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== Revision ==


{{User:MiszaBot/config
An intense war has waged on this page after Griveaux polemic. Now that a few weeks have passed, there are reasons to believe that reequilibrating it was necessary. I based myself on pre-polemic version and integrated post-polemic version, without reusing the most libelous elements, whilst deleting most self-promoting ones. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Elahadji|Elahadji]] ([[User talk:Elahadji#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Elahadji|contribs]]) 11:30, 29 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
|archive = Talk:Juan Branco/Archive %(counter)d

|algo = old(20d)
:: Multiple editors found consensus on the latest version. Turning this article into a hagiography unilaterally only raises suspicions regarding your motives. Assume good faith and make constructive suggestions. [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 13:37, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
|counter = 3
::: Thank you for your message. I'll take the time to answer in detail as this case is important for me.
|maxarchivesize = 150K
:::I do not agree on the objectivity of the current page, nor on the justification regarding consensual agreement over a page that has been widely and almost exclusively edited by an SPA, and widely differs, negatively, from the main one (French), and presents an orientated narrative that is clearly negative. Correcting it by neutralizing is in no ways a temptative to render the page hagiographic.
|minthreadsleft = 4
:::Whatever happened in the history of this page does not justify the obfuscation of verified, sourced elements, the use of speculative wording, including suggestions of criminal behaviour that have never been investigated or been qualified as such in the public space, and so forth. Those have been severed by my corrections, without any temptative to supress factual elements that were adopted.
|minthreadstoarchive = 2
::: Many examples can be taken, but the apperantly most insignificant are revealing, for example the use of "populist" in order to qualify "La France Insoumise", the systematically negative presentation of his political engagement, as with the quote of a "colister" of Branco's 2017 candidacy: legislative candidates in France have no "colisters". Those elements are sparsed in a widespread manner. It is difficult to presume good faith when seeing them accumulated, although I do presume that most editors, which do not master French and have not seen French version or have direct access to the French sources, do not perceive it.
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
::: The individual concerned by this article has been at the heart of a huge polemic, and important attacks both from some media (heavily quoted) and individuals, which have tried to hinder his reputation, have come along. This has clearly affected this page, whatever, once again, the considerations that could be made regarding the previous versions.
}}
:::Having proceeded to the deletion of all informations coming from previous sources - albeit not contradicted since - does not seem to me to be compatible with wikipedia standards.
::: I'll go more into details. The current version is lacunary on essential points. My modifications tend to preserve all the critical aspects that have been added recently, even the most anecdotical ones, whilst adding sourced factual elements (mainly regarding the career) that are missing and are yet of critical importance for context. Those elements are beeing added in the most objective and sober way.
:::I'm also suggesting a neutralization of the wording when it is clearly excessive, inaccurate or incomplete. For example, Branco's carrer elements that were previously mentionned, were sourced and have visibly a critical importance, had disappeared for no reasons (Foreign affairs ministry, international criminal court). His ICC submission, yet considered as a main element by many outlets, was also deleted without reasons. It is impossible to elaborate a biography that cuts away objective elements of such importance, and there is no reason to consider than adding them back is hagiographical.
::: I am not, at this point, entering in any modification that could be considered as unconsensual. I do not consider that the hierarchy of information currently used is legitimate, as it puts in the spotlights anecdotical elements (all negative) whilst hindering structural elements that are either neutral, either positive.
:::I'll be limiting my modifications to elements present in the French version, which has reached a consensual point of equilibrium after two months of heavy redrafting by many contributors which have a more direct access to the original sources than we do.
:::I'm reestablishing MINUSCA as a suggestion, but I'm thinking of transferring it to the MINUSCA page and only keep a shorter version in order not to uneven the page. I'd be glad if any modification happens.
::: Finally, according to Google Trends, Juan Branco was widely known before the Griveaux Case in France, especially regarding his involvement with the yellow jackets (which surprisingly also disapeared). I'm therefore taking away this line, but will not intervene back if it is severed.
::: I have amended my modifications and will be glad to discuss each of them, but I do not consider that general revert would be justified at this stage.
::: I consider that in the current situation, the best way to handle things would be to require a new translation work from the French Version, or to at least refer more extensively to it. In the current situation, the "Abdeslam" information, which is anecdotical, takes more space than most of the substantial elements that were previously held.
:::I suggest to you too to assume good faith regarding this current work, and to respect the temptative to improve the current page. [[User:Elahadji|Elahadji]] ([[User talk:Elahadji|talk]])


::::I will refrain from answering to the far-flung accusations/personal attacks or from commenting on the obvious burst of SPA- and IP-activity which clearly speak for themselves. I will therefore only address specific points:
::::1. The description of La France Insoumise as "populist" is taken from the English Wikipedia page ("La France Insoumise is a democratic socialist, left-wing populist political party in France). The term populist is also not in and of itself "negative" in English. I added the "democratic socialist" part just in case.
::::2. The quote from his former "running-mate" is taken form newspaper articles. Original research has no place on Wikipedia.
::::3. The subjects involvement with the ICC and the French Foreign Ministry has been discussed by multiple newspapers - it appears he was merely an intern - nothing worth mentioning on a Wikipedia page.
::::4. The "yellow vest involvement" has been mentioned.
::::5. I added a paragraph on MINUSCA that translates the French version.
::::6. I'm not sure what the point about Abdeslam is - this was WIDELY reported in French newspapers. Of course it is an "anecdote" (which literally means: "a brief, revealing account of an individual person or an incident" - See: [[Anecdote]]), but so what? It even has it's own section in the French article. Edits: [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 09:19, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
::::[[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 05:56, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
::::: I maintain you are an interested and biaised SPA.
:::::3Untrue. Multiple newspapers have confirmed it wasn't an internship, and a few have tried to contest it with no formal source. Including last article from Le Point, which tries to correct itself as it can.
::::: You do not justify deletion of full carreer steps, including ministry of foreign affairs and ICC. There are more or less fourty indicating the latter is true, and a few trying to create a polemic out of unsourced elements. Le Point had to correct it's article (Ce que Juan branco dit de Assange), by still trying to argue they were right pretending it was not really a contract although he sent the contract etc. There is no serious contestation of this point.
:::::Those profesionnal experiences have less importance than an anecdote you quoted ? Why, if not because you have an oriented perspective on the matter ?
:::::You do not justify the transformation of senior research fellow to junior research fellow (it is a title Branco held, not a subjective qualification anyone can comment on, as the sources clearly indicate).
:::::: This was based on the (old) version. Apparently [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=942462966&oldid=942462530 this] is when it was inserted. I have changed it and added a source. [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 12:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
::::: You do not justify the deletion of his academia information, as the deletion of the PhD title, and other sourced elments.
:::::6 An anecdote has no place on an encyclopedia, and certainly not subjective interpretations of it.
::::: In sum, you keep on imposing a subjective denigration of the subject by the obfuscation of factual facts that is libellous.[[User:Elahadji|Elahadji]] ([[User talk:Elahadji|talk]]) 11:18, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

______

Hi,

I am not sure if this is the proper place to offer those comments but I'll give it a try.
I was jumping to this page from the French version and couldn't help notice how widely different they are.

IMHO, the English version still suffers from the hagiography bias and in particular in the section "private life".
<br>
On several counts : <br>
• the text states that the alleged victim acknowledged "that every step was consensual": this is actually not the case and there are multiple sources out there (in French sorry) from legit newspapers that specifically state that, in her declaration to the police, she claimed to have been both drugged and physically threatened. Quite the opposite.
<br>
https://www.ladepeche.fr/2021/05/02/enquete-pour-viol-contre-lavocat-juan-branco-son-accusatrice-revient-sur-les-faits-9521758.php <br>
https://www.lepoint.fr/faits-divers/juan-branco-accuse-de-viol-ce-qu-a-dit-l-accusatrice-a-la-police-01-05-2021-2424492_2627.php
<br>
• the quoted source to support the "every step was consensual" actually doesn't establish this for a fact: it is just a mere claim from Mr. Branco's lawyer trying to exonerate his client. It's a "he said"
<br>
• furthermore this source's title (a quote from his lawyer again) is giving the impression that this is a political witch hunt ("abusive arrest"). This could be an intend to pass this as statement from the newspaper.

Finally the latest development is that Mr. Branco has now been recently indicted on the charge of rape. As reported by numerous newspapers : <br>
https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2021/11/24/l-avocat-juan-branco-mis-en-examen-pour-viol_6103425_3224.html<br>
https://www.ouest-france.fr/societe/justice/l-avocat-juan-branco-mis-en-examen-a-paris-pour-viol-a18b0fec-4d00-11ec-a0f2-c7fe53b09c00

_______

Nov 2022 : Sorry, redacting out the "his lawyer claims" part.
This is not factual and a lot of he said (not any proof of that AFAIK) to water down the crime accusation / investigation.

_______


<!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ebtpmus|contribs]]) 09:28, 25 November 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Sorry but the text as it is pretty balanced in terms of representing the 2 sides :
:- she claims she was coerced
:- he claims it was consensual
:Nothing in the source says she eventually "consented". [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 11:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

== Waging wars on Wikipedia ==
Wikipedia rules are clear:
"A bold change during an edit war should be an adaptive edit to discourage further warring and not to escalate it; it should never be another revert. Engaging in similar behavior by reverting a contribution during an edit war could be seen as disruptive and may garner sanctions. Never continue an edit war as an uninvolved party."
[[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] and [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]], refrain from savage reverts agaisnt constructive changes. [[User:Elahadji|Elahadji]] ([[User talk:Elahadji|talk]]) 17:39, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

:This is not an accurate reflection of this article's history: The previous version was deemed a hagiography and nominated for deletion (in part) because of this. Instead of deleting it, it was rewritten (based on the French version) to be neutral. Your concerted attempt to revert to the previous hagiography is not a "bold change" but a transparent attempt at PR. Accusing me of being a sock-puppet is some Trumpian level of projection. [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 10:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

==XlnolanX interventions==
[[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] has been acting as a Single Purpose account on this page, focusing on Juan Branco since the polemic regarding Griveaux started. The modifications have crucially distanced this article from an objective status and consensus that had been reached by previous users. I suggest coming back to either adapt changes, either come back to the version before the creation of his account.[[User:Elahadji|Elahadji]] ([[User talk:Elahadji|talk]]) 18:02, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

== Systematic deletion of sourced informations ==

[[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]], an SPA, systematically deletes sourced information (PhD and academia affiliation, basic and sourced professional experiences)) whilst distorting other facts. See below.[[User:Elahadji|Elahadji]] ([[User talk:Elahadji|talk]]) 11:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
:Oh boy... This is getting pretty silly. Please stop trying to use the Wikipedia project as your own PR-agency. And stop trying to bully me or other users. [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 16:38, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

== Recent edits by the article's subject himself ==
It appears at least one of the IPs involved in the recent edit-warring is Branco himself. The IP used [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=948003483 here] is the same Juan Branco himself used in an signed edit of the talk page of the French version ([https://fr.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Juan_Branco&oldid=168928013 here]). As expected, the recent efforts to once again turn this article into a hagiography seem to be orchestrated. [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 15:35, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

:Oh and Branco is also [[User:Elahadji]]: He forgot to sign [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&oldid=948006883 this] which shows his IP. He later [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=948013061&oldid=948011669 signed] the edit as [[User:Elahadji]]. [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 16:29, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

This is actually a multiple band billiard game from the subject:
<br>1 - Trying to force falsehoods (academic titles, career achievements) into Wikipedia
<br>2 - Have this serve as "source" and reprinted by official newspapers that do not do due diligence in verifying facts
<br>3 - Use those reprints from legit sources as proof (for WP).

== Lack of adversarial principle. ==

I readily admit that objectively editing Juan Branco's Wikipedia page is not a small task. Nevertheless, it seems to me that, from the point of view of the contradictory, this page is unbalanced and violates Wikipedia guidelines in term of objectivity.

I submit the following points for discussion :

1/- The Filippetti passage should be, at least, balanced (''"Filippetti later stated that he "demanded to be hired as her chief of staff at age 22", that he "completely lost it when he was refused the position"''). Juan Branco has responded to these accusations. At the same time, he denies having asked to be his chief of staff at the ministry and he confirms he was his chief of staff for the campaign at her own demand : https://twitter.com/anatolium/status/1230240371638259714?s=20 . He published evidence suggesting that she volontarily play with the meaning of the expression. Even if the term of "directeur de cabinet" was unsuitable for a campaign, he really became it during François Hollande campaign at her demand :

- An audio file proves she asked him to be. To source it : https://yetiblog.org/archives/22214 an independant source that published the audio recording that proves she offered him a mission of "directeur de Cabinet".

- Moreover, the press has always mentioned him as his "directeur de cabinet" in 2012. https://www.latribune.fr/technos-medias/20120531trib000701243/un-nouvel-enarque-au-cabinet-d-aurelie-filippetti-.html and also https://www.lesinrocks.com/2012/05/24/web/actualite/hadopi/ It is not a question of deciding between the two, but of re-establishing a balance.

2/ "After he was refused a sufficiently high spot on the electoral list of La France Insoumise" : According to Lagardere owned tabloid Paris Match? I didnt know daily mail and tabloid equivalents were considered as legitimate sources. Branco denied that point, and nobody never confirm it. (Maybe a paragraph that would explain that his best-seller, Crépuscule, made revelations on these media could be a good thing. We cannot understand the articles tone on him without that context.)

3/ "In 2018 he outed the homosexuality of his former class-mate Gabriel Attal on Twitter.[9]" That presentation of fact seems to voluntarily let think that it was his purpose. However, it was not a secret (they were Pacsed (sort of civil marriage)) and it was to explain the political ascension of this Attal that this relationship was described. Nepotism denonciation was the goal, not outing ( cf. https://twitter.com/anatolium/status/1052956272675495937?s=20 )

I have nothing against the fact that appears here what some accuse him, on condition however to indicate when Branco denied the facts. It is well done in this passage ("Multiple sources claim that Juan Branco was himself involved in the leak,[18] a criminal offense under French law.[19] This was denied by Branco. ") so why is it not elsewhere? That gives a very branco bashing oriented tone to the article. This entry must escape to a hagiographic tone just as much as a bashing tone.

Ps: The infobox is very uncomplete (compared to the french page), but I'm not an expert and i don't know how to link the information to the wikidata ressources on Branco. For example, it seems to be important to know more about his preofessional experiences and a little bit more about his studies, Yale for example, that sounds an info more revelant for english readers. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2A01:E0A:295:24D0:114D:24D8:365:3741|2A01:E0A:295:24D0:114D:24D8:365:3741]] ([[User talk:2A01:E0A:295:24D0:114D:24D8:365:3741#top|talk]]) 11:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Restauration ==

Hello,

I restaured last consensual version before it was bashed by two french accounts. Seen the very few English sources, please check on French version (which is heavily controlled by the community) before any substantial modification and avoid adding elements that have not previously reached consensus that could trigger new editorial wars. I'm considering to sue the two French accounts that systematically try to use this page to wage personal wars against its subject, which I've refrained until now to remain in the spirit of the community. But the low-intensity control of this page from the EN community - understandable seen it is not a high value subject on this version of WP - does not provide with much alternatives. For their information, the 3 months statute of limitations is renewed everytime they intervene in this page. To all the other contributors: sorry for the bother, but there are limits to the violence that have been crossed.
yours,
JB <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2A01:CB04:B16:B300:6DD0:C936:EFFA:A4BC|2A01:CB04:B16:B300:6DD0:C936:EFFA:A4BC]] ([[User talk:2A01:CB04:B16:B300:6DD0:C936:EFFA:A4BC#top|talk]]) 21:31, 23 November 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Last "consensual" version? ==
This is the last consensual version before D.Lazard started intervening on the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=941967204&oldid=941404845

As seen in the historic, after shared and long lasting community work, the page had become consensual and triggered only marginal changes. Once D.Lazard intervened, joined soon after by SPA [[User:EdgarAllanFrost]], both French accounts with visible subjectivity over the matter, no consensus was ever reached again, ending up into a completly, and polemics became systematic.

