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Frequently asked questions

Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ below, which represents the consensus of editors here. Please remember that this page is only for discussing Wikipedia's encyclopedia article about Homeopathy.

To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

Q1: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the article? (Yes.)

A1: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy must be included in the article. The articles on Wikipedia include information from all significant points of view. This is summarized in the policy pages which can be accessed from the Neutral point of view policy. This article strives to conform to Wikipedia policies, which dictate that a substantial fraction of articles in fringe areas be devoted to mainstream views of those topics.

Q2: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the lead? (Yes.)

A2: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy belongs in the lead section. The lead must contain a summary of all the material in the article, including the critical material. This is described further in the Lead section guideline.

Q3: Is the negative material in the article NPOV? (Yes.)

A3: Yes. Including negative material is part of achieving a neutral article. A neutral point of view does not necessarily equate to a sympathetic point of view. Neutrality is achieved by including all points of view – both positive and negative – in rough proportion to their prominence.

Q4: Does Wikipedia consider homeopathy a fringe theory? (Yes.)

A4: Yes. Homeopathy is described as a fringe medical system in sources reliable to make the distinction.^[1] This is defined by the Fringe theories guideline, which explains: We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study.

Since the collective weight of peer-reviewed studies does not support the efficacy of homeopathy, it departs significantly enough from the mainstream view of science to be considered a fringe theory.

References

^ Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136.

Q5: Should studies that show that homeopathy does not work go into the article? (Yes.)

A5: Yes. Studies that show that homeopathy does not work are part of a full treatment of the topic and should go into the article. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. Non-experts have suggested that all the studies that show homeopathy does not work are faulty studies and are biased, but this has not been borne out by the mainstream scientific community.

Q6: Should another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" be created? (No.)

A6: No. Another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" should not be created. This is called a "POV fork" and is discouraged.

Q7: Should alleged proof that homeopathy works be included in the article? (No.)

A7: No. Alleged proof that homeopathy works should not be included in the article. That is because no such proof has come from reliable sources. If you have found a reliable source, such as an academic study, that you think should be included, you can propose it for inclusion on the article’s talk page. Note that we do not have room for all material, both positive and negative. We try to sample some of each and report them according to their prominence. Note also that it is not the job of Wikipedia to convince those people who do not believe homeopathy works, nor to dissuade those who believe that it does work, but to accurately describe how many believe and how many do not believe and why.

Q8: Should all references to material critical of homeopathy be put in a single section in the article? (No.)

A8: No. Sources critical of homeopathy should be integrated normally in the course of presenting the topic and its reception, not shunted into a single criticism section. Such segregation is generally frowned upon as poor writing style on Wikipedia.

Q9: Should the article mention that homeopathy might work by some as-yet undiscovered mechanism? (No.)

A9: No. The article should not mention that homeopathy might work by some as-yet undiscovered mechanism. Wikipedia is not a place for original research or speculation.

Q10: Is the article with its negative material biased? (No.)

A10: No. The article with its negative material is not biased. The article must include both positive and negative views according to the policies of Wikipedia.

Q11: Should the article characterize homeopathy as a blatant fraud and quackery? (No.)

A11: No. Inflammatory language does not serve the purpose of an encyclopedia; it should only be done if essential to explain a specific point of view and must be supported from a reliable source. Wikipedia articles must be neutral and reflect information found in reliable sources. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a consumer guide, so while scientific sources commonly characterise homeopathy as nonsense, fraud, pseudoscience and quackery - and the article should (and does) report this consensus - ultimately the reader should be allowed to draw his/her own conclusions.

Do not feed the trolls!
This article or its talk page has experienced trolling. The subject may be controversial or otherwise objectionable, but it is important to keep discussion on a high level. Do not get bogged down in endless debates that don't lead anywhere. Know when to deny recognition and refer to WP:PSCI, WP:FALSEBALANCE, WP:WIKIVOICE, or relevant notice-boards. Legal threats and trolling are never allowed!

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Homeopathy has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 14, 2006	Good article nominee	Not listed
September 27, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
October 8, 2007	Good article reassessment	Delisted
October 13, 2007	Good article reassessment	Delisted
October 19, 2007	Peer review	Reviewed
October 25, 2007	Good article nominee	Listed
February 9, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
March 2, 2009	Peer review	Reviewed
April 4, 2009	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 2, 2012	Good article reassessment	Delisted
June 11, 2020	Good article nominee	Not listed
October 29, 2020	Good article nominee	Listed
Current status: Good article

Skepticism Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Homeopathy (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Homeopathy, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HomeopathyWikipedia:WikiProject HomeopathyTemplate:WikiProject HomeopathyHomeopathy

Alternative medicine

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine

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	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views
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Citizendium Porting (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Citizendium Porting, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Citizendium PortingWikipedia:WikiProject Citizendium PortingTemplate:WikiProject Citizendium PortingCitizendium Porting

Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Homeopathy.

