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{{archive box|[[/Archive 1|July 2003-December 2005]]<br>[[/Archive 2|February 2006-October 2006]]}}
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==Cindy Sousa?==
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Why is this in the article?
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"The most beautiful of all red head's is by far, Cindy Sousa."
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[[User:149.167.210.127|149.167.210.127]] 05:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
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== Spanish figures: Add them please ==
The spanish figure is 2-3% redhaired people according to data. I leave the link here https://www.elmundo.es/magazine/2003/183/1048874109.html#:~:text=Si%20s%C3%B3lo%20el%207%25%20de,tanto%20dorado%20por%20nuestras%20ciudades? (Si sólo el 7% de los españoles es rubio natural (el 57% es castaño, el 26% moreno, el 3% pelirrojo y el 10% restante moreno y castaño claros)


== Edit Suggestion - Genetics ==
How about because it was vandalism? I see this quite a bit on other articles.
Under section 2.1 Genetics I propose the following addition:


A haplotype has been identified on the ASIP locus on chromosome 20 that is associated with red hair.<ref>{{cite journal|last1=Sturm|first1=Richard|title=Molecular genetics of human pigmentation diversity|journal=Human Molecular Genetics|date=April 15, 2009|volume=18|issue=R1|doi=https://doi.org/10.1093/hmg/ddp003|url=https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/18/R1/R9/2901093/Molecular-genetics-of-human-pigmentation-diversity|accessdate=25 September 2017}}</ref> The ASIP locus prevents the MC1R receptor from producing melanocyte-stimulating hormone. As a result, less eumelanin and more pheomelanin is produced. Pheomelanin has been linked to red hair and increased risk of skin damage due to UV light.
http://www.ncdes.ca/index.php/Profiles/CindySousa
<ref>{{cite journal|last1=Nasti|first1=Tahseen|last2=Timares|first2=Laura|title=MC1R, Eumelanin and Pheomelanin: Their Role in Determining the Susceptibility to Skin Cancer|journal=Photochemistry and Photobiology|date=7 Novemeber 2014|volume=91|issue=1|doi=10.1111/php.12335|url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/php.12335/full|accessdate=29 September 2017}}</ref>


Tbechar
That's all I could find and she doesn't even have red hair.
{{reflist talk}}


== Some irish people say irish have red hair because of the vikings? ==
[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 16:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I have heard some irish people say that some irish people have red or blonde hair because of the Germanic invasion(Vikings) of Ireland. Why do irish people say this?


== Medieval antisemitism ==
==RV of edit by 63.65.68.246 on 19/10/06==
The following proposition:
{{quote|The medieval prejudice against red-hair may have derived from the Ancient biblical tradition, in relation to biblical figures such as Esau and King David. |}}
is unsourced and it is contraddicted by the Bible. {{bibleverse|1 Samuel|16:1-13|NKJV}} affirms king David "was ruddy, with bright eyes, and good-looking." King David has been proclaimed saint for all the Christian Churches whi veretate the saints: his being ''ruddy'' couldn't have arisen any prejudice against rutilism.


== Relation to psychiatric and other abnormalities? ==
Whilst the comments made by 63.65.68.246 were valid I believe the talk page is a better place to express them than within the body of the article. See below
: The results of a 2001 study, by University of Edinburgh and University of Oxford teams of geneticists led by Harding and Rees caused some to speculate that the gene responsible for red hair may have originated among the Neanderthals some 100,000 years ago.[2] THE REFERENCE GIVEN MAKES NO MENTION OF NEANDERTHALS OR EDINBURGH OR OXFORD UNIVERSITY - THIS SECTION IS A JOKE Red-haired people would then be descendents of Neanderthal admixtures to Cro-Magnon, and would have spread from the area of Neanderthal-Cro-Magnon contact. But interbreeding of Neanderthals with Homo sapiens is still a matter of debate (NO IT ISN'T, IT HAS BEEN RULED OUT), and in 2003, Edinburgh geneticist J. Rees suggested that the gene originated as recently as 40,000 to 20,000 years ago in Europe, well after the human migration from Africa, so that the geographical distribution of red hair would be due to post-glacial expansions from Europe.
References for any of the above statements would also be helpful .[[User:Agnellous|Agnellous]] 13:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
:I don't immediately recall references on the origin of the red-hair gene, but I do recall an issue of Science a few months ago discussing the ancestry of the human species, and concluding that there was liking interbreeding between the various sub-species of humanoid present in the past. I remember this because it is the only time I've ever heard the phrase "inter-species carnality". [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 16:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


Red hair is associated with increased risk of various disorders. Would be interesting to see more discussion on this, even if research is limited and controversial [[Special:Contributions/73.59.17.63|73.59.17.63]] ([[User talk:73.59.17.63|talk]]) 01:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
How do hypocortisolism and obesity go hand in hand? hypo (meaning lack of) cortisol, typically results in minimal to extreme *weightloss* (vs. obesity, which would indicate potential "hyper"cortisolism.
Off my high-horse...please continue with discussion. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:71.251.127.57|71.251.127.57]] ([[User talk:71.251.127.57|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.251.127.57|contribs]]) 9 November 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

==POV==
Any reason for the tag? The article seems fine and there's no discussion here about it. -[[User:Pnkrockr|Pnkrockr]] 17:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:If you look over the edit history, you'll see that the tag was added by an IP which was also used to repeatedly remove parts of the discussion of the origin of the red-haired gene. My guess is that someone feels they were being insulted, although I can't figure out why. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding? It's clear to me. Woudln't ''you'' be insulted if someone said your hair color gene came from cavemen?