The current page has become completly desequilibrated, giving much more space to polemics that are presented in altered, biaised perspectives, than to objective facts, let alone positive elements, which are reduced to almost nothing, triggering a very thought and willingfully nourrished negative perception of the matter.
Pretending that the current version is consensual is an insult to intelligence, as seen by the historic of the page, and compared to how it was held before these two contributors started modifying it. Re. false claims of SPA or manipulation from my side, I can only reaffirm that all my interventions have been signed, or claimed a posteriori when they hadn't been. I disagree with any reasoning that would rely on these elements to justify this page becoming a bashing exercice. This is not how Wikipedia should be handled. https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=941967204&oldid=941404845
[[User:Brancojuan|Brancojuan]] ([[User talk:Brancojuan|talk]]) 20:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

:Looking at the talk page and at the page history, I don't see where that version represents a ''consensus'' among editors to this article—at the least, certainly not among independent editors. —'''[[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]]''' ([[User_talk:C.Fred|talk]]) 20:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
::This version was the fruit of many users work. By giving a quick look at the evolution of the historic of the page, it is possible to check my words and perceive how indeed, the page , which was until then consensually built by many different users, never became consensual again, in a timeframe that corresponds to the begining of the intervention of the two said accounts, D. Lazard and EdgarAllanFrost. It would be, in my opinion, absurd to consider in contrast the current version as "consensual" seen the editorial wars that have sparsed it since they started intervening on the page, with no intent to reach any objectivity, systematically deleting or reducing the importance of positive elements and giving massive space to negative elements, even when based on rumors or interested sources. Preserving their version, without any confirmed perspective of a future remodeling of the whole page that would make it steady, would be acting in a ponce pilatian fashion. It would (secondarily?) signify letting two anonymous individuals using this platform to destroy, for unknown reasons, the reputation of a 30 years old person, by distorting facts, invisibilise most of what he has built during that time, and giving visibility only to what hinders him in the anglophone sphere. Any quick look given at the French version, previous versions of this page, and the reality or simply objective reading (for.ex: one line over Julian Assange, whose collaboration with has triggered tens and tens of secondary sources, four lines over a distorted article published by an french extreme right media over a letter sent to a prisonner rightafter). Over what merit should this behavior be protected by the institution, and how can you justify it, whatever your perception about what should be my role or not over this page ? Brancojuan (talk) 20:44, 24 November 2020 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Brancojuan|Brancojuan]] ([[User talk:Brancojuan#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Brancojuan|contribs]]) </span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::A "quick look" shows the history is a mess. It is obvious that you have repeatedly edited the article under a number of accounts and while logged out. It is unclear who has edited from the "other side" of the dispute and what interrelations they have. They make a point about the tone issues in your preferred version. It's harder to see where the current version tilts completely to the negative side, when the negative information was so concealed in the other version.
:::IMO, you need to accept that the article is in its current state, whether it reflects consensus, ''status quo ante'', or it's just [[m:The Wrong Version|The Wrong Version]]. The way forward is to make specific requested edits and base them on reliable sources. Once the sources are reviewed by independent editors and consensus is reached, the change can be incorporated ''by independent editors''. —'''[[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]]''' ([[User_talk:C.Fred|talk]]) 20:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
:::: [[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]], these elements you are asking for are distributed over the discussion page, have been very clearly enounced, and sourced, but have been systematically withdrawn by the two said accounts, in spite of interventions by me but also by other less systematic contributors which have no link to me, but visibly not the capacity to derail the afforementioned wills. They rely over important sources, were consensual before their arrival, and have been shrinked or erased because they found it interesting to do so, only leaving space to new negative elements that arouse at the same time, in the context of intense polemic in France due to the withdrawal of Emmanuel Macron candidate to Paris Cityhall, after the action of one of my clients. What happens in this situation, in a low intensity page in which it suffices to have a lot of time to impose its view ? Why should their version, libellous be maintained undefinitely, since that no other user whom has taken the time to try to reequilibrate this page has been systematically turned down, and since no experimented administrator has until now taken the time to actually solve the issues ? What you are proposing is ''de facto'' an undefinite preservation of the perspective imposed by two users, including a SPA, which have made of this page a playgame to whether their resentment, their subjectivity or their interests, containing false accusations and a disproportionately negative perspective. It is, whilst admitting this version is not consensual nor objective - and not because I say so, but factually - that it should serve as the reference version until someone has the time to eventually look at it. Weaponizing Wikipedia as these users have very efficiently done (and tried to do in the French Version), should not be awarded by the encyclopedia, especially when it is done against (young) living individuals occupying confrontational positions against important institutions and powers, with little capacities to defend themselves. The example of the WP FR should be used to understand the abyss between WP EN version and, not only reality, but what a community consensus can produce. [[User:Brancojuan|Brancojuan]] ([[User talk:Brancojuan|talk]]) 21:06, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
For the record, the so-called "consensual version" is the version at the opening date of the second AfD of this article (see at the top of this page). The AfD discussion shows clearly that this version was a hagiography, and the consensus for keeping the article was reach only because of major edits that were done during the AfD discussion. So, it is definitively a lie to say that this version was consensual. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 14:26, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

== Sourcing ==

There does need to be a serious review of sourcing on this article - some sources, like IMDB (generally unreliable according to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources]]) are clearly unsuitable. This is a BLP and we should be using high quality [[WP:RS]].[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 09:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
: Wikileaks is also considered as Generally Unreliable on WP:RS/P, but the use here could be OK as [[WP:ABOUTSELF]], although if we can source his relationship to Wikileaks to independent sources, then that would be better.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 09:32, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

== Lead ==
I think the lead could still use some rework.

The current version:
:He was identified as a Yellow Vest defender and one of the French Assange lawyers. He defends some of the Yellow Vests in court and the movement in the media. His 2019 book, criticizing the links between President Emmanuel Macron, the media and wealthy businessmen, was a success on the internet and sold 130,000 copies. He gained supplementary notoriety in France in early 2020 for his involvement in the Griveaux affair.

Some parts seems rather redundant (e.g. mentioning the Yellow Vests twice). The passive construction "was identified" also seems clumsy. The accusation in the book should not be stated as fact. The word "supplementary" is probably a direct translation from French and doesn't work very well imo.

I suggest:
:He worked on the legal team of Julian Assange and has been an outspoken supporter of the Yellow Vest movement, some of which he also represented in court. In 2019 he authored a commercially successful book critical of French President Emmanuel Macron. In early 2020 he gained further notoriety for his involvement in the Griveaux affair.

[[User:EdgarAllanFrost|EdgarAllanFrost]] ([[User talk:EdgarAllanFrost|talk]]) 09:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
::I agree with the suggestion. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 10:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

== Book reviews ==
I'd like to insert some reviews of "Crépuscule" and "L'Antisouverain". To avoid future arguments I'd suggest collecting every available review by reputable sources first. Here is what I found so far, let me know if I missed any:

<u>Crépuscule</u>

# [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/critique-des-medias-attaques-sur-macron-on-a-lu-crepuscule-le-livre-censure-de-juan-branco_3403909.html Clément Parrot - France Télévisions]
# [https://www.marianne.net/culture/crepuscule-juan-branco-livre-critique Étienne Girard - Marianne]
# [http://www.slate.fr/story/176217/livre-crepuscule-juan-branco-fact-checking-pouvoir-emmanuel-macron-politique-medias Antoine Hasday - Slate]
# [https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/avis-critique/avis-critique-emission-du-samedi-11-mai-2019 Eugénie Bastié - France Culture]
# [https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/culture-idees/250419/crepuscule-juan-branco-decouvre-la-lune?onglet=full Joseph Confavreux - Mediapart]
# [https://www.letemps.ch/opinions/peur-revolutionnaire-juan-branco Richard Werly - Le Temps]
# [https://www.humanite.fr/essai-crepuscule-democratique-671943 Maurice Ulrich - l'Humanité - PAYWALLED] <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/XInolanIX|contribs]]) 10:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

<u>L'Antisouverain</u>

# [https://www.lepoint.fr/livres/ce-que-juan-branco-dit-de-julian-assange-09-03-2020-2366377_37.php Baudouin Eschapasse - Le Point]

[[User:XInolanIX|XInolanIX]] ([[User talk:XInolanIX|talk]]) 19:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

:Took me a while, but i finally got around to this. Here's my suggestion: Under the section "'''Writer'''":
::In 2019 he published the book "Crépuscule", a pamphlet in which he criticized the French president, which sold more than 130.000 copies.
::The book received mostly negative reviews in the French press. Joseph Confavreux panned the book as a "lampoon", which remains harmless as much as it is "solipsistic", "arrogant and vague", while calling the author "fatuitous" and his style "pretentious".<ref>https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/culture-idees/250419/crepuscule-juan-branco-decouvre-la-lune?onglet=full</ref> Eugénie Bastié described the book as "simplistic".<ref>https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/avis-critique/avis-critique-emission-du-samedi-11-mai-2019</ref> Antoine Hasday notes that the book is in part interesting but suffers from it's "unverifiable, unsourced and false claims".<ref>http://www.slate.fr/story/176217/livre-crepuscule-juan-branco-fact-checking-pouvoir-emmanuel-macron-politique-medias</ref> Ètienne Girard calls the author a "genius of self-promotion" while noting "regret, that the book struggles to support it's claims of political scandals".<ref>https://www.marianne.net/culture/crepuscule-juan-branco-livre-critique</ref> Similarly, Clément Parrot notes that the book raises valid questions about the elitism of French society and media while faulting the author for failing to source his accusations.<ref>https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/critique-des-medias-attaques-sur-macron-on-a-lu-crepuscule-le-livre-censure-de-juan-branco_3403909.html</ref> Richard Werly writes in his review that Branco should not be taken seriously for his accusations, "which are often inflated, exaggerated, indeed false" but should be taken seriously for his inflammatory rhetoric and his denunciations of nepotism in French society.<ref>https://www.letemps.ch/opinions/peur-revolutionnaire-juan-branco</ref>

::His book "Assange - L'antisouverain" was published in February 2020. Baudouin Eschapasse, reviewing the book for the French magazine [[Le Point]], calls it a "self-portrait" of the author and a "literary selfie" while questioning the sincerity of the author.<ref>https://www.lepoint.fr/livres/ce-que-juan-branco-dit-de-julian-assange-09-03-2020-2366377_37.php</ref>

:Given the constant squabbling about this article and the legal threats by Branco, I'd be happy to get some feedback before I add the changes. If someone has access to the review by Maurice Ulrich in l'Humanité, feel free to add a brief summary.
:One additional point: The French version of the article has a section about Branco claiming to have been a "special assistant" at the ICC - a claim denied by the court. I'm considering adding it to the '''Legal Work''' section. Thoughts? [[User:EdgarAllanFrost|EdgarAllanFrost]] ([[User talk:EdgarAllanFrost|talk]]) 18:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

::I oppose to expand more about Branco books, at least per [[WP:NPOV]]: in biographies of French politicians, their books, even when they are best sellers, are not always mentioned, and when they are, are not described in more than one line (I did a quick check on [[Emmanuel Macron]], [[François Hollande]], [[Nicolas Sarkosy]] and [[Ségolène Royal]]. There is no reason for a special treatement for writings of Juan Branco. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 19:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

::: Thank you for the quick reply, [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]]. My arguments for the inclusion are:
::::1. Branco is not primarily a politician and certainly nowhere near as well-known as Macron, Hollance, etc.
::::2. His notoriety is at least partly due to his book about Macron (as per the lead).
::::3. Maybe he can be compared - in style, if not in substance - to political commentators like [[Dave Rubin]] or [[Ann Coulter]], whose books are more prominently featured in their articles.

:::If you remain unconvinced, how about the following compromise: As with the above mentioned article of [[Dave Rubin]], the book could be described as follows
::::''Branco's book "Crépuscule", a pamphlet in which he criticized the French president, was published in 2019. It was commercially successful[ref] but received mostly negative reviews in the French press [multiple refs]''.

:::[[User:EdgarAllanFrost|EdgarAllanFrost]] ([[User talk:EdgarAllanFrost|talk]]) 08:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
::::This would be fine. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 09:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
{{talkref}}

== Neutrality ==

Honestly this article is a gross tentative to destroy an individual. There is not a positive or neutral thing that is not immediatley outweighted by gratuitious negative elements. Whom has done this job ? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2A01:CB04:B16:B300:5C4E:898E:A030:102C|2A01:CB04:B16:B300:5C4E:898E:A030:102C]] ([[User talk:2A01:CB04:B16:B300:5C4E:898E:A030:102C#top|talk]]) 11:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Please be more specific and provide reliable sources to anything noteworthy you would like added to the article. Please also note it's not the job of Wikipedia to provide "positive or negative" elements, but to provide information based on reliable sources. I'm leaving the POV flags for now, but baseless claims do not a POV constitute.
:To give you a bit of background information: The article was twice written as a hagiography. The first time it was deleted, the second time the community voted to rewrite it. Mr. Branco has been interfering on this page and Wikipedia in general for many years (see relevant section). Showing up with substantive reverts without prior discussions and flinging accusations therefore is not the proper way to handle this matter. [[User:EdgarAllanFrost|EdgarAllanFrost]] ([[User talk:EdgarAllanFrost|talk]]) 12:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
:: what is this bulshit page ?? Who are you EdgarAllanFrost ? Please let the neutrality advice and keep all the crap aside ! Quote English things, you french ! And stop using SPAs !!!!!! <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.133.7.219|94.133.7.219]] ([[User talk:94.133.7.219#top|talk]]) 00:01, 30 December 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Protection ==

Pursuant to a request at [[WP:RFPP]], I have [[WP:GOLDLOCK|fully protected]] this page. As always, this does not constitute an endorsement of [[WP:STABLE|the current version]].

I urge all involved editors to remember that [[WP:BLP|our policy on biographies of living persons]] gives article subjects a wide berth when blanking or otherwise removing content about themselves they may feel is [[WP:LIBEL|defamatory or libelous]], that such edits should '''not''' be construed as vandalism, and that complaining about such material [[WP:NLT|does not violate our policy on legal threats]].

As for the subject of this article, if he is indeed concerned about bias in the article, he should [[Wikipedia:Contact us/Article subjects|contact the Wikimedia Foundation]]. [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 09:02, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

:Crosspost from user-talk-page for visibility: I disagree with your re-inclusion of the dispute/POV tags which I removed in accordance with policy (When to remove: "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given"). There are no factual elements in dispute, merely unsourced accusations of "bulshit" [sic] and a "gross tentative to destroy an individual". Other administrators have already been involved (notably [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#Brancojuan here)]. As for the substance: I defer to the convincing arguments made by [[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]] above. The article has quite the illustrious history; if you are fluent in French I'd suggest reading [https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/sur-wikipedia-les-vies-revees-de-juan-branco-20200221 this] article (archived [https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/f7sow4/sur_wikip%C3%A9dia_les_vies_r%C3%AAv%C3%A9es_de_juan_branco/ here]). [[User:EdgarAllanFrost|EdgarAllanFrost]] ([[User talk:EdgarAllanFrost|talk]]) 12:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

== Tags ==

The 3 tags were placed by a new user, without any discussion on the talk page. The present state of the article results essentially from the consensus supporting the closing decision of the second AfD. So, non-neutrality, and factual non-accuracy require strong arguments to be considered as disputed. The {{tl|COI}} tag is ridiculous as the main contributors are clearly not favorable to the subject of the article. Therefore, I'll remove the three tags. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 12:12, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 March 2021 ==

{{edit extended-protected|Juan Branco|answered=yes}}
{{subst:trim|1=

The whole article is hagiographical. This person is more well-known for publicly trying to be associated with well-known cases, than actually having any substantial contribution to any of them.