PubMed provides review articles from the past five years (limit to free review articles)
The TRIP database provides clinical publications about evidence-based medicine.
Other potential sources include: Centre for Reviews and Dissemination and CDC

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

David Gorski (March 6, 2023). "Ivermectin booster Dr. Tess Lawrie goes all-in for homeopathy for COVID and long COVID". Science-Based Medicine. Retrieved March 13, 2023. Lawrie, as is the case with most quacks, is not happy with Wikipedia. Indeed, she starts out by looking at Wikipedia: "Let's start with the lies and misinformation about homeopathy. Here's how the internet's propaganda factory Wikipedia currently defines it:"
Syeda ShahBano Ijaz (29 May 2023). "How Conflicts and Population Loss Led to the Rise of English Wikipedia's Credibility". American Political Science Association. Retrieved 30 May 2023. Take the example of the Wikipedia page on homeopathy: from 2001-2006, the lead on the page described homeopathy as a "controversial system of alternative medicine." From 2006-2013, the content changed to mentioning that homeopathy has been "regarded as pseudoscience" and sharing that there is a "lack of convincing scientific evidence confirming its efficacy." By 2015, this description had stabilized to "homeopathy is a pseudoscience."

Mathematically impossible statement

The article contains this statement: "A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance." This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. Andrewbrink (talk) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. Andrewbrink (talk) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The maths itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. Black Kite (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this is all WP:OR, it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the law of conservation of mass— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is also incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. Dronebogus (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It cites a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? Dronebogus (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: [1]. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024

Collapse AI blather

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Wikipedia's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Wikipedia, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Wikipedia should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Wikipedia lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.

118.148.126.228 (talk) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. Bon courage (talk) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Jonas2008-1] Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136.

[1]

