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Jhana Table : Incomplete?

Hey Joshua - I added some thoughts to your talk page section, Template_talk:JhanaFactors#Incomplete. Just thought I'd mention this here just in case you're not following that page and might be interested in following up. I hope you're doing great! Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 19:16, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops! My bad! Based on a wrong-headed skim of A.K. Warder's Indian Buddhism (p.91), I had made an inference that maybe the first factor you were referencing (sampasadhana) was based on Sanskrit parallels while the existing Wikipedia entries were using the Pali texts. But, I now see that sampasadana (without the 'h'; or, in Sanskrit, sa.mprasaada) can be found in 322 different Early Buddhist texts according to Sutta Central (https://suttacentral.net/search?query=in:ebs+sampasada), many -- if not all! -- having to do with the second jhana. So, why do I and other WP contributers not consider sampasadana to be one of the jhana "factors"? Regrettably, it's been a decade since I've dug into this stuff so I don't recall my own sources. And, of course, my knowledge is decimated. I'll keep digging here though and, when I think I find something worthy of your time, I'll write again. (For what it's worth, I initally started the Talk page thread because I was confused by some of your edits to the table. Let's unravel this thing first though :-) [Also, tangentially, I think uppekha is a separate issue. My vague recollection is that term per se was applied to the jhana factors in the Abhidhamma, not in the Sutta Pitaka -- which may not matter here? --, but, my memory's wrong a lot lately.]) If you want to dig together, please let me know :-) Best, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Larry Rosenfeld: I have to read your comments yet, but thanks for reaching out. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Adimo" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Adimo has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 4 § Adimo until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 07:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Historicity

Hi [Joshua Jonathan], I noticed you reverted my edit on [Ramayana]. To answer your question: The contents of any religious book of any kind is scrutinized by Modern Scholarship (its historicity) and they put forward their findings. I added that aspect to the article to make it balanced. I believed the information was accurate and properly sourced. Let me know if there’s anything I can clarify. Thanks! Tamir Nazir (talk) 09:22, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tamir Nazir: those two sources are over a century old, and placed in a disjunct section. What purpose does that serve, other than to enrage Hindus? If such characterisations wre to be used, the it should be a subsection on "Genre," which also mentions Itihasa-Purana. Otherwise, it's WP:UNDUE and a violation of WP:NPOV. IP, I hope you're watching too. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your clarification. I see your point. There has to be such characterizations to make The Ramayana article broad and balanced according to WP:NPOV, Tamir Nazir (talk) 10:06, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, JJ, for asking for my input. Itihas-Purana sufficiently covers "mythology." Anything in excess is POV pushing. The sources are severely outdated. By the same logic, mythology should be added against all books claiming things like a human riding a donkey to the moon, a man splitting a river in half, person walking on water etc. Religious pages should strictly follow NPOV. Why unnecessarily enrage just one group? Just because the group doesn’t react by cutting heads? Weak. I leave this to you. I am fed up. 2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 10:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-inserted the info as a note; feel free to revert. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine—better than frequent revert wars, which are inevitable. Hindus are accustomed to extra attention, criticism, and scrutiny of their texts anyway, and this has been the case since ancient times, so it's nothing new. My only issue is with the sources, which are too outdated to provide meaningful direction, as well as the lack of commentaries from opposing perspectives. If you can find newer sources, please replace these archaic ones written during the missionary colonial era and add one or two differing viewpoints. I don't know what others will have to say; if they had anything to say, I wouldn’t be wasting my time here. And yes, I know it's futile to suggest doing this for all other religious texts across the world. So, taking my leave now. Good talk! 2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 11:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Season's Greetings

		Season's Greetings
		Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Adoration of the Magi in the Snow (1563) by Pieter Bruegel the Elder is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up

Hi, could you please help clean up the article Vizhinjam International Seaport Thiruvananthapuram? At present, it is written with a promotional tone, and much of the content are original research, and lacks text-source integrity. 2409:4073:31C:4337:F9C9:66CB:C27C:510E (talk) 13:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look; not my cup of tea... PS: I did several Google searches for Ramayanana and mythology, but found no satisfactory sources. Labelling it only as mythology is tok simple, I think. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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+== Jhana Table : Incomplete? ==
-== Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion ==
-[[File:Information icon4.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]]
-Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring]] regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit warring]].   <!--Template:An3-notice--> Thank you. [[User:Whysoanonymous|Whysoanonymous]] ([[User talk:Whysoanonymous|talk]]) 08:40, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
+Hey Joshua - I added some thoughts to your talk page section, [[Template_talk:JhanaFactors#Incomplete]].  Just thought I'd mention this here just in case you're not following that page and might be interested in following up.  I hope you're doing great! [[User:Larry_Rosenfeld|Larry Rosenfeld]] ([[User_talk:Larry_Rosenfeld|talk]]) 19:16, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
-:I looked into how and why you could get involved into Edit warring, which seemed unlikely, and being a retired informaticist, who didn't forget everything, I found that the IP user there, faking signature of Dunny830, ''also faked link to your talk page as part of his faked signature'' (see [Https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1183650903&oldid=1183650781 diff] and the rest around). That got cross reverted and undone several times, and that's probably why you got notified above.