All reference to Julian Assange should be removed. Maybe they had some contact at some point, thinking he was serious, but he was not on his legal team. His lawyer was Vey: https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20200907-julian-assange-is-a-victim-of-torture-lawyer-antoine-vey-tells-france-24 There is only one source saying that he was a legal correspondant of WikiLeaks (not Assange) at one point, but that is not notable. There are also sources mentioning him as being on his team, but never when the article is about Assange, this is because he is claiming it everywhere and nobody verifies. If he has been involved at some point, it has necessarily been extremely brief, like in the other cases.

Therefore:

*The second line of the introduction is not neutraly worded in any case. It could be: "He has been briefly associated or tried to be associated with a number of cases or well-known organisation or persons. He has been involved in various political movements, lost an election for [[La&nbsp;France Insoumise]] and afterwards has been refused substantial positions."

*The education is not neutral either, and there plenty of statements without serious sources (imbd!). It could be: "Branco was born in [[Estepona]], near Málaga. He is the son of film producer [[Paulo Branco]]. He studied at the [[École normale supérieure (Paris)|École normale supérieure]]. He got in 2016 a doctorate in Law with a thesis on the [[Germain Katanga]] ICC's case,<ref name=":1">{{Cite news|url=http://success-stories.fr/juan-branco-lobbyiste-militant-liberte-expression/|title=Juan Branco, portrait d'un lobbyiste militant de la liberté d'expression|date=2016-06-28|work=Success Stories|access-date=2018-09-19|language=fr-FR}}</ref>. He was a senior research fellow for one year at the Max Planck Institute Luxembourg for International, European and Regulatory Procedural Law from 2015 to 2016.<ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.mpi.lu/the-institute/senior-research-fellows/juan-branco/ |title=Archived copy |access-date=2016-05-16 |archive-date=2016-05-16 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160516184101/http://www.mpi.lu/the-institute/senior-research-fellows/juan-branco/ |url-status=live }}</ref>

*Section: "Politics" and not activism
**"He became a vocal supporter of the [[Yellow" to "He supported the [[Yellow"
**Delete: " and a critic of [[President of France]] [[Emmanuel Macron]] thereafter" It is not information-worthy and he was nowhere to be important in being so. Already a mention of his book below.

*Section: not "Legal Work" but "Claims and attempts of involvement in well-known cases"
**"After his admission to the Bar of Paris, he represented [[Jean-Luc Mélenchon]] beginning in 2017. His work with Mélenchon ended in 2018 for unknown reasons." should go to "political activism" and the following sentence about his father in the education section. Or both in "other".
**The last sentence is like a CV. The sources' title are about the firing and the expulsion. Tt should be: "He was fired by the UN less than a week after it gave him a mission in 2018, where he has tasked with developing a strategy for investigations conducted by the Special Criminal Court in the Central African Republic, but, once in the country, accused peacekeeping forces of the United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in the Central African Republic ([[MINUSCA]]) of having been involved in a massacre in the city of [[Bangui]] - an accusation denied by MINUSCA. He was expelled from the country..<ref>{{Cite news|url=https://fr.africanews.com/2018/05/31/centrafrique-la-minusca-expulse-un-expert-francais-qui-l-accuse-de-crimes}}</ref> <ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-centralafrica-un/un-fires-central-africa-legal-adviser-who-accused-peacekeepers-of-massacre-idUSKCN1IW265}}</ref>"

*Section "writer" should be "other"
**The first sentence about writing for magazines has no serious source and the statement is not even in the French even more laudative version of the article: to be removed.
**The statement of the success of the book has no available source, it should be deleted and at least neutraly worded: "Branco's book "Crépuscule", in which he criticized the French president received negative reviews in the French press.<ref>https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/culture-idees/250419/crepuscule-juan-branco-decouvre-la-lune?onglet=full</ref><ref>https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/avis-critique/avis-critique-emission-du-samedi-11-mai-2019</ref><ref>http://www.slate.fr/story/176217/livre-crepuscule-juan-branco-fact-checking-pouvoir-emmanuel-macron-politique-medias</ref><ref>https://www.marianne.net/culture/crepuscule-juan-branco-livre-critique</ref><ref>https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/critique-des-medias-attaques-sur-macron-on-a-lu-crepuscule-le-livre-censure-de-juan-branco_3403909.html</ref><ref>https://www.letemps.ch/opinions/peur-revolutionnaire-juan-branco</ref>"

<!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. -->
}} [[Special:Contributions/203.69.105.3|203.69.105.3]] ([[User talk:203.69.105.3|talk]]) 10:10, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
:These changes will certainly be controversial, so please get consensus for the changes before requesting an edit. I recommend breaking the changes up into smaller sections, and working on them independently. With this many changes it will be difficult to get consensus for the whole kit and kaboodle at once. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 12:21, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Edit-war ==

It is not written anywhere that the woman reported "abuse", "coerce" and "threat". Both sides should be described, even if somebody talks through legal representation. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]]: what is your opinion? --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 18:02, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]]: the previous version was not original research, since it only reported what was in the source, the current is, since it used terms and ideas that are not in the sources (abuse, coerce, threat). --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 08:20, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
:It is the way of summarizing that is original research. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 09:23, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
::The text right now is just false. Nothing in the source says that she accused him of "abuse", "coercion" or "threat", only that she "felt he would become violent" and that she pushed him away twice when he approached her, nothing else. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 14:33, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

== Emmanuel Macron's ties with French billionaire shareholders of French Press ==

Hello @D.Lazard

Here you have multiple sources, I see you speak french so I keep them french :

« Comment les médias ont (déjà) réélu Macron - Par Pauline Bock | Arrêt sur images », sur www.arretsurimages.net

Daniel Schneidermann, « Emmanuel Macron, «candidat des médias» : autopsie d’un choix implicite », sur Libération

Marie Bénilde, « Emmanuel Macron, le candidat des médias », sur Le Monde diplomatique, 1er mai 2017 [[User:Username1789|Username1789]] ([[User talk:Username1789|talk]]) 23:10, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

:These sources can clearly not be called “neutral”, as they are medias asserting that “the medias” have not the same political choice as they have. This is self-contradictory, at least. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 10:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:D.Lazard|@D.Lazard]] That's WP:POV. Of course medias owned by billionaires (90% of French press owned by 9 billionaires) will not critizice their owners. The 3 independant sources are crearly stating in the core text the ties between Emmanuel Macron and big French billionaires shareholder in the press, please don't stop at the headlines. [[User:Username1789|Username1789]] ([[User talk:Username1789|talk]]) 17:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

== Many assertions relying on sources that have conflict of Interest with Juan Branco ==

Hello, I see many assertions in this article relying on 1 or 2 sources that are at conflict of Interest with Juan Branco because of his book Crepuscule critizing them and/or revealing their dependancy to their billionaires shareholders. For example, one Parisien article (owned by Bernard Arnault, heavely critized in the book) is used 4 times to quote negative elements on Juan Branco - it's the 3rd citation "Tabet Le Parisien dans les réseaux de Juan Branco". There are also citations from Paris Match that are COI.

Could the person that added these quotes find other more independant sources ? I can't find these elements in other independant articles so if there is no further citations added I might delete the quotes. [[User:Username1789|Username1789]] ([[User talk:Username1789|talk]]) 18:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

== Threats ==

It is well established that Juan Branco uses [[sockpuppetry]] to try making this article more favorable to him. In this talk page and in the history of the article [[Juan Branco]], users Brancojuan, Elahadji, Username1789, RoxxorOscar, Paulk12, Salmasalma2, and sevral IP users are sockpuppets or suspected sockpuppets of Juan Branco.

In {{alink|Self-promotion on Wikipedia}}, it is also documented that Juan Branco uses threats outside Wikipedia for the same purpose. I am a new victim of such a behavior of Juan Branco. Here is a mail received at my personal address:
{{quote|Monsieur le Professeur d'université émérite Daniel Lazard,

je me permets de vous écrire afin de vous informer de votre identification sur l'encyclopédie Wikipedia, sous le nom d'utilisateur D.Lazard.

Vous avez, au cours des dernières années, et en appui ou avec l'appui d'une autre personne (sous le pseudo XlNolanX, devenu EdgarAllanFrost, et son faux nez , contribué à publier de façon répétée des informations diffamatoires, ne pouvant bénéficier ni de l'exception de vérité ni de la bonne foi.

Ces publications ont atteint lourdement à ma réputation, à mes intérêts professionnels et à ceux de mon cabinet, entraînant de lourdes et violentes conséquences sociales et personnelles. Ils ont atteint aux intérêts de mes proches, de mes clients et des personnes que je défendais. Ils ont non seulement entaché mon honneur, ma considération mais aussi ma présomption d'innocence.

Vos interventions sont en conséquences constitutives des délits de diffamation publique et d'injure, et constituent des faits de dénigrement au sens de la Cour de cassation.

La cour de cassation a établi que le simple fait de rétablir ou de poster des paroles diffamatoires déjà existantes sur une plateforme en ligne est constitutive d'une nouvelle publication poursuivable en tant que telle, y compris lorsqu'ils prennent source en des publications antérieures effectuées par des personnes tierces.

C'est donc avec un véritable soulagement que je vous annonce qu'une plainte pénale sera déposée prochainement à votre encontre.

Je vous met en demeure de toute réitération de vos actes.

Juan Branco}}
and two mails received by the web master of my university:
{{quote|Bonjour,

je vous remercie. Votre ancien collège a, de façon obsessionnelle et systématique, arpenté Wikipedia afin d'y publier des informations extraordinairement dénigrantes et violentes me concernant, notamment sur la page Wikipedia anglaise, ainsi que sur d'autres personnes, tout en créant ses propres pages en plusieurs langues.

Je ne sais quels motifs l'habitaient. Je sais cependant les dommages irréparables et la violence indécente qui s'en est suivie pour moi, à des âges où tout est encore à construire. Qu'un professeur honoraire des universités se soit "amusé" à cela, des années durant, usant de son autorité dans le champs mathématique (où il est un grand contributeur de l'encyclopédie), pour détruire un jeune homme, sous pseudo, est dégoûtant.

Cordialement,

Juan Branco}}
and
{{quote|Monsieur,

je reviens vers vous afin de déterminer si vous avez pu trouver un contact de M. Lazard. Celui-ci en est à sa 153e publication, en moins de trois ans, me concernant. C'est un harcèlement inacceptable.

Cette affaire est d'autant plus grave que M. Lazard, au regard des éléments recueillis et notamment des adresses IP, a vraisemblablement, pendant une grande partie de cette période, fait usage de vos équipements.

Elle l'est également d'un point de vue moral, au regard de son statut, de son appartenance revendiquée à la communauté normalienne et à la fixation obsessionnelle qu'il semble faire sur la distinction entre "vrais" et faux normaliens, qui par ricochet atteint à de nombreuses autres personnes.

Juan Branco}}

I do not translate these mails in English to be sure to not change any meaning.

I do not really care of these threats, since they have absolutely no support in French law. Nevertheless, I think that the editors of this page and, more generally Wikipedia, must be informed of this Branco’s behavior. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 14:43, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

== Expand French ==

Hello @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]], what do you mean by "this article doesn't need expansion" ? I see that it is rated as "start-class" [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:07, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
:Maybe so, but the article is quite large, and although the French article ''is'' longer, I don't think expansion templates are of much use when you have articles of this size. You'd do better to expand it yourself rather than slapping on a template.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 18:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
::Sorry I don't understand, goal of the template is to allow other people (and myself) to easily add translated content from the French article, why do you call that "slapping" ? This article is "start-class" while the French is "B-class", meaning many important informations seems to be lacking. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:57, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] So, could you please let me add the template if you want me and others to be able to translate easily ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
:::You still have not explained how the template helps you to add information from the French article. As I already stated, why don't you just do that? In fact, why don't you do it with other articles as well rather than single-mindedly doing nothing but placing templates on various articles?--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 18:04, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
::::Ad hominem ? It helps because it provides instant access to French article's translation (and guidelines), to ''anyone'' who has time to add content, which I eventually found much more useful than just acting on my own ''and'' is recommended here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Translation]. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

== Recent expansion of the article ==

The article has recently been largely expanded (almost +50%) by translating the French version. The result is that the new version does not follow the rules of English Wikipedia (that are not exactly the same as those of French Wikipedia, in particular for [[WP:notability]]. For example, the details of one year position and the corresponding salaries have nothing to do here. Also the added content contains non-neutral assertions, such as the opinion of the subject on his salaries, and the mention of the opinion of the French President. Also, there are too many details that do not participate to the notability of the subjects and are certainly of no interest for non-French people.

For these reasons, I'll restore the previous stable version, that is the one with the summary edit "doesn't need expansion". [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 14:06, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

:Hello @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]], I am sorry I don't really understand your point regarding [[WP:notability]] since it seems this criteria is ''only'' for article creation, ''not'' for content as written here : [[WP:Notability#Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists]].
:Also, if you (still) think some content is unrelevant according to another specific english-Wikipedia policy, you can just modify/erase ''this particular'' content and explain why and which policy. Therefore, I will add again the content following this policy : [[Wikipedia:Translation|[1]]]. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 15:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
::Notability is used as a shorthand in these circumstances for "noteworthy", which the guideine you cite mentions. Whether content added to an article is noteworthy is always a question that should be asked. In this instance, the amount of material you're adding to the article is excessive, which means it is [[WP:UNDUE]]. Also, D. Lazard is correct that some of the material is self-serving, and in general we do not add such material to [[WP:BLP]]s. Also, too much of the material is hard to follow by an English reader; even though it is written in English, it is akwardly phrased in English, e.g., the part about him collecting some version of welfare. Finally, it is unreasonable for you to add so much material that does not comply with en.wiki guidelines because you are unfamiliar with them and expect other editors, like me, to go in and fix all the errors.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 15:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
:::Oh okay, but I am surprised about your answer @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] since you said in the section above "You'd do better to expand it yourself rather than slapping on a template" so I tried to expand it myself, following the guidelines : checking accuracy of translation and sources every time, which takes time.
:::Although it is not perfect, I think it is ''still'' a big improvment to add all these missing informations to a "start-class" article, and maybe there is some undue or self-serving that we can erase.
:::As far from what I read, most of the informations you quoted (one year position, salary, reaction to it, decline of Asssange's asylum) comes from French jounalistic biographies of the subject [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html][https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/juan-branco-le-radical-chic-qui-veut-la-peau-de-la-macronie_2061348.html][https://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/juan-branco-itineraire-d-un-enfant-gate-devenu-activiste-sans-scrupule-20200218] and seems to be relevant to assess his pathway ''according to'' the journalists (and French Wikipedia).
:::I will reformulate the part on welfare (and any other part you indicate), I will also try to add further material ''slower'' so that we have time to double-check everytime. Feel free to indicate any spot that you find undue/self-serving/poorly formulated directly on the article. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 16:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

== RFC about the content recently added ==
{{archive top
|result = Another RfC has been opened on this topic. Closing this discussion to avoid confusion. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:05, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
|status = closed}}
The page has been largely expanded recently by a single editor. Should the previous stable version be restored? [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 15:13, 12 May 2023 (UTC).

=== Discussion ===

The page has been largely expanded recently by a single editor, against the opinion of two editors (myself included, see above discussions).

I propose to restore the [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1145793774 version of 02:05, 21 March 2023]. Here are the reasons:

The only notability criterion that Juan Branco passes, is to have received significant coverage at some time in multiple published news. The article has been the subject of two AfD. The second AfC resulted in "keep" after that another editor rewrote the article into a version that is very similar to the version that I suggest to restore.

