Talk:List of genocides: Difference between revisions
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{{Old move |date=22 December 2022 |from=List of genocides by death toll |destination=List of genocides |result=article moved |link=Special:Permalink/1136431848#Requested_move_22_December_2022}} |
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|author = Aaron Bandler |
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|title = Wikipedia Editors Add “Gaza Genocide” to “List of Genocides” Article |
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|date = November 3, 2024 |
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|org = [[The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles]] |
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|url = https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/376425/wikipedia-editors-add-gaza-genocide-to-list-of-genocides-article/ |
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|lang = |
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|quote = Wikipedia editors have officially added “Gaza genocide” to the “List of genocides” Wikipedia article following a discussion launched over the summer. |
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|archiveurl = |
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|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
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|accessdate = November 4, 2024 |
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|title2 = Wikipedia Editors Add Article Titled 'Gaza Genocide' to 'List of Genocides' Page |
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|url2 = https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-11-07/ty-article/.premium/wikipedia-editors-add-article-titled-gaza-genocide-to-list-of-genocides-page/00000193-0749-d3a2-a3d7-4f491b760000 |
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|date2 = November 7, 2024 |
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|org2 = [[Haaretz]] |
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|author2 = Rachel Fink |
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|quote2 = Because the list is presented in reverse chronological order, "Gaza genocide" now appears as the first entry. |
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|author3 = |
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|title3 = After Months of Debate – Wikipedia Describes Israel’s War on Gaza as ‘Genocide’ |
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|date3 = November 8, 2024 |
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|org3 = Palestine Chronicle |
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|url3 = https://www.palestinechronicle.com/after-months-of-debate-wikipedia-describes-israels-war-on-gaza-as-genocide/ |
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|lang3 = |
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|quote3 = Though this change does not hold legal significance, it could impact global public opinion culturally and politically. |
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|archiveurl3 = |
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|archivedate3 = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
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|accessdate3 = November 8, 2024 |
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|author4 = |
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|title4 = ‘It’s not close’ - Israel committing genocide concludes Wikipedia ending editorial debate |
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|date4 = November 8, 2024 |
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|org4 = [[Middle East Monitor]] |
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|url4 = https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241108-its-not-close-israel-committing-genocide-concludes-wikipedia-ending-editorial-debate/ |
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|lang4 = |
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|quote4 = The decision to include the Gaza genocide in the list followed Wikipedia’s formal Request for Comment process, which began in July. |
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|archiveurl4 = |
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|archivedate4 = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
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|accessdate4 = November 8, 2024 |
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{{Tmbox |
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|text={{Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate}} |
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'''Before writing a comment please read the comments below, and add yours in the most relevant section, or add a new section if nothing similar exists.''' |
'''Before writing a comment please read the comments below, and add yours in the most relevant section, or add a new section if nothing similar exists.''' |
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== Genocides against Tibetan and Uyghur peoples by the Chinese Communist Party. == |
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Indian genocides by Mughals and the European invaders is missing <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2603:6080:8E40:45:3D78:2D98:BA97:E052|2603:6080:8E40:45:3D78:2D98:BA97:E052]] ([[User talk:2603:6080:8E40:45:3D78:2D98:BA97:E052#top|talk]]) 02:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Where are the active genocides against the Muslim Uyghurs in China's Xinjiang province and against Tibetan Buddhists in Tibet? |
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== Requesting input on the addition of specific genocides in the Americas == |
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To call these atrocities anything other than genocide is a disgrace. If Israel's actions in Palestine can be called a genocide, then the CCP's ongoing attempt to exterminate and sinophy the Uyghur and Tibetan peoples and religions should absolutely be labelled a genocide. [[User:Jbak0905|Jbak0905]] ([[User talk:Jbak0905|talk]]) 09:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following seem to meet our criteria for inclusion in the list, but II want others input before I add any of them: |
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* {{strikethrough|[[1804 Haitian massacre|1804 Haitian Genocide]]<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Girard |first=Philippe R. |date=2005 |title=Caribbean genocide: racial war in Haiti, 1802–4 |url=https://doi.org/10.1080/00313220500106196 |journal=Patterns of Prejudice |volume=39 |issue=2 |pages=138–161 |doi=10.1080/00313220500106196 |s2cid=145204936 |issn=0031-322X |quote=The Haitian genocide and its historical counterparts [...] The 1804 Haitian genocide}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last1=Moses |first1=Dirk A. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pTfdAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA63 |title=Colonialism and Genocide |last2=Stone |first2=Dan |date=2013 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1-317-99753-5 |pages=63 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last=Forde |first=James |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=YfgEEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA40 |title=The Early Haitian State and the Question of Political Legitimacy: American and British Representations of Haiti, 1804—1824 |date=2020 |publisher=Springer |isbn=978-3-030-52608-5 |pages=40 |language=en}}</ref>}} |
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* [[Conquest of the Desert]]<ref>[http://www.bbk.ac.uk/llc/subjects/span_lat_amer/span_lat_amer_staff/ja Andermann, Jens]. [http://www.bbk.ac.uk/ibamuseum/texts/Andermann02.htm ''Argentine Literature and the 'Conquest of the Desert', 1872-1896''], [[Birkbeck, University of London]]. Quote: "It is this sudden acceleration, this abrupt change from the discourse of 'defensive warfare' and 'merciful civilization' to that of 'offensive warfare' and of genocide, which is perhaps the most distinctive mark of the literature of the Argentine frontier."</ref><ref>''The Argentine Military and the Boundary Dispute With Chile, 1870-1902,'' George V. Rauch, p. 47, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1999</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/13/argentinian-founding-father-genocide-row |title=Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer |first=Rory |last=Carroll |newspaper=[[The Guardian]] |date=13 January 2011 }}</ref> |
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* {{strikethrough|[[Massacre of Salsipuedes]]<ref>{{Cite web|date=2009-08-30|title=Pruebas irrefutables demuestran el genocidio de la población charrúa|url=https://www.lr21.com.uy/politica/378683-pruebas-irrefutables-demuestran-el-genocidio-de-la-poblacion-charrua|access-date=2021-01-13|website=LARED21|language=es}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Albarenga|first=Pablo|date=2017-11-10|title=Where did Uruguay's indigenous population go?|url=https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/11/06/inenglish/1509969553_044435.html|access-date=2021-01-13|website=EL PAÍS|language=en}}</ref>}} |
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* [[Plan Verde]]<ref>{{Cite book|last=Rospigliosi|first=Fernando|title=Las Fuerzas Armadas y el 5 de abril: la percepción de la amenaza subversiva como una motivación golpista|publisher=Instituto de Estudios Peruanos|year=1996|location=Lima, Peru|pages=46–47}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|last1=Gaussens|first1=Pierre|date=2020|title=The forced serilization of indigenous population in Mexico in the 1990s|journal=[[Canadian Journal of Bioethics]]|volume=3|issue=3|pages=180+|doi=10.7202/1073797ar|s2cid=234586692|quote=a government plan, developed by the Peruvian army between 1989 and 1990s to deal with the Shining Path insurrection, later known as the 'Green Plan', whose (unpublished) text expresses in explicit terms a genocidal intention}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Burt|first=Jo-Marie|date=September–October 1998|title=Unsettled accounts: militarization and memory in postwar Peru|journal=[[NACLA|NACLA Report on the Americas]]|publisher=[[Taylor & Francis]]|volume=32|issue=2|pages=35–41|doi=10.1080/10714839.1998.11725657|quote=the military's growing frustration over the limitations placed upon its counterinsurgency operations by democratic institutions, coupled with the growing inability of civilian politicians to deal with the spiraling economic crisis and the expansion of the Shining Path, prompted a group of military officers to devise a coup plan in the late 1980s. The plan called for the dissolution of Peru's civilian government, military control over the state, and total elimination of armed opposition groups. The plan, developed in a series of documents known as the "Plan Verde," outlined a strategy for carrying out a military coup in which the armed forces would govern for 15 to 20 years and radically restructure state-society relations along neoliberal lines.}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Getgen|first=Jocelyn E.|date=Winter 2009|title=Untold Truths: The Exclusion of Enforced Sterilizations from the Peruvian Truth Commission's Final Report|journal=Third World Journal|volume=29|issue=1|pages=1–34|quote=This Article argues that these systematic reproductive injustices constitute an act of genocide ... those individuals responsible for orchestrating enforced sterilizations against indigenous Quechua women arguably acted with the necessary ''[[mens rea]]'' to commit genocide since they knew or should have known that these coercive sterilizations would destroy, in whole or in part, the Quechua people. Highly probative evidence with which one could infer genocidal intent would include the Family Planning Program's specific targeting of poor indigenous women and the systematic nature of its quota system, articulated in the 1989 Plan for a Government of National Reconstruction, or 'Plan Verde.' ... The Plan continued by arguing ... the targeted areas possessed 'incorrigble characters' and lacked resources, all that was left was their 'total extermination.'}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|last=Carranza Ko|first=Ñusta|date=2020-09-04|title=Making the Case for Genocide, the Forced Sterilization of Indigenous Peoples of Peru|url=https://scholarcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol14/iss2/8|journal=[[Genocide Studies and Prevention]]|volume=14|issue=2|pages=90–103|doi=10.5038/1911-9933.14.2.1740|issn=1911-0359|quote=a genocide did occur ... there was a case of genocide that involved the state against the reproductive rights of an ethnic minority, an institutionalized genocide via a state policy.|doi-access=free}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=2016-05-31|title=La esterilización forzada en Perú fue el mayor genocidio desde su colonización|url=https://www.caaap.org.pe/2016/05/31/la-esterilizacion-forzada-en-peru-fue-el-mayor-genocidio-desde-su-colonizacion/|url-status=live|access-date=2021-08-04|website=Centro Amazónico de Antropología y Aplicación Práctica (CAAAP)|language=es}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last1=Back|first1=Michele|url=https://repositoriodigital.bnp.gob.pe/bnp/recursos/2/html/Racismo-y-lenguaje/286/|title=Racialization and Language: Interdisciplinary Perspectives From Perú|last2=Zavala|first2=Virginia|publisher=[[Routledge]]|year=2018|pages=286–291|quote=At the end of the 1980s, a group of military elites secretly developed an analysis of Peruvian society called ''El cuaderno verde''. This analysis established the policies that the following government would have to carry out in order to defeat Shining Path and rescue the Peruvian economy from the deep crisis in which it found itself. ''El cuaderno verde'' was passed onto the national press in 1993, after some of these policies were enacted by President Fujimori. ... It was a program that resulted in the forced sterilization of Quechua-speaking women belonging to rural Andean communities. This is an example of 'ethnic cleansing' justified by the state, which claimed that a properly controlled birth rate would improve the distribution of national resources and thus reduce poverty levels. ... The Peruvian state decided to control the bodies of 'culturally backward' women, since they were considered a source of poverty and the seeds of subversive groups|access-date=4 August 2021}}</ref> |
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* {{strikethrough|[[Putumayo genocide]]<ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.lanacion.com.co/editorial-genocidio-arana/|title=Editorial - Genocidio Arana|access-date=10 June 2020|work=[[La Nación]]|language=es-CO}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://redfilosoficadeluruguay.wordpress.com/2017/04/05/la-fiebre-del-caucho-y-el-genocidio-indigena-del-putumayo-colombia/|title=La fiebre del caucho y el genocidio indígena del Putumayo, Colombia.|access-date=10 June 2020|author=FG|date=5 April 2017|website=Red Filosófica del Uruguay|language=es-ES}}</ref>}} |
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:"[[Uyghur genocide]]" was previously listed in the article but was [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_genocides&diff=1196109065&oldid=1192397551 removed] for failing the inclusion criteria back when we used the UN definition. Now that the inclusion criteria has changed it may be time for another discussion about it. [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 12:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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-- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 12:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::Under the new inclusion criteria Uyghur should certainly be included. Tibet is usually characterized as a 'cultural genocide' so would require further discussion to establish clear consensus—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 14:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Endwise}} As the user who removed the Uyghur genocide entry from the list, could you offer an opinion? [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 09:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[Conquest of the Desert]] might not qualify per the discussion above and per [[WP:LISTV]], especially these parts: {{tq|Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics}} and {{tq|Ensure that the criteria for inclusion in the list are neutral and based on widely accepted definitions of terms}}. I see that we now explicitly list the UN definition of genocide, so we should be careful that sources list a) intent and b) destruction of peoples as such. Mere military conquests do not qualify, nor does mere ethnic cleansing of an area. |
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:It should be noted that one of the reasons for removing it was a lack of death toll. Every single entry in the article's list has a death toll. The Uyghur genocide, when it was listed here, was the only entry that did not have a death toll. Given that the article [[Uyghur genocide]] itself had its title changed to [[Persecution of Uyghurs in China]], you should first go there and argue for a restoration of that article's title. But you should familiarize yourself with the subject matter and the discussion behind the decision [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China&oldid=1210656351#Alternative here]. [[User:JasonMacker|JasonMacker]] ([[User talk:JasonMacker|talk]]) 17:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:The other four examples look fine to me. [[User:KetchupSalt|KetchupSalt]] ([[User talk:KetchupSalt|talk]]) 14:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:These are considered “cultural genocide” if I am not mistaken, as opposed to genocide in the liter sense here, the mass killing of thousands of people with intent to destroy them [[User:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|The Great Mule of Eupatoria]] ([[User talk:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|talk]]) 05:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::I find this discussion troubling that most likely non of you deciding to not call what occurred to the Native Americans not a Genocide. It is broadly recognized around the world less Caucasian Euro American scholars, as a Genocide which clearly shows bias. Is anyone making the decision a Naitve American? It clearly checks all the boxes while the discussion focuses around homicide it never seems to discuss the removal of culture and relocation. Wow. |
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::I can't speak to the situation in Tibet, about which I am totally uninformed, but several experts have described the persecution of Uyghurs as meeting the standard of the Genocide Convention. While it's true that there are no (or very few) deaths, genocide can also be committed by "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", and by "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group", both of which have been documented against Uyghurs. [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 17:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/162804 [[Special:Contributions/67.60.216.236|67.60.216.236]] ([[User talk:67.60.216.236|talk]]) 07:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::From the article [[Persecution of Uyghurs in China]], the following scholarship is mentioned or cited as it being a case of genocide (as opposed to cultural genocide): |
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:::* {{cite journal |last=Finley |first=Joanne |year=2020 |title=Why Scholars and Activists Increasingly Fear a Uyghur Genocide in Xinjiang |journal=[[Journal of Genocide Research]] |publication-place=[[Newcastle University]] |volume=23 |issue=3 |pages=348–370 |doi=10.1080/14623528.2020.1848109 |s2cid=236962241 |issn=1462-3528}} |
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:::* {{Cite journal |last=Fiskejö |first=Magnus |date=2020 |title=Forced Confessions as Identity Conversion in China's Concentration Camps |url=https://www.cairn.info/revue-monde-chinois-2020-2-page-28.htm |journal={{ill|Monde Chinois|fr|Monde chinois (revue)}} |volume=62 |issue=2 |pages=28–43 |via=[[Cairn.info]]}} |
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:::* {{cite web |year=2021|title=Chinese Persecution of the Uyghurs |url=https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/case-study/current-risks/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs |website=[[United States Holocaust Memorial Museum]] |publisher=United States Holocaust Memorial Museum}} |
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:::* {{Cite web |date=28 June 2021 |title=CASCA Statement on Xinjiang |url=https://www.cas-sca.ca/images/CASCA_Statement_on_Xinjiang.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210701124701/https://www.cas-sca.ca/images/CASCA_Statement_on_Xinjiang.pdf |archive-date=1 July 2021 |access-date=4 July 2021 |website=[[Canadian Anthropology Society]]}} |
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:::-- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 22:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I don't have time in the near future to do the digging myself, but looking for papers published in the following journals concluding it is a genocide would help bolster the argument for inclusion (and should be added to the Persecution article): |
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::::* [[Journal of Genocide Research]] |
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::::* [[Genocide Studies and Prevention]] |
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::::* [[Holocaust and Genocide Studies]] |
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::::* [https://www.jstor.org/journal/genocidestudies Genocide Studies International] |
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::::* [[Journal of Human Rights Practice]] |
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::::* [https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/fjhr20 The International Journal of Human Rights] |
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::::* [[American Journal of International Law]] |
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::::* [[Human Rights Quarterly]] |
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::::* [[European Journal of International Law]] |
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::::* [[American Journal of Comparative Law]] |
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::::* [[Virginia Journal of International Law]] |
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::::* [[Chicago Journal of International Law]] |
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::::* [[Journal of International Criminal Justice]] |
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::::* [[Fordham International Law Journal]] |
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::::* [[International Journal of Transitional Justice]] |
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::::* [[German Law Journal]] |
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::::* [https://academic.oup.com/hrlr Human Rights Law Review] |
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::::* [[Cornell International Law Journal]] |
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::::* [[Vanderbilt Journal of Transnational Law]] |
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::::* [[Michigan Journal of International Law]] |
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::::* [https://nyujilp.org/ New York University Journal of International Law & Policy] |
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::::* [[Journal of Contemporary China]] |
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::::* [[The China Quarterly]] |
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::::* [[Journal of Chinese Political Science]] |
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::::* [[The Chinese Journal of International Politics]] |
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::::* [[Chinese Sociological Review]] |
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::::* [https://link.springer.com/journal/41111 Chinese Political Science Review] |
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::::* [https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/rgov20 Journal of Chinese Governance] |
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::::* [[The China Journal]] |
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::::-- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 23:11, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::There is one other supporting academic source included in the article that you've missed. "[https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3-2.pdf The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China’s Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention]" is a paper by the scholar [https://www.azeemibrahim.com Azeem Ibrahim] and includes contributions from dozens of genocide scholars, international law experts and experts on Chinese ethnic policies. The article also discusses a legal opinion from the Essex Court Chambers authored in part by [https://essexcourt.com/barrister/alison-macdonald-kc/ Alison Macdonald KC] - an expert in human rights and international law - which found a "very credible case" for there being a genocide against Uyghurs. [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 15:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:There is no factual basis for the claim that the Chinese government is attempting to exterminate Uyghurs or Tibetans. And that probably has a lot to do with why it's not included here. [[Special:Contributions/2601:645:D00:4B80:7C84:2092:82F3:4E1D|2601:645:D00:4B80:7C84:2092:82F3:4E1D]] ([[User talk:2601:645:D00:4B80:7C84:2092:82F3:4E1D|talk]]) 07:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think it should be included just because several governments recognize it as a genocide. [[User:ScmHstu|ScmHstu]] ([[User talk:ScmHstu|talk]]) 21:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia == |
