Wikipedia:Village pump (technical): Difference between revisions
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{{Village pump page header|1=Technical|2=The '''technical''' section of the [[Wikipedia:Village pump|village pump]] is used to discuss technical issues ''about'' '''Wikipedia'''. Bug reports and feature requests should be made in [[mw:Phabricator|Phabricator]] (see [[mw:How to report a bug|how to report a bug]]). Bugs with [[web application security|security implications]] should be reported differently (see [[mw:Reporting security bugs|how to report security bugs]]). |
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If you want to report a [[JavaScript]] error, please follow [[Wikipedia:Reporting JavaScript errors|this guideline]]. Questions about [[MediaWiki]] in general should be posted at the [[mw:Project:Support desk|MediaWiki support desk]]. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for five days. |
If you want to report a [[JavaScript]] error, please follow [[Wikipedia:Reporting JavaScript errors|this guideline]]. Questions about [[MediaWiki]] in general should be posted at the [[mw:Project:Support desk|MediaWiki support desk]]. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for five days. |
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Please add new questions to the end of the page. The easiest way to add a question is to click the "New post" link, near the top of the page. |
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== VPNgate blocking bot == |
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== Edit conflict-like situation that recreated a draftified article == |
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The other day in working on some articles in [[:CAT:UNCAT]], I came upon [[Mulashidi]]. I added a category and removed the uncatted tag, and there my interaction with the article ended, or so I thought. Then {{U|Liz}} came to my talk page to ask why I had recreated an article that had been draftified to [[Draft:Mulashidi]]. Huh? I looked at the article history and saw to my surprise that I had "created" this article. Extra huh??? Then I looked at the logs, and saw that {{U|SunDawn}}'s draftification and my "creation" of the article happened in the same minute. Apparently I was finding a category at the same time another editor was moving it. I was not, to my recollection, asked if I wanted to create an article that didn't exist. This may be an oddball fluke, but since it happened to me, it could happen to others as well. The system needs some sort of way to handle such things that aren't checking the history to make sure you didn't just accidentally recreate an article that existed before you started editing. Thanks to {{U|Mandarax}} for looking at the situation and suggesting I bring it here. <span style="font-family: Lucida Calligraphy">[[User:LadyofShalott|<span style="color: #442288">Lady</span>]]<span style="color: #22aaaa">of</span>[[User_Talk:LadyofShalott|<span style="color: #cc2288">Shalott</span>]]</span> 13:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Maybe HotCat's API requests are not using proper edit conflict detection such as starttimestamp, baserevid, etc. The code appears to be at [[commons:MediaWiki:Gadget-HotCat.js]]. There doesn't appear to be an active maintainer, the history is an assortment of editors. Next step would probably be to post on one of the HotCat talk pages ([[Wikipedia talk:HotCat]] or [[commons:MediaWiki talk:Gadget-HotCat.js]]). –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 19:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Not just HotCat; something similar has happened to me a few weeks ago when the article was deleted at the same time as I moved it to draft. [[User:Espresso Addict|Espresso Addict]] <small>([[User talk:Espresso Addict|talk]])</small> 23:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sidebar is hiding when a Wikipedia page was last edited and links below it == |
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The Wikipedia Sidebar is now hiding when a Wikipedia page was last edited and the writing and links below it when you scroll down to the bottom of a page with many sidebar links. For example, the "Privacy policy", "About Wikipedia" and "Disclaimers" are also now hidden from view. Someone has recently edited the page layout on Wikipedia for the worse as this was not the case 5 days ago. [[Special:Contributions/92.24.237.212|92.24.237.212]] ([[User talk:92.24.237.212|talk]]) 05:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I can reproduce this with Vector-2022 in Firefox, Edge and Chrome, logged in or out, with or without safemode. Pick a page with a long TOC, e.g. this page. Make sure the TOC is shown in the sidebar and not hidden. The TOC extends to the bottom of the window and covers the left part of the footer. "23, at 06:36." is the only visible part of "This page was last edited on 3 December 2023, at 06:36." The next lines become visible at "Attribution-ShareAlike", "a non-profit organization" and "Contact Wikipedia". Either the sidebar should stop before the footer or the whole footer should move to the right of the sidebar like the content of the wiki page. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 11:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::This is a known issue, and fixed in the next release. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:26, 3 December 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Long tables of contents truncated === |
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For articles/discussion pages with very long tables of contents, such as this one, in vector2022 on Firefox on a Mac, I am getting the table of contents truncated after a certain length. For instance, on this page, as I type this, the table of contents that I see (when I scroll down to the bottom of either the ToC or the actual page) shows the top few pixels of [[#Rotten tomatoes prose template]] (or rather "Rotten tomatoes prose" as the "template" wraps to the next line that I cannot see), and the next heading, [[#The center class]], is completely omitted. I suspect some length calculation gone awry, as it is always near the end of what should be the full table of contents regardless of the number of entries. Is anyone else seeing this? Any ideas what to do to get it fixed? —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 22:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:This is the same issue as [[#Sidebar is hiding when a Wikipedia page was last edited and links below it]]. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 23:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I doubt it. It has nothing to do with how much of the window the TOC rectangle covers or what might be hidden under that rectangle. It is about the objects within the TOC rectangle and how much of them can be seen by scrolling within the rectangle. To put it another way: once it needs to scroll, the TOC rectangle is always the same size (the height of the window). The *contents* of the TOC rectangle (the stuff you can scroll) may be a much larger size. This bug involves some miscalculation of the size of the contents of the TOC rectangle, causing the TOC entries beyond the miscalculated size to be unviewable. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 01:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Right, but the reason you can't see the last item is because it's overflowing the bounds it's supposed to and so under the typically-present bar at the bottom of the page that goes with the expander square on the right hand side. I am pretty sure it's the same issue. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 01:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Maybe. On closer view, the problem is that the TOC rectangle is extending past some bottom margin on the screen. You can tell that it's the TOC rectangle being cut off rather than the contents of the TOC rectangle being cut off because the rounded bottom of the scroll bar is also cut off. Only the left sidebar has this margin; the main window and right sidebar contents extend past it. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 01:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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=== TOC cut off in 2022 skin === |
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In [[Special:Permalink/1188211731]], the section [[Special:Permalink/1188211731#Revoke TPA for temporarily blocked user|#Revoke TPA for temporarily blocked user]] does not appear in the table of contents in the left sidebar. It is section number 58 in this revision. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b>]] ([[User talk:LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0d0">d</span>]][[Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0bf">c̄</span>]]) 00:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Both issues appear to have been fixed. [[User:Nthep|Nthep]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 22:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:It's not fixed. It's still broken for me. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 21:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Hey everyone, do you still see this bug? It should have been fixed as part of the [[#Improvements to styling of Vector 2022|improvements to styling of Vector 2022]]. Thanks, [[User:SGrabarczuk (WMF)|SGrabarczuk (WMF)]] ([[User talk:SGrabarczuk (WMF)|talk]]) 01:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError == |
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<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 16:47, 1 December 2033 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|2017068456}} |
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{{tracked|T352628|resolved}} |
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I got this error when trying to edit an article. I see this has [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_180#Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError|happened before in 2020]]. Looks like someone at [[Wikipedia:Help desk#Database error when trying to edit an article]] has filed a ticket at Phabricator, tracked at [[phab:T352628]]. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 07:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] I encountered the same bug about 10 minutes ago. Bug now, it seems that the this DB bug is resolved. [[User:Hooman Mallahzadeh|Hooman Mallahzadeh]] ([[User talk:Hooman Mallahzadeh|talk]]) 08:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I keep getting this error trying to edit [[Wellington (disambiguation)]]. I'm able to edit other articles. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 12:05, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:: I just got it, and reproduced, trying to do a small edit on [[Handball (disambiguation)]], something's fishy here. |
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::: [880bbfb7-540e-49ff-bd80-5d1f0880e872] 2023-12-04 13:11:04: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" |
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:: --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 13:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::My new attempts there also get: |
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:::To avoid creating high replication lag, this transaction was aborted because the write duration (3.465854883194) exceeded the 3 second limit. If you are changing many items at once, try doing multiple smaller operations instead. |
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:::[5b6f2722-25fb-4736-a8a1-061b5bc2d481] 2023-12-04 14:31:18: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBTransactionSizeError" |
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:::--[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 14:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::JFTR that edit went through in the meantime. And Phabricator indicates the developers are figuring it out. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 17:05, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I also had errors on two edits in the last couple of hours. I didn't record the first but the second was <code>[29eec93d-299b-4bdf-89d1-88caca3466b5] 2023-12-04 14:13:41: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBTransactionSizeError"</code> on {{diff|Breach_of_contract|prev|1188296608|this edit}}. Both worked after I used the browser's Back button and clicked Publish again. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 14:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Still getting an error on this. I was getting something about a transaction being too large and taking too long (>3 sec) for a couple attempts. This attempt I got<syntaxhighlight lang="text">A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. |
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[4d773f04-424e-4f64-af0f-f259aa808ecd] 2023-12-04 14:44:28: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"</syntaxhighlight> |
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:Attempts to edit my user sandbox page were successful. |
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:[[User:Kimen8|Kimen8]] ([[User talk:Kimen8|talk]]) 14:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I've been getting this error this morning too: {{tq|To avoid creating high replication lag, this transaction was aborted because the write duration (15.307519674301) exceeded the 3 second limit. If you are changing many items at once, try doing multiple smaller operations instead. [1cd8ddfe-f560-4300-b162-1d4d0448423c] 2023-12-04 16:19:03: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBTransactionSizeError"}} These aren't large changes I'm attempting. I have gotten a few edits through, but it's hit or miss. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::It seems to be an issue with DB queries taking too long, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T352628#9379558 for more information <span style="border: 1px solid #0000FF ;color:#0000FF; padding:0px 7px;border-radius:10px"><b>[[User:NightWolf1223|NW1223]]<[[User talk:NightWolf1223|Howl at me]]•[[Special:Contributions/NightWolf1223|My hunts]]></b></span> 16:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Got it when trying to edit [[Legislative Assembly of Costa Rica]], but when I tried a second time, the edit went through fine. [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 17:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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I got this type of error just now trying to edit [[Luzerne County, Pennsylvania]]. At least now I know what the problem is. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 16:46, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Database error === |
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I'm trying to revert [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2007_Formula_One_World_Championship&diff=1187940706&oldid=1187411689 this] unsourced/[[WP:CRYSTAL]] edit to [[2007 Formula One World Championship]], but I keep getting error messages of the form: |
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<pre>A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. |
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[38a2ed1b-239f-4448-841c-e65ec46331ef] 2023-12-04 08:28:23: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"</pre> |
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I've tried a couple of different edit summaries, and I'm able to edit other articles. Could someone else please try reverting the edit? Thanks. [[User:DH85868993|DH85868993]] ([[User talk:DH85868993|talk]]) 08:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I tried to revert it and also got a DBQueryError. It looks like there is already a ticket filed on Phabricator; see [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError]]. [[User:Malerisch|Malerisch]] ([[User talk:Malerisch|talk]]) 08:46, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Am having the same problem at [[First Mithridatic War]] and another editor has reported similar problems at [[WP:Teahouse]] - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 11:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Have now edited [[First Mithridatic War]] - problem may be cleared/clearing? - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 12:46, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Me as well at [[Vista, California]] ... [ab2894fb-78ff-4187-a212-713464e91635] 2023-12-04 12:22:58: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError". [[User:Magnolia677|Magnolia677]] ([[User talk:Magnolia677|talk]]) 12:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::: Same here, at [[Deer Park, New York]]: {{tq|[a4dc9654-fbed-48be-8eb3-a597446272e9] 2023-12-04 12:32:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"}} [[User:WikiDan61|<span style="color: green;">WikiDan61</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 12:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::: And the same here (in the UK), from about 2 hours ago, editing [[Caligula]], using MacBook. Sometimes it lets me edit but not save. Other times, it works fine but not for long. There's no pattern to it that I can discern. My Watchlist responds to changes in all other articles. [[User:Haploidavey|Haploidavey]] ([[User talk:Haploidavey|talk]]) 12:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC) Just tried a test edit, and was treated to the following: |
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:I am getting this with many different articles. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 13:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::: Database error |
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To avoid creating high replication lag, this transaction was aborted because the write duration (5.7858679294586) exceeded the 3 second limit. If you are changing many items at once, try doing multiple smaller operations instead. |
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[b08b554e-cf70-4cd8-8291-03dd2733d85a] 2023-12-04 13:01:46: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBTransactionSizeError" |
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[[User:Haploidavey|Haploidavey]] ([[User talk:Haploidavey|talk]]) 13:08, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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This is the kind I'm getting, and lots of them: |
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{{tqb|Database error<br /> |
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A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software.<br /> |
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[74e1f80b-d290-4d16-836e-3c887005d683] 2023-12-04 14:01:55: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"}} |
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<span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 14:08, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Getting the same issue with the article [[Martin Artyukh]]. {{code|[85a67d40-833b-409f-a662-ba0486de9b09] 2023-12-04 15:51:16: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"}} --[[User:BlameRuiner|BlameRuiner]] ([[User talk:BlameRuiner|talk]]) 15:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Yup, I'm getting the same error across multiple articles - sometimes takes multiple attempts to get a change to save. [[User:Parsecboy|Parsecboy]] ([[User talk:Parsecboy|talk]]) 16:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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===Recovering from it?=== |
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When this error hits me, if I go "back" in the browser to get back to the text I was working on, all my changes are gone. This is actually weird behavior in Chrome. E.g., if I instead get an edit-conflict page, I can "Back" in the browser freely. But when this DB error happens, it's like it somehow messes up the page cache. Does anyone know of a way to recover the text that was being worked on? I have an article that did a whole lot of cleanup work in (probably a good half hour of it) and don't want to lose all that work if I can help it. I'm still sitting on the DB error page on that one. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 14:08, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Update: I took a gamble, and it turns out that clicking the Reload button worked (caveats: in Chrome, and without triggering another DB error; I have no idea what another browser would do, or what would happen if the DB error had recurred, and it might, since in trying to make a typo fix at another page I had to try five times, though each time I did it as a manual edit, not a reload). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 14:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:FWIW in my Firefox, the back button got me back into the previous state, with the content and summary fields intact, so I can keep retrying trivially. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 14:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I'm in Microsoft Edge, and the back button gets me to the state pre-submission, with edits and summary in place. Though I am now taking a copy of the text before clicking Publish. [[User:Tacyarg|Tacyarg]] ([[User talk:Tacyarg|talk]]) 14:55, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I'm using Chrome on a chromebook and if I hit the Back button, I get the original article state from when I hit edit (i.e., I lost my changes and edit summary). I'm just going to wait until it seems to be resolved before making any more edits. [[User:Kimen8|Kimen8]] ([[User talk:Kimen8|talk]]) 14:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Fixed? === |
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[[phab:T352628]] claims the issue is fixed. I went back to retry my edit at [[Deer Park, New York]] and was successful. [[User:WikiDan61|<span style="color: green;">WikiDan61</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 18:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:It is indeed fixed. <span style="border: 1px solid #0000FF ;color:#0000FF; padding:0px 7px;border-radius:10px"><b>[[User:NightWolf1223|NW1223]]<[[User talk:NightWolf1223|Howl at me]]•[[Special:Contributions/NightWolf1223|My hunts]]></b></span> 18:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Yep, fixed now. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 18:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Markup that derives the file page for a TimedText page == |
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{{tracked|T352955}} |
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While cleaning up [[Wikipedia:Database reports/Timed Text without a corresponding File]], I keep tripping over the fact that in order to check that a TimedText page is deletable, I need to edit the URL to get from e.g [[TimedText:Dua Lipa Blow Your Mind (Mwah) sample.ogg.en.srt]] to [[:File:Dua Lipa Blow Your Mind (Mwah) sample.ogg]]. Is there a template, parser function or whatever that can display such a link automatically? The titleparts one keeps the ".en.srt" bit in, making it useless. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 17:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I wonder if [[MediaWiki:timedmedia-timedtext-title-edit-subtitles]] can be edited so the "File:..." part in the top heading for an srt page is a wikilink which turns red if the file doesn't exist. If not, perhaps the responsible code in the TMH extension should be modified to link it. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 17:49, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Well, maybe we can add a link, but for that we first need to know how to strip the ".en.srt" (and equivalent) bits out. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 07:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::<code>$2</code> is already the file name with that part stripped. My suggestion is simply to turn it into a wikilink, not add extra text. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 07:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:There is some javascript for that at [[c:Commons:Village pump/Technical#Gadget to jump from timedtext back to audio/video file]]. Another option is to open the player and click the i with an circle, that will also direct you to the file page. [[User:Snævar|Snævar]] ([[User talk:Snævar|talk]]) 19:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::That works for TT pages attached to working files, not for the scenario where the file was deleted or moved. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 07:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Or you just ctrl click the video and the browser opens the file page in a new tab (just like any image). Or right click and choose "open in new window/tab". And if there is no video found, it should not display a video in the page and you would get "There is no video associated with the current subtitle page." next to the subtitle content. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Does it also display "There is no video associated with the current subtitle page." when the video exists as a redirect, or is on Commons? Because in these cases measures other than deletion would be needed. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 09:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::For TT pages that refer to Commons repos, It hides their contents and says: "You can view the description page for this file on Wikimedia Commons (production)" ([https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/TimedText:Folgers.ogv.nl.srt example]). For redirects it says "There is no video associated with the current subtitle page" ([https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/TimedText:Folgers2.ogv.nl.srt example]). —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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[[MediaWiki:timedmedia-timedtext-title-edit-subtitles]] is a page heading which should not contain anything else (rather large letters for that, BTW). |
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* [[MediaWiki:editnotice-710]] might provide guidance. |
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* You could grab the TimedText page title and extract the expected File: by [[Template:str rep]] pattern. |
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* If desired, an <code><nowiki>{{#ifexist:}}</nowiki></code> for the related File: could issue a related warning for everybody, otherwise provide a link to the expected File: (perhaps always as requested by initiating this section). |
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* [[TimedText:Seven (sample).mp3.pt.srt]] is not <code>.en.</code> but should be covered as well. Perhaps a note on wrong language. |
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Greetings --[[User:PerfektesChaos|PerfektesChaos]] ([[User talk:PerfektesChaos|talk]]) 13:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, that last point is the problem - I need a code that can strip the text after the second-to-last dot. Str rep does not do that, it needs to be told "pt" or whatever. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 15:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::If you #invoke [[Module:String#replace]] with {{para|plain|false}}, that may do the job. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 16:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::For example, "<code><nowiki>{{#invoke:String|replace|TimedText:Dua Lipa Blow Your Mind (Mwah) sample.ogg.en.srt|^TimedText:(.*)%.%w+%.%w+$|File:%1|1|plain=false}}</nowiki></code>" produces "{{#invoke:String|replace|TimedText:Dua Lipa Blow Your Mind (Mwah) sample.ogg.en.srt|^TimedText:(.*)%.%w+%.%w+$|File:%1|1|plain=false}}". [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 16:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::OK, that works better. To clarify, I am thinking to put <code><nowiki>{{#ifexist:{{#invoke:String|replace|{{FULLPAGENAME}}|^TimedText:(.*)%.%w+%.%w+$|File:%1|1|plain=false}}|This timed text is attached to a redirect.|There is no video associated with the current subtitle page.}}</nowiki></code> on [[MediaWiki:Timedmedia-subtitle-no-video]] so that we can tell the difference. Or would a software patch to create a new message for TimedText attached to redirects make more sense? [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 16:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Yes, in the long run the ''TimedText:*.srt'' pages should be equipped with something like ''MediaWiki:timedmedia-timedtext-intro'' or whatever (empty by default). |