Personally, I don't believe that at all, if that were true, wouldn't they be dumber than everyone else of other hair colors and this isn't true of them so I don't believe it either.

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 19:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:I am a redhead and don't find it insulting. -[[User:Pnkrockr|Pnkrockr]] 19:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Since we are all descended from cavemen, all of my genes came from them. Tracing back the particular subspecies of human that the red-hair gene came from isn't insulting, it is merely an interesting display of genetic analysis. Given that all this happened tens of thousands of years back, there should be no correlation between red hair and intelligence. A similar analysis could be applied to the blue-eye gene, which I carry. It has been suggested that that one evolved as a way to attract potential mates, by being unusual in appearance. This has lost any utility over time, but has been preserved in the population. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 19:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Are you seriously suggesting that having blue eyes has lost its utility to attract potential mates? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:70.49.97.39|70.49.97.39]] ([[User talk:70.49.97.39|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/70.49.97.39|contribs]]) 15:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

In any event, there doesn't seem to be anything that could be considered insulting on the page right now, and there's no explanation for the POV tag here, so I'll remove it. If anyone wants to put it back, they should explain why here. [[User:EronMain|Eron]] 19:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the way I understood it is that modern day humans and Neanderthals interbred and produced redheaded Homo Sapiens as is stated in the article as a possibility. Personally, I would find that offensive because it would imply that redheads are a devolved form of Homo Sapiens, if I read it wrong, please let me know.

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 20:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

:It would absolutely not imply that redheads were a devolved form of Homo Sapiens, only that the particular gene may come from Neanderthals (and the article is clear to point out that this is disputed). Given that we share genes with animals ''much'' lower on the evolutionary chart than Neanderthals, I think you are reading that bit incorrectly. Given that a great many other people also share this gene without having red hair, I don't think you have anything to worry about even if this hypothesis is true. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 21:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:The logic of the cited study is as follows: between a few hundred thousand and about forty thousand years ago, there were many different subspecies of humanity, including the [[Neanderthals]]. These subspecies interbred to a considerable extent. We ('''homo sapiens sapiens''') carry genes from many of the subspecies. Sequencing of Neanderthal DNA shows that some of them had red hair, which hasn't been seen the other subspecies for which there are good sequences. The inference is that the red-haired gene entered the human population from a mutation in a Neanderthal. Red-heads aren't 'devolved', they simply express a gene from one of our ancestors. And, as noted above, many people who do not have red hair themselves carry that gene. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:I agree with both statements above, and would like to add that the geographical range of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis coincides remarkably with the occurance of red hair (Europe through the Middle East) [[User:The Great Attractor|The Great Attractor]] 02:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, make of this what you want but this pretty much disproves the whole red hair came from cave men theory to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061115/hl_hsn/neanderthaldnashowsnointerbreedingwithhumans

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 19:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
:The Science and Nature papers do give the main time of divergence as ~500000 years ago. However, that doesn't rule out interbreeding. It merely means that the populations became genetically distinct. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 20:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


It seems to me there are two discussions here. (1) Did modern humans interbreed with Neanderthals. Interesting but only indirectly relevant to an article about red hair. (2) Is red hair a genetic legacy of Neanderthals? Even if it’s unlikely, it’s certainly worthy of discussion in an article about red hair.

I cut out this bit:
: ''However, in November 2006, a paper was published in the U.S. journal [[Proceedings]] of the [[National Academy of Sciences]], in which a team a [[European]] [[Research|researchers]] report that Neanderthals and humans [[interbreed|interbred]]. Co-author [[Erik Trinkaus]] from [[Washington University]] explains, "Closely related species of [[mammal]]s freely interbreed, produce fertile viable offspring, and blend populations." The study claims to settle the extinction controversy that according to researchers, the human and neanderthal populations blended together through sexual reproduction. Erick Trinkaus states, "Extinction through absorption is a common phenomenon."<ref>[http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/814 Humans and Neanderthals interbred]</ref>''
Not because it was wrong (I'm not really qualified to judge) but because it belongs more properly in a general discussion of [[Neandertal interaction with Cro-Magnons]] (and I see that this article too has been updated - nice work). In the Red hair article, I replaced this section with a more general sentence about (disputed) Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon interbreeding and a link to the Neanderthal interaction article. Can we keep the Red hair article focused on red hair?
[[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 09:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The Neanderthal stuff is also starting to distort the organization of the article. The first section under the TOC is titled "Historical distribution". After its first paragraph, this section discusses the areas where red-haired people were found historically, and are found today. That is what I would expect in a historical distribution sections. But the first paragraph now discusses theories of the appearance of the genes for red hair, for red hair among Neanderthals, etc. I think this information would be better placed in the section on "Biochemistry and genetics of red hair". I also agree that, cited or not, content about interbreeding and extinction through absorption isn't really on-topic for an article on red hair. I'll try to move the Neanderthal stuff to a more appropriate place in the article. [[User:EronMain|Eron]] 13:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

:Agree that the Neanderthal speculation belongs in the Evolution section. I'm still not convinced that the sentence ''"However, in November 2006, a paper was published in the U.S. journal ''[[Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences]]'', in which a team a [[European]] [[Research|researchers]] report that Neanderthals and humans [[hybrid|interbred]]"''is relevant to this particular article. Even if Neanderthals and modern humans did interbreed (something which is apparantly disputed), this implies no link to red hair more than any other trait. [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 13:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

www.ox.ac.uk/blueprint/2000-01/3105/11.shtml
Suggesting humans interbred with Neanderthals and so produced a hybrid red-haired human belongs in a yet to be established Sci Fi section. The reference given in the main text is not, as is implied, to PNAS, but is to the speculative magazine COSMOS. The current state of play is I believe as set out below.

