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== manumission ==


__TOC__{{clear}}
the opinions of Gordon are appreciated, but can we a) cut down the massive quoting (such extensive quoting without substantial explanatory text may constitute a copyvio) and represent his main points in a few sentences of prose; b) make clear that it is Gordon's opinion (which is not quite what the text currently does, "Gordon notes... " assumes the factuality of his conclusions) especially as this is more interpretive than descriptive. [[User:Itaqallah|<small><b><font color="#029DDD">ITAQALLAH</font></b></small>]] 13:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


== Revised paragraph on abolition in introductory section ==
== "[[Islamist]]" opinion? ==
I have revised the paragraph on abolition in the page's first section because it was deeply misleading. It claimed that the bulk of abolition in the Muslim world happened after World War 1, and gave the impression that much of it happened in the 1960s and 70s. But this is simply untrue, and the countries the passage cited (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman and Mauritania) were marginal and unrepresentative. The largest Muslim countries, which were also the dominant ones politically and culturally, mostly abolished slavery before WW1, with a few following suit in the 1920s. I have revised the passage accordingly, adding references to the key secondary works on abolition in the Muslim world. (NB: Saudi Arabia may seem like an important Muslim country today, but that's a recent development produced by its oil wealth, before the late 20th century it was not significant either in population size or in political and cultural influence).


I have also re-worded the final sentence, which gave the impression that slavery is still officially condoned in the African countries listed. This is misleading - slavery is illegal in all of those countries, and the people who persist in keeping slaves are breaking the law. The logic of the former wording is never applied to western countries: there are documented examples of slavery in contemporary Britain, but nobody claims that this somehow shows that Britain hasn't really abolished slavery. It is illegal activity.
What's with the heading '[[Islamist]]' opinion? Have we used the word Islamist correctly? Ie, look at [[Islamism]]. Furthermore, is there a particular reason the article mentions Islamist opinion? And are each of the people mentioned there actually Islamists? Or are some of them 'just' [[Muslims]]? Should there not be an explanatory sentence or two introducing the section and giving cohesion, or is it just another lawyer's list? Maybe it's OK, but I think it should be at least questioned. --[[User:Merbabu|Merbabu]] 14:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


Lastly, I have corrected the first sentence of the paragraph, which was incorrect and did not reflect the cited source. North Africa was not a *source* of slaves for the Muslim slave trade, it was a destination. In addition, "west Asia" is misleading, because the areas from which slaves were taken extended well into what is normally considered eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia, etc).<!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jb212|Jb212]] ([[User talk:Jb212#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jb212|contribs]]) </span>
== "legal disabilities and dispensations" trimming and overhaul ==


== Removal of textual error in sixth paragraph of section one ==
i found that Levy had not really been represented appropriately, and that the current bullet-point format wasn't very encyclopedic or neutral, so i decided to do a rewrite. there's some material which i did not include, namely the material about marriage/concubinage (as we already have a section where this material can be inserted if it's not already there). i also removed the information about killing in talio, for free men are also killed in talio also for killing other free men. the only issue is when a free man kills a slave, when talio is not required (except in murder, according to Hanafis). furthermore, this: "slaves may lawfully be killed in vengeance (talio) if their master or their master's kinfolk kill the slave of another person" is not substantiated by the source i believe. [[User:Itaqallah|<small><b><font color="#029DDD">ITAQALLAH</font></b></small>]] 16:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
:"Under Islamic law, a slave possesses..." Is this the case in the present day, or was it only the case in the past? [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 17:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
::the Encyclopedia of Islam and Levy write in the present tense. i would assume it's because the relative legal rulings and jurisprudence concerning slaves remains unchanged. [[User:Itaqallah|<small><b><font color="#029DDD">ITAQALLAH</font></b></small>]] 17:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
:I think we are going to need to summarize the current legal rulings and jurisprudence on slavery, or else acknowledge that Islam does not in fact prohibit slavery today. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 17:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
::It's portayed as divinely ordained in the Quran as multiple scholars are cited as noting in the article. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 00:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