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* I did suggest [[MediaWiki:editnotice-710]] as first aid for now, since no other system message is transcluded today. |
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* A phabricator proposal might work in some weeks or years. |
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Enjoy --[[User:PerfektesChaos|PerfektesChaos]] ([[User talk:PerfektesChaos|talk]]) 20:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:If the phabricator proposal is simple enough that it doesn't take me hours to verify that we won't break anything, wrt to performance or 3rd party users, i can easily fix them. I'm essentially the only person maintaining TMH next to brion so. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 08:33, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::That's weird - when I make a test redirect on [[:File:Test.mp3]] and then create [[:TimedText:Test.mp3.en.srt]], the latter simply attaches the TimedText to the redirect target. I don't think it did the latter yesterday. Once I break the redirect however [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=File:Test.mp3&diff=prev&oldid=1188579764 in this edit] it displays "There is no video associated with the current subtitle page." Now I dunno anymore if splitting the MW messages is warranted or trivial (also, would that be one or two Phab tasks?) [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 08:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Odd variation == |
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Why does {{tlx|NUMBEROFARTICLES}} yield different counts when I look at [[main page]], [[WP:VA3]] and [[WP:VA5]].-[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 20:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:The count (as well as most wiki content) is cached for performance reasons. You can refresh it by [[WP:PURGE|purging]]. Articles are created pretty quickly over here on enwiki, so the counts will likely always be a little bit off depending on when the page cache was last purged. [[Special:Statistics]] or using [[mw:API:Siteinfo]] should be more exact. <span style="font-family:sans-serif">— <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 20:31, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Thx. {{resolved}}-[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 05:58, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Background colour in table == |
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(i) Does anyone know how you introduce colour to a table background, as [[Los Angeles Times Book Prize for Biography|here]]? |
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(ii) Do people think it's effective? (I do—perhaps a ''slightly'' paler yellow, though.) [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 03:12, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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: {{re|Tony1}} the table has this: <nowiki>-style="background:LemonChiffon; color:black"</nowiki> is that what you're asking? [[WP:COLOR]] and [[MOS:COLORS]] have guidance on the use of colors. [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 03:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Thank you very much, Rudolf.[[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 04:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Infobox deletion discussion notice == |
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I’ve noticed that, on the mobile website - for articles that transclude {{t|Infobox gender and sexual identity}} - the notice that states {{tq|‹ The template [X] is being considered for deletion ›}} is displayed at the top of the page (and clashes with the opening sentence), rather than on top of the infobox itself (as I assume it should be doing). As an example, see [[:File:Wikipedia screenshot (Transgender) - infobox deletion discussion display bug.jpeg|this screenshot]] of the [[Transgender]] article. |
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I’m assuming that this is something that may (hopefully!) be able to be fixed by tweaking {{t|Template for discussion/dated}}, however, I’d have no idea where to start figuring it out myself! Is anyone aware if there’s any way to force the deletion discussion notice to stick to the top of the infobox on mobile web? |
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Best, <sup style="letter-spacing:-.1em;color:#737373;font-family:monospace">user:</sup>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#ff8352">'''A smart kitten'''</span>]][[User talk:A smart kitten|<sub style="color:#b842b8;font-family:monospace">''meow''</sub>]] 10:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:The infobox has <code>class="infobox"</code> and is therefore moved down in mobile by [[:mw:Reading/Web/Projects/Lead Paragraph Move]]. The deletion tag would also move in mobile if it had the <code>infobox</code> class but this adds unwanted formatting. Is there another way to make mobile move it? [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 12:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] I went ahead and added the <code>nomobile</code> class for now, feel free to swap it out if someone comes up with a better solution. If there ''isn't'' a better solution, we might want to add <code>nomobile</code> to the sidebar option at [[Template:Template for discussion/dated]]. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 21:58, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] One problem with adding {{code|nomobile}} to [[Template:Template for discussion/dated]] would be that it would mean people on mobile viewing pages that transclude templates at TfD ''wouldn’t be notified'' of the ongoing deletion discussion - and thus some of those who may be affected by a template’s deletion wouldn’t know to take part. Best, <sup style="letter-spacing:-.1em;color:#737373;font-family:monospace">user:</sup>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#ff8352">'''A smart kitten'''</span>]][[User talk:A smart kitten|<sub style="color:#b842b8;font-family:monospace">''meow''</sub>]] 10:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:A smart kitten|A smart kitten]] Agreed, it's a stopgap at best, but it's better than implying that the entire transcluding page is going to be deleted. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 18:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Ahecht only added nomobile to the deletion tag on {{tl|Infobox gender and sexual identity}}. I think infobox templates are rarely nominated. We could make a new class which tries to counteract the unwanted sideeffects of <code>infobox</code> but maybe somebody can find a cleaner way to move a tag along with an infobox in mobile. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 16:41, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::This is the first time in ever that I can think of where a TFD/M notice has been complained about in the context of this problem (and no, it has been more rather than less common to nominate infoboxes for TFM). I think documenting the weird placement on mobile on the relevant template page is sufficient. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 18:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Pale Moon not showing wikipedia page == |
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Pale Moon v32.5.1 (64-bit) |
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Mac OS X 10.8 |
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Wikipedia not showing text / images; sometimes it shows sidebar only, then text vanishes when scrolling. [[Special:Contributions/83.60.69.61|83.60.69.61]] ([[User talk:83.60.69.61|talk]]) 13:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Pale Moon is not a supported browser and the 11 year old Mac OS 10.8 is not easy to test against either, so it is really difficult to assist with debugging a problem like this. Have you tried the [http://forum.palemoon.org Pale Moon support forums] ? These are probably more likely to have experts who can figure out why specific pages won't work in your combination. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Add an "are you sure?" pop-up when you log out == |
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Several times, I have accidentally logged out while trying to view my contributions page. I think that when you press Log Out, there should be a pop-up where you confirm that you actually want to log out and did not just press the button accidentally. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 14:10, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] you could try or adapt one of these userscripts: [[User:Fred Gandt/confirmLogout.js]], [[User:Guywan/Scripts/ConfirmLogout]]. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:14, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I don't actually know how to use those. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 14:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Hey {{u|QuicoleJR}}, if you edit [[Special:MyPage/common.js|this file]] and add the following: |
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:::<syntaxhighlight lang="javascript"> |
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mw.loader.load('//en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Fred_Gandt/confirmLogout.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript'); // Backlink: [[User:Fred_Gandt/confirmLogout.js]] |
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</syntaxhighlight> |
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:::You should then be prompted to confirm logging out {{p}} — [[User:TheresNoTime|TheresNoTime]] ([[User talk:TheresNoTime|talk]] • they/them) 15:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I pasted the code in but it didn't work. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 15:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::{{ping|QuicoleJR}} Fred Gandt's script didn't work for me either, but Guywan's did. Paste <code><nowiki>mw.loader.getScript("/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User:Guywan/Scripts/ConfirmLogout.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript"); // Backlink: [[User:Guywan/Scripts/ConfirmLogout.js]]</nowiki></code> into your common.js, and it should work. [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::That did not work for me either. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 22:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:You can try accessing your My Contributions page using a hotkey. In Chrome you can use Alt-Y or Alt-Shift-Y, I think. hotkeys vary by browser and operating system, but the one for My Contributions will contain the letter Y. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 14:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Novem Linguae}} Thank you for the suggestion, but I edit on a mobile device, so that will not work for me. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 14:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Are you using a browser (MinervaNeue skin), Wikipedia iOS app, or Wikipedia Android app? –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 14:47, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Browser, but using Vector 2022 skin. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 15:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Hidden ToC dis-appeares on it's own during scrolling == |
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{{tracked|T352930}} |
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{{tracked|T352432}} |
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If, on my user page ( [[user:Steue|Steue]] ) , |
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* I have the Table of Content ( ToC ) ''hidden'', and |
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* do click into this little field to the left of my user name, |
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* the ToC does open downwards. |
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* Then I move my mouse pointer into this ToC and |
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* then I start scrolling down ( with a side sweep on my touch pad ) within this ToC, which means:<br>the box with the ToC ( including the whole page i.e. what is ''out''-side of the ToC ) is moving up-wards. - So far, so good. |
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* But when a few upper parts of my 4th main section have appeared, |
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* the whole ToC ''disappears'' - and ''this'' is ''not'' what I expect and want. |
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I am seeking consensus on a proposal to develop and deploy a bot to help block VPNgate IP addresses used by a particular [[WP:LTA]]. For [[WP:DENY]]/[[WP:BEANS]] reasons, I cannot provide full details, but users familiar with the LTA in question will understand the context. |
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The result is:<br> |
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The only way I can reach the lower sections of my ToC is by moving the ToC to the left---besides scrolling down the ''actual content''. |
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=== Background === |
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What I want:<br> |
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I have tested several VPNgate IPs, and very few of them are currently blocked. According to Wikipedia's policy on open proxies and VPNs (per [[WP:NOP]]), these should be blocked. Given the volume of VPNgate IPs, I propose using a bot to automate this process. |
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Once the Table of Content is dropped down, it should be scrollable down to the last line, and not dis-appear mid-way of scrolling. |
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This is building off [[WP:BOTREQUESTS#VPNGate|this discussion]] on [[WP:BOTREQUESTS]]. |
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[[User:Steue #Ping|Ping]] welcome, [[User:Steue|Steue]] ([[User talk:Steue|talk]]) 21:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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I am posting here to gauge consensus needed for a [[WP:BRFA]]. |
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:@[[User:Steue|Steue]] tried to duplicate, here is what I saw - is this what you see? If you scroll down enough so that the top of the collapsed TOC scrolls off the page, it moves (collapsed) to the header, to the left the of page title which also moves there. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 21:20, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Proposal === |
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::@ [[user:xaosflux|xaosflux]] |
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I propose a bot to automate blocking these VPNgate IPs using the following steps: |
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::Exactly: If the top of the ''open'' ToC goes over the top, the ToC collapses. |
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:: |
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:: My system: (I confess) Windows 8.1 and Firefox (as late as possible) 115.5.0esr (64-bit); mozilla-win-eol-esr115 - 1.0 . |
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:: [[User:Steue|Steue]] ([[User talk:Steue|talk]]) 21:29, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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# The bot will use [https://www.vpngate.net/enwiki/api/iphone/ this list] provided by VPNgate, which contains OpenVPN configuration files in Base64 format. The provided "IP" value is only the one that your computer uses to talk to the VPN (and sometimes wrong), not the one used for the VPN to talk to Wikipedia/external internet - this requires testing to uncover. |
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:::{{re|Steue}} I've opened bug [[phab:T352930]] on this. Please feel free to add additional information there, or subscribe to it for updates. This is not a condition that is happening only here on the English Wikipedia, but one that would need to be resolved in the software. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 23:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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# The bot will iterate through each config file and use OpenVPN to test if it can connect. If successful, it will then use the VPN to send a request to [https://www.ipify.org/ this WhatIsMyIPAddress API] to determine the real-world IP address used by each VPN to connect to Wikipedia. This is sometimes the same as the IP used to talk to the VPN - but sometimes completely different, see the demo edit I did using VPNgate on the Bot Requests discussion linked above and I also did one as a reply to this post. Also, testing is needed before blanket blocking because VPNgate claim to fill the list with fake IPs to prevent it from being used for blocking, again see the BR discussion. |
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'''Blocking or Reporting''': |
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::::@[[user:Xaosflux|xaosflux]]: Thanks for the info and especially the task to Phab, because I don't have an e-mail address, so I can't register to Phab. |
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* If the bot is approved as an admin bot, it will immediately block the identified IPs or modify block settings to disable TPA (see Yamla's recent ANI discussion per the necessity for this) and enable auto block. |
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:::: [[User:Steue|Steue]] ([[User talk:Steue|talk]]) 00:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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* If the bot is not approved to run as an admin bot, it will add the IPs to an interface-protected JSON file in its userspace for a bot operated by an admin to actually do the blocking. |
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*{{ping|Steue}} looks like this is a duplicate report of [[phab:T352432]]; can you see if that page looks right to you when using upcoming [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Steue?useskin=vector-2022&vectorzebradesign=1 Zebra 1]? — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 00:27, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Additional Information === |
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== Hidden templates creating whitespace == |
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* I have already developed and tested this bot locally using Pywikibot. I have tested it on a local MediaWiki install and it successfully prevents all VPNgate users from editing (should they not be IP block exempt). |
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* I’m posting here to gauge broader community consensus beyond the original [[WP:BOTREQUESTS]] discussion. |
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=== Poll Options === |
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On the page [[Duloxetine]], three sequential "Use..." templates seem to create a big whitespace gap/line breaks after the Distinguish hatnote: |
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* '''Oppose''': Object to the bot proposal. Feel free to explain why. |
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*[[Template:Use dmy dates]] |
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* '''Support''' options: |
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*[[Template:Use vanc name-list-style]] |
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# '''Admin Bot (admin given code)''': An admin will run the bot, and I will provide the code for them to run, as well as desired environment setup etc. and will need to send any code changes or packages updates to them to perform. ''Admin needs to be quite technically competent.'' |
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*[[Template:Use PMID reference names]] |
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# '''Admin Bot (admin gives me token)''': An admin provides me with the bot token (scoped per Anomie below) of a newly created account only for this purpose, allowing me to run the code under myself on Toolforge and fully manage environment setup (needs install and config of multiple python and brew packages not needed for standard pywikibot) as well as instantly deploy any needed code changes or dependency updates without bottlenecks. ''Admin only needs to know how to use Wikipedia UI and navigate to [[Special:BotToken]], check some boxes, and then submit.'' |
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Removal of any one of them seems to remove this, perhaps there is an extra line break in one of them? There is also a hidden section name before the lead paragraph starts if that might complicate things. Could also be related to paragraph breaks seemingly having gotten bigger sometime last month? [[User:93|9<sup>3</sup>]] ([[User talk:93|talk]]) 04:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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# <s>'''Admin Bot (I run it)''': For this specific case I am permitted to run my own admin bot.</s> Withdrawn per Rchard2scout and WMF <code>viewdeleted</code> policy. |
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# <s>'''Bot without Admin Privileges''': The bot will report IPs for potential blocking without admin privileges. ''Not recommended per large volume.''</s> Withdrawn per 98 IPs/hour volume, too much for a human admin. |
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# '''Non-admin bot v2 (<u>preferred by me</u>)''': My bot, [[User:MolecularBot]] is '''not''' an admin bot. It can, however, add IP addresses that it finds are the egress of open VPNgate proxies to [[User:MolecularBot/IP HitList.json]] (editable only by the bot and [[WP:PLIERS]]/interface admins). This means I can run the code for it and manage the complex environment. An admin's bot will be running the uncomplicated code (doesn't require the complex environment and OpenVPN setup for this bot) to just monitor that page for changes and block any IPs added. |
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=== Poll === |
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:There is nothing to be done about this, one too many templates in a row, even empty will do this. The best you can do is pick one and move it up a line. |
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* <s>'''Oppose''' for now. From reading that discussion, it looks like the IPs available through the API are only the "ingress" IPs, which is what you connect to on their side when using the VPN (and even then, it seems like the VPN client might sometimes use another IP instead?). If there's actually a publicly available list of outgoing IPs available, I'd be very surprised. From an operational standpoint, those IPs don't need to be public, and if they are, that's a serious error on their side. If we do somehow get our hands on a list, I'd be in favour of '''option 1'''. There's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --[[User:Rchard2scout|rchard2scout]] ([[User talk:Rchard2scout|talk]]) 08:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</s> |
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:I question the value of at least one of those templates, and probably a second of them... [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 04:43, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Hi {{u|rchard2scout}}, I think you misunderstand the bot. The bot connects to each "ingress" IP and then finds out the "egress" IP that it uses by sending a request to a "what is my IP address API" (not associated with VPNGate in any way), then blocking the egress. This fully disables VPNgate on my local instance of MediaWiki. Thus, a list of egress IPs are not required, because it makes it own by connecting to each of the ingress ones and sending a request. I apologize if my documentation wasn't clear. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 08:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:If one or all of these templates is edited to output a {{tag|nowiki|s}} tag, then the generated lines, after template expansion, will no longer be completely blank, and the parser will no longer see consecutive blank lines. This removes the white space. Tested by previewing [[User:John of Reading/X3]] while editing [[Template:Use vanc name-list-style]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 08:16, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Noting that I currently do have a complete list of "egress" IPs from my local run of the bot, so should I take your vote as a '''support''' of option 1 like you stated? Thank you. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 08:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Oops, you're right, I somehow missed this. Hadn't had my first coffee yet ;). Striking, adding new vote. |
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*::That's so fine, my brain is a little laggy in the early morning as well! My technical/documentation writing probably needs some work as well, it's not my best skill (anyone please feel free to edit this post and make it clearer, if it's wrong I'll just fix it). Thank you for your time in reviewing this even though it's still the early morning where you are! :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 09:38, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* '''Support option 1'''. Options 2 and 3 are probably incompatible with our local and WMF policies, because an admin bot can do anything an admin can do, and you haven't gone through RfA, so you're not allowed access to rights like {{mono|viewdeleted}}. Or (@ anyone who know this) are OAuth permissions granular enough that an admin can generate a token that allows a bot access to {{mono|block}} but not to other permissions? In any case, I think option 1 is the easiest and safest way, there's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --[[User:Rchard2scout|rchard2scout]] ([[User talk:Rchard2scout|talk]]) 08:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*: Hi {{u|Rchard2scout}}, thank you for your new comment and feedback. I hope your morning is going well! Ah yes <code>viewdeleted</code>, silly me to forget about that (I have the opposite problem as you before, it is far too late at night where I live!), I do recall it from someone else's declined proposal of admin sortion, I've struck Option 3 now per WMF legal policy. Re OAuth permissions, I know from using Huggle that when you create a bot token there's a very fine grained list of checkboxed for you to tick, and "block" is in fact one of them, so it is that granular as to avoid all other admin perms, I've expanded Option #2 above to clarify this and more circumstances. I do believe this would be my preferred option, per the reasons I've placed in my expansion, but are really happy with anything as long as we can deal with this LTA. Anyway, enjoy your morning! [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 11:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*: There's no grant allowing <code>block</code> but no other permissions. The minimum additional admin permissions would be <code>block</code>, <code>blockemail</code>, <code>unreviewedpages</code>, and <code>unwatchedpages</code>. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 12:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*: '''Support option 5''' as well, and that doesn't even need a BRFA or an RFC. We do then need consensus for the adminbot part of that proposal, so perhaps this discussion can focus on that. --[[User:Rchard2scout|rchard2scout]] ([[User talk:Rchard2scout|talk]]) 10:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Option 1'''. I believe this is the only option allowed under policy. Admins need to run admin bots. This RFC is a bit complicated. Usually an RFC of this type would just get consensus for the task ("Is there consensus to run a bot that blocks VPNGate IP addresses?"), with implementation details to be worked out later. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 12:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:'''Option 5''' is fine if the bot doesn't need to do any blocking and is just keeping a list up-to-date. Don't even need this RFC or a BRFA if you stick the page in your userspace ([[WP:EXEMPTBOT]]). –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 09:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*I'd like to suggest an alternative approach: Write a bot or Toolforge tool that generates a data feed of IP addresses, starting with VPN Gate egress IP addresses, perhaps including the first seen timestamp and last seen timestamp for each egress. The blocking and unblocking portion of the process is relatively simple and a number of administrators could write, maintain, and run a bot that does that. (I suspect most administrators that run bots would prefer to write their own code to do that.) [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] ([[User talk:Daniel Quinlan|talk]]) 23:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Well, I started writing this suggestion before option 5 was added. Since it looks like this is basically the same as that option, put me down as being in favor of '''Option 5'''. [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] ([[User talk:Daniel Quinlan|talk]]) 23:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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** Hahaha, great minds think alike I guess! Thank you for your input. :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* Courtesy ping for {{u|Rchard2scout}} and {{u|Novem Linguae}} notifying them of the new preferred option 5 above, which I believe makes everything easier for both myself and the admin who wishes to help me (I'll leave a note on AN asking nicely once BRFA passes for MolecularBot). Also, {{u|Skynxnex}}, you expressed support for option 5 below, did you mean to format that as a support !vote in this section (my apologies for the confusing layout of everything here). Thank you very much to everyone for your time in reviewing this proposal and leaving very helpful feedback. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:I don't feel like I've thought about the different aspects to do a bolded !vote yet. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 15:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::That's so fine, thank you anyway for your feedback! :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 23:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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=== Discussion === |