-:I suppose that is someone very knowledgeable about WP including arbitration processes, that got banned. He knew how to seem to do 3reverts, but the third was revert of his own previous change so he formally wouldn't be in that violation. (I had seen info about Croatian guy that WFoundation had several years of problems like that, being admin etc. there at the time, so I don't take this easy).
-:About location from IP-s: see
-:* [Https://ipinfo.io/96.246.158.82 this for 96.246.158.82] (two posts, provider Verizon Business, possibly at job),
-:* [https://ipinfo.io/12.89.215.238 this for 12.89.215.238] (one post, provider AT&T Services, Inc., possibly mobile while commuting), both New York City, and
-:* [https://ipinfo.io/96.57.24.10 this for 96.57.24.10] (two posts, possibly residential, because it seems to be a TV cable provider, possibly Gravesend in Brooklyn, NY).
-:Next same MO(perandi) is by user that was inactive for several years, and is currently permanently blocked. [[User:Marjan Tomki SI|Marjan Tomki SI]] ([[User talk:Marjan Tomki SI|talk]]) 15:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
+:Whoops! My bad!  Based on a wrong-headed skim of A.K. Warder's Indian Buddhism (p.91), I had made an inference that maybe the first factor you were referencing (''sampasadhana'') was based on Sanskrit parallels while the existing Wikipedia entries were using the Pali texts.  But, I now see that ''sampasadana'' (without the 'h'; or, in Sanskrit, ''sa.mprasaada'') can be found in 322 different Early Buddhist texts according to Sutta Central (https://suttacentral.net/search?query=in:ebs+sampasada), many -- if not all! -- having to do with the second jhana.  So, why do I and other WP contributers not consider ''sampasadana'' to be one of the jhana "factors"?  Regrettably, it's been a decade since I've dug into this stuff so I don't recall my own sources.  And, of course, my knowledge is decimated.  I'll keep digging here though and, when I think I find something worthy of your time, I'll write again.  (For what it's worth, I initally started the Talk page thread because I was confused by some of your edits to the table.  Let's unravel this thing first though :-)  [Also, tangentially, I think ''uppekha'' is a separate issue.  My vague recollection is that term per se was applied to the jhana factors in the Abhidhamma, not in the Sutta Pitaka -- which may not matter here? --, but, my memory's wrong a lot lately.])  If you want to dig together, please let me know :-) Best, [[User:Larry_Rosenfeld|Larry Rosenfeld]] ([[User_talk:Larry_Rosenfeld|talk]]) 21:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
-== Thank you! ==
+::{{yo|Larry Rosenfeld}} I have to read your comments yet, but thanks for reaching out. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] - [[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 05:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
+== "[[:Adimo]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
+[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
+The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Adimo&redirect=no Adimo]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 4#Adimo}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Jay| Jay]]</span><span style="font-size:115%">[[User talk:Jay| 💬]]</span> 07:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
+== Historicity ==
-{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
-|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:Original Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]
+Hi [Joshua Jonathan], I noticed you reverted my edit on [Ramayana]. To answer your question: The contents of any religious book of any kind is scrutinized by Modern Scholarship (its historicity) and they put forward their findings. I added that aspect to the article to make it balanced. I believed the information was accurate and properly sourced. Let me know if there’s anything I can clarify. Thanks! [[User:Tamir Nazir|Tamir Nazir]] ([[User talk:Tamir Nazir|talk]]) 09:22, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
+:{{yo|Tamir Nazir}} those two sources are over a century old, and placed in a disjunct section. What purpose does that serve, other than to enrage Hindus? ''If'' such characterisations wre to be used, the it should be a subsection on "Genre," which also mentions [[:Itihasa-Purana]]. Otherwise, it's [[WP:UNDUE]] and a violation of [[WP:NPOV]]. IP, I hope you're watching too. Regards, [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] - [[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 09:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
+::Thanks for your clarification. I see your point. There has to be such characterizations to make The Ramayana article broad and balanced according to [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|WP:NPOV]], [[User:Tamir Nazir|Tamir Nazir]] ([[User talk:Tamir Nazir|talk]]) 10:06, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