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+== Mathematically impossible statement ==
-== Consumer Fraud Category? ==
+The article contains this statement:
-It is established that homeopathy is [[Quackery]], but Wikipedia's definition of [[Fraud]] clearly states '''intentional''' deception, as opposed to sometimes ignorant deception which is the case with quackery/health fraud. So should this category still apply? No source demonstrates that homeopaths are engaged in (the regular sense, intentional) fraud. In my view, it's like saying that doctors performing bloodletting were frauds -- untrue, they were ignorant. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 15:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
+"A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance."
+This does not make any sense.  For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large.  For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity.  If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. [[User:Andrewbrink|Andrewbrink]] ([[User talk:Andrewbrink|talk]]) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+:It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think.<span id="Usedtobecool:1722222132127:TalkFTTCLNHomeopathy" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)</span>
+::No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth.  This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere.  If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. [[User:Andrewbrink|Andrewbrink]] ([[User talk:Andrewbrink|talk]]) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::The ''maths'' itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times.  If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::::If this is all [[WP:OR]], it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the [[Conservation of mass|law of conservation of mass]]— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is ''also'' incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::::It cites a source. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::::::It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
+::::::::I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Homeopathy&diff=1237616920&oldid=1237423906]. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
+== Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024 ==
-:Are you saying that categorization is not [[WP:CATV|verifiable]]? It does say "fraud" in the lead and with three citations. [[User:ByVarying|ByVarying]] ([[User talk:ByVarying|talk]]) 17:29, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
+{{collapse top|Collapse AI blather}}
-::Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Those three sources do not characterize homeopathy with the word 'fraud' (I am cleaning this up by removing that word in the lead and removing the ref to the [https://web.archive.org/web/20130420234704/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10003680/Homeopathy-is-nonsense-says-new-chief-scientist.html%7C Telegraph article], which mentions nothing about fraud or quackery.)
+{{edit semi-protected|Homeopathy|answered=yes}}
-::In general, when homeopathy is referred to as 'fraud' (for example, [[Homeopathy#Revival in the 20th century|here in the article]]), we are talking about [[health fraud]], which, according to the article, involves fraudulent ''or'' ignorant practices in healthcare. If we agree on that -- then precisely, not verifiable according to [[Wikipedia:Categorization#Verifiable]] -- categorization should be uncontroversial, and it is unclear where homeopathy is reliably established as 'intentional fraud'.
+This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Wikipedia's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Wikipedia, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Wikipedia should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Wikipedia lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.
-::My concern, summarized: the [[:Category:Consumer fraud|category]] is about [[fraud]], not [[quackery]]. Homeopathy is uncontroversially quackery, but we can't say the same for fraud. Obviously, I'm unsure about this, which is why I have put this into the discussion to get an opinion. Quite confusing how health fraud encompasses ignorant practices too, while the English definition of fraud very clearly involves intentional deceit. Want to get experienced editors' opinions on this matter and how categorization works in general (the guide is a bit ambiguous.) [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 18:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
+{{collapse bottom}}
-:::Well, you can just boldly remove the category if you think it fails verification. Someone might object though and come to this discussion. Also, we shouldn't base our assessment of what fraud, consumer fraud, etc. are upon what the wikipedia articles say they are: whether homeopathy is (consumer) fraud depends solely on what RS say about the matter. [[User:ByVarying|ByVarying]] ([[User talk:ByVarying|talk]]) 18:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
+[[Special:Contributions/118.148.126.228|118.148.126.228]] ([[User talk:118.148.126.228|talk]]) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
-::::Fair enough, but this is regarding [[:Category:Fraud]], which would require some perspective on the definition, right? Plus, as mentioned before, the RS in the lead didn't mention fraud. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 19:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::I can't make bold edits on this article as they are automatically assumed to be disruptive. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 20:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
+:{{notdone}} Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
-:There's a combination of true believers and frauds in the homeopathy business. &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 18:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-::Agreed, but the same can be said of any practice. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 18:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-: Also depends on the location.  There are many true believers in homeopathy in Asia, for example.  Meanwhile, in the West ... [https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2012/aug/02/1]. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 18:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-::Take this with a pinch of salt, but I would contend that most practitioners, even in the West, actually believe in it. But yes, it is worse in Asia -- in India, it is heavily institutionalized. Hard to say that a considerable fraction of Indian homeopaths are frauds. I just feel that the consumer fraud label doesn't wholly encompass quackery, and it's tough to justify it. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 18:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-:The FDA definition of health fraud does not require any sort of intent. {{Quote2| "The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) defines health fraud as the deceptive promotion, advertising, distribution, or sale of a product represented as being effective to prevent, diagnose, treat, cure, or lessen an illness or condition, or provide another beneficial effect on health, but that has not been scientifically proven safe and effective for such purposes."|[https://www.fda.gov/media/76165/download FDA]}} [[User:ScienceFlyer|ScienceFlyer]] ([[User talk:ScienceFlyer|talk]]) 19:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-:I guess you didn't read what I wrote. I agree that homeopathy is health fraud. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 19:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-We're in a tricky area here, as, just like with telling falsehoods, quackery (health fraud) does not always have to be deliberate: "A quack is a "fraudulent or '''<u>ignorant</u>''' pretender to medical skill" or "a person who pretends, professionally or publicly, to have skill, knowledge, qualification or credentials they do not possess; a charlatan or snake oil salesman". Ignorance qualifies for the label. When someone should know better and acts against what is common knowledge, they can justly be called a fraud, even if they are an ignorant true believer.
