Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Benoit family tragedy: Difference between revisions
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. '' |
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Note: If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links in order to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]]. When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. --> |
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The result was '''no consensus'''. Quoting the nominator below: "I don't even believe there is a consensus, it seems that it's about cut 50/50 for merge/delete/redirect vs keep." I agree. '''[[User:Sr13|Sr]][[User talk:Sr13|13]]''' 08:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:{{la|Benoit family tragedy}} – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Benoit family tragedy|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 July 8#{{anchorencode:Benoit family tragedy}}|View log]])</noinclude> |
:{{la|Benoit family tragedy}} – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Benoit family tragedy|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 July 8#{{anchorencode:Benoit family tragedy}}|View log]])</noinclude> |
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This page shouldn't have been created. Per consensus on the talk page on the Chris Benoit article this page was opposed to for numerous reasonins. Please see [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chris_Benoit#Split_Needed.3F]] for further details. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''< |
This page shouldn't have been created. Per consensus on the talk page on the Chris Benoit article this page was opposed to for numerous reasonins. Please see [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chris_Benoit#Split_Needed.3F]] for further details. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<span style="color:blue;">Wikidudeman</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 08:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Wrestling|list of Wrestling-related deletions]]. </small> |
*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Wrestling|list of Wrestling-related deletions]]. </small>}} |
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====Section 1==== |
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*'''Keep''', I think it should be kept for the moment, but it could get possibly deleted in a few months time. I created this page, as the Benoit article was starting to get overloaded with stuff, and thought it would be best to start a new page. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 08:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''', I think it should be kept for the moment, but it could get possibly deleted in a few months time. I created this page, as the Benoit article was starting to get overloaded with stuff, and thought it would be best to start a new page. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 08:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' ::For the record, I'm not saying I necessarily support a deletion, however I would prefer a consensus be hacked out for a final measure as to whether it should exist or not. Which is why I brought it up for deletion, so that a forced consensus could be made as to whether or not it should stay or it should go. I am actually neutral as far as to whether this article deserves to have it's own page, I do however believe that the creator should have probably waited before creating it. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''< |
* '''Comment''' ::For the record, I'm not saying I necessarily support a deletion, however I would prefer a consensus be hacked out for a final measure as to whether it should exist or not. Which is why I brought it up for deletion, so that a forced consensus could be made as to whether or not it should stay or it should go. I am actually neutral as far as to whether this article deserves to have it's own page, I do however believe that the creator should have probably waited before creating it. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<span style="color:blue;">Wikidudeman</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 08:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**Thinking about it, I probably should of waited before creating a new page. Oh well. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 08:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
**Thinking about it, I probably should of waited before creating a new page. Oh well. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 08:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong merge'''. Not worth its own article, but most of the information should be included. '''[[User:HisSpaceResearch|h i s]]''' <sup>''[[User talk:HisSpaceResearch|s p a c e]]''</sup> <sub>'''[[Special:Contributions/HisSpaceResearch|r e s e a r c h]]'''</sub> 09:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Strong merge'''. Not worth its own article, but most of the information should be included. '''[[User:HisSpaceResearch|h i s]]''' <sup>''[[User talk:HisSpaceResearch|s p a c e]]''</sup> <sub>'''[[Special:Contributions/HisSpaceResearch|r e s e a r c h]]'''</sub> 09:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**That's one of the primary reasons that I created this article, because this will probably affect WWE and Professional Wrestling as a whole for the forseeable future, and I can see this being mentioned still in the next 2 - 3 months. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 17:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
**That's one of the primary reasons that I created this article, because this will probably affect WWE and Professional Wrestling as a whole for the forseeable future, and I can see this being mentioned still in the next 2 - 3 months. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 17:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' The tragedy has received extensive media coverage. The main article is titled Chris Benoit and not specifically about the tragedy. Many articles have specific titles to cover a specific topic such as the the ''Execution of Saddam Hussein''. As we speak, there is specific media coverage on this specific event. Simply put, the title matches the event. <span style="border: 3px solid #90ade3;">[[User:QuackGuru|<span style="background: #bad1fb; color: #000000;"> QuackGuru </span>]][[User_talk:QuackGuru|<span style="background: #90ade3; color: #FFFFFF;"> talk</span>]]</span> 18:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' The tragedy has received extensive media coverage. The main article is titled Chris Benoit and not specifically about the tragedy. Many articles have specific titles to cover a specific topic such as the the ''Execution of Saddam Hussein''. As we speak, there is specific media coverage on this specific event. Simply put, the title matches the event. <span style="border: 3px solid #90ade3;">[[User:QuackGuru|<span style="background: #bad1fb; color: #000000;"> QuackGuru </span>]][[User_talk:QuackGuru|<span style="background: #90ade3; color: #FFFFFF;"> talk</span>]]</span> 18:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' I think that the event in itself is [[WP:N|notable]] enough to warrant its own article. As long as [[WP:RS]], and [[WP:V]] are strictly enforced within the article, I see no problems with keeping it. [[User:82.27.21.157|82.27.21.157]] 18:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' I think that the event in itself is [[WP:N|notable]] enough to warrant its own article. As long as [[WP:RS]], and [[WP:V]] are strictly enforced within the article, I see no problems with keeping it. [[User:82.27.21.157|82.27.21.157]] 18:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC) <small>— [[Special:Contributions/82.27.21.157|82.27.21.157]] ([[User talk:82.27.21.157|talk]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small> |
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*'''Strong Keep''': Well sourced and with a large number of notable media references. Uncomfortable subject matter does not merit the [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]] votes. Do NOT merge the article back into Chris Benoit, as stated - the precedent of ''[[Execution of Saddam Hussein]]'' existing as a separate article to [[Saddam Hussein]]. --[[User:Eqdoktor|Eqdoktor]] 18:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Strong Keep''': Well sourced and with a large number of notable media references. Uncomfortable subject matter does not merit the [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]] votes. Do NOT merge the article back into Chris Benoit, as stated - the precedent of ''[[Execution of Saddam Hussein]]'' existing as a separate article to [[Saddam Hussein]]. --[[User:Eqdoktor|Eqdoktor]] 18:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Redirect/Merge''' This is an encyclopedia, and we need to make overviews of things. Spinning things off to other articles isn't what an encyclopedia should do. We should give a simple/fact-based version of the events, and keep it on the Benoit page for now. Also, if this page is kept, could we please change the title of it? Putting "tragedy" (even if most would agree that it is) is a real non-NPOV word. It should be something like "Benoit family homicide" or the like. [[User:Dannycali|Dannycali]] 19:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Redirect/Merge''' This is an encyclopedia, and we need to make overviews of things. Spinning things off to other articles isn't what an encyclopedia should do. We should give a simple/fact-based version of the events, and keep it on the Benoit page for now. Also, if this page is kept, could we please change the title of it? Putting "tragedy" (even if most would agree that it is) is a real non-NPOV word. It should be something like "Benoit family homicide" or the like. [[User:Dannycali|Dannycali]] 19:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Redirect''' and '''Strong Merge''' back into Benoit's article, where it belongs. [[User:Fhb3|fhb3]] 19:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Strong Redirect''' and '''Strong Merge''' back into Benoit's article, where it belongs. [[User:Fhb3|fhb3]] 19:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' The Benoit family tragidy is notable enough to have an independent page. [[User:Arthur_B]] |
*'''Keep''' The Benoit family tragidy is notable enough to have an independent page. [[User:Arthur_B]] |
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*'''Comment''' if kept, I have no real opinion |
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====Section 2==== |
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*'''Merge''' back onto the [[Chris Benoit]] article; consensus was to not create a second article about it. Title does not reflect a neutral tone either. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|< |
*'''Merge''' back onto the [[Chris Benoit]] article; consensus was to not create a second article about it. Title does not reflect a neutral tone either. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#FF0000;">M</span><span style="color:#EE0000;">o</span><span style="color:#DD0000;">e</span>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#0000FF;">ε</span>]] 23:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' One of the most discussed crimes of 2007, should clear the notability hurdle with room to spare. [[User:Mystery Meat|Mystery Meat]] 01:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' One of the most discussed crimes of 2007, should clear the notability hurdle with room to spare. [[User:Mystery Meat|Mystery Meat]] 01:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**The issue isn't notability. You should read the arguments before you vote. [[User:DurinsBane87|DurinsBane87]] 01:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