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== Redlinked assessment categories, again == |
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*Hey, it's me, [[User:MolecularPilot]] on VPNgate. This VPN is listed as 112.187.104.70 on VPNgate cause that's what my PC talks to. But, this VPN when talking to Wikipedia, uses 121.179.23.53 as shown which is <u>completely different</u> and '''not listed anywhere on VPNgate''', showing the need for actually testing the VPNs and figuring out the output IPs are my bot does. Can this IP please be [[WP:OPP]] blocked? [[Special:Contributions/121.179.23.53|121.179.23.53]] ([[User talk:121.179.23.53|talk]]) 06:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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**Can confirm this is me! :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 06:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* There is a relevant Phabricator ticket: {{phab|T380917}}. – [[User:DreamRimmer|<span style="color:black">'''DreamRimmer'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:DreamRimmer|'''talk''']])</small> 12:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* I don't think non-admins can run admin bots. Perhaps you would like to publicly post your source code, then ask an admin to run it? cc {{u|Daniel Quinlan}}. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 12:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* I don't think blocking a single VPN provider will have the effect people want it to have. It's easy for a disruptive editor to switch VPNs. This is really a problem that needs to be solved by WMF. [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] ([[User talk:Daniel Quinlan|talk]]) 15:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Hi {{u|Daniel Quinlan}}, I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the post but this is designed to work with existing WMF proposals that are being worked on. Both {{phab|T380917}} and {{phab|T354599}} block/give higher edit filter scrutiny based on existing lists of "bad" IPs, this is the same as the old ST47ProxyBot (which actually does scanning but doesn't monitor "egress" IPs, it only attempts to connect to the "ingress" and then blocks it if successfully). This is great for a wide variety of proxy services because ingress/egress is the same, but for modern, more advanced services like VPNgate (and perhaps some services that because a problem for us in future) the ingress IP address is often '''not the same''' as the one used to edit Wikipedia, and so requires this solution (this bot). I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Wikipedia, and by blocking it this significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks. This also creates the infrastructure for easily blocking any future VPN services that use different ingress/egress IPs - the bot can be easily expanded to use new lists. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 21:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*What is the actual expected volume per day of new IPs to block? It looks like the current list has 98 ingress IPs (if I'm understanding the configuration blocks correctly). I'll also say I have pretty strong concerns about sharing "personal" tokens of any kind between users, particularly admin permission ones with non-admins. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 19:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:The list available through [https://www.vpngate.net/enwiki/api/iphone/ this API] frequently rotates. It only provides 98 ingress IPs at a time, as you stated and refetching the list without [some duration of time, from my estimates it's around '''1 hour'''] passing returns the same 98 IPs. After 1 hour (estimated) passes, a new 98 IPs are randomly selected to be provided to all users - but these may include some of the same IPs as before because they are picked by random selection from the whole list of 6057 (not available to the public), this has happened a couple times during my data gathering. Therefore re volume per hour, the ''maximum'' number of IPs to be blocked is '''98''', but it could be less due to already blocked IPs being included in that given hour's sample of 98, I hope this makes sense if there's anything that needs clarifying please don't hesitate to ask. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 21:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::Re "personal" tokens it's actually not a "personal" token to the admin's account, it would be (in theory) a token to an adminbot account with the only things it can be used for being those helpfully specified by Anomie above. However, regardless I see the concerns so I've added a proposal 5 which hopefully is a decent compromise above and ensures that I don't have access to any admin perms/tokens, but that there aren't any bottlenecks and that admins don't need to setup a complex running environment. Thank you for your time in commenting, {{u|Skynxnex}}. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 22:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::I see bot tokens as fairly similar to personal tokens since bots are associated with an operator. I think proposal 5 has promise. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 23:08, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:VPN Gate claims they have about 6,000 servers which is fairly close to my own estimate of how many IPs they are using. If we block each IP for six months, we'd end up averaging about 33 blocks per day. There would be a pretty large influx at the start, but I would want to spread that out over at least several weeks to avoid flooding the block log as badly as ST47ProxyBot did. [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] ([[User talk:Daniel Quinlan|talk]]) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::It's worth noting that an unknown amount of 'servers' are user computers that people have volunteered cpu time for (this information is somewhere on the website), so, like we see often with IP users, the IP that each server uses can and likely will change with time. This doesn't mean that an effort like this bot won't help, of course, but it's unknown how effective (as a percentage) it would be with just 33 blocks a day. – [[Special:Contributions/2804:F14:809E:BA01:D0BD:CD6F:7C33:D1A2|2804:F1...33:D1A2]] ([[Special:Contribs/2804:F14::/32|::/32]]) ([[User talk:2804:F14:809E:BA01:D0BD:CD6F:7C33:D1A2|talk]]) 23:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::33 blocks per day is a rough estimate, not a limit. Certainly there will be some delay when adding entries to any list generated as proposed above so the block rate will never reach 100%, but the egress IPs don't seem to change that much over time based on what I've seen. [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] ([[User talk:Daniel Quinlan|talk]]) 00:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::So, I'm posting this anonymously through VPNGate because I don't want people to start suspecting me of things just because I admit to having used a VPN service some others are abusing to make disruptive edits here. Due to its strong base in Japan, I've used VPNGate many times in order to shop at Japanese web stores that block purchases from outside Japan (they typically don't want to offer international support and see this as the easiest solution for avoiding that), and I know a number of other people who've used it for similar reasons (also for Korea, which often has even more hosts available than Japan).<br> |
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*:::In any case, while I've personally never enabled this on my PC, I can confirm what IP 2804: said: there's definitely a swarm of short-term volunteer IPs associated with this service who aren't part of VPNGate proper. The overlap between such people and good faith Wikipedia editors may not be large, but it's unlikely to be zero. Unless you have a good mechanism to avoid excessively punishing such users for popping up on your list for the short period of time they themselves use the VPN, maybe it's better to wait for and official WMF solution, which (based on the phabs) seems to intend to take "IP reputation" into account and would thus likely exclude such ephemerals, or at least give them very short term blocks compared to the main servers. Because getting blocked here for several months for having been part of VPNGate for a few hours hardly seems fair.<br> |
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*:::Actually, now that I think about it: if you're going to connect to VPNGate servers for the express purpose of determining and blocking their exit IPs, you'd probably be in violation of their TOS. While you might consider this an "ends justifying the means" situation, are you sure you want to associate the WMF with such unauthorized usage? There's a difference between port scanning or getting an IP list via an API and actually '''traversing''' the VPN in order to investigate it. This absolutely is ''not'' a legal threat ''by me'', but if VPNGate were to learn of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they took action. Aren't there enough services out there that provide VPN IP lists without having to roll your own scanner? It would seem a safer bet for the WMF to use something like that. [[Special:Contributions/125.161.156.63|125.161.156.63]] ([[User talk:125.161.156.63|talk]]) 16:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::Oh, you didn't have to anonymise yourself, we don't cast [[WP:ASPERSIONS]] here and now you won't get a reply notification but that's okay! :) I checked the terms of service of their website before making their bot and it just says not to do anything IRL illegal otherwise they'll give your logged data to authorities if subpoenaed, but I will reach out to the VPNgate operators in Japanese (good practice opportunity, huh) when I have time just to double-confirm they're okay with everything. But btw, they encourage checking that your IP has changed to demonstrate it has worked in their how-to-guides, and this isn't 'tranaversing" as we're not collecting data on every single node but only the public IP of the exit node. Re short-term volunteers, that's a great point, and I'll update the JSON schema of its published data to include a "number of sightings" number, so that the blocking adminbot would escalate blocks as this increases so maybe it starts really short term like 2.5 days/60 hours (6000 active volunteers on average, divided by 100 checked every hour, minimum time to ensure the IP has truly stopped) if it's just 1 sighting but ramps up exponentially if it's seen again as an egress IP untill we're talking like 6months - 2 years blocks. Re WMF tickets, the distributed fact of VPNgate that anyone can start hosting means that most VPNgate IP addresses won't have a bad "reputation" (I checked a whole bunch on a variety of reputation lists and the egresses always had "good"" reputations) so reputation checking won't help (but they need short term blocks), also as you can't publically see the egress with VPNgate cause it's different to ingress (unlike most networks). So WMF solutions are actually quite innovative and smart for most VPN/proxy networks, it's just that VPNgate is a bit different needing a unique solution, this bot. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 04:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::I guess I'm just too careful or chicken even if most people would refrain from casting aspersions.<br> |
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*:::::I don't quite understand why you say you're not traversing. You're not just touching the network from one side, you're passing through it and coming out on the other side, that's traversing. However if they don't mind it, then I guess you're in luck. Ecxept maybe if those Japanese laws they mention a mllion times in their documents have a problem with something like this.<br> |
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*:::::I don't know what the WMF is basing its reputation measurements on. My meaning was that sites like browserleaks.com almost always seem to know about the VPN status of the exit nodes I've used over time. I don't know where they're getting this information from exactly, but that's what I meant by reputation, not whether they're good or bad but what they're known to engage in, like being a VPN node. And that database is probabably built either through collaboration or by specialized services, which the WNF can use as well. Like email providers use common antispam databases instead of each rolling their own.<br> |
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*:::::In any case, good luck with your bot, because I'm afraid these persistent abusers you want to keep out by this probably won't be averse to paying for commercial VPNs if they have to, and many of those only cost a handful of bucks a month. Commercial companies will almost certainly have a TOS that would prohibit your bot, so to counter them the WMF would in the end still have to resort to a specialist or collaborative VPN IP list of some kind. You can probably cut down on casual troublemakers by tracking VPNGate but I don't think it'll help all that much much against anyone highly motivated. They can even continue using VPNGate, it'll just be less convenient because they have to find brand new nodes before you catch those. |
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*::::: [[Special:Contributions/92.253.31.37|92.253.31.37]] ([[User talk:92.253.31.37|talk]]) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::I'm not sure what you mean by "Japanese Laws" they keep mentioning they don't seem to mention any, when I told you that the ToS said don't do anything irl illegal I was referring to [https://www.vpngate.net/en/about_abuse.aspx this ToS page] which doesn't mention any "Japanese Laws" but just says don't do anything like CSAM like your government can subpoena us for, because we'll comply (and directions for LEOs to request this). Re reputation yes, the major VPNgate nodes that have done it for a while do have bad reputations, particularly 219.100.37.0/24 which is the example servers run by the university themselves - but as you said, because anyone can start a VPNgate server and then there's always brand new nodes that won't have bad reputations and can be abused. But - as I've stated in a different discussion above, the list of VPN servers to connect to only updates with new servers hourly, so while reputation services won't catch the new exit nodes (because they won't be used poorly enough to trigger flagging for a white), the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs. Re commercial services generally, unlike VPNgate, they use datacenters and static IPs that are assigned to "Hotspot Shield, Inc." (as an example) so it's easy to CIDR range block them and also the reputation of those deteriorates over time as they do bad things - the companies don't randomly get new IPs in random locations around the world, like VPNgate. In fact commercial reputation services excel at identifying commercial services (from my testing), but VPNgate is community distributed, like Wikipedia, and needs a unique approach. And yes, as I said to Daniel, I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Wikipedia (the bot currently has 146 IPs in its [[User:MolecularBot/IPData.json|list]] and as shown by the stats section of the [https://molecularbot2.toolforge.org/ toolforge frontend], ~60% are currently unblocked (and this is an underestimate because the list is mainly the "obvious" ones that are always provided first in the 98 hourly sample, like 219.100.37.0/24. This is because the bot has only had 1 full run of all IPs in a given hour's list, and many failed partial runs of just the first couple. I think blocking VPNgate significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks - only looking at only 10 of the blocked IPs I see link spam, edit warring, block evasion, vandalism and our favourite [[WP:LTA]]. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 08:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::They mention Japanese laws repeatedly in the texts shown when you click the licence and notice buttons under Help > About of the SoftEther VPN Client Manager. It's a canned statement saying they only comply with Japanese laws because they can't possibly follow every law worldwide.<br> |
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*:::::::{{tq|the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs}} Are you going to run multiple instances of the bot in parallel, because the 98 IP list you get per hour seems far from sufficient for make claims about a strong level of protection if there are ~6000 egresses, many of which churn. With your current setup, an abuser can get their own list refresh, which would be different from what the bot gets, run it past your very helpful :) IP check tool and then make edits from any IP not covered. Which may not be many, but they only need one out of their 98, so it's likely they'll get something as long as the volunteer swarm keeps changing.<br> |
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*:::::::Getting a bit more facetious, VPNGate could conversely determine the IP of your bot and block it as a censorship agent. :) I really think it contradicts the spirit of their operation even if they haven't prohibited it explicitly, since you don't happen to be a state agent. This is just my conjecture, but I'm guessing that if you looked at your IP list edits without focusing solely on the abuse, you'd also see constructive edits coming from them, quite possibly from people using VPNGate to bypass state firewalls. I am well aware of Wikipedia open proxy policy, but it can make editing somewhat difficult for such people.<br> |
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*:::::::These remain my two sticking points: while useful, the bot won't be quite as effective as you represent; and you're arguably abusing their service to operate yours.<br> |
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*:::::::Once this bot starts issuing blocks, you should probably amend [[Help:I have been blocked]] to include verbiage about having used a VPN in the recent past, because this situation isn't really covered by the "you are using a VPN" or collateral damage statements. [[Special:Contributions/211.220.201.217|211.220.201.217]] ([[User talk:211.220.201.217|talk]]) 15:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::VPNgate does not have as firm of a ground as you claim. Yes, companies have terms of use and those terms of use often have clauses of disputes being filed in their local country. However, as multiple attourneys have pointed out, this local dispute solving when dealing with an customer from abroad does not really work. In reality, VPNgate is forced to deal with international laws, because otherwise they will just lose their case. (one of the legal opinions supporting this: https://svamc.org/cross-border-business-disputes-company-use-international-arbitration/ ) |
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*::::::::As far as blocks go, yes, they could block one user, but let me remind you that there are 120,000 active wikipedia users. The script could just be passed on between users until all of their IP ranges are blocked. They would lose that war, every time. [[User:Snævar|Snævar]] ([[User talk:Snævar|talk]]) 20:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::I don't recall claiming anything about firm ground. I have a problem with the WMF or parties associated with it engaging in somewhat questionable practices, even if it is for a good cause. I'm OK with port scanning or getting data from an API, because that's external probing, but actually passing through someone's premises with the intent of later restricting their users is something I find objectionable, and it is my conjecture that VPNGate would think likewise. If VPNGate blocked one user's bot, that would simply be an indication that they object to such activities, and having a million other users on the ready to take over would change nothing about that, and I'm fairly certain the WMF does not subscribe to this sort of hackerish way of thinking anyway. VPNGate aren't outlaws against whom anything goes, they operate a prefectly legitimate service, albeit one that some people abuse. It's also possible that it's just me, and VPNGate themselves have no objection to any of this. The OP was going to ask them, so I presume they'll inform everyone about the response sometime soon. [[Special:Contributions/220.81.178.129|220.81.178.129]] ([[User talk:220.81.178.129|talk]]) 11:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::Yes, this is definitely not something that should be adversarial or "us against them" and if they express concerns about this behaviour, we should totally not try and evade it - after all VPNgate does share our mission of spreading free knowledge to the world (and are very useful to spreading Wikipedia and other websites around the globe, it's just some bad actors taking advantage of the kind service of both the university and the volunteers creating a problem). We just need to find a way to work together to ensure that we both can continue to do our things. Being the holiday season, it's pretty busy for me and I'm sure the [[Christmas in Japan|same is true]] for the operators so I will reach out in the new year re their thoughts on this. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 04:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::Hi! The abuser can't get their own list refresh seperate from what the bot sees, I guess I wasn't clear before but what I meant was that '''everyone''' gets the '''same''' 98 IPs every hour, and then the next hour another 98 are randomly selected to be shown to everyone. |
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*::::::::Re censroship/state agencies this doesn't help state agents or censorship at all, because they want to block the input/ingress IP addresses that citizens would use to connect to the VPN network, and knowing the egress that the VPN network uses to connect to servers doesn't help them at all. I have clarified this in the README.md now so anyone who sees the project will know that it can't be used for censorship. |
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*::::::::Re users bypassing state firewalls, they can still read and if they want to edit we have [[WP:ACC]] for that (abusers could go through acc I guess, but then they can't block evade once their account gets indef'ed - and VPNgate has been used a lot by link spammers, people who want to edit war (especially someone who got really upset about [[caste]]s, I've seen a lot of edit warring from detected IPs about that) to evade the blocks on their main account). |
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*::::::::Btw, thank you for calling my tool helpful, I'm not the best at UI design but I tried to put some effort in and make it looks nice and have useful functions. Thank you to you as well for your time in providing soooo much helpful feedback to make the bot better. :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 03:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::Also thanks for reminding me to provide guidance to users on this, I think the current [[WP:OPP]] block message doesn't really fit with the VPNgate mode of temporary volunteers (who the user effected might not even know about but could get a dynamic assignment with an IP blocked for a few days). I'll make a custom block template! :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 03:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::Tada I guess... {{tl|Blocked VPNgate}} Anyone reading this please feel comfortable to be [[WP:BOLD]] and make it better if you'd like, it's still a very early draft. :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 10:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::While tone of you thanks seems to include some aspersions :), you're welcome if what I've said has helped you. If the list is the same for everyone, you can indeed be a lot more effective. My point about censorship was less about you helping state censors and more about you using the loophole that VPNGate haven't said anything about private actors, and giving the impression that abuse is the ''only'' thing it is being used for. [[Special:Contributions/220.81.178.129|220.81.178.129]] ([[User talk:220.81.178.129|talk]]) 11:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::Oh no I'm really sad now, please don't take my tone when I thanked you in the wrong way (it can be both hard to express and pick up on the internet)! Maybe saying "sooooo" was a bit over the top, but you've genuinely gone back and forth with me a lot of times and always written detailed, logical suggestions or concerns to help, so genuinely, no sarcasm, thank you!!! :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 04:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::::All right then, and sorry about my tendency to lean a bit on the paranoid side. [[Special:Contributions/159.146.72.149|159.146.72.149]] ([[User talk:159.146.72.149|talk]]) 09:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::::That's so fine! :) [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 05:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::::How feasible would it be to make the list of IPs private/admin-only? I mean, they're still going to get blocked, and that's public, but I feel like making a ''public'' list, even if one may or may not already exist, might be an unnecessary step? |