Dr Harding, a population geneticist at the Weatherall Institute of Molecular Medicine, said: 'This research is part of other work we are currently doing in genetics. We wanted to put the red hair gene into an evolutionary context, and the model used for examining this gene is a good basis for further research on other genes. We are doing more sequencing which will hopefully give us more data that are sensitive for revealing natural selection and therefore better results and clearer answers.'

It has been widely reported that the gene originated in Neanderthal man. Dr Harding says this just isn't true: 'We have never stated in our research that this gene is Neanderthal, but at the moment I cannot statistically prove that it isn't which is why others have drawn these conclusions.' It is thought that now people are moving around the world and meeting people from other cultures, the red hair gene is being spread into areas where it would not naturally occur, such as Jamaica. Red hair is also found in Papua New Guinea although it's not known why. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:63.65.68.246|63.65.68.246]] ([[User talk:63.65.68.246|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/63.65.68.246|contribs]]) 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:I think there is a difference between suggesting that the gene coding for red hair may have originated in Neanderthals and been transmitted into modern humans by interbreeding, and stating that "humans interbred with Neanderthals and so produced a hybrid red-haired human." I don't think there's any suggestion that red-haired humans are somehow hybrid Neanderthals; I would think that if interbreeding did occur, every ''h.sapiens'' alive today would carry some genetic legacy of the Neanderthals.

:That aside, I think a lot of the issues with this content in this article is that it relies on second-hand sources. We have several references that talk about the Oxford study, but we don't have a reference to the study itself. We have a reference that talks about the ''Proceedings'' paper, but none to the paper itself. We don't really know what those sources say; we only know what people say they say. This reduces their value somewhat.

:What can we say for certain based on the sources? We can say that "estimates on the original occurrence of the gene for red hair vary from 20,000 to 100,000 years ago." We can also reference statements that there is speculation that this gene may have originated in Neanderthals. After that, we risk getting side-tracked into a swamp of off-topic "Some say... others believe..." on the subject of prehistoric interbreeding. Perhaps a simple "Some have speculated that this gene originated in Neanderthals and entered the human genetic code through interbreeding, but this theory remains controversial." Throw in a link to [[Neandertal interaction with Cro-Magnons]] and leave it at that. [[User:EronMain|Eron]] 16:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess this would be a tolerable approach. I just feel that this Neanderthal / Red Hair link is *someones* fantasy. Rufosity is not rare in the animal kingdom. For example, Orangutan's have reddish hair, many breeds of dog (e.g. King Charles Spaniels) have what can only be described as ginger hair. This would appear to be a common mutation that does not require a fanciful explanation.<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:63.65.68.246|63.65.68.246]] ([[User talk:63.65.68.246|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/63.65.68.246|contribs]]) 09:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:I agree with Eron's approach. I think the redhead/Neanderthal hypothesis needs to be mentioned, because some readers will be looking for info about it, but it should be clear that this is in the realm of speculation at this stage. Also, the debate about whether or not Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons interbred should be kept to the appropriate page and not clog up the Red Hair article. [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 09:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like scientific racism to me. The authors of the original study already indicated that the information was being taken out of context - in other words this debate doesn't even exist among the scientific community. I'm going to remove this BS. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:69.165.32.189|69.165.32.189]] ([[User talk:69.165.32.189|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.165.32.189|contribs]]) 03:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:"Scientific racism"? That seems a bit strong. In any case, all the text you removed was referenced and some of it was useful to the article:
::''Estimates on the original occurrence of the gene for red hair vary from 20,000 to 100,000 years ago.'' Referenced, and a useful, factual addition to the article.
::''Based on a 2001 Oxford University study, some commentators speculated that Neanderthals had red hair, and that some red-headed and freckled humans today share some genetic heritage with Neanderthals.'' Referenced. Note that the article is not saying "people with red hair have Neanderthal heritage" - it is simply saying that someone has made that claim.
::''Other researchers disagree, and some of the scientists who conducted the study claim this is a misinterpretation of their findings.'' Referenced rebuttal of the claims that concern you.
::''However, in November 2006, a paper was published in the U.S. journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, in which a team of European researchers report that Neanderthals and humans may have interbred, although no reference was made to red hair.'' Referenced, although as the reference doesn't talk about red hair, it should probably go.

:I've restored all the deleted content; I'll take that last sentence out now. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]] <sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 13:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

=="Rufosity"==

I removed the redirect (didn't realize I wasn't logged in) since it redirects right to this article, but at the cost of clarity. Could somebody fix this? [[User:Alternator|Alternator]] 07:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

:"Rufosity" is just another way of saying "having red hair", right? [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 13:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, it is, but many readers aren't going to know that, so I'm thinking that it might be best to reword the phrase. I didn't have any good ideas, though, so I just made the note here in the talk page. [[User:Alternator|Alternator]] 06:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added the fact that having red hair is sometimes called rufosity to the intro. Given that this page is a redirect from rufosity, it is probably a good idea to explain that early. [[User:EronMain|Eron]] 13:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but what is the etymology of that word and such? Where does it come from? Personally, when I hear it, I think of dogs not Red hair. [[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 18:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

:I assumed that it came from "rufous", an adjective meaning reddish-brown. But I'm not an etymologist; I added the line about rufosity in an attempt to explain why that term redirected here. From its use in the article, (''"based on a 2001 Oxford University study, some commentators speculated that Neanderthals exhibited rufosity,"'') I assumed that it was an anthropological term and didn't go any further than that.