Replace improper apostrophe with a space in the following section: "With abolition of [[History of slavery in the Muslim world|slavery in the Muslim world]], the practice of slavery'largly came to an end". Text is found in the sixth paragraph of the first section, utilizing citation 27 [[User:Fishflame300|Fishflame300]] ([[User talk:Fishflame300|talk]]) 22:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
==This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards==


== Title ==
There is nothing here on the talk page to indicate why the tag was posted; therefore, deletion of tag will commence. --[[User:ProtectWomen|ProtectWomen]] 18:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


"Slavery in Islam" may be more conveniet fot title than "Islamic views on slavery" on this page.[[User:NGC 628|NGC 628]] ([[User talk:NGC 628|talk]]) 08:00, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
==Ibrahim and hajar==
This section, authored by me has been excised by Merbabu. It was linked to other sections of Wikipedia on [[Abraham]] and [[Hagar]] as its sources. He can't see the relevance of it, and so he acts to suppress information about how one of '''the''' most important Islamic prophets ... treats his slave by abandoning her and their son in the desert. Of course, the conduct of Islamic 'prophets' acts as an example for muslims and of Islam - in respect to treatment of slaves, in this instance.<br /><br />


== Repeated paragraph ==
But anyway, it's been typically and predictably cut out before most editors got a chance to consider it so I'll relate it below.<br /><br />


This section is almost entirely the same as in opening paragraph but with different sources.
On another note with regard to my personal life, a certain 'train' I've been expecting in recent weeks and waiting for has arrived. So, I expect to be retiring from Wiki-editing very soon.


[Excerpt begin]<blockquote>==Ibraham and Hajar==
{{main|Hagar_%28Bible%29#Hagar_in_Islamic_traditions}}
{{seealso|Islamic view of Abraham}}
[[Image:GustaveDore.jpg|thumb|left|The Islamic prophet Ibrahim abandons his slave[[Hagar (Bible)|Hagar]] and their child Ismail]]Abraham (''Ibrahim'', under Islam) is acknowledged as an Islamic [[prophet]]. It is asserted that the Arabs are the progeny of him with his Ethiopian slave, [[Hagar]]. Hagar was given to him while he already had Sarah as a wife. By Abraham, Hajar gave birth to Ishmael (Arabic:Ismā'īl) which pleased him. Sarah thereafter regretted Abraham taking Hagar as a wife, so she prevailed upon him to send Hajar and Ishmael away.


The [[Hadith|hadiths]], which differ between [[Shia Islam|Shia]] and [[Sunni Islam|Sunni]], address slavery extensively, assuming its existence as part of society but viewing it as an exceptional condition and restricting its scope. The hadiths forbade enslavement of ''[[dhimmis]]'', the non-Muslims of Islamic society, and Muslims. They also regarded slaves as legal only when they were non-Muslims who were imprisoned, bought beyond the borders of Islamic rule, or the sons and daughters of slaves already in captivity. [[User:Robynteague|Robynteague]] ([[User talk:Robynteague|talk]]) 04:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Ibrahim brought Hajar to the hill called al-Marwa, left a bag of dates and some water nearby, and abandoned her. Hajar ran after him and said: "Are you going to leave us in this desert where there is no one to keep us company?" She repeated this many times but he would not look back at her.

Hagar, with Ishmael as a suckling, was left alone in bare desert far from human contact. She lived on the provisions until hunger and thirst overcame her. Her milk dried up, leaving Ishmael also hungry and thirsty.

Hoping to find water, she searched the desert but found nothing. She found Ishmael crying which made her weep also. She ran seven times back and forth in scorching heat between the hills of Safa and Marwa, in hope of seeing some water from high ground. Disappointed and tearful, she returned to Ishmael. Her search is superstitiously imitated by muslims in the act of ritual walking (sa`i, Arabic: سَعِي) between the same hills at Mecca as part of the performance of [[Haj|Islamic pilgrimage]].