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*:::::::::::If I ran a VPN service I'd be a lot less upset about Wikipedia defending itself than Wikipedia creating a public up-to-date list of VPN IPs that everyone can use, without effort, to mass block most of my VPN. – [[Special:Contributions/2804:F14:80DD:5501:947B:8E40:2657:88CF|2804:F1...57:88CF]] ([[Special:Contribs/2804:F14::/32|::/32]]) ([[User talk:2804:F14:80DD:5501:947B:8E40:2657:88CF|talk]]) 02:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::::I'm not really sure, I don't think there's a way to restrict viewing a page on EnWiki (I could whip up a MediaWiki extension enabling "read protection" of a page, but I doubt the WMF would install it), but we do have things like checkuserwiki, arbcomwiki etc. which have limited viewership so prep haps the bot could operate on a new antiabusewiki (but this would require even more work from WMF than installing the extension) and then a stewardbot could issue global blocks from there? I would also have to take down [https://molecularbot2.toolforge.org molecularbot2.toolforge.org] and the [https://github.com/IntegralPilot/Gateslam GitHub repo] (that anyone could just download code and run it to get their own list). But even if we don't have a list, it's trivial to query the MediaWiki API for block status (that's what the toolforge tool does in addition to seeing if the IP is listed at [[User:MolecularBot/IPData.json]] when you lookup an IP or generate stats), there's very high ratelimits for this, and you just need to check if the block reason is {{tl|Blocked VPNgate}} or whatever message the adminbot/stewardbot leaves. [[User:MolecularPilot|<span style="color: #0369a1; font-family:monospace">MolecularPilot</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MolecularPilot|🧪️]][[Special:Contributions/MolecularPilot|✈️]]</sup> 04:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Why are frwiki talk pages so much nicer than ours? == |
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There's been a recurring issue at [[Special:WantedCategories]] with the "vital=" flag in a template autogenerating assessment categories that not only don't exist, but don't even seem to correspond to any established assessment queues ''at all''. |
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Take a look at (for example) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Oracle#Li_M'H%C3%A2_Ong_(2). This seems to be typical of talk pages on frwiki. The threading of replies is so much easier to follow. Is this just some snazzier CSS they're using, or something fundamentally better to edit the pages? [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 01:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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For instance, "vital articles in Biology" is a thing that genuinely exists, while "vital articles in Biological and health sciences" is not, and yet things like {{cl|B-Class vital articles in Biological and health sciences}}, {{cl|Wikipedia level-5 vital articles in Biological and health sciences}}, {{cl|Start-Class vital articles in Biological and health sciences}} and {{cl|Wikipedia vital articles in Biological and health sciences}} have shown up as redlinks despite "biology" equivalents already existing for all three of those things — but I can find no trace of a reason why vital= is funnelling a random smattering of articles into "biological and health sciences" ''instead'' of "biology", even while funnelling most articles into "biology". I've redirected them all to their "biology" equivalents already, but the contents aren't moving. |
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: It looks like just some snazzy CSS. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 01:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I see no reason not to adopt the CSS over here, or some other form of threaded discussion by default.'''[[User:JayCubby|<span style="background:#0a0e33;color:white;padding:2px;">Jay</span>]][[User talk:JayCubby|<span style="background:#1a237e;color:white;padding:2px;">Cubby</span>]]''' 01:22, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::There are some gadgets that support it. I think ConvenientDiscussions is one of them. I'm not a general fan of the styling. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:08, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::A screenshot of [[c:User:JWBTH/CD|Convenient Discussions]] for reference: |
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:::[[File:Convenient Discussions screenshot en.png|frameless|none]] |
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:::Threads are collapsible, and a change is coming that would allow to collapse/expand all replies to a comment in one click, similar to how you can do that on Reddit with a +/− button.{{pb}}And, of course, pure CSS is only a half-solution here since markup and HTML produced by it are trickier and don't correspond to the actual comment structure as one-to-one. [[User:JWBTH|Jack who built the house]] ([[User:JWBTH|talk]]) 05:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'd love to see that too! [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 23:06, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I created my own experimental CSS stylesheet to add style formatting to discussion threads; see [[User:Isaacl/style/discussion-threads]] for an example of how it looks and instructions on using it. There is an accompanying user script to temporarily turn the style formatting off for the current page, should you want to see how the page looks by default. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 02:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I don't personally like that layout, but the customer is always correct in matters of taste I suppose? It's just styling hacks ([https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Oracle?safemode=1#Li_M'H%C3%A2_Ong_(2) see without]). frwiki has thousands of lines of custom css being loaded by default (e.g. from [[:w:fr:MediaWiki:common.css]] , [[:w:fr:MediaWiki:Vector-2022.css]], [[:w:fr:MediaWiki:Gadget-Mobile.css]]). Someone could write a "pretty talk pages" script here, and if it was popular we could make it available as a gadget. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::What's been done in the past is A/B testing of different gimmicks by the WMF. I'd be curious to see the rate of abandoned comments now versus with a shiny new layout is. '''[[User:JayCubby|<span style="background:#0a0e33;color:white;padding:2px;">Jay</span>]][[User talk:JayCubby|<span style="background:#1a237e;color:white;padding:2px;">Cubby</span>]]''' 15:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::My stylesheet continues to be used by (double-checks)... only me. I like it, but it's not evident yet that there's a significant demand for different styling of discussion threads. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:17, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:That looks HIDEOUS. All the boxes and colors distract me from the text. I would find it harder to follow those conversations. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 15:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:The threading is entirely frwiki's custom CSS. It's pretty easy to do, with how talk pages use nested definition-list syntax for discussions already; <code>body.ext-discussiontools-replytool-enabled dd { border-left: 2px solid lavender; padding-left: 1ex; }</code> gets you about 95% of the way there. There's plenty of room to get fancier, of course. (And sometime people use unordered lists instead, which would need to be handled separately.) |
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:There's also a visible difference since enwiki is the only place that the DiscussionTools "visual enhancements" haven't been turned on yet ({{phab|T379102}}). That's why they have the fancier thread summaries in the topic list and under the headings, and the more button-like reply links. If you're curious what that'd be like here, you can [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)?dtenable=1 turn it on with the dtenable URL parameter]. |
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:We did experiment with going much further in page-reformatting with DiscussionTools as well. You can see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:DiscussionToolsDebug?pagetitle=Wikipedia%3AVillage+pump+%28technical%29 our structure-debug page] for an example of that. It's actually what the talk pages in the mobile apps use now -- they get the talk page data from the DiscussionTools API and build the view from that, rather than from the normal wikitext render. [[User:DLynch (WMF)|DLynch (WMF)]] ([[User talk:DLynch (WMF)|talk]]) 16:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::This looks so cool! I'm really looking forward to it on enwiki :) any way I can opt-in to DiscussionTools improvements like this sooner? [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 03:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You can enable DiscussionTools in the beta menu. I don't know where that's located in Vector 2022's menu (I use MonoBook), but it's in there. <span>♠[[User:JCW555|<span style="color:purple">JCW555</span>]] [[User talk:JCW555|<span style="color: black">(talk)</span>]]</span>♠ 04:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Right, I have it on, but it looks like FrWiki and other wikis are using a newer version with more features (which is what I'm interested in). [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 19:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::For the record, those boxes don't show up on mobile. That issue, combined with the fact that replies aren't as far apart in the new version, makes it ''harder'' for mobile users to tell who is replying to who compared to the current version. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 19:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Woah, it looks like [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Talk_pages_project/Feature_summary MediaWiki has an even nicer talk page GUI]? Any way I can enable ''that'' on all wikis? [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 19:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::I have since learned that this would be a terrible idea. (I still like the look, though, and it would be great to have some way to sort threads by age.) [[User:Closed Limelike Curves|– Closed Limelike Curves]] ([[User talk:Closed Limelike Curves|talk]]) 20:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It would be indeed great to have more control over sorting threads, especially since there are a number of wikis (including the main wiki I contribute to, Russian Wikipedia) which have to resort to bad hacks to display certain forum pages in recent-oldest sorting order and not oldest-recent as it is default. It would’ve been great to see these hacks made obsolete with DiscussionTools, see [[phab:T313165]], but AFAIK no one actively develops it any more, so I guess we’ll have to wait till WMF decides to fund it again. [[user:stjn|stjn]] 21:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::That's [[Wikipedia:Flow|Flow]]. It failed for complicated reasons, has limped along unmaintained since 2016-ish, and is currently in the process of being completely removed now that DiscussionTools was deployed as the outcome of the [[Wikipedia:Talk pages project|2019 talk pages consultation]]. [[User:DLynch (WMF)|DLynch (WMF)]] ([[User talk:DLynch (WMF)|talk]]) 20:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::This is also as ugly as homemade sin. Way too much whitespace.--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 20:47, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Undesirable (and new?) line wrapping == |
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And by the same token, "vital articles in Society" is a thing, while "Vital articles in society and social sciences" is not, but that didn't stop the generation of {{cl|B-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences}}, {{cl|List-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences}}, {{cl|Start-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences}} and {{cl|Unassessed vital articles in Society and social sciences}}. |
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I don't know if it's just me noticing something that has been there for a long time, or if something new is happening, or if my CSS or browser is to blame, but I am noticing undesirable line wrapping that I have not seen before. I am seeing references after full stops (periods) that wrap to the next line. I'm seeing the ")" in "{{f/|16}})" (in the lead of [[Exposure value]]) wrapping to the next line. And I think one other kind of wrapping that should not be happening but that I can't remember at the moment. I don't think this sort of wrapping was happening before; references stayed with the preceding punctuation, and a closing parenthesis would stay with the text that preceded it. I could be wrong or misremembering, of course. My gut feeling is that I just started noticing it in the last month or so. |
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But try as I might, I can't find hide nor hair of a reason why the vital= flag is filtering some articles into different categories than it filters other equivalent articles. Could somebody with more experience working with WikiProject templates look into this? [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 17:02, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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: I took a look at [[Talk:Cyrillic alphabets]] being in {{cl|List-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences}} for you. It appears to be due to data in [[Wikipedia:Vital articles/data/C.json]] maintained by [[User:Cewbot]] which is operated by @[[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]]. Pinging them to the discussion. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 13:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I think this is because the topic is different from the section title, please refer to [[User:Cewbot/log/20200122/configuration#Topics]]. This issue is expected to be solved by the following steps: |
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::# [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Cewbot 12]] - The process is expected to take a couple of months. |
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::# Delete the setting of [[User:Cewbot/log/20200122/configuration#Topics]]. |
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::# Merge {{tl|VA}} into {{tl|WPBS}} |
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::# Rename the categories |
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::[[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 13:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::We could solve this today by updating the topic fields in the .json files to be consistent — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 13:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I am following up at [[Wikipedia talk:Vital articles#Topics]] — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 14:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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If it's just me, I'll live with it, but I thought I would post here to see if this prompts anyone else to chime in. I am using Vector 2022 on the latest Firefox for Mac OS. I can link to example pages and even provide screen shots as needed. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 01:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Heads up for all tool users == |
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:{{tqb|I am seeing references after full stops (periods) that wrap to the next line.}} |
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As noted above in [[#Toolforge Grid Engine shutdown]], some old infrastructure which supports a lot of tools is getting shut down soon. Mostly this is of interest to people who maintain those tools, but it affects users too. Please take a look at [https://grid-deprecation.toolforge.org/ the list of tools still running on Grid Engine]. If you see any tools you depend on, this might be a good time to start bugging whoever maintains that tool to make sure it's going to get migrated to the new infrastructure called Kubernetes. |
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:This has unfortunately always been the case. I found Phab tasks and comments documenting this going back to 2016: [[phab:T100112#2027495|T100112#2027495]], [[phab:T125480|T125480]]. There have been cases where line wrapping around references behaved even worse than that (interesting ones I found: [[phab:T96487|T96487]], [[phab:T110057|T110057]], [[phab:T132255|T132255]]), and those have been fixed. |
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:{{tqb|I'm seeing the ")" in "f/16)" (in the lead of [[Exposure value]]) wrapping to the next line}} |
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:I can reproduce this, screenshot for reference: [[phab:F58028918|F58028918]]. This is caused by using <code>display: inline-block;</code> in the template {{tn|f/}} (basically the same issue as [[phab:T110057|T110057]] mentioned above, actually). It was added not quite a year ago: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template:F//styles.css&diff=prev&oldid=1196926970]. I'm not sure what these rules are for, but someone could probably find a way to do this differently and avoid the problem. |
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:{{tqb|And I think one other kind of wrapping that should not be happening but that I can't remember at the moment.}} |
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:Well, it's a bit tricky to guess from that ;), but my crystal ball shows me you're thinking of [[phab:T353005|T353005]], where some error and warning messages now break words with hyphens when wrapping lines, starting also about a year ago. I heard a few people complain about that and I find it a bit unpleasant myself. Did I guess right? |
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:[[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 01:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Adding a <code>&zwj;</code> after the span in {{tl|f/}}, as shown in [[Special:Diff/1263967231]], would at least fix the issue in that template. <span class="nowrap">--[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<b style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:middle;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</b>]])</span> 17:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:The problem with NOT wrapping (especially when dictated by templates), is that it works for 90% of the cases. But there is also the 10% of cases where the value is too small to fit in the infobox or on a mobile screen in 1 line. But the templates can't make that distinction, so it's generally a bad idea to put 'no wrap' as a default in a template. Overall it is better to depend on the browser to mostly do things right and not fret too much about the occasional times that it gets it wrong. Because flipping that assumption around tends to create harder to maintain wikitext that gets it wrong about the same or even more often. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for the responses. As I said, I really can't tell if I'm seeing something new, or if I noticed one and now the [[Baader-Meinhof phenomenon]] is in effect. If I see something really egregious, I'll take a screen shot. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 15:50, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== contentious topics/aware plus "topic code" == |
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If you're interested in the technical details, you can [https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/News/Toolforge_Grid_Engine_deprecation read more on wikitech]. For those of you who aren't into the technical details, all you really need to know is that if the people who maintain the tool you use aren't working on migrating it, you should be working on finding a different tool to use before the one you're using now goes away. The most recent report says there's 445 tools yet to be migrated. With 6 migrations in the previous week and about 10 weeks to go before the toolpocolypse, the math doesn't look good. [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 17:45, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:How are regular editors supposed to read that report and know whether a tool they rely on will break? It might be helpful for the Grid Engine administrators to schedule a planned multi-day or one-week outage between now and the drop-dead date, so that when tools break during that planned outage, we (1) know what still needs to be migrated and (2) still have access to the tools for a few weeks before they go away. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 19:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:It looks like a serious step backwards in terms of tool availability. A wikiproject I work on has already been seriously hit by unmaintained tools stopping working due to internal database changes, and we'll be losing more soon when the useful columns are removed from the pagelinks table. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 19:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Unfortunately the wiki sites grow a lot and as such, things have to change every now and then, to keep everything working and maintainable. The tools are something with a lot of access to the internals of the software stack and are thus pretty vulnerable to breakage of these specific mentioned changes, especially if they are effectively orphaned tools. But that's not really what we have here, this is more a case of how tools are run, which for most tools shouldn't be too difficult to fix (the biggest problem is likely with systems that were already shaky or that use a lot of external dependencies). If everyone pitches in, it's probably not going to be as bad as it looks right now. For instance, i've done a casual check of about 15 tools on that list, and about half aren't even working to begin with, so... —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 20:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::It's the 15 tools that we really rely on that I worry about, and I have no idea how to pick them out of the giant list. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 20:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::: You really rely on 15 tools (!). I started trying to compile a list of tools I recognized that would be affected, and gave up at around the letter "G" after realizing there would be too many to properly list. And the apocalypse is in one week (when "Any maintainer who has not responded on phabricator will have tools shutdown and crontabs commented out"), not 10 weeks. And it will be bad. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 20:53, 7 December 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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:I see there's some [https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/message/NW4JHZNM5WPMEUI4ARY6VBZ6KQK3QJ5R/ additional historical context] (post within a thread), and an [https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/cloud@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/3DC3MG7WPV2I6TZ4U6BRXTEIB7FSHPGB/"Assurances and Support"] post from the team from Friday, which may help folks who are just reading-along here. HTH. [[User:Quiddity (WMF)|Quiddity (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Quiddity (WMF)|talk]]) 21:27, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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: There is [https://kanasimi.github.io/wikibot/wikitech/crontab-to-toolforge-jobs.html a very rudimentary tool] that helps developers convert from crontab to toolforge jobs framework .yaml file. --[[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 01:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:If I'm reading it right, then the standouts to me in a quick scan are AfDStats, Yapperbot, Musikbot, and wugbot. Those would all go down if their maintainers don't do something in the next few months? [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 05:31, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::There are also tools which help with disambiguation, producing reports such as [https://tools.wmflabs.org/dplbot/disambig_links.php Disambiguation pages with links]. We're aware of these but haven't yet fixed them. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 16:19, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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i want to add the contentious topics/aware template to the top of my talkpage, but [[Template:Contentious_topics/table#Codes|the list of topic codes]] says to substitute the template so i did but the israel/palestine topic code did not display. how do i include the topic code? [[User:Daddyelectrolux|Daddyelectrolux]] ([[User talk:Daddyelectrolux|talk]]) 19:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Triangles in Special:Watchlist too big and pointing wrong way == |
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:@[[User:Daddyelectrolux|Daddyelectrolux]] You don't need to subst that template, you would just do {{tlx|Contentious topics/aware|a-i}}. <span class="nowrap">--[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<b style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:middle;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</b>]])</span> 19:51, 19 December 2024 (UTC) |
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<s>[[WP:ITSTHURSDAY]] I imagine.</s> If you set your watchlist settings just right, each page's revisions will be collapsed until you click on a triangle. At that point the triangle will go from facing down to facing right, and the page's revisions will go from hidden to shown. |
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::the topic codes page states that the template should be substituted. perhaps that should be removed, to avoid new people from make my same mistake? thank you [[User:Ahecht]]. :) [[User:Daddyelectrolux|Daddyelectrolux]] ([[User talk:Daddyelectrolux|talk]]) 00:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Daddyelectrolux}} You wanted to use [[Template:Contentious topics/aware]] which doesn't say to use subst. [[Template:Contentious topics/table]] is used to document other templates and it varies whether they require subst. I have added this to the documentation.[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template:Contentious_topics/table/doc&diff=prev&oldid=1264094584] [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 12:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::To be fair, up until yesterday [[Template:Contentious topics/aware/doc]] just linked to [[Template:Contentious topics/table]]. I updated it so that it properly transcludes the table, which hides the <code>subst:</code> syntax. <span class="nowrap">--[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<b style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:middle;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</b>]])</span> 15:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Updating broken JavaScript user script for adding a template to RefToolbar 2.0 == |
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Anyway, this triangle recently doubled in size, and now always points down (won't point to the right when you click on it). This is on Vector and Vector 2022. Was not able to reproduce for Monobook. |
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Hi! Hopefully this is the right place to put this. [[:Template:Cite RCDB]]'s documentation contains a suggested user script to add the template to [[Wikipedia:RefToolbar/2.0|RefToolbar 2.0]]. However, it imports [[User:Mr.Z-man/refToolbar 2.0.js]], which hasn't been a think since 2013. On the page is now a note saying "This script is now enabled by default." The existing script, however, does not work out of the box, throwing the error below. If someone who knows JS could help modify the script to work without the linked user script, that would be great! |
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The problem goes away in safemode, so the bug fix may need to be made in a local gadget related rather than MediaWiki core. |
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<pre> |
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VM385:2 Uncaught ReferenceError: $j is not defined |