**The issue isn't notability. You should read the arguments before you vote. [[User:DurinsBane87|DurinsBane87]] 01:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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***A family tragedy is in no way encyclopedic, it belongs in an article. And Paris Hilton's prison time is also an event that probably equals this one in notablility, but would you mind explaining to me why an article hasn't been started on it if one on this event has? You're being inconsistent. There's nothing encylopedic or notable about any family involved in murder-suicide. It belongs in the involved subject's article, or perhaps as a reference if there is an article on murder suicide. 90% of the stuff in the article for this event has no encyclopedic value, Wiki encyclopedic or paper encyclopedic. And a consensus was already done, and the opposal of the creation of this article won. It should be removed. --[[User:VorangorTheDemon|VorangorTheDemon]] 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
***A family tragedy is in no way encyclopedic, it belongs in an article. And Paris Hilton's prison time is also an event that probably equals this one in notablility, but would you mind explaining to me why an article hasn't been started on it if one on this event has? You're being inconsistent. There's nothing encylopedic or notable about any family involved in murder-suicide. It belongs in the involved subject's article, or perhaps as a reference if there is an article on murder suicide. 90% of the stuff in the article for this event has no encyclopedic value, Wiki encyclopedic or paper encyclopedic. And a consensus was already done, and the opposal of the creation of this article won. It should be removed. --[[User:VorangorTheDemon|VorangorTheDemon]] 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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****I'd be quite strongly in favor of having an article on Paris' legal troubles. Notability is measured by the attention something receives or the importance people attached to it. I don't care if it's a jail sentence, a murder-suicide, or somebody stubbing his toe—I'm only interested in whether the sources indicate a sufficiently high level of attention from other people. Note also that this AfD enjoys broader participation than the article talk and therefore is more representative of community views. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 23:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
****I'd be quite strongly in favor of having an article on Paris' legal troubles. Notability is measured by the attention something receives or the importance people attached to it. I don't care if it's a jail sentence, a murder-suicide, or somebody stubbing his toe—I'm only interested in whether the sources indicate a sufficiently high level of attention from other people. Note also that this AfD enjoys broader participation than the article talk and therefore is more representative of community views. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 23:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*****An article about Paris' legal troubles? How is that encyclopedic? To be honest, who is really going to care a few months from now? I suppose now you want to write one about Mel Gibson's legal troubles, Britney Spears' breakdown and shaving her head, and the Duff Lohan catfights? Those also garnered media attention, but are perfectly fine without articles dissecting a small part of their lives. If this is so important, where's the separate article for [[Bob Woodruff]] and his recovery after being attacked in Iraq? That captured America's attention as well. You're inconsistent and seem to want to jump on something the minute it happens. You really need to sit down and ask yourself "Is anyone going to care about this a year from now?" or in this case, "Will anyone remember Chris Benoit's name in 2008?" Other than the informed wrestling fan, the answer is a loud and resounding "No". [[User:Jezebel Parks|Jezebel Parks]] 07:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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⚫ | *'''Merge''' to [[Chris Benoit]]. Classic case of recentism. If the article is kept, I suggest a name change to [[Benoit family murder-suicide]] or something like that. [[User:Pablothegreat85|< |
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******It doesn't matter one bit whether the general population will care or not care at any given time in the future. We should be recording things that are considered important now or were considered important in the past. It can be taken for granted that it will be useful to at least ''somebody'' in the future. I think the "big picture" deletionist perspective on notability is completely inappropriate for Wikipedia, a holdover view influenced by paper encyclopedias, and counter-productive to our goal of providing information. I assure you I am not inconsistent in the least and I am in favor of having an article on anything that receives a sufficient degree of attention combined with a sufficient degree of available detail to fill up an independent article. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 08:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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⚫ | *'''Merge''' to [[Chris Benoit]]. Classic case of recentism. If the article is kept, I suggest a name change to [[Benoit family murder-suicide]] or something like that. [[User:Pablothegreat85|<span style="color:green;">Pablo</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Pablothegreat85|<span style="color:red;">Talk</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Pablothegreat85|<span style="color:blue;">Contributions</span>]]</small> 05:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Merge.''' I think it should be shortend (a bit) and merged with [[Chris Benoit]] as a new section. --[[User:130.89.166.51]] |
*'''Merge.''' I think it should be shortend (a bit) and merged with [[Chris Benoit]] as a new section. --[[User:130.89.166.51]] |