The legend concludes that Hajar and Ishmael were saved by Gabriel providing a source of water for her and Ishmael.</blockquote> {{unsigned|DavidYork71|00:05, 28 March 2007}}


: David, Abraham did it at God's command, not on his own. This image is misleading as Abraham was actually hesitant to do so. I don't think any Muslim has ever recieved a similar order from God so your evluation that "Of course, the conduct of Islamic 'prophets' acts as an example for muslims and of Islam - in respect to treatment of slaves, in this instance." is irrelevant. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 00:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
: BTW, I don't think the story of Abraham is relevant to this article. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 00:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::I like the picture. The background story could possibly be condensed to "Abraham obeys God's order to abandon his concubine Hagar" or something like that. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 01:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::: This story doesn't have anything to do with ''this'' article. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 01:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Simply put, the story and picture show an aspect of what it means to be a slave and the child of a slave in the context of Islam. Any muslim has that sunnah to inform his/her own conduct in relation to those enslaved. It's apt for the article.[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 01:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::::: I don't understand what you mean.... that "picture show an aspect of what it means to be a slave and the child of a slave in the context of Islam" what aspect? in the context of islam? --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 01:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::: A slave of any pre-Islamic Middle Eastern figure is relevant to this section, let alone one claimed as a predecessor by Muhammad. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 02:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I agree with both [[User:Sefringle]] who originally removed it and [[User:Aminz]] here. The image is out of place in an article about ''Islam'' and slavery. Just because Muhammad "claimed" Ibrahim doesn't make it true. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 02:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::::This story is the reason why muslims run between the two hills in the desert heat seven times on pilgrimage. It's part of Islam. Everything Muhammad claimed is part of it.[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 10:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::"''Simply put, the story and picture show an aspect of what it means to be a slave and the child of a slave in the context of Islam. Any muslim has that sunnah to inform his/her own conduct in relation to those enslaved.''" - completely absurd argument, and false. [[User:Itaqallah|<small><b><font color="#029DDD">ITAQALLAH</font></b></small>]] 15:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

== Copyright permission for any pictures from www.frontline.org.za ==
The follow email message may be cited as permission for any of the pics from that site. I have previously uploaded some and used them in the article.<blockquote>
From : Frontline Fellowship <info@frontline.org.za>
Sent : Tuesday, 27 March 2007 1:57:26 PM
To : <Dy90@hotmail.com>
Subject : LETTER to DAVID YORK from DR PETER HAMMOND
Attention: David York

Dear Mr. York

Thank you for your letter 18/3 via Christian Action. You are most welcome to reproduce the pictures on Islam and slavery from our website. They are a public domain. They were sketched by contemporaries in the 19th Century. I obtained these pictures from a variety of old books from second hand bookshops.

If we can be of any further assistance, please do let us know.

Yours for faith and freedom

Dr. Peter Hammond</blockquote>

: "I obtained these pictures from a variety of old books from second hand bookshops." that doesn't prove that the pictures are geniune. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 01:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
: And who is Peter Hammond? "[[Peter J. Hammond]]"; professor of economics at stanford university; or someone else? --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 01:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::No, he is the representative of frontline.org.za [[Stanford]] is not in [[Zaire]].[[User:149.135.32.222|149.135.32.222]] 04:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

==Imami Source of Jurisprudence==

The statement "In Imami Shiite jurisrudence, the master of a female slave may grant a third party the use of her for sexual relations.<ref name="eois"/>"
must be verified by an imami source of jurisprudence.
:It is in the EoI article. You have no valid reason to remove this. As such, this is vandalism. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 06:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::It doesn't have to be a "imami source of jurisprudence". As long as it is a reliable source, which I believe EOI is, it is fine by Wiki policy. [[User:Nayan Nev|NN]] 07:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::: Arrow, can you please point me to the quote. I searched the article for "Imami", etc etc and couldn't find the quote. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 08:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::::: Section L. It's the 10th page of my printout. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
::::It has the same status as other statements from EoI. Leave it and then bring forward the Imami rulings that confirm or explain it later as added refs.[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 10:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