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at <anonymous>:2:913 |
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at globalEval (startup.js:1141:17) |
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at runScript (startup.js:1292:6) |
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at enqueue (startup.js:1179:5) |
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at execute (startup.js:1399:5) |
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at doPropagation (startup.js:748:6) |
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</pre> |
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[[User:Plighting Engineerd|Plighting Engineerd]] ([[User talk:Plighting Engineerd|talk]]) 01:38, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:The instructions were VERY VERY outdated. I have updated them and tested the 'new' fragment and it works. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 10:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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<s>I suspect Vector changed the name or nesting of one of their elements, breaking our local gadget.</s> |
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::Thanks so much! Works perfectly now! [[User:Plighting Engineerd|Plighting Engineerd]] ([[User talk:Plighting Engineerd|talk]]) 13:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Site is under maintenance == |
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Files that might need repair (search for <code>mw-enhancedchanges-arrow</code>): |
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* [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WatchlistGreenIndicators.css]] |
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* |
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–[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 00:11, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:No train today, but I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3AGadget-WatchlistGreenIndicators.css&diff=1188825350&oldid=1181892686 this] series of edits is likely the cause. Will wait for someone else's opinion before reverting. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 00:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Please don't. [[phab:T352456]] fixed the watchlist display for me. There is an image in that task that shows how the arrows in my watchlist looked before the fix. Now uncollapsed watched items are marked by right-pointing arrows (much the same as collapsed categories on category pages). When uncollapsed, the watchlist arrows point down, again just like uncollapsed categories on category pages. |
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:: |
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::For me: chrome current, win10; at [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist]]: Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent, Use non-JavaScript interface; at [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets]]: Display green collapsible arrows and green bullets for changed pages in your watchlist, page history and recent changes (unavailable with the improved Watchlist user interface); all are checked. |
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::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 01:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Yeah, I noticed this last Thursday, but I sometimes I tire of reporting bugs that never get fixed and have to go lie on my fainting couch for a while. Both the arrow direction and the uneven vertical alignment are fixed today. Thanks for reporting it, Trappist. Happy Thursday! – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 02:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Fixed for me today too. Sometimes it's good that it [wa]s Thursday. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 11:13, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::I think I fixed it with these two changes: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3AGadget-WatchlistGreenIndicators.css&diff=1188922324&oldid=1188825350 |
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::When the arrows were fixed for all of you above who enabled "Watchlist → Use non-JavaScript interface" in preferences, the same change also broke them for anyone who has it disabled. They should work correctly for everyone now. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 15:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Yeap, all fixed. Thank you! |
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:::{{Resolved}} –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 21:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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I was unable to complete an edit a few minutes ago. I got an error message saying the site was under maintenance. Clicking on "back" did get me the edit I was trying to make and a few seconds later I was successful. |
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== Fixing Citoid created references for Youtube == |
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I posted just for documentation but I am having difficulty with a site that is very slow and I came here to do an edit to have something to do while waiting for pages on that slow site to come up. The slow site slows everything else down.— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#070">Vchimpanzee</span>]] • [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#aa4400"> talk</span>]] • [[Special:Contribs/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#700">contributions</span>]] • 21:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Hi all |
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== Blacklisted website not on any blacklist == |
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Youtube is the second most popular website in the world, with a huge number of reliable news sources using it as a platform for sharing video. Unfortunately Citoid doesn't work properly for creating refs for Youtube currently. This leads to poor quality labelling of references being made, and while there are some templates to specifically cite video content, they aren't user friendly at all. [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T278281 I started a Phabricator ticket in 2021] to try and address this issue, however its not been worked on. Can I request anyone interested in this: |
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I wanted to save an edit containing a link to tradingview.com but it keeps showing a message: |
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* Subscribe to the Phabricator task so its made clear this is an issue many people would like to be fixed. |
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* Try citing Youtube videos in articles and give feedback in the Phab task if you notice anything I haven't mentioned. |
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"Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist or Wikimedia's global blacklist. [...] The following link has triggered a protection filter: tradingview.com [...]" |
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Also just to say I've seen a couple of people say "Youtube is an unreliable source and shouldn't be used", I think this is a missunderstanding of what the platform is, its the channels that should be assessed for reliability rather than the publishing platform as a whole. E.g the BBC News channel is reliable (its listed under Perennialy reliable sources on en.wiki), where as My Toy Reviews or DailyWire or whatever are obviously not reliable. |
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So I tried to figure out whether I shouldn't use that website as a source and on what blacklist that website is supposed to be but I couldn't find anything. Is that a bug? [[User:Killarnee|Killarnee]] ([[User talk:Killarnee|talk]]) 14:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Thanks very much |
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: It's on the global blacklist at [[meta:Spam blacklist]]. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 14:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yeah. It was added in October 2017. See the [[meta:Talk:Spam blacklist/Archives/2017-10#tradingview.com|request]] and [[meta:User:COIBot/LinkReports/tradingview.com|link report]]. – [[User:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|Daℤyzzos]] ([[User_talk:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|✉️]] • [[Special:Contributions/DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|📤]]) <small>''Please do '''not''' [[Help:ping|ping]] on reply.''</small> 14:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Hm now I found it too, somehow the find tool in Safari wasn't able to find it. Thanks you both. Looks like I have to search for another source. [[User:Killarnee|Killarnee]] ([[User talk:Killarnee|talk]]) 14:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[Special:Shortpages]] == |
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[[User:John Cummings|John Cummings]] ([[User talk:John Cummings|talk]]) 07:11, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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When I try to view this special page I just get the following error: |
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:@[[User:John Cummings|John Cummings]] This might be a good task for the next Community Wishlist Survey. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 17:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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{{!tq|[8f6642e6-42f2-4bba-8e7d-01bac9220c2f] 2024-12-21 18:40:02: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\RequestTimeout\RequestTimeoutException"}} |
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== CfD closure requiring template editor intervention == |
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Is anyone else getting this error when viewing that page? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:E9BC:B9ED:405A:596B|2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:E9BC:B9ED:405A:596B]] ([[User talk:2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:E9BC:B9ED:405A:596B|talk]]) 18:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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[[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_28#Category:Templates_calling_Infobox_officeholder]] needs [[WP:template editor|template editor]] assistance in closing, as it seems to be populated by a template (likely the template-protected {{t|Infobox officeholder}}), and I can't discern from the code of the sole member, {{t|Infobox Native American leader}}, if this is the case. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b>]] ([[User talk:LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0d0">d</span>]][[Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0bf">c̄</span>]]) 15:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:It works now. Problems come and go. I had to restart my phone half an hour ago to get something to work. ''Extra: That was a problem with an app on my phone (nothing to do with Wikipedia).'' [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I see a similar error when I try to check logs for [[Special:Log/ProcseeBot]]. {{!tq|[1d666f00-ed84-4e73-928d-04edc6edc844] 2024-12-22 10:33:05: Fatal exception of type 'Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryTimeoutError'.}} – [[User:DreamRimmer|<span style="color:black">'''DreamRimmer'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:DreamRimmer|'''talk''']])</small> 10:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Likely also worth noting that, above the error, it says {{tq|To avoid creating high database load, this query was aborted because the duration exceeded the limit.}} Though I suppose that's the definition of a timeout... – [[User:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|Daℤyzzos]] ([[User_talk:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|✉️]] • [[Special:Contributions/DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|📤]]) <small>''Please do '''not''' [[Help:ping|ping]] on reply.''</small> 15:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Tracked at [[phab:T325062]]. – [[User:DreamRimmer|<span style="color:black">'''DreamRimmer'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:DreamRimmer|'''talk''']])</small> 18:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Colors of images in {{tl|Infobox government agency}} are inverted in the dark mode == |
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:{{done}}. It was populated by {{tl|Wraps infobox}} on the documentation page — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 16:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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When the {{tl|Infobox government agency}} template is included into some page, SVG images inside it have their colors [[Negative (photography)|inverted]] if the dark mode is on. See, for example, the article [[United States Department of State]], specifically the seal: it should have dark blue outter ring, white inner circle with a brown eagle, but instead you can see the seal with a bluish-white outter ring, black inner circle with an orange eagle. Looked at several other infobox templates, none of them have a simmilar issue. Also, only vector images are affected by this, raster images are not. I wanted to try to debug it, but the template is fully protected. [[User:Tohaomg|Tohaomg]] ([[User talk:Tohaomg|talk]]) 17:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== * in comment table? == |
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:@[[User:Tohaomg|Tohaomg]] it's most likely [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Template%3AInfobox_government_agency&diff=1260245952&oldid=1245207838 this edit] by {{ping|Jonesey95}} that has introduced the behaviour. Probably best discussed at [[Template talk:Infobox government agency]]. [[User:Nthep|Nthep]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 18:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Looking over some really old revisions, I see some where the wiki [[Special:Diff/125595|shows an empty comment]], but the database [https://quarry.wmcloud.org/query/78564 has '*' as the value of comment.comment_text]. These are mostly in 2001 and 2002, but I'm seeing a few as late as 2006. What's this all about? Some kind of primordial data corruption? [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 04:51, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::See [[Template_talk:Infobox_government_agency#Template-protected_edit_request_on_28_November_2024|the previous discussion]]. A more comprehensive fix is welcome. The sandbox is open for anyone to edit. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 18:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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: Not primordial data corruption - if you type "*" as your edit summary today (as I did in this edit, and my previous one to the sandbox), it appears as no summary. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 05:11, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::This is not an acceptable solution, please revert. [[User:Sjoerddebruin|<span style="color:var(--color-progressive,#36c); font-weight:var(--font-weight-semi-bold,600); letter-spacing:0.05em;">Sjoerd de Bruin</span>]] [[Overleg gebruiker:Sjoerddebruin|<small style="color:var(--color-progressive,#36c); letter-spacing:0.05em;">({{int:Talkpagelinktext}})</small>]] 20:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Interestingly, the {{tq|*}} edit summary appears when I view the diff on mobile web, but not when I look in Special:Contribs (or when I switch to desktop mode). Best, <sup style="letter-spacing:-.1em;color:#737373;font-family:monospace">user:</sup>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#ff8352">'''A smart kitten'''</span>]][[User talk:A smart kitten|<sub style="color:#b842b8;font-family:monospace">''meow''</sub>]] 07:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::The reason skin-invert worked for signatures was that white writing paper is common and even though colors in pens is varied, the most commonly used ones are dark. |
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:::It's [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/plugins/gitiles/mediawiki/core/+/HEAD/includes/CommentFormatter/CommentFormatter.php#348 apparently deliberate], and being visible in [[Special:MobileDiff]] ([[Special:MobileDiff/78564|example]]) is probably a bug. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 08:41, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Logos are not created on the basis of a palette of colors, unlike signatures. Logos are created to be visible and understandable from far away and close up. As such, they should not be inverted at large. |
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::::The API [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/api.php?action=query&prop=revisions&rvprop=comment&revids=125595] also shows it but that's not a bug. The API always shows the stored characters without formatting. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:26, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I consider the edit request in the template to be unactionable, as it did not ask for any particular solution, not even a hint at one. [[User:Snævar|Snævar]] ([[User talk:Snævar|talk]]) 23:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I'm not sure why people are continuing to reply here. This discussion will be lost in the archives of VPT; please post at the template talk page with comments, suggestions, proposed fixes, or requests. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 06:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]]: I am not buying that argument for one second, also you are refusing to talk about the issue itself. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense. Most issues are solved during discussion not after, it being "lost in the archive" is a non starter as an argument. Clearly neither myself or Sjoerddebruin are going to move this discussion to the template talk page. If you continue attempting to refrain from discussing about the issue itself, consider this your first warning. I would also like to voice my disappointment of how you are handling this, I do expect better than this. [[User:Snævar|Snævar]] ([[User talk:Snævar|talk]]) 09:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Responding like this and bypassing the instructions that are clearly indicated at the top of the template page is really something, especially with an unsure edit summary. [[User:Sjoerddebruin|<span style="color:var(--color-progressive,#36c); font-weight:var(--font-weight-semi-bold,600); letter-spacing:0.05em;">Sjoerd de Bruin</span>]] [[Overleg gebruiker:Sjoerddebruin|<small style="color:var(--color-progressive,#36c); letter-spacing:0.05em;">({{int:Talkpagelinktext}})</small>]] 09:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I wasn't discussing the issue here because of [[WP:MULTI]]. See the template's talk page for further discussion. I have reverted the change and continue to welcome a better way to fix the problem that was identified and that is still present. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 15:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Historical use of File:Wiki.png as the top-left logo == |
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== Image captions are displayed incorrectly inside infoboxes == |
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See [[Template_talk:Multiple_image#Wrong_font_size_inside_infobox|this discussion]]: is it possible to display captions from {{t|Multiple image}} in an infobox without shrinking the font size? [[User:Jarble|Jarble]] ([[User talk:Jarble|talk]]) 15:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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I wonder if anybody remembers some technical details of the use of File:Wiki.png for the logo in the top-left corner during the 2000s (not limited to enwiki). [[Talk:Wikipedia logo#Early logo of Wikipedia used in 2003|This discussion]] led me to asking this. I found some clues on Commons – quoting myself from the aforementioned discussion: |
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== How to get top 100 categories available in most Wikipedias, but not created in a specific Wikipedia? == |
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{{tq2|1= |
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The log for File:Wiki.png shows two interesting entries: |
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* protection, 11 July 2005: {{tq|it's the sitewide logo in the upper left corner. Very bad if it were to get vandalized.}} |
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Hi, I wonder if we can get top 100 categories available on most Wikipedias, but still not created in a specific Wikipedia. Use Quarry (which I want this way if you can), API, SPARQL or any other way you prefer. If you can, add an optional condition to exclude those have <code><nowiki>__HIDDENCAT__</nowiki></code> property, tracking and maintenance categories. Thanks! ⇒ [[User:Aram|<span style="color:#ff0;background:#000;font-family:cursive;text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #ff0;">Aram</span>]][[User talk:Aram|<span style="color:#000;background:#ff0;font-family:cursive;text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #000;">Talk</span>]] 05:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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* deletion, 7 October 2005: {{tq|block upload of local logos for other wikis. Commons now uses [[:Image:Wiki-commons.png]] as the site-wide logo. See also [[commons:Template:Deletion_requests#Image:Wiki.png|Template:Deletion_requests#Image:Wiki.png]].}} |
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[[commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Archive/2005/09#Image:Wiki.png]] is also interesting. [...]: |
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:You can ask at [[d:WD:RAQ]] or [[d:WD:PC]], they will know better. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 18:38, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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{{tq2|1=[[commons:Image:Wiki.png|Image:Wiki.png]] should be moved to a different name (already re-created at [[commons:File:Wiki-commons.png|Image:Wiki-commons.png]]) as it currently is aliasing that name on every wiki project and therefore not allowing local logos on those projects. Tim has already changed the logo location, so it shouldn't break the commons logo, but we should wait about a week before moving it to give time for the caches to update. The logo is now hardcoded so there is no need to protect this specific image.}} |
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== Hiding admin buttons == |
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}} |
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Does anybody remember any further details? |
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Could someone please provide the user script code to hide my admin buttons (blocking users, protecting pages), except those related to files? Thank you. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 09:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Thanks, [[User:Janhrach|Janhrach]] ([[User talk:Janhrach|talk]]) 20:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Here's a quick script that will hide block, protect, and unprotect buttons. Add to [[User:Leyo/common.css]], not [[User:Leyo/common.js]]. May need to do a hard refresh on each page for awhile (Ctrl-F5) after installing, since CSS files are usually cached. |
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:<syntaxhighlight lang="css">#ca-unprotect, #ca-protect, span:has(> .mw-usertoollinks-block), #t-blockip {display: none;}</syntaxhighlight> |
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:I can do more work on this if you let me know exactly what you need. Is your end goal to hide every single admin button (delete, undelete, change usergroups, etc.) except in the file namespace? –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 09:49, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[Special:ListGroupRights#sysop]] is longer than you may expect but many of them don't have buttons or aren't admin-specific. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:: Thank you, Novem Linguae. When inserting this line to my .css (in preview mode), I get the following warning: {{tq|Error: Expected RPAREN at line 2, col 38.}} |
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:: It's mainly about the buttons where there's a danger that I might forget my promise not to use them in relation to users, e.g. in case of vandalism, because I'm still using these buttons in two other projects. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 10:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::It [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User%3ANovem_Linguae%2Fcommon.css&diff=1189358147&oldid=1171019691 worked for me]. Did you copy paste correctly? Paren probably means parenthesis, so maybe double check that you copied all parentheses. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 11:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::: The validation used by [[mw:Extension:CodeEditor]] probably doesn't know about <code>:has()</code>. That error shouldn't prevent saving, and as long as [https://caniuse.com/css-has your browser has support for it] you should be ok. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 12:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::: I've now saved it, where I got an error message. On one PC that I regularly use, the FF version is 115.4.0esr, i.e. too old. Is there an option without the has() function? --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 13:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Just change <code>span:has(> .mw-usertoollinks-block)</code> to <code>.mw-usertoollinks-block</code>, you get extra brackets but it's not a big deal. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 13:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::: Thank you, it works now. It would be great, if the block button in Special:Contributions as well as the deletion button for pages (i.e. except files) could be hidden, too. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 13:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::To do the file thing, we need to switch to JavaScript. So go ahead and delete the code from your common.css file, then add this to common.js: |
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:::::::<syntaxhighlight lang="js">mw.util.addCSS( '#ca-unprotect, #ca-protect, .mw-usertoollinks-block, #t-blockip, .mw-contributions-link-block {display: none;}' ); |
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if ( mw.config.get('wgNamespaceNumber') !== 6 && mw.config.get('wgNamespaceNumber') !== 7 ) { |
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mw.util.addCSS( '#ca-delete {display: none;}' ); |
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}</syntaxhighlight> –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 14:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::File pages have body.ns-6 and file talk has body.ns-7, which should be enough to do this without resorting to javascript (and the attendant [[FOUC]]). —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 14:39, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::: I've just implemented Novem Linguae's JS code, but haven't yet deleted the CSS code. You are the experts. I'll just implement what you recommend. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 14:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::You can remove the CSS, since the JS does the same thing and more. Glad you are finding it helpful. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 15:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: I was referring to Cryptic's comment that a CSS version would be possible and potentially favorable. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 15:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Remove the JS and restore the CSS (amended per Cryptic): <syntaxhighlight lang="css"> |
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#ca-unprotect, |