-The parallel with lying is seen in how we, and all RS and fact-checkers, deal with Trump. In the beginning, his flood of falsehoods was not labeled "lies", based on the argument that we did not know what he was thinking, IOW we didn't know if he knew what he was saying was false. Then it got so bad that even the most staunch opposers of labeling him a liar, such as at the New York Times and Washington Post, said they would start to do so because he should know better. His motivation was now irrelevant. His total disregard for the idea of truth qualified him for the label of "liar". He was making false statements that were against obvious common sense and what everyone else knew, so they began to label him a liar. Since then we don't try to figure out if someone knows better. If they are acting against what the vast majority of people know better, then they are culpable of willful ignorance, and if an innocent ignorant person gets caught up in that, well, that's too bad, but the public good is more important than sparing their feelings. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|<span style="color:#0bf">PING me</span>]]''''') 20:08, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-:I noted the definition of a quack and '''fully agree''' that homeopathy is quackery/health fraud. However, as a general term, "fraud" unquestionably includes intent. Now, in a parallel point of discussion about the article, the lead's mentioning of fraud ''alongside quackery, which is equivalent to health fraud'', is '''not in the sources'''. Furthermore, one source is completely irrelevant and mentions neither. Regarding the category, it is not uncontroversial. In general, I don't see how the reference to the lone word "fraud" can be helpful, as the article clearly establishes that homeopathy is health fraud. This is my final position. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 20:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-:I'm not very well-read on American politics, but I don't think Trump is a fair analogy to this. A lie is an intentionally false statement. A quick read of [[False or misleading statements by Donald Trump]] shows that the term "lie" came in favor due to "frequent repetition of claims he <u>''knew''</u> to be false" -- probably much easier to ascertain about one person than thousands of homeo-quacks, for whom there would really need to be some reliable sources establishing this. In India, the system is so skewed that there is a [[Ministry of Ayush|ministry]] for quackery, and so the "vast majority of people" don't know better and it's not "obvious common sense." [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 20:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-:I don't know if this is over now but what about changing category "consumer fraud" to "health fraud" (which is a category)? [[User:ByVarying|ByVarying]] ([[User talk:ByVarying|talk]]) 23:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-::I've added health fraud as a category, that should be completely uncontroversial and is supported by sources. Still seeking consensus on removing 'consumer fraud', as well as changes to the lead. Waiting for those who reverted my edits to respond. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 02:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::I've been watching, but haven't commented until now. I agree with adding the health fraud category, and in my opinion, that would make it reasonable to remove the consumer fraud category. I think it's also reasonable to say and link to [[fraud]] in the lead section. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:40, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::The sources provided in the lead do not support that conclusion, however. Especially the Telegraph source, which really should be deleted as it doesn’t even refer to quackery, although my deletion was illogically reverted.
-::::[https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-cam-fraud/ This article] is about all I could find on whether alt med is intentional fraud, and the answer is uncertain — it “will be so when knowledge is widespread in the future.” Unless someone else can find a source that actually refers to homeopathy as quackery ''and'' fraud, I cannot see how the inclusion of that word is justified.
-::::It’s a bit like saying “evolution is a theory,” supported by sources, and the word “theory” linking to a definition that equates to hypothesis. Or “conspiracy [[Scientific theory|theory]]” with the link to a scientific theory. It’s a mischaracterization.
-::::When is there going to be any consensus? I do not see how this is that controversial. Especially removing the Telegraph source! [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 06:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::::You've made some interesting points, but I don't believe you're going to see consensus for this change, given people's opinions above. If you wish to pursue it further, you might want to request some outside perspective via [[WP:DRN]] or starting a [[WP:RfC]]. &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 12:01, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::::Really doesn’t look like there even is a dispute.  Do we really need to go through dispute resolution for cleaning up an irrelevant source and removing wording that is not supported in the slightest by the sources? I understand the discussion regarding the inclusion of the *category*, which is why I started it, but the stuff in the lead seems like taking 2+2=5 to a dispute. Basically, my edits were assumed to be vandalism, and when it turned out that they weren’t, the discussion was stopped — no one has given a single argument in favor of keeping the lead as it is except “consensus hasn’t been reached”! If you’re going to revert my edits, then enlist your reasons for reverting the entire thing?