:I have now, as best I can. My Concise Oxford doesn't list the word. Neither do any of the open-source dictionaries I have been able to find. I googled "rufosity" both alone and with keywords like "red hair" and "anthropology" and the results were interesting. Many links are to this page or to mirrors of it. Others are to sites that posit... let's call them fringe racial theories. None are what I would consider reputable sources. One or two include forums that make me want to take a shower after reading them.

:From what I can tell, the word "rufosity" occurs seven times on Wikipedia, in four articles. Most of those occurences are variants of the phrase I quoted above. Given that this does not appear to be a "real" word, or at least a word commonly used by reputable persons studying human pigmentation, I would suggest replacing all its occurences with "red hair" or something along those lines, and then putting the redirect up for deletion. Anyone think that's a bad idea? [[User:EronMain|Eron]] 20:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

:I don't know if rufosity itself is a word, but it has roots in Latin. The name "Rufus," in Latin, means a red head. [[User:Millancad|<span style="color:HotPink">ɱў</span><span style="color:Gold">ɭ</span><span style="color:LightGreen">ĩє</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Millancad|<small><sup><span style="color:red">What did I do</span></sup></small>]][[User_talk:Millancad|<sub><span style="color:Purple">'''wrong'''</span></sub>]] 04:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds bad. I agree, remove the phrase as well as it's redirects.

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 02:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that we should leave the redirect from the Rufosity article intact, because some people might actually check that, and it does appear to be a valid (if rare) English word. I've seen it in a few dictionaries after checking, but none of the big ones; my best guess is that it is archaic. However, I support removing all occurances in other articles. [[User:Alternator|Alternator]] 08:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

:When I looked into policy on deleting redirects I came to the same conclusion, so I left the redirect intact and didn't bother posting it for deletion. The other edits are all done. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]] 20:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

== Contrary to Popular Belief==
Contrary to popular belief, Scotland is the nation with the most redheads. Most redheads, in the British Isles, USA, Canada, Australia and so on are of Scottish descent. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/151.199.52.99|151.199.52.99]] ([[User talk:151.199.52.99|talk]]) 22:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

== Celts, Picts and Nordics ==
In addition to the above I would like to make some points:

1) Celts proper tend to have brown or black hair and brown eyes - see [[Black Irish]], etc. Celts come from Gaul. The "Celtic" countries in the British Isles have a more significant mixture of Nordic (I haplogroup) blood than pure Celts, as well as having been mixed with Picts and other prehistoric populations who may or may not have been R1B haplogroup like Celts, but clearly had somewhat different features.

2) I think Tacitus was describing the ''Picts'' in the modern-day Scotland as having red hair, need to check Germania.

3) I think the redheaded Scots tend to be ''lowland'' Scots, in other words primarily Germanic and Nordic people - in addition to the Pict blood which was historically described as red. I believe Celts did not come to Scotland en masse until ''later''.

3) Tacitus described ''Germans in general'' as having red hair, I do not remember anything from his work about Gaulish redheads at all. The statement was simply "Germans have red(ish) hair".

4) I think the big question is whether red hair is more associated with haplogroup R1B or I, or a person with parents from each type, or associated with some particular mitochondrial DNA line. Of course it is not only inherited along those lines, but the question is whether it is a Germanic/Nordic feature or Celtic (R1B) - I think emphatically it is the former.

-- [[User:Fourdee|Fourdee]] 20:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

::I absolutely agree that red hair has its origins in the Nordic region and is too often mistaken as a "Celtic" feature. I have a best friend with red hair that gets ticked off every time I say it's a Scandinavian thing. Her mother is a blonde Anglo whose parents are English and her father's parents are Russian. I have explained that in order to get red hair both her parents must carry the gene so where did her father pick it up? Undoubtedly from the Swedish Vikings who settled the Rus. I don't recall too many Celts settling in the Russia area.

1) In all areas where red hair is found in a substantial amount, the Vikings and other Scandinavian descendants (Germanic tribes) played a predominant role in their history. Much the same can be said for the blonde gene. Russia, Northern Italy, the British Isles and even the Middle East are examples of these areas that all have Scandinavian settlers in common.

2) Evidence suggests that the Picts in the British Isles due to geographical location, early language and cultural finds, were descendants of Scandinavians and absorbed surrounding Celtic culture.

3) Red hair may be more prominent in the British Isles today, but this can be attributed to the high incidence of "inter-mingling" of genes which make its recessiveness more prominent.

4) A study of men in the British Isles with red hair proved that they have more in common genetically with modern Norwegians than other people in their communities considered to be of Celtic/"Black Irish" descent.

5) I have not one drop of Irish blood in me, yet on my mother's side of the family (3/4 Swedish, 1/4 Norwegian) we have enough redheads to rival the percentage of redheads in Ireland today.

Vikings often took slaves to scandanavia from scotland. This would explain the gene flow.