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#ca-protect, |
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.mw-usertoollinks-block, |
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#t-blockip, |
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.mw-contributions-link-block, |
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body:not(.ns-6):not(.ns-7) #ca-delete { |
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display: none; |
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} |
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</syntaxhighlight> [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 20:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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: Thank you. I implemented it. However, I still see the [[MediaWiki:Blocklink|block]] and [[MediaWiki:Nuke-linkoncontribs|mass delete]] in Special:Contributions. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 21:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::How about now (edited the code above)? [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 21:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::: Thanks, the first-mentioned button is gone now. For the latter, these is actually no danger that I could forget about my promise. I don't think that I have ever used this button. --[[User:Leyo|Leyo]] 22:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I don't really remember, but we have historical records of the configuration going back to 2012. The current system, where logos of each wiki are stored in the configuration, was introduced in 2015 in [[gerrit:c/operations/mediawiki-config/+/209616|change 209616]] and other commits around that time. Wikis had the option to use the locally uploaded Wiki.png as a logo until 2017, when it was removed in [[gerrit:c/operations/mediawiki-config/+/359037|change 359037]]. Alas I don't really know the historical context around these changes, I just found them in the history. [[User:Matma Rex|Matma Rex]] <small>[[User talk:Matma Rex|talk]]</small> 14:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Improvements to styling of Vector 2022 == |
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::Thanks. [[User:Janhrach|Janhrach]] ([[User talk:Janhrach|talk]]) 14:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Log out == |
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[[File:Vector 2022 pre-Zebra visual changes logged out.jpg|thumb|Before (<code>?vectorzebradesign=0</code>)]] |
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[[File:Vector 2022 Zebra visual changes logged out.jpg|thumb|After (<code>?vectorzebradesign=1</code>)]] |
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Hi everyone. Today, the [[mw:Reading/Web|Web team from the Wikimedia Foundation]] will introduce improvements to the styling of the Vector 2022 skin. For those of you following our updates, you might recognize some of these as a subset of the [[mw:Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Updates#May_2023:_Continuing_work_on_Vector_2022,_and_making_plans_for_the_new_fiscal_year|previously tested content separation (Zebra) prototype]]. In particular you will see: |
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I keep logging out every time I close the browser on my phone. [[User:Achmad Rachmani|Achmad Rachmani]] ([[User talk:Achmad Rachmani|talk]]) 22:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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# New background colors for the main menu that now match the remainder of our menus |
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# New styling for the show and hide buttons for menus. |
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# Bolding of menu titles |
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:Do you have some sort of ad blocker or privacy thing enabled that isn't allowing you to save cookies perhaps ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 22:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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You will find [[mw:Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Updates/en#November_2023:_Visual_changes,_more_deployments,_and_shifting_focus|more details in the project update on MediaWiki.org]]. These changes will also resolve some of the recent bugs with the table of contents, such as [[phab:T352464|this ticket]] about scrollable elements. Please let us know what you think of these tweaks and if you have any further questions! [[User:SGrabarczuk (WMF)|SGrabarczuk (WMF)]] ([[User talk:SGrabarczuk (WMF)|talk]]) 18:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|TheDJ}} I have some sort of ad blocker enabled. [[User:Achmad Rachmani|Achmad Rachmani]] ([[User talk:Achmad Rachmani|talk]]) 22:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Are these screen shots intended to show the exact same page, in the same configuration, before and after the changes? If so, it looks like the column dedicated to content, the thing everyone comes to Wikipedia for, has gotten even narrower, when it was already much too narrow to begin with. I hope this is not the case. |
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== Cat-a-lot gadget == |
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:(Edited to add this rant: I just confirmed this in another browser, logged out. At [[John Dalton]], with the (fewer visible vertical elements) TOC showing, and the Tools sidebar displayed, the content column shrank from 670 pixels wide to 618 pixels wide, just 50% of my 1228-pixel-wide browser window. With [[User:Jonesey95/common.css|custom CSS]] that makes Vector 2022 more usable, I am able to get the content column to 856 pixels wide, 70% of the available space. And this isn't even addressing the unused vertical space at the top of the window that means even more vertical scrolling for our readers. I've got that ancient phab link around here somewhere, maybe {{phab|T325219}}.) – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 21:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Hi. To follow up a query [[User:GiantSnowman|a user]] had on my talk page, I wanted to see if there was any way that edits using [[Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot|Cat-a-lot]] could be marked as minor by default? At present there is now way I am aware of to mark these edits as minor. Alternatively, would there be another way these edits could be filtered out of watchlists? We have a tick box to hide "page categorization", so could they maybe be included in that for example? Thanks. [[User:Jevansen|Jevansen]] ([[User talk:Jevansen|talk]]) 23:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[commons:Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#Preferences]] says there's a preference for that, it also shows this image: [[commons:File:2013-03-31-Gadget-Cat-A-Lot-prefscreen.png]]... is that just outdated info? does the interface still look anything like that? |
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{{clear}} |
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:Edit: erm, right, [[commons:Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#As your user gadget]] also shows how to set preferences with javascript, which I think is what you might have to do if there is no option (due to it not being a gadget on Wikipedia? You installed it as an user script, at least.) – [[Special:Contributions/2804:F14:80DD:5501:947B:8E40:2657:88CF|2804:F1...57:88CF]] ([[Special:Contributions/2804:F14::/32|::/32]]) ([[User talk:2804:F14:80DD:5501:947B:8E40:2657:88CF|talk]]) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Aha! The userscript you imported the gadget from ([[User:קיפודנחש/cat-a-lot.js]], you import them [[User:Jevansen/common.js|here]]), manually sets the preference, including a <code>minor: '''false'''</code>! |
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::I'm pretty sure you can overwrite that by just adding a line setting the preference after you import the script, but you could aso just copy their script into your common.js (replacing the import) and change that part to <code>minor: '''true'''</code>, that would also do what you want. – [[Special:Contributions/2804:F14:80DD:5501:947B:8E40:2657:88CF|2804:F1...57:88CF]] ([[Special:Contributions/2804:F14::/32|::/32]]) ([[User talk:2804:F14:80DD:5501:947B:8E40:2657:88CF|talk]]) 02:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Is it unproblematic to use `lang=` spans in section headers? == |
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== [[Template talk:Static row numbers#bnwiki]] == |
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Of course, I know it's wrong to use templates like {{tlx|lang}} in section headers, but I know anchors work correctly in the transcluded HTML, so is there any reason a header like <code><nowiki>=== <span lang="la">Tu quoque</span> ===</nowiki></code> would break something? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Can anyone help fix it? [[User:আফতাবুজ্জামান|আফতাবুজ্জামান]] ([[User talk:আফতাবুজ্জামান|talk]]) 19:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 16:59, 24 December 2024
Policy | Technical | Proposals | Idea lab | WMF | Miscellaneous |
If you want to report a JavaScript error, please follow this guideline. Questions about MediaWiki in general should be posted at the MediaWiki support desk. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for five days.
Frequently asked questions (see also: Wikipedia:FAQ/Technical) Click "[show]" next to each point to see more details.
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VPNgate blocking bot
[edit]I am seeking consensus on a proposal to develop and deploy a bot to help block VPNgate IP addresses used by a particular WP:LTA. For WP:DENY/WP:BEANS reasons, I cannot provide full details, but users familiar with the LTA in question will understand the context.
Background
[edit]I have tested several VPNgate IPs, and very few of them are currently blocked. According to Wikipedia's policy on open proxies and VPNs (per WP:NOP), these should be blocked. Given the volume of VPNgate IPs, I propose using a bot to automate this process.
This is building off this discussion on WP:BOTREQUESTS.
I am posting here to gauge consensus needed for a WP:BRFA.
Proposal
[edit]I propose a bot to automate blocking these VPNgate IPs using the following steps:
- The bot will use this list provided by VPNgate, which contains OpenVPN configuration files in Base64 format. The provided "IP" value is only the one that your computer uses to talk to the VPN (and sometimes wrong), not the one used for the VPN to talk to Wikipedia/external internet - this requires testing to uncover.
- The bot will iterate through each config file and use OpenVPN to test if it can connect. If successful, it will then use the VPN to send a request to this WhatIsMyIPAddress API to determine the real-world IP address used by each VPN to connect to Wikipedia. This is sometimes the same as the IP used to talk to the VPN - but sometimes completely different, see the demo edit I did using VPNgate on the Bot Requests discussion linked above and I also did one as a reply to this post. Also, testing is needed before blanket blocking because VPNgate claim to fill the list with fake IPs to prevent it from being used for blocking, again see the BR discussion.
Blocking or Reporting:
- If the bot is approved as an admin bot, it will immediately block the identified IPs or modify block settings to disable TPA (see Yamla's recent ANI discussion per the necessity for this) and enable auto block.
- If the bot is not approved to run as an admin bot, it will add the IPs to an interface-protected JSON file in its userspace for a bot operated by an admin to actually do the blocking.
Additional Information
[edit]- I have already developed and tested this bot locally using Pywikibot. I have tested it on a local MediaWiki install and it successfully prevents all VPNgate users from editing (should they not be IP block exempt).
- I’m posting here to gauge broader community consensus beyond the original WP:BOTREQUESTS discussion.
Poll Options
[edit]- Oppose: Object to the bot proposal. Feel free to explain why.
- Support options:
- Admin Bot (admin given code): An admin will run the bot, and I will provide the code for them to run, as well as desired environment setup etc. and will need to send any code changes or packages updates to them to perform. Admin needs to be quite technically competent.
- Admin Bot (admin gives me token): An admin provides me with the bot token (scoped per Anomie below) of a newly created account only for this purpose, allowing me to run the code under myself on Toolforge and fully manage environment setup (needs install and config of multiple python and brew packages not needed for standard pywikibot) as well as instantly deploy any needed code changes or dependency updates without bottlenecks. Admin only needs to know how to use Wikipedia UI and navigate to Special:BotToken, check some boxes, and then submit.
Admin Bot (I run it): For this specific case I am permitted to run my own admin bot.Withdrawn per Rchard2scout and WMFviewdeleted
policy.Bot without Admin Privileges: The bot will report IPs for potential blocking without admin privileges. Not recommended per large volume.Withdrawn per 98 IPs/hour volume, too much for a human admin.- Non-admin bot v2 (preferred by me): My bot, User:MolecularBot is not an admin bot. It can, however, add IP addresses that it finds are the egress of open VPNgate proxies to User:MolecularBot/IP HitList.json (editable only by the bot and WP:PLIERS/interface admins). This means I can run the code for it and manage the complex environment. An admin's bot will be running the uncomplicated code (doesn't require the complex environment and OpenVPN setup for this bot) to just monitor that page for changes and block any IPs added.
Poll
[edit]Oppose for now. From reading that discussion, it looks like the IPs available through the API are only the "ingress" IPs, which is what you connect to on their side when using the VPN (and even then, it seems like the VPN client might sometimes use another IP instead?). If there's actually a publicly available list of outgoing IPs available, I'd be very surprised. From an operational standpoint, those IPs don't need to be public, and if they are, that's a serious error on their side. If we do somehow get our hands on a list, I'd be in favour of option 1. There's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --rchard2scout (talk) 08:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)- Hi rchard2scout, I think you misunderstand the bot. The bot connects to each "ingress" IP and then finds out the "egress" IP that it uses by sending a request to a "what is my IP address API" (not associated with VPNGate in any way), then blocking the egress. This fully disables VPNgate on my local instance of MediaWiki. Thus, a list of egress IPs are not required, because it makes it own by connecting to each of the ingress ones and sending a request. I apologize if my documentation wasn't clear. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 08:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Noting that I currently do have a complete list of "egress" IPs from my local run of the bot, so should I take your vote as a support of option 1 like you stated? Thank you. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 08:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oops, you're right, I somehow missed this. Hadn't had my first coffee yet ;). Striking, adding new vote.
- That's so fine, my brain is a little laggy in the early morning as well! My technical/documentation writing probably needs some work as well, it's not my best skill (anyone please feel free to edit this post and make it clearer, if it's wrong I'll just fix it). Thank you for your time in reviewing this even though it's still the early morning where you are! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 09:38, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi rchard2scout, I think you misunderstand the bot. The bot connects to each "ingress" IP and then finds out the "egress" IP that it uses by sending a request to a "what is my IP address API" (not associated with VPNGate in any way), then blocking the egress. This fully disables VPNgate on my local instance of MediaWiki. Thus, a list of egress IPs are not required, because it makes it own by connecting to each of the ingress ones and sending a request. I apologize if my documentation wasn't clear. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 08:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support option 1. Options 2 and 3 are probably incompatible with our local and WMF policies, because an admin bot can do anything an admin can do, and you haven't gone through RfA, so you're not allowed access to rights like viewdeleted. Or (@ anyone who know this) are OAuth permissions granular enough that an admin can generate a token that allows a bot access to block but not to other permissions? In any case, I think option 1 is the easiest and safest way, there's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --rchard2scout (talk) 08:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Rchard2scout, thank you for your new comment and feedback. I hope your morning is going well! Ah yes
viewdeleted
, silly me to forget about that (I have the opposite problem as you before, it is far too late at night where I live!), I do recall it from someone else's declined proposal of admin sortion, I've struck Option 3 now per WMF legal policy. Re OAuth permissions, I know from using Huggle that when you create a bot token there's a very fine grained list of checkboxed for you to tick, and "block" is in fact one of them, so it is that granular as to avoid all other admin perms, I've expanded Option #2 above to clarify this and more circumstances. I do believe this would be my preferred option, per the reasons I've placed in my expansion, but are really happy with anything as long as we can deal with this LTA. Anyway, enjoy your morning! MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 11:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC) - There's no grant allowing
block
but no other permissions. The minimum additional admin permissions would beblock
,blockemail
,unreviewedpages
, andunwatchedpages
. Anomie⚔ 12:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC) - Support option 5 as well, and that doesn't even need a BRFA or an RFC. We do then need consensus for the adminbot part of that proposal, so perhaps this discussion can focus on that. --rchard2scout (talk) 10:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Rchard2scout, thank you for your new comment and feedback. I hope your morning is going well! Ah yes
- Option 1. I believe this is the only option allowed under policy. Admins need to run admin bots. This RFC is a bit complicated. Usually an RFC of this type would just get consensus for the task ("Is there consensus to run a bot that blocks VPNGate IP addresses?"), with implementation details to be worked out later. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Option 5 is fine if the bot doesn't need to do any blocking and is just keeping a list up-to-date. Don't even need this RFC or a BRFA if you stick the page in your userspace (WP:EXEMPTBOT). –Novem Linguae (talk) 09:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'd like to suggest an alternative approach: Write a bot or Toolforge tool that generates a data feed of IP addresses, starting with VPN Gate egress IP addresses, perhaps including the first seen timestamp and last seen timestamp for each egress. The blocking and unblocking portion of the process is relatively simple and a number of administrators could write, maintain, and run a bot that does that. (I suspect most administrators that run bots would prefer to write their own code to do that.) Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I started writing this suggestion before option 5 was added. Since it looks like this is basically the same as that option, put me down as being in favor of Option 5. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hahaha, great minds think alike I guess! Thank you for your input. :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping for Rchard2scout and Novem Linguae notifying them of the new preferred option 5 above, which I believe makes everything easier for both myself and the admin who wishes to help me (I'll leave a note on AN asking nicely once BRFA passes for MolecularBot). Also, Skynxnex, you expressed support for option 5 below, did you mean to format that as a support !vote in this section (my apologies for the confusing layout of everything here). Thank you very much to everyone for your time in reviewing this proposal and leaving very helpful feedback. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't feel like I've thought about the different aspects to do a bolded !vote yet. Skynxnex (talk) 15:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's so fine, thank you anyway for your feedback! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 23:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't feel like I've thought about the different aspects to do a bolded !vote yet. Skynxnex (talk) 15:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]- Hey, it's me, User:MolecularPilot on VPNgate. This VPN is listed as 112.187.104.70 on VPNgate cause that's what my PC talks to. But, this VPN when talking to Wikipedia, uses 121.179.23.53 as shown which is completely different and not listed anywhere on VPNgate, showing the need for actually testing the VPNs and figuring out the output IPs are my bot does. Can this IP please be WP:OPP blocked? 121.179.23.53 (talk) 06:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can confirm this is me! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 06:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- There is a relevant Phabricator ticket: T380917. – DreamRimmer (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think non-admins can run admin bots. Perhaps you would like to publicly post your source code, then ask an admin to run it? cc Daniel Quinlan. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think blocking a single VPN provider will have the effect people want it to have. It's easy for a disruptive editor to switch VPNs. This is really a problem that needs to be solved by WMF. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 15:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Daniel Quinlan, I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the post but this is designed to work with existing WMF proposals that are being worked on. Both T380917 and T354599 block/give higher edit filter scrutiny based on existing lists of "bad" IPs, this is the same as the old ST47ProxyBot (which actually does scanning but doesn't monitor "egress" IPs, it only attempts to connect to the "ingress" and then blocks it if successfully). This is great for a wide variety of proxy services because ingress/egress is the same, but for modern, more advanced services like VPNgate (and perhaps some services that because a problem for us in future) the ingress IP address is often not the same as the one used to edit Wikipedia, and so requires this solution (this bot). I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Wikipedia, and by blocking it this significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks. This also creates the infrastructure for easily blocking any future VPN services that use different ingress/egress IPs - the bot can be easily expanded to use new lists. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 21:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- What is the actual expected volume per day of new IPs to block? It looks like the current list has 98 ingress IPs (if I'm understanding the configuration blocks correctly). I'll also say I have pretty strong concerns about sharing "personal" tokens of any kind between users, particularly admin permission ones with non-admins. Skynxnex (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- The list available through this API frequently rotates. It only provides 98 ingress IPs at a time, as you stated and refetching the list without [some duration of time, from my estimates it's around 1 hour] passing returns the same 98 IPs. After 1 hour (estimated) passes, a new 98 IPs are randomly selected to be provided to all users - but these may include some of the same IPs as before because they are picked by random selection from the whole list of 6057 (not available to the public), this has happened a couple times during my data gathering. Therefore re volume per hour, the maximum number of IPs to be blocked is 98, but it could be less due to already blocked IPs being included in that given hour's sample of 98, I hope this makes sense if there's anything that needs clarifying please don't hesitate to ask. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 21:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Re "personal" tokens it's actually not a "personal" token to the admin's account, it would be (in theory) a token to an adminbot account with the only things it can be used for being those helpfully specified by Anomie above. However, regardless I see the concerns so I've added a proposal 5 which hopefully is a decent compromise above and ensures that I don't have access to any admin perms/tokens, but that there aren't any bottlenecks and that admins don't need to setup a complex running environment. Thank you for your time in commenting, Skynxnex. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 22:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see bot tokens as fairly similar to personal tokens since bots are associated with an operator. I think proposal 5 has promise. Skynxnex (talk) 23:08, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Re "personal" tokens it's actually not a "personal" token to the admin's account, it would be (in theory) a token to an adminbot account with the only things it can be used for being those helpfully specified by Anomie above. However, regardless I see the concerns so I've added a proposal 5 which hopefully is a decent compromise above and ensures that I don't have access to any admin perms/tokens, but that there aren't any bottlenecks and that admins don't need to setup a complex running environment. Thank you for your time in commenting, Skynxnex. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 22:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- VPN Gate claims they have about 6,000 servers which is fairly close to my own estimate of how many IPs they are using. If we block each IP for six months, we'd end up averaging about 33 blocks per day. There would be a pretty large influx at the start, but I would want to spread that out over at least several weeks to avoid flooding the block log as badly as ST47ProxyBot did. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that an unknown amount of 'servers' are user computers that people have volunteered cpu time for (this information is somewhere on the website), so, like we see often with IP users, the IP that each server uses can and likely will change with time. This doesn't mean that an effort like this bot won't help, of course, but it's unknown how effective (as a percentage) it would be with just 33 blocks a day. – 2804:F1...33:D1A2 (::/32) (talk) 23:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- 33 blocks per day is a rough estimate, not a limit. Certainly there will be some delay when adding entries to any list generated as proposed above so the block rate will never reach 100%, but the egress IPs don't seem to change that much over time based on what I've seen. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 00:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- So, I'm posting this anonymously through VPNGate because I don't want people to start suspecting me of things just because I admit to having used a VPN service some others are abusing to make disruptive edits here. Due to its strong base in Japan, I've used VPNGate many times in order to shop at Japanese web stores that block purchases from outside Japan (they typically don't want to offer international support and see this as the easiest solution for avoiding that), and I know a number of other people who've used it for similar reasons (also for Korea, which often has even more hosts available than Japan).