-::::::Here is the flow of events: I start a discussion, and I’m advised to make a bold edit. 1st edit - reverted because assumed vandalism. I restored because of an incorrect reason to revert. This was then reverted again because “talk didn’t reach consensus”. Is this valid under [[Wikipedia:Revert|Wikipedia policy]]? And now I’m being advised to reach consensus based on bogus reverts that have zero “opinions”. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 06:09, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::Yes, there is ''obviously'' a dispute. No one mentioned vandalism other than yourself. Referring to reverts you disagree with as "bogus" is unhelpful. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 09:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::::::Actually, the first edit revert [[User talk:Eroz7|was a sloppy vandalism assumption]] — and the second revert was practically the same. Both were not motivated by the opinions of those reverting. Just unhelpful warnings. Apologies for using the loaded term “bogus”, it isn’t to say that they were not in good faith. Just unhelpful, and undermining one’s ability to make bold changes. If any change at all needs to be discussed, then why not protect the page more strongly?
-::::::::Anyhow, I don’t care enough to continue discussing who was right or wrong, I’m just trying to improve the article, and not a single point I have made regarding the content has been addressed. The “dispute” is essentially “let’s reach consensus.” [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 10:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::::For the record [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Homeopathy&diff=1168265279 the second revert] was noting that this discussion had not reached consensus. Apologies if I was unclear when mentioning [[WP:BRD]] much earlier but you're generally supposed to wait until consensus has been reached before trying a second edit. (I do see that the first reverter initially said they made a mistake but iirc by then the second revert already happened. It's best to wait even if you think the reason for reverting was wrong.) [[User:ByVarying|ByVarying]] ([[User talk:ByVarying|talk]]) 19:09, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::::::::Well, I was sure the reason was wrong as soon as the vandalism notice popped up on my talk page. Secondly, both the reverts weren’t motivated by an actual difference of opinion; the first was a mistake and the second was “Hey, your change got reverted and the talk hasn’t reached a consensus (for what bold change?) so you can’t make any change. Let me also drop a warning to further intimidate you.” I sought out the opinions of experienced editors, and the response most have given is to try and shut me down.
-::::::::::Anyhow, it seems as though we’re getting somewhere. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 18:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
-:I'm fine with removing the "consumer fraud" category. It is unclear to me why you want to remove the Telegraph cite; it appears relevant. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 09:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
-::It has no mention of quackery or fraud. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 10:35, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::It quotes medical and scientific experts saying that it is "nonsense", "non-science", that it's use is "mad", and that it is "witchcraft", and links to another such statement with text describing it as "rubbish". That's certainly enough to support "quackery" as a paraphrase. Look at the meaning, not just the individual words. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 11:17, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::Agreeing with this. It's also supportive that the other sources present do explicitly use the term quackery. [[User:ByVarying|ByVarying]] ([[User talk:ByVarying|talk]]) 19:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::Good point. I would contend then that the use of the phrase “quackery AND fraud” based on those sources is original research, and fraud should be deleted. There seems to be agreement among other editors that the category of consumer fraud should also be removed. Are these changes fair? [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 18:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::::I think the health fraud category makes the consumer fraud category redundant, so as with other editors here I think the consumer fraud category could be removed, but otherwise no. As I said, don't look at the individual words, look at the meaning and paraphrase that. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 18:32, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::::To paraphrase the meaning of any of that to “fraud” is an enormous leap and purely [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]]. We aren’t the arbiters of meaning. For a conclusion like “fraud” to be drawn, it needs to explicitly be present in those sources. I would contend that it is absolutely incorrect, too — I had previously noted the distinction between fraud in the general sense and health fraud/quackery. Nobody has addressed that. Why not change “quackery and fraud” to “quackery (or/, also known as,) health fraud”? And we can remove the link to the general sense of fraud that includes intent. In my opinion, that is much more precise and avoids controversial conclusions regarding the belief of the medical/scientific community. [[User:Eroz7|Eroz7]] ([[User talk:Eroz7|talk]]) 18:48, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
-== Homeopathy oldest European alternative medicine? ==
-The article states the following about Homeopathy: "Homeopathy, the longest established alternative medicine to come out of Europe," the source being a book on homeopathy.
-How do we define something as established? Animal magnetism, for example, was created 20 years prior (in Vienna) and is still being practiced today in various countries in Europe (most prominently, it seems, in France), even if the term 'animal' has been dropped. It still has institutions. I would therefore consider it as a 'longer established alternative medicine to come out of Europe.'
-In the end it is but a detail, and homeopathy is without question much wider spread than magnetism. What do other things of this? [[Special:Contributions/130.92.208.129|130.92.208.129]] ([[User talk:130.92.208.129|talk]]) 12:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
-:Alternative medicine is simply stuff that is used as medicine but has no valid evidence of efficacy. So, humorism is alternative medicine now, although it was mainstream for centuries before homepathy was invented.
-:I think this claim is simply a meaningless [[appeal to antiquity]] and should be deleted. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 12:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
-::I agree, the sentence is more factually correct (and concise) without this particular insertion.
-::I am sure there is a debate to be had which form of complementary healthcare is the oldest, still established form coming from Europe--but this debate is largely inconsequential to the audience of this Wikipedia page. [[Special:Contributions/130.92.208.129|130.92.208.129]] ([[User talk:130.92.208.129|talk]]) 13:30, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
-:::I agree, and I have removed it: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Homeopathy&diff=1175096454&oldid=1173423704]. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
-==Reverting deleting edits?  ==
-Is it not against Wikipedia rules to delete contributions made by other users in the talk page ? If you dont agree with what I suggested just try to discuss it.. If discussion is difficult for you then try to educate yourselves ... a little about rules in elementery discourse...