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=== References === |
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{{reflist}} [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 12:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC) |
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Why is [[Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia|this]] genocide not included in the list? It was a large genocide of Poles, where around 100000 Poles were killed by [[Ukrainian Insurgent Army|UPA]] militias. |
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== 1793-1794 French Genocide: The Vendée == |
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On the list we have aslo have other genocides done by fasists militias/partisants (Genocides done by the Chetniks), so Volhynia genocide should be aslo included. [[User:Szturnek|<span style="color:#05a81e;">'''Szturnek'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:Szturnek|<span style="color:#008080;">¿?</span>]]</sub> 16:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:You would need to show that this has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" per the inclusion criteria here. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 13:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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[[Special:Contributions/2600:1003:B134:1EE8:C8CD:800D:FC8E:E5F8|2600:1003:B134:1EE8:C8CD:800D:FC8E:E5F8]] ([[User talk:2600:1003:B134:1EE8:C8CD:800D:FC8E:E5F8|talk]]) 01:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::Based on the sources we have in the section [[Genocides in history (World War I through World War II)#Volhynia and Eastern Galicia|Volhynia and Eastern Galicia]] of ''Genocides in history (World War I through World War II)'', while some Polish academics have said there are characteristics of genocide, they say that it was a campaign of ethnic cleansing. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 19:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::i think Snyder also calls it an act of genocide but not sure where—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 23:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Blindlynx|Blindlynx]] just a quick 10 minutes check, but these three sources seem to have Snyder calling the killings of Jews in the area genocide, while calling the killing of Poles ethnic cleansing. [https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/genocide-ethnic-cleansing-and-deportation-how-volhynia-became-west-ukraine-1939-46 Source 1], [http://pscourses.ucsd.edu/ps200b/Snyder%20The%20Causes%20of%20Ukrainian-Polish%20Ethnic%20Cleansing%201943.pdf Source 2], [https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.12987/9780300128413-011/html Source 3]. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 09:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] Ahh that tracks, sorry for the miss remembering—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 13:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::@[[User:Blindlynx|Blindlynx]] no problem, there could be more sources out there, and I will eventually get to doing a more in depth check for Poles in Volhynia and Galicia, but this probably wont be till into next year. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 13:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:: If we have Siege of Leningrad on the list, because some Russian historians claim, so Volhynia Massacre should be aslo added, because for exaple [[Institute of National Remembrance|IPN]] claims officially that Volhynia was a genocide ([https://edukacja.ipn.gov.pl/edu/materialy-edukacyjne/teki-edukacyjn/czas-grozy-zbrodnia-wolynska-1 link]). Additionally, is ethnic cleansing significantly different from genocide? In particular, since the UPA murdered Poles on the spot, rather than deporting them. If this is a significant difference, then why do we have various NKVD operations on the list that are described as ethnic cleansing, not genocide? [[User:Szturnek|<span style="color:#05a81e;">'''Szturnek'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:Szturnek|<span style="color:#008080;">¿?</span>]]</sub> 13:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I've gone through some of the original 2008 piece by Piotr Zając and the characterisation in [[Genocides in history (World War I through World War II)#Volhynia and Eastern Galicia|Volhynia and Eastern Galicia]] of ''Genocides in history (World War I through World War II)'' was incorrect, so I've updated that. Zając concludes that the crimes were genocide, ideally we'd have more sources from other individuals. {{ping|User:Szturnek}} if you can help finding/providing such sources, I'd see no issue in including Volhynia and Galicia. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 20:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Genocide of germany 1940-1945 == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 September 2023 == |
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In total, Allied bombing campaigns conducted by the UK and US are estimated to have killed between 305,000 and 410,000 German civilians during World War II. |
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{{edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
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Change [Turkey]] in the Greek/Pontic Greek Genocide entry to <nowiki>[[Turkey]]</nowiki>. [[User:SRG372|SRG372]] ([[User talk:SRG372|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SRG372|Edits]]) 21:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}. Thanks — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 21:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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If Gaza genocide is included, so should this. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500|talk]]) 06:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Boxer Rebellion == |
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:This is not how content decisions are made. Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 06:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::I can provide a source for the civillian death toll of ww2. Could you explain what you mean by 'Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy.'; does this not conform to policy? If so you must cite the policy. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500|talk]]) 09:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You would need [[WP:reliable sources]] which explicitly call the bombings a genocide. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 09:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Sure. The statement "if A is included, then B should be included", where A=Gaza genocide and B=Allied bombing campaigns is an invalid decision procedure. The inclusion of B has no dependency on the inclusion of A, or vice versa. The inclusion test for this article is "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" and that test should be applied independently to A and B. So, you can see that providing a civilian death toll statistic wouldn't tell you anything about whether an event has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship". Only sampling reliable sources can answer that question. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 09:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::It's an interesting thing to think about. In germany 300-400k civillians were bombed, and in Japan a similar number were killed by the atomic bombs. These were defensive wars fought by the US and UK. But in abscence of some journalist/scholar calling that Genocide, it isn't, and the bombing of gaza, which is a defensive war fought by Israel, is a genocide because a scholar did. Where is the explanation for why Gaza is a genocide in distinction to other strategic bombing such as in ww2? And why is the fact that international courts have not determined gaza to be a genocide taken into account? [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500|2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500|talk]]) 09:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Fundamentally you're correct about a lot of this analysis, but ultimately it's [[WP:OR]]. Wikipedia includes things based on the prevalence of reliable sources. Sources currently describe Gaza as a genocide, but not Germany. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''</sup> 10:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Thinking about it probably won't help. I find not thinking about it, not caring and just following the policies and guidelines works better in Wikipedia. Having an expectation of consistency, that things should make sense, seems to be almost always wrong. Reliable sources just say what they say. The information doesn't need to be globally consistent or make sense. And like Czello says, Wikipedia content just reflects reliable source content. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 10:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Israel is not fighting a ‘defensive’ war, so that excuse doesn’t work. You don’t defend yourself against the people you occupy and oppress after they fight back [[User:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|The Great Mule of Eupatoria]] ([[User talk:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|talk]]) 10:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Yes, this is something like [[Whataboutism]]. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 11:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::This seems like it. Also the way Gaza genocide is mentioned alongside this, it’s a common ‘argument’ I’ve seen people use to justify it by bringing up allied bombings of axis powers as if the two are remotely the same. Also him describing the war on Gaza as “defensive” even though Israel occupies Palestine and as a result default Palestinian resistance groups are the defenders by default [[User:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|The Great Mule of Eupatoria]] ([[User talk:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|talk]]) 12:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Yes. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 13:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::You are 100% correct but this doesn't show that any changes need to be made to the article itself, rather to Wikipedia alarmingly low standards for what should be considered a genocide. |
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:::::If 20 scholars from 1 university all publish articles in popular papers claiming an event is a genocide is that "significant"? What if the event happens in a country with freedom of the press so more debate around it happens, does that make it more of a genocide than if it were to occur in a dictatorship that doesn't allow those debates to take place? |
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:::::The criteria for which something counts as a genocide on this article needs a complete overhaul, ideally using 1 or 2 trusted, supernational committees to determine it rather than thousands of "scholars" out of which only a "significant" amount need to agree in order to make it an official genocide. [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 11:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::There is no such thing as an 'official genocide'. And if your concern is that the current state of affairs means there is a risk of Israel being included, that is not a legitimate reason. You do not have the privileges to express your alarm about such things here. You do not have the extendedconfirmed privilege and therefore your speech is limited by the [[WP:ARBECR]] rule, as you presumably already know because you have been told "If you continue to violate WP:ECR...you will be blocked from editing." [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 13:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:They both not the same. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 09:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Proposing to remove Gaza Genocide from the list == |
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I believe the Boxer Rebellion should be added as a genocide. It was ethnic cleansing of Christians and foreigners in Norther China, & it definitely fits the definition of a genocide. Just because it was also a war doesn’t mean it wasn’t a genocide, for example take the Bosnian War. [[Special:Contributions/67.226.222.24|67.226.222.24]] ([[User talk:67.226.222.24|talk]]) 04:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC) |
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This page has recently become a firestorm due to the inclusion of the accused Gaza Genocide into the page. The insertion of the Gaza Genocide into the page is as blatant of a NPOV violation that you could possibly get. The ninth word in the Gaza Genocide article is accused. Not committing, nor committed, accused. Even the ICJ, who is spearheading the investigation into Israel's action in Gaza, has not classified Israel's actions as genocidal. I propose to open a new discussion about the inclusion of Gaza Genocide on this page. [[User:Pyramids09|Pyramids09]] ([[User talk:Pyramids09|talk]]) 08:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Christians are not a nation. Also please provide a source. The [[Boxer Rebellion]] makes zero mention of it being a genocide and a quick Web search on "Boxer Rebellion genocide" yields nothing. Finally [[ethnic cleansing]] and genocide are not the same thing. [[User:KetchupSalt|KetchupSalt]] ([[User talk:KetchupSalt|talk]]) 19:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:Based on [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-90&pages=List_of_genocides this], and the recent increase in the number of non-extended confirmed interactions with the page, I assume off-site social media activity/coordination/influence operations etc. may be impacting the talk page. Apparently is extremely easy to manipulate susceptible people and send them to Wikipedia to do something. If it continues the talk page may need to be EC-protected. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 10:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{Ping|KetchupSalt}} {{tq|any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or '''religious''' group}} [[User:Parham wiki|Parham wiki]] ([[User talk:Parham wiki|talk]]) 12:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::There has been a clear uptick in comments made on this talk page recently, all essentially saying the same thing. I agree that an EC protection might be necessary (given that one needs to be EC to participate here beyond basic edit requests). — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>]])''</sup> 10:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::Also, whether "This page has recently become a firestorm" or not is not relevant to our internal processes and discussions about content. Wikipedia editors make the content decisions based on our rules regardless of what is happening off-site. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 10:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]]. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 10:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::IOHANNVSVERVS, I reverted the strike out because Pyramids09 was granted extendedconfirmed on 2021-06-25, 67 days after registration. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 10:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thank you, my striking their edit was a mistake. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 10:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Expressing sympathy and thanks to IOHANNVSVERVS. Even trying to keep up with this talk page is beyond me. Thank you for trying to keep some order here. I'd have probably just left WP for a while. [[User:CAVincent|CAVincent]] ([[User talk:CAVincent|talk]]) 11:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Euro-Med HRM, Law for Palestine, the UN, the Lemkin Institute, hundreds of scholars and thousands of lawyers have all described it as genocide. Just because the ICJ has not yet made a determination, which you know full well is because they are still hearing the case and so cannot deliver a verdict, does not mean we should exclude. [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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This discussion is largely off-topic. Regarding the suggestion of Pyramids09 that we "open a new discussion about the inclusion of Gaza Genocide", I don't think that's a good idea as we just had a lengthy RfC on this question which was closed on Sept 3.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_genocides/Archive_15#RFC_-_Inclusion_of_Gaza_genocide] Also of note is the inclusion criteria of this list, which is stated in the lead of the article: |
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== Gaza == |
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<blockquote>'''This list includes all events which have been classified as genocide by significant scholarship.''' As there are varying definitions of genocide, '''this list includes events around which there is ongoing scholarly debate over their classification as genocide''' and is not a list of only events which have a scholarly consensus to recognize them as genocide.s genocide.</blockquote> |
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-[[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 20:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:If there is ongoing debate over whether it is a genocide, as is the case with Gaza, then it should not be included. Or separated into a list of ''alleged'' genocides. Wikipedia is there to spread common knowledge, not propaganda and things that are debated. |
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Please be watching as it seems we are witnessing a genocide of massive proportions happening in Gaza right now. With no power water and food gas or media coverage , we likely won’t know the numbers for weeks or months but it will be grave. [[Special:Contributions/2607:FEA8:28E0:9170:5DE1:71FB:9CF1:F80B|2607:FEA8:28E0:9170:5DE1:71FB:9CF1:F80B]] ([[User talk:2607:FEA8:28E0:9170:5DE1:71FB:9CF1:F80B|talk]]) 10:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:I strongly '''Support''' deleting the Gaza genocide from the list. [[User:Epomis87|Epomis87]] ([[User talk:Epomis87|talk]]) 09:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball|Wikipedia is not a crystal ball]]: "Wikipedia does not predict the future." We do not know how many people will be killed by the Israelis in this [[ethnic cleansing]]. We will have to wait for available estimates, after the cleansing is completed. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 12:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{tqq|This list includes all events which have been classified as genocide by significant scholarship.}} |
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::We should not wait until it is completed to add this entry. Some sources suggest this may have been ongoing for many years already. There is no need to provide an end date, and casualties counts can be updated occasionally. [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 02:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate}} |
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::Hi Dimadick, no matter how senior, one should refrain from loaded language such as this - framing all "Israelis" as "Ethnic Cleansing". I'm new to the policies but targeted harassment doesn't bode well on Talk pages for purposes of WP:CON. Thanks :) [[User:Chavmen|Chavmen]] ([[User talk:Chavmen|talk]]) 02:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::-- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 15:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Not loaded. "The Japanese" bombed Pearl Harbour, "the Romans" invaded Gaul, etc. etc. This is not "targeted harassment," this is commonly accepted language, and to argue as such would be to do so in bad faith. [[User:Jackwc123|Jackwc123]] ([[User talk:Jackwc123|talk]]) 21:21, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Every genocide is debated [[User:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|The Great Mule of Eupatoria]] ([[User talk:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|talk]]) 09:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Jackwc123|Jackwc123]] |
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::::"... how many people will be killed by the Israelis in this ethnic cleansing...until this cleansing is completed." It's not the same. And this is not commonly accepted. [[User:Chavmen|Chavmen]] ([[User talk:Chavmen|talk]]) 22:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::You aren't responding to my comment. What I said is "commonly accepted" is attributing an act to a nation, i.e. "the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour." In fact, let us take a look at [[Attack on Pearl Harbor|the Wiki page itself]] for that very same event: |
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:::::<big>"''Japanese'' demands included..." |
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:::::"...coordinated ''Japanese'' attacks..." |
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:::::"The ''Japanese'' also sank or damaged..." |
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:::::"The experiences of World War I taught the ''Japanese'' that..." |
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:::::"...the ''Japanese'' attack on USS Panay..."</big> |
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:::::^ as you can plainly see, attributing an act to a nation (i.e. "killed by the Israelis") is a completely normal and commonly-accepted way of speaking about international matters, and everyone is patently aware that speaking this way is shorthand for speaking about ''national entities'', not ''citizens''. You are arguing this point in deliberately bad faith. [[User:Jackwc123|Jackwc123]] ([[User talk:Jackwc123|talk]]) 18:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::agreed, there is over a thousand deaths and mostly children. It should be included and be spread awareness of, does not matter if its not over yet [[Special:Contributions/2601:646:8300:78F0:BC9A:4BBC:8E6:6239|2601:646:8300:78F0:BC9A:4BBC:8E6:6239]] ([[User talk:2601:646:8300:78F0:BC9A:4BBC:8E6:6239|talk]]) 16:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Already, one could consider it as one. My text was removed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_genocides&diff=prev&oldid=1180110837 |
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:What do people think? Other than BilledMammal, who does not agree with the text. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 21:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::I agree the situation is very grave, but we have to follow what reliable sources say. I do not see a significant number of reliable sources describing events in Gaza as a genocide. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 21:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I see what you are saying. I can find many however which show that Israel has breached the UN Genocide Convention, stating specifically the terms which it has breached. E.g. one or two of the sources on the [[Genocide against Palestinians]] page/ What do you think of this article, also? https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 21:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I was coming here to share the same source from jewishcurrents. It qualifies. As of 5 hours ago, reported civilian casualties are 2,215. Of course it will go way up from here. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/13/israel-hamas-live-dozens-killed-while-fleeing-to-southern-gaza#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20indicated,Israeli%20air%20attacks%20on%20Gaza. [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 04:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::High casualty events are not automatically genocides, and high casualty events in the future are definitely not. So far, at least 17,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed by Russia in the current war but that is not listed. The last months has seen the [[Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians]] under threat of genocide, not listed here. Tens or hundreds of thousands have died in the [[Tigray War]], I don’t know how many in Yemen and Syria, all described by some sources as genocide but not listed here. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 05:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Agreed. Again however, I would like to quote scholar [[Raz Segal]]: |