- In any case, while I've personally never enabled this on my PC, I can confirm what IP 2804: said: there's definitely a swarm of short-term volunteer IPs associated with this service who aren't part of VPNGate proper. The overlap between such people and good faith Wikipedia editors may not be large, but it's unlikely to be zero. Unless you have a good mechanism to avoid excessively punishing such users for popping up on your list for the short period of time they themselves use the VPN, maybe it's better to wait for and official WMF solution, which (based on the phabs) seems to intend to take "IP reputation" into account and would thus likely exclude such ephemerals, or at least give them very short term blocks compared to the main servers. Because getting blocked here for several months for having been part of VPNGate for a few hours hardly seems fair.
- Actually, now that I think about it: if you're going to connect to VPNGate servers for the express purpose of determining and blocking their exit IPs, you'd probably be in violation of their TOS. While you might consider this an "ends justifying the means" situation, are you sure you want to associate the WMF with such unauthorized usage? There's a difference between port scanning or getting an IP list via an API and actually traversing the VPN in order to investigate it. This absolutely is not a legal threat by me, but if VPNGate were to learn of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they took action. Aren't there enough services out there that provide VPN IP lists without having to roll your own scanner? It would seem a safer bet for the WMF to use something like that. 125.161.156.63 (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, you didn't have to anonymise yourself, we don't cast WP:ASPERSIONS here and now you won't get a reply notification but that's okay! :) I checked the terms of service of their website before making their bot and it just says not to do anything IRL illegal otherwise they'll give your logged data to authorities if subpoenaed, but I will reach out to the VPNgate operators in Japanese (good practice opportunity, huh) when I have time just to double-confirm they're okay with everything. But btw, they encourage checking that your IP has changed to demonstrate it has worked in their how-to-guides, and this isn't 'tranaversing" as we're not collecting data on every single node but only the public IP of the exit node. Re short-term volunteers, that's a great point, and I'll update the JSON schema of its published data to include a "number of sightings" number, so that the blocking adminbot would escalate blocks as this increases so maybe it starts really short term like 2.5 days/60 hours (6000 active volunteers on average, divided by 100 checked every hour, minimum time to ensure the IP has truly stopped) if it's just 1 sighting but ramps up exponentially if it's seen again as an egress IP untill we're talking like 6months - 2 years blocks. Re WMF tickets, the distributed fact of VPNgate that anyone can start hosting means that most VPNgate IP addresses won't have a bad "reputation" (I checked a whole bunch on a variety of reputation lists and the egresses always had "good"" reputations) so reputation checking won't help (but they need short term blocks), also as you can't publically see the egress with VPNgate cause it's different to ingress (unlike most networks). So WMF solutions are actually quite innovative and smart for most VPN/proxy networks, it's just that VPNgate is a bit different needing a unique solution, this bot. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 04:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I'm just too careful or chicken even if most people would refrain from casting aspersions.
- I don't quite understand why you say you're not traversing. You're not just touching the network from one side, you're passing through it and coming out on the other side, that's traversing. However if they don't mind it, then I guess you're in luck. Ecxept maybe if those Japanese laws they mention a mllion times in their documents have a problem with something like this.
- I don't know what the WMF is basing its reputation measurements on. My meaning was that sites like browserleaks.com almost always seem to know about the VPN status of the exit nodes I've used over time. I don't know where they're getting this information from exactly, but that's what I meant by reputation, not whether they're good or bad but what they're known to engage in, like being a VPN node. And that database is probabably built either through collaboration or by specialized services, which the WNF can use as well. Like email providers use common antispam databases instead of each rolling their own.
- In any case, good luck with your bot, because I'm afraid these persistent abusers you want to keep out by this probably won't be averse to paying for commercial VPNs if they have to, and many of those only cost a handful of bucks a month. Commercial companies will almost certainly have a TOS that would prohibit your bot, so to counter them the WMF would in the end still have to resort to a specialist or collaborative VPN IP list of some kind. You can probably cut down on casual troublemakers by tracking VPNGate but I don't think it'll help all that much much against anyone highly motivated. They can even continue using VPNGate, it'll just be less convenient because they have to find brand new nodes before you catch those.
- 92.253.31.37 (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by "Japanese Laws" they keep mentioning they don't seem to mention any, when I told you that the ToS said don't do anything irl illegal I was referring to this ToS page which doesn't mention any "Japanese Laws" but just says don't do anything like CSAM like your government can subpoena us for, because we'll comply (and directions for LEOs to request this). Re reputation yes, the major VPNgate nodes that have done it for a while do have bad reputations, particularly 219.100.37.0/24 which is the example servers run by the university themselves - but as you said, because anyone can start a VPNgate server and then there's always brand new nodes that won't have bad reputations and can be abused. But - as I've stated in a different discussion above, the list of VPN servers to connect to only updates with new servers hourly, so while reputation services won't catch the new exit nodes (because they won't be used poorly enough to trigger flagging for a white), the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs. Re commercial services generally, unlike VPNgate, they use datacenters and static IPs that are assigned to "Hotspot Shield, Inc." (as an example) so it's easy to CIDR range block them and also the reputation of those deteriorates over time as they do bad things - the companies don't randomly get new IPs in random locations around the world, like VPNgate. In fact commercial reputation services excel at identifying commercial services (from my testing), but VPNgate is community distributed, like Wikipedia, and needs a unique approach. And yes, as I said to Daniel, I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Wikipedia (the bot currently has 146 IPs in its list and as shown by the stats section of the toolforge frontend, ~60% are currently unblocked (and this is an underestimate because the list is mainly the "obvious" ones that are always provided first in the 98 hourly sample, like 219.100.37.0/24. This is because the bot has only had 1 full run of all IPs in a given hour's list, and many failed partial runs of just the first couple. I think blocking VPNgate significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks - only looking at only 10 of the blocked IPs I see link spam, edit warring, block evasion, vandalism and our favourite WP:LTA. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 08:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- They mention Japanese laws repeatedly in the texts shown when you click the licence and notice buttons under Help > About of the SoftEther VPN Client Manager. It's a canned statement saying they only comply with Japanese laws because they can't possibly follow every law worldwide.
the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs
Are you going to run multiple instances of the bot in parallel, because the 98 IP list you get per hour seems far from sufficient for make claims about a strong level of protection if there are ~6000 egresses, many of which churn. With your current setup, an abuser can get their own list refresh, which would be different from what the bot gets, run it past your very helpful :) IP check tool and then make edits from any IP not covered. Which may not be many, but they only need one out of their 98, so it's likely they'll get something as long as the volunteer swarm keeps changing.- Getting a bit more facetious, VPNGate could conversely determine the IP of your bot and block it as a censorship agent. :) I really think it contradicts the spirit of their operation even if they haven't prohibited it explicitly, since you don't happen to be a state agent. This is just my conjecture, but I'm guessing that if you looked at your IP list edits without focusing solely on the abuse, you'd also see constructive edits coming from them, quite possibly from people using VPNGate to bypass state firewalls. I am well aware of Wikipedia open proxy policy, but it can make editing somewhat difficult for such people.
- These remain my two sticking points: while useful, the bot won't be quite as effective as you represent; and you're arguably abusing their service to operate yours.
- Once this bot starts issuing blocks, you should probably amend Help:I have been blocked to include verbiage about having used a VPN in the recent past, because this situation isn't really covered by the "you are using a VPN" or collateral damage statements. 211.220.201.217 (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- VPNgate does not have as firm of a ground as you claim. Yes, companies have terms of use and those terms of use often have clauses of disputes being filed in their local country. However, as multiple attourneys have pointed out, this local dispute solving when dealing with an customer from abroad does not really work. In reality, VPNgate is forced to deal with international laws, because otherwise they will just lose their case. (one of the legal opinions supporting this: https://svamc.org/cross-border-business-disputes-company-use-international-arbitration/ )
- As far as blocks go, yes, they could block one user, but let me remind you that there are 120,000 active wikipedia users. The script could just be passed on between users until all of their IP ranges are blocked. They would lose that war, every time. Snævar (talk) 20:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't recall claiming anything about firm ground. I have a problem with the WMF or parties associated with it engaging in somewhat questionable practices, even if it is for a good cause. I'm OK with port scanning or getting data from an API, because that's external probing, but actually passing through someone's premises with the intent of later restricting their users is something I find objectionable, and it is my conjecture that VPNGate would think likewise. If VPNGate blocked one user's bot, that would simply be an indication that they object to such activities, and having a million other users on the ready to take over would change nothing about that, and I'm fairly certain the WMF does not subscribe to this sort of hackerish way of thinking anyway. VPNGate aren't outlaws against whom anything goes, they operate a prefectly legitimate service, albeit one that some people abuse. It's also possible that it's just me, and VPNGate themselves have no objection to any of this. The OP was going to ask them, so I presume they'll inform everyone about the response sometime soon. 220.81.178.129 (talk) 11:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this is definitely not something that should be adversarial or "us against them" and if they express concerns about this behaviour, we should totally not try and evade it - after all VPNgate does share our mission of spreading free knowledge to the world (and are very useful to spreading Wikipedia and other websites around the globe, it's just some bad actors taking advantage of the kind service of both the university and the volunteers creating a problem). We just need to find a way to work together to ensure that we both can continue to do our things. Being the holiday season, it's pretty busy for me and I'm sure the same is true for the operators so I will reach out in the new year re their thoughts on this. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 04:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't recall claiming anything about firm ground. I have a problem with the WMF or parties associated with it engaging in somewhat questionable practices, even if it is for a good cause. I'm OK with port scanning or getting data from an API, because that's external probing, but actually passing through someone's premises with the intent of later restricting their users is something I find objectionable, and it is my conjecture that VPNGate would think likewise. If VPNGate blocked one user's bot, that would simply be an indication that they object to such activities, and having a million other users on the ready to take over would change nothing about that, and I'm fairly certain the WMF does not subscribe to this sort of hackerish way of thinking anyway. VPNGate aren't outlaws against whom anything goes, they operate a prefectly legitimate service, albeit one that some people abuse. It's also possible that it's just me, and VPNGate themselves have no objection to any of this. The OP was going to ask them, so I presume they'll inform everyone about the response sometime soon. 220.81.178.129 (talk) 11:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi! The abuser can't get their own list refresh seperate from what the bot sees, I guess I wasn't clear before but what I meant was that everyone gets the same 98 IPs every hour, and then the next hour another 98 are randomly selected to be shown to everyone.
- Re censroship/state agencies this doesn't help state agents or censorship at all, because they want to block the input/ingress IP addresses that citizens would use to connect to the VPN network, and knowing the egress that the VPN network uses to connect to servers doesn't help them at all. I have clarified this in the README.md now so anyone who sees the project will know that it can't be used for censorship.
- Re users bypassing state firewalls, they can still read and if they want to edit we have WP:ACC for that (abusers could go through acc I guess, but then they can't block evade once their account gets indef'ed - and VPNgate has been used a lot by link spammers, people who want to edit war (especially someone who got really upset about castes, I've seen a lot of edit warring from detected IPs about that) to evade the blocks on their main account).
- Btw, thank you for calling my tool helpful, I'm not the best at UI design but I tried to put some effort in and make it looks nice and have useful functions. Thank you to you as well for your time in providing soooo much helpful feedback to make the bot better. :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 03:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also thanks for reminding me to provide guidance to users on this, I think the current WP:OPP block message doesn't really fit with the VPNgate mode of temporary volunteers (who the user effected might not even know about but could get a dynamic assignment with an IP blocked for a few days). I'll make a custom block template! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 03:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Tada I guess... {{Blocked VPNgate}} Anyone reading this please feel comfortable to be WP:BOLD and make it better if you'd like, it's still a very early draft. :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 10:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- While tone of you thanks seems to include some aspersions :), you're welcome if what I've said has helped you. If the list is the same for everyone, you can indeed be a lot more effective. My point about censorship was less about you helping state censors and more about you using the loophole that VPNGate haven't said anything about private actors, and giving the impression that abuse is the only thing it is being used for. 220.81.178.129 (talk) 11:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh no I'm really sad now, please don't take my tone when I thanked you in the wrong way (it can be both hard to express and pick up on the internet)! Maybe saying "sooooo" was a bit over the top, but you've genuinely gone back and forth with me a lot of times and always written detailed, logical suggestions or concerns to help, so genuinely, no sarcasm, thank you!!! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 04:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- All right then, and sorry about my tendency to lean a bit on the paranoid side. 159.146.72.149 (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's so fine! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 05:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- How feasible would it be to make the list of IPs private/admin-only? I mean, they're still going to get blocked, and that's public, but I feel like making a public list, even if one may or may not already exist, might be an unnecessary step?
- If I ran a VPN service I'd be a lot less upset about Wikipedia defending itself than Wikipedia creating a public up-to-date list of VPN IPs that everyone can use, without effort, to mass block most of my VPN. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 02:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure, I don't think there's a way to restrict viewing a page on EnWiki (I could whip up a MediaWiki extension enabling "read protection" of a page, but I doubt the WMF would install it), but we do have things like checkuserwiki, arbcomwiki etc. which have limited viewership so prep haps the bot could operate on a new antiabusewiki (but this would require even more work from WMF than installing the extension) and then a stewardbot could issue global blocks from there? I would also have to take down molecularbot2.toolforge.org and the GitHub repo (that anyone could just download code and run it to get their own list). But even if we don't have a list, it's trivial to query the MediaWiki API for block status (that's what the toolforge tool does in addition to seeing if the IP is listed at User:MolecularBot/IPData.json when you lookup an IP or generate stats), there's very high ratelimits for this, and you just need to check if the block reason is {{Blocked VPNgate}} or whatever message the adminbot/stewardbot leaves. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 04:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- All right then, and sorry about my tendency to lean a bit on the paranoid side. 159.146.72.149 (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh no I'm really sad now, please don't take my tone when I thanked you in the wrong way (it can be both hard to express and pick up on the internet)! Maybe saying "sooooo" was a bit over the top, but you've genuinely gone back and forth with me a lot of times and always written detailed, logical suggestions or concerns to help, so genuinely, no sarcasm, thank you!!! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 04:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also thanks for reminding me to provide guidance to users on this, I think the current WP:OPP block message doesn't really fit with the VPNgate mode of temporary volunteers (who the user effected might not even know about but could get a dynamic assignment with an IP blocked for a few days). I'll make a custom block template! :) MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 03:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- They mention Japanese laws repeatedly in the texts shown when you click the licence and notice buttons under Help > About of the SoftEther VPN Client Manager. It's a canned statement saying they only comply with Japanese laws because they can't possibly follow every law worldwide.
- I'm not sure what you mean by "Japanese Laws" they keep mentioning they don't seem to mention any, when I told you that the ToS said don't do anything irl illegal I was referring to this ToS page which doesn't mention any "Japanese Laws" but just says don't do anything like CSAM like your government can subpoena us for, because we'll comply (and directions for LEOs to request this). Re reputation yes, the major VPNgate nodes that have done it for a while do have bad reputations, particularly 219.100.37.0/24 which is the example servers run by the university themselves - but as you said, because anyone can start a VPNgate server and then there's always brand new nodes that won't have bad reputations and can be abused. But - as I've stated in a different discussion above, the list of VPN servers to connect to only updates with new servers hourly, so while reputation services won't catch the new exit nodes (because they won't be used poorly enough to trigger flagging for a white), the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs. Re commercial services generally, unlike VPNgate, they use datacenters and static IPs that are assigned to "Hotspot Shield, Inc." (as an example) so it's easy to CIDR range block them and also the reputation of those deteriorates over time as they do bad things - the companies don't randomly get new IPs in random locations around the world, like VPNgate. In fact commercial reputation services excel at identifying commercial services (from my testing), but VPNgate is community distributed, like Wikipedia, and needs a unique approach. And yes, as I said to Daniel, I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Wikipedia (the bot currently has 146 IPs in its list and as shown by the stats section of the toolforge frontend, ~60% are currently unblocked (and this is an underestimate because the list is mainly the "obvious" ones that are always provided first in the 98 hourly sample, like 219.100.37.0/24. This is because the bot has only had 1 full run of all IPs in a given hour's list, and many failed partial runs of just the first couple. I think blocking VPNgate significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks - only looking at only 10 of the blocked IPs I see link spam, edit warring, block evasion, vandalism and our favourite WP:LTA. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 08:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I'm just too careful or chicken even if most people would refrain from casting aspersions.
- Oh, you didn't have to anonymise yourself, we don't cast WP:ASPERSIONS here and now you won't get a reply notification but that's okay! :) I checked the terms of service of their website before making their bot and it just says not to do anything IRL illegal otherwise they'll give your logged data to authorities if subpoenaed, but I will reach out to the VPNgate operators in Japanese (good practice opportunity, huh) when I have time just to double-confirm they're okay with everything. But btw, they encourage checking that your IP has changed to demonstrate it has worked in their how-to-guides, and this isn't 'tranaversing" as we're not collecting data on every single node but only the public IP of the exit node. Re short-term volunteers, that's a great point, and I'll update the JSON schema of its published data to include a "number of sightings" number, so that the blocking adminbot would escalate blocks as this increases so maybe it starts really short term like 2.5 days/60 hours (6000 active volunteers on average, divided by 100 checked every hour, minimum time to ensure the IP has truly stopped) if it's just 1 sighting but ramps up exponentially if it's seen again as an egress IP untill we're talking like 6months - 2 years blocks. Re WMF tickets, the distributed fact of VPNgate that anyone can start hosting means that most VPNgate IP addresses won't have a bad "reputation" (I checked a whole bunch on a variety of reputation lists and the egresses always had "good"" reputations) so reputation checking won't help (but they need short term blocks), also as you can't publically see the egress with VPNgate cause it's different to ingress (unlike most networks). So WMF solutions are actually quite innovative and smart for most VPN/proxy networks, it's just that VPNgate is a bit different needing a unique solution, this bot. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 04:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that an unknown amount of 'servers' are user computers that people have volunteered cpu time for (this information is somewhere on the website), so, like we see often with IP users, the IP that each server uses can and likely will change with time. This doesn't mean that an effort like this bot won't help, of course, but it's unknown how effective (as a percentage) it would be with just 33 blocks a day. – 2804:F1...33:D1A2 (::/32) (talk) 23:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- The list available through this API frequently rotates. It only provides 98 ingress IPs at a time, as you stated and refetching the list without [some duration of time, from my estimates it's around 1 hour] passing returns the same 98 IPs. After 1 hour (estimated) passes, a new 98 IPs are randomly selected to be provided to all users - but these may include some of the same IPs as before because they are picked by random selection from the whole list of 6057 (not available to the public), this has happened a couple times during my data gathering. Therefore re volume per hour, the maximum number of IPs to be blocked is 98, but it could be less due to already blocked IPs being included in that given hour's sample of 98, I hope this makes sense if there's anything that needs clarifying please don't hesitate to ask. MolecularPilot 🧪️✈️ 21:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Why are frwiki talk pages so much nicer than ours?