The difference between the new version and the previous stable one consist mainly to
add details that have nothing to do with the notability of the subject (such as the details of the exams he passed during its education, and the details of the cases on which he worked as a lawyer), and opinion of the subject on various institutions (such as the shools where he studied). Moreover, some of these details are sourced from Branco's CV, which is an especially unreliable source, as Branco is known for embellishing it (and trying to embellish his Wikipedia page).

So the recent expansion go against policies and guidelines of [[WP:UNDUE]], [[WP:NPOV]], and [[WP:Notability (people)]]. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 15:13, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

:Hello @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]], all the content I added is translated content from the French article [[:fr:juan branco]] (which is of higher quality : rated "B-class", while this one is only "start-class") following [[WP:Translation]]. I checked the informations and the vast majority comes from journalistic biographies of the subjects [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html <nowiki>[2]</nowiki>][https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/juan-branco-le-radical-chic-qui-veut-la-peau-de-la-macronie_2061348.html <nowiki>[3]</nowiki>][https://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/juan-branco-itineraire-d-un-enfant-gate-devenu-activiste-sans-scrupule-20200218 <nowiki>[4]</nowiki>] so it seems to be relevant to assess his pathway ''according to'' the journalists.
:I don't know much about this article's history, but you could have provided the link to the section you already created on the topic, where I already responded :[[Talk:Juan Branco#Recent expansion of the article]].
:And also [[Talk:Juan Branco#Expand French]] for 2nd editor, where you see that he is not "against" expansion with translated content, but actually asked me to "expand it myself", which I did.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1152348711] Although it is true that he ''then'' found my expansion undue, I don't know if he speaks French and is able to check the sources.
:Finally, on the [[WP:notability]] criterion, as already said, I don't understand why you refer to this policy which is ''only'' for article creation, ''not'' for content as written here : [[Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists]]. But anyway, I think you are forgetting his book and lawyer activities which have received a significant coverage (many sources on these topics already in the article). [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 16:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

*{{sbb}} {{u|D.Lazard}}, the opening statement here doesn't comply with [[WP:RFCNEUTRAL]], could you please provide a neutral introductory question and move your argumentation to a discussion section? <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 16:36, 12 May 2023 (UTC) {{endash}} <small> {{Done}}. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 17:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)</small>
:Agreed. This RfC is written such that it's hard to tell what the issue is. So, an article almost got deleted for lack of notability and then one editor added more content to it? If the content is well sourced, encyclopedic, and neutrally phrased, then bravo to that one editor. What's the problem? That the information added might not be important enough? [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 01:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
::{{re|Darkfrog24}} Yes, the amount of [[WP:UNDUE]] material that has been added is enormous. The problem is the editor expanding the article is operating under the theory that anything in the fr.wiki version must also belong in the en.wiki version, without regard to our guidelines on these issues. I have no idea what the fr.wiki guidelines are for such things, but I suppose there are at least two possibilities: (1) they are much more liberal than ours or (2) they are similar to ours but haven't been enforced on the Branco article. Either way, it's immaterial to the issues here.{{pb}} A recent example, although not as bad as some, is the addition of the "Media activities" section, which is more an advertisement than anything of Branco's writings, including articles and a book. It's circular in that it cites to the articles themselves, not others' comments on his writing or articles.{{pb}} I keep trying to let this go because, as an administrator, I don't like getting embroiled in content disputes, but for some reason it sticks in my craw. All that said, I'm not sure the only choices should be leave all the added material in or take all the added material out, but a more nuanced approach would be much harder and probably not suitable for an RfC.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 15:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] Now you are making suppositions on a "theory" driving me ? Sorry but I am very surprised of how this discussion is going. It's the only page where I feel like adding (translated and checked) content is a bad thing ! It's also the only page where someone (you) took out the Expand French Template (on a "start-class" article) and told me that I was "slapping" a template and "should better expand it myself", that was litteraly our first interaction ! What's going on ?
:::Now on the substance, could you explain which, and on what basis, the content is undue ? Also, could you say if are you able to read French (thus to check the sources) before saying this ? (it is not written on your user page)
:::For media activities, you're ''partly'' wrong : the part about the book is sourced by journalistic reviews. For the rest, I checked and there is indeed a long-lasting activity in several national journals, some of which are indicated in his biographies (''Le Monde Diplomatique'' activity cited here for example : [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/russie/piotr-pavlenski/des-gilets-jaunes-a-piotr-pavlenski-en-passant-par-l-intelligentsia-parisienne-la-galaxie-eclectique-de-juan-branco_3835667.html]).
:::But anyway, it seems that sourcing a media acitivity by itself is acceptable from what I read here : [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:ABOUTSELF&redirect=no WP:ABOUTSELF]. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
::::Clearly, the "more nuanced approach" hoped by Bbb23 is not possible, in view of Imagritte's behavior. This was already clear, after I did some tentatives which were immediately reverted by Imagritte; for example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154437698 here] is a very partial revert of his additions, immediately reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154441000 here]. This, and the above discussions, strongly suggests that every change of Imagritte's edits would need endless discussions and edit wars. It is because I am not willing for this that I opened this RfC. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 09:18, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] Accusatory inversion. Your first move was to revert all my contributions.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153310460] Then, you kept refering to [[WP:notability]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153310228][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154437698][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154447584] even though I showed you that it does ''not'' apply for content.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153319695] Then again, you asked to revert all my contributions in this RFC.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154447584] And now, as it seems that it's not going your way,[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154457052][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154519444] you are trying to go [[ad personam]] on me (based on a lie : "I did ''some'' tentatives" --> actually only ''one'')[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154437698] just like @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] kept doing [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1152514189][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154612138] even though I warned him one time already.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1152526123] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 14:49, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Imagritte}}, did you read and check the French sources yourself or just translate the content? To the best of my knowledge, there's no rule absolutely requiring you to do so when translating from another Wikipedia, but did you happen to go above and beyond requirements on this one? {{ping|Bbb23}} and {{ping|D.Lazard}} Did you check the content against the French Wikipedia sources that Imagritte brought over and find them wanting in some way or did you revert based solely on your assessment that the content was inappropriate no matter how it was sourced? Again, there's no rule against you doing that, but did you happen to go above and beyond requirements on this one? (There's also no rule saying that sources for the English Wikipedia have to be in English, but no one's accused them of being inappropriate for not being in English.) [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 20:06, 14 May 2023 (UTC)


I think this current version is a pretty bad example of what you get when you represent every single possible factoid on a living person. {{U|Imagritte}}, a few pointers. Your rhetorical victory in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153319695 this edit] isn't as big as you like; if [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] replaces "notability" with "noteworthiness" that point is gone. There's a lot of edits and a lot of stuff here and in the history (plagued with sockpuppetry), and I have no intention of reading and commenting on all of it, but this edit summary of yours, [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154441000 "Both informations are in the journalistic biographies of the subject (and on French Wikipedia page) and seem relevant to the journalists to assess his pathway (6th arrondissement is one of the richest in Paris)] is worth addressing. First of all, that something is in the French wiki means nothing for us; esp. for current topics and BLPs the English wiki is superior in terms of sourcing--and I can say that with some confidence, having translated from the French wiki. Second, "relevant to the journalists"--we're not writing for the journalists, but I think I see where you are going (though you should make those points more clear): you are basically saying "they wouldn't have written that up if they didn't think it was important", and so the "pathway" via the 6th is relevant. That is a clear example of [[WP:SYNTH]], which is closely related to [[WP:OR]]--you are putting things together that make perfect sense to you, connecting things as one does in academic writing for instance, but the combination of those things and the conclusions drawn from that are yours. That's not a thing we can do here.{{pb}}To answer the first question: no, this article does not need expansion etc.: what it needs is solid editing and organization into paragraphs, not a a list of factoids--I see you did the same thing with [[Draft:Vin's]], and I am going to decline that submission for the same reason. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 20:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] Yes, I confirm that I checked every accessible source myself (and double-checked those questionned by others), and sometimes I had to erase unsourced infos and/or reformulate when a couple were detourned.
:And therefore @[[User:Drmies|Drmies]], I am surprised when you call these informations as "factoids", because again, they mostly (Education, Career) come from journalistic biographies of the subjet [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html <nowiki>[2]</nowiki>][https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/juan-branco-le-radical-chic-qui-veut-la-peau-de-la-macronie_2061348.html <nowiki>[3]</nowiki>][https://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/juan-branco-itineraire-d-un-enfant-gate-devenu-activiste-sans-scrupule-20200218 <nowiki>[4]</nowiki>], or were widely covered by French (or sometimes international) press, thus showing the "notworthiness", which refers to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:DUE&redirect=no WP:DUE] here if I correctly understand.
:About info "lives in 6th arrondissement", please note that it is ''not'' on the page anymore since 12th may. I let it go as it indeed seems a bit private even though mentionned here : [https://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/au-nouvel-an-de-juan-branco-le-debut-des-ennuis-pour-les-protagonistes-de-laffaire-griveaux-3949802 "New Year's Eve in this huge flat in the very chic 6th arrondissement of Paris"]. However, I will keep advocating for bringing back 2nd info about him beeing a "[https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/affaire-griveaux-ce-qu-il-faut-savoir-sur-juan-branco-20200217 lawyer living with minimum income]" because that's the title of a whole paragraph of a biography.
:To conclude, I only refered to French article (in brackets) because it is better rated (B-class) than this one ("start-class"). Thus meaning the latter was lacking important informations, which I tried to bring after @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] said "better expand it yourself". Please ultimately note that the expansion process is not complete yet : some infos might be doubled, introduction is not coherent yet, infobox neither, and I was indeed planning to organize the Education section into paragraphs for readability.
:PS : my draft is a translation of the French article [[:fr:Vin's]] based on reliable sources. The source you called "tabloid" is actually a [[:fr:Booska-P|French specialised hip-hop media]]. As for the formulation/structure of the article, I will rework on it. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 23:08, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
::Okay, and we have no objections about the quality of the sources cited, correct? Then this is about the editorial issue of whether the content belongs in the article, whehter it earns the space it takes up on the page and the energy it takes from the reader's patience. We're not talking about bright-line verifiability issues about which all reasonable people must agree but rather the subjective editorial decision about which information is important enough to be in the article, about which reasonable people may disagree. The last time I was in a dispute like this one, there was only one bit of data in dispute. Can we list the individual points, for those of us Wikieditors who aren't familiar with the subject? I think we could restructure the RfC around that is what I'm getting at. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 23:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
:::Agreed @[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]]. I already proposed to the 2 other editors to directly put templates on the article, where they find content undue.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153330348] But we can also do it on the talk page if that's simpler. Will the policy guiding our choice only be [[WP:DUE]] ? Or are there other that we need to get familiar with ? I would like to add [[WP:COISOURCE]] because from what I read in Belgian Press, [https://www.lalibre.be/international/2019/04/19/complotiste-fasciste-qui-est-juan-branco-conseiller-juridique-de-wikileaks-qui-sest-mis-a-dos-la-presse-francaise-FABMJHM4QZDPLL2P5EPYGLJBUQ/ subject seems to be in conflict with many French mass media after his book Crepuscule criticized them], and also, it seems that [https://www.lalibre.be/culture/livres-bd/2019/04/15/que-vaut-crepuscule-le-brulot-de-juan-branco-qui-crispe-la-presse-francaise-JUEGB3WAXRG47F5LMFTXETHR5A/ his book Crepuscule was ""censored"" by French press even though it was a commercial success] [https://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2019/04/03/crepuscule-de-juan-branco-est-il-en-tete-des-ventes-de-livres-sans-avoir-ete-mediatise_1718700/].
:::Thus, we might want to be carefull and use more international sources, or non-conflicting French sources, while judging information's weight. Also, this german national newspaper calls the subject an [https://www.derstandard.de/consent/tcf/story/2000104349831/juan-branco-der-anwalt-fuer-assange-fuer-die-gelbwesten-und "investigations journalist for Le Monde Diplomatique"] which we might want to add to the "media activities" section. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 00:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
* It's difficult to give a specific recommendation on this RfC. The current version of the article has a lot of problems. There's too much trivial information that's not required for a biography. Also, the controversy section needs to be reworked so it doesn't violate [[WP:CRITS]]. I guess I'd recommend rolling back to the status quo and only adding items that are reported by multiple sources and that would pass the [[WP:10YT|ten year test]]. - [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
*:Hello @[[User:Nemov|Nemov]], thanks for your comment. Could you specify which informations you find trivial ? Please note that the translation from French article is not finished (yet) : Political activity and Controversy sections are still missing infos, and introduction is not coherent yet. As for the controversy section, content hasn't changed, I just broke it into several paragraphs as @[[User:Drmies|Drmies]] asked for, so rolling back would not solve this issue. How would you see this section reworked ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:34, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
*:Actually, I think my contributions even go in your way @[[User:Nemov|Nemov]] : I moved 2 paragraphs from the old "controversial claims" section (now called "Controversy") to the Education and Career section (skyblog and l'Express) [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:48, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
*::I updated the controversy section titles to comply with [[WP:CRITS]], but feel free to change them to something else if find a better phrasing. Biographies should avoid controversy section titles. I don't have a comment on the other stuff since you mention the article in progress. I don't really see the point of this RfC since there's so much in motion. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 18:48, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

'''Oppose''': once notability has already been established; independent reliable sources are allowed to be drawn upon to elaborate upon a subject. The content within those sources do not themselves need to be notable [[User:Jack4576|Jack4576]] ([[User talk:Jack4576|talk]]) 03:54, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes. See my comment in the first paragraphs.
2 editors :
- Paulk12 who has never edited another page than this one
- Imagritte : whose activity is 80% or more about Branco and his books.
Both have been gradually changing the content to embellish this "wikipedia fantasy CV" : e.g. the numerous scandals, now under the so nice section title of "other activity".
Last approximately neutral version is the one from D. Lazard, early Feb. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 10:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

:Hello back @[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]], @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]], @[[User:Jack4576|Jack4576]], @[[User:Drmies|Drmies]] and @[[User:Nemov|Nemov]],
:It seems that @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] along with 2 [[Special:Contributions/Ebtpmus|single-purpose]] and [[Special:Contributions/Delfield|very occasional but coordinated]] contributors - @[[User:Ebptmus|Ebptmus]] (who also showed [[Talk:Juan Branco#New mass edits from sock puppet account in May - June 2023|agressivity]]) and @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] - are trying to force against this [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment|RFC]]'s discussion the <u>[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&action=history supression of 75% of this article's sourced content]</u> (and in majority translated from [[Juan Branco|B-class French article]]), while also adding an [[Juan Branco#Personal legal cases|enourmeous chunck]] of [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|WP:Undue]] primary-sourced material. I have tried to make [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165174431 concessions] but they [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&action=history don't seem] to want any, nor discussion. I have worked dozens of hours to improve and expand this article but currently it's a disaster and a huge stepback (I let you check), please help, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 14:30, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
::I have rolled back to the status quo. The additions violated [[WP:CRITS]]. It would be wise to avoid wide sweeping changes since they're contentious in nature. That will make this easier to make the changes digestible. Remember things must be [[WP:RS|reliable sourced]] and be included with due weight. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:46, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== 6th arrondissement and minimum income ==

Hello @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]], you said that context on 6th arrondissement was [[WP:OR]] but it comes directly from the introduction of [[6th arrondissement of Paris|6th arrondissement]]. Also, if the sentence about minimum income was poorly formulated, why didn't you just reformulate it, or at least indicate it with a template, instead of erasing it ? Feel free to indicate any spot that need reformulation.