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::::::Raz Segal: |
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::::::“'''The UN Genocide Convention lists five acts that fall under its definition. Israel is currently perpetrating three of these in Gaza: “1. Killing members of the group. 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” The Israeli Air Force, by its own account, has so far dropped more than 6,000 bombs on Gaza, which is one of the most densely populated areas in the world—more bombs than the US dropped on all of Afghanistan in any year of its war there.''' Human Rights Watch has confirmed that the weapons used included phosphorous bombs, which set fire to bodies and buildings, creating flames that aren’t extinguished on contact with water. This demonstrates clearly what Gallant means by “act accordingly”: not targeting individual Hamas militants, as Israel claims, but unleashing deadly violence against Palestinians in Gaza “as such,” in the language of the UN Genocide Convention. Israel has also intensified its 16-year siege of Gaza—the longest in modern history, in clear violation of international humanitarian law—to a “complete siege,” in Gallant’s words. This turn of phrase that explicitly indexes a plan to bring the siege to its final destination of systematic destruction of Palestinians and Palestinian society in Gaza, by killing them, starving them, cutting off their water supplies, and bombing their hospitals. |
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::::::It’s not only Israel’s leaders who are using such language. An interviewee on the pro-Netanyahu Channel 14 called for Israel to “turn Gaza to Dresden.” Channel 12, Israel’s most-watched news station, published a report about left-leaning Israelis calling to “dance on what used to be Gaza.” Meanwhile, genocidal verbs—calls to “erase” and “flatten” Gaza—have become omnipresent on Israeli social media. In Tel Aviv, a banner reading “Zero Gazans” was seen hanging from a bridge.” [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 08:36, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::[[WP:OR]] is very, very clear. Wikipedians are not to base edits on original research. We edit based on what reliable sources say. Is there a substantial body of reliable sources calling current events a genocide? Your arguments constitute original research and, thus, have no epistemological value for determining edits. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 10:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::It is not solely my edits. There is no original research. Lost of scholars call it a genocide. I am not saying that it is though. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 11:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Provide reliable sources explicitly calling it a genocide and we can look at them. You have given us one above, from ''Jewish Currents''. Do you have more? [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 13:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230107922_26 Here is one more by Ilan Pappe] [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 19:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Pappe is an activist and historian not a genocide scholar or legal expert. This article predates the current crisis too. While clearly there are going to be individuals who see this as a genocide (and they may be right), and that can be discussed on the article about the conflict if they are noteworthy, but we need there to be wide consensus that it's a genocide before we include it in a list like this. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 13:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::[https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf Another one] There is a lot here to look through, but it is said explicitly in the conclusion. [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 02:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::CCR is an advocacy organisation not a reliable source. I think we need the preponderance of reliable sources to agree before listing it here [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 10:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Being an advocacy organization doesnt necessarily mean it's not a reliable source. Youd need evidence they have posted false information in the past, or other indications of unreliability [[User:Ashvio|Ashvio]] ([[User talk:Ashvio|talk]]) 01:29, 25 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::[https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-emergency-alert-israel-and-gaza This one by Genocide Watch] has explicitly classified this instance as 'Level 8: Extermination' [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 00:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Correction. 'Stage 9: Extermination' [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 00:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::You've misread the genocide watch article; it's raising a warning about the actions against both Israel and Gaza. The stage nine warning applies to the actions against Israel; the large scale massacres of civilians. The warning that applies to the actions against Gaza is Stage 4, dehumanization, which it considers to be a step towards genocide but not genocide itself. |
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:::::::::::In other words, that source supports adding the actions against Israel to the list ("The massacres by Hamas constituted acts of genocide"), but not the actions against Gaza. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 02:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::In addition to the academic assessment previously provided, the following articles show consensus among some politicians as well as the public. Generally speaking, how many sources are we looking for here? |
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::::::::::[https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231016-colombia-condemns-genocide-in-gaza-threatens-to-sever-ties-with-israel/ Colombia condemns genocide in Gaza] |
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::::::::::[https://brazilian.report/liveblog/politics-insider/2023/10/16/lula-party-israel-genocide-gaza/ Lula's party calls out Israel for 'genocide' in Gaza] |
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::::::::::[https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/16/headlines/protests_across_the_us_call_for_israel_to_end_its_siege_and_genocide_in_gaza Protests Across the U.S. Call for Israel to End Its Siege and Genocide in Gaza] [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 01:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::The Pappe paper and the CCR piece are older and refer to events prior to the recent outbreak of war. They don’t argue that the current events constitute a genocide, which I thought is what we were discussing. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 07:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Some sources here backdate the beginning of this genocide as early as 1948. That is not a case for not adding this to the list. The topic is 'Gaza', not 'Gaza 2023'. The start date can be disputed. The casualty counts too. Statements by activists and historians contribute to public consensus. All of these sources, as a whole, need to be taken into consideration. This is because we will not receive a public statement by Netanyahu admitting genocide. Nor will we from Biden. [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 17:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I don't think Democracy Now, Brazilian Report and Middle East Monitor are strong sources, and I don't think US protestors, Lula or Petro are qualified to make this judgement (although Lula and Petro's opinions would be obviously due on the article about the events). [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 13:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I will take that note and try to source more mainstream American news, thank you. Official statements made by heads of 3rd party states are some of the best sources for consensus here. My understanding is that evidence of consensus among a wide group of academics, politicians, and the public are what is required for consensus. Is that correct? Or are Wikipedia contributors themselves more qualified than Lula and Petro? [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 17:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Interested in your thoughts on my sources below. Not saying we need to add this as genocide immediately, but there's a growing number of scholars and qualified experts calling this genocide or ethnic cleansing, along with Israeli statements also implying such intentions. [[User:Ashvio|Ashvio]] ([[User talk:Ashvio|talk]]) 01:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Other potential genocides missing from this list is not a case against adding this one to the list. This topic is titled 'Gaza'. [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 18:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::Sure, but the list needs to apply some kind of consistent principles. If we start including everything that anyone has described as a genocide, we'll get a very long list very quickly. [[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 13:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::Fully aligned. We must be very consistent. [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 17:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::The UN won’t call the Ughyrs a genocide but call Gaza a genocide… so why is one not a genocide on the list and the other isn’t? [[Special:Contributions/2601:283:4C81:2960:C18F:1953:44AB:1FC2|2601:283:4C81:2960:C18F:1953:44AB:1FC2]] ([[User talk:2601:283:4C81:2960:C18F:1953:44AB:1FC2|talk]]) 17:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Because it doesn't matter what the UN says. Wikipedia summarizes [[WP:Reliable sources]]. In the case of [[genocide]], which is part of the scholarly field of [[genocide studies]], we summarize [[WP:SCHOLARSHIP]]. Not governments, not non-government organizations... scholarship. Per [[WP:NPOV]], if the mainstream view of scholars is that something is genocide, Wikipedia says it's genocide, in its own voice. Otherwise, not. Ask the scholars why they agree the [[Uyghur genocide]] is a genocide but they don't agree about Palestinians. Whatever their reasons, Wikipedia follows the scholarship. |
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:::::::::When the scholars agree that the [[Nakba]] is a genocide -- which I think they will, probably in the next 12-24 months, once they start publishing new papers and books -- then Wikipedia will call it a genocide in [[WP:WIKIVOICE]]. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I think it's rather obvious why scholars would agree on Uyghur genocide but decline Gaza Genocide. China is an official foe of the west and Israel is an official ally. The VAST majority of scholars live in the west and almost none are protected by tenure anymore. You think that they haven't noticed that colleges, even elite ones, are being targeted and defunded by wealthy Israel supporters for the crime of having a local chapter of Jewish Voice for Peace. There is a high cost for so called neutral scholars to say anything negative about Israel, and nothing but incentives to say negative things about China. [[User:Adbdb0o|Adbdb0o]] ([[User talk:Adbdb0o|talk]]) 20:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I don't see anywhere that the UN has called the current 2023 conflict a genocide. The term is heavily loaded and should not be used lightly especially in an act of self defense. Further, there are a number of wars with high death tolls that are not classified as genocides. As others much more senior than I have said, we go by WP:RSP and what the WP:SCHOLARSHIP says. See: |
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:::::::::https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-israel-commits-acts-genocide |
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:::::::::https://www.cfr.org/article/what-international-law-has-say-about-israel-hamas-war |
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:::::::::https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/experts-laws-war-apply-hamas-israeli-military-rcna120767 [[User:Chavmen|Chavmen]] ([[User talk:Chavmen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::As Jewish Currents has been invoked by two editors, just noting this response from an Israel-critical scholar: |
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:::::* {{cite web |author=[[Dov Waxman]] |date=30 October 2023 |title=On "A Textbook Case of Genocide" |url=https://jewishcurrents.org/letters/on-a-textbook-case-of-genocide |access-date=2 November 2023 |website=Jewish Currents |ref={{sfnref | Jewish Currents | 2023}}}} |
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:::::[[User:Bobfrombrockley|BobFromBrockley]] ([[User talk:Bobfrombrockley|talk]]) 15:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::There are sources from before the current conflict on this suggesting Israel's actions are a genocide, for what it's worth. Not sure if it's a consensus of scholars but is likely enough to include as notable opinion in relevant articles for Israel/Palestine. [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230107922_2]https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230107922_2 |
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:::For the current conflict, sources calling this an [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls ethnic cleansing (UN expert)] |
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:::[https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/ 800 scholars signed a statement warning of "potential genocide"] |
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:::Statements from Knesset suggesting a [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/14/a-second-nakba-echoes-of-1948-as-israel-orders-palestinians-to-leave "second Nakba"] for proving intent |
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:::And more recently, an Israeli think tank suggested an opportunity to commit what basically constitutes ethnic cleansing [https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a-blueprint-for-the-complete-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/?utm_content=buffera2434&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer as described by secondary sources] |
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:::I think it's likely too early to suggest the ''current'' conflict is a genocide yet as others noted, but it should definitely be on our radar. For the overall conflict since 1948, it could definitely qualify as "ethnic cleansing" at the very least if we have a separate article for that. [[User:Ashvio|Ashvio]] ([[User talk:Ashvio|talk]]) 01:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::The letter signed by 800 scholars really brings to light the genocidal intent. In addition to this, there are numerous speeches and actions that further contribute to this grim assessment. |
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::::In the context of this conflict, the term 'collective punishment' has been, and continues to be, in my view, employed as a euphemism for genocide. This choice of language is likely due to the efforts of ambassadors and diplomats who are working to maintain diplomatic relations and de-escalate tensions. |
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::::However, as others have pointed out, Wikipedia is not a platform for [[WP:OR]]. Wikipedia strives to documents history accurately, even if that means adopting a more conservative/cautious stance. This results in articles lagging behind current events and trends. Nevertheless, I think that the [[2023 Israel–Hamas war|main article on this conflict]] could do a better job at reflecting the various claims and accusations more promptly than this list does. -- [[User:Arthurfragoso|Arthurfragoso]] ([[User talk:Arthurfragoso|talk]]) 06:09, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::*[[War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war#Allegations of genocide]] |
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:::::*[[Palestinian genocide accusation#Discourse on the 2023 Israel–Hamas war]] |
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:::::-- [[User:Arthurfragoso|Arthurfragoso]] ([[User talk:Arthurfragoso|talk]]) 14:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york Another one by New York UN Official Craig Mokhiber] [[User:VeronikaStein|VeronikaStein]] ([[User talk:VeronikaStein|talk]]) 15:36, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::* {{Cite web |date=2017-11-17 |title=Liberal Israeli leaders were contemplating genocide in Gaza already in 1967 |url=https://mondoweiss.net/2017/11/liberal-contemplating-genocide/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231020000544/https://mondoweiss.net/2017/11/liberal-contemplating-genocide/ |archive-date=2023-10-20 |access-date=2023-11-05 |website=Mondoweiss |language=en-US}} |
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::* "''Yadlin said Israel would be happy if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.''" - {{Cite web |last=Katz |first=Y |date=2010-12-21 |title=Yadlin: Israel would be ‘happy’ if Hamas takes over Gaza |url=https://www.jpost.com/defense/yadlin-israel-would-be-happy-if-hamas-takes-over-gaza |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221228221510/https://www.jpost.com/defense/yadlin-israel-would-be-happy-if-hamas-takes-over-gaza |archive-date=2022-12-28 |access-date=2023-11-05 |website=The Jerusalem Post |language=en-US}} |
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::* {{Cite web |last=Segal |first=Raz |date=2023-10-13 |title=A Textbook Case of Genocide |url=https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231103192608/https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide |archive-date=2023-11-03 |access-date=2023-11-05 |website=Jewish Currents |language=en}} "Raz Segal is an associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University and the endowed professor in the study of modern genocide" |
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::Maybe we could just add to the list and include a disputed tag,{{Disputed inline|talk=Palestinian genocide accusation}} maybe pointing to the "[[Palestinian genocide accusation]]" article. -- [[User:Arthurfragoso|Arthurfragoso]] ([[User talk:Arthurfragoso|talk]]) 08:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::That’s a good idea. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 11:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Absolutely not. That's not what the tag is for. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 16:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:we have Israeli historian and professor of genocide and holocaust studies [[Omer Bartov]] [https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/10/bartov_genocide_apartheid saying] on 10 November 2023, |
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:{{tq2|Whether at the moment this is genocide, my own sense is that it is not genocide at the moment, because there is still no clear indication of an attempt to destroy the entire population, which would be genocide, but that we are very close on the verge of that. And if this [[2023 Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip|so-called operation]] continues, that may become [[ethnic cleansing]] — in part, it’s already happened [[Evacuation of the northern Gaza Strip|with the move of so many Palestinians from northern Gaza to southern Gaza]] — and that may become genocide.}} |
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:so in the future depending on how the future unfolds it might make sense to add a second entry of gaza to the [[List of ethnic cleansing campaigns#2020s|list of instances of ethnic cleansing]], this time in the 2020s. though i hope we wont have to <big>😢🙏</big> ~ [[User:Johnfreez|Johnfreez]] ([[User talk:Johnfreez|talk]]) 04:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:Johnfreez|Johnfreez]] He is but one scholar, and I'm sure there are others, but there are plenty of other scholars who would say it isn't. NGOs and journalists are also saying it isn't a text book case of Genocide or ethic cleansing. So at best, still fits into the accusation realm. |
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::The Economist for one: |
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::https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/11/10/how-the-term-genocide-is-misused-in-the-israel-hamas-war [[User:Chavmen|Chavmen]] ([[User talk:Chavmen|talk]]) 06:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{tq|there is still no clear indication of an attempt to destroy the entire population}} The UN charter stipulates no such requirement. In fact it states that it is genocide whether it is "in whole '''or in part'''", and [[WP:LISTV]] stipulates that we follow the charter. Intent also seems abundantly clear. But either way we probably need to wait for the scholarship to catch up as many in here have said. I will also point out that academia is not the sole source of [[WP:RS]]. The international legal system ''is'' catching up, and should for example the [[International Criminal Court|ICC]] find Israel's leadership guilty of the crime of genocide I'd say that's reliable enough. [[User:KetchupSalt|KetchupSalt]] ([[User talk:KetchupSalt|talk]]) 23:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::I'd say this story out today from an Israeli magazine with sources in the IDF rather definitively proves genocidal intent. |
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::[https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ ‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza. Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an artificial intelligence system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza, a +972 and Local Call investigation reveals.] [[User:Adbdb0o|Adbdb0o]] ([[User talk:Adbdb0o|talk]]) 19:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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*I do not see any RFC with consensus to include it. Just saying. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 23:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2023 == |
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*:The RFC has been archived and can be found [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_genocides/Archive_15#RFC_-_Inclusion_of_Gaza_genocide here]. [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 12:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, thank you, I did not see it earlier. It was "include". As our page says "Israel has been accused of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people by a number of experts, governments, United Nations agencies...". It appears that the criteria for inclusion are changed. It is enough to have significant well-sourced ''accusations'' or claims of something to be a genocide, including claims by scholars. Then we can include a lot more items here. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 21:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
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::::In fact we should, but the task of having consistency across the various lists in this topic area seems to have slowed—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 23:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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“Change dominican republic and hispaniola to include also Puerto Rico” [[Special:Contributions/68.204.76.220|68.204.76.220]] ([[User talk:68.204.76.220|talk]]) 23:55, 23 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Sorry, I chose to focus on adding entries to the genocides in history articles per new literature. I will get back to trying to harmonise the articles in line with their specific criteria, but for the next few months I have a huge amount of irl priorities. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 15:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 16:05, 24 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 November 2023 == |
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== Nazi crimes against the Polish Nation == |
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{{edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
{{edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
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Add “Genocide of Turks by Armenians” on the list. It should be from 1914 to 1915. With location “Ottoman Empire”. Lowest estimate: 64,000 and Highest estimate: 300,000 |
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The true number is accually 6 million. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 11:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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We all know about and can’t deny the devastating Armenian, Greek and Assyrian genocide, however I think it would be fair to include the retaliatory genocide as well. |
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:6 million includes the number of Jews, which is mentioned in The Holocaust entry. The 3 million here references the non-Jew ethnic Polish who were exterminated because the Nazis also viewed slavic people as subhuman [[User:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|The Great Mule of Eupatoria]] ([[User talk:The Great Mule of Eupatoria|talk]]) 17:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The sources are below: |