[edit]Take a look at (for example) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Oracle#Li_M'H%C3%A2_Ong_(2). This seems to be typical of talk pages on frwiki. The threading of replies is so much easier to follow. Is this just some snazzier CSS they're using, or something fundamentally better to edit the pages? RoySmith (talk) 01:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like just some snazzy CSS. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see no reason not to adopt the CSS over here, or some other form of threaded discussion by default.JayCubby 01:22, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are some gadgets that support it. I think ConvenientDiscussions is one of them. I'm not a general fan of the styling. Izno (talk) 02:08, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- A screenshot of Convenient Discussions for reference:
- Threads are collapsible, and a change is coming that would allow to collapse/expand all replies to a comment in one click, similar to how you can do that on Reddit with a +/− button.And, of course, pure CSS is only a half-solution here since markup and HTML produced by it are trickier and don't correspond to the actual comment structure as one-to-one. Jack who built the house (talk) 05:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'd love to see that too! – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 23:06, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are some gadgets that support it. I think ConvenientDiscussions is one of them. I'm not a general fan of the styling. Izno (talk) 02:08, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I created my own experimental CSS stylesheet to add style formatting to discussion threads; see User:Isaacl/style/discussion-threads for an example of how it looks and instructions on using it. There is an accompanying user script to temporarily turn the style formatting off for the current page, should you want to see how the page looks by default. isaacl (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't personally like that layout, but the customer is always correct in matters of taste I suppose? It's just styling hacks (see without). frwiki has thousands of lines of custom css being loaded by default (e.g. from w:fr:MediaWiki:common.css , w:fr:MediaWiki:Vector-2022.css, w:fr:MediaWiki:Gadget-Mobile.css). Someone could write a "pretty talk pages" script here, and if it was popular we could make it available as a gadget. — xaosflux Talk 14:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- What's been done in the past is A/B testing of different gimmicks by the WMF. I'd be curious to see the rate of abandoned comments now versus with a shiny new layout is. JayCubby 15:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- My stylesheet continues to be used by (double-checks)... only me. I like it, but it's not evident yet that there's a significant demand for different styling of discussion threads. isaacl (talk) 18:17, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- That looks HIDEOUS. All the boxes and colors distract me from the text. I would find it harder to follow those conversations. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- The threading is entirely frwiki's custom CSS. It's pretty easy to do, with how talk pages use nested definition-list syntax for discussions already;
body.ext-discussiontools-replytool-enabled dd { border-left: 2px solid lavender; padding-left: 1ex; }
gets you about 95% of the way there. There's plenty of room to get fancier, of course. (And sometime people use unordered lists instead, which would need to be handled separately.) - There's also a visible difference since enwiki is the only place that the DiscussionTools "visual enhancements" haven't been turned on yet (T379102). That's why they have the fancier thread summaries in the topic list and under the headings, and the more button-like reply links. If you're curious what that'd be like here, you can turn it on with the dtenable URL parameter.
- We did experiment with going much further in page-reformatting with DiscussionTools as well. You can see our structure-debug page for an example of that. It's actually what the talk pages in the mobile apps use now -- they get the talk page data from the DiscussionTools API and build the view from that, rather than from the normal wikitext render. DLynch (WMF) (talk) 16:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- This looks so cool! I'm really looking forward to it on enwiki :) any way I can opt-in to DiscussionTools improvements like this sooner? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 03:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- You can enable DiscussionTools in the beta menu. I don't know where that's located in Vector 2022's menu (I use MonoBook), but it's in there. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 04:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Right, I have it on, but it looks like FrWiki and other wikis are using a newer version with more features (which is what I'm interested in). – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 19:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- You can enable DiscussionTools in the beta menu. I don't know where that's located in Vector 2022's menu (I use MonoBook), but it's in there. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 04:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, those boxes don't show up on mobile. That issue, combined with the fact that replies aren't as far apart in the new version, makes it harder for mobile users to tell who is replying to who compared to the current version. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- This looks so cool! I'm really looking forward to it on enwiki :) any way I can opt-in to DiscussionTools improvements like this sooner? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 03:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Woah, it looks like MediaWiki has an even nicer talk page GUI? Any way I can enable that on all wikis? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 19:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have since learned that this would be a terrible idea. (I still like the look, though, and it would be great to have some way to sort threads by age.) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be indeed great to have more control over sorting threads, especially since there are a number of wikis (including the main wiki I contribute to, Russian Wikipedia) which have to resort to bad hacks to display certain forum pages in recent-oldest sorting order and not oldest-recent as it is default. It would’ve been great to see these hacks made obsolete with DiscussionTools, see phab:T313165, but AFAIK no one actively develops it any more, so I guess we’ll have to wait till WMF decides to fund it again. stjn 21:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's Flow. It failed for complicated reasons, has limped along unmaintained since 2016-ish, and is currently in the process of being completely removed now that DiscussionTools was deployed as the outcome of the 2019 talk pages consultation. DLynch (WMF) (talk) 20:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is also as ugly as homemade sin. Way too much whitespace.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:47, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have since learned that this would be a terrible idea. (I still like the look, though, and it would be great to have some way to sort threads by age.) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Undesirable (and new?) line wrapping
[edit]I don't know if it's just me noticing something that has been there for a long time, or if something new is happening, or if my CSS or browser is to blame, but I am noticing undesirable line wrapping that I have not seen before. I am seeing references after full stops (periods) that wrap to the next line. I'm seeing the ")" in "f/16)" (in the lead of Exposure value) wrapping to the next line. And I think one other kind of wrapping that should not be happening but that I can't remember at the moment. I don't think this sort of wrapping was happening before; references stayed with the preceding punctuation, and a closing parenthesis would stay with the text that preceded it. I could be wrong or misremembering, of course. My gut feeling is that I just started noticing it in the last month or so.
If it's just me, I'll live with it, but I thought I would post here to see if this prompts anyone else to chime in. I am using Vector 2022 on the latest Firefox for Mac OS. I can link to example pages and even provide screen shots as needed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I am seeing references after full stops (periods) that wrap to the next line.
- This has unfortunately always been the case. I found Phab tasks and comments documenting this going back to 2016: T100112#2027495, T125480. There have been cases where line wrapping around references behaved even worse than that (interesting ones I found: T96487, T110057, T132255), and those have been fixed.
I'm seeing the ")" in "f/16)" (in the lead of Exposure value) wrapping to the next line
- I can reproduce this, screenshot for reference: F58028918. This is caused by using
display: inline-block;
in the template {{f/}} (basically the same issue as T110057 mentioned above, actually). It was added not quite a year ago: [1]. I'm not sure what these rules are for, but someone could probably find a way to do this differently and avoid the problem. And I think one other kind of wrapping that should not be happening but that I can't remember at the moment.
- Well, it's a bit tricky to guess from that ;), but my crystal ball shows me you're thinking of T353005, where some error and warning messages now break words with hyphens when wrapping lines, starting also about a year ago. I heard a few people complain about that and I find it a bit unpleasant myself. Did I guess right?
- Matma Rex talk 01:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Adding a
‍
after the span in {{f/}}, as shown in Special:Diff/1263967231, would at least fix the issue in that template. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 17:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Adding a
- The problem with NOT wrapping (especially when dictated by templates), is that it works for 90% of the cases. But there is also the 10% of cases where the value is too small to fit in the infobox or on a mobile screen in 1 line. But the templates can't make that distinction, so it's generally a bad idea to put 'no wrap' as a default in a template. Overall it is better to depend on the browser to mostly do things right and not fret too much about the occasional times that it gets it wrong. Because flipping that assumption around tends to create harder to maintain wikitext that gets it wrong about the same or even more often. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the responses. As I said, I really can't tell if I'm seeing something new, or if I noticed one and now the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is in effect. If I see something really egregious, I'll take a screen shot. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:50, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
contentious topics/aware plus "topic code"
[edit]i want to add the contentious topics/aware template to the top of my talkpage, but the list of topic codes says to substitute the template so i did but the israel/palestine topic code did not display. how do i include the topic code? Daddyelectrolux (talk) 19:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Daddyelectrolux You don't need to subst that template, you would just do
{{Contentious topics/aware|a-i}}
. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:51, 19 December 2024 (UTC)- the topic codes page states that the template should be substituted. perhaps that should be removed, to avoid new people from make my same mistake? thank you User:Ahecht. :) Daddyelectrolux (talk) 00:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Daddyelectrolux: You wanted to use Template:Contentious topics/aware which doesn't say to use subst. Template:Contentious topics/table is used to document other templates and it varies whether they require subst. I have added this to the documentation.[2] PrimeHunter (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- To be fair, up until yesterday Template:Contentious topics/aware/doc just linked to Template:Contentious topics/table. I updated it so that it properly transcludes the table, which hides the
subst:
syntax. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- To be fair, up until yesterday Template:Contentious topics/aware/doc just linked to Template:Contentious topics/table. I updated it so that it properly transcludes the table, which hides the
- @Daddyelectrolux: You wanted to use Template:Contentious topics/aware which doesn't say to use subst. Template:Contentious topics/table is used to document other templates and it varies whether they require subst. I have added this to the documentation.[2] PrimeHunter (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- the topic codes page states that the template should be substituted. perhaps that should be removed, to avoid new people from make my same mistake? thank you User:Ahecht. :) Daddyelectrolux (talk) 00:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Updating broken JavaScript user script for adding a template to RefToolbar 2.0
[edit]Hi! Hopefully this is the right place to put this. Template:Cite RCDB's documentation contains a suggested user script to add the template to RefToolbar 2.0. However, it imports User:Mr.Z-man/refToolbar 2.0.js, which hasn't been a think since 2013. On the page is now a note saying "This script is now enabled by default." The existing script, however, does not work out of the box, throwing the error below. If someone who knows JS could help modify the script to work without the linked user script, that would be great!
VM385:2 Uncaught ReferenceError: $j is not defined at <anonymous>:2:913 at globalEval (startup.js:1141:17) at runScript (startup.js:1292:6) at enqueue (startup.js:1179:5) at execute (startup.js:1399:5) at doPropagation (startup.js:748:6)
Plighting Engineerd (talk) 01:38, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- The instructions were VERY VERY outdated. I have updated them and tested the 'new' fragment and it works. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much! Works perfectly now! Plighting Engineerd (talk) 13:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Site is under maintenance
[edit]I was unable to complete an edit a few minutes ago. I got an error message saying the site was under maintenance. Clicking on "back" did get me the edit I was trying to make and a few seconds later I was successful.
I posted just for documentation but I am having difficulty with a site that is very slow and I came here to do an edit to have something to do while waiting for pages on that slow site to come up. The slow site slows everything else down.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Blacklisted website not on any blacklist
[edit]I wanted to save an edit containing a link to tradingview.com but it keeps showing a message:
"Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist or Wikimedia's global blacklist. [...] The following link has triggered a protection filter: tradingview.com [...]"
So I tried to figure out whether I shouldn't use that website as a source and on what blacklist that website is supposed to be but I couldn't find anything. Is that a bug? Killarnee (talk) 14:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's on the global blacklist at meta:Spam blacklist. Anomie⚔ 14:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah. It was added in October 2017. See the request and link report. – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) Please do not ping on reply. 14:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hm now I found it too, somehow the find tool in Safari wasn't able to find it. Thanks you both. Looks like I have to search for another source. Killarnee (talk) 14:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
When I try to view this special page I just get the following error:
[8f6642e6-42f2-4bba-8e7d-01bac9220c2f] 2024-12-21 18:40:02: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\RequestTimeout\RequestTimeoutException"
Is anyone else getting this error when viewing that page? Thanks. 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:E9BC:B9ED:405A:596B (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- It works now. Problems come and go. I had to restart my phone half an hour ago to get something to work. Extra: That was a problem with an app on my phone (nothing to do with Wikipedia). Johnuniq (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see a similar error when I try to check logs for Special:Log/ProcseeBot. [1d666f00-ed84-4e73-928d-04edc6edc844] 2024-12-22 10:33:05: Fatal exception of type 'Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryTimeoutError'. – DreamRimmer (talk) 10:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Likely also worth noting that, above the error, it says
To avoid creating high database load, this query was aborted because the duration exceeded the limit.
Though I suppose that's the definition of a timeout... – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) Please do not ping on reply. 15:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Likely also worth noting that, above the error, it says
- Tracked at phab:T325062. – DreamRimmer (talk) 18:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Colors of images in {{Infobox government agency}} are inverted in the dark mode
[edit]When the {{Infobox government agency}} template is included into some page, SVG images inside it have their colors inverted if the dark mode is on. See, for example, the article United States Department of State, specifically the seal: it should have dark blue outter ring, white inner circle with a brown eagle, but instead you can see the seal with a bluish-white outter ring, black inner circle with an orange eagle. Looked at several other infobox templates, none of them have a simmilar issue. Also, only vector images are affected by this, raster images are not. I wanted to try to debug it, but the template is fully protected. Tohaomg (talk) 17:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Tohaomg it's most likely this edit by @Jonesey95: that has introduced the behaviour. Probably best discussed at Template talk:Infobox government agency. Nthep (talk) 18:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- See the previous discussion. A more comprehensive fix is welcome. The sandbox is open for anyone to edit. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is not an acceptable solution, please revert. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 20:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- The reason skin-invert worked for signatures was that white writing paper is common and even though colors in pens is varied, the most commonly used ones are dark.
- Logos are not created on the basis of a palette of colors, unlike signatures. Logos are created to be visible and understandable from far away and close up. As such, they should not be inverted at large.
- I consider the edit request in the template to be unactionable, as it did not ask for any particular solution, not even a hint at one. Snævar (talk) 23:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why people are continuing to reply here. This discussion will be lost in the archives of VPT; please post at the template talk page with comments, suggestions, proposed fixes, or requests. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95: I am not buying that argument for one second, also you are refusing to talk about the issue itself. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense. Most issues are solved during discussion not after, it being "lost in the archive" is a non starter as an argument. Clearly neither myself or Sjoerddebruin are going to move this discussion to the template talk page. If you continue attempting to refrain from discussing about the issue itself, consider this your first warning. I would also like to voice my disappointment of how you are handling this, I do expect better than this. Snævar (talk) 09:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Responding like this and bypassing the instructions that are clearly indicated at the top of the template page is really something, especially with an unsure edit summary. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 09:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wasn't discussing the issue here because of WP:MULTI. See the template's talk page for further discussion. I have reverted the change and continue to welcome a better way to fix the problem that was identified and that is still present. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Responding like this and bypassing the instructions that are clearly indicated at the top of the template page is really something, especially with an unsure edit summary. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 09:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95: I am not buying that argument for one second, also you are refusing to talk about the issue itself. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense. Most issues are solved during discussion not after, it being "lost in the archive" is a non starter as an argument. Clearly neither myself or Sjoerddebruin are going to move this discussion to the template talk page. If you continue attempting to refrain from discussing about the issue itself, consider this your first warning. I would also like to voice my disappointment of how you are handling this, I do expect better than this. Snævar (talk) 09:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why people are continuing to reply here. This discussion will be lost in the archives of VPT; please post at the template talk page with comments, suggestions, proposed fixes, or requests. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- See the previous discussion. A more comprehensive fix is welcome. The sandbox is open for anyone to edit. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Historical use of File:Wiki.png as the top-left logo
[edit]I wonder if anybody remembers some technical details of the use of File:Wiki.png for the logo in the top-left corner during the 2000s (not limited to enwiki). This discussion led me to asking this. I found some clues on Commons – quoting myself from the aforementioned discussion:
The log for File:Wiki.png shows two interesting entries:
- protection, 11 July 2005:
it's the sitewide logo in the upper left corner. Very bad if it were to get vandalized.- deletion, 7 October 2005:
block upload of local logos for other wikis. Commons now uses Image:Wiki-commons.png as the site-wide logo. See also Template:Deletion_requests#Image:Wiki.png.commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Archive/2005/09#Image:Wiki.png is also interesting. [...]:
Image:Wiki.png should be moved to a different name (already re-created at Image:Wiki-commons.png) as it currently is aliasing that name on every wiki project and therefore not allowing local logos on those projects. Tim has already changed the logo location, so it shouldn't break the commons logo, but we should wait about a week before moving it to give time for the caches to update. The logo is now hardcoded so there is no need to protect this specific image.
Does anybody remember any further details?
Thanks, Janhrach (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really remember, but we have historical records of the configuration going back to 2012. The current system, where logos of each wiki are stored in the configuration, was introduced in 2015 in change 209616 and other commits around that time. Wikis had the option to use the locally uploaded Wiki.png as a logo until 2017, when it was removed in change 359037. Alas I don't really know the historical context around these changes, I just found them in the history. Matma Rex talk 14:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Janhrach (talk) 14:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Log out
[edit]I keep logging out every time I close the browser on my phone. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 22:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do you have some sort of ad blocker or privacy thing enabled that isn't allowing you to save cookies perhaps ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- @TheDJ: I have some sort of ad blocker enabled. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Cat-a-lot gadget
[edit]Hi. To follow up a query a user had on my talk page, I wanted to see if there was any way that edits using Cat-a-lot could be marked as minor by default? At present there is now way I am aware of to mark these edits as minor. Alternatively, would there be another way these edits could be filtered out of watchlists? We have a tick box to hide "page categorization", so could they maybe be included in that for example? Thanks. Jevansen (talk) 23:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- commons:Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#Preferences says there's a preference for that, it also shows this image: commons:File:2013-03-31-Gadget-Cat-A-Lot-prefscreen.png... is that just outdated info? does the interface still look anything like that?
- Edit: erm, right, commons:Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#As your user gadget also shows how to set preferences with javascript, which I think is what you might have to do if there is no option (due to it not being a gadget on Wikipedia? You installed it as an user script, at least.) – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- Aha! The userscript you imported the gadget from (User:קיפודנחש/cat-a-lot.js, you import them here), manually sets the preference, including a
minor: false
! - I'm pretty sure you can overwrite that by just adding a line setting the preference after you import the script, but you could aso just copy their script into your common.js (replacing the import) and change that part to
minor: true
, that would also do what you want. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 02:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- Aha! The userscript you imported the gadget from (User:קיפודנחש/cat-a-lot.js, you import them here), manually sets the preference, including a
Is it unproblematic to use `lang=` spans in section headers?
[edit]Of course, I know it's wrong to use templates like {{lang}}
in section headers, but I know anchors work correctly in the transcluded HTML, so is there any reason a header like === <span lang="la">Tu quoque</span> ===
would break something? Remsense ‥ 论 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)