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<div class="toccolours" style="float: right;"><small>[[#footer|Skip to the bottom]]</small></div>
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<div style="color:black; background-color:#fff; padding:1em; margin-bottom:1.5em; border: 2px solid #f06; text-align: center; clear:all;"><div style="font-size:150%;">'''For general questions, use the Reference Desks'''</div>Please post general questions on the relevant [[Wikipedia:reference desk|reference desk]].<br>This page is for discussion of the Reference Desks only. Please don't post comments here that don't relate to the Reference Desks. Other material may be moved.</div>
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<div style="color:black; background-color:#fff; padding:1em; margin-bottom:1.5em; border: 2px solid #f06; text-align: center; clear:all;"><div style="font-size:150%;">'''For guideline issues and policy proposals, use the relevant subpage'''</div>The guidelines for the Reference desk are at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines]].<br>Please discuss issues concerning the guidelines on its associated talk page, [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines]], and more general proposals at the [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)|Village Pump]].
{{Wikipedia:Reference desk/talk header}}
<center>'''Off topic discussions may be moved.'''</center></div>
{{archive box | auto=yes |search=yes |collapsed=yes| age=7 |bot=lowercase sigmabot III |
<div style="color:black; background-color:#fff; padding:1em; margin-bottom:1.5em; border: 2px solid #f06; text-align: center; clear:all;"><div style="font-size:150%;">'''For discussion about professional advice on the desks, use the relevant subpage'''</div>Please discuss professional advice on [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Professional advice]].<br>Please don't post comments here that are about professional advice.</div>
{| class="infobox" width="315px"
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!align="center" colspan="2"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br/>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives <small>(dates are close, not exact)</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 1|<small>(1) Jan 1-Sep 15 '04</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 2|<small>(2) Feb 1-Nov 13 '04</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 3|<small>(3) Mar 20-Aug 17 '05</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 4|<small>(4) Aug 19-Aug 30 '05</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 5|<small>(5) Sep 4-Sep 18 '05</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 6|<small>(6) Sep 25-Dec 3 '05</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 7|<small>(7) Dec 10-Jan 9 '06</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 8|<small>(8) Jan 9-Jan 19 '06</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 9|<small>(9) Jan 19-Mar 27 '06</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 10|<small>(10) Apr 2-Aug 2 '06</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 11|<small>(11) Aug 9-Sep 20 '06</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 12|<small>(12) Sep 21-Oct 22 '06</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 14|<small>(14) Nov 1-Nov 11 '06</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 20|<small>(20) Dec 19-Dec 31 '06</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 21|<small>(21) Jan 01-Jan 09 '07</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 22|<small>(22) Jan 09-Jan 18 '07</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 24|<small>(24) Jan 31-Feb 13 '07</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 28|<small>(28) Apr 01-Apr 10 '07</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 29|<small>(29) Apr 10-Apr 21 '07</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 30|<small>(30) Apr 21-Apr 29 '07</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 31|<small>(31) Apr 30-May 8 '07</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 40|<small>(40) Dec 8 '07-Dec 23 '07</small>]]
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|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 41|<small>(41) Dec 26-Dec 31 '07</small>]]
|[[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 42|<small>(42) Jan 1-Mmm dd '08</small>]]


{{center|'''[[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines|RD Guidelines]]'''
{{flatlist|
* [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines/Archive 1|1]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines/Archive 2|2]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines/Archive 3|3]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines/Archive 4|4]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines/Archive 5|5]]
}}
}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|maxarchivesize = 256K
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== Unreadable in dark mode ==
|}<!--Template:Archivebox-->


Unfortunately I have no solutions to offer, but [[Wikipedia:Reference desk]] is nearly unreadable in the new dark mode - the very light grey text in the white boxes just vanishes. Thought I'd at least note it here in case anyone knows of a fix. [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.8|57.140.16.8]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.8|talk]]) 15:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
__TOC__
:It all looks normal to me. Where is this "dark mode" option you're talking about? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
::See [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_214#Dark_mode_for_logged-in_users_on_desktop_coming_this_week!]] @[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] [[Special:Contributions/97.113.14.140|97.113.14.140]] ([[User talk:97.113.14.140|talk]]) 03:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
:::It looks like that's where complaints about this thing should be taken. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 03:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
::::I have no complaints about the tool; seems to be working as intended, but this page isn't set up to render usefully using it. But hey ho. [[Special:Contributions/97.113.14.140|97.113.14.140]] ([[User talk:97.113.14.140|talk]]) 12:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::I think you should take this question to the Village Pump. Either that, or don't user Dark Mode. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 03:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::: Good advice. I tried it once. I didn't like it. <small> (Sex, that is. I also didn't like being reasonable, or the new Wikipedia dark mode.)</small> -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 22:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
:Thank you [[user:Jdlrobson|Jdlrobson]] and [[user:Izno|Izno]]! Looks great now. [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.8|57.140.16.8]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.8|talk]]) 13:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
::Great! <span style="background:white; color: black;">🐸</span>&nbsp;[[User:Jdlrobson|Jdlrobson]] ([[User talk:Jdlrobson|talk]]) 08:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)


== Humanities and header hatnote ==
==Unanswerable questions==
Like [[WP:RD/M#How to be a YouTuber's friend when s/he denied me to be her/his friend on YouTube?|this one]] for instance. People should know better; either that or it’s very subtle trolling. Tagishsimons was admirably patient, but it would probably be okay just to say “Sorry there’s nothing we can do about that.” --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 03:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
:I think both are acceptable approaches. We usually know nothing about the "people" asking the question (age, experience, cultural background, ...), and one thing I like about the reference desk is that it celebrates the assumption of good faith by attempting to give useful answers to almost every type of question, including the unanswerable and unthinkable ones. I don't know whether people should or could know better, and I also applaud Tagishsimon for giving patient and potentially educative replies. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 10:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
::That’s true. We have no idea who people are in the “real world.” [[Kudos]] to Tagishsimon. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 22:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
:::I also agree Tagishsimon's patience was admirable but I think we must keep in mind that, what once would constitute an acceptable question, such as asking for the height of the K2, nowadays can be answered with a simple Google query. Consequently the only questions that can be asked here are, at least, ''hard''. I frankly believe those people aren't trolling (or at least, most of them). My opinion is that we should tolerate the existence of those almost unanswerable questions in the RD, but if we can't help, we should just leave them unanswered, which I think would be the most effective way to convince the questioner that we cannot offer any help and, additionally, protects us from troll-intended questions. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 17:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