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*'''Strong Keep''' too large to merge into the Benoit article, noteworthy --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|<sup>[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]</sup> 19:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Strong Keep''' too large to merge into the Benoit article, noteworthy --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|<sup>[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]</sup> 19:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:A president who had intense dealings with the Cold War and who's assassination was and is still being reported all over, who spawned years and years of conspiracy theories, is FAR more notable than a wrestler on a scripted TV program. Do you really think that 10 years from now, people will say "oh, i remember where i was when they announced the Chris Benoit died."??? chris benoits deathh was reported for a few weeks. tops. i havent seen a news story in the paper about it in awhile. JFK was reported on for much longer, plus has thousands of books written on the subject. JFK was world famous BEFORE he was assassinated. plus there's ridiculous controversy about his assassination. Chris Benoit's case is fairly clean cut. He only became a household name after he killed himself. and in a few weeks, if you mention it to an average person who doesnt watch wrestling, they probably won't remember his name. [[User:DurinsBane87|DurinsBane87]] 00:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
:A president who had intense dealings with the Cold War and who's assassination was and is still being reported all over, who spawned years and years of conspiracy theories, is FAR more notable than a wrestler on a scripted TV program. Do you really think that 10 years from now, people will say "oh, i remember where i was when they announced the Chris Benoit died."??? chris benoits deathh was reported for a few weeks. tops. i havent seen a news story in the paper about it in awhile. JFK was reported on for much longer, plus has thousands of books written on the subject. JFK was world famous BEFORE he was assassinated. plus there's ridiculous controversy about his assassination. Chris Benoit's case is fairly clean cut. He only became a household name after he killed himself. and in a few weeks, if you mention it to an average person who doesnt watch wrestling, they probably won't remember his name. [[User:DurinsBane87|DurinsBane87]] 00:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Merge''' It was fine as it was in the Chris Benoit article. If it gets too long like people have said, then shorten it. There were ceratinly parts of it that didn't need to be there before the second article was made. [[User:Arrowny|Arrowny]] 00:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Merge''' It was fine as it was in the Chris Benoit article. If it gets too long like people have said, then shorten it. There were ceratinly parts of it that didn't need to be there before the second article was made. [[User:Arrowny|Arrowny]] 00:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''', I don't care if it stays or goes, but if it stays, it must be renamed. A less melodramatic title, please. '''· < |
*'''Comment''', I don't care if it stays or goes, but if it stays, it must be renamed. A less melodramatic title, please. '''· [[User:Jersyko|<span style="color:#70A070;">jersyko</span>]]''' ''[[User talk:Jersyko|<span style="color:#007BA7; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]]'' 03:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* '''Merge''' to [[Chris Benoit]]. It is already covered in the main article. There is no article of the death of, say, [[Sherri Martel]]. [[User:Bibliotheque|<code>biblio</code>]][[Special:Emailuser/Bibliotheque|<code>theque</code>]] [[User talk:Bibliotheque|< |
* '''Merge''' to [[Chris Benoit]]. It is already covered in the main article. There is no article of the death of, say, [[Sherri Martel]]. [[User:Bibliotheque|<code>biblio</code>]][[Special:Emailuser/Bibliotheque|<code>theque</code>]] [[User talk:Bibliotheque|<span style="color:red; font-family:'stencil';">(Talk)</span>]] 03:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**There's a big difference between a highly public double murder-suicide and a death of indeterminate cause that isn't foul play. [[User:Mystery Meat|Mystery Meat]] 03:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
**There's a big difference between a highly public double murder-suicide and a death of indeterminate cause that isn't foul play. [[User:Mystery Meat|Mystery Meat]] 03:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - The vast and I mean vast majority of hits on the [[Chris Benoit]] page are people looking for this article's details. The level of detail here, is *not* covered in the main article, and if it were it would probably get cut down by cutter-downers. It's much better to have it a seperate article to satisfy all sides. [[User:Wjhonson|Wjhonson]] 06:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' - The vast and I mean vast majority of hits on the [[Chris Benoit]] page are people looking for this article's details. The level of detail here, is *not* covered in the main article, and if it were it would probably get cut down by cutter-downers. It's much better to have it a seperate article to satisfy all sides. [[User:Wjhonson|Wjhonson]] 06:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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***He probably means that it isn't a particularly important event in Chris Benoit's life. [[User:Christopher Connor|Christopher Connor]] 11:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
***He probably means that it isn't a particularly important event in Chris Benoit's life. [[User:Christopher Connor|Christopher Connor]] 11:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Merge, Redirect, Lock''' - The article should never have been created. A separate article is not warranted. It is not notable enough. [[User talk:The Hybrid|The Hybrid]] 12:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Merge, Redirect, Lock''' - The