I propose to reformulate like this : "In 2018 and 2019, he defended yellow vest protesters pro bono, and therefore lived only with the French guaranteed minimum income (RSA).[https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/affaire-griveaux-ce-qu-il-faut-savoir-sur-juan-branco-20200217 <nowiki>[6]</nowiki>][https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/juan-branco-le-radical-chic-qui-veut-la-peau-de-la-macronie_2061348.html]" [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 16:46, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


== New mass edits from sock puppet account in May - June 2023 ==
Another mass amount of edit from Imagritte (30+ edit in the span of 3 weeks) on this article.
At least 75% of the activity of this user is about Branco or his books.
Every single edit, on any article, often under the guise of "coherence" or "typos" is about changing the articles to water down the scandals (now under the so nice section title of "other activity") or portray him or his books in a more favorable light.
This article is now so full of BS and facts are so cherry picked and distorted, it is almost a total fantasy.
All changes form Imagritte should be reverted, or even this article deleted for good. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ebtpmus|contribs]]) 20:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Sorry forgot that, thanks [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 20:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
::Agreed, done! [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 22:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
:::[[Special:Contributions/Ebtpmus|Accusatory]] [[Special:Contributions/Delfield|inversion]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1165085735#Personal_legal_cases ?] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 23:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Actually looking at it more in detail, the situation is exactly the same with all edits from user Paulk12 (who has never edited any other article than this one) and every single edit of whom goes in the direction of embellishing this "wikipedia fantasy CV".
e.g. removal of the comment that Branco attended Ecole Normale Sup as a free auditor (which implies he graduated from that school) when he doesn't even qualify to take the entrance exam.
This is utter nonsense ...
[[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]]
*If you believe there's a sockpuppet you can report it at [[WP:SPI]]. Other behavioral issues can be submitted at [[WP:ANI]]. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

== RFC : Which status quo to build on? ==
{{archive top
|result = Given the number of changes to this article, this RfC going on is counter productive. The article was restored to '''Option 1'''. There was very little support for the mass changes in '''Option 2'''. Editors were urged to make changes incrementally and find consensus on any contentious inclusions. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:44, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
|status = closed}}

It seems the last RfC was framed in a way that was not clear enough, as it was noted by an admin. Therefore, I try again.

There are two versions of the articles, and there is a dispute on which one is the status quo that should be the start of a discussion. What version should be the one to build on and to discuss each change from :

'''Option 1''' : the older one https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1165176845

OR

'''Option 2''' : the new one by Imagritte : https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1165219691


--[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 21:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

===Discussion and votes===

'''Option 1''' : - the new text is so long that it becomes impossible to discuss each change, how it is all framed as an advertisement for Branco and to water down critic
*There is a history of Branco attacking this article through multiple accounts, you can see the talks about how this account follows the same trend of trying to make the article a long hagiography, claiming that anything with a source is relevant etc. WP is not a CV&nbsp;for PR.
*Btw, Imagritte accuses me of being a single-purpose editor, and to be "coordinated" Ebptmus, I don't see how on earth, we even reverted each other several time, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1125322024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Juan_Branco#Edit-war The user "brancojuan" used the same kind of accusations regarding SPA and sources above. In terms of credibility, D. Lazard has 30.000 edits were Imagritte has a bit more than 500, mainly on this one in terms of length of text added.
*It is not because these techniques were successful in the French version that it should be in this one.

It would be too long a discussion to address each point, the question is to see what is the unbiased version to start and argue each change from. An example, this has been totally deleted in version 2: "Branco has previously claimed that he worked as a "special assistant" to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. Asked for a clarification by the French journal GQ France, the Court responded that Branco ""claims to have been the assistant of the Prosecutor (..) while in reality he was an intern (...) and then worked at the OTP Public Information Unit".[31]"

@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]] In the option 1, there is no section about controversies but about controversial ''claims'', since he is accused by many people to lie on his CVs and to manipulate.

@[[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]], [[User:EdgarAllanFrost|EdgarAllanFrost]]: you have been following the previous similar attempts. Perhaps you could give your pov?

Imo, the article should go back to option 1, be protected, and each change approved like before in such a situation.

--[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 21:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
*{{sbb}} The purpose of an RfC is usually to get uninvolved opinions. "Dear person with no knowledge of this subject, here are two totally different entire articles; which one is better?" is not usually a good way to do so. It would be useful for Imagritte and Delfield to give some specific examples of why one is an improvement over the other. &mdash; <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 01:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
*:Thanks! I gave an example. This paragraph has been deleted: "Branco has previously claimed that he worked as a "special assistant" to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. Asked for a clarification by the French journal GQ France, the Court responded that Branco ""claims to have been the assistant of the Prosecutor (..) while in reality he was an intern (...) and then worked at the OTP Public Information Unit".[31]" Like many other information not favorable to the author. This article has a history of being targeted by the subject of the article. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 23:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
*::It has not been deleted, I let "He has worked at the International Criminal Court for a year" without further precision since that info is in many sources, but the ICC claim is only in one [[Wikipedia:Primary source|primary source]]: it would need [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]] [[Wikipedia:Secondary sources|secondary sources]] to attest notworthyness and stay, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 21:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

*'''Option 2 and procedural close''' @[[User:Rhododendrites|Rhododendrites]] Actually, there was already an [[Talk:Juan Branco#Discussion|RFC two months ago]] on the exact same topic which <u>concluded</u> that:
:1) The content added (which was mostly [[Wikipedia:Translation|WP:translated]] from the [[:fr:Juan_Branco|French B-class article]]) is [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliably sourced]].
:2) If there is an editorial dispute about some parts being [[Wikipedia:UNDUE|WP:undue]], they should be listed, or stated directly on the article (which the requester never did), [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165085735 ''not'' just suppress 75% of the content along with 150 reliable sources].
:As for the rest, this RFC violates [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|WP:FAITH]], [[WP:Canvassing]], and content, [[WP:COISOURCE]], [[WP:UNDUE]] and [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|WP:UNRELIABLE]] :
:- [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|WP:FAITH]] because of @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]]'s "''Imagritte is not editing in good faith''", and also by @[[User:Ebptmus|Ebptmus]] just [[Talk:Juan Branco#New mass edits from sock puppet account in May - June 2023|above]] (I let you check their contribution timing and topics yourself.. [[Special:Contributions/Delfield|here]] and [[Special:Contributions/Ebtpmus|there]], please also look at the schools attended by our article's subject..)
:- [[WP:Canvassing]] because @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] pinged 2 contributors he selected instead of pinging everyone who participated in the last RFC : [[User:D.Lazard|@D.Lazard]] @[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]], @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]], @[[User:Jack4576|Jack4576]], @[[User:Drmies|Drmies]] and @[[User:Nemov|Nemov]].
:- [[WP:COISOURCE]] because the "old" version is [https://www.lalibre.be/international/2019/04/19/complotiste-fasciste-qui-est-juan-branco-conseiller-juridique-de-wikileaks-qui-sest-mis-a-dos-la-presse-francaise-FABMJHM4QZDPLL2P5EPYGLJBUQ/ based mostly on French sources conflicting with the subject since his book Crepuscule criticised them, as explained in Belgian Press]
:- [[WP:UNDUE]] and [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|WP:UNRELIABLE]] because of this [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1165176845#Personal_legal_cases enormous chunk] based only on one primary source added by @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]]. GQ source is also primary, did other [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]] [[Wikipedia:Secondary source|secondary]] sources relate this info ?
:More details and arguments in [[Talk:Juan Branco#Discussion|previous RFC]]. Best, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 12:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::This is getting silly. Close this RfC and maintain the status quo. Open discussion on each piece under contention. If there's a discussion that reaches an impasses then open a RfC on that small piece. The reason the last RfC didn't go anywhere is because it's not clear what it's about. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:46, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
'''Option 1:'''
per nom and per my motivations in the first RfC. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 14:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::Hello @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]], do you mean your argument, which was refuted by 3 different contributors [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154767605][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1156086900][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154833935], after which you stopped responding, not even to @[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]]'s questions [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154810085] and proposal for a consensus [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154833935] ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 15:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::This article has been nominated twice for deletion. It was deleted in 2016, and created again soon after. In 2020, it was recognized that Branco's notability is borderline with respect to Wikipedia criteria. In fact, there are only two noteworthy events in his career, a pamplet against the French President, and his implication in [[Juan Branco#Benjamin Griveaux affair|Benjamin Griveaux affair]]. As a politician activist, he was never elected; he never got any noteworthy political position. As a writer, he never won any case, except the one in which his father was implied. As a writer no other book is notable, except the above pamphlet. The other issue of the article is that it was written as a hagiographie. During the deletion discussion, a user rewrote the article in a convenient Wikipedia style, and this wasthe main reason for "keep" instead of "delete". A further reason of my vote is that Imagitte's edits break a consensus of Wikipians, without any preceding discussion.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/D.Lazard|contribs]]) 15:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)</small>
:::A refuted argument does not mean a wrong argument. If I did not respond, it is because the first RfC was engaged in such a way that it could result only in keeping Imagritte's version. So, answering could be only a waste of time. In particular, I did not read the French version, since Wikipedia is not a reliable source, per [[WP:USERGENERATED]]. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 15:55, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::::And again the same argument ignoring that [[Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists|Wikipedia:Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles]]... + There are dozens of counter-arguments in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1165219691 "option 2" status quo version], many noteworthy cases and books published since 2020. I think I don't need to say more. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 16:35, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 2''' but also '''procedural close''' as poor RfC - I picked option 1 by mistake because this RfC and discussion is a mess. It should be closed to spare the community. I advised that there be separate discussions about small changes. I don't know why a RfC was created. Just go to the status quo and discuss each change. The version I rolled back to should be the starting point. It's not complicated. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 16:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
*:But precisely, the point of the majority of editors is that the status quo is the initial version, and that from there each change should be discussed. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 23:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
*::As silly as arguing there's a majority when only 5 people have commented is... I'm going to remove the controversy section again, that violates [[WP:CRITS]]. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 23:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::The status quo is plainly version 1, from around [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&oldid=1152335749 here]. After that, Imagritte started aggressively rewriting the article and, despite being reverted repeatedly, revert-warred the new version in over every objection: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153320176][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165089662] despite no consensus supporting it in previous RFCs. The last ''stable'' version is what we go to in a dispute, which was option 1; a version which encountered objections as soon as it was added cannot be stable without a clear consensus behind it, which is not present here. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 09:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] There was consensus, or at least no more opposition, after the discussion I started on the topic : [[Talk:Juan Branco#Expand French]]. If contributors stop answering, let you edit slowly for 2 months, don't make any improvements or mark any spot they find problematic (which I suggested they do), isn't that a [[WP:consensus]] ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 22:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::+ [[WP:consensus]] doesn't prevail on other [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|WP:Pillars]] : if 2 contributors agree to prevent any improvement to an outdated article they don't even contribute to, it goes against [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|1st pillar]] and [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|3rd pillar]], [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 22:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' is the status quo and the last stable version (which means that if this RFC reaches no consensus or gets a procedural close, we should go back to that one), and, either way, should be used as a basis. Agreed that option 2 has clear [[WP:PROMOTIONAL]] issues - the very second paragraph sets off alarm bells with {{tq|As a student, he stood out by...}}, and the entire lead seems filled with rambling minutiae that obscures what he's actually notable for, which is reflected in the body. More generally, the proposed new version (option 2) was dropped in by a single editor with minimal discussion, immediately disputed, and revert-warred in; no consensus for it was ever actually demonstrated - certainly not in the minimal discussion above, which presents nowhere near the consensus necessary to drastically rewrite an entire article like this. What little discussion there has been seems to be largely procedural wrangling to try and assert that their edits somehow don't require consensus or, worse, that a consensus is needed to revert them, which is absurd. It was a [[WP:BOLD]] edit, which was reverted and must now be discussed. Proponents of those changes need to break them down and discuss them individually rather than trying to present a complete rewrite of the entire article as accomplished by [[WP:FAIT]]. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 09:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*:Hello @[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]], thanks for your comment. You may have been brained because @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] (and now @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]]) forced their changes (again) a couple hours before your comment. In any case, please note that : the lead had been summarised in the meantime; [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165374801] that "stood out by his fight against Hadopi" is because of these sources [https://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2012/05/22/hadopi-fait-une-premiere-victime-a-gauche_1705472_823448.html][https://www.20minutes.fr/culture/730414-20110525-juan-branco-hadopi-cree-ligne-fracture-tres-forte-empeche-tout-dialogue][https://www.arretsurimages.net/articles/lescure-in-juan-branco-out-hadopi-loin-detre-abrogee][https://www.lesinrocks.com/actu/hadopi-96515-24-05-2012/] (first sources on our subject, translated from French wp article "s'est fait remarqué", but maybe there's a better translation we can find) ; also that the "new" content was ''not'' "dropped in", [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1152867480 but] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1153634709 gradually] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154607236 translated] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1155352783 and] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1156247126 added] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1156807772 over] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1161284754 2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1161857566 months] ; and that other contributors never challenged the sources [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154833935] ; while the contributors requesting these RFCs never tried to find any consensus, improve the added content, or even list the elements that they found "undue" as requested in the conclusion of the previous RFC. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154833935] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165085735 Thus, this is the WP:BOLD 75% content suppression + primary source based addition edit] we're discussing. Thanks, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*:{{to|Aquillion}} thanks for your remark that the RfC could be reformulated as "should the version of the article preceding the edit war (started with the first Imagritte's edit) be restored?". Formulated this way, the answer "yes" is a direct consequence of WP rules against edit wars, which are described in [[WP:Edit warring]] and [[WP:BRD]]. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 13:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*::@[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] [[WP:Edit warring]] says editors should seek consensus. Did you ever seek [[WP:consensus]] on this article in the past 2 months ? Or are you just now trying to suppress 75% of sourced content that I spent dozens of hours to gradually [[Wikipedia:Translation|WP:translate]], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154810085 while cherry-picking the comments you repond to ?] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 15:20, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*:::Did you yourself? [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 16:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*::::Lol, yeah, several times. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1152341939][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1152514189][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154464216][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1153310899][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1153323436][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1154612138][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1154834381][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1155078167] as well as other contributors [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1154809948][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1154831687][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1154833935][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1165238947][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1165324209] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=next&oldid=1165351041]. And you ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*:::::Option 1 !
*:::::The problem of "reliable information" that it would suppress is a moot point.
*:::::It is a alibi to keep a multitude of unsubstantiated and twisted facts intertwined with factual information (but more often than not of relative insignificance)
*:::::By mixing the two, the SPA are turning this into a editing gordian-knot and trying to force misinformation into the article.
*:::::As stated previously, last approximately neutral version dates is the one from D. Lazard, early Feb.
*:::::Trying to untangle anything after that will be massively time consuming and it's excatly what the SPA are counting on to get their way. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 13:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
*::::::An [[Special:Contributions/Ebtpmus|SPA]] calling others SPA... This is just silly. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:40, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::And who would I be a sock-puppet account of ? [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 07:27, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