Last week, [[User:Mod creator|Mod creator]] decided to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1239039867 add a hatnote] to the humanities desk, and then [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] decided to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1239763053 remove it] a few days later. Here's the content:
==$20,000 to [[Murder|"off"]] someone's husband==
There’s a question on the desk now under the title [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Is this illegal?|Is this illegal?]]. Should we take it down? I’ve informed the OP that we can’t help him, however Anonymous feels this is a hypothetical question. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 07:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:Seems fine to me to treat it as a hypothetical. I think there is a distinction between legal or medical ''advice'', and legal or medical ''questions''. I'm happy that this falls into the latter category, in that we can see that the situation involves a conspiracy to murder illegality, but also an interesting contract law issue (and, were we to put real effort into it, a discussion of whether fraud was involved, and if not, why not). What little I remember of being taught contract law was that hypothetical scenarios were described, and our job was to work out the statute law and common law cases which would guide us to a likely resolution were the matter to come to court. This doesn't seem very much different to that. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] [[User_talk:Tagishsimon|(talk)]] 12:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::Yeeessss, it’s an interesting question, but the questioner uses the [[Grammatical person|first person]], (“Have I committed an illegal act under the eyes of the law?”) which kind of goes against everything we’ve been hearing on the desk recently. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t particularly think this question is a problem, but if we’re leaving some “legal advice questions” and not others we need some criteria to distinguish. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 21:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
:::The conditional clause marks the question as hypothetical, no matter whether the subject is "I", "you", "one", "someone", or "Joe Shmoe". ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 21:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Okay, That’s makes sense. Good thing I wasn’t bold this time! It’s turned into an interesting topic. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 22:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


{{redirect|WP:RD/H|the template header used in all areas of the [[WP:REFD|reference desks]]|WP:Reference desk/Header}}
:It may be lack of sleep, but I was certain that the question initially was "A woman asked..." and was later changed to "If a woman asked...". In the first form, it was clearly a request for advice. In the second form, it was hypothetical. -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 14:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
::The first form never existed. The question started with the word "If ..." [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=prev&oldid=181509100 from the get-go]. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 17:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


Neither adding nor removing was discussed, and lack of discussion was [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1239763267 one reason given for its removal]. So, let's start a discussion...is this header a good idea? I'm leaning toward "no", thanks to the reasons given for removal, but I can understand the reasoning for adding. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
== Carotid question OK or no? ==
:Agree with the removal, there is no reason to have that at the top of the page. --[[User:Viennese Waltz|Viennese Waltz]] 14:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
:No; the template is way further down the ladder. While pageviews are not infalliable, [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=this-year&pages=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities|Wikipedia:Reference_desk/header the comparison] – on a logarithmic scale, you'll note – is pretty damning. If someone is looking for [[WP:Reference desk/header]] they probably know how to find it. [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)


== Bots ==
Is [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Cutting_the_carotid_artery|this question]] asking for medical advice or not? I answered it reasoning that it was about first aid, which can be administered by anyone. --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 02:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
:I’m not sure. It’s a borderline case because, although it directly seeks advice, it is unquestionably hypothetical. My gut reaction is that it’s okay as long as we redirect him to sources. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 05:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


Do the bots really edit pages or something else because I saw from the citation bot literally remove and replace the same information with the same words [[User:Avyanna.Owam|Avyanna.Owam]] ([[User talk:Avyanna.Owam|talk]]) 11:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
:It's an obvious hypothetical case, on a topic related to medicine (first aid, in this instance). It's clear that no one is standing there with blood spurting out of his severed carotid artery, typing madly into Wikipedia and waiting several days for a response. (Of course, even if that ''were'' really happening, by the time the first response had been posted it would have been back to being a hypothetical question.) My instinct is that general discussions about first aid practice are okay &ndash; with reference to sources ''strongly'' encouraged, and comments ''without'' sources identified as such &ndash; but that questions related to treatment of ''actual'' injuries should be referred to qualified personnel.
:Where did you see that? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 07:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)


== Fake Desi media content querant ==
:(Aside from all the other good [[User:TenOfAllTrades/Why not?|reasons not to give such advice]], we can't guarantee that the poster has even reported his injury to us accurately and specifically. The answer to the seemingly-simple "''I cut my finger; what should I do?''" depends on answers to a lot of other questions. Is it a paper cut? Animal bite? Broken glass? Rusty chainsaw? Shallow cut? Deep cut? Is your finger still attached? Clean edges? Jagged cut? Is there material left in the wound? Is there material ''you don't know about'' in the wound? ''What is it that's making you nervous about treating a simple 'cut' without advice and assistance?''


Looks like the Californian troll who pretends to be a poorly comprehending fan of Indian subcontinent media, with poor English, has now got themself an account. (If I was sufficiently motivated, I'd link the thread several months back where they crowed in perfect English about successfully fooling us.)
:As well, in the hypothetical case the OP isn't under time pressure and isn't likely to go and act on the first thing someone tells him. He can wait for multiple comments, read through them, check the references. If ever faced with a real injury in the future, he still has to evaluate the situation for himself. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 15:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Should something be done about this? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.211.243|94.1.211.243]] ([[User talk:94.1.211.243|talk]]) 07:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

:Not sure I follow. The last couple of times they've posted on Ents from an IP address, it's geolocated to India. --[[User:Viennese Waltz|Viennese Waltz]] 09:05, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
==Removal of a reply==
::The issue has been sorted, the account has been indefinitely blocked. --[[User:Viennese Waltz|Viennese Waltz]] 13:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
I removed [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FHumanities&diff=182683046&oldid=182679854 this] reply (and its associated responses) because it left a bad taste in my mouth. I've never deleted anything from the RD before so I hope I wasn't out of line. Thanks. --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] [[User talk:Richardrj|<sup>talk </sup>]][[Special:Emailuser/Richardrj|<sup>email</sup>]] 06:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
: Good call, I think. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 08:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
::Probably a bad idea. Comments in the Ref.Desk are not censored. ~If you thought some answer was tasteless, you should state your opinion. [[Special:Contributions/217.168.5.50|217.168.5.50]] ([[User talk:217.168.5.50|talk]]) 14:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Comments on the ref desk ''are'' censored if they seriously violate what the community thinks is acceptable. See, for example, legal and medical advice. [[Special:Contributions/86.141.89.83|86.141.89.83]] ([[User talk:86.141.89.83|talk]]) 22:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:Yeah, there's nothing wrong with removing answers that clearly aren't useful. [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 22:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

::Okay, one, this message advocated that the OP carry out an illegal action (at least in the US). Two, this was probably intended to be a joke, but it wasn’t made clear enough and it was still in rather bad taste. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 05:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Well in this case since it was a 14 year old I agree removing it was good. On the other hand if an 18 year old male or female, particularly one who doesn't specify where they live I don't think posts should be removed simply because someone suggests prostitution particularly if the person also suggests they make sure it is legal before considering it. Prostitution is perfectly legal in some countries including some parts of the U.S. so suggesting it isn't suggesting the person break the law. Selling marijuana is of course illegal in most places and could get you the death penalty in some cases. When it isn't illegal, I don't think it's a high profit job so that one is probably inappropriate. Particularly when the person is young, I don't think we should be suggesting illegal activities even in jest. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 06:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

== who cares about edit conflicts? ==

Often I see RD responses that begin with a parenthetical note that an edit conflict had occurred. Presumably there's some point to recording this, but ... well. Enlighten me? —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 08:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
: I do it when some of the information I have provided was edit-conflicted with someone else saying much the same thing. Instead of re-editing my comment to removed the duplicate information (thereby taking more time, which can lead to another edit-conflict) I prefer to note the conflict, as explanation for why it looks like I have, in part, simply repeated what another respondent added. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 08:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
: Another case (here's a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Computing&diff=prev&oldid=182172554 recent example] is when I'm responding rather directly to something poster A has said, but then poster B inserts a response first. My response then appears below B's response, making it less obvious that my post is in fact in response to A -- and mine might appear to be a response to B, even though it has nothing to do with what B said. So the "(ec)" is an attempt to alert readers to these possibilities. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 01:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
:I always just copy my reply, hit back, hit reply again, and paste it. --[[User:Froth|<span style="color:blue;">f&nbsp;f&nbsp;r&nbsp;o</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Froth|<span style="color:blue;text-decoration:overline;">t</span>]]&nbsp;[[User:Froth|<span style="color:blue;">h</span>]] 17:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

