Talk:Murder of Zvi Kogan

Citizenship

If Zvi Kogan was born in Jerusalem to Lithuanian Jewish parents, how is he a Moldovan citizen and has a Russian version of the Cohen name?BorisG (talk) 02:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm almost certain that Lithuanian mean in the context a nickname for a Mitnaged but i don't remember the exact borders of the Grand Duchy (probably not important) and the Russian surname is almost certainly because Moldova was part of the Russian Empire Multiverse Union (talk) 06:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The Grand Duchy of Lithuania did indeed include parts of present day Moldova. Nothing mysterious at all here. --2603:7000:2101:AA00:880D:7A84:45F8:3515 (talk) 07:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 25 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Strong consensus for, and the WP:COMMONNAME. WP:BLPCRIME does not apply here, as it does not mention victims. (non-admin closure) Feeglgeef (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

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Death of Zvi Kogan → Murder of Zvi Kogan – 178.81.55.110 (talk) 03:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support Zvi Kogan was murdered because he was Jewish, he didn't die randomly. It's murder for all intents and purposes! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.151.62.16 (talk) 19:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  Support Codonified (talk) 12:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• Agree. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:880D:7A84:45F8:3515 (talk) 07:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support He was purposefully killed, or in simpler terms, murdered. Pyramids09 (talk) 08:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose It should be moved to Zvi Kogan. If he had several pages about him, then sure, (like the assassination attempts on Trump). But since the murder is a main part of his importance, and there is enough information for an article about him, he should just have his own article with a large section on his murder. TimeEngineer (talk) 08:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The title should not be Zvi Kogan if the main part of his notability is his death, per WP:BIO1E. If his killing is the primary source of his notability, the article title should be about the event, not the person. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

As BarrelProof states, the guy himself is not noteworthy, it's just his killing.

2001:16B8:C705:8F00:C8A:D5B6:CECF:8817 (talk) 00:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support, According to judicial rulings, the term “murder” refers to those who are intentionally killed due to a hostile attack, and it is very different from the word “death”, See Murder of Ross Parker
  178.81.55.110 (talk) 10:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: What distinguishes that article from this one is that the perpetrators were convicted of murder. Compare with Killing of Gabby Petito, where the suspect died before trial. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 18:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)]