*'''Examples of reliable content that option 1 would suppress :''' 150 reliable sources including a dozen of journalistic biographies of the subject containing, in order, masters at [[Paris University]], [[PhD]] information, early career as researcher at [[Yale]], [[Max Planck]] and [[La Sapienza]], information about [[Assange]] case, [[Jean-Luc Mélenchon]] case, [[MINUSCA]] mission, 5 [[yellow vest movement|yellow vests protesterst]] cases including 2 won and 2 still on-going, 2 [[International Criminal Court]] submissions, some more information on Marvel Fitness and [[Mila affair]] cases, [[France convoy protest]] référé-liberté, [[UEFA Financial Fair Play Regulations]] ([[FC Barcelona]], [[La Liga]], [[Nasser Al-Khelaifi]]), [[2016 Nice terrorist attack]] case, Senegalese opposition leader [[Ousmane Sonko]] case, fight against [[Hadopi law]], [[Anti-austerity movement in Spain|Indignados movement]] and [[Partido X]] campaign, more information on political activity with [[The Greens (France)]], [[Socialist Party]], [[La France Insoumise]], and Yellow Vest Movement, information on 6 books, each of which has been reviewed multiple times in French national press (Réponses à Hadopi, Assange l'anti-souverain, the Republic does not belong to you, Abattre l'ennemi, Coup d'état, and Hanouna which was "a best-seller in online bookstores", more information on [[Crépuscule (book)]], journalistic activity in 5 French national medias ([[Libération]], [[L'Humanité]], [[Le Monde Diplomatique]]..); 2 war investigations, information on conflict with [[L'Express]], more information on self-promotion on [[Wikipedia]], Griveaux affair results (he was cleared of charges), 2 revelations during [[Covid-19 pandemic]] ([[Pfizer]] contract and French [[AP-HP]] hospital) etc.
:All the above content (~75% of the article) is [[WP:RS|reliably sourced]], no one challenged it, why would you want to suppress it ? Let's keep option 2 as the status quo to work on. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a detailed CV, or a cover letter for a job application, with links to the proof of each former training or job. Imo, but other more experienced wikipedians might tell me otherwise, most of these information are not relevant for an encyclopedia. At the very least, each of them should be discussed since there is a major neutrality issue with your version as a whole, and therefore there should be some scrutiny on each change. --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 17:37, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] It is ''not'' up to contributors to judge what is [[WP:encyclopedic]], but up to [[WP:Independent sources]], respecting [[Wikipedia:DUE]], and all these infos come from journalistic biographies of the subject = they are due [https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000104349831/juan-branco-der-anwalt-fuer-assange-fuer-die-gelbwesten-und][https://www.lalibre.be/international/2019/04/19/complotiste-fasciste-qui-est-juan-branco-conseiller-juridique-de-wikileaks-qui-sest-mis-a-dos-la-presse-francaise-FABMJHM4QZDPLL2P5EPYGLJBUQ/][https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html] [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/russie/piotr-pavlenski/des-gilets-jaunes-a-piotr-pavlenski-en-passant-par-l-intelligentsia-parisienne-la-galaxie-eclectique-de-juan-branco_3835667.html][https://www.decitre.fr/ebooks/signe-branco-9791030703047_9791030703047_1.html][https://la-bas.org/la-bas-magazine/entretiens/Juan-Branco-desosse-Macron][https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/juan-branco-le-radical-chic-qui-veut-la-peau-de-la-macronie_2061348.html][https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/affaire-griveaux-ce-qu-il-faut-savoir-sur-juan-branco-20200217][https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x40adfd][https://www.jeuneafrique.com/1429276/politique/pourquoi-ousmane-sonko-a-choisi-lavocat-francais-juan-branco/][https://www.liberation.fr/idees-et-debats/juan-branco-linsurrection-qui-tarde-a-venir-20230412_ZWRJ6JAS3VH3POYPU36DILAXWA/]. Thanks, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:54, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::I think this RfC should be closed from this point. Please make smaller changes and submit them for discussion of there's objection. You've made too many changes at one time that include too much trivial information. @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] and @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]], instead of blanking everything Imagritte has added work with the editor to pair down the additions. There is good stuff that has been added. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 19:37, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]], I understand, but that was already our conclusion with @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] and @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] 2 months ago in [[Talk:Juan Branco#Recent expansion of the article]] and that's what I have been doing since then: slowly adding the content so that they can challenge/improve the parts they want. The process ended on 25 june with this edit. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1161857566] @[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] really improved the content with cleanup but @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] did nothing. And now, he just wakes up, blanks everything along with a single purpose very occasional contributor @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]], and I have to do it all over again? This is silly. It's the only page where I feel like adding translated double-cheked content is a bad thing ! Usually, people say "thank you" and try to improve it, as @[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] pointed out... [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154519444], not blank everything without even listing the problems and throw personnal attacks. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1154464216][https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165237974] Now the article is back to a start-class outdated disaster. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 20:26, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::I do not intend to participate in this discussion, but I ''never'' agreed with the expansion of this article based on the fr.wiki article, but I mostly gave up on trying to rein in Imagritte. I took this page off my watchlist, and am only here because Imagritte keeps pinging me. Please don't ping me anymore. Thanks.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 20:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::The past two RfCs here have been long confusing messes of discussion that led to unclear outcomes. I have laid out a path forward. Either follow it or leave this article alone. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 20:40, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]] It was not RFC, it was even before. I feel like I worked dozens of hours for nothing, and neither @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] nor @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] listed the parts they find problematic. Will they again stop responding and revert everything in 2 months ? Just silly. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 20:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::This isn't complicated. Make small changes. If there's an objection, then discuss it. I don't want to argue about the past. Your widespread changes have failed to find consensus. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 21:07, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]] How to reach a consensus with someone saying [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165237974 "You're not editing in good faith"] ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 21:11, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::When multiple editors are asking you to do something and you do not listen, maybe it's time to look at your actions. That's my last word. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 21:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]] Do what ? You said the lead needed to be summarized: I did it. They asked me to add content slower: did it. Double-check sources: did it. I always listened, did they ? Or is @[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] just preventing any improvement to an article he doesn't even contribute to [[xtools:articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Juan_Branco|(0.2%)]] while letting single-purpose @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] add controversies freely ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 21:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::[[User:Imagritte|@Imagritte]] please don't tag me again. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 21:50, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::On my end, I am removing that comment, sorry for this and thanks for pointing out! --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 21:24, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Thanks @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]], [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 21:50, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::Option 1 !
::::::::::::The problem of "reliable information" that it would suppress is a moot point.
::::::::::::It is a alibi to keep a multitude of unsubstantiated and twisted facts intertwined with factual information (but more often than not of relative insignificance)
::::::::::::By mixing the two, the SPA are turning this into a editing gordian-knot and trying to force misinformation into the article.
::::::::::::As stated previously, last approximately neutral version dates is the one from D. Lazard, early Feb.
::::::::::::Trying to untangle anything after that will be massively time consuming and it's excatly what the SPA are counting on to get their way. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 13:40, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::An [[Wikipedia:SPA|SPA]] calling others "SPA", just silly. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 10:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Option 1''' per Aquillion, this {{TQ|is the status quo and the last stable version (which means that if this RFC reaches no consensus or gets a procedural close, we should go back to that one), and, either way, should be used as a basis}}. It has issues with Franglai-ish phrasing and seeming irrelevancies ''(Deneuve lived in his neighbourhood?)''. Option 2 is laughably promotional - hardly a sentence can be found which the subject's role hasn't been massively inflated (eg: ''He participated in diplomatic negotiations to obtain the right of asylum for Assange, which the [[Élysée Palace|Élysée]] ultimately refused)''. [https://www.liberation.fr/planete/2015/07/03/hollande-ne-veut-pas-accueillir-assange_1342691/ The attached source] makes clear there were no negotiations, Assange wrote an open letter to Hollande's govt requesting protection, not asylum, which was immediately denied. The only truth is that Branco is recorded as part of Assange's Fr legal team, presumably submitting the letter.
:: @Unsigned, there is another source for the same sentence [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUjGqixYKlU] + one in the previous phrase NYT which shows the duration was 10 days in 2015 [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/world/europe/wikileaks-us-spying-france.html] + a new one in 2019 about diplomatic negociations with other countries [https://www.rtbf.be/article/etats-unis-suede-grande-bretagne-les-destinations-possibles-de-julian-assange-10194349] and finaly one showing it was not "presumably": he did the asylum demand at the time. [https://www.liberation.fr/planete/2020/02/20/assange-veut-demander-l-asile-en-france_1779078/] We can change this and any sentence found too promotoinal, but please make an effort on sources.[[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:25, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
::And also several interviews of him requesting Asylum for Assange in France in '''2019''' (Assange was about to be arrested) as he was still "legal advisor of Assange and Wikileaks" during the whole period. [https://www.marianne.net/monde/juan-branco-france-julian-assange] [https://www.europe1.fr/international/pour-son-avocat-julian-assange-devrait-faire-lobjet-dune-recompense-de-la-part-de-la-france-3890252] [https://rmc.bfmtv.com/actualites/international/arrestation-de-julian-assange-la-france-doit-intervenir-pour-defendre-quelqu-un-qui-lui-a-rendu-de-grands-services-estime-juan-branco-l-un-de-ses-avocats_AV-201904120348.html] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:36, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

===Discussion===
{{reply to|Imagritte|D.Lazard}} I am going to ask both of you to stop disrupting this article. If you are both unable to edit here constructively or without finding consensus, further action may have to be taken. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 19:31, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] Which parts of the [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|sourced]] [[Wikipedia:Translation|translated]] content I added over the past two months do you find [[Wikipedia:UNDUE|undue]] or [[Wikipedia:Promotional|promotional]] ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 21:13, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::To me, everything except what I just added. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 23:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::The [[Juan_Branco#Self-promotion_on_Wikipedia|section]] about Branco's edits to Wikipedia is overkill. It seems trivial to me and could be deleated completely. At best it deserves a sentence in the entire article. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:50, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
::::I disagree: see {{slink||Threats}} above. Also, since the beginning of 2023 only, users Username1789, RoxxorOscar, Paulk12, Salmasalma2, have been indefinitely blocked for being sockpuppets or suspected sockpuppets. The only activity of these [[WP:SPA]] was to edit the article [[Juan Branco]] for promoting its subject. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 13:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] Threats and sockpuppets are a disgrace. But currently the only [[WP:SPAs]] here are [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] and [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] (which I just now noticed has the same first and last letter as your account name..), why don't you mention them ? How is it that you have been discussing this article for years but have [[xtools:articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Juan_Branco|never actually contributed to its content]] ? The fact that a subject did or tried to do self-promotion and has a history with you is ''no'' reason to go the excessive opposite and only add controversies... Also, we know that our subject has been a spied target of CIA [https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/211119/les-etats-unis-ont-espionne-julian-assange-et-ses-visiteurs-londres] and is opposed by many FR mass media [https://www.lalibre.be/international/2019/04/19/complotiste-fasciste-qui-est-juan-branco-conseiller-juridique-de-wikileaks-qui-sest-mis-a-dos-la-presse-francaise-FABMJHM4QZDPLL2P5EPYGLJBUQ/] and several gouvernments.. hence the need to check independent sources. But sources seem worthless here compared to the [[WP:POV]] of our 3 contributors... [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:49, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] On what base or wikipedia policy did you judge the dueness of the content ? Did you check the sources ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:33, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Reply below in new section. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 07:11, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
*I think there's a consensus on option 1. I would recommend closing this RfC as editors are now editing from that point. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:07, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Summarize lead ==


== Is the whitewashing soon complete ? ==
The lead for this article is far too long for this person. It should be around 4 paragraphs tops. Please summarize. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 17:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


Sorry guys, but I can help being utterly puzzled at what happening here.
:Yes I was thinking about it, will do it soon, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
I keep seeing accusation being raised of uncoordinated and biased changes, double standards for sources etc and calls to alignment on the discussion page. Yet with literally dozens of daily changes and comments on the talk page, when I point out serious misrepresentations of the sources as to the Attal affair or CV embellishments, nothing of this gets answered or addressed and it stays there like it doesn't matter.
:Although I have to say for the rest of the article that with 200 sources (including a dozen of detailed journalistic biographies), [https://www.google.com/search?q=juan+branco&rlz=1C1GCEA_en__1011__1011&biw=1280&bih=681&sxsrf=AB5stBhBclKGM9NRKHwgp_X-SQ6IFrhM4Q%3A1689358015310&ei=v46xZKHCEuyJ9u8PsdaHsAU&ved=0ahUKEwjhnZqD5Y6AAxXshP0HHTHrAVYQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=juan+branco&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiC2p1YW4gYnJhbmNvMgcQIxiKBRgnMgcQIxiKBRgnMgcQIxiKBRgnMgcQLhiKBRhDMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIHEAAYigUYQzIHEC4YigUYQzIWEC4YigUYQxiXBRjcBBjeBBjfBNgBAUj-B1AAWLQHcAB4AZABAJgB0wGgAZEMqgEFMC45LjG4AQPIAQD4AQHCAggQLhiABBjUAsICChAuGIAEGBQYhwLiAwQYACBBiAYBugYGCAEQARgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp 47 millions Google results] and [https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_en__1011__1011&sxsrf=AB5stBjGLMutqoqLwpHGHamXnn5DMdkMYg:1689357969679&q=juan+branco&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNgbnt5I6AAxU7h_0HHW6fAFwQ0pQJegQIDBAB&cshid=1689358019139301&biw=1280&bih=681&dpr=1.5 8.200 news articles on the subject] , 100ko doesn't seem all that much for this article. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
And when something finally happens, it's that the "question of integrity" paragraph gets discarded altogether while we are graced with the super important information of the composition of Lamaline basically implying "it's only paracetamol after all".
::Just because something is sourced doesn't automatically justify inclusion. If it hasn't received significant coverage from multiple sources it probably doesn't belong in the article. It's always wise to remember the [[WP:20YT|twenty year test]]. I don't know much about this person and right now it's seems like a lot of clutter to get to the point. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 18:16, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes of course, and some sections and the lead could definitely use summarizing. I was just pointing out that the subject has been widely documented; for camparision, French article is about 85ko although lacking more recent infos. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::::I'm not really concerned with [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]] and this isn't a discussion about deletion so how much coverage this person has received isn't really relevant. The entire article needs to be summarized. There's a some trivial information that can be removed. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 18:23, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::Yes, will work on it, thanks :) [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::Done for the lead, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:38, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::::You asserted many times that the content that you added is a translation of French article. How the transalation of 85k can produce 100k? How can I assuming your good faith? [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 19:46, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] Please read what I wrote : "mostly". I started by translating the French article, and then I added some more recent content/cases/books (that were not yet on the French article). [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::A "simple google search" shows actually, 27 millions, not 47.
::And 6500 news article.
::Another good example of flexible relation to facts... [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 13:54, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] That's enough of [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|WP:AGF]] violations. And for you sake, I now have 52 millions and 11k news articles on my screen when I search "Juan Branco" on Google. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:21, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
::::+ 5 millions hits and + 3000 articles in a span of a few days. Sure.
::::Actually searching with quotes "Juan Branco" (to avoid false hits), I find respectively 3.7M and 5.7k.
::::And looking at the level of details : the French version ("translated here", "which justifies the length of the english article") even graces us with the info of which kindergarten he attended or which student film club he was part of at Science Po.
::::Is this really noteworthy information for wikipedia ? [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 07:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::Yes, it is the title of a whole paragraph of a journalistic biography [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html]. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 10:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


In the meantime, to date :
== Relevance of facts ==
<br>- lying on role at ICC : gone
<br>- lying on role as chief of staff of Filipetti ministry : gone
<br>- Abdeslam : one lengthy paragraph to explain that approaching him could have been borderline legal (though highly unethical as per the source : the bar itself recommended sanctions) under some circumstances that the source itself clearly explains were not met and as such the case falls out of this exception. But the (proven wrong by the source) argument from Branco is transcribed here verbatim. And complete silence on the harsh criticism from the bar that is 95% of the source article.
<br>- Attal outing : gone


Etc, etc. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 09:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Imo, most of the facts Imagritte put in the article are not noteworthy. No lawyer has all of his tiny case explained in length in Wikipedia, and here most are not even actual court cases but just one seldom intervention. There is no serious dispute about it since only one user wants to include them, and imo in a promotional way. For example, about the Pfizer contract or the APHP issue, I copy pasted his text but when we check the source, it is a gross exaggeration of a very tiny role or a very tiny issue. --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 07:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


