DramaticExit|talk]]) 22:59, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

== Boat vs Ship ==
The Columbia-class is referred to as both 'boat' and 'ship' in the article at several points. I appreciate that 'boat' is the colloquial term that people use for submarines, but, in the case of new shipbuilding, I feel like 'ship' would be more appropriate in a phrase like "A total of 12 boats are planned, with construction of the first boat planned to begin in 2021."

I made appropriate changes, replacing 'boat' with 'ship' or 'submarine' as felt appropriate, and the one phrase "boats 2 through 12" were changed to "hulls 2 through 12" since I find that that is a more common way to refer to ship classes by hull number. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:IRSpeshul|IRSpeshul]] ([[User talk:IRSpeshul#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/IRSpeshul|contribs]]) 03:27, 18 February 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{Reply to|IRSpeshul}} Have to disagree with you here, and I wouldn't be surprised if other regular contributors to naval-related articles do as well. First, you should've proposed your changes ''before'' you made them. Second, and more importantly, it is an accepted standard here that submarines are referred to as boats, in keeping with, and in respect of, established naval traditions. All (should be all) submarine articles use "boat" in place of ship. In instances where both submarines and surface ships are being referred to, the words "vessel" or "hull" are used. There are times when subs are included in the generic use of the word "ship", such as "List of US Navy ships". With that said, I have gone through the page and removed most of the instances where "ship" was used, and replaced them with "submarine", "boat" or "vessel", or just removed "ship" where it wasn't needed. Should you, or anyone, have an issue with this, I would encourage you to discuss the issue ''before'' making any further changes, either here on this talk page, or at the [[WP:WikiProject Ships]] talk page. - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">''[[User: Thewolfchild|<sup>the</sup>'''<big><em style="font-family:Matisse itc;color:red">WOLF</em></big>'''<small>child</small>]]''</span> 18:27, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
::Boat certainly is the proper name for all submarines in the USN. To that end, wouldn't all members of the class be called boats such that the title for the table of class members would be "Boats in Class," not "Ships in Class" as this article currently uses. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:801:380:63E0:0:0:0:5F0A|2601:801:380:63E0:0:0:0:5F0A]] ([[User talk:2601:801:380:63E0:0:0:0:5F0A#top|talk]]) 19:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::The U.S. Navy calls submarines "ships", from OPNAV<ref>{{Cite web |title=Attack Submarines - SSN |url=https://www.navy.mil/Resources/Fact-Files/Display-FactFiles/article/2169558/attack-submarines-ssn/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.navy.mil%2FResources%2FFact-Files%2FDisplay-FactFiles%2FArticle%2F2169558%2Fattack-submarines-ssn%2F |access-date=2022-12-05 |website=www.navy.mil |language=en-US}}</ref>, to Submarine Forces Pacific<ref>{{Cite web |title=The Submariner {{!}} Commander, Submarine Force, U.S. Pacific Fleet |url=https://www.csp.navy.mil/About-SUBPAC/The-Submariner/ |access-date=2022-12-05 |website=www.csp.navy.mil}}</ref>, to Naval Sea Systems and Commander, Submarine Forces<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://www.navy.mil/DesktopModules/ArticleCS/Print.aspx?PortalId=1&ModuleId=523&Article=3052900 |access-date=2022-12-05 |title=Keel Laying Ceremony Held for First Columbia-Class Ballistic Missile Submarine|website=www.navy.mil}}</ref>, to the Naval Vessel Register<ref>{{Cite web |title=Naval Vessel Register |url=https://www.nvr.navy.mil/SHIPS.html |website=Naval Vessel Register}}</ref>. Do these organizations, and the sub community in general, sometimes or even often call subs "boats"? Sure. (Do aviators call their aircraft carriers "boats"? Yes, whenever a surface-warfare officer is within earshot.) But no one in the Navy bothers to insist on "boats" when, say, discussing the overall fleet: it's "Battle Force Ships", not "Battle Force Ships and Boats". I'm not particularly expecting to change anyone's mind here, much less Wikipedia style, but using "boats" to mean "submarines"—like referring to vessels as "she"—ought to be regarded as unencyclopedic jargon.[[User:PRRfan|PRRfan]] ([[User talk:PRRfan|talk]]) 04:20, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
::::Meh, well... agree to disagree. - [[User talk:Thewolfchild|<span style="color:black">w<span style="color: red;">o</span>lf</span>]] 04:52, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
{{Reftalk}}

