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Requested move 13 November 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Scolding Letters be renamed and moved to Skällebreven.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Scolding Letters → Skällebreven – The current title appears to have no support in the article (all cited sources are in Swedish). I can not find any support in Google scholar either [1] (The one hit refers to a letter from John III, Count of Nassau-Siegen). Thus, I believe we can't determine any established English useage and according to WP:UE should instead follow local. Andejons (talk) 22:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Raladic (talk) 23:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. That's not how WP:UE works. If all the sources are in Swedish, and there is no established English usage, we translate it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162 etc. (talk • contribs) 01:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UE only says to translate if it's possible "without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader". I don't think the criteria are fulfilled here. The kind of descriptive titel Jähmefyysikko suggests would be a better alternative than the current attempt at creating a new term. Andejons (talk) 10:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quite the contrary. "Skällebreven" is incomprehensible to the English-speaking reader. The current title provides "greater understanding". 162 etc. (talk) 15:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Scolding Letters" is not comprehensible either. A minor issue is that it's an indefinite noun were the original is definite, making it sound like it's a type of letter, not a specific set of letters. The larger issue is that it's unrecognisable since no one seems to have used it before, and it's not descriptive enough for someone who knows about the letters to guess that it's what the article is about. Andejons (talk) 07:27, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to a better translation, or User:Jähmefyysikko's suggestion below. 162 etc. (talk) 16:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The title could also be Correspondence between John III and Ivan IV, if we want to avoid inventing a historiographical term. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This Google Books search returns several English sources that discuss these letters: [2]. Additional sources can be found by varying the search terms: [3][4][5]. From what I can tell, none of these sources assign a specific name to them. In particular, no source translates the original Swedish term. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This makes sense to me as the title. We can also create Skällebreven as a redirect. //Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 10:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Russia, WikiProject Sweden, WikiProject International relations, and WikiProject Military history have been notified of this discussion. Raladic (talk) 23:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. In ruwiki the article on the subject is "ru:Послания Ивана Грозного Юхану III (Letters from Ivan the Terrible to Johan III), i.e., there is no special Russain term for these. Therefore I am in favor of the descriptive title, Correspondence between John III and Ivan IV, found in books. --Altenmann >talk 23:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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-{{WikiProject Military history|Nordic=yes|Russian=yes|Early-Modern=yes|Baltic=yes|Polish=yes}}
+{{WikiProject Military history|Nordic=yes|Russian=yes|Early-Modern=yes|Baltic=yes|Polish=yes|b1=yes|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes}}
+|class=B}}
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+== Requested move 13 November 2024 ==
+{{requested move/dated|Skällebreven}}
+[[:Scolding Letters]] → {{no redirect|Skällebreven}} – The current title appears to have no support in the article (all cited sources are in Swedish). I can not find any support in Google scholar either [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=sv&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22scolding+letters%22+%22john+III%22&btnG=] (The one hit refers to a letter from [[John III, Count of Nassau-Siegen]]). Thus, I believe we can't determine any established English useage and according to [[WP:UE]] should instead follow local. [[User:Andejons|Andejons]] ([[User talk:Andejons|talk]]) 22:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC) <small>—&nbsp;'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;[[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 23:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
+*'''Oppose'''.  That's not how [[WP:UE]] works.  If all the sources are in Swedish, and there is no established English usage, we ''translate it''. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/162 etc.|contribs]]) 01:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
+:WP:UE only says to translate if it's possible "without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader". I don't think the criteria are fulfilled here. The kind of descriptive titel Jähmefyysikko suggests would be a better alternative than the current attempt at creating a new term. [[User:Andejons|Andejons]] ([[User talk:Andejons|talk]]) 10:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
+::Quite the contrary. "Skällebreven" is incomprehensible to the English-speaking reader.  The current title provides ''"greater understanding"''. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 15:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
+:::"Scolding Letters" is not comprehensible either. A minor issue is that it's an indefinite noun were the original is definite, making it sound like it's a ''type'' of letter, not a specific ''set'' of letters. The larger issue is that it's unrecognisable since no one seems to have used it before, and it's not descriptive enough for someone who knows about the letters to guess that it's what the article is about. [[User:Andejons|Andejons]] ([[User talk:Andejons|talk]]) 07:27, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
+::::No objection to a better translation, or [[User:Jähmefyysikko]]'s suggestion below. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 16:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
+*'''Comment'''. The title could also be [[Correspondence between John III and Ivan IV]], if we want to avoid inventing a historiographical term. [[User:Jähmefyysikko|Jähmefyysikko]] ([[User talk:Jähmefyysikko|talk]]) 05:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
+*:This Google Books search returns several English sources that discuss these letters: [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22johan+III%22+%22ivan+IV%22+correspondence]. Additional sources can be found by varying the search terms: [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22johan+III%22+%22ivan+IV%22+letters][https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22john+III%22+%22ivan+IV%22+letters][https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22john+III%22+%22ivan+IV%22+correspondence]. From what I can tell, none of these sources assign a specific name to them. In particular, no source translates the original Swedish term. [[User:Jähmefyysikko|Jähmefyysikko]] ([[User talk:Jähmefyysikko|talk]]) 16:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
+*::This makes sense to me as the title. We can also create [[Skällebreven]] as a redirect. <span style="font-family:monospace;color:#006400 !important;font-weight:bold;">//[[User:Lollipoplollipoplollipop|Lollipoplollipoplollipop]]::[[User talk:Lollipoplollipoplollipop|talk]]</span> 10:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
+:<small>Note: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Russia|WikiProject Russia]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sweden|WikiProject Sweden]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject International relations|WikiProject International relations]], and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history|WikiProject Military history]] have been notified of this discussion. [[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 23:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
+*'''Comment'''. In ruwiki the article on the subject is "[[:ru:Послания Ивана Грозного Юхану III]] (Letters  from Ivan the Terrible to Johan III), i.e., there is no special Russain term for these. Therefore I am in favor of the descriptive title, [[Correspondence between John III and Ivan IV]], found in books.  --[[user:Altenmann|Altenmann]] [[user talk:Altenmann|>talk]] 23:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)