[[User:Rapunzel In Van|Rapunzel In Van]] 07:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
:Please remember [[Wikipedia:No original research]] and that this is a talk page. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 07:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

::::Sorry, but the above is not original research. It is fact that has been published numerous times by genetics and history professionals to counter the belief that Red hair has its origins with the Celts. I did not feel the need to cite sources since this is indeed the Talk page, and this is the venue is it not on how to improve the article and its contributions? Such contributions put into the article and cited would be dismissed easily by those who believe red hair has its origins in Ireland, therefore this is the perfect venue to discuss it. [[User:Rapunzel In Van|Rapunzel In Van]] 01:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

==Vandalism to this article==
I am confused by a large portion of the vandalism to this article. Where do people get the idea to add such bollocks as 'redheds have no souls?' This has been added by numerous IPs, so I'm fairly sure it isn't a single person. This is not a general 'why is there vandalism' question. Is there some strange mythos around red hair? [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 19:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

:Probably just the usual anti-white racism that shows up on all the relevant articles... The only thing scientific I remember hearing is that redheads feel pain more accutely. Not sure if that is true either but it was published as science and reported in the news. I've also heard, both directly from them and from other people, that redheaded women have short tempers; not sure of the veracity of that either but it might be an interesting matter for research. [[User:Fourdee|Fourdee]] 21:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

:It may be a response to a "South Park" (American television program) episode in which one main character insists that "ginger kids" (redheads) have no souls. And in reponse to Fourdee, I can attest that redheaded women do tend to be of short temper, although I believe this may be due to the propensity for the gene to be associated with certain cultural groups. The stereotypical Irish matriarch springs to mind... :) [[User:The Great Attractor|The Great Attractor]] 02:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have the page protected against vandalism as this is getting out of hand. It happens about every day and I've been watching this page for a while now.

You know, I was always told that people hated redheads (other whites as well) but I never believed it was true until I saw the amount of vandalism to this page.


[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 01:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


Loads of people hate red headeds especially in britain, with southpark's ginger kids seems to have feuled the vandalism -- wolfmankurd

WHAT?? I can't believe what I'm reading! Why is this? I can't believe people hate redheads like that!
I love them, in fact I think they're superior to dark haired people. And no, I don't have red hair but I wish I did.

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 19:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the South Park episode "[[Ginger Kids]]" probably contributed to the stereotypes. The racially insensitive [[Eric Cartman]] character gives a presentation to his class claiming that children with red hair, light skin, and freckles have a fictitous disease called "Gingervitis" and do not have souls. It is actually a funny episode, if not taken seriously. {{unsigned}}
:I think this explains it. South Park is the bane of Wikipedia, apparently. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 03:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

=="gingerphobia"==
There's got to be a better word for it than that. It may seem like nothing to you, but some of the vandalism mentioned above suggests there is indeed "gingerphobia" present in today's society. Surely this ... discrimination has a name. Is there any correct label for such a thing, mockery on the basis of having red hair (or blonde hair or brown hair for that matter)? They have a name for everything. [[User:EmpComm|EmpComm]] 20:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


I completely agree. I’ve grown up with the word 'ginger' being used towards me in a derogatory way. I believe this word is extremely derogatory. Although not classed as racist because red heads are, in majority, Caucasians and those who use the word ginger also Caucasians.

Many words have been described to generalise a race throughout history which in today’s society of political correctness are deemed disgraceful and insulting. Why then is it still alright for newspapers and magazines to use the words ‘Ginger Winger’ etc in describing someone with red hair.

Red, orange or auburn are examples of what I see politically correct and which accurately describe the colour. Ginger is not a colour and therefore should not be used as slang. {{unsigned|86.13.128.97}}

== Red hair and Neanderthals ==

Considering that DNA evidence has now determined that Neanderthals could not have interbred with us, an unscientific source claiming the genes for red hair come from them should not be included in this article. Even if it was possible, that article is not a reliable source. I know it's asking a lot, but please think next time before blindly reverting. [[User:70.50.52.152|70.50.52.152]] 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:Please do not call edits you disagree with "vandalism". If you delete content with no explanation, you can expect that deletion to be reverted. That's not vandalism. If you have a problem with article content, discuss it - or at least explain yourself - before removing it. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]] <sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 23:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:If you refer to the Neanderthal genomic work reported in Nature on Nov 16, 2006, be aware that this does not rule out gene transfer between Neanderthals and modern humans. The paper merely demonstrates that the populations of Neanderthal and human diverged on average 500000 years ago. This is not the same as saying that they could not have inter-bred. In fact, inter-breeding is a common suspicion based on the same studies, because of strange mutations that show up in a few humans and many Neanderthals. This was reported in Nature earlier in 2006, and was the first time the phrase 'inter-species carnality' ever appeared in the journal. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 23:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

== Research on red hair and temperament? ==
Has there been any peer-reviewed academic research on whether the temperamental attributes associated by folklore with red hair, such as aggression and libidinousness, actually have any basis in reality? Given the genetic origin of red hair, and its known correlation with variations in the perception of pain, this would seem like a reasonable direction for research, but I cannot find anything in Medline that suggests this area is being investigated.

Any statistically significant result would be interesting, whether it tended to confirm the folklore about redheads, or to refute it by confirming the null hypothesis that hair colour has no influence on personality, or even demonstrated a correlation in the reverse direction to that suggested by folklore.

It really wouldn't be very hard to do, and could be piggybacked onto just about any other study of impulsivity, aggression, etc., or even data-mined out of other, older, studies if pictures of the participants were available.

The [[California Twin Study]] seems to have combined data-gathering on physical attributes including hair color with personality tests: that might be a candidate for data mining.

Update: I've now found the following studies on hair color and personality:

* Lawson ED. Hair color, personality, and the observer. ''Psychol Rep.'' 1971 Feb;28(1):311-22. PMID 5549452
* Moehler E, Kagan J, Brunner R, Wiebel A, Kaufmann C, Resch F. Association of behavioral inhibition with hair pigmentation in a European sample. Biol Psychol. 2006 Jun;72(3):344-6. Epub 2006 Jan 18. PMID 16414174

Since I don't have access to the text of either, I have no idea whether either of these has data on red hair vs. other hair colors.


-- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 17:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Why would anyone believe that if you have red hair you will have a bad temper? Does that mean if you have black hair your calm in personality? The problem is that if you question old wife’s tales, the old wife questions your temperament and you’re then perceived as angry. {{unsigned|86.13.128.97}}

== being a red headed man....gingerman ==

im a 44 male with longred hair, same hair as ive had all my life, with no signs of aging
and yet before being online, ive never really new that being a redhead was something sience wouold find so interesting to study......what is the point in all this research about redhairs..do i know any redheads outside the family, no i dont ...i have no neighbors either, no coworkers taht share the redhead sysdrome......and the hate part of being redhead.if i travel to the UK....do 8I need to be careful in what i say or do so i am not attacked for being redheaded.....or should i travel to parts of the world where it doesnot matter, like scotland......whats next, the judging of a person based on there skin color...no wait, we already do that dont we...whats next, the hatred of people who are human? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/75.2.7.20|75.2.7.20]] ([[User talk:75.2.7.20|talk]]) 20:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

==Biochemistry vs genetics==
The section on Biochemistry, genetics and evolution is a bit confusing to me. What, or where, is the distinction between genetics and biochem? It seems the MCR1 is genetics, but it's called biochemistry. This section needs a bit more organization, but I'm afraid I just don't know enough about genetics, etc. to dare try it. I'd appreciate someone's help. Thanks! --[[User:Zuejay|Zuejay]] 00:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

== Too much vandalism! ==

We need to seriously think about making this page a protected page. The daily insults about redheads, and today even a stupid picture. The picture is visible in the page history as I've reverted it.

Is there a possibility for page protection?

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 15:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
:Not at the present time. [[User:Arjun]] concludes that the vandalism rate is low enough to be managable. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 19:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Seriously? Ok then. I just thought I should bring it up. What would be an unacceptable level of vandalism?

[[User:Faris b|Faris b]] 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
:Vandalism more often than once every six hours or so seems to be the normal threshold. [[User:Michaelbusch|Michaelbusch]] 05:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

== Ehlers-Danlos ==

Ehlers-Danlos type V has only been documented in one family and is not included in current lists of the types. Thus, it's irrelevant and not necessarily related to EDS.[[User:Ninquerinquar|Ninquerinquar]] 03:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

:I removed it! If it only occured in one family, the red hair may have been totally coincidental and not related to the syndrome. [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 10:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

== Lady Sovereign ==

About the British slang, the London hip-hop artist Louise Harmon aka [[Lady Sovereign]] frequently uses the term "ginger" in her songs, but I don't know how this relates to fedheaded people, i.e. the context doesn't seem to refer to heir type.

[[User:Arkhamite|Arkhamite]] 21:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

== Red Haired Pharaohs? ==

The following claim needs prof or to be clearly marked as a claim without proof.


"...Ancient Egyptians...The dynasties Tutmoses, Rammeses and Mentuhotep included red (and orange) haired pharaohs.[citation needed]..."

'''These are African dynasties of Kemet''' and there is no evidence of White or Red headed Africans in Kemet except possibly in the North during the Hyksos invasion of Africa (c. 1500 B.C.E.) and brief occupation before being driven out.

Any evidence of so called White Africans would need to be accompanied with melanin dosage tests to merit credibility.

--[[User:Aunk|Aunk]] 02:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

==Red haired man image==
Since there is a user insisting that the picture Image:Gingerkid.jpg is more appropriate to the article than Image:RedheadedGuy.jpg, perhaps we should discuss it. The RedheadedGuy image is solely of an individual with red hair. The other image, Gingerkid, shows an individual with red hair and a beer can. I feel RedheadedGuy is more encyclopedic. Please, express your opinion before we continue the RV war. Perhaps we can gain concensus. Thanks <b><i><font face="Times New Roman" color="darkblue">[[User:Zuejay|Zue]]</font></i><font face="Times New Roman" color="blue">[[Special:Contributions/Zuejay|Jay]]</font><small> ([[User talk:Zuejay|talk]])</small></b> 03:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The images are: [[Image:RedheadedGuy.JPG|70px|RedheadedGuy]][[Image:Gingerkid.JPG|70px|Gingerkid]]<b><i><font face="Times New Roman" color="darkblue">[[User:Zuejay|Zue]]</font></i><font face="Times New Roman" color="blue">[[Special:Contributions/Zuejay|Jay]]</font><small> ([[User talk:Zuejay|talk]])</small></b> 03:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

:I agree that the RedheadedGuy(picture 1) is more encyclopedic, as it is just a picture of a boy with red hair, while the Gingerkid (picture2) picture has other distractions, such as the beer can and the other person's arm. [[User:Pnkrockr|Pnkrockr]] 03:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

::[[User:Illbill1000]] has edited Image:Gingerkid.jpg to Image:head187.jpg and installed it on the page. The image subject appears to have "red eye" thus the original Image:ReadheadedGuy.jpg still seems better. The new image is:<br>[[Image:head187.JPG|70px]] <b><i><font face="Times New Roman" color="darkblue">[[User:Zuejay|Zue]]</font></i><font face="Times New Roman" color="blue">[[Special:Contributions/Zuejay|Jay]]</font><small> ([[User talk:Zuejay|talk]])</small></b> 03:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Agreed. Apart from that, the beercan dude pic is only a quarter the resolution and has some really bad anti-aliasing going on - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 05:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
:The first image is not perfect, but better than the second/new one. -- ''[[User:Nae'blis|nae]]'[[User_talk:Nae'blis|blis]]'' 18:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

