Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ARFCOM: Difference between revisions

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 06:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ARFCOM

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While the article does contain an assertion of notability a la media coverage, I sure can't find a thing on Google News that isn't just spamming of newspaper sites by forum members. Not speedyable, due to the assertion, but I nonetheless recommend that this be deleted. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To the contrary, there is indeed significant coverage on credible media sources. For example, archived from the NY Times website, here [1] is an article about the Send A Brick campaign. Here [2] is an article from the Washington Post. Opensourcelinuxm 06:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Neither of these articles even mention the word "ARFCOM", so I'm not really sure how they're relevant. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete. Agree with Seraphimblade. Send-a-Brick might be notable in its own right but this subject fails WP:V and WP:RS. Dbromage [Talk] 06:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment OK, since you both are clearly very well-versed in the rules of Wikipedia and I'm not, can you tell me why other, less significant websites like Rotten.com and SomethingAwful.com have Wiki pages? They haven't done half of what the ARFCOM membership has done in terms of real-world achievements but they have big, long-standing Wiki pages. Why? What needs to be done to the ARFCOM page to make it acceptable? Opensourcelinuxm 06:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If ARFCOM has done something notable, then cite reliable third party sources backing up that claim. Dbromage [Talk] 06:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thank you Dbromage but you clearly misunderstood my comment. I wasn't trying to whine about the fact that other websites have articles; I was sincerely, seriously, and frankly inquiring: What do their wiki pages have that ARFCOM's wiki doesn't that enables them to stay while causing ARFCOM to become a candidate for deletion? Can you please answer the question? Opensourcelinuxm 06:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment To provide a more detailed answer, what we require for an article is a significant amount of nontrivial coverage of the article subject by reliable sources (newspapers, magazines, scholarly papers, generally sources which are widely regarded as reliable and undergo editorial control, fact checking, or peer review). In this case, the sources you cite might assert some notability for the Send-a-Brick campaign, but they don't even mention ARFCOM, so they cannot be used as a source regarding ARFCOM—they don't directly state that they're speaking about it, and inferring that they're indirectly speaking about it would be original research, which we do not allow. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Something Awful has 22 citations from reliable sources. Rotten Tomatoes has a very high Alexa ranking and is cited weekly in the Toronto Star. Please read WP:V and WP:RS. Dbromage [Talk] 06:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Understood. I don't think you'll be finding any media references to ARFCOM; throughout the duration of the Send-A-Brick campaign the user base was careful to keep the campaign's place of origin a secret for several reasons. If that is what is necessary in order to keep the article from deletion, it seems as if it'll have to be deleted. :( Opensourcelinuxm 06:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. In that case the claim fails verifiability. None of the citations describe any link between AR15.com and Send-A-Brick. Dbromage [Talk] 06:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it Right. Thank you both for your consideration; I'm going to agree that it should be deleted.Opensourcelinuxm 07:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC) — Opensourcelinuxm (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Delete Nice site for black rifles, but I could find nothing about ar15.com or arfcom at Google News or at Proquest. They kept perhaps TOO LOW a profile in the Send a Brick campaign, quite unlike the NRA when they go to the defense of gun ownership. Moral of the story: stealthy publicity campaigns do not generate publicity, and independent second party news coverage is what is needed to justify an article here. Try again later. Edison 13:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per above but I do want to say bravo to Opensourcelinuxm for respecting & participating in the process. Stick around- Wikipedia needs that kind of attitude. --mordicai. 22:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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-===[[ARFCOM]]===
+:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.  ''
-{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|W}}
+<!--Template:Afd top
+Note:  If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links in order to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]].  When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. -->
+The result was '''delete'''. — [[User:TKD|TKD]]::'''[[User talk:TKD|Talk]]''' 06:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
+===[[ARFCOM]]===
+{{not a ballot}}
 :{{la|ARFCOM}} – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ARFCOM|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 August 13#{{anchorencode:ARFCOM}}|View log]])</noinclude>
 While the article does contain an assertion of notability a la media coverage, I sure can't find a thing on Google News that isn't just spamming of newspaper sites by forum members. Not speedyable, due to the assertion, but I nonetheless recommend that this be '''deleted'''. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 06:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