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::I noticed it right now. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 18:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM |
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https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB5.1A.GIF [[Special:Contributions/77.77.216.98|77.77.216.98]] ([[User talk:77.77.216.98|talk]]) 16:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> Per our article, "This list only considers acts which are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides by the legal definition of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide." Not sure this fits. Also, provided source uses the term genocide multiple times but never in conjunction with the massacre of Turks, "Turkey's Armenians also massacred Moslems. Claims that this may have amounted to at least 1,000,000, or even 1,500,000 Moslem dead (table 5.1A, lines 106b and 106e) however, have no substantiation beyond former Young Turks or their officials. Had the Armenians indeed massacred even half this number, the Young Turks surely would have given it wide publicity, photographs and all. They had no better way to counter sympathy for the Armenians they were killing. In any case foreign newsmen and diplomats in the country surely would have noted the massacres. Moreover, the Turkish statistician Ahmed Emin, who was hardly sympathetic to the Armenians, gave (table 5.1A, lines 105 and 106f) an upper limit of 40,000 Moslem Turks killed by Armenians (including possibly by Armenian-Russian troops) in the area occupied by Russian forces after the Russian Revolution in 1917, and at least 128,000 for the 1914-1915 period.7 Given the other estimates and the overall populations involved, I estimate that from 128,000 to 600,000 Moslem Turks and Kurds were killed. Since this was done by Armenian irregulars serving with Russian forces, I split responsibility for these deaths in Turkey between the Russians and Armenians, and show in Table 5.1A (line 255) the Armenian half--probably 75,000 murdered. " [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 19:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Actually in the list provided in the second source it specifically states it to be a genocide and gives the same figure of 64,000-300,000. I see that all sorts of ethnic cleansing campaigns were included in the list. I believe that targeting and mass murdering a specific group should constitute as genocide. Which was the case with Turks although I admit it was on a smaller scale than Armenians. But i think recording it would be fair nevertheless. Maybe other can gove their opinions on the matter as well. [[Special:Contributions/77.77.216.98|77.77.216.98]] ([[User talk:77.77.216.98|talk]]) 23:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Although I think it should be called genocide of Muslims Turks and Kurds, as both ethnicities were affected. [[Special:Contributions/77.77.216.98|77.77.216.98]] ([[User talk:77.77.216.98|talk]]) 23:45, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:Source 1: |
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== Genocide against Bosniaks and Croats by the Chetniks == |
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Tomasz Szarota; Wojciech Materski, eds. (2009). Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami [Poland 1939–1945. Humans and Victims of Repression under two Occupations]. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance (IPN). Archived from the original on 23 March 2012. |
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- Janusz Kurtyka; Zbigniew Gluza. Preface.: "ze pod okupacja sowiecka zginelo w latach 1939–1941, a nastepnie 1944–1945 co najmniej 150 tys [...] Laczne straty smiertelne ludnosci polskiej pod okupacja niemiecka oblicza sie obecnie na ok. 2 770 000. [...] Do tych strat nalezy doliczyc ponad 100 tys. Polaków pomordowanych w latach 1942–1945 przez nacjonalistów ukrainskich (w tym na samym Wolyniu ok. 60 tys. osób [...] Liczba Zydów i Polaków zydowskiego pochodzenia, obywateli II Rzeczypospolitej, zamordowanych przez Niemców siega 2,7– 2,9 mln osób." Translation: "It must be assumed losses of at least 150.000 people during the Soviet occupation from 1939 to 1941 and again from 1944 to 1945 [...] The total fatalities of the Polish population under the German occupation are now estimated at 2,770,000. [...] To these losses should be added more than 100,000 Poles murdered in the years 1942–1945 by Ukrainian nationalists (including about 60,000 in Volhynia [...] The number of Jews and Poles of Jewish ethnicity, citizens of the Second Polish Republic, murdered by the Germans amounts to 2.7–2.9 million people." |
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- Waldemar Grabowski. German and Soviet occupation. Fundamental issues.: "Straty ludnosci panstwa polskiego narodowosci ukrainskiej sa trudne do wyliczenia," Translation: "The losses of ethnic Poles of Ukrainian nationality are difficult to calculate." |
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[[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 12:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Source 2: |
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Change the higher estimate into “138,000” |
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:R. Miller, Phyllis (1995). "Gdansk". In Ring, Trudy; Watson, Noelle; Schellinger, Paul (eds.). International Dictionary of Historic Places. Vol. 2 Northern Europe. New York, USA: Routledge. p. 293. ISBN 1-884964-01-X. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 12:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::Source 3: East, Roger; Pontin, Jolyon (2016). Revolution and Change in Central and Eastern Europe (Revised ed.). New York, NY: Bloomsbury. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-4742-8749-4. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 12:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::J. Goldberg, Harold (2019). Daily Life in Nazi-Occupied Europe. California, USA: ABC-Clio, LLC. pp. 16, 26. ISBN 978-1-4408-5911-3. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 12:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}} I can not access your first and second sources directly. |
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:* Source 1, per the quote provided, it acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust. |
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:* Source 3 (as with the quote for Source 1) acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust. |
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:* Source 4 (as with the quote for Source 1) acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust. |
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:With these 3 sources considered, the change is not done. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 17:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::I accually got these sources from the article [[Nazi war crimes in occupied Poland during World War II]]. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 19:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::It was saying 6 million but i dont know. [[User:NotSoTough|NotSoTough]] ([[User talk:NotSoTough|talk]]) 19:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Unnecessary information under 'Gaza Genocide' == |
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The figure that most Bosniaks use is 106,000 (only for killed Bosniaks) which is different from the Yugoslav government statistics. Some numbers go as high as 150,000 but I couldn’t find relevant sources for it aside from claims. |
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The entry for the Gaza genocide has a bunch of stats about types of harm done other than death, which are included in no other entry. These include people 'under rubble', 'injuries', 'Damage to or destruction of homes and buildings', 'acute food insecurity' and 'internally displaced persons'. No other genocide on this list includes information like that. It is all about death toll. For consistency I think that information should be removed. Alternatively we can fill up all the entries with such information. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 13:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC) |
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When it come to Croats the highest estimate I found was 32,000 maybe someone knows another one. |
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and adding 106,000 and 32,000 I reached the figure of 138,000. |
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:Guys, I am going to remove these additional bits of information from this entry that have no parallel in the other entries, unless someone can defend their inclusion. I will give it a few more days for someone to respond before going ahead. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 11:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Sources: |
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::For what little its worth i see no issue in removing the Information highlighted. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 15:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=873357 |
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::I feel that the number of people buried under the rubble at least is worthy of inclusion, as they are all almost certainly dead and thus can be considered victims of the genocide. A change in wording (i.e. "presumed dead under rubble") might be necessary to communicate this. [[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] ([[User talk:TRCRF22|talk]]) 20:14, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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https://hrcak.srce.hr/103223?lang=en [[Special:Contributions/77.77.216.98|77.77.216.98]] ([[User talk:77.77.216.98|talk]]) 07:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::That seems reasonable. At some point the numbers will be confirmed, but until then there's nothing wrong with including that as a proxy. I will leave it a few more days for comments and then go ahead. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 12:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Okay, I have made the change, leaving in the number under rubble and the estimate of the total proportion of pre-war Gaza population killed. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 17:47, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2024 == |
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== Iraqi Turkmen genocide == |
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{{edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
{{edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
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Rawalpindi Massacre of 1947 should be included. Allegedly the sitting representatives had a hand in the events, and it was aimed only at specific groups in the city. Also, it occurred way before the Partition of India. [[User:Xyznwa|Xyznwa]] ([[User talk:Xyznwa|talk]]) 17:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Iraqi Turkmen genocide |
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Location: Iraq |
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Period From: 2014 |
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Period To: 2017 |
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Lowest Estimate: 3,500 |
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Highest Estimate: 8,400 |
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Sources: |
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https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/2/13/iraqs-turkmen-mobilise-for-a-post-isil-future |
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https://21yyte.org/tr/merkezler/bolgesel-arastirma-merkezleri/orta-dogu-ve-afrika-arastirmalari-merkezi/isidin-irakta-turkmen-cografyasindaki-katliamlari |
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Turkmen_genocide [[Special:Contributions/77.78.230.98|77.78.230.98]] ([[User talk:77.78.230.98|talk]]) 12:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:That [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/2/13/iraqs-turkmen-mobilise-for-a-post-isil-future first link] does not use the word "genocide". Do you have more sources calling this a genocide? [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 13:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Lots of sources Ive seen are classifying this as a genocie. Here you go some of then (not all are in English): |
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::https://www.ft.dk/samling/20141/almdel/uru/bilag/103/1494175.pdf |
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::https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/200720174-amp |
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::https://www.aa.com.tr/ar/الدول-العربية/البرلمان-العراقي-يعتبر-جرائم-داعش-بحق-التركمان-إبادة-جماعية/865821 [[Special:Contributions/77.77.216.98|77.77.216.98]] ([[User talk:77.77.216.98|talk]]) 20:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{Done}} [[User:Parham wiki|Parham wiki]] ([[User talk:Parham wiki|talk]]) 13:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Genocide in Ukraine == |
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@[[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]], re. your revert,[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_genocides&diff=prev&oldid=1184327491] what issues are present? —''[[user:Mzajac|Michael]] [[user_talk:Mzajac|Z]].'' 02:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:See the discussion of [[Talk:List_of_genocides#Gaza|Gaza]] above, many of the same concerns are present in regards to recency, academic consensus, etc. with the addition of the genocidal acts of Russia against Ukraine. If consensus among editors can be agree to add both Palestine and Ukraine there's no problem, but while the contentions exist there is a lack of consensus to add to the list. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 17:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Neither should be dependent on the other, as they are different things. And sorry, please list specific issues you have with this addition. I take it you object because 1) this event is too recent, and 2) you claim there is no academic consensus that the Genocide Convention is being violated by Russia. Does that sum it up? —''[[user:Mzajac|Michael]] [[user_talk:Mzajac|Z]].'' 19:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::While not dependent on each other, the issues that have been highlighted under [[Talk:List_of_genocides#Gaza|Gaza]] are also, from what I can see for the sources we have on Ukraine, also present. |
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:::1) this is not inherently an issue, but has bearing on the ability to find a consensus amongst experts without international prosecution on the crime of genocide. |
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:::2) From what sources we have present, from experts, while there are many willing to view it and call it a genocide (though to varying degrees), they do not represent a broad consensus across experts in any particular discipline, or across disciplines. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 19:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Based on what? Which experts say there is no genocide in Ukraine? —''[[user:Mzajac|Michael]] [[user_talk:Mzajac|Z]].'' 21:10, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sikh Genocide == |
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The 1984 Sikh Genocide in India needs to be added. There is plenty of verifiable support that this was a genocide (see the wiki page [[1984 anti-Sikh riots|here]]) for reference. The title of that page is also incorrectly labeled "riots" when it was government incited and directed, and there was active government involvement as well (local police either actively participating or intentionally refraining from stopping any violence). [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:7CC0:FEC0:8488:78A9:C978:6056|2600:1700:7CC0:FEC0:8488:78A9:C978:6056]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:7CC0:FEC0:8488:78A9:C978:6056|talk]]) 12:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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The process of exterminating Indigenous peoples in the Americas perhaps deserves an entry of its own, though some constituent parts do appear. [[List of Indian massacres in North America|The list of North American massacres of Indigenous peoples]] has its own page with a seemingly endless list of incidents, and when taken together clearly constitutes a singular genocidal effort rather than individual anomalies within the process of colonization. |
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The Uyghur Genocide is listed, in spite of many of the claims about said events -- forced reeducation, forced sterilization, etc. -- were and are practiced on Indigenous peoples on these continents, along with forced removal of lands, which is plainly the definition of ethnic cleansing, and is even accepted as such in [[Ethnic cleansing|the Wikipedia article on "Ethnic Cleansing."]] |
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:Not done. You would need to show that this has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" per the inclusion criteria here. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 01:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Furthermore, the Holodomor even makes an appearance, even though its status as a genocide is so debatable that the note on its very inclusion in this list mentions that fact. If an alleged genocide can be included in this list with a footnote, then I find it particularly jarring that these events, which are confirmable genocidal simply by looking at the words of those who perpetrated them ("our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada" as said Duncan Campbell Scott, architect of Canada's residential school system, or how about George Washington's claim that "the gradual extension of our Settlements will as certainly cause the Savage as the Wolf to retire; both being beasts of prey tho' they differ in shape" -- there are countless admissions such as these). |
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If not as one singular item in the list, then the list may at the very least seek to add individual events such as [[Trail of Tears|The Trail of Tears]], the [[Canadian Indian residential school system|Residential School System]] in Canada/[[American Indian boarding schools|Indian Boarding School]] system in America, the mass sterilization campaigns against Indigenous peoples in places such as [[Forced sterilization in Peru|Peru]] and [[Sterilization of Native American women|the United States]], the [[Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Brazil|ongoing extermination of Amazonian tribes]] in the pursuit of lumber and [[Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Paraguay|likewise events in Paraguay]], etc. etc. etc. [[User:Jackwc123|Jackwc123]] ([[User talk:Jackwc123|talk]]) 18:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Extended confirmed edit request on 29 November 2024 == |
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:Sorry that was an accident [[User:Jackwc123|Jackwc123]] ([[User talk:Jackwc123|talk]]) 18:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC) |
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{{EPER|ans=yes}} |
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== Genocide of Indigenous Americans == |
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Change link for "Libyan Arabs" in the lead from "[[Libyan genocide]]" to "[[Libyan genocide (1929–1934)|Libyan genocide]]" as the former is now a disambiguation page. [[User:Meluiel|Meluiel]] ([[User talk:Meluiel|talk]]) 20:33, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The process of exterminating Indigenous peoples in the Americas perhaps deserves an entry of its own, though some constituent parts do appear. [[List of Indian massacres in North America|The list of North American massacres of Indigenous peoples]] has its own page with a seemingly endless list of incidents, and when taken together clearly constitutes a singular genocidal effort rather than individual anomalies within the process of colonization. |
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:Done. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 22:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The Uyghur Genocide is listed, in spite of many of the claims about said events -- forced reeducation, forced sterilization, etc. -- were and are practiced on Indigenous peoples on these continents, along with forced removal of lands, which is plainly the definition of ethnic cleansing, and is even accepted as such in the Wikipedia article on "[[Ethnic cleansing|Ethnic Cleansing]]." |
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::Thanks! [[User:Meluiel|Meluiel]] ([[User talk:Meluiel|talk]]) 23:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Edit Request to add the Hamas-led Oct. 7th attacks == |
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Furthermore, the Holodomor even makes an appearance, even though its status as a genocide is so debatable that the note on its very inclusion in this list mentions that fact. If an alleged genocide can be included in this list with a footnote, then I find it particularly jarring that these events, which are confirmable genocidal simply by looking at the words of those who perpetrated them ("our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada" as said Duncan Campbell Scott, architect of Canada's residential school system, or how about George Washington's claim that "the gradual extension of our Settlements will as certainly cause the Savage as the Wolf to retire; both being beasts of prey tho' they differ in shape" -- there are countless admissions such as these). |
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Add the Hamas led October 7th attacks to the page. There's an entire Wikipedia entry on the [[Allegations of genocide in the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel|allegations of genocide against Hamas]] so clearly there is significant scholarship that states as much. [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 11:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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If not as one singular item in the list, then the list may at the very least seek to add individual events such as [[Trail of Tears|The Trail of Tears]], the [[Canadian Indian residential school system|Residential School System in Canada]]/[[American Indian boarding schools|Indian Boarding School]] system in America, the mass sterilization campaigns against Indigenous peoples in places such as [[Forced sterilization in Peru|Peru]] and [[Sterilization of Native American women|the United States]], the ongoing [[Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Brazil|extermination of Amazonian tribes]] in the pursuit of lumber and [[Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Paraguay|likewise events in Paraguay]], etc. etc. etc. [[User:Jackwc123|Jackwc123]] ([[User talk:Jackwc123|talk]]) 18:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:If this counts as genocide then unfortunately the number of genocides throughout history must number in the tens of thousands if not more. Since the Wikipedia article is only called '''allegations'' of genocide', I would be against including this one at present. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 14:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:As I recall the discussion was whether to list all of them as one big genocide, to list each one separately or perhaps to add an extra "campaign" column to group them under. A campaign column would be useful for other cases of genocide, for example [[Generalplan Ost]], itself consisting of multiple genocides. If I remember correctly there is also controversy over whether to count dead due to pandemics as part of the American genocides. |
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::As per the extensive conversation above, all that is needed for a genocide to be added to this article is that there be "significant scholarship" accusing it of genocide. That certainly exists for the Hamas led October 7th attacks. |
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:Due to [[WP:SYNTH]] we can't list events as genocides unless there are sources calling them as much, even if they seem obviously genocidal to us. And per [[WP:LISTV]] sources must unambiguously call them genocides in line with the UN definition, as that is the criteria for inclusion on this list. [[User:KetchupSalt|KetchupSalt]] ([[User talk:KetchupSalt|talk]]) 12:15, 21 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Im open to arguments against but "if we add that one we'd need to add a lot more" is an argument against the low standards for genocide that Wikipedia defined, not one against this specific case. After all, most genocides are merely "allegations of genocide" since there's no official body that decided what is or isn't genocide, at least not one that's used as a criterion for this specific list. [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 18:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|User:Fyukfy5}} it would be helpful if you can provide the references for or links to the scholarship showing significant assessment, it would greatly speed up the process of adding the event to the list. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 19:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I will post what I think are the most relevant sources but I also implore any confirmed editors to take a look for themselves in the [[Allegations of genocide in the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel]] under the "Academic and legal discourse" tab. |