article should never have been created. A separate article is not warranted. It is not notable enough. [[User talk:The Hybrid|The Hybrid]] 12:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*Merge, Redirect & Lock''' echoing the above. Another example of news conflation, in violation of [[WP:NOT]]. Send it back to the Benoit page where it belongs. [[User:Eusebeus|Eusebeus]] 12:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Merge, Redirect & Lock''' echoing the above. Another example of news conflation, in violation of [[WP:NOT]]. Send it back to the Benoit page where it belongs. [[User:Eusebeus|Eusebeus]] 12:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - I agree that this is a major event that should be covered extensively. And Benoit's life before this happened should be covered in his main biography. He shouldn't only be remembered for this event, but the event needs to be covered...hence we need two seperate articles. --[[User:SGT Tex|<b><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#0000DD">SGT]] [[User talk:SGT Tex|< |
*'''Keep''' - I agree that this is a major event that should be covered extensively. And Benoit's life before this happened should be covered in his main biography. He shouldn't only be remembered for this event, but the event needs to be covered...hence we need two seperate articles. --[[User:SGT Tex|<b><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#0000DD">SGT</font></b>]] [[User talk:SGT Tex|<span style="font-family:'Monotype Corsiva'; color:FF2400;">Tex</span>]] 14:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - Just because. |
*'''Keep''' - Just because. |
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** This is [[WP:JUSTAVOTE|not a ballot]]. --''[[User:Wwwwolf|wwwwolf]]'' ([[User talk:Wwwwolf|barks]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wwwwolf|growls]]) 09:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - The circumstances of the events are large and complex enough that to present them properly in Wikipedia requires a separate entry since Chris Benoit already had a notable life and career before the murders took place. In the interest of keeping an accurate entry on the events in Wikipedia without making the Chris Benoit article far too long, it needs a separate page.[[User:Rebochan|Rebochan]] 16:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' - The circumstances of the events are large and complex enough that to present them properly in Wikipedia requires a separate entry since Chris Benoit already had a notable life and career before the murders took place. In the interest of keeping an accurate entry on the events in Wikipedia without making the Chris Benoit article far too long, it needs a separate page.[[User:Rebochan|Rebochan]] 16:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - [[James Kim]] doesn't (and shouldn't) have a Kim family tragedy article, so why should this guy? Plus, which news article even calls it Benoit family tragedy? The very title violates [[WP:NEO]] and [[WP:MADEUP]] [[User:Misterdiscreet|Misterdiscreet]] 18:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Delete''' - [[James Kim]] doesn't (and shouldn't) have a Kim family tragedy article, so why should this guy? Plus, which news article even calls it Benoit family tragedy? The very title violates [[WP:NEO]] and [[WP:MADEUP]] [[User:Misterdiscreet|Misterdiscreet]] 18:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**I nominate you to write the article on Kim's ordeal and his demise. Seriously, "other people haven't written some other article yet, so delete this one" is the worst deletionist argument ever. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 05:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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***why would i write an article on a subject i already said shouldn't have one? that makes about as much since as me telling you to delete James Kim, even though you've already suggested it be expanded into another article [[User:Misterdiscreet|Misterdiscreet]] 15:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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****It was an ironic way of making the point that the reason that there's no article on that subject is at least as likely to be because no one bothered to write one (or was interested enough) as it is to be because of some big deletionist consensus on the part of its editors. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 21:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''A great big reminder to everyone:''' This discussion is half-pointless (basically, we're on the wrong forum and we don't have a "Requested Merges Or Else" forum). At this point, it's abundantly clear that ''the topic'' is worth discussing. Before commenting, please ''read'' the nomination: the big question, as ''always'' in AfDs is, ''do we need this article?'' In other words - '''should this particular death be discussed in main article, or in an article of its own; in most cases, such things are discussed in main articles?''' So please, don't ''just'' say "keep" because you think the topic is notable - ''we already know it is''. It looks to me that we're ending into a dead end in regards to whether or not this needs to be merged because we get distracted by ''this'' issue. --''[[User:Wwwwolf|wwwwolf]]'' ([[User talk:Wwwwolf|barks]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wwwwolf|growls]]) 09:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**As I pointed out above, notability is in fact a key issue here. We can be fairly certain that, if a merge takes place, many of the details will be trimmed out to save space, so the only way to have comprehensive coverage of the subject is to have an independent article. So, is the subject notable enough to warrant comprehensive coverage? [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 10:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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***Yes. Let me make myself