+::Thanks, JJ, for asking for my input. Itihas-Purana sufficiently covers "mythology." Anything in excess is POV pushing. The sources are severely outdated. By the same logic, mythology should be added against all books claiming things like a human riding a donkey to the moon, a man splitting a river in half, person walking on water etc. Religious pages should strictly follow NPOV. Why unnecessarily enrage just one group? Just because the group doesn’t react by cutting heads? Weak. I leave this to you. I am fed up. [[Special:Contributions/2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0|2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0]] ([[User talk:2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0|talk]]) 10:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
+:::I have re-inserted the info as a note; feel free to revert. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] - [[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 10:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
+::::It's fine—better than frequent revert wars, which are inevitable. Hindus are accustomed to extra attention, criticism, and scrutiny of their texts anyway, and this has been the case since ancient times, so it's nothing new. My only issue is with the sources, which are too outdated to provide meaningful direction, as well as the lack of commentaries from opposing perspectives. If you can find newer sources, please replace these archaic ones written during the missionary colonial era and add one or two differing viewpoints. I don't know what others will have to say; if they had anything to say, I wouldn’t be wasting my time here. And yes, I know it's futile to suggest doing this for all other religious texts across the world. So, taking my leave now. Good talk! [[Special:Contributions/2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0|2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0]] ([[User talk:2409:40C1:10BC:AEF:8000:0:0:0|talk]]) 11:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
+== Season's Greetings ==
+{| style="border:2px ; background-color: #FFF7E6;"
+|rowspan="2" valign="right" | [[File:Winterthur The Adoration of the Magi in the Snow 027 4f ZS Breugel EKP crop.jpg|250px]]
 |rowspan="2" |
-|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
+|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2; vertical-align: left; height: 1.1em;" | '''Season's Greetings'''
 |-
-|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thanks for your work on [[Kriya Yoga school#Etymology]]! [[User:Perception312|Perception312]] ([[User talk:Perception312|talk]]) 14:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
+|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The ''[[Adoration of the Magi in the Snow]]'' (1563) by [[Pieter Bruegel the Elder]] is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 17:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
 |}
-{{yo|Perception312}} thank you, deeply appreciated. It takes a challenge to give the best; you're the challenge. ~~•~
-== Little guidance ==
-Hi josh, you might be busy and i apologise for disturbing you. i am not extremely familiar with all the process in wikipedia and would love guidance from veterans.regarding the topic [[:Purusha sukta]] where i tagged you for review, one editor reverted the edit, violating the policies, pushing blatant pov and even after explaining everything is not ready to understand.it looks like his agenda is set.i dont want to engage in edit war as that editor has a history of engaging people in edit war and then getting them blocked.i dont know how to tackle this. what steps can i take? is there any step i can take?.i have no idea how to even report this behaviour? .any assistance or advice would be valuable. [[User:Cosmotech92|Cosmotech92]] ([[User talk:Cosmotech92|talk]]) 15:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
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-== Vedic literature  ==
+== Clean up  ==
-Hello,
+Hi, could you please help clean up the article [[:Vizhinjam International Seaport Thiruvananthapuram]]? At present, it is written with a promotional tone, and much of the content are original research, and lacks [[WP:TSI|text-source integrity]]. [[Special:Contributions/2409:4073:31C:4337:F9C9:66CB:C27C:510E|2409:4073:31C:4337:F9C9:66CB:C27C:510E]] ([[User talk:2409:4073:31C:4337:F9C9:66CB:C27C:510E|talk]]) 13:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
-When you edited to Upanishads article to say that the Upanishads are the only widely known literature, what did you mean? The Vedas themselves are well known. [[User:Ultraneutral|Ultraneutral]] ([[User talk:Ultraneutral|talk]]) 03:53, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
-:The Upanishads are being read worldwide; the Vedic hymns are not. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] - [[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 05:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+:I took a look; not my cup of tea... PS: I did several Google searches for Ramayanana and mythology, but found no satisfactory sources. Labelling it only as mythology is tok simple, I think. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] - [[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 19:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
-::Yes they are. I've seen the Vedas at 20 used book stores. Plus, you are engaging in original research. The source doesn't say its the only widely known vedic text. [[User:Ultraneutral|Ultraneutral]] ([[User talk:Ultraneutral|talk]]) 09:51, 4 December 2023 (UTC)