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::::Anyway: |
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::::https://archive.today/2023.10.19-000330/https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd4lrsDRg3HbJqoAf0BlAe7BHJuzpQB_Le27Iureq9vpCoBkw/viewform |
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::::https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gaza |
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::::https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4388533-israel-is-not-committing-genocide-but-hamas-is/ |
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::::As I said there are many more but these are just a few. I think the first is the most relevant for being "significant scholarship" seeing as over 200 scholars co-signed the letter accusing the attacks as genocide. [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 20:15, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Scholarship. While these could be used in support of scholarship, scholarship is the requirement. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 21:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Would the open letter nor qualify as scholarship? [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 22:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::A google forms open letter is not scholarship. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 22:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Then what would be? I'm happy to look for things but I don't know what I'm looking for [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 23:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Pieces that are published through academic avenues, so journals and books by academic publishers for example. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 11:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-024-00608-w |
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::::::::::https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003497417-2/holocaust-genocide-october-7-philip-spencer |
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::::::::::https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0406/chapters/10.11647/obp.0406.04 (p. 109, p. 113-114 at least) |
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::::::::::Here are another 3 scholarly sources, unfortunately these are a lot harder to find than simply articles written by scholars. [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 14:00, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::First will be hard to convince people with considering the credentials of the authors and the journal not being related to relevant fields of genocide study. The second is the sort of source needed, a relevant academic stating it is a case of genocide in a book from a respected academic publisher. The third, while from an academic with relevant credentials to this case, doesn't actually state it is a case of genocide in the author's own voice, but he instead refers to others saying it is genocide (p. 109), though p. 113's {{tqq|ignoring what could rationally be depicted as the genocidal nature of Hamas’s 7 October attacks themselves}} statement I would argue is enough to be accepted. For the book chapters it is interesting how the majority of their pages deal less with assessing October 7, and more with seeking to disprove potential genocide in Israel's retaliation (though Spencer goes much further seeking to argue nothing in the history of Palestinians could ever be considered genocide). -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 15:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I'm not a confirmed editor so I can make an RfC or anything but I hope this becomes the launchpad for a robust conversation on whether the Oct. 7th attacks should be added to this list [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 16:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|User:LastDodo}} That's not the inclusion criteria. Regardless of what articles are titled on WP, the inclusion criteria is {{tqq|classified as genocide by significant scholarship}}, for the October 7 attack, there has been statements by good chunk of scholars denouncing the attack as genocidal, but I am not up to date with what scholarship has been published on it yet. If there is {{tqq|significant scholarship}}, either by number or weight, it can, and should be included. As has been elucidated both in the current legal definition of genocide, as well as a multitude of definitions developed by scholars that are more robust analytical tools, there can be very few, or even no deaths, and an event can still be a case of genocide. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 19:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I don't dispute that, and don't have strong enough opinions here to argue it. My concern is only that the term genocide becomes so expansive as to lose all its moral weight. I want to avoid the situation where someone says 'x is genocide!' and someone else replies 'so what, genocides happen every year'. |
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:::Wikipedia's policy is unfortunately flawed, as scholarship is not consistent. For example, consider this passage from the lede of the article [[Dungan Revolt (1862-1877)]]: ''The population reduction of Hui in Shaanxi was particularly severe. According to research by modern historians, at least 4 million Hui were in Shaanxi before the revolt, but only 20,000 remained in the province afterwards, with most of the Hui either killed in massacres and reprisals by government and militia forces, or deported out of the province. For example, on one occasion where 700,000 to 800,000 Hui from Shaanxi were deported to Gansu, most were killed along the way from thirst, starvation, and massacres by the militia escorting them, with only a few thousand surviving.'' |
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:::Yet, I as far as I know there is not even an argument about classifying this as genocide, let alone 'significant scholarship' doing so, so it doesn't get included on the list. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 11:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::As stated previously, numbers of dead are not the metric, either as a gross/raw number, or as a percentage, per a plethora of scholars and legal rulings. Concern for the application of the term genocide (especially in an article like this) requires action outside of WP, as WP does not determine what is or is not a case of genocide, RS do. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 13:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Sure. I accept the policy. Nothing can be done about it. I am trying to speak to the human here, not the Wikipedia editor, and say the WP policy is flawed. If a Wikipedia article said 'there were X million of people A, but people B deliberately exterminated them all in 12 months', but the word genocide was not mentioned in the sources, it wouldn't make this list. Meanwhile the [[Osage Indian Murders]] do make the list - even though they involved killing at a rate of fewer than 2 people per month, and as far as I can see no intent to exterminate - because academics write about them because there were in the USA. Which seems like a flaw in policy to me, the result of which is that this list is only so useful to the average reader. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 15:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' - [[User:Fyukfy5]] isn't remotely extended confirmed, and in my opinion has been indulged far too much in even having a conversation. The initial comment ''maybe'' met [[WP:ARBECR]] but didn't merit this distraction. Better to just ignore and possibly remove further comments from this user. [[User:CAVincent|CAVincent]] ([[User talk:CAVincent|talk]]) 04:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:So I'm allowed to make edit requests but when a confirmed editor asks me to elaborate I can't? [[User:Fyukfy5|Fyukfy5]] ([[User talk:Fyukfy5|talk]]) 05:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== |
== The [[Tamil genocide]]? == |
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Shouldn't the [[Tamil genocide]] be added? [[User:Crocusfleur|Crocusfleur]] ([[User talk:Crocusfleur|talk]]) 15:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I agree. If its not a genocide, then the title of that article should be changed. [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 12:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{done}}—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 16:22, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:As with most of these examples, there isn't consensus that this was genocide, but I think the citations given in that article look to me sufficient to justify adding them here. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 16:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Returning to this issue, I would like to note that as well as the above citations, the incident was described as a genocide in [https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/AHRC48NGO68_210921.pdf an official report to the UNHRC] by the Palestinian Return Centre, and by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission ([https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1311/S00367/kuala-lumpur-war-crimes-commissionisrael-guilty-of-genocide.htm]), which cited several scholars including Bayan al-Hout (an expert on the massacre) in its decision. A civil case [https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-international-justice-sabra-and-chatila-victims alleging genocide] was also brought against Ariel Sharon in Belgium - this case failed, but the dismissal was because Sharon was not present in the country, not because the incident's status as a genocide was disputed. There are a couple of other articles online I could link to if necessary, but I'm not sure if they would be considered RS for what constitutes genocide. [[Special:Contributions/5.61.122.219|5.61.122.219]] ([[User talk:5.61.122.219|talk]]) 16:45, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Add Genocide in Tigray (It has an article) == |
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== Albigensian Crusade == |
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_in_Tigray Add this genocide to the list? [[User:Vanisherman|Vanisherman]] ([[User talk:Vanisherman|talk]]) 05:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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@[[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]], @[[User:Carlotm|Carlotm]] |
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The Albigensian Crusade can't be listed as a genocide because the Cathars were not killed because of their race (a notion that didn't exist yet) but because of their faith. <br> |
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Best Regards,<br> [[User:Belysarius|Belysarius]] ([[User talk:Belysarius|talk]]) 11:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC) |
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: |
:I don't see why not. According to [[genocide in Tigray|that article]], at least 162,000 people were killed, and perhaps as many as 600,000. Anyone object? [[User:LastDodo|LastDodo]] ([[User talk:LastDodo|talk]]) 13:25, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{done}}—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 18:17, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Not sure why I'm tagged specifically for this, as to my recollection I've never added the Albigensian Crusade specifically to the list. If we were to remove all genocides that occurred before the modern invention of race, it means nothing prior to the 18th/19th century would be on here, contrary to academics and experts on the matter. And per the UN definition for genocide under the [[Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide]], "{{blockquote|In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.}}" so your counter as to why the Albigensian Crusade should not be included here falls when held against this. -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 11:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I tagged you because you are the two main contributors to this article and therefore the two most likely to respond to me. I thank you for your response. |
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:::The crusade aimed to convert the Cathars who had recently abandoned Roman Christianity and not to destroy the Albigensian people or Occitan culture. |
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:::Unfortunately if you were to add all religious massacres to this list, it would be infinite and would include for example massacres committed by the Cathars against Catholic civilians in Cathar-held towns. |
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:::Furthermore, the Albigensian crusade is very different from a massacre committed by a strong government against a minority since it is a war between feudal lords and the Albigensian lords had armies, forts and were able to defend themselves and attempt offensives. [[User:Belysarius|Belysarius]] ([[User talk:Belysarius|talk]]) 09:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::::To break this down: |
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::::# We rely on what reputable sources say on a matter, if it is the opinion of the relevant experts in the matter that the Albigensian Crusade counts as a genocide against the Cathars, then it is what should be expressed in the relevant wiki articles. |
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::::# On [[Religious conversion|Conversion]], this may be an argument for it not being a genocide, as conversions forced or otherwise are not explicitly stated in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, though it is not a strong argument due to the following: |
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::::## It can be argued that forced conversions, especially of children of the group would fall under the spirit of 'e', that is "(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group". |
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::::## If we step away from the legal definition adopted by the UN (which is possible as shown by the wealth of academic research around genocide), we can find that forced conversions are considered at least part of cultural genocide, and in some cases genocide. You can even find some discussion of forced conversion as a tool of genocide under the Ottoman Empire [[Forced_conversion#Ottoman_Empire|in this wiki article]]. For a couple of examples of the academic literature you can see [https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1258&context=war_crimes_memos Mallavarapu, 2017] and [https://journals.openedition.org/eac/997 Kurt, 2016]. |
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::::## As religious groups are identified specifically in the Convention, destroying a religious, even if only through conversion, is still the destruction of that religious group. |
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::::## Finally this is all operating under the assumption that all the Albigensian Crusade entailed was in fact just conversions, which we know it was not, and in fact in most cases was the mass killing of both actual and suspected Cathars. |
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::::# You seem to try to separate the Albigensians as being a different form of categorisation than the Cathars, which is wrong, as it's use in the name "Albigensian Crusade" and it's use as an accusation of a heretical movement in Rome's eyes is specific to those they viewed as Cathars. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Albigenses Britannica has a quick read] on this detailing why they were called Albigensians by Rome. |
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::::# If I were to have my say on the matter, yes, we would include a lot more cases of mass killings in this list, but it is not up to us to make the decision, only to report on what the reputable sources say. |
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::::# You seem to argue that a genocide can not be a genocide if the two parties involved are 'separate' polities at war, is this the case? If it is, then a few examples this criteria would see removed from this list would be: the [[Iraqi Turkmen genocide]], the [[Genocide of Yazidis by the Islamic State]], the [[German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war]], the [[Nazi crimes against the Polish nation]], mass sections of the [[Holocaust]] and the [[Romani Holocaust]], and basically all genocides against indigenous peoples during the 17th-19th centuries. This sort of view is at odds with not just the Convention's definition and understanding of the crime of genocide, but also against multiple other definitions and analyses through genocide research. |
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::::-- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 18:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::@[[user:Belysarius]] Consider what CDjP1 posted as coming from my mind completely. Cheers.[[User:Carlotm|Carlotm]] ([[User talk:Carlotm|talk]]) 21:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I also agree with {{u|Cdjp1}}. In particular, (1): we rely on what reliable sources say. We should not be trying to argue this matter based on our interpretation of the criteria. We should look to reliable sources to do the interpreting. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 11:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:The notion of "Cathars" also did not actually exist at the time of the Albigensian Crusade, and this idea of a heterodox sect of gnostic-inspired dualistic Christians in Medieval France has largely been abandoned by current historians. |
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:The term "Cathar" literally doesn't appear once in a single primary source that actually dates from the time, and the document upon which later notions of Catharism were based is widely regarded to be a forgery. Since the group that this article asserts to have been the target of the Albigensian Crusade didn't actually have any coherent existence, its inclusion on this list is absurd. |
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:I know that this is technically OR until I provide sources, but I'm currently on my phone and will provide them later, just leaving this comment now so I don't forget. [[User:Djehuty98|Djehuty98]] ([[User talk:Djehuty98|talk]]) 17:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Pre-emptive conversation: On the inclusion of ''genocidal massacres'' == |
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== Genocide against Bosniaks and Croats by Chetniks in WW2 == |
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I can see this being a potential issue that we will eventually have to make a determination on and that is whether something assessed in {{tqq|significant scholarship}} as a {{tqq|genocidal massacre}} as opposed to a {{tqq|genocide}}, where it is not part of of a broader campaign/instance of genocide (as recognised in {{tqq|significant scholarship}}), should be included in the list? -- [[User:Cdjp1|Cdjp1]] ([[User talk:Cdjp1|talk]]) 20:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Change the higher estimate into “138,000” |
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The figure that most Bosniaks use is 106,000 (only for killed Bosniaks) which is different from the Yugoslav government statistics. Some numbers go as high as 150,000 but I couldn’t find relevant sources for it aside from claims. When it come to Croats the highest estimate I found was 32,000 maybe someone knows another one. and adding 106,000 and 32,000 I reached the figure of 138,000. |
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Sources: https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=873357 https://hrcak.srce.hr/103223?lang=en [[Special:Contributions/80.80.43.235|80.80.43.235]] ([[User talk:80.80.43.235|talk]]) 00:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:Intuitively i think there is a difference between '(isolated/single) genocidal acts' or 'genocidal massacres' and 'genocides' specifically that the later is a campaign of the former. I don't think any naive or intuitive definition of genocide really applies to just one genocidal act. That said we should follow sources and if something is described by scholars as a 'genocidal act/massacre/etc..' but not explicitly as a 'genocide' then it probably doesn't belong here—[[user:blindlynx|blindlynx]] 14:40, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balangiga_massacre == |
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== Include Soviet-Afghan War and Hazara genocide == |
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Not on the list? [[Special:Contributions/178.84.36.81|178.84.36.81]] ([[User talk:178.84.36.81|talk]]) 20:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Both events have numerous sources declaring them as genocide: |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 December 2023 == |
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Soviet Afghan War |
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(copied from [[Genocides in history (1946 to 1999)]] article) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|List of genocides|answered=yes}} |
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Numerous scholars and academics have stated that the [[Soviet military]] perpetrated a genocidal campaign of extermination against Afghan people during the [[Soviet invasion of Afghanistan]].<ref>{{harvnb|Kakar|1997}}:{{page needed|date=July 2024}} "The Afghans are among the latest victims of genocide by a superpower."</ref><ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/genocide.pdf |title=Genocide and the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan |last1=Reisman |first1=W. Michael |last2=Norchi |first2=Charles H. |access-date=7 January 2017 |quote=According to widely reported accounts, substantial programmes of depopulation have been conducted in these Afghan provinces: Ghazni, Nagarhar, Lagham, Qandahar, Zabul, Badakhshan, Lowgar, Paktia, Paktika and Kunar...There is considerable evidence that genocide has been committed against the Afghan people by the combined forces of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan and the Soviet Union. |archive-date=26 October 2016 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161026182528/http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/genocide.pdf |url-status=dead}}</ref> Afghan president [[Mohammed Daoud Khan]] was deposed and murdered in 1978's [[Saur Revolution]] by the [[Khalq]]ist faction of [[People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan]] (PDPA), who subsequently established their own government, the [[Democratic Republic of Afghanistan]].<ref name="Barnett">{{cite book |last=Rubin |first=Barnett R. |author-link=Barnett Rubin |date=2002 |title=The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=laG03iJF7t8C&pg=PA104 |edition=2nd |location=New Haven (CT) |publisher=[[Yale University Press]] |isbn=978-0-300-09519-7 |pages=104–105}}</ref> |
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Please add an entry on the Sabra and Shatila Massacre (I suggested it previously but only 1 user responded). |
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What followed the [[Saur Revolution|April coup of 1978]] was severe repression of a kind previously unknown in Afghanistan. American journalist and [[Center for a New American Security|CNAS]] member [[Robert D. Kaplan]] argued that, while Afghanistan had been "poor" and "underdeveloped", it was a "relatively civilized" country that "had never known very much political repression" until 1978.<ref name="D. Kaplan 2001 115">{{Cite book |last=D. Kaplan |first=Robert |title=Soldiers of God: With Islamic Warriors in Afghanistan and Pakistan |publisher=[[Vintage Books]] |year=2001 |isbn=1-4000-3025-0 |pages=115}}</ref> Political scientist [[Barnett Rubin]] wrote, "Khalq used mass arrests, torture, and secret executions on a scale Afghanistan had not seen since the time of [[Abdur Rahman Khan|Abdul Rahman Khan]], and probably not even then".<ref>{{cite book |last=Rubin |first=Barnett R. |author-link=Barnett Rubin |date=2002 |title=The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=laG03iJF7t8C&pg=PA115 |edition=2nd |location=New Haven (CT) |publisher=[[Yale University Press]] |isbn=978-0-300-09519-7 |page=115}}</ref> After gaining power, the [[Khalq]]ists unleashed a campaign of "[[Soviet–Afghan War#"Red Terror" of the revolutionary government|red terror]]", killing more than 27,000 people in the [[Pul-e-Charkhi prison]], prior to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979.<ref name="D. Kaplan 2001 115"/> |