===Red haired man image (revived)===
Another go at replacing this image has been made - the newly proporsed image, [[Image:Ginger.jpg‎|70px|Ginger.jpg]] has an awful lot of background "clutter" that the original does not. <b><i><font face="Times New Roman" color="darkblue">[[User:Zuejay|Zue]]</font></i><font face="Times New Roman" color="blue">[[Special:Contributions/Zuejay|Jay]]</font><small> ([[User talk:Zuejay|talk]])</small></b> 17:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

:It's all just vandalism. Leave the "redheadedguy" pic as it is. [[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 18:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

===Red haired man image again===
And another red headed guy image has been replacing the current image.The requested image has clutter in the background and the red hair is not as obvious as in the original picture. [[Image:L 30aa264da902a7bba01b1d36e600bfcc.jpg|90px]] [[User:Pnkrockr|Pnkrockr]] 01:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

* Image speedy deleted as unlicensed and used in attacks. Editor in question repeatedly reverted to their version and inserted "[blah blah] is gay". Blocked 24 hours - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#558; font-family: comic sans ms; font-variant: small-caps">'''A<font color= "#7070a0">l<font color= "#9090c0">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] [[User talk:Alison|☺]] 02:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
==Top image suggestion==
How about a single image at the top showing a variety of red-hair colours of both sexes, much like the composite images I've seen in [[animal]] and [[World War II]]. [[User:Richard001|Richard001]] 06:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

:Sounds like a good idea to me. Should we include red-haired celebrities such as Nicole Kidman and David Caruso? [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 08:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

No, not unless you're getting pics of people with firery red hair like the 2 in use now. Some people, you can't tell that they have red hair like Nicole Kidman.

[[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 13:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

:I agree we should use the two pictures already there, they clearly display the hair and the typical redhead complexion. But a composite image should also include different shades such as auburn. [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 08:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I've seen Nicole Kidman go on record as saying that she dyed her hair ginger and that is not her natural colour. {{unsigned|Goldgreen}}

I'm not surprised, she didn't appear to have any features common to redheads.

[[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 20:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

What are "features common to redheads"? AFAIK, the only feature definitely associated with red hair (other than the hair color itself) is pale skin with a tendency to freckle, and Kidman certainly has that. I wouldn't assume anything about her natural hair color on the basis of her features. [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 09:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, these features are:

*Blonde and/or red eyebrows and eyelashes
*Numerous freckles (Most whites only have a few compared to redheads)
*Pink nipples
*Orange colored palms of the hands and feet
*Wider hands/feet

I know some of these are probably a bit hard to believe but I've done my own research.

[[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 13:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

* Eyebrows and freckles, yes, but pink nipples?? And wider hands?? Wow ... - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#558; font-family: comic sans ms; font-variant: small-caps">'''A<font color= "#7070a0">l<font color= "#9090c0">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] [[User talk:Alison|☺]] 18:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
:I don't know about the last three features on that list. [[User:Pnkrockr|Pnkrockr]] 01:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks. Anyway, it's true. See for yourself next time you see a redheaded person. The nipple one might be tough though.

Anyway, regarding the hands/feet. It's the opposite in darker peoples. They have narrower hands/feet.

[[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 04:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
* I'm not going to ask you how you did the informal nipple research! - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#558; font-family: comic sans ms; font-variant: small-caps">'''A<font color= "#7070a0">l<font color= "#9090c0">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] [[User talk:Alison|☺]] 04:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

:You did that just to make me look at my hands, didn't you? Nope, palms are definitely pink, not orange, and if anything they're slightly narrower than average. If there's formal research to back it up, I'll happily accept that I'm the freaky one with red hair and non-orange narrow hands. Otherwise, I'll counter you're anecdotal evidence with my anecdotal evidence. Not commenting on the nipples! [[User:Fionah|Fionah]] 07:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

::I guess I'm in the same boat as you, as I'm a redhead but my hands and feet are pretty much the same color as the rest of me, if not a little pink. Not sure if they are wider or narrower than a national average, but I'd pretty much say they're in the middle. So unless there is research to backup the above claims, I can also counter them with my own anecdotal evidence. [[User:Pnkrockr|Pnkrockr]] 13:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I said common to redheads, not present in all. As far as I know, there's no formal research done on the matter, just the notes I've taken myself.

:I have very red hair, about as red as it gets, and most of those features are true for me.
Darkish blond eyebrows, and my eyelashes are brown with blond tips. Not as many freckles as some redheads, but still a good number on my arms despite the fact that I avoid the sun like the plague. Pink nipples, yes, though I would have thought that a common feature among most of caucasian descent. As for the orange palms and bottoms of feet, not a distinct orange, but a peachier pink, on the warm side, as opposed to a cooler pink. In keeping with my small frame, my hands are also somewhat small, but proportionately, I've noticed the palms of my hands are a bit more square than some women's. Also, I do have wider feet.

Considering I partially or fully fit each of the traits listed, I suppose I would be positive anecdotal evidence. -Cassandra

[[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 14:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

:I have very red hair, about as red as it gets, and most of those features are true for me.
Darkish blond eyebrows, and my eyelashes are brown with blond tips. Not as many freckles as some redheads, but still a good number on my arms despite the fact that I avoid the sun like the plague. Pink nipples, yes, though I would have thought that a common feature among most of caucasian descent. As for the orange palms and bottoms of feet, not a distinct orange, but a peachier pink, on the warm side, as opposed to a cooler pink. In keeping with my small frame, my hands are also somewhat small, but proportionately, I've noticed the palms of my hands are a bit more square than some women's. Also, I do have wider feet.