==Shia Jurisprudence==

In Shia jurisrudence, the master of a female slave may grant a third party the use of her for sexual relations.<ref name="eois"/>, [[Arrow740]], EoI is not a sufficient source for SHIA Jurisprudence. For eg. If someone were to claim a ruling in Christian Canon Law, they would have to refer to the Canon law source. It would not be sufficient to refer to any other source besides the Canon books. It is only logical. If you can obtain a source that quotes a ruling from a Shiite Islamic Jurist, then that would be sufficient. EoI has been called into question regarding certain aspects that it has claimed to be of Shiite interpretation. EoI is by no means a monolithic piece of literature on the entirety of Islam in ACCURATE DETAIL. [[User:Al-Zaidi|Al-Zaidi]]
:Presumably, Mr.Brunschvig has done that work for us. Do you have any reason to disagree?[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 04:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
:: I have posted something on Tom Harrison's page about this. Brunschvig quotes the classic scholar Al-Hilli. Unlike Sunni jurists who belonged to early days of Islam, Shia jurists are present up to now. I don't think they address such details about slavery anymore(at least it is not present in the specific popular books they publish). If they do, they can have their own opinion (e.g. some of them consider women's inheritence the same as that of man because of the new social order of the community; some others consider apostasy not to be punishable by death unless it is apostasy+treason etc etc). But after all, they all belong to the same tradition as Al-Hilli belonged. One example where many of today's jurists distance from Al-Hilli is on the ritual cleanness of people of the book. Anyways. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 05:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

==Article GA-nommed==
Today, by me. [[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 02:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
:Should pass. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 02:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
:: DY71, I disagree with nomination of this article. There are clearly active disputes here. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 07:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
::: Looking at this article now, I'd say it is LONG, comprehensive and well-cited, and lacking pics in some sections.[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 02:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

==Comparisons==
This article does not mention the issue of slavery in other parts of the world and other religions. Wouldn't such a provision of context be informative? Articles don't have to stand alone in isolation. [[User:Merbabu|Merbabu]] 04:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:We have pre-Islamic slavery. That provides the relevant context. [[User:Arrow740|Arrow740]] 05:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
::Look how long it is already. Do not extend the scope beyond the purview of the title.[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 05:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

==GA-reviewer needed==
In a few places I have advertised for a GAreviewer as follows:<blockquote>The abovenoted article, to which I have contributed, I have nommed for GA. It needs a GA reviewer who is not in the business of glorifying Islam, bashing Islam or sugarcoating/minimising/denying the facts and circumstances of slavery. Most important is that the rights or dignities allowed to slaves by Islam have a proper exposure.

My view of the I&S article is that it is informative, wellreferenced, wellresearched, comprehensive wellillustrated and LONG. On the subject of neutrality or stability, I would just ask that the article itself and not the disputatiousness of the talk page be kept in focus as the subject of review.

Now that I have your interest do I have a volunteer??[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 08:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)</blockquote>[[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] 08:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
: It is a bit on the long side (ref [[WP:LENGTH]]), is not written in encyclopaedic prose style, overly relies on direct quotes from a particular source (Gordon) and uses images with unclear copyright status. Until these matters are cleared up, the article is unlikely to pass a competent GA process. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 08:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

==Slavery in the Hadith==
I have included some material on what Muhammad said on the matter of slavery according to Hadiths. David York keeps deleting that material. Should what Muhammad said about slavery not be included? The Hadith are Islam's second most important scripture, after the Koran. If the style of writing needs to be changed, let me know. The content itself is very relevant to the article, and is actually absolutely necessary. [[User:Coldbud|Coldbud]] 16:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:The Hadiths are primary sources. We can include those to illustrate and support secondary sources, but if we rely on them by themselves it is hard to avoid doing original research. It would be better to cite the opinions of scholars who have said which hadiths are relevent and what they mean. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 17:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:: The preceding section is Slavery in the Quran where many examples are taken directly from the Quran itself. Shouldnt David York have deleted that as well then? [[User:Coldbud|Coldbud]] 22:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:It seems to be cited to Lewis, EoI, and EoQ, with the actual quotes from the Qur'an cited in support. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 23:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

==Prophet Ibramim and his slave Hajar==
[[Image:GustaveDore.jpg|thumb|left|A depiction of the Islamic prophet Ibrahim repudiating his slave [[Hagar (Bible)|Hajar]] and their child [[Ishmael|Ismail]] in ancient pre-Islamic Arabia. Hajar's search for water to aid herself and Ismail is imitated by muslims in the act of ritual walking seven times between [[Al-Safa and Al-Marwah|the hills of Safa and Marwa]]<ref>http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/fus5_77.html Fiqh-us-Sunnah, Volume 5: Sa'i between Safa and Marwah - Volume 5, Page 85a: Historical Background</ref> at [[Mecca]] as part of the performance of [[Haj|Islamic pilgrimage]].{{seealso|Hajar#Hagar in Islamic traditions}}]]