== Unknown disorder ==

I'm going to remove [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#unknown_disorder|this question]] and its answers tomorrow unless somebody convinces me not to. --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

:Removed. In general, it's safe to cut any question that starts with "Hi there, can a psychologist or a scientist figure out what type of problem I have?" and then goes on to list symptoms. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 18:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

::[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=182993513&oldid=182973533] for reference. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 01:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

::TenOfAllTrades, thanks for also leaving a note urging the person to seek further medical help. '''In cases where a person is describing symptoms that have some similarity to the symptoms of depression it is essential that we respond to the person kindly and guide them towards other sources of help.''' --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 01:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

:::No problem. For the record, we should ''always'' respond to people kindly, and encourage them to take their requests for health advice to a more suitable venue. That usually includes their doctor, but may also include a pharmacist (for questions about medication) or a parent, guardian, trusted adult, or school nurse (for young people). Just a reminder that we should ''never'' be offering an opinion as to whether or not a poster's symptoms seem serious; that sort of estimation is fraught with risk of both [[type I and type II errors]]. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 15:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

::::You’re right of course. I just want to make sure people know that this is one of those scenarios that could potentially be a matter of [[Suicide|life and death]] for the OP. We can also direct people to a [[Crisis hotline]] btw. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 23:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

== RD header ==

Not sure how to fix it, but the main RD header is definitely a bit vandalized... [[User:Jeffjon|jeffjon]] ([[User talk:Jeffjon|talk]]) 13:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks to whoever fixed it. Where does that text reside? [[User:Jeffjon|jeffjon]] ([[User talk:Jeffjon|talk]]) 14:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

::[[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/RD_header]] is the one anyone can edit. Thanks for pointing it out. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 14:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

:::I've just semi-protected it, too&mdash;there's rarely reason for ''anyone'' to need to edit the header, let alone new and unregistered accounts. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 14:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

== Music? ==

Why is the icon of the Entertainment desk a music note but "music" is listed in the description of the Humanities desk? Seems a little inconsistent...although maybe one is for popular music and one for classical? --[[User:Zenohockey|zenohockey]] ([[User talk:Zenohockey|talk]]) 21:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, a movie camera or maybe a television would be better. Who creates these icons? --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 02:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Anyone can. [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|The otter sank]] 19:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
::That icon is [[:Image:P music.png]], created by [[he:משתמש:נעמה מ.]], who appears to have left the project. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 03:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
::How about this: [[Image:P Cinema Transparent.png|48px]]? [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 03:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:Music goes under Entertainment.. I'd say only very academic questions about music goes in Humanities --[[User:Froth|<span style="color:blue;">f&nbsp;f&nbsp;r&nbsp;o</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Froth|<span style="color:blue;text-decoration:overline;">t</span>]]&nbsp;[[User:Froth|<span style="color:blue;">h</span>]] 05:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

::To a certain extent, the Humanities/Entertainment split mirrors the (artificial and possibly false) dichotomy of [[high culture|''high'']] v [[popular culture|''popular'']] culture.
::Questions on classical music, musicology, the history of music, music sociology etc might receive better answers at the Humanities desk, while questions on band names, Britney Spears lyrics, or famous drum solos ''might'' be better served at the Entertainment desk. The same might apply to literature: Questions on [[Stendhal]] versus questions on ''[[Vampire Knight]]''. Or cinema: questions on the aesthetics of [[Italian neorealism]] v questions on who played "Mambuza Bongo Guy" in ''[[The Hot Chick]]''.
::The Entertainment desk used to feature "popular music" while "music" wasn't listed at any desk. Some users (myself included) felt that questions on classical music received better answers at the Humanities desk, so "popular music" became "popular culture" in general, and "music" was included in the humanities (along with "art"). The high/low or artsy/entertainment division is a construct, and everyone will draw the line somewhere else. A certain ambiguity and overlap remain inevitable. (And seemingly paradoxically, a question on [[popular culture studies]] belongs at the Humanities desk). ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 19:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Huh? ;-) [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 23:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

::::What I meant to say is that Algebraist's clapperboard works just fine for me. :-) ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 00:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
:::<troll> Perhaps go with a homework themed icon on the humanities desk? </troll> '''<font color="SteelBlue">[[User:Lanfear%27s_Bane|Lanfear's Bane]]</font> | <font color="DimGray">[[User_talk:Lanfear%27s_Bane|t]]</font>''' 10:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

:I '''support''' the immediate addition of the clapperboard. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 00:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

::Is there an icon of one of these [[Image:BoaterStrawHat wb.jpg|thumb|Entertainers wear these]] - preferably being waved about with a cane? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
::And some little stars floating around it. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 00:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

:&lt;not a serious suggestion&gt;Perhaps we should rename Entertainment to Popular Culture, with an icon of a [[People magazine]] cover or [[Entertainment Tonight]] logo or something.&lt;/&gt; —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 23:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

== Section added to guidelines ==

Taking account of earlier discussions, such as about a [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 40#Question removal protocol?|protocol for removing questions]], I have added a section to the RD guidelines in which I have attempted to summarize the middle ground position, which may be the next best thing after consensus (which I'm not sure we have on the issue). See [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines#When removing or redacting a posting]]. I hope the usual [[WP:wikiprocess|wikiprocess]] will suffice to make this an accepted part of the Reference desk guidelines, and discussion aimed at improving this section should talk place on the page [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines]]. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 22:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

== refreshing RD pages during discussion ==

Beware: a recent (i.e. today) change to the MediaWiki engine means that refreshing a page is less likely to show you its new content. You may have to use <code>action=purge</code>. See [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-January/035851.html this message] on the wikitech mailing list (specifically, the bit about "as a side effect we turned off 'refresh' button on your browsers"). —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 01:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
:Are there any plans to fix it? This is starting to get really annoying, especially on long pages like AN, VP, HD, and the RDs.--[[Special:Contributions/69.118.143.107|69.118.143.107]] ([[User talk:69.118.143.107|talk]]) 14:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
::[http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-January/035950.html This message] on the mailing list claims that a fix has been implemented. I need to find out when that fix is going to be made live here. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 03:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

==Best of the desks==
Is there any list on Wikipedia of the most unusual (but still well answered) questions from the reference desks? It seems like it would be a good idea to have a similar list to [[WP:UNUSUAL]]. If not I’d be happy to create one in my user space or even in Wikipedia space if it’s deemed appropriate for inclusion there. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 21:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
:Some users have collected their favs: [[User:Dweller/Dweller's Ref Desk thread of the week award]] (currently on hold, or so I gather) and [[User:DirkvdM/BestOfTheRefDesk]] (sadly, the entire user seems to be on hold). See also related discussions in the archives, for example: [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Archive_36#Highlights.3F]] and [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Archive_37#Anonymous_voting_on_RefDesk_posts]]. In short, go for it. :-) ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 22:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
::Oh god, we lost a great contributor with DirkvdM. I wondered why I hadn’t seen any answers from him lately. Anyway, thanks Sluzzelin! Those are interesting pages. I’ll start my own. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 02:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
::: I'm sure DvdM will be back. He has gone [[awol]] a few times before, but always seem to turn up again. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 19:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
::::I hope so. Maybe he just needs a breather. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 00:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