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Location: Beirut, Lebanon. Date: 1982. Lowest estimated: 460. Highest estimated: 3,500. |
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After Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, deposing and killing [[Hafizullah Amin]] in [[Operation Storm-333]] and installing [[Babrak Karmal]] as General Secretary, the brutality of communists intensified. The army of the Soviet Union killed large numbers of Afghans, attempting to suppress resistance from the [[Afghan mujahideen]].<ref name=":0">{{harvnb|Kakar|1997}}:{{page needed|date=July 2024}} "The Afghans are among the latest victims of genocide by a superpower. Large numbers of Afghans were killed to suppress resistance to the army of the Soviet Union, which wished to vindicate its client regime and realize its goal in Afghanistan."</ref> Numerous mass murders were perpetrated by the Soviet Army during the summer of 1980. Soviet forces also launched chemical attacks against civilian populations.<ref name=":5">{{harvnb|Kakar|1997}}:{{page needed|date=July 2024}} "Incidents of the mass killing of noncombatant civilians were observed in the summer of 1980...the Soviets felt it necessary to suppress defenseless civilians by killing them indiscriminately, by compelling them to flee abroad, and by destroying their crops and means of irrigation, the basis of their livelihood. The dropping of booby traps from the air, the planting of mines, and the use of chemical substances, though not on a wide scale, were also meant to serve the same purpose...they undertook military operations in an effort to ensure speedy submission: hence the wide use of aerial weapons, in particular helicopter gunships or the kind of inaccurate weapons that cannot discriminate between combatants and noncombatants."</ref> During the 1980s, the communist PDPA regime also killed and tortured thousands of individuals in the [[Pul-e-Charkhi prison]].<ref>{{cite news |first=Bilal |last=Sarwary |date=27 February 2006 |title=Kabul's prison of death |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4756480.stm |work=[[BBC News]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240227034833/http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4756480.stm |archive-date=27 February 2024}}</ref> |
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Sources: |
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One notorious atrocity was the [[Laghman massacre]] in April 1985 in the villages of Kas-Aziz-Khan, Charbagh, Bala Bagh, Sabzabad, Mamdrawer, Haider Khan and Pul-i-Joghi<ref name="UPI">{{cite news |title=Diplomats report massacre in Afghanistan |work=[[United Press International]] |url=https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/05/14/Diplomats-report-massacre-in-Afghanistan/5791484891200/ |date=14 May 1985 |access-date=24 August 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221003123120/https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/05/14/Diplomats-report-massacre-in-Afghanistan/5791484891200/ |archive-date=3 October 2022}}</ref> in the [[Laghman Province]]. At least 500 civilians were killed.<ref>{{cite book |last=Bellamy |first=Alex J. |title=Massacres and Morality: Mass Atrocities in an Age of Civilian Immunity |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] |location=Oxford |year=2012 |isbn=9780199288427 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=EK8eK2xPCycC&pg=PA281 |page=281}}</ref> In the [[Kulchabat, Bala Karz and Mushkizi massacre]] which was committed on 12 October 1983, the Red Army gathered 360 people at the village square and shot them, including 20 girls and over a dozen older people.<ref>{{cite news |work=[[The New York Times]] |title=U.N. Rights Study Finds Afghan Abuses by Soviets |author-link=Richard Bernstein (journalist) |first=Richard |last=Bernstein |url=http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/01/world/un-rights-studt-finds-afghan-abuses-by-soviet.html |date=1 March 1985 |access-date=17 April 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200911044911/https://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/01/world/un-rights-studt-finds-afghan-abuses-by-soviet.html |archive-date=11 September 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |work=[[The Sydney Morning Herald]] |location=Sydney, New South Wales |date=4 March 1985 |page=7 |title=UN report attacks Afghan massacres |url=https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/121128050/ |access-date=17 April 2021}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |url=https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/86023?ln=en |title=Report on the situation of human rights in Afghanistan / prepared by the Special Rapporteur, Felix Ermacora, in accordance with Commission on Human Rights resolution 1984/55 |year=1985 |page=31 |journal=[[United Nations Commission on Human Rights]] |location=Geneva |access-date=17 April 2021 |last1=Ermacora |first1=Felix}}</ref> The [[Rauzdi massacre]] and [[Padkhwab-e Shana massacre]] were also documented.<ref name="HRW1984">{{cite web |website=[[Human Rights Watch]] |year=1984 |url=https://www.hrw.org/reports/1984/afghan1284.pdf |title=Tears, Blood and Cries. Human Rights in Afghanistan Since the Invasion 1979–1984 |pages=37–38 |access-date=6 July 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20231116015252/http://www.hrw.org/reports/1984/afghan1284.pdf |archive-date=16 November 2023}}</ref> Approximately 2 million Afghan civilians were killed by the Soviet military and its proxies during the Soviet invasion and occupation.<ref>{{Cite book |last=Klass |first=Rosanne |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=I2chrSJCW54C&q=2+million+afghans+killed+soviet&pg=PA129 |title=The Widening Circle of Genocide |publisher=Transaction Publishers |year=1994 |isbn=9781412839655 |pages=129 |quote=During the intervening fourteen years of Communist rule, an estimated 1.5 to 2 million Afghan civilians were killed by Soviet forces and their proxies- the four Communist regimes in Kabul, and the East Germans, Bulgarians, Czechs, Cubans, Palestinians, Indians and others who assisted them. These were not battle casualties or the unavoidable civilian victims of warfare. Soviet and local Communist forces seldom attacked the scattered guerrilla bands of the Afghan Resistance except, in a few strategic locales like the Panjsher valley. Instead they deliberately targeted the civilian population, primarily in the rural areas.}}</ref> |
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[http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/426/01/IMG/NR042601.pdf?OpenElement United Nations resolution condemning it as a genocide] |
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[[Soviet Air Forces]] perpetrated [[scorched-earth strategy]] during its bombing campaigns, which consisted of [[carpet bombing]] of cities and indiscriminate attacks that destroyed entire villages. Millions of [[Land mine|land-mines]] (often camouflaged as kids' playthings) were planted by Soviet military across Afghanistan. Around 90% of [[Kandahar]]'s inhabitants were forcibly expelled, as a result of Soviet atrocities during the war.<ref name="Borshchevskaya 2022 24">{{Cite book |last=Borshchevskaya |first=Anna |title=Putin's War in Syria |publisher=[[I. B. Tauris]] |year=2022 |isbn=978-0-7556-3463-7 |location=London, UK |pages=24 |chapter=2: The Soviet Union in the Middle East and the Afghanistan Intervention |quote=}}</ref> Everything was the target in the country, from cities, villages, up to schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, factories and orchards. Soviet tactics included targeting areas which showed support for the [[Afghan resistance]], and forcing the populace to flee the rural regions where the communists had no territorial control. Half of Afghanistan's 24,000 villages and most of the rural facilities were destroyed by the end of the war.<ref>{{cite book |last=Goodson |first=Larry P. |url=https://archive.org/details/afghanistansendl00good |title=Afghanistan's Endless War: State Failure, Regional Politics, and the Rise of the Taliban |date=2011 |publisher=[[University of Washington Press]] |isbn=978-0-295-80158-2 |pages=94, 95 |oclc=1026403863}}</ref><ref name="hrw.org">{{cite report |date=6 July 2005 |title=Blood-Stained Hands: Past Atrocities in Kabul and Afghanistan's Legacy of Impunity |url=https://www.hrw.org/report/2005/07/06/blood-stained-hands/past-atrocities-kabul-and-afghanistans-legacy-impunity |publisher=[[Human Rights Watch]] |access-date=11 April 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240224171055/https://www.hrw.org/report/2005/07/06/blood-stained-hands/past-atrocities-kabul-and-afghanistans-legacy-impunity |archive-date=24 February 2024}}</ref> During the Soviet invasion and occupation between 1979 and 1992, more than 20% of the Afghan population were focibly displaced as [[Afghan refugees|refugees]].<ref name="hrw.org"/><ref>{{Cite web |date=16 November 1999 |title=Refugees From Afghanistan: The world's largest single refugee group |url=https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/3ae6a9d110.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201111214654/https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/3ae6a9d110.pdf |archive-date=11 November 2020 |access-date=11 December 2021 |website=www.refworld.org}}</ref> |
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Report of the MacBride Commission in February 1983 (not accessible online that I can find, but discussed in academic works and on the massacre's Wikipedia article) |
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Historians, academics and scholars have widely described the Soviet military campaign in Afghanistan as a genocide. These include American professor [[Samuel Totten]],<ref name="Dictionary of Genocide: A-L">{{cite book |last1=Bartrop |first1=Paul R. |author1-link=Paul R. Bartrop |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=rgGA91skoP4C&pg=PA4 |title=Dictionary of Genocide: A-L |last2=Totten |first2=Samuel |author2-link=Samuel Totten |date=2007 |publisher=[[ABC-CLIO]] |isbn=978-0-313-34642-2 |pages=3, 4 |oclc=437198304}}</ref> Australian professor [[Paul R. Bartrop]],<ref name="Dictionary of Genocide: A-L"/> political scientist Anthony James Joyce,<ref>{{Cite book |last=James Joes |first=Anthony |title=Victorious Insurgencies: Four Rebellions that Shaped Our World |publisher=[[University Press of Kentucky]] |year=2010 |isbn=978-0-8131-2614-2 |pages=211, 213 |chapter=4: Afghanistan: End of the Red Empire}}</ref> scholars from [[Yale Law School]] including W. Michael Reisman and Charles Norchi,<ref name="Reisman">{{cite web |last1=Reisman |first1=W. Michael |last2=Norchi |first2=Charles |title=Genocide and the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan |url=http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/genocide.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161026182528/http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/genocide.pdf |archive-date=26 October 2016 |access-date=7 January 2017 |pages=4–6}}</ref> writer and journalist Rosanne Klass,<ref>{{Cite book |last=Klass |first=Rosanne |title=The Widening Circle of Genocide: Genocide – A Critical Bibliographic Review |publisher=[[Routledge]] |year=2018 |isbn=978-1-351-29406-5 |editor-last=Charny |editor-first=Israel W. |editor-link=Israel Charny |chaGenocides in history (1946 to 1999)Genocides in history (1946 to 1999)pter=Genocide in Afghanistan 1978–1992 |oclc=1032709528 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=I2chrSJCW54C&pg=PA129}}</ref> Canadian professor [[Adam Jones (Canadian scholar)|Adam Jones]]<ref>{{Cite book |last=Jones |first=Adam |author-link=Adam Jones (Canadian scholar) |title=Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction |publisher=[[Routledge]] |year=2011 |isbn=978-0-415-48618-7 |edition=2nd |location=New York, NY |pages=77–79 |chapter=2: State and Empire; War and Revolution}}</ref> and historian Mohammed Kakar.{{sfn|Kakar|1997|p=215}} American [[anthropologist]] [[Louis Dupree (professor)|Louis Dupree]] stated that Afghans were victims of "migratory genocide" implemented by [[Soviet Armed Forces|Soviet military]].<ref name="Borshchevskaya 2022 24"/> |
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[https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/AHRC48NGO68_210921.pdf An official report to the UNHRC] by the Palestinian Return Centre |
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Sources for [[Hazara genocide (19th century)]] |
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The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, a description which academic Bayan al-Hout concurred with (judgement reported [https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1311/S00367/kuala-lumpur-war-crimes-commissionisrael-guilty-of-genocide.htm here]) |
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Zamani, Ezzatullah (September 2019). "The 'Genocide of the Hazaras' in Afghanistan from 1884 to 1905 and subsequent genocidal campaigns and target killings against them in the 21st century" |
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Hakimi, Mehdi J. (25 July 2023). "The Afghan State and the Hazara Genocide". Harvard Human Rights Journal. 37. |
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[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270031317_Nakba_Memoricide_Genocide_Studies_and_the_ZionistIsraeli_Genocide_of_Palestine Nakba Memoricide: Genocide Studies and the Zionist/Israeli Genocide of Palestine], article by genocide scholars Damien Short and Haifa Rashed |
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Ibrahimi, Niamatullah (1 October 2017). The Hazaras and the Afghan State: Rebellion, Exclusion and the Struggle for Recognition. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-1-84904-981-8. |
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[https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/feature-sabra-and-chatila Sabra and Shatila: memories of a massacre] in the ''Morning Star'' (which I'm aware probably isn't RS for what constitutes genocide, but it seems to be applying the UN definition in the article) |
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https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Committee/441/FAAE/Reports/RP13256076/faaerp27/faaerp27-e.pdf |
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[https://solidarity.net.au/highlights/sabra-and-shatila-40-years-on-israels-brutal-war-crime/ Article by Solidarity] |
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[[ |
https://civilrights.org/blog/the-hazara-genocide-and-systemic-discrimination-in-afghanistan/ [[User:Vanisherman|Vanisherman]] ([[User talk:Vanisherman|talk]]) 14:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:Shadow311|Shadow311]] ([[User talk:Shadow311|talk]]) 15:59, 14 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Genocides against Tibetan and Uyghur peoples by the Chinese Communist Party.
[edit]Where are the active genocides against the Muslim Uyghurs in China's Xinjiang province and against Tibetan Buddhists in Tibet?
To call these atrocities anything other than genocide is a disgrace. If Israel's actions in Palestine can be called a genocide, then the CCP's ongoing attempt to exterminate and sinophy the Uyghur and Tibetan peoples and religions should absolutely be labelled a genocide. Jbak0905 (talk) 09:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- "Uyghur genocide" was previously listed in the article but was removed for failing the inclusion criteria back when we used the UN definition. Now that the inclusion criteria has changed it may be time for another discussion about it. TRCRF22 (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Under the new inclusion criteria Uyghur should certainly be included. Tibet is usually characterized as a 'cultural genocide' so would require further discussion to establish clear consensus—blindlynx 14:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Endwise: As the user who removed the Uyghur genocide entry from the list, could you offer an opinion? TRCRF22 (talk) 09:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- It should be noted that one of the reasons for removing it was a lack of death toll. Every single entry in the article's list has a death toll. The Uyghur genocide, when it was listed here, was the only entry that did not have a death toll. Given that the article Uyghur genocide itself had its title changed to Persecution of Uyghurs in China, you should first go there and argue for a restoration of that article's title. But you should familiarize yourself with the subject matter and the discussion behind the decision here. JasonMacker (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- These are considered “cultural genocide” if I am not mistaken, as opposed to genocide in the liter sense here, the mass killing of thousands of people with intent to destroy them The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
- I can't speak to the situation in Tibet, about which I am totally uninformed, but several experts have described the persecution of Uyghurs as meeting the standard of the Genocide Convention. While it's true that there are no (or very few) deaths, genocide can also be committed by "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", and by "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group", both of which have been documented against Uyghurs. TRCRF22 (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- From the article Persecution of Uyghurs in China, the following scholarship is mentioned or cited as it being a case of genocide (as opposed to cultural genocide):
- Finley, Joanne (2020). "Why Scholars and Activists Increasingly Fear a Uyghur Genocide in Xinjiang". Journal of Genocide Research. 23 (3). Newcastle University: 348–370. doi:10.1080/14623528.2020.1848109. ISSN 1462-3528. S2CID 236962241.
- Fiskejö, Magnus (2020). "Forced Confessions as Identity Conversion in China's Concentration Camps". Monde Chinois . 62 (2): 28–43 – via Cairn.info.
- "Chinese Persecution of the Uyghurs". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. 2021.
- "CASCA Statement on Xinjiang" (PDF). Canadian Anthropology Society. 28 June 2021. Archived (PDF) from the original on 1 July 2021. Retrieved 4 July 2021.
- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have time in the near future to do the digging myself, but looking for papers published in the following journals concluding it is a genocide would help bolster the argument for inclusion (and should be added to the Persecution article):
- Journal of Genocide Research
- Genocide Studies and Prevention
- Holocaust and Genocide Studies
- Genocide Studies International
- Journal of Human Rights Practice
- The International Journal of Human Rights
- American Journal of International Law
- Human Rights Quarterly
- European Journal of International Law
- American Journal of Comparative Law
- Virginia Journal of International Law
- Chicago Journal of International Law
- Journal of International Criminal Justice
- Fordham International Law Journal
- International Journal of Transitional Justice
- German Law Journal
- Human Rights Law Review
- Cornell International Law Journal
- Vanderbilt Journal of Transnational Law
- Michigan Journal of International Law
- New York University Journal of International Law & Policy
- Journal of Contemporary China
- The China Quarterly
- Journal of Chinese Political Science
- The Chinese Journal of International Politics
- Chinese Sociological Review
- Chinese Political Science Review
- Journal of Chinese Governance
- The China Journal
- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- There is one other supporting academic source included in the article that you've missed. "The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China’s Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention" is a paper by the scholar Azeem Ibrahim and includes contributions from dozens of genocide scholars, international law experts and experts on Chinese ethnic policies. The article also discusses a legal opinion from the Essex Court Chambers authored in part by Alison Macdonald KC - an expert in human rights and international law - which found a "very credible case" for there being a genocide against Uyghurs. TRCRF22 (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have time in the near future to do the digging myself, but looking for papers published in the following journals concluding it is a genocide would help bolster the argument for inclusion (and should be added to the Persecution article):
- From the article Persecution of Uyghurs in China, the following scholarship is mentioned or cited as it being a case of genocide (as opposed to cultural genocide):
- I can't speak to the situation in Tibet, about which I am totally uninformed, but several experts have described the persecution of Uyghurs as meeting the standard of the Genocide Convention. While it's true that there are no (or very few) deaths, genocide can also be committed by "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", and by "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group", both of which have been documented against Uyghurs. TRCRF22 (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- There is no factual basis for the claim that the Chinese government is attempting to exterminate Uyghurs or Tibetans. And that probably has a lot to do with why it's not included here. 2601:645:D00:4B80:7C84:2092:82F3:4E1D (talk) 07:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think it should be included just because several governments recognize it as a genocide. ScmHstu (talk) 21:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
[edit]Why is this genocide not included in the list? It was a large genocide of Poles, where around 100000 Poles were killed by UPA militias. On the list we have aslo have other genocides done by fasists militias/partisants (Genocides done by the Chetniks), so Volhynia genocide should be aslo included. Szturnek¿? 16:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- You would need to show that this has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" per the inclusion criteria here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:37, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Based on the sources we have in the section Volhynia and Eastern Galicia of Genocides in history (World War I through World War II), while some Polish academics have said there are characteristics of genocide, they say that it was a campaign of ethnic cleansing. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- i think Snyder also calls it an act of genocide but not sure where—blindlynx 23:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx just a quick 10 minutes check, but these three sources seem to have Snyder calling the killings of Jews in the area genocide, while calling the killing of Poles ethnic cleansing. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Cdjp1 Ahh that tracks, sorry for the miss remembering—blindlynx 13:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx no problem, there could be more sources out there, and I will eventually get to doing a more in depth check for Poles in Volhynia and Galicia, but this probably wont be till into next year. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Cdjp1 Ahh that tracks, sorry for the miss remembering—blindlynx 13:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx just a quick 10 minutes check, but these three sources seem to have Snyder calling the killings of Jews in the area genocide, while calling the killing of Poles ethnic cleansing. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- i think Snyder also calls it an act of genocide but not sure where—blindlynx 23:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- If we have Siege of Leningrad on the list, because some Russian historians claim, so Volhynia Massacre should be aslo added, because for exaple IPN claims officially that Volhynia was a genocide (link). Additionally, is ethnic cleansing significantly different from genocide? In particular, since the UPA murdered Poles on the spot, rather than deporting them. If this is a significant difference, then why do we have various NKVD operations on the list that are described as ethnic cleansing, not genocide? Szturnek¿? 13:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've gone through some of the original 2008 piece by Piotr Zając and the characterisation in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia of Genocides in history (World War I through World War II) was incorrect, so I've updated that. Zając concludes that the crimes were genocide, ideally we'd have more sources from other individuals. @Szturnek: if you can help finding/providing such sources, I'd see no issue in including Volhynia and Galicia. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- Based on the sources we have in the section Volhynia and Eastern Galicia of Genocides in history (World War I through World War II), while some Polish academics have said there are characteristics of genocide, they say that it was a campaign of ethnic cleansing. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Genocide of germany 1940-1945
[edit]In total, Allied bombing campaigns conducted by the UK and US are estimated to have killed between 305,000 and 410,000 German civilians during World War II.