== Previous turbo-electric subs ==
From this article:

'''Later on, two nuclear-powered submarines, USS Tullibee and USS Glenard P. Lipscomb, were equipped with turboelectric drives but experienced reliability issues during their service life and were underpowered and maintenance heavy.'''

This statement oversimplifies the facts. ''Tullibee'' was ''designed'' to be "underpowered", this was a deliberate feature of the original ASW hunter-killer concept. Also, there is nothing in the public domain that says ''Tullibee'' "experienced reliability issues" or was "maintenance heavy". Since these facts really apply only to the ''Glenard P. Lipscomb'', the statement should be re-written to remove the reference to ''Tullibee'':

'''Later on, one nuclear-powered attack submarine, the USS ''Glenard P. Lipscomb'', was equipped with a turboelectric drive but experienced reliability issues during her service life and was underpowered and maintenance heavy.'''

Also, a question: does anyone know if the proposed Columbia-class turbo-electric drive is to be AC or DC? The ''Glenard P. Lipscomb'''s problems appear to be the consequence of having a large DC plant. Also, the French turbo-electric drive subs reportedly use AC. The problem with AC is that gearing is necessary for reverse, while reverse with a DC motor is a simple matter of reversing electrical polarity. [[User:Tfdavisatsnetnet|Tfdavisatsnetnet]] ([[User talk:Tfdavisatsnetnet|talk]]) 16:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
:{{Reply to|Tfdavisatsnetnet}} It would be AC, nobody seriously uses DC for motors anymore. AC motors do not need anything fancy to go backwards, they just need somewhat more complicated electronics to run them, look at EV cars, all AC motors, and they go backwards without gearing --[[User:Edman007|Edman007]] ([[User talk:Edman007|talk]]) 03:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
::Very interesting. I would guess that the Navy was not happy with the state of that "somewhat more complicated electronics" circa 1960, hence their fixation on DC and polarity reversal . [[User:Tfdavisatsnetnet|Tfdavisatsnetnet]] ([[User talk:Tfdavisatsnetnet|talk]]) 00:15, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

==Missing numbers==
Query. Noting that the USS ''Columbia'' will be SSBN-826 (and the second of the class, USS ''Wisconsin'', will be SSBN-827), to which vessels are SSBN/SSN 822-825 alloted? I'm assuming here that the ten Block VI and Block VII ''Virginia'' Class SSNs will be SSN 812 to SSN 821. [[User:Rif Winfield|Rif Winfield]] ([[User talk:Rif Winfield|talk]]) 08:08, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
:Not the first time the Navy has left gaps in a hull numbering sequence. And if some of those numbers turn out to not be assigned at all, that won't be the first time either. If you can find an answer in a reliable source, that would be helpful, otherwise, there isn't much we can do here unless/until the Navy makes a decision, which then needs to be announced/reported in a reliable source. Without that, this can just become forum-type discussion which we really don't do here. But for what it's worth, I (and I'm sure others here) are just as curious about this as you. - ''[[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color: black">wolf</span>]]'' 10:24, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
::Many thanks, Regards, Rif. [[User:Rif Winfield|Rif Winfield]] ([[User talk:Rif Winfield|talk]]) 18:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