== nk'mk ; ==

I don't know if this is some secret code or not but it has this on the misc' desk just above the contents. Has it snuck into a template somewhere? '''<font color="SteelBlue">[[User:Lanfear%27s_Bane|Lanfear's Bane]]</font> | <font color="DimGray">[[User_talk:Lanfear%27s_Bane|t]]</font>''' 10:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
:It was at the top of the archive page, added [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008_January_9&diff=prev&oldid=183958566 here] in a way I do not understand by someone editing a later section of the page. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 10:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

== Deleting stuff, again ==

'cause this subject never gets old . . . Is there any reason why [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#User:Phaedriel this topic] shouldn't be removed? --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 18:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
:gets my vote. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] [[User_talk:Tagishsimon|(talk)]] 18:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

::I was about to note that Taraborn did the right thing, but WebHamster reverted the deletion. I knew I shouldn't have strayed too far from the chocolate fountain. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 19:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

:::And reverted his revert. it's all gone a bit non-stop ... --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] [[User_talk:Tagishsimon|(talk)]] 19:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

== There should be an Economics and Business desk ==

<small>Moved, or rather copied and pasted here from the Miscellaneous desk. [[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 21:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)</small>

Yes. Agree? [[Special:Contributions/128.54.77.53|128.54.77.53]] ([[User talk:128.54.77.53|talk]]) 21:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

:How many questions have there been in the last month that should have gone on such a desk, had it been in existence? &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 21:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
:Disagree.
:*As Lambian asks, is there sufficient traffic (on par with Entertainment, give or take)?
:*Are those questions not appropriately handled by the current desk(s)?
:*Is there any reason to think that a separate desk improves the handling of those questions?
:Basically, barring overwhelming traffic, I don't see much reason for splits. Math/Computer, for instance, made sense: Math said "...and Computer Science" in the description, and that was confused with "...and why doesn't my mouse driver work?", a question completely unrelated to the field of mathematics. I don't see a flood of economics questions overwhelming the intended purposes of the existing desks. &mdash; [[User talk :Lomn|Lomn]] 21:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Actually, a case could be made that the Math desk isn't really all that necessary. There are barely any questions compared to the other desks, and as it is many of them could easily fit on the Science or Computing desks, with the rest barely adding to the Misc. desk. But I'm not proposing getting rid of it. :-) --[[Special:Contributions/24.147.69.31|24.147.69.31]] ([[User talk:24.147.69.31|talk]]) 00:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

::Specialists can zero in on their interests (attracting more too) and give better (more) answers. [[Special:Contributions/132.239.90.193|132.239.90.193]] ([[User talk:132.239.90.193|talk]]) 22:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

:::We went through all this with the short lived history desk. Further desks don’t help; they just spread the available editors more thinly. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 00:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

::::If anything, we need a Dear RD desk for the Dear Abby style personal advice questions we seem to be getting lately. And perhaps also a MINI desk to get Steve back. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 01:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Support'''. A Steve Baker board of any type would be mint. '''<font color="SteelBlue">[[User:Lanfear%27s_Bane|Lanfear's Bane]]</font> | <font color="DimGray">[[User_talk:Lanfear%27s_Bane|t]]</font>''' 12:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

:Homework desk anyone? [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 02:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

::Oo, we could even have a bot to answer every post. We should definately implement a medical and legal advice desk as well. [[User:Someguy1221|Someguy1221]] ([[User talk:Someguy1221|talk]]) 06:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:::<u>Defin</u>'''i'''<u>tely</u>! ;-) [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 19:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

==Spamming==
I have (totally) removed a "question" which looks like spamming. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=184667399&oldid=184660727] --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 05:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
:Same IP who [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=183962219 ranted] about [[WP:TRUTH]] earlier, and reminiscent of fox-news-'''this-is-breaking-NOW-NOW-NOW''' guy. I'd say either makes for a good reason to quietly nip this one in the bud. &mdash; [[User talk :Lomn|Lomn]] 07:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

== History questions ==

Can someone please advise as to the proper placement of questions on History?--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 00:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:According to [[WP:RD]], they go on the humanities desk. [[User:Someguy1221|Someguy1221]] ([[User talk:Someguy1221|talk]]) 00:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 01:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

== Requesting medical advice but assuming risks ==

Can somebody ask for medical advice if he accepts and understands that we can't give professional medical advice and, consequently, the questioner should take our replies at his own risk? --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 15:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:No. What a person can do is ask for information. For example, if I have some weird growth on my finger, I could ask, "Is there a general medical term for lumps that grow on a person's finger?" Then, given the medical term, I could use Google to search for more information. However, I cannot ask "What is this growth on my finger?" -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 16:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:No. We're not (primarily) concerned about legal liability. We're trying to avoid harm to the poster, and prevent harm to Wikipedia's reputation. See also [[User:TenOfAllTrades/Why not?]]. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 17:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:Consider also that a person can (in theory) absolve us of responsibility, but many other people read the desks. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 17:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

::Okay, all that makes sense. The only thing I didn't like is the statement "''We're trying to avoid harm to the poster''". I guess it's fine to worry about other people's health, but I don't think we should implicitly assume the question asker isn't capable enough to decide for himself. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 19:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Taraborn, I can't believe that you brought this up:
::::''...if he accepts and understands that we can't give professional medical advice and, consequently, the questioner should <u>take our replies at his own risk</u>...''
:::which means what exactly? That the ''somebody'' signs a WP release form agreeing to our conditions? I don't understand this effort by some to steer into a controversy that most have agreed to steering clear. [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 20:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:::(In reply to T) Why not? We have a roughly fifty-fifty chance that the questioner's IQ is below 100, all else being equal. Factor in that he's asking for medical advice from a ragtag bunch of strangers, and the odds swing sharply in favor of the assumption. --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 20:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

::::*Spits water out nose* Wow. Harsh.. but probably right on. [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 20:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Cool, I always wanted to part of a ragtag bunch! --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 21:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::I don't think that asking advice from a "ragtag bunch of strangers" is that bad provided you use your own knowledge, common sense and experience not to take their opinions as absolute truth. Actually when you read Wikipedia you're reading what that ragtag bunch of strangers wrote, a great portion of which attends high school and will never be awarded a Nobel prize, isn't it? It is not my intention to "steer into a controversy" a generally accepted policy nor I want to perform any other evil deed, please, refrain from such accusations. I've just thought that, perhaps, if the questioner explicitly states (just a simple sentence saying so, there's no need for a complete form) that they understand Wikipedia can't give professional advice for a number of reasons but still thinks the replies they might receive may be of some use, his question could be made open for replies. I thought that because someone looking for medical advice will obtain it just by slightly rewording their question. Maybe we want to filter the below-average IQ range (those that have the highest chance of misusing the replies) by posing this small difficulty? I guess that's fine answer to my question, too. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::Your intentions seem well, well intentioned - the problem is with the implementation. The consensus seems to be that with so many other areas of contribution that are offered to us each day that we need not spend any time debating those marginal areas (medical, legal, suicide, bomb-making, trolling, spamming, etc) that come our way. I for one am in complete agreement with this consensus. If you '''really''' feel a need to contribute a response to those inquiries then you do have the option to do so privately through emails. I really do believe that this has been sufficiently discussed here that exploring yet another corner of the envelope is not going to be productive but, that's just me. ;-) [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 23:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::FWIW, I'm with [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]]. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 23:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::My opinion, that I seriously doubt anyone with more than three brain cells agrees with, is that an intelligent person may come here and ask a question that appears at face value to be a request for medical advice. They aren't really asking for advice though. They are asking for information. For example, a person may want to know if there are any documented studies on the "best" amount of Vitamin C to take every day. Is it just a couple pills worth or should you consume as much as you possibly can? The question may appear to be a request for medical advice, but it is truly asking for direction to find more information on the subject. Telling this person of intelligence that they are stupid for asking medical advice from strangers is rather demeaning and does nothing more than give Wikipedia a bad name. That is why I've pushed for replacing the "go see a doctor" response with "if you want information, go see WebMD's page XXXX or the NIH's page XXXX. If you just want advice, we can't give it." -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 00:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