If Gaza genocide is included, so should this. 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 06:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- This is not how content decisions are made. Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I can provide a source for the civillian death toll of ww2. Could you explain what you mean by 'Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy.'; does this not conform to policy? If so you must cite the policy. 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- You would need WP:reliable sources which explicitly call the bombings a genocide. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Sure. The statement "if A is included, then B should be included", where A=Gaza genocide and B=Allied bombing campaigns is an invalid decision procedure. The inclusion of B has no dependency on the inclusion of A, or vice versa. The inclusion test for this article is "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" and that test should be applied independently to A and B. So, you can see that providing a civilian death toll statistic wouldn't tell you anything about whether an event has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship". Only sampling reliable sources can answer that question. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- It's an interesting thing to think about. In germany 300-400k civillians were bombed, and in Japan a similar number were killed by the atomic bombs. These were defensive wars fought by the US and UK. But in abscence of some journalist/scholar calling that Genocide, it isn't, and the bombing of gaza, which is a defensive war fought by Israel, is a genocide because a scholar did. Where is the explanation for why Gaza is a genocide in distinction to other strategic bombing such as in ww2? And why is the fact that international courts have not determined gaza to be a genocide taken into account? 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Fundamentally you're correct about a lot of this analysis, but ultimately it's WP:OR. Wikipedia includes things based on the prevalence of reliable sources. Sources currently describe Gaza as a genocide, but not Germany. — Czello (music) 10:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thinking about it probably won't help. I find not thinking about it, not caring and just following the policies and guidelines works better in Wikipedia. Having an expectation of consistency, that things should make sense, seems to be almost always wrong. Reliable sources just say what they say. The information doesn't need to be globally consistent or make sense. And like Czello says, Wikipedia content just reflects reliable source content. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Israel is not fighting a ‘defensive’ war, so that excuse doesn’t work. You don’t defend yourself against the people you occupy and oppress after they fight back The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this is something like Whataboutism. NotSoTough (talk) 11:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- This seems like it. Also the way Gaza genocide is mentioned alongside this, it’s a common ‘argument’ I’ve seen people use to justify it by bringing up allied bombings of axis powers as if the two are remotely the same. Also him describing the war on Gaza as “defensive” even though Israel occupies Palestine and as a result default Palestinian resistance groups are the defenders by default The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:36, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this is something like Whataboutism. NotSoTough (talk) 11:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- You are 100% correct but this doesn't show that any changes need to be made to the article itself, rather to Wikipedia alarmingly low standards for what should be considered a genocide.
- If 20 scholars from 1 university all publish articles in popular papers claiming an event is a genocide is that "significant"? What if the event happens in a country with freedom of the press so more debate around it happens, does that make it more of a genocide than if it were to occur in a dictatorship that doesn't allow those debates to take place?
- The criteria for which something counts as a genocide on this article needs a complete overhaul, ideally using 1 or 2 trusted, supernational committees to determine it rather than thousands of "scholars" out of which only a "significant" amount need to agree in order to make it an official genocide. Fyukfy5 (talk) 11:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as an 'official genocide'. And if your concern is that the current state of affairs means there is a risk of Israel being included, that is not a legitimate reason. You do not have the privileges to express your alarm about such things here. You do not have the extendedconfirmed privilege and therefore your speech is limited by the WP:ARBECR rule, as you presumably already know because you have been told "If you continue to violate WP:ECR...you will be blocked from editing." Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's an interesting thing to think about. In germany 300-400k civillians were bombed, and in Japan a similar number were killed by the atomic bombs. These were defensive wars fought by the US and UK. But in abscence of some journalist/scholar calling that Genocide, it isn't, and the bombing of gaza, which is a defensive war fought by Israel, is a genocide because a scholar did. Where is the explanation for why Gaza is a genocide in distinction to other strategic bombing such as in ww2? And why is the fact that international courts have not determined gaza to be a genocide taken into account? 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I can provide a source for the civillian death toll of ww2. Could you explain what you mean by 'Content decisions should be based on reliable sources and Wikipedia policy.'; does this not conform to policy? If so you must cite the policy. 2A00:23C5:6433:4301:6DA1:980D:A0D:4500 (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- They both not the same. NotSoTough (talk) 09:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Proposing to remove Gaza Genocide from the list
[edit]This page has recently become a firestorm due to the inclusion of the accused Gaza Genocide into the page. The insertion of the Gaza Genocide into the page is as blatant of a NPOV violation that you could possibly get. The ninth word in the Gaza Genocide article is accused. Not committing, nor committed, accused. Even the ICJ, who is spearheading the investigation into Israel's action in Gaza, has not classified Israel's actions as genocidal. I propose to open a new discussion about the inclusion of Gaza Genocide on this page. Pyramids09 (talk) 08:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Based on this, and the recent increase in the number of non-extended confirmed interactions with the page, I assume off-site social media activity/coordination/influence operations etc. may be impacting the talk page. Apparently is extremely easy to manipulate susceptible people and send them to Wikipedia to do something. If it continues the talk page may need to be EC-protected. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- There has been a clear uptick in comments made on this talk page recently, all essentially saying the same thing. I agree that an EC protection might be necessary (given that one needs to be EC to participate here beyond basic edit requests). — Czello (music) 10:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Also, whether "This page has recently become a firestorm" or not is not relevant to our internal processes and discussions about content. Wikipedia editors make the content decisions based on our rules regardless of what is happening off-site. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- IOHANNVSVERVS, I reverted the strike out because Pyramids09 was granted extendedconfirmed on 2021-06-25, 67 days after registration. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, my striking their edit was a mistake. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Expressing sympathy and thanks to IOHANNVSVERVS. Even trying to keep up with this talk page is beyond me. Thank you for trying to keep some order here. I'd have probably just left WP for a while. CAVincent (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, my striking their edit was a mistake. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- IOHANNVSVERVS, I reverted the strike out because Pyramids09 was granted extendedconfirmed on 2021-06-25, 67 days after registration. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Euro-Med HRM, Law for Palestine, the UN, the Lemkin Institute, hundreds of scholars and thousands of lawyers have all described it as genocide. Just because the ICJ has not yet made a determination, which you know full well is because they are still hearing the case and so cannot deliver a verdict, does not mean we should exclude. TRCRF22 (talk) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
This discussion is largely off-topic. Regarding the suggestion of Pyramids09 that we "open a new discussion about the inclusion of Gaza Genocide", I don't think that's a good idea as we just had a lengthy RfC on this question which was closed on Sept 3.[15] Also of note is the inclusion criteria of this list, which is stated in the lead of the article:
This list includes all events which have been classified as genocide by significant scholarship. As there are varying definitions of genocide, this list includes events around which there is ongoing scholarly debate over their classification as genocide and is not a list of only events which have a scholarly consensus to recognize them as genocide.s genocide.
-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- If there is ongoing debate over whether it is a genocide, as is the case with Gaza, then it should not be included. Or separated into a list of alleged genocides. Wikipedia is there to spread common knowledge, not propaganda and things that are debated.
- I strongly Support deleting the Gaza genocide from the list. Epomis87 (talk) 09:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
This list includes all events which have been classified as genocide by significant scholarship.
Scholarly and expert opinions on the Gaza genocide
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Other scholars have offered opinions relating to the topic of incitement to genocide, but have not specifically drawn conclusions on the question of genocide itself.
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- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- Every genocide is debated The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 09:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do not see any RFC with consensus to include it. Just saying. My very best wishes (talk) 23:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The RFC has been archived and can be found here. TRCRF22 (talk) 12:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, I did not see it earlier. It was "include". As our page says "Israel has been accused of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people by a number of experts, governments, United Nations agencies...". It appears that the criteria for inclusion are changed. It is enough to have significant well-sourced accusations or claims of something to be a genocide, including claims by scholars. Then we can include a lot more items here. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- In fact we should, but the task of having consistency across the various lists in this topic area seems to have slowed—blindlynx 23:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I chose to focus on adding entries to the genocides in history articles per new literature. I will get back to trying to harmonise the articles in line with their specific criteria, but for the next few months I have a huge amount of irl priorities. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- In fact we should, but the task of having consistency across the various lists in this topic area seems to have slowed—blindlynx 23:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, I did not see it earlier. It was "include". As our page says "Israel has been accused of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian people by a number of experts, governments, United Nations agencies...". It appears that the criteria for inclusion are changed. It is enough to have significant well-sourced accusations or claims of something to be a genocide, including claims by scholars. Then we can include a lot more items here. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Nazi crimes against the Polish Nation
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The true number is accually 6 million. NotSoTough (talk) 11:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- 6 million includes the number of Jews, which is mentioned in The Holocaust entry. The 3 million here references the non-Jew ethnic Polish who were exterminated because the Nazis also viewed slavic people as subhuman The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed it right now. NotSoTough (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 1:
Tomasz Szarota; Wojciech Materski, eds. (2009). Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami [Poland 1939–1945. Humans and Victims of Repression under two Occupations]. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance (IPN). Archived from the original on 23 March 2012.
- Janusz Kurtyka; Zbigniew Gluza. Preface.: "ze pod okupacja sowiecka zginelo w latach 1939–1941, a nastepnie 1944–1945 co najmniej 150 tys [...] Laczne straty smiertelne ludnosci polskiej pod okupacja niemiecka oblicza sie obecnie na ok. 2 770 000. [...] Do tych strat nalezy doliczyc ponad 100 tys. Polaków pomordowanych w latach 1942–1945 przez nacjonalistów ukrainskich (w tym na samym Wolyniu ok. 60 tys. osób [...] Liczba Zydów i Polaków zydowskiego pochodzenia, obywateli II Rzeczypospolitej, zamordowanych przez Niemców siega 2,7– 2,9 mln osób." Translation: "It must be assumed losses of at least 150.000 people during the Soviet occupation from 1939 to 1941 and again from 1944 to 1945 [...] The total fatalities of the Polish population under the German occupation are now estimated at 2,770,000. [...] To these losses should be added more than 100,000 Poles murdered in the years 1942–1945 by Ukrainian nationalists (including about 60,000 in Volhynia [...] The number of Jews and Poles of Jewish ethnicity, citizens of the Second Polish Republic, murdered by the Germans amounts to 2.7–2.9 million people." - Waldemar Grabowski. German and Soviet occupation. Fundamental issues.: "Straty ludnosci panstwa polskiego narodowosci ukrainskiej sa trudne do wyliczenia," Translation: "The losses of ethnic Poles of Ukrainian nationality are difficult to calculate."
NotSoTough (talk) 12:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 2:
- R. Miller, Phyllis (1995). "Gdansk". In Ring, Trudy; Watson, Noelle; Schellinger, Paul (eds.). International Dictionary of Historic Places. Vol. 2 Northern Europe. New York, USA: Routledge. p. 293. ISBN 1-884964-01-X. NotSoTough (talk) 12:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 3: East, Roger; Pontin, Jolyon (2016). Revolution and Change in Central and Eastern Europe (Revised ed.). New York, NY: Bloomsbury. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-4742-8749-4. NotSoTough (talk) 12:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- J. Goldberg, Harold (2019). Daily Life in Nazi-Occupied Europe. California, USA: ABC-Clio, LLC. pp. 16, 26. ISBN 978-1-4408-5911-3. NotSoTough (talk) 12:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Source 3: East, Roger; Pontin, Jolyon (2016). Revolution and Change in Central and Eastern Europe (Revised ed.). New York, NY: Bloomsbury. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-4742-8749-4. NotSoTough (talk) 12:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Not done I can not access your first and second sources directly.
- Source 1, per the quote provided, it acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust.
- Source 3 (as with the quote for Source 1) acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust.
- Source 4 (as with the quote for Source 1) acknowledges and specifies how 3 million were non-Jews, and 3 million were Jews, in line with the entry which mentions the 3 million Polish Jews being killed as part of the Holocaust.
- With these 3 sources considered, the change is not done. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I accually got these sources from the article Nazi war crimes in occupied Poland during World War II. NotSoTough (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- It was saying 6 million but i dont know. NotSoTough (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Unnecessary information under 'Gaza Genocide'
[edit]The entry for the Gaza genocide has a bunch of stats about types of harm done other than death, which are included in no other entry. These include people 'under rubble', 'injuries', 'Damage to or destruction of homes and buildings', 'acute food insecurity' and 'internally displaced persons'. No other genocide on this list includes information like that. It is all about death toll. For consistency I think that information should be removed. Alternatively we can fill up all the entries with such information. LastDodo (talk) 13:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Guys, I am going to remove these additional bits of information from this entry that have no parallel in the other entries, unless someone can defend their inclusion. I will give it a few more days for someone to respond before going ahead. LastDodo (talk) 11:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- For what little its worth i see no issue in removing the Information highlighted. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I feel that the number of people buried under the rubble at least is worthy of inclusion, as they are all almost certainly dead and thus can be considered victims of the genocide. A change in wording (i.e. "presumed dead under rubble") might be necessary to communicate this. TRCRF22 (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable. At some point the numbers will be confirmed, but until then there's nothing wrong with including that as a proxy. I will leave it a few more days for comments and then go ahead. LastDodo (talk) 12:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I have made the change, leaving in the number under rubble and the estimate of the total proportion of pre-war Gaza population killed. LastDodo (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Rawalpindi Massacre of 1947 should be included. Allegedly the sitting representatives had a hand in the events, and it was aimed only at specific groups in the city. Also, it occurred way before the Partition of India. Xyznwa (talk) 17:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- Not done. You would need to show that this has been "classified as genocide by significant scholarship" per the inclusion criteria here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Extended confirmed edit request on 29 November 2024
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Change link for "Libyan Arabs" in the lead from "Libyan genocide" to "Libyan genocide" as the former is now a disambiguation page. Meluiel (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! Meluiel (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Edit Request to add the Hamas-led Oct. 7th attacks
[edit]Add the Hamas led October 7th attacks to the page. There's an entire Wikipedia entry on the allegations of genocide against Hamas so clearly there is significant scholarship that states as much. Fyukfy5 (talk) 11:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- If this counts as genocide then unfortunately the number of genocides throughout history must number in the tens of thousands if not more. Since the Wikipedia article is only called 'allegations of genocide', I would be against including this one at present. LastDodo (talk) 14:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- As per the extensive conversation above, all that is needed for a genocide to be added to this article is that there be "significant scholarship" accusing it of genocide. That certainly exists for the Hamas led October 7th attacks.
- Im open to arguments against but "if we add that one we'd need to add a lot more" is an argument against the low standards for genocide that Wikipedia defined, not one against this specific case. After all, most genocides are merely "allegations of genocide" since there's no official body that decided what is or isn't genocide, at least not one that's used as a criterion for this specific list. Fyukfy5 (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fyukfy5: it would be helpful if you can provide the references for or links to the scholarship showing significant assessment, it would greatly speed up the process of adding the event to the list. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- I will post what I think are the most relevant sources but I also implore any confirmed editors to take a look for themselves in the Allegations of genocide in the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel under the "Academic and legal discourse" tab.