:Feel free to restore anything that you think should go in.
:@[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] These cases have each been analysed in multiple secondary sources = they are [[Wikipedia:DUE|WP:due]]. You just have to get used to the fact that this lawyer is very notable (and that the sources decide what is notable or nothwothy, not us contributors). As for Pfizer, The Guardian source titles :[https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/10/pfizer-accused-of-holding-brazil-to-ransom-over-vaccine-contract-demands "Leaked supply document <u>reveals</u> clauses to protect US pharma company from legal action in the event of serious side-effects"] On what [[WP:POV]] did you change the formulation ? Same for the phrase "the patient is taken care of" you just added about AP-HP leak, while the source is actually saying in the lead [https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/2749939-20200328-coronavirus-ile-france-patient-antecedents-prive-lit-reanimation-manque-place "The AP-HP confirmed the authenticity of the document and acknowledged "pressure on intensive care beds", while reiterating the measures taken to alleviate these difficulties."] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 10:57, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:As for lamaline, I listed the ingredients "paracetamol, opium and caffeine" because the drug is not, I think, familiar to readers from some countries. In England at least it would look bad in a rape case if you had given someone a drug that in any way affects consciousness. [[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]] ([[User talk:Southdevonian|talk]]) 11:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
:See comment above the length of the French version, which is used to justify the *even longer* English version, includes information such as which kindergarten he attended or his membership of the movie club at Science Po.
:@[[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]], could you please quit throwing accusations around every time you don't like a change to this article? Given your edit history is only about this article, it stands to reason that you may not be the best arbitrator of neutrality about what's [[WP:DUE]] when it comes to this particular subject. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
:This is symptomatic of the avalanche of insignificant details plaguing all languages versions, and which is used to slip in favorable unsubstantiated facts. Brandolini's law applied to wikipedia ... [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 10:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]]: you are the one casting aspersions about editors and their motivations all the time. How about you answer my arguments on their merit ? For once. And not about my edit history or supposed motivations.
::@[[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] And see my response : It is the title of a whole paragraph of a journalistic biography. [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html <nowiki>[74]</nowiki>] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 11:12, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::Edits that have been exclusively on this talk page for quite some time now BTW. And as to the edits I made to the page itself, I don't believe that they were orientated in any way. But feel free to comment <u>specifically</u> on points or suggestions that I have made, instead of remaining comfortably vague. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 05:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
:Agree with @[[User:Delfield|Delfield]]. It's not important enough to justify inclusion. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:52, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Totally agree with you. But [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] took the side of this whitewashing that is totally similar to the previous one he was against: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1169342802 Perhaps he was afraid of the legal threats.
::Where do we take it from here ? Another series of mass edits from Imagritte / Branco : uncoordinated as far as I can tell. Section on scandals, self promotion on Wikipedia and instrumentalisation of Wikipedia disappeared altogether, replaced by description of every individual court case again. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 15:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::The structure of the page as it is now comes from me actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=1167727513&oldid=1167249173 I was just noticing that some things were disappearing and putting them back and trying to discuss them in talk page, and then Nemov, who acts an admin (reverting a lot but never ever discussing content), reverted me, and bizarrely D.Lazard took the same position, against his own reverts (he would put back the content on the CV etc. in the past.
:::(see difference from version Delfield earlier today and current) [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 15:18, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, there is a clear POV pushing of Nemov and Imagritte, and a trivial discussion between them regarding secondary issues. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 20:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::If D. Lazard agrees with that, there is nothing one can do. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 14:46, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::Indeed. I follow french news pretty closely, and honestly half of the names of those "important yellow vest cases" are totally unknown to me. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 20:22, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::Please do not comment my supposed motivations and my supposed opinions, and stop ridiculous accusations (nobody can act as an administrator if he has not the administrator rights; apparently, you have not understood the role of Wikipedia administrators). [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 16:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] Feel free to share any source, or contribute to the article's content. We're trying to improve through discussion, you two just come, blank/rollback everything and throw personal attacks. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 21:35, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::The pot calling the kettle black : you just made a 90% change (the one that I rolled back) from the option 1 that was agreed upon as a result of the RFC without ANY previous discussion nor alignment on the discussion page. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 21:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Option 1 was agreed as "status quo to build on", and that's what I tried to do. Did you ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 22:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


== Neo Trixma (now blocked as sockpuppet of Branco) changes ==
== RE: Legal advice and representations ==


OK, so now it seems that Neo Trixma is blocked on the ground of being a sock puppet of Branco.
This section is terrible. It needs to be summarized into one or two paragraphs. I feel like I keep having to repeat basic concepts of [[WP:DUE]]. Again, every time this person is mentioned in the news doesn't automatically justify inclusion in this article. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:39, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Which should come as no surprise since the account was apparently created on July 30th, shortly after Imagritte was blocked, and with an activity about 50% on Branco. And given too the nature of the contributions, which produced a considerable amount of whitewashing, as previously pointed out.
<br>So what is the next step ? Revert to a consensual version pre-sock puppet, or try to untangle the Gordian knot of recent changes made in large part by the sockpuppet ? [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 19:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)


:@[[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] Please refrain from further additions to this section until this is resolved. This needs to cover major events in this person's biography that will be remembered 20 years from now. This article doesn't serve as a laundry list for a resume. Thanks [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:48, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:Most of that editor's changes have been discussed. No need to do anything major at this time. If there's something you object to change it. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 20:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
::I beg to differ.
::Ok, just giving my argument : he is already mentionned as "lawyer of the yellow vests protestors" in several biographies' titles [https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000104349831/juan-branco-der-anwalt-fuer-assange-fuer-die-gelbwesten-und][https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html][https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/russie/piotr-pavlenski/des-gilets-jaunes-a-piotr-pavlenski-en-passant-par-l-intelligentsia-parisienne-la-galaxie-eclectique-de-juan-branco_3835667.html] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 13:54, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::A lot of the changes by the sock-puppet are not good faith edits (that's the whole point of sock-puppet).
::We can restructure and summarize the section, but keeping a little detail about yellow vests cases, some of which where widely covered in France (especially Christophe Dettinger, Valérie Minet, Damien Tarel), others less (but still 2-3 national press articles), seems fair to me, [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 13:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::Some (not all) were discussed, mainly with @[[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]], who tried I good faith to meet the sock-puppet halfway. Issue is: meeting half-way somebody pushing lies into the article is not conducive of quality.
:::In 20 years will anyone care? Will it be a notable part of this person's biography? This section is far too long. Summarize it down. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 17:18, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::Those edits build-up to the whitewashing I previously pointed out. At what stage you ignored the obvious and raised some accusations against me instead.
::::I honestly think so, [[yellow vests movement]] is a big moment in French history, constantly referred to in France, still not finished (according to its wiki), people are still revendicating from it etc.. But I will summarize in order to find consensus. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 17:30, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::The white-washing is nonetheless obvious: the edits gradually removed most content that could cast a negative light (entire sections disappeared) while on the few remaining contentious topics, most/all information on the substance of the cases held against Branco disappeared and was replaced by lengthy descriptions of the arguments/ claims made by Branco in his defense. Even some that are stated to be untrue by the mere source used as "proof" (eg. Abdeslam case: the newspaper states that Branco's arguments are factually untrue and disproves them, yet it is a thorough presentation of his arguments that made their way into the WP article without any mention of the newspaper's conclusion that it is an obvious misrepresentation of facts). [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 20:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::The first paragraph is fine. The line by line on each person could easily be deleted. The details about each case just aren't important to this biography. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 17:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::PS : I am happy to edit the page, though I'd value some input/feedback/opinion from users involved in the content (rather than the moderation) beforehand. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 20:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::I'm sorry but I find the section completely [[Wikipedia:UNDUE|WP:undue]] now, how are explanations of a lawyer's actions in cases not important to a laywer's biography ? If so, we would also have to delete details of the Griveaux and Sonko affairs, leaving the article with almost nothing. His anecdotal involvement in the Mila affair (never seen it in any biographies) currently has the same space as his involvement in the yellow vest cases. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 18:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Based on your statements I don't think you know what [[WP:DUE]] actually means. {{tq|If so, we would also have to delete details of the Griveaux and Sonko affairs...}} please do. Much of what you're adding is irrelevant to the central biography. You've seen how I've reduced the content. That should server a baseline for you to add and summarize. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 19:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::If you have a specific issue make the change, but mass changes are not welcome. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 20:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
:::In fairness, my first query about possible block evasion came back as suspicious rather than positive [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:NinjaRobotPirate&diff=next&oldid=1170491110]. So I assumed we were dealing with Team Branco or a dedicated Branco fan, rather than another sockpuppet. As for Neo Trixma and BlackSun - both names are taken from film/TV... [[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]] ([[User talk:Southdevonian|talk]]) 00:10, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::::[[WP:DUE]] = "representing all significant viewpoints that have been published by [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#What counts as a reliable source|reliable sources]], <u>in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources</u>." I have been sending sources and biographies of the subject for days to try show you that these infos are in a big proportion of sources. You never sent any, so how are you judging wp:due then ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 19:30, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::On the topic of BlackSun16, he doesn't seem to have been ever on WP-EN, however his pattern on the French version leaves little room for doubt. I raised to the attention of editors on the French talk page and NinjaRobotPirate's page :
::::- a previous sock-puppet Paulk12 gets blocked Feb 20th,
::::- very same day BlackSun16 is created,
::::- on that day BlackSun16 makes 5 edits in 5 minutes, for a total ... 18 characters (Is there some kind of 5 edit threshold ?)
::::- Absolutely no activity for 6 months (Is there a 6 months threshold ?)
::::- Imagritte gets blocked in end of July
::::- BlackSun16 arrives on Branco's page August 19th and makes a whopping 68'500 characters one-time addition to Branco's French article,
::::- barring another very singular similar contribution to Emmanuel Todd's page, the activity of BlackSun16 is 99% (in volume = characters) on Branco's page,
::::- arrival on Aug. 19th is a mere hours before Neo Trixma also arrives on Branco's French page and starts a duet with BlackSun16 supporting each other in a very intense edit war.
::::https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:Contributions/BlackSun16 [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 08:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::My thoughts on the article would be to keep it reasonably concise at the moment as Branco is only borderline notable and probably would not be notable at all if it wasn't for ''Crépuscule''. I cannot see that he has done anything particularly noteworthy in law or politics. There are millions of lawyers out there going about their business and they do not get Wikipedia articles. Likewise there must be millions of people who hang around on the fringes of politics without ever holding elected office. And he is not an academic so all those masters are not of much interest, except perhaps as background to a writer's career. Of course it might change in the future. [[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]] ([[User talk:Southdevonian|talk]]) 10:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::Fully agree. I would add that in France he is also notable for Griveaux affair. Even if he denied a direct implication, most French people believe that he is at the origin of the publication of the videos that pushed out politics a probable futur major of Paris. Also, it seems that his only success as a lawyer, is the case with his father (I do not count his successes for increasing his visibility in the medias). [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 11:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::Agree, thanks so much for your diligent efforts keeping this article in line. Someone should add an archive to this talk, I always screw it up. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::::This page was already automatically archived, but only after 150 days. I have changed this parameter to 20 days, since the closed threads are 24 days old. So, most of the page should be archived soon. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 13:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::Since you're also accusing me in this talk @[[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]]: I'm not a sockpuppet and I didn't support neo trixma in an edit war.
:::::I hadn't noticed the recent edits on this page (I remembered a particularly negative and biased version I read a few weeks ago). The current consensus seems much more appropriate. [[User:BlackSun16|BlackSun16]] ([[User talk:BlackSun16|talk]]) 15:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


== Twitter outing ==


I rolled back this edit[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1172802392]. It's been added and removed before. I don't object to its inclusion if it has received a lot of coverage, but that doesn't appear to be the case. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
== POV Pushing ==


:Actually, it appeared in the ''Daily Mail'' today [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12454075/Gabriel-Attal-French-education-minister-ban-Islamic-abaya-dress-classrooms.html]. The ''Daily Mail'' is not of course a reliable source so I am not arguing about its removal. [[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]] ([[User talk:Southdevonian|talk]]) 20:03, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
@Nemov: could you clarify your status?&nbsp;You are talking as if you were an admin, but there is no mention of that and if you are, you are editing and debating on content, so you are not an uninvolved admin and you cannot act as such on this article. Thanks. --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 20:08, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:As a note, in these edits, Nemov, you remove all information that the subject would want to be removed even though it is obviously relevant and noteworthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=1165794399&oldid=1165793283 [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 20:12, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:I've never said I was an admin and I have never heard of the person in question. I came to this article after a very confusing RfC was created. Then I was pinged again after some edit warring and I'm attempting to help. For whatever reason this article is littered with bad edits. The edits in question seemed like [[WP:NPOV]] trivial information. If you wish to discuss them by all means open up a discussion and quit making accusations towards editors attempting to help. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 20:21, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::I fail to see how condoning the deletion of all the "controversies" (self promotion on Wikipedia and instrumentalisation of Wikipedia, etc.) in favour of inclusion of insignificant legal representations, and far far away of the option 1 that emerged from the previous RFC is helping progress on the issue. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 20:27, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::You seem to be confused. I have argued against Imagritte's inclusion of trivial information and agreed with Delfield's {{tq|gross exaggeration of a very tiny role or a very tiny issue" point above.}} I don't think the Wikipedia editing stuff is central to this biography because it's trivial. Do you have a policy argument for inclusion? I wouldn't expect an editor with no history outside of this article to have one. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 20:32, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::Option 1 emerged from the previous RFC. You noted it yourself.
::::Yet you back imagritte (and even contribute yourself) to edit back to something near of option 2.
::::Not quite consistent.
::::Please do compare option 1 and what the article is in its current version. [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 20:45, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::You seem to be confused or uninformed. That's not what's happening here. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 20:57, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::Put them side by side option 1 and the latest edit before delfield revert to option & and you'll see.
::::::Otherwise "If y'all continue to edit war this could escalate towards sanctions." : so admin or not admin ? [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 21:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::See what? Anyway, edit warring is a violation of Wiki policies. You don't have to be an admin to point that out. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 21:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Option 1 vs. latest version before Delfield's revert :
::::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=1165850722&oldid=1165849557
::::::::What do they have in common ? 10% maybe ? [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 21:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::I just undid the last edit by imagritte to calls on a consensus to 'build on option 1" yet republishes a version that is 90% different without any kind of previous discussion ... [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 21:35, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
* {{reply to|Ebtpmus|Delfield|Imagritte}} Since y'all are still edit warring I would recommend that no more additions are made to the article until it's hashed out here first. Imagritte, you're still adding far too much content. I tried to summarize it and Delfield just removed it all probably out of frustration. If you wish to add or update a section post a draft here first. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 21:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
*:Imagritte posted then deleted the following :
*:"Firstly content is moving aronud + the discussion was just above but you never responded, just as your last "contribution" on this article was 6 months ago. Your rollbacks are not improving anything here. Imagritte (talk) 21:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)"
*:My last "contribution was 6 month ago because unlike others (you immagritte) I comment on the talk page rather than shoving controversial edits into the article.
*:For our common reference, here are the number of edits in 2023 :
*:Imagritte / Paulk12 = 95
*:Delfield = 19
*:Nemov = 18
*:AnomieBOT = 14
*:D.Lazard = 14
*:Bbb23 = 12
*:...
*:Mine = 3 [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 21:47, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
*::Yes 3 rollbacks. That's what I'm saying. Fell free to indicate which sources you are basing your POV on, and if you're ever planning on actually improving this article. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 22:00, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2024 ==
{{reply to|Nemov}} Kindly avoid commenting on other's behavior because it gives the impression you are an admin, whereas you are not and you are as involved in this dispute as others. I did not remove anything "out of frustration". I tried in good faith to build on option 1, the last consensus, but Imagritte edit-warred with several editors arguing the new version is not option 1. Since a consensus could not be found the new version, I reverted to the last consensus. From this version EACH change should be discussed and agreed upon. I agree with Nemov’s change of title of section though, it should have been discussed first, but let's agree on that now that it is done. --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 06:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