(exdent)
:Whoa! Please don't get me wrong. I have no problem at all with responding by directing the questioner elsewhere via links to other places. My quarrel is only with providing "advice" in '''any''' form from a Wikipedian. If one of us feels that providing links (aiding a search) would be helpful then fine. My personal choice however would be to ignore the question entirely (in keeping with many of the posts above). Regarding Kainaw's example just above one only needs to read [[Vitamin_C#Daily_requirements|this]] controversy to see that quicksand abounds. [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 00:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::(after e.c., but grateful for the exdent) Kainaw, maybe I'm completely out of the loop on where the consensual "we" currently stands on the endless topic of giving medical advice, but consider the following questions ''"How much Vitamin C a day should a person take?"'' or ''"How much Vitamin C do medical studies recommend for a person's daily consumption?"'' Wouldn't there be consensus that these questions are okay and may be answered? ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 00:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::While ''I'' feel that both are asking for information (what is the recommended daily allowance), the ''consensus'' is that any question that could possibly result in someone harming themselves medically cannot under any circumstances be answered. How do we know that the person isn't allergic to Vitamin C and that an ordinary over-the-counter multivitamin may cause nearly instant death? I know it is absurd, but that is the consensus. -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 00:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Gulp. I thought medical advice related to the questioner asking about his or her or a friend's or a relative's or a pet's individual ''medical condition'', what they have to expect, and what can be done about it. I didn't know it applied to ''general'' medical information and referenced health recommendations. Well, I don't wish to add another verse to the ballad of giving medical advice , and I never touch those questions anymore anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 00:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::That makes two of us Sluzzelin. I for sure don't want to start a poll here but would be gratified if others followed our example. [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 00:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Kainaw, the consensus I imagine isn't quite that harsh. In particular, a while back, I posted a longish essay on professional advice, which is now in [[Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 38#speaking of the medical/legal disclaimer|the archives]]. In particular, I suggested that while there might be everything wrong with answering questions that asked for advice, there was nothing wrong with answering hypothetical questions, ''even though those hypothetical questions might be advice questions in disguise''. And I don't believe anybody disagreed.

::::I closed that essay with my opinion that
:::::...we ought to have guidelines against asking (and answering) professional-advice questions, but at the same time... we can be reasonable about enforcing them. We certainly don't have to apply them massively or expansively stringently; there's absolutely no need to take anything that even remotely smells like a legal or medical question and knee-jerkily categorize it as a prohibited one.
::::Now that bit, it's true, isn't necessarily accurate at the moment; it almost seems as if there ''are'' people who are "knee-jerkily removing anything that even remotely smells like a medical question". But that's a long-standing foible on Wikipedia: it's all too easy (for any editor) to fall into a zealous rule-enforcement mode, losing sight of the spirit behind the rules. But I wouldn't assume from the fact that there are currently a few editors who might be knee-jerkily removing all such questions, that there is a bona-fide consensus that "any question that could possibly result in someone harming themselves medically cannot under any circumstances be answered". We can, yes, all be reasonable. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 01:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::Correction Steve, we can ''some'' of us be reasonable, not ''all'' of us, and therein lies the root of our well intentioned response. Once we start to draw those distinctions amongst us well then a whole new ''thing'' arises. <br>
:::::It's best, it seems to me, that if the least competent of us wouldn't usually provide a satisfactory response to these kinds of questions (n.b. ''these kinds of questions'') then we should avoid them (the questions), ''all'' of them. Additionally, I don't think that this has anything to do with the inclusionist/exclusionist argument that sometimes arises in defense of these types of questions - that argument is better suited in the Article namespace. [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 02:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::: We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess. I reject least-common-denominator, "cult of mediocrity" arguments. Just because a few people might be idiots, doesn't mean I'm willing to have all the rest of us dragged down to their level. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 02:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::No no Steve - I only meant as it involved ''these kinds of questions''. In general, I don't at all subscribe to the limiting of responses and make no judgment whatsoever regarding who's-who. Hell, I've seen some of my most well reasoned and articulate responses dashed in seconds by those very willing to point out my unreasonableness; that's NOT what I meant above.

::::::::Apparently I'm not saying this very well but allow me one more chance. The RD is a wonderful free-for-all venue that provides us all the opportunity to help those who come here for help and in our own "fun" way call each other to task whenever we have faltered, been remiss, or have just plain been wrong with our response. The subject that I was addressing was ''only'' about those questions which impinged or boarded into what many of us have agreed was inappropriate territory. Those subject areas have become so damn controversial it seems, that our collective wisdom and energies would be better spent on addressing the ''next'' question rather than doing ''this''. I can't imagine why skipping those few questions diminishes the overall RD quality of response at all. [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 03:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::Well, I'm still not sure why you keep using the circumlocution "these kinds of questions" or precisely what you mean by it, but if it's "anything that smells even remotely like a medical question" then, well, I stand by my previous response. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 03:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::Well then if our only disagreement is what I mean by ''these kinds of questions'' I feel that we're on the same page, perhaps a distinction without a difference as "they" say. I don't feel comfortable about setting out rules or boundaries about "''these kinds of questions''", I think that if we generally agree that "''they''" shouldn't be responded to with "knowledge" answers then we're (let me respond for others) fine. The few questions that may border the edge of our collective intent will and should be discussed here so that we may refine our collective understanding as to what is meant by "''''these kinds of questions''". I'm not being cryptic about that usage, it just seems a compact way of saying it right now and if that's disturbing to you then I'll stop saying it. [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 03:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::::Hey, don't censor yourself on my account! It's certainly not disturbing me, or anything like that! (Though it is, yes, quite cryptic.) —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 15:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