== Requested move 13 July 2022 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' Nominator's proposal for automatically changing a class name after the namesake vessel changes her name gained no traction. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> — ''Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung'', ''[[User:Mellohi!|mello]]'''''[[User talk:Mellohi!|hi!]]''' ([[Special:Contributions/Mellohi!|投稿]]) 22:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
----

[[:Columbia-class submarine]] → {{no redirect|District of Columbia-class submarine}} – Lead ship was recently renamed so the class name should reflect that as well. – <span style="font-family: Georgia;">'''''[[User:Illegitimate Barrister|Illegitimate Barrister]]'''''</span> ([[User_talk:Illegitimate_Barrister|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Illegitimate Barrister|contribs]]), 19:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
:Not yet. This needs a reliable source that supports the ''class'' name first before renaming this article. [[User:Fnlayson|-Fnlayson]] ([[User talk:Fnlayson|talk]]) 20:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
::Class name automatically follows the lead ship's name, at least in the US Navy. I don't know if a single recent case where it doesn't. If you need a source [https://seapowermagazine.org/dc-congresswoman-pushes-dc-statehood-at-keel-laying-for-navy-submarine/ then here]. – <span style="font-family: Georgia;">'''''[[User:Illegitimate Barrister|Illegitimate Barrister]]'''''</span> ([[User_talk:Illegitimate_Barrister|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Illegitimate Barrister|contribs]]), 07:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' - Has the Navy explicitly said that it will change the class name? If so, I haven't seen it. In fact, a [https://www.navy.mil/DesktopModules/ArticleCS/Print.aspx?PortalId=1&ModuleId=523&Article=3052900 Navy press release] issued the day after the renaming announcement said, "District of Columbia is the first Columbia-class ballistic missile submarine being constructed in the minimum 12-ship class..." Let's hold off on this and similar moves until the Navy says it's changing the class name. [[User:PRRfan|PRRfan]] ([[User talk:PRRfan|talk]]) 20:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
::Class name automatically follows the lead ship's name, at least in the US Navy. I don't know if a single recent case where it doesn't. If you need a source [https://seapowermagazine.org/dc-congresswoman-pushes-dc-statehood-at-keel-laying-for-navy-submarine/ then here]. – <span style="font-family: Georgia;">'''''[[User:Illegitimate Barrister|Illegitimate Barrister]]'''''</span> ([[User_talk:Illegitimate_Barrister|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Illegitimate Barrister|contribs]]), 07:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Oppose for now''' - Until we have confirmation that the USN has changed the class name. [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 22:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - as per above - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color:black">w</span><span style="color: red;">o</span><span style="color:black">lf</span>]] 02:54, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
::Class name automatically follows the lead ship's name, at least in the US Navy. I don't know if a single recent case where it doesn't. If you need a source [https://seapowermagazine.org/dc-congresswoman-pushes-dc-statehood-at-keel-laying-for-navy-submarine/ then here]. – <span style="font-family: Georgia;">'''''[[User:Illegitimate Barrister|Illegitimate Barrister]]'''''</span> ([[User_talk:Illegitimate_Barrister|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Illegitimate Barrister|contribs]]), 07:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
:::You don't need to repeat the same response to more than one person, as that could be considered "[[WP:BLUD|bludgeoning]]". Second, the source you just supplied repeatedly refers to the class as the "Columbia class". So yes, there's one recent case. [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 09:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
::::Was going to say the same about repeatedly posting the same reply, this editor just did the same on the [[USS District of Columbia (SSBN-826)]] talk page. As for a class adopting the name of the lead ship, while that is common, it does not always happen. And as for the "source" provided, the name "Columbia-class" is mentioned in the article four times, while "District of Columbia-class" is only mentioned once, and that is a quote. One person misspeaking a name is hardly a basis to change it. - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color:black">w</span><span style="color: red;">o</span><span style="color:black">lf</span>]] 23:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

Latest revision as of 03:24, 11 March 2024

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Columbia-class_submarine&oldid=1213095342"