more clear: The ''existence'' of notability is irrelevant because the answer is obviously positive; the ''amount'' of notability is in doubt. The question isn't "is this notable", but "how notable is it". It would be ''terribly'' nice to, ''for once'', get a straight answer to a merge-or-not question in AfD; it rarely happens, because people are scared that someone says "delete every reference of this incident from Wikipedia", which is not - and never has been - the point of AfD. --''[[User:Wwwwolf|wwwwolf]]'' ([[User talk:Wwwwolf|barks]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wwwwolf|growls]]) 10:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete/merge'''. Doesn't justify its own article especially with this name. [[User:Salathi|Salathi]] 11:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' I don't quite understand where all of these people are coming from, possibly some message board with the idea that this is a "vote" opposed to consensus decision. I don't even believe there is a consensus, it seems that it's about cut 50/50 for merge/delete/redirect vs keep. I don't think we'll get much out of this any longer, It should probably be kept until a consensus can be formed. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<span style="color:blue;">Wikidudeman</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 15:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Personally, I just happened on the article and thought the title was inappropriate. It may be that (as with me) people saw Wikipedia in the media and decided to visit the page out of curiosity. I wouldn't have read more than a sentence or two about the event if it didn't involve WP. But yeah, it looks pretty deadlocked. [[User:Salathi|Salathi]] 01:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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====Section 3==== |
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'''Keep''': The artcle is too long to be merged.--'''[[user:Hornetman16|<span style="color:red;">Hornet</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue;">man</span>[[user_talk:Hornetman16|<span style="color:#CCCCCC;">16</span>]]''' 20:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*It's longer than it needs to be anyway. So it can be shortened and merged. [[User:Arrowny|Arrowny]] 03:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**It's only longer than it needs to be if you're not looking for the information. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 05:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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'''Delete/Merge''' The title is also OR, as I haven't seen any common name given to the case by the media, except maybe for "Chris Benoit Double Murder/Suicide" -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 19:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**Good argument to rename, bad argument to merge. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 19:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. The Benoit incident has become larger than just Benoit and his family. This article should be kept and expanded with a full recap of the events stemming from the murder-suicide - Debra Marshall's comments on domestic abuse, Marc Mero, Steve Blackman and Terri Runnels's comments on drug and steroid abuse, Penny Durham's comments on the economic problems faced by wrestlers, as well as the WWE's reactions, the prosecution of Benoit's doctor and any ensuing policy changes or legislation. There's no way the Chris Benoit and Nancy Daus articles can do justice to all the details involved and still adequately cover the lives and careers of their subject matter. [[User:McPhail|McPhail]] 20:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**Exactly, there's basically a no-consensus, and I'm planning to do a sort of rewrite with the article and include wrestler's opinions in there. This article (if kept long-term) could easilly get GA status with good sources, look where [[Virginia Tech massacre]] is now (yes it did have more coverage than Benoit), but there's still more to come out of this. [[User:Davnel03|Davnel03]] 20:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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***I agree.--'''[[user:Hornetman16|<span style="color:red;">Hornet</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue;">man</span>[[user_talk:Hornetman16|<span style="color:#CCCCCC;">16</span>]]''' 00:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Keep''' Not sure what the deal is with 3 section subheadings, but I think this event's occurrence in the signpost is enough in itself. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-07-02/Wrestler death]], and the 10 references on that page if you need more convincing if notability. [[User_talk:Giggy|<span style="color:green;">'''Giggy'''</span>]] <sub>[[User:Giggy|<span style="color:red;">U</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User:Giggy/Contribs|<span style="color:orange;">C</span>]]</sup>[[WP:FING|P]] 03:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*After reading though both the Benoit and this articles, and realizing that this is one of, if not the top murder story in 2007, let alone pro wrestling, I vote to '''STRONG KEEP''' as is. I also weight my decision on all of the confirmed information, details and stories. --[[User:Raderick|Raderick]] 07:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC) |
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**Why do people look at wrestling as a breeding ground for seroids? Wrestling is about the Entertainment of the fans and getss involved in Charity work. What happened with Benoit was just a Horrible occurence that happened to include a WWE Wrestler. Nothing more.--'''[[user:Hornetman16|<span style="color:red;">Hornet</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue;">man</span>[[user_talk:Hornetman16|<span style="color:#CCCCCC;">16</span>]]''' 07:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div> |