(exdent - if this discussion continues, I can't count that many colons)
:↑ which is exactly why you shouldn't be giving medical advice. ;) [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 05:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::Touché and correct. So, is "''colon counting''" to be the measure of one's ability to answer questions around here? Hmmn, I hope not, my eyes quit around six or seven but if so, let the '''colon'''ists come forth, the infirm await your diagnosis! ;-)) [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 05:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::The bad news is that your condition is incurable, but don't panic. Have you tried reading glasses? An alternative is to have your browser preferences set to "blind as a bat" mode. It's easy to find, just echo locate the "help" menu.... never mind, get a friend to do it. :) [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 06:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Ahhh, so then you'll be happy to know the good news about my ''incurable'' condition; that it's not so much the seeing as the counting (you know: one, two, many...) but I'm working on it and should be able to parse "many" any semester now. Also, I tried your suggestion about preferences but my browser doesn't seem to understand counting too well even when my friend tried it (she couldn't even find the "hope" menu). Anyway, we'll keep on keep'n on - I'm sure that we'll break through sooner or later but if not well, there's always the good ol' [[WP:RD|refrinse desck]] to help us (well, me) through the stupid times. ;-(),,, [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 06:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::"''as the counting (you know: one, two, many...)''", I knew that too! 'slaps head' Sorry to hear you're in worse condition than we thought. For your info you'll need six colons for the next reply. Don't use more, that might lead to huge indents and I'm not liable for the side effects from such an occurrence. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 06:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Please ignore the prescription above, I just realised you can't count to six. [[User:David D.|David D.]] [[User talk:David D.|(Talk)]] 07:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::Abject apologies for getting all serious in the middle of this revelry, but if you don't want to count colons, cut'n'paste is your friend. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 14:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(exdenting once again because of my handy cap)

:OK then, if we're thtough screwing around with each other we seem to be wandering a bit off the original topic (it happens) which according to [[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] was:
:: "''Can somebody ask for medical advice if he accepts and understands that we can't give professional medical advice and, consequently, the questioner should take our replies at his own risk?''"
:Yes, ''somebody'' can ask whatever ''somebody'' wants to ask. There is however, no implied or explicit consent as to the efficacy of anyone's response so, why respond to "''these kind of questions''"? The downside is that someone (not us of course) '''might''' offer some stupid advise which '''might''' be followed resulting in some stupid well, result. IMHO - screw it. Go and answer some other question or catch a "Random article" and for sure do some good (know what I mean?). [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 07:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC) '''addendum''': Please note that my comments refer only to "''these kind of questions''". The definition of ''"these kind of questions''" is, as always, under discussion. ;-) [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 07:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::I'm beginning to understand why somebody once said that the "problem" of Wikipedia is that it only worked in practice, its rules are so flexible. Well, thanks to all for clearing my doubts up. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 12:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::The distinction I draw when trying to define "these kinds of questions" is:
::*Question asking for advice about my particular problem: bad.
::*Question asking for information (perhaps about a hypothetical situation): good.
::—[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 15:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::That is a subject I've raised repeatedly (forming many an enemy in these parts)... How do you define a question as being advice and a question as being information? For example: "I have trouble counting the colons in these long indents. What font size should I be using for a 17" monitor?" Well, that is information, right? There are those who will argue that he is trying to get us to diagnose a vision problem he has. What if you get real close to the gray area with: "I was diagnosed with diabetes type II last year. Jones cola has inverted sugar. Can I drink inverted sugar?" This is information, right? The question is: "Does inverted sugar have an adverse affect on Type II diabetics?" But, most people will say it is a question asking for advice, not information. In summary, it is easy to say "information is OK but advice is bad." The problem is that I haven't been able to get any intelligent discussion going to try and define what the difference is between information and advice. -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 22:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Kainaw, whenever people try to engage in discussion about this they tend to get the reply that they haven't understood what you're saying, unless they agree with you. I'm beginning to think ''intelligent discussion'' is rather like the [[no true scotsman|true scotsman]]. [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] ([[User talk:Skittle|talk]]) 16:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

== Medical dignosis removed from Misc desk ==

I removed this response in accordance with RD guidelines:

''It's also possible that the gums hurt instead, which could be a sign of [[gingivitus]] or [[periodontitis]]. I'd schedule and appointment with your dentist if I were you, and in the mean time you can brush, floss, and gargle with [[Listerine]] (if it doesn't make your mouth worse by inflammation, etc) or hydrogen peroxide. Remember to schedule an appointment with your dentist for professional advice. Cheers. --[[Special:Contributions/72.69.146.41|72.69.146.41]] ([[User talk:72.69.146.41|talk]]) 01:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)''

--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 03:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

:Removed "what"? You should provide either the question or a link to the diff. -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 22:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

::Its in plain text above.--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 22:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

:::I see now. It appeared that you removed a question asking about some sort of gum or tooth problem and responded with the comment above, leaving out the question. Reading it again and again and again, it appears that you removed a response to a question. -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 23:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

::::That is correct: I removed a response because it was offering a diagnosis which is contrary to RD guidelines. (I think the whole thread should be removed actually-- but someone else can do that if they see fit.)--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 23:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

== Bitey comments ==

I have noticed a small but worrying increase in the number of [[WP:BITE|bitey]] responses to questions that may appear to some to be "homework". I find this very disappointing. Unless a questioner explicitely says that it is a homework question, there is no way for the rest of us to know that it is. Editors for whom English is a second language may often (in my experience) phrase a question in a way that sounds like homework to a native speaker. Some editors may also naturally frame a question in this way as it is the only way in which they have experienced intellectual questions. May I suggest that if you don't want to answer a question because you believe it to be homework you simply avoid responding? Biting editors becaue you don't like the way their question has been phrased is, I believe, entirely contrary to the spirit and traditions of the refdesks, and will also damage the Wikipedia's reputation. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

:A couple of examples would help me better understand your concerns. Thabks, [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 21:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

::Here's me removing [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=prev&oldid=185650118]. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

:::I dont think those comments are particularly 'bitey'. The first is a legit question, and the second is an observation. wheres the bite?--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 23:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I agree that the "homework" suspicion could have been more <s>delicately</s> tactfully phrased but I've not noted any trend towards increased "bitiness". [[User:Hydnjo|hydnjo]] [[User talk:Hydnjo|talk]] 01:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