-To the contrary, there is indeed coverage on credible media sources. For example, archived from the NY Times website, here [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/31/washington/31immig.html?ei=5090&en=cbdd13609338ba51&ex=1306728000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1186986313-hT/dL+cFLg3Xb9g3Yyc/sA] is an article about the Send A Brick campaign. [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] 06:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*To the contrary, there is indeed significant coverage on credible media sources. For example, archived from the NY Times website, here [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/31/washington/31immig.html?ei=5090&en=cbdd13609338ba51&ex=1306728000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1186986313-hT/dL+cFLg3Xb9g3Yyc/sA] is an article about the Send A Brick campaign. Here [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/02/AR2006050201789.html] is an article from the Washington Post. [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] 06:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*:'''Comment''' Neither of these articles even mention the word "ARFCOM", so I'm not really sure how they're relevant. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 06:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Strong delete'''. Agree with Seraphimblade. Send-a-Brick might be notable in its own right but ''this'' subject fails [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]]. <span style="border:1px solid #800000;">[[User:Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;"><b>Dbromage</b></span>]][[User_talk: Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;">&nbsp;[Talk]</span>]]</span> 06:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Comment''' OK, since you both are clearly very well-versed in the rules of Wikipedia and I'm not, can you tell me why other, less significant websites like Rotten.com and SomethingAwful.com have Wiki pages? They haven't done half of what the ARFCOM membership has done in terms of real-world achievements but they have big, long-standing Wiki pages. Why? What needs to be done to the ARFCOM page to make it acceptable? [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] 06:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+:*'''Comment'''. Please read [[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS]]. If ARFCOM has done something notable, then cite reliable third party sources backing up that claim. <span style="border:1px solid #800000;">[[User:Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;"><b>Dbromage</b></span>]][[User_talk: Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;">&nbsp;[Talk]</span>]]</span> 06:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Comment''' Thank you Dbromage but you clearly misunderstood my comment. I wasn't trying to whine about the fact that other websites have articles; I was sincerely, seriously, and frankly inquiring: What do their wiki pages have that ARFCOM's wiki doesn't that enables them to stay while causing ARFCOM to become a candidate for deletion? Can you please answer the question? [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] 06:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+**'''Comment''' To provide a more detailed answer, what we require for an article is a significant amount of nontrivial coverage of the article subject by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] (newspapers, magazines, scholarly papers, generally sources which are widely regarded as reliable and undergo editorial control, fact checking, or peer review). In this case, the sources you cite might assert some notability for the Send-a-Brick campaign, but they don't even mention ARFCOM, so they cannot be used as a source regarding ARFCOM&mdash;they don't directly state that they're speaking about it, and inferring that they're indirectly speaking about it would be [[WP:NOR|original research]], which we do not allow. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 06:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+:*'''Comment'''. [[Something Awful]] has 22 citations from [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. [[Rotten Tomatoes]] has a very high Alexa ranking and is cited weekly in the ''Toronto Star''. Please read [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]]. <span style="border:1px solid #800000;">[[User:Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;"><b>Dbromage</b></span>]][[User_talk: Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;">&nbsp;[Talk]</span>]]</span> 06:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Comment''' Understood. I don't think you'll be finding any media references to ARFCOM; throughout the duration of the Send-A-Brick campaign the user base was careful to keep the campaign's place of origin a secret for several reasons. If that is what is necessary in order to keep the article from deletion, it seems as if it'll have to be '''deleted'''. :( [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] 06:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+:*'''Comment'''. In that case the claim fails [[WP:V|verifiability]]. None of the citations describe any link between AR15.com and Send-A-Brick. <span style="border:1px solid #800000;">[[User:Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;"><b>Dbromage</b></span>]][[User_talk: Dbromage|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;background:#800000;">&nbsp;[Talk]</span>]]</span> 06:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Delete it''' Right. Thank you both for your consideration; I'm going to agree that it should be deleted.[[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] 07:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC) <small>— [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] ([[User talk:Opensourcelinuxm|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Opensourcelinuxm|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>
+*'''Delete''' Nice site for black rifles, but I could find nothing about ar15.com or arfcom at Google News or at Proquest. They kept perhaps TOO LOW a profile in the Send a Brick campaign, quite unlike the NRA when they go to the defense of gun ownership. Moral of the story: stealthy publicity campaigns do not generate publicity, and independent second party news coverage is what is needed to justify an article here. Try again later. [[User:Edison|Edison]] 13:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Delete''' as per above but I do want to say bravo to [[User:Opensourcelinuxm|Opensourcelinuxm]] for respecting & participating in the process.  Stick around- Wikipedia needs that kind of attitude.  --[[User:Mordicai|mordicai.]] 22:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>