- Anyway:
- https://archive.today/2023.10.19-000330/https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd4lrsDRg3HbJqoAf0BlAe7BHJuzpQB_Le27Iureq9vpCoBkw/viewform
- https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gaza
- https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4388533-israel-is-not-committing-genocide-but-hamas-is/
- As I said there are many more but these are just a few. I think the first is the most relevant for being "significant scholarship" seeing as over 200 scholars co-signed the letter accusing the attacks as genocide. Fyukfy5 (talk) 20:15, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Scholarship. While these could be used in support of scholarship, scholarship is the requirement. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would the open letter nor qualify as scholarship? Fyukfy5 (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- A google forms open letter is not scholarship. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then what would be? I'm happy to look for things but I don't know what I'm looking for Fyukfy5 (talk) 23:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pieces that are published through academic avenues, so journals and books by academic publishers for example. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-024-00608-w
- https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003497417-2/holocaust-genocide-october-7-philip-spencer
- https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0406/chapters/10.11647/obp.0406.04 (p. 109, p. 113-114 at least)
- Here are another 3 scholarly sources, unfortunately these are a lot harder to find than simply articles written by scholars. Fyukfy5 (talk) 14:00, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- First will be hard to convince people with considering the credentials of the authors and the journal not being related to relevant fields of genocide study. The second is the sort of source needed, a relevant academic stating it is a case of genocide in a book from a respected academic publisher. The third, while from an academic with relevant credentials to this case, doesn't actually state it is a case of genocide in the author's own voice, but he instead refers to others saying it is genocide (p. 109), though p. 113's
ignoring what could rationally be depicted as the genocidal nature of Hamas’s 7 October attacks themselves
statement I would argue is enough to be accepted. For the book chapters it is interesting how the majority of their pages deal less with assessing October 7, and more with seeking to disprove potential genocide in Israel's retaliation (though Spencer goes much further seeking to argue nothing in the history of Palestinians could ever be considered genocide). -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)- I'm not a confirmed editor so I can make an RfC or anything but I hope this becomes the launchpad for a robust conversation on whether the Oct. 7th attacks should be added to this list Fyukfy5 (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- First will be hard to convince people with considering the credentials of the authors and the journal not being related to relevant fields of genocide study. The second is the sort of source needed, a relevant academic stating it is a case of genocide in a book from a respected academic publisher. The third, while from an academic with relevant credentials to this case, doesn't actually state it is a case of genocide in the author's own voice, but he instead refers to others saying it is genocide (p. 109), though p. 113's
- Pieces that are published through academic avenues, so journals and books by academic publishers for example. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then what would be? I'm happy to look for things but I don't know what I'm looking for Fyukfy5 (talk) 23:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- A google forms open letter is not scholarship. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would the open letter nor qualify as scholarship? Fyukfy5 (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Scholarship. While these could be used in support of scholarship, scholarship is the requirement. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fyukfy5: it would be helpful if you can provide the references for or links to the scholarship showing significant assessment, it would greatly speed up the process of adding the event to the list. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @LastDodo: That's not the inclusion criteria. Regardless of what articles are titled on WP, the inclusion criteria is
classified as genocide by significant scholarship
, for the October 7 attack, there has been statements by good chunk of scholars denouncing the attack as genocidal, but I am not up to date with what scholarship has been published on it yet. If there issignificant scholarship
, either by number or weight, it can, and should be included. As has been elucidated both in the current legal definition of genocide, as well as a multitude of definitions developed by scholars that are more robust analytical tools, there can be very few, or even no deaths, and an event can still be a case of genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)- I don't dispute that, and don't have strong enough opinions here to argue it. My concern is only that the term genocide becomes so expansive as to lose all its moral weight. I want to avoid the situation where someone says 'x is genocide!' and someone else replies 'so what, genocides happen every year'.
- Wikipedia's policy is unfortunately flawed, as scholarship is not consistent. For example, consider this passage from the lede of the article Dungan Revolt (1862-1877): The population reduction of Hui in Shaanxi was particularly severe. According to research by modern historians, at least 4 million Hui were in Shaanxi before the revolt, but only 20,000 remained in the province afterwards, with most of the Hui either killed in massacres and reprisals by government and militia forces, or deported out of the province. For example, on one occasion where 700,000 to 800,000 Hui from Shaanxi were deported to Gansu, most were killed along the way from thirst, starvation, and massacres by the militia escorting them, with only a few thousand surviving.
- Yet, I as far as I know there is not even an argument about classifying this as genocide, let alone 'significant scholarship' doing so, so it doesn't get included on the list. LastDodo (talk) 11:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- As stated previously, numbers of dead are not the metric, either as a gross/raw number, or as a percentage, per a plethora of scholars and legal rulings. Concern for the application of the term genocide (especially in an article like this) requires action outside of WP, as WP does not determine what is or is not a case of genocide, RS do. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure. I accept the policy. Nothing can be done about it. I am trying to speak to the human here, not the Wikipedia editor, and say the WP policy is flawed. If a Wikipedia article said 'there were X million of people A, but people B deliberately exterminated them all in 12 months', but the word genocide was not mentioned in the sources, it wouldn't make this list. Meanwhile the Osage Indian Murders do make the list - even though they involved killing at a rate of fewer than 2 people per month, and as far as I can see no intent to exterminate - because academics write about them because there were in the USA. Which seems like a flaw in policy to me, the result of which is that this list is only so useful to the average reader. LastDodo (talk) 15:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- As stated previously, numbers of dead are not the metric, either as a gross/raw number, or as a percentage, per a plethora of scholars and legal rulings. Concern for the application of the term genocide (especially in an article like this) requires action outside of WP, as WP does not determine what is or is not a case of genocide, RS do. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - User:Fyukfy5 isn't remotely extended confirmed, and in my opinion has been indulged far too much in even having a conversation. The initial comment maybe met WP:ARBECR but didn't merit this distraction. Better to just ignore and possibly remove further comments from this user. CAVincent (talk) 04:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- So I'm allowed to make edit requests but when a confirmed editor asks me to elaborate I can't? Fyukfy5 (talk) 05:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
The Tamil genocide?
[edit]Shouldn't the Tamil genocide be added? Crocusfleur (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. If its not a genocide, then the title of that article should be changed. LastDodo (talk) 12:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Done—blindlynx 16:22, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Add Genocide in Tigray (It has an article)
[edit]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_in_Tigray Add this genocide to the list? Vanisherman (talk) 05:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see why not. According to that article, at least 162,000 people were killed, and perhaps as many as 600,000. Anyone object? LastDodo (talk) 13:25, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Done—blindlynx 18:17, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Pre-emptive conversation: On the inclusion of genocidal massacres
[edit]I can see this being a potential issue that we will eventually have to make a determination on and that is whether something assessed in significant scholarship
as a genocidal massacre
as opposed to a genocide
, where it is not part of of a broader campaign/instance of genocide (as recognised in significant scholarship
), should be included in the list? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Intuitively i think there is a difference between '(isolated/single) genocidal acts' or 'genocidal massacres' and 'genocides' specifically that the later is a campaign of the former. I don't think any naive or intuitive definition of genocide really applies to just one genocidal act. That said we should follow sources and if something is described by scholars as a 'genocidal act/massacre/etc..' but not explicitly as a 'genocide' then it probably doesn't belong here—blindlynx 14:40, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Include Soviet-Afghan War and Hazara genocide
[edit]Both events have numerous sources declaring them as genocide: Soviet Afghan War
(copied from Genocides in history (1946 to 1999) article) Numerous scholars and academics have stated that the Soviet military perpetrated a genocidal campaign of extermination against Afghan people during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.[1][2] Afghan president Mohammed Daoud Khan was deposed and murdered in 1978's Saur Revolution by the Khalqist faction of People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), who subsequently established their own government, the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan.[3]
What followed the April coup of 1978 was severe repression of a kind previously unknown in Afghanistan. American journalist and CNAS member Robert D. Kaplan argued that, while Afghanistan had been "poor" and "underdeveloped", it was a "relatively civilized" country that "had never known very much political repression" until 1978.[4] Political scientist Barnett Rubin wrote, "Khalq used mass arrests, torture, and secret executions on a scale Afghanistan had not seen since the time of Abdul Rahman Khan, and probably not even then".[5] After gaining power, the Khalqists unleashed a campaign of "red terror", killing more than 27,000 people in the Pul-e-Charkhi prison, prior to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979.[4]
After Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, deposing and killing Hafizullah Amin in Operation Storm-333 and installing Babrak Karmal as General Secretary, the brutality of communists intensified. The army of the Soviet Union killed large numbers of Afghans, attempting to suppress resistance from the Afghan mujahideen.[6] Numerous mass murders were perpetrated by the Soviet Army during the summer of 1980. Soviet forces also launched chemical attacks against civilian populations.[7] During the 1980s, the communist PDPA regime also killed and tortured thousands of individuals in the Pul-e-Charkhi prison.[8]
One notorious atrocity was the Laghman massacre in April 1985 in the villages of Kas-Aziz-Khan, Charbagh, Bala Bagh, Sabzabad, Mamdrawer, Haider Khan and Pul-i-Joghi[9] in the Laghman Province. At least 500 civilians were killed.[10] In the Kulchabat, Bala Karz and Mushkizi massacre which was committed on 12 October 1983, the Red Army gathered 360 people at the village square and shot them, including 20 girls and over a dozen older people.[11][12][13] The Rauzdi massacre and Padkhwab-e Shana massacre were also documented.[14] Approximately 2 million Afghan civilians were killed by the Soviet military and its proxies during the Soviet invasion and occupation.[15]
Soviet Air Forces perpetrated scorched-earth strategy during its bombing campaigns, which consisted of carpet bombing of cities and indiscriminate attacks that destroyed entire villages. Millions of land-mines (often camouflaged as kids' playthings) were planted by Soviet military across Afghanistan. Around 90% of Kandahar's inhabitants were forcibly expelled, as a result of Soviet atrocities during the war.[16] Everything was the target in the country, from cities, villages, up to schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, factories and orchards. Soviet tactics included targeting areas which showed support for the Afghan resistance, and forcing the populace to flee the rural regions where the communists had no territorial control. Half of Afghanistan's 24,000 villages and most of the rural facilities were destroyed by the end of the war.[17][18] During the Soviet invasion and occupation between 1979 and 1992, more than 20% of the Afghan population were focibly displaced as refugees.[18][19]
Historians, academics and scholars have widely described the Soviet military campaign in Afghanistan as a genocide. These include American professor Samuel Totten,[20] Australian professor Paul R. Bartrop,[20] political scientist Anthony James Joyce,[21] scholars from Yale Law School including W. Michael Reisman and Charles Norchi,[22] writer and journalist Rosanne Klass,[23] Canadian professor Adam Jones[24] and historian Mohammed Kakar.[25] American anthropologist Louis Dupree stated that Afghans were victims of "migratory genocide" implemented by Soviet military.[16]
Sources for Hazara genocide (19th century) Zamani, Ezzatullah (September 2019). "The 'Genocide of the Hazaras' in Afghanistan from 1884 to 1905 and subsequent genocidal campaigns and target killings against them in the 21st century"
Hakimi, Mehdi J. (25 July 2023). "The Afghan State and the Hazara Genocide". Harvard Human Rights Journal. 37.
Ibrahimi, Niamatullah (1 October 2017). The Hazaras and the Afghan State: Rebellion, Exclusion and the Struggle for Recognition. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-1-84904-981-8.
https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Committee/441/FAAE/Reports/RP13256076/faaerp27/faaerp27-e.pdf
https://civilrights.org/blog/the-hazara-genocide-and-systemic-discrimination-in-afghanistan/ Vanisherman (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- ^ Kakar 1997 :[page needed] "The Afghans are among the latest victims of genocide by a superpower."
- ^ Reisman, W. Michael; Norchi, Charles H. "Genocide and the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on 26 October 2016. Retrieved 7 January 2017.
According to widely reported accounts, substantial programmes of depopulation have been conducted in these Afghan provinces: Ghazni, Nagarhar, Lagham, Qandahar, Zabul, Badakhshan, Lowgar, Paktia, Paktika and Kunar...There is considerable evidence that genocide has been committed against the Afghan people by the combined forces of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan and the Soviet Union.
- ^ Rubin, Barnett R. (2002). The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System (2nd ed.). New Haven (CT): Yale University Press. pp. 104–105. ISBN 978-0-300-09519-7.
- ^ a b D. Kaplan, Robert (2001). Soldiers of God: With Islamic Warriors in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Vintage Books. p. 115. ISBN 1-4000-3025-0.
- ^ Rubin, Barnett R. (2002). The Fragmentation of Afghanistan: State Formation and Collapse in the International System (2nd ed.). New Haven (CT): Yale University Press. p. 115. ISBN 978-0-300-09519-7.
- ^ Kakar 1997 :[page needed] "The Afghans are among the latest victims of genocide by a superpower. Large numbers of Afghans were killed to suppress resistance to the army of the Soviet Union, which wished to vindicate its client regime and realize its goal in Afghanistan."
- ^ Kakar 1997 :[page needed] "Incidents of the mass killing of noncombatant civilians were observed in the summer of 1980...the Soviets felt it necessary to suppress defenseless civilians by killing them indiscriminately, by compelling them to flee abroad, and by destroying their crops and means of irrigation, the basis of their livelihood. The dropping of booby traps from the air, the planting of mines, and the use of chemical substances, though not on a wide scale, were also meant to serve the same purpose...they undertook military operations in an effort to ensure speedy submission: hence the wide use of aerial weapons, in particular helicopter gunships or the kind of inaccurate weapons that cannot discriminate between combatants and noncombatants."
- ^ Sarwary, Bilal (27 February 2006). "Kabul's prison of death". BBC News. Archived from the original on 27 February 2024.
- ^ "Diplomats report massacre in Afghanistan". United Press International. 14 May 1985. Archived from the original on 3 October 2022. Retrieved 24 August 2020.
- ^ Bellamy, Alex J. (2012). Massacres and Morality: Mass Atrocities in an Age of Civilian Immunity. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 281. ISBN 9780199288427.
- ^ Bernstein, Richard (1 March 1985). "U.N. Rights Study Finds Afghan Abuses by Soviets". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 11 September 2020. Retrieved 17 April 2021.
- ^ "UN report attacks Afghan massacres". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney, New South Wales. 4 March 1985. p. 7. Retrieved 17 April 2021.
- ^ Ermacora, Felix (1985). "Report on the situation of human rights in Afghanistan / prepared by the Special Rapporteur, Felix Ermacora, in accordance with Commission on Human Rights resolution 1984/55". United Nations Commission on Human Rights. Geneva: 31. Retrieved 17 April 2021.
- ^ "Tears, Blood and Cries. Human Rights in Afghanistan Since the Invasion 1979–1984" (PDF). Human Rights Watch. 1984. pp. 37–38. Archived from the original (PDF) on 16 November 2023. Retrieved 6 July 2021.
- ^ Klass, Rosanne (1994). The Widening Circle of Genocide. Transaction Publishers. p. 129. ISBN 9781412839655.
During the intervening fourteen years of Communist rule, an estimated 1.5 to 2 million Afghan civilians were killed by Soviet forces and their proxies- the four Communist regimes in Kabul, and the East Germans, Bulgarians, Czechs, Cubans, Palestinians, Indians and others who assisted them. These were not battle casualties or the unavoidable civilian victims of warfare. Soviet and local Communist forces seldom attacked the scattered guerrilla bands of the Afghan Resistance except, in a few strategic locales like the Panjsher valley. Instead they deliberately targeted the civilian population, primarily in the rural areas.
- ^ a b Borshchevskaya, Anna (2022). "2: The Soviet Union in the Middle East and the Afghanistan Intervention". Putin's War in Syria. London, UK: I. B. Tauris. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-7556-3463-7.
- ^ Goodson, Larry P. (2011). Afghanistan's Endless War: State Failure, Regional Politics, and the Rise of the Taliban. University of Washington Press. pp. 94, 95. ISBN 978-0-295-80158-2. OCLC 1026403863.
- ^ a b Blood-Stained Hands: Past Atrocities in Kabul and Afghanistan's Legacy of Impunity (Report). Human Rights Watch. 6 July 2005. Archived from the original on 24 February 2024. Retrieved 11 April 2020.
- ^ "Refugees From Afghanistan: The world's largest single refugee group" (PDF). www.refworld.org. 16 November 1999. Archived (PDF) from the original on 11 November 2020. Retrieved 11 December 2021.
- ^ a b Bartrop, Paul R.; Totten, Samuel (2007). Dictionary of Genocide: A-L. ABC-CLIO. pp. 3, 4. ISBN 978-0-313-34642-2. OCLC 437198304.
- ^ James Joes, Anthony (2010). "4: Afghanistan: End of the Red Empire". Victorious Insurgencies: Four Rebellions that Shaped Our World. University Press of Kentucky. pp. 211, 213. ISBN 978-0-8131-2614-2.
- ^ Reisman, W. Michael; Norchi, Charles. "Genocide and the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan" (PDF). pp. 4–6. Archived from the original (PDF) on 26 October 2016. Retrieved 7 January 2017.
- ^ Klass, Rosanne (2018). https://books.google.com/books?id=I2chrSJCW54C&pg=PA129. In Charny, Israel W. (ed.). The Widening Circle of Genocide: Genocide – A Critical Bibliographic Review. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-29406-5. OCLC 1032709528.
{{cite book}}
:|chapter-url=
missing title (help); Unknown parameter|chaGenocides in history (1946 to 1999)Genocides in history (1946 to 1999)pter=
ignored (help) - ^ Jones, Adam (2011). "2: State and Empire; War and Revolution". Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction (2nd ed.). New York, NY: Routledge. pp. 77–79. ISBN 978-0-415-48618-7.
- ^ Kakar 1997, p. 215.
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