==Trolling "question" removed==
My reading of [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=prev&oldid=185751850 this] was that it was a troll of a question. The OP seemed to already be knee-deep in a knee-jerk thesis and seemed to have no interest in actually learning about the subject. It is more of a soapbox rant than a request for enlightenment. So I removed it. FYI. --[[Special:Contributions/24.147.69.31|24.147.69.31]] ([[User talk:24.147.69.31|talk]]) 02:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
:It was certainly a terribly leading question and might well have been a troll of one also, but it kind of sucks that in removing it you also removed a bunch of respondents' answers, sort of negating whatever time, thought and effort went into formulating them. [[User:Azi Like a Fox|Azi Like a Fox]] ([[User talk:Azi Like a Fox|talk]]) 04:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
::I defiantly appose this removal and hope that the question can be restored to the desk quickly. We should only be doing these total reverts in exceptional circumstances such as personal attacks and blatant spamming. A little trolling like this has always been present on the desks. If the OP isn’t actually searching for information, the responses people give will almost certainly help someone. Let’s put this question back. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 03:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Perhaps it would be better &ndash; if you were interested in discussing the issues &ndash; for you to pose a question yourself that contained fewer rhetorical questions and more actual interest in the answers? Consider questions along the lines of
:::*What evidence is there that tax cuts do/do not stimulate the economy?
:::*How do governments balance the priorities of social services, direct economic stimulus, and tax cuts?
:::*What is the impact of welfare fraud on the economy?
:::What can I say? I'd rather not see us rise to the bait of borderline-literate trolls. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 04:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Hmm. . . I’m unclear as to who you are addressing Ten. I personally have no interest in this question whatsoever. In fact as a diehard liberal I found the original trolling slightly insulting. It was certainly a very unhelpful “question.” However, I recognize that we are standing on a huge [[slippery slope]] here. I don’t want the desks to become a [[big brother]] zone on Wikipedia. We have always done our best to answer all non-dangerous questions on the desks and I see no reason that should change. I also think many editors besides myself are unhappy with reverting messages at the drop of a hat. We’ve already lost at least [[User:DirkvdM|one good editor]] because of it. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 04:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::I don't think encouraging such transparent trolling is good for the Desk. I'm not likely to go to the trouble of removing such a 'question', but I don't think it's worth putting back; we're not supposed to be a soapbox for thinly-veiled rants. But if you &ndash; or anyone &ndash; were interested in a civilized discussion on the topic, then the best way would be to ask a much less loaded question.
:::::What can I say? I'm usually a bleeding-heart ACLU-supporting it's-a-matter-of-principle-dammit sort of guy, but I can't bring myself to get upset over our jackbooted crushing of that poor, freedom-loving-American's free expression. We're an encyclopedia project, and the questioner here wasn't interested in helping ''or'' in being helped. Show me someone who wants to drink at the well of knowledge rather than piss in it and I'll get more worked up over our censorship. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 05:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well, I see where you're coming from, but I just see so many problems with this.
:::::#We revert medical and legal advice as well as personal attacks and spamming. These reverts do not require a judgment call. There are some gray areas but it’s almost always a clear yes or no case. Reverting trolling however DOES require a huge judgment call. Who’s to say what’s trolling and what’s not? Sometimes it’s pretty obvious, but if we start doing this what’s to stop Joeblow Wikipedian from reverting any question that seems a bit unconstructive? As has been pointed out before users who are not accustomed to Wikipedia may think they posted their question in the wrong place or somehow didn’t save it right.
:::::#If we start reverting what looks like trolling why not start reverting questions that look like homework? Why not “debate/chat room” questions? Why not revert questions written in all caps? Why not revert questions that can easily be answered through a quick Google search? The same logic can be applied to any of these cases.
:::::#Do we revert soap boxing/trolling on any other talk page on Wikipedia? No, we revert slander, attacks, threats, etc. For soap boxing we ignore the person or leave them a civil message informing them that this is not the place.
::::::If we revert trolling on the desks on site we may be biting people or ignore genuine questions. If we answer constructively, or at most use a [[Wikipedia:What is a troll?#Dealing with trolls|slow revert]] we do no harm and make the desks a bit more civil. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 06:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::The problem with the slow revert process as documented on that page is that it assumes a "lack of any kind of immediate response". I think we all know that there is little chance of such a lack on the Desks. The question in question had four responses in a little less than five hours, the first coming within two hours (which is actually kind of slow for the Desks). And personally, I'd be delighted to see debate/chat room questions shot on sight. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 19:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Well, I’m thinking slow reverts in egregious cases. These kinds of “questions” are often left unanswered already, and if this became a standard response it could be more workable. Still I think it’s almost always better to answer politely. . .

::::::::I’ve outlined my reasons for objecting to this. If it doesn’t convince anybody then that’s that. We must agree to disagree. Still I don’t see the approach working on a regular basis anyway. Editors tend to object to having their carefully crafted responses reverted along with the OQ. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 23:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Actually we do revert and remove soap boxing and trolling on talk pages on occasion, particularly on a very active talk page where it risks getting out of hand. This however is simple enough to do because talk pages are ONLY intended to discuss ways to improve an articles content. Clearly if someone is offering their opinion of GWB or their hatred for whatever or how bad whatever religion or whatever is it's off topic since talk pages are not places for people to posts such opinions. Anyone who starts soapboxing or trolling is usually already way off topic. It is possible to soapboxing or troll without clearly going so clearly off topic. For example asking why doesn't the article mention anything about XYZ. In these cases it's usually ignored rather then removed. But on the RD, it's rarely so simple since questions are welcome and so are answers so the line between soapboxing and trolling and a poorly phrased question or a question by a naïve person doesn't exist. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 15:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:As one of the people who tried to give a reasonably thoughtful answer, I'll allow that I was annoyed by the removal. Even if the OP was a troll, there are ''many'' 'Mercans who agree with his sentiment, and it makes sense to at least offer an attempt at lighting a candle. Complete removals should be reserved for egregious cases, and extra care should be taken when responses have already been made. --[[User:TotoBaggins|Sean]] 02:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

== Vandalism on Misc Desk ==

There's a curious piece of vandalism currently on the [[Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous|miscellaneous desk]] - the categories at the bottom of the page include "West Semitic gods". I've looked at the whole page in the edit window, and I can't see where it's coming from or how to remove it. Anyone? --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] [[User talk:Richardrj|<sup>talk </sup>]][[Special:Emailuser/Richardrj|<sup>email</sup>]] 05:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:It was well hidden, and not vandalism but the result of a mistake. With [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008_January_18&diff=186059938&oldid=186053154 this edit] the problem should be gone. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 06:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
::Great, thanks. Apologies to the OP for assuming it was vandalism! --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] [[User talk:Richardrj|<sup>talk </sup>]][[Special:Emailuser/Richardrj|<sup>email</sup>]] 06:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

== Latin to English Translation ==

Hmmm... this guy apparently wants us to do a kinda long translation instead of hiring a translator or proof-reader. Are these questions allowed here? --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 21:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
:Allowed, yes, but fulfilling the request is left to the discretion of the RD denizens. I don't see a problem with leaving a note suggesting that he'd be better served by a translation or proof-reading service. &mdash; [[User talk :Lomn|Lomn]] 22:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
::Okay. --[[User:Taraborn|Taraborn]] ([[User talk:Taraborn|talk]]) 22:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
::Agreed, as long as they are linking to the source rather then pasting a whole source which raises copyvio issues as well as simply being confusing and making it difficult for other editors to edit and readers to read the RD. If someone posts a several thousand word essay and asks us to translate it I think you can remove it [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 20:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== "Evidence for Christianity as the One True Religion?" thread removal ==

Should we remove this thread? It seems to be trying to start a debate of some sort. '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<font color="black">bibliomaniac</font>]][[User talk:Bibliomaniac15|<font color="red">1</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Bibliomaniac15|<font color="blue">5</font>]]''''' 04:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:Keep it removed. It is crossposted and appears to be a pathetic attempt to get a lot of links to Google will rank the OP's site higher. -- [[User:Kainaw|<font color='#ff0000'>k</font><font color='#cc0033'>a</font><font color='#990066'>i</font><font color='#660099'>n</font><font color='#3300cc'>a</font><font color='#0000ff'>w</font>]][[User talk:Kainaw|&trade;]] 05:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not starting a debate, this is just asking people what they think. This is just asking about what a particular group of people would think about a particular subject.

As for a higher OP site ranking in Google, that's nonsense! I was just giving it as an example of the claims of some Christians for those evidences for Christianity to be one true religion. [[User:Bowei Huang|Bowei Huang]] ([[User talk:Bowei Huang|talk]]) 06:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry, Bowei, but regardless of what you believe your intentions to be, those "questions", as worded, are so full of intrigue and innuendo that they absolutely beg for debate. In fact, they serve as a nearly perfect example of why we decline debate-fostering questions on these desks.