I found this picture and caption in the edit history. I placed it in the pre-islamic slavery section ... seemed most appropriate, useful content for the article, and something which relates to a custom still(currently) observed in Islamic pilgrimage. I can see how it relates to Islam, slavery and preislamic Arabia. What views are there about putting it anywhere else in the article?

==Another image==
[[Image:Maome.jpg|thumb|220px|left|Among other pronouncements about slaves, Muhammad (pictured preaching in a 15th century illustration) is reported to have said:""Allah has forbidden the Paradise to three people: the alcoholic, the runaway slave, and the one who is complacent in the face of the evil deeds that his family is performing" (Sahih al-Jami # 3047)."<ref>Sahih al-Jami # 3047</ref>]][[Image:Maome.jpg|thumb|220px|left|Among other pronouncements about slaves, Muhammad (pictured preaching in a 15th century illustration) is reported to have said:"If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void."<ref>Abu Dawud, vol. 2, chapter 683,#2074 </ref>]]
I found these in the edit history. Both seem to reveal important statement by Muhammad concerning runaway slaves and the (marriage) rights of slaves. Please discuss best placement. Under 'hadith' for the one about 'runaway slave' I suggest.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/149.135.34.252|149.135.34.252]]

Latest revision as of 15:29, 24 December 2024

Former good article nomineeIslamic views on slavery was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 20, 2005Articles for deletionKept
April 2, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee


Revised paragraph on abolition in introductory section

[edit]

I have revised the paragraph on abolition in the page's first section because it was deeply misleading. It claimed that the bulk of abolition in the Muslim world happened after World War 1, and gave the impression that much of it happened in the 1960s and 70s. But this is simply untrue, and the countries the passage cited (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman and Mauritania) were marginal and unrepresentative. The largest Muslim countries, which were also the dominant ones politically and culturally, mostly abolished slavery before WW1, with a few following suit in the 1920s. I have revised the passage accordingly, adding references to the key secondary works on abolition in the Muslim world. (NB: Saudi Arabia may seem like an important Muslim country today, but that's a recent development produced by its oil wealth, before the late 20th century it was not significant either in population size or in political and cultural influence).

I have also re-worded the final sentence, which gave the impression that slavery is still officially condoned in the African countries listed. This is misleading - slavery is illegal in all of those countries, and the people who persist in keeping slaves are breaking the law. The logic of the former wording is never applied to western countries: there are documented examples of slavery in contemporary Britain, but nobody claims that this somehow shows that Britain hasn't really abolished slavery. It is illegal activity.

Lastly, I have corrected the first sentence of the paragraph, which was incorrect and did not reflect the cited source. North Africa was not a *source* of slaves for the Muslim slave trade, it was a destination. In addition, "west Asia" is misleading, because the areas from which slaves were taken extended well into what is normally considered eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia, etc).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jb212 (talkcontribs)

Removal of textual error in sixth paragraph of section one

[edit]

Replace improper apostrophe with a space in the following section: "With abolition of slavery in the Muslim world, the practice of slavery'largly came to an end". Text is found in the sixth paragraph of the first section, utilizing citation 27 Fishflame300 (talk) 22:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Title

[edit]

"Slavery in Islam" may be more conveniet fot title than "Islamic views on slavery" on this page.NGC 628 (talk) 08:00, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Repeated paragraph

[edit]

This section is almost entirely the same as in opening paragraph but with different sources.


The hadiths, which differ between Shia and Sunni, address slavery extensively, assuming its existence as part of society but viewing it as an exceptional condition and restricting its scope. The hadiths forbade enslavement of dhimmis, the non-Muslims of Islamic society, and Muslims. They also regarded slaves as legal only when they were non-Muslims who were imprisoned, bought beyond the borders of Islamic rule, or the sons and daughters of slaves already in captivity. Robynteague (talk) 04:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]