  Question. Judicial rulings in the UAE? If not, perhaps we should consider the stance of the UAE. The UAE has identified this matter as a murder. See this NYT article. --184.153.21.19 (talk) 00:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Cameron Dewe, in the case of Murder of Seth Rich, there appear to be no convictions.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 00:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  VR - to your point, there are literally dozens of "Murder of ..." wp articles in which no murderer has been convicted, just a few of which are Murder of Zhang Hong Jie, Murder of Harvey and Jeannette Crewe, Murder of Mellory Manning, Murder of Frank Newbery, Murder of Nurin Jazlin, Murder of Alice Gross, Murder of Giulio Regeni, Murder of Sohagi Jahan Tonu, Murder of Udin, Murder of Sagar Sarowar and Meherun Runi, Murder of Yuriy Chervochkin, Murder of Betsy Aardsma, Murder of Blair Adams, Murder of Tammy Alexander, Murder of Nikole Bakoles, Murder of Barbara Barnes, Murder of George Harry Storrs, Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel, Murder of Trang Phuong Ho, Murder of Melissa Batten, Murder of Raymond Codling, Murder of Tony Golden, and the like. --184.153.21.19 (talk) 07:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Vice regent and others: I accept other articles exists that are titled "Murder of ....". However, in the original example provided the perpetrators were convicted of the murder of Ross Parker and I was providing a contrasting example where there was no conviction. Since people have been arrested in this case and are going to be put on trial, Wikipedia should follow due process and now wait until the judicial process reaches a conclusion, before labelling this crime a "murder", rather than jumping to the same conclusions as the partisan sources and prejudging the outcome of the trial. Otherwise this becomes "Trial by Wikipedia." Also, each article needs to be judged on its merits, so the use of the term "Murder" may be applicable in those other articles when it is not with this article. In two murders I am familiar with, the murder of Harvey and Jeannette Crewe and the murder of Mellory Manning, for example, people were convicted of murder, although those convictions were subsequently quashed on appeal, so a conviction was entered for murder. In this case, the trial hasn't even started and Wikipedia should assume the people on trial are innocent until found guilty. My opposition to calling this murder is that saying so is premature, process-wise, not that it is not one. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  Focusing on just one solitary -- but important - point. CD's reaction is based on the premise that the suspects accused of the murder are the murderers. Yet no such assertion is made in adopting the title of -- as dozens of similar WP articles have done -- "Murder of ..." This is not a "Murder by .." article. Obviously, the subject may be determined to have been murdered, as the UAE has done. While the murderers perhaps have not yet even been arrested, or if they have been arrested determined to have been those who committed the murder. --184.153.21.19 (talk) 19:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  The examples provided are almost exclusively of murders where either the suspects were never identified, murder-suicides where there are no BLP issues, and cases where all named suspects were acquitted or convictions that were later squashed and without new named suspects. Murder of Zhang Hong Jie needed to be updated to include the conviction. With the exception of Murder of Giulio Regeni (where I have made the necessary changes), none of these articles are similar to the case here where we have named suspects that are about to be subject to a criminal trial. Your list is not indicative that it would be acceptable to use "murder" here. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 09:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support, I support move to Zvi Kogan as well. Gharouni ^Talk 14:21, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose the proposed title at this time, as it is too soon for Wikipedia to be calling this crime a murder. Wikipedia's standard for an article titled "Murder of ...." is conviction of the perpetrators. Until the suspects, who have been arrested, are convicted, Wikipedia should maintain a neutral point of view with the title of this article and not speculate about what type of crime it is alleged to be based on the opinions of commentators who have no judicial standing in the country where this crime occurred. However, I do support a move to "Killing of ...." as this person's death was caused by a violent criminal act. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) - Cameron Dewe (talk) 17:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Well, "Murder of ...." may be your standard. But some editors might be excused if they were to quibble that it is perhaps just a bit of an exaggeration for you to call it "Wikipedia's standard." Because if one bothers to click through, it says rather clearly, atop the page: "This is an essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints." --184.153.21.19 (talk) 07:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  WP:BLPCRIME applies here, too. Arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction for murder. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  That's irrelevant. The UAE has stated that he was murdered. They have not stated who murdered him - and that is all that WP:BLPCRIME relates to. You are confusing the two. --184.153.21.19 (talk) 01:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. My preference is "Killing of", pending a conviction, but reliable sources (WP:COMMONNAME) do seem to prefer "Murder". 162 etc. (talk) 20:39, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Unfortunately his notability is due to his murder, and the title of the article should reflect that. DaringDonna (talk) 21:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
• Is this a snow at this point? 184.153.21.19 (talk) 21:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Move to Killing of Zvi Kogan per WP:KILLINGS – obviously a homicide, but no criminal convictions yet. As for WP:COMMONNAME, the sources cited in this article, and in general, differ on describing this event as a "killing" or a "murder". -insert valid name here- (talk) 21:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Isn't WP:KILLINGS just an essay that is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community? And the relevant government - the UAE, as well as the US and the NYT, BBC, Wall Street Journal, NBC, CNN, USA Today, Reuters, Newsweek, France 24, etc., and all manner of RSs, has stated that it was a murder .. which of course is a killing, but it is that subset of killings that is illegal. --184.153.21.19 (talk) 06:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME is policy. WP:KILLINGS is an essay that explains how to implement this policy. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Right .. but WP:KILLINGS itself then, as it states, has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. While one or more editors may like it, it is not an explanation that has been thoroughly vetted, and does not stand for more than the opinion of one or more editors .. short of the community. Second, as to BLPCRIME, it is not relevant, as the UAE has stated that Kogan was murdered, but have not stated who murdered him - and that is all that WP:BLPCRIME relates to.--184.153.21.19 (talk) 19:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support “Killing of…” per the flowchart at WP:KILLINGS. I’ll support “Murder of…” when there’s officially a formal conviction, which is likely not long from now. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