Considering I partially or fully fit each of the traits listed, I suppose I would be positive anecdotal evidence. -Cassandra 18 May 2007

Hi and thanks for sharing and proving my studies to be correct. So does that mean that we can work this info into the page now?

[[User:Vala M|Vala M]] 02:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

* [[WP:NOR|No]], unfortunately. Sorry :( - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#558; font-family: comic sans ms; font-variant: small-caps">'''A<font color= "#7070a0">l<font color= "#9090c0">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] [[User talk:Alison|☺]] 02:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

== Partially red hair? ==

This page seems only to mention cases where all of a persons hair is red, but for me it is different. I have light blond hair on my head, but my beard is red, and the chesthair is brown, so where does that put me? Additionally, I have pale skin, very sensitive to the sun, and a tendency to freckles if sunburnt. Am I then some kind of semi-redhead? Both my parents were blond, but my mothers father was a full redhead.([[User:62.20.115.40|62.20.115.40]] 00:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
:As the article says, the redhair gene is recessive. That means that you have to have two redhair genes, one from your mother and one from your father, before you will have flaming red hair. However even people with one redhair gene may show signs of redness. If they inherit a redhair gene and a blackhair gene, the redness may not be easy to see since they will still have some melanin in their hair and skin and will therefore tan without freckles. However if they inherit a redhair and a blondhair gene, the redness may well be easy to spot due to the lack of melanin, leading to pale skin, freckles, etc. That appears to be what has happened in your case. You are what is commonly known as a "strawberry blond" in common parlance. -- [[User:Derek Ross|Derek Ross]] | [[User talk:Derek Ross|Talk]] 06:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

== Iranian Redheads ==

Upon finding this page, I was happy to see that Iranians were identified as a group commonly diplaying the trait. Most people automatically attribute red hair to Celtic inheritance. A good friend of mine, who is half Iranian, looks like she just got off the boat from Dublin, despite the fact that she has no European heritage. Amusingly, I'm 100% Irish heritage, but she possesses far more of the traits normally attributed to the island that I. Perhaps it might be a good idea to include the fact that Iranians (or Persians, depending on one's preference) can be Aryan despite the connotation of the stereotypical Nordic phenotype associated with the word? Iran is not an Arabic nation, despite Western perception. [[User:The Great Attractor|The Great Attractor]] 02:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It's funny that you have to mention this. First of all, it's your own short-sightedness, then indeed, the short-sightedness of a lot of people. Of course Iranians can have red hair. Chechens, Tatars, Kazakhs, Mongolians, Turks and Arabs are known for having a high percentage of red haired people among them. Why are people always so shocked to find this out? For me it was very funny to read your thing (you, The Great Attractor). It's so obvious for me that there are many red haired people from the Middle East, Persia, North India, Central Asia and the Altaic Region.

Latest revision as of 12:57, 31 December 2024

Spanish figures: Add them please

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The spanish figure is 2-3% redhaired people according to data. I leave the link here https://www.elmundo.es/magazine/2003/183/1048874109.html#:~:text=Si%20s%C3%B3lo%20el%207%25%20de,tanto%20dorado%20por%20nuestras%20ciudades? (Si sólo el 7% de los españoles es rubio natural (el 57% es castaño, el 26% moreno, el 3% pelirrojo y el 10% restante moreno y castaño claros)

Edit Suggestion - Genetics

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Under section 2.1 Genetics I propose the following addition:

A haplotype has been identified on the ASIP locus on chromosome 20 that is associated with red hair.[1] The ASIP locus prevents the MC1R receptor from producing melanocyte-stimulating hormone. As a result, less eumelanin and more pheomelanin is produced. Pheomelanin has been linked to red hair and increased risk of skin damage due to UV light. 

[2]

Tbechar

References

  1. ^ Sturm, Richard (April 15, 2009). "Molecular genetics of human pigmentation diversity". Human Molecular Genetics. 18 (R1). doi:https://doi.org/10.1093/hmg/ddp003. Retrieved 25 September 2017. {{cite journal}}: Check |doi= value (help); External link in |doi= (help)
  2. ^ Nasti, Tahseen; Timares, Laura (7 Novemeber 2014). "MC1R, Eumelanin and Pheomelanin: Their Role in Determining the Susceptibility to Skin Cancer". Photochemistry and Photobiology. 91 (1). doi:10.1111/php.12335. Retrieved 29 September 2017. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Some irish people say irish have red hair because of the vikings?

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I have heard some irish people say that some irish people have red or blonde hair because of the Germanic invasion(Vikings) of Ireland. Why do irish people say this?

Medieval antisemitism

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The following proposition:

The medieval prejudice against red-hair may have derived from the Ancient biblical tradition, in relation to biblical figures such as Esau and King David.

is unsourced and it is contraddicted by the Bible. 1 Samuel 16:1–13 affirms king David "was ruddy, with bright eyes, and good-looking." King David has been proclaimed saint for all the Christian Churches whi veretate the saints: his being ruddy couldn't have arisen any prejudice against rutilism.

Relation to psychiatric and other abnormalities?

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Red hair is associated with increased risk of various disorders. Would be interesting to see more discussion on this, even if research is limited and controversial 73.59.17.63 (talk) 01:18, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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