{{edit semi-protected|Juan Branco|answered=yes}}
:I guess something that adds to the confusion is that you closed the RfCs above while being involved in the discussion and voting, I am not sure you could do that, but anyway. [[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 06:40, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:Delfield|@Delfield]] anyone can close RfC when there's a clear reason to do so. In this case there was a clear answer to the question. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 11:38, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Change future education minister Gabriel Attal to future prime minister Gabriel Attal [[User:Matan7a|Matan7a]] ([[User talk:Matan7a|talk]]) 12:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
:@[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] The fact that I even have to argue/convince you to add the results of affairs (e.g Griveaux affair) shows that you are not looking to improve the article at all. This as well : "''[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&action=history&offset=&limit=100 K, let’s go back to the option 1, I added a lot of stuff to go closer to your version, but it seems you prefer stick to option 1.]".'' Is it supposed to be a punishment ? And your previous edit comment "[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165556234 ''I put in what in the longer version by Imagritte seems relevant, nothing more.'']", that's the way you "build on" upon a version ? Chosing unilaterally what's relevant and "nothing more" ? I'm done with this article for now. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 11:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
:[[User:Delfield|@Delfield]] I'm not going to stop giving feedback on policy and behavior because you don't like it. Thanks [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 11:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


:This had already been done, but was changed back, perhaps to emphasise the fact that he was minister of education when he talked about having been bullied at school. Now it gives both positions - minister of education and prime minister. [[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]] ([[User talk:Southdevonian|talk]]) 12:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
== Rollbacks, but improvment ? ==


== Query of a reverted user ==
[[User:Delfield|@Delfield]], putting back 15% of the content I spent hours to translate and double-source-check and saying "that's the only content we're adding back, no more after that" is not discussion, nor seaking [[WP:consensus]]. Rolling back on everything added instead of improving it neither. And i'm still waiting to hear what's your process for assessing what's relevant or not on Wikipedia. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 22:07, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


Hi, I'm new on this page. I want to know why the New informations sourced were removed : the Spanish investigation started this March about the kidnapping of the activist in Mauritania. I put 2 strong sources.
:I did try to be reasonable and add some stuff of your version to accomodate you even though you were edit-warring and not talking. But you aggressively edit-warred arguing my new version is not the last consensus. You were your biggest enemy because you could not settle for the new version I proposed. Therefore we had to go back to the last consensus (option 1 in the last RfC), per Wikipedia policies. --[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] ([[User talk:Delfield|talk]]) 06:36, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Delfield|Delfield]] The fact that I even have to argue/convince you to add the recent results of affairs (e.g. Griveaux affair) shows that you are not trying to improve the article at all. Also this edit comment : "''[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&action=history&offset=&limit=100 K, let’s go back to the option 1, I added a lot of stuff to go closer to your version, but it seems you prefer stick to option 1.]".'' Is that supposed to be a punishment ? And your previous edit comment "[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1165556234 ''I put in what in the longer version by Imagritte seems relevant, nothing more.'']", that's how you "build on" consensus ? By unilaterally deciding what's relevant and "nothing more" ? I'm done with this article for now. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 11:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


Explaination required. I work with Amnesty international and i'm used of censorship in southern countries but not in Wikipedia.
== NPOV and WP:UNDUE + draft proposition ==


@[[User:Nemov|Nemov]] [[User:Origamimi38|Origamimi38]] ([[User talk:Origamimi38|talk]]) 08:45, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
I have fully translated the French article entirely and double-checked almost every (of the 200) sources over the past 2 months, and as far as I can tell, the current "start-class" version here is just a disaster with large controversial chunks based on 1 (primary) source (e.g. [[Juan_Branco#Personal_legal_cases | here]], see [[Wikipedia:UNDUE|wp:undue]] and [[Wikipedia:REDFLAG|wp:redflag]]), and on the other hand missing common, widely covered content and cases. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Imagritte/sandbox Here is what a more neutral and much more complete version could look like]. [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 11:22, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


:The introduction is a summary of the article. It it not the place for new information, which should go, with sources, into the body of the article. Since anything in the introduction has already been sourced in the body of the article, the introduction does not need references. Branco's complaint to Spanish authorities is in any case not sufficiently noteworthy to go into the introduction. [[User:Southdevonian|Southdevonian]] ([[User talk:Southdevonian|talk]]) 09:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
:This draft is not going to gain consensus. It's overly long, contains too much trivial information, and it's dead on arrival. You should know this because you've been told my multiple editors over and over. Why do you keep trying to submit it? Until you understand that sources don't automatically justify inclusion you are wasting a considerable amount of time. For example, the sections on Yellow Vests movement is just full of trivial stuff that doesn't belong in the article. A mention of a preface of an autobiography? This is a key part of a person's biography article that you believes deserves to be mentioned? There's probably a sentence worth of actual content in that section that deserves to be mentioned. Since your idea of what should be included is so far removed the rest of the editors here it's going to be difficult for you to get anything done since you're unwilling to discuss each section. It's a shame because there's probably content that could be included if you were able to be more concise. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
::I have taken the comments into account: it has been summarised, removed terms found to be too promotional, better structure, no more controversy/other activities section, etc. As for your [[Wikipedia:DUE|wp:due]] comment, I have read almost all the sources and saw the proportion: I confirm it is due. Did you ? [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 13:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
:I agree, and I would add that the information seems also not sufficiently noteworthy for being added in the body of the article. In any case, adding it to the body must respect the policy [[WP:POV]]. The use of "kidnapping" for an arrest ordered by a legal authority is clerly a nonneutral formulation. [[User:D.Lazard|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard|talk]]) 10:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
:::Yep, there's 5+ paragraphs about protesters in a biography about a lawyer. It seems clear you don't get it. Another editor also mentioned giving up after attempting to guide you and I think I've reached that point as well. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
::::What you don't understand is that his biographies already call him "the lawyer of the yellow vest protesters". [https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000104349831/juan-branco-der-anwalt-fuer-assange-fuer-die-gelbwesten-und <nowiki>[75]</nowiki>][https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/gilets-jaunes/des-grandes-ecoles-aux-gilets-jaunes-en-passant-par-wikileaks-qui-est-juan-branco-l-auteur-de-crepuscule-en-guerre-contre-macron_3421861.html <nowiki>[76]</nowiki>][https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/russie/piotr-pavlenski/des-gilets-jaunes-a-piotr-pavlenski-en-passant-par-l-intelligentsia-parisienne-la-galaxie-eclectique-de-juan-branco_3835667.html <nowiki>[77]</nowiki>] [[User:Imagritte|Imagritte]] ([[User talk:Imagritte|talk]]) 13:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::This is not true for source 77, and this is merely a nickname for others. Besides that is of very low significance.
:::::Such is a multitude of other facts (many of them "supported" by articles behind paywalls, which means you can make them say anything).
:::::e.g. "In 2013, he assisted to a horse race in the desert at the invite of the Sheikh of Abu Dhabi."
:::::or "being acquainted to stars like Catherine Deneuve"
:::::How is this of any significance anyway ? Are we to list all of daddy's business connections here for posterity ? [[User:Ebtpmus|Ebtpmus]] ([[User talk:Ebtpmus|talk]]) 17:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 06:18, 14 November 2024


Is the whitewashing soon complete ?

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Sorry guys, but I can help being utterly puzzled at what happening here. I keep seeing accusation being raised of uncoordinated and biased changes, double standards for sources etc and calls to alignment on the discussion page. Yet with literally dozens of daily changes and comments on the talk page, when I point out serious misrepresentations of the sources as to the Attal affair or CV embellishments, nothing of this gets answered or addressed and it stays there like it doesn't matter. And when something finally happens, it's that the "question of integrity" paragraph gets discarded altogether while we are graced with the super important information of the composition of Lamaline basically implying "it's only paracetamol after all".

In the meantime, to date :
- lying on role at ICC : gone
- lying on role as chief of staff of Filipetti ministry : gone
- Abdeslam : one lengthy paragraph to explain that approaching him could have been borderline legal (though highly unethical as per the source : the bar itself recommended sanctions) under some circumstances that the source itself clearly explains were not met and as such the case falls out of this exception. But the (proven wrong by the source) argument from Branco is transcribed here verbatim. And complete silence on the harsh criticism from the bar that is 95% of the source article.
- Attal outing : gone

Etc, etc. Ebtpmus (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to restore anything that you think should go in.
As for lamaline, I listed the ingredients "paracetamol, opium and caffeine" because the drug is not, I think, familiar to readers from some countries. In England at least it would look bad in a rape case if you had given someone a drug that in any way affects consciousness. Southdevonian (talk) 11:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ebtpmus, could you please quit throwing accusations around every time you don't like a change to this article? Given your edit history is only about this article, it stands to reason that you may not be the best arbitrator of neutrality about what's WP:DUE when it comes to this particular subject. Nemov (talk) 12:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nemov: you are the one casting aspersions about editors and their motivations all the time. How about you answer my arguments on their merit ? For once. And not about my edit history or supposed motivations.
Edits that have been exclusively on this talk page for quite some time now BTW. And as to the edits I made to the page itself, I don't believe that they were orientated in any way. But feel free to comment specifically on points or suggestions that I have made, instead of remaining comfortably vague. Ebtpmus (talk) 05:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree with you. But D.Lazard took the side of this whitewashing that is totally similar to the previous one he was against: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Juan_Branco&diff=prev&oldid=1169342802 Perhaps he was afraid of the legal threats.
The structure of the page as it is now comes from me actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Juan_Branco&diff=1167727513&oldid=1167249173 I was just noticing that some things were disappearing and putting them back and trying to discuss them in talk page, and then Nemov, who acts an admin (reverting a lot but never ever discussing content), reverted me, and bizarrely D.Lazard took the same position, against his own reverts (he would put back the content on the CV etc. in the past.
If D. Lazard agrees with that, there is nothing one can do. Delfield (talk) 14:46, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not comment my supposed motivations and my supposed opinions, and stop ridiculous accusations (nobody can act as an administrator if he has not the administrator rights; apparently, you have not understood the role of Wikipedia administrators). D.Lazard (talk) 16:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neo Trixma (now blocked as sockpuppet of Branco) changes

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OK, so now it seems that Neo Trixma is blocked on the ground of being a sock puppet of Branco. Which should come as no surprise since the account was apparently created on July 30th, shortly after Imagritte was blocked, and with an activity about 50% on Branco. And given too the nature of the contributions, which produced a considerable amount of whitewashing, as previously pointed out.
So what is the next step ? Revert to a consensual version pre-sock puppet, or try to untangle the Gordian knot of recent changes made in large part by the sockpuppet ? Ebtpmus (talk) 19:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most of that editor's changes have been discussed. No need to do anything major at this time. If there's something you object to change it. Nemov (talk) 20:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I beg to differ.
A lot of the changes by the sock-puppet are not good faith edits (that's the whole point of sock-puppet).
Some (not all) were discussed, mainly with @Southdevonian, who tried I good faith to meet the sock-puppet halfway. Issue is: meeting half-way somebody pushing lies into the article is not conducive of quality.
Those edits build-up to the whitewashing I previously pointed out. At what stage you ignored the obvious and raised some accusations against me instead.
The white-washing is nonetheless obvious: the edits gradually removed most content that could cast a negative light (entire sections disappeared) while on the few remaining contentious topics, most/all information on the substance of the cases held against Branco disappeared and was replaced by lengthy descriptions of the arguments/ claims made by Branco in his defense. Even some that are stated to be untrue by the mere source used as "proof" (eg. Abdeslam case: the newspaper states that Branco's arguments are factually untrue and disproves them, yet it is a thorough presentation of his arguments that made their way into the WP article without any mention of the newspaper's conclusion that it is an obvious misrepresentation of facts). Ebtpmus (talk) 20:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS : I am happy to edit the page, though I'd value some input/feedback/opinion from users involved in the content (rather than the moderation) beforehand. Ebtpmus (talk) 20:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a specific issue make the change, but mass changes are not welcome. Nemov (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fairness, my first query about possible block evasion came back as suspicious rather than positive [1]. So I assumed we were dealing with Team Branco or a dedicated Branco fan, rather than another sockpuppet. As for Neo Trixma and BlackSun - both names are taken from film/TV... Southdevonian (talk) 00:10, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the topic of BlackSun16, he doesn't seem to have been ever on WP-EN, however his pattern on the French version leaves little room for doubt. I raised to the attention of editors on the French talk page and NinjaRobotPirate's page :
- a previous sock-puppet Paulk12 gets blocked Feb 20th,
- very same day BlackSun16 is created,
- on that day BlackSun16 makes 5 edits in 5 minutes, for a total ... 18 characters (Is there some kind of 5 edit threshold ?)
- Absolutely no activity for 6 months (Is there a 6 months threshold ?)
- Imagritte gets blocked in end of July
- BlackSun16 arrives on Branco's page August 19th and makes a whopping 68'500 characters one-time addition to Branco's French article,
- barring another very singular similar contribution to Emmanuel Todd's page, the activity of BlackSun16 is 99% (in volume = characters) on Branco's page,
- arrival on Aug. 19th is a mere hours before Neo Trixma also arrives on Branco's French page and starts a duet with BlackSun16 supporting each other in a very intense edit war.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:Contributions/BlackSun16 Ebtpmus (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My thoughts on the article would be to keep it reasonably concise at the moment as Branco is only borderline notable and probably would not be notable at all if it wasn't for Crépuscule. I cannot see that he has done anything particularly noteworthy in law or politics. There are millions of lawyers out there going about their business and they do not get Wikipedia articles. Likewise there must be millions of people who hang around on the fringes of politics without ever holding elected office. And he is not an academic so all those masters are not of much interest, except perhaps as background to a writer's career. Of course it might change in the future. Southdevonian (talk) 10:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree. I would add that in France he is also notable for Griveaux affair. Even if he denied a direct implication, most French people believe that he is at the origin of the publication of the videos that pushed out politics a probable futur major of Paris. Also, it seems that his only success as a lawyer, is the case with his father (I do not count his successes for increasing his visibility in the medias). D.Lazard (talk) 11:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, thanks so much for your diligent efforts keeping this article in line. Someone should add an archive to this talk, I always screw it up. Nemov (talk) 12:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This page was already automatically archived, but only after 150 days. I have changed this parameter to 20 days, since the closed threads are 24 days old. So, most of the page should be archived soon. D.Lazard (talk) 13:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since you're also accusing me in this talk @Ebtpmus: I'm not a sockpuppet and I didn't support neo trixma in an edit war.
I hadn't noticed the recent edits on this page (I remembered a particularly negative and biased version I read a few weeks ago). The current consensus seems much more appropriate. BlackSun16 (talk) 15:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Twitter outing

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I rolled back this edit[2]. It's been added and removed before. I don't object to its inclusion if it has received a lot of coverage, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Nemov (talk) 13:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it appeared in the Daily Mail today [3]. The Daily Mail is not of course a reliable source so I am not arguing about its removal. Southdevonian (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2024

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Change future education minister Gabriel Attal to future prime minister Gabriel Attal Matan7a (talk) 12:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This had already been done, but was changed back, perhaps to emphasise the fact that he was minister of education when he talked about having been bullied at school. Now it gives both positions - minister of education and prime minister. Southdevonian (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Query of a reverted user

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Hi, I'm new on this page. I want to know why the New informations sourced were removed : the Spanish investigation started this March about the kidnapping of the activist in Mauritania. I put 2 strong sources.

Explaination required. I work with Amnesty international and i'm used of censorship in southern countries but not in Wikipedia.

@Nemov Origamimi38 (talk) 08:45, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction is a summary of the article. It it not the place for new information, which should go, with sources, into the body of the article. Since anything in the introduction has already been sourced in the body of the article, the introduction does not need references. Branco's complaint to Spanish authorities is in any case not sufficiently noteworthy to go into the introduction. Southdevonian (talk) 09:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, and I would add that the information seems also not sufficiently noteworthy for being added in the body of the article. In any case, adding it to the body must respect the policy WP:POV. The use of "kidnapping" for an arrest ordered by a legal authority is clerly a nonneutral formulation. D.Lazard (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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