  Changing to support "murder of..." considering the news items linked by @Vice regent below. The Kip ^(contribs) 07:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support "Murder of", do not support "killing of". The relevant Emirati authorities have specifically described this as "murder"[1], without any use of the word "alleged". The authorities have named several individuals as "perpetrators" without any usage of the term "alleged"[2]. The "killing of" is used in cases where authorities still presume the perpetrators to be innocent, but it is superseded by "murder of" once the authorities are convinced of the crime. The Emirati authorities do appear to be convinced of the crime in this case. (Yes, the Emirati executive branch should not presume there is a crime unless without a judicial conviction, but this is not the place to WP:RGW). Finally, the real victim here Kogan, hence it is a bit of an NPOV violation to use euphemisms like "death" or "killing".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 00:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  The relevant Emirati authorities that would make this a murder are the courts, which have not convicted yet. Public pronouncements by non-judicial officials are not convictions and even in liberal democracies, politicians and police officials will often prematurely jump to deem mere accused as criminals. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs, but it is also not the place to prematurely label legally innocent people as murderers (see WP:BLPCRIME. "Killing" is an accurate description, and suggesting that it's a euphemism that rises to the level of an NPOV violation is arguably attempting to RGW yourself. You'll note that in the linked BBC article [3], "murder" or variants are only used in quotations or when describing official statements and never in the BBC's own words. That should be the standard for the article. It's okay to note what officials have said it's a murder, but we shouldn't do the same until there's a conviction. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 03:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Support title being "Killing of". I would buy the argument above if it was from a country with fewer government sponsored human rights abuses than the UAE. PARAKANYAA (talk) 08:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Support Murder of Zvi Kogan per WP:COMMONNAME. The idea that gets parried around by some users that you can only use the term "murder" when a conviction occurs seems to be one that has arisen on Wikipedia, I have never seen this elsewhere. I await the presumably oncoming crusade against the phrase "unsolved murder", which is obviously an impossibility for them despite its widespread usage on Wikipedia. I T B F 📢 14:53, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@ITBF Because it's an obvious BLP issue that we call someone a murderer when they haven't been convicted? Commonname trumps WP:DEATHS (though it's too soon after the event to see a true common name) but BLPCRIME is policy and trumps that as well. Common usage aside we do not want to be sued, and despite the layman usage of the term "murder" is a specific legal thing and not just someone being killed. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:05, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anyone here proposing to label any living person a murderer. "Murder" is not a term of art like "manslaughter", it has a common English meaning. Are you aware of the article sequence "List of unsolved murders", List of unsolved murders (2000–present) being the most relevant to your BLP concerns? The perpetrators are presumably all covered by WP:BLP, that does not mean these people only become murder victims when someone is convicted of the specific legal offence. I T B F 📢 02:04, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

If the title is "murder" then we implicate the persons referred to named or not. Murder does have a specific meaning, given that it can only be defined by the law. It varies by jurisdiction, which is an extra reason that we need to be cautious. And those would be BLP issues if the perpetrators were indicated or implied or accused, but as they are unsolved and no information is given in sourcing or otherwise, it is not a problem - though legally imprecise. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:26, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

You are confusing two things. It is one thing to say that a murder has been committed. That is what we have here. The UAE - the relevant jurisdiction - has concluded and states as much. It is quite another to say that person x committed the murder. But that has not been done in this article. Nor would using - as dozens of articles at wp have done - the article title "Murder of .." violate BLP. Why? Because it is not an assertion that any particular person committed the murder. That's why dozens of wp articles bear that title, without any murderer having been convicted. 184.153.21.19 (talk) 04:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Murder is very much a term of art that almost every single jurisdiction defines in its criminal codes (usually something like a premeditated unlawful killing). The article names three people as the alleged perpetrators who are currently in custody. Titling the article as a "murder' implies that they have already been convicted, which AFAIK isn't the case. As for unsolved murders, the BLP implications are considerably lessened, since they are by definition generally unlikely to have named suspects at all and especially not named suspects currently undergoing criminal proceedings. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 09:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

With respect, that analysis is wrong. Titling the article a murder is 100% supported by the country here. It has announced that it was a murder. That is entirely different from saying that the individuals committed or were convicted of the murder. As you yourself point out, they are only suspects. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. That they are only suspects - not convicted - is clear at the very mention of their names in the article. There is no BLP issue here at all. --24.193.163.158 (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not an Emirati lawyer, so can you tell me what is wrong with the analysis? Is murder not a legally-defined crime in the UAE? Do murders not go through the Emirati court system but are decided in whole or in part by non-judicial public officials? Has a conviction already been obtained? Unless some of those answers aren't "no", then it would be a WP:BLPCRIME violation to use "murder in the title, since from a strictly legal standpoint that determination has not been made yet and doing so implies otherwise.

There is no issue with using "murder" in the context of the charges, alleged actions, or various quotations. Indeed, that is what a lot of non-Israeli news sources are doing and using "killing" or "death" when speaking in objective terms (e.g. BBC [4][5], CNN [6], Reuters [7], AP [8], Times of India [9]). -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 07:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Support per COMMONNAME. —Biosketch (talk) 15:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose proposed for now, but support move to "Killing of...". Regardless of what Emirati officials are saying, it has a court system that must rule before we should be labelling it a murder per WP:BLPCRIME, which trumps the article titles policy. No issue with using "Killing of..." since Zvi Kogan was in fact killed. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 09:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support the article itself refers to the death as a murder, and there were signs of violence and struggle found in his car. Three civilians have already been arrested in connection with the murder so I think it's fair enough to move the article over. jolielover♥talk 09:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.