:I [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=187417340 deleted] one of your questions once, and you [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=187418811&oldid=187417340 reposted] it. I won't delete it again, but I'm glad to see that the respondents, so far, have for the most part not risen to the bait. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 15:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== BOLD PROPOSAL: Merge the Humanities and Entertainment desks ==
For a very long time the Entertainment desk has been the ugly, low-traffic duckling of the Reference Desks. Many questions there go unanswered, and the quality of the answers is often inferior to those on [[WP:RD/H]]. Part of this problem has to do with the nature of the questions asked--I will concede that--but I honestly believe more and better answers would be forthcoming if the questions were visible on a forum with higher traffic.

Regulars at the Humanities desks might initially bristle at the sudden influx of questions about sporting teams and pop groups, but I'm sure they would get over it eventually--and they could easily ignore the questions that fell outside their areas of interest. Besides, I firmly believe that the line between high and low culture is a contrived and nebulous one. So, if there are no objections....--[[User:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back|The Fat Man Who Never Came Back]] ([[User talk:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back|talk]]) 19:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:Seems a reasonable suggestion. But was was the entertainment desk created in the first place? [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|The otter sank]] 19:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

::Yes, the line between high and low culture can probably be called contrived and nebulous; but for many people there is only one significant culture - popular or traditional, depending on their tastes. I'm fairly indifferent to this proposal either way, but if it fails, I'd like to see the Entertainment desk renamed "Popular Culture". That seems to capture the flavour of most of the questions that turn up there; and I'm sure those who are interested in more traditional culture, who tend to go to the Humanities desk, would be shocked to think we don't consider classical music, for example, as "entertainment". -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 23:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:::PS. I see Steve Summit suggested this very name name change on 16 January. He said he wasn't being serious. I, on the other hand, am quite serious. -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 23:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Yes rename it Popular culture (serious). Then we can rename [[humanities]] to [[Unpopular culture]] (not serious)--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 23:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

::::'''Support''' renaming the entertainment desk “Popular culture.” --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 07:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::::'''Strongly Disagree''': The Humanities, or Homework Desk as it is often know, is like a wannabe teachers wet dream. Please don't ruin the Entertainment Desk with this merger. '''<font color="SteelBlue">[[User:Lanfear%27s_Bane|Lanfear's Bane]]</font> | <font color="DimGray">[[User_talk:Lanfear%27s_Bane|t]]</font>''' 10:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::::'''Oppose''' – don't spoil my wet dream. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 13:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::::'''Oppose''' merging but '''slightly support''' renaming. The Humanities Desk is likely to discourage they type of questions that currently appear on Entertainment, and calling it "Popular Culture" would probably generate more interest in it. [[User talk:Think outside the box|<i>Think outside the box</i>]] 13:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::::'''Oppose''' characterization of Entertainment replies as having inferior quality. Different types of questions, different types of replies. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 14:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::Wait wait wait people! THIS straw poll is about renaming the desk NOT merging. :) Start your own straw poll about the issue of merging; this one is already too confusing as it is. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 22:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

::::'''Support''' renaming per JackofOz. '''Not to keen''' about deletion of the Entertainment desk (which is what the merge would amount to). Going through the archives, this desk's existence is justified by overall frequency (comparable to the Mathematics desk) and by the type of questions asked there. As far as I can see, the answers and references tend to be useful too. '''Indifferent''' to confusion of mixing polls. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 23:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Additional comment: '''Strong support''', of course, for more volunteers helping out at the Entertainment desk! ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 23:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::Great, now I’ve inadvertently introduced a third topic into this mixed straw poll. It's true, [http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/HowTo:Vandalise_Wikipedia "Wikipedians will discuss anything."] :) --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 01:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::::'''Strongly oppose''' merging: Entertainments is a delicate plant that would die in the harsh light of Humanities. '''Mildly oppose''' renaming as any mention of culture would scare away the sports questions, I think. [[User:SaundersW|SaundersW]] ([[User talk:SaundersW|talk]]) 17:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::I added "sports" to the Entertainment desk's subtopics and regrouped the subtopics slightly. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/RD_header&diff=prev&oldid=187987906 (diff)]. I think SaundersW makes a good point regarding sports, and had wondered about adding the topic before. Please revert if anyone feels sports questions belong elsewhere (miscellaneous?) and we can discuss it. I think "sports" should be included in that desk no matter whether its name is "Entertainment" or "Popular culture". ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 20:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I don't think that sports belong to culture of any kind, or to entertainment. I'm not suggesting they're not entertaining or culturally significant; but the entertainment factor applies only to spectators, not participants. And when we hear the word "culture", apart from reaching for one's gun, one doesn't immediately think of sport. Well, I don't. Maybe we should have a separate Sports Ref Desk. -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 20:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Thank you, Jack. I reverted and removed "sports" for now. I'm not sure about creating a sports desk, because I'm cautious about adding more desks as long as the ones we have are manageable. I did mean ''spectator sports'' types of questions, not questions on sports physiology, for example. As usual, there is grey overlap and a perfect fit won't be possible. I guess we did okay without mentioning sports, and sports questions get asked at the Humanities and Miscellaneous desks too. Thoughts? ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 20:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::I do think Sports is a valid subtopic for Entertainment. For those whose complaint is that RD/E doesn't get enough traffic, steering sport questions there will perhaps meet the imaginary quota and get the poor li'l desk the respect it deserves. US sports cable TV network [[ESPN]] shows almost nothing except sporting events, but the letter stand for Entertainment and Sports Programming Network. Which may indeed be a specious argument. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 21:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::There is a case for saying that sportspeople are in "show business", ergo entertainment. But I think most people would make a clear distinction between the usual connotations of the word "entertainment" and "sport". The object of an entertainer is to entertain; the object of a sportsperson is to play a sport, and they may just happen to be entertaining while they're about it - or they may not. Still, it's only fiddling at the edges, and we'll still field questions wherever they appear. -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 23:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
::::'''Oppose'''. "Entertainment" makes sense, and is more inclusive of questions like "how do I wire my HDTV thingie?". In my opinion, ''nothing'' should be named "Popular culture". / [[User:Edgarde|edg]]<small> [[User_talk:Edgarde|☺]] [[Special:Contributions/Edgarde|☭]]</small> 20:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

== The "Choose a Section" section... ==

Each RD page has various fixed elements: The main menu at the upper left, the editing tabs at the top, the rules in the middle followed by the index, etc. On the right, at the top, there is a fixed group of links to the various desks.
I tend to troll the various desks, looking for something interesting to learn, and occasionally adding something useful to someone's question. I am lazy, and would prefer to not have to scroll all the way back up to the top of each page to access the next desk on the list, and I can't help but notice that there is a lot of empty space along the left margin towards the bottom (since the main menu is fairly short, and the various desks always have huge center Q&A sections).
Would it be possible to also have that fixed group of links-to-various-desks also show up on the left margin, at the very bottom? Surely I'm not the only person who trolls more than one desk, and if someone can figure out how to do this, it would be "work once" for "benefit forever". No, my html skills are not up to doing it right the first time, and I'm not gonna experiment on this. -[[User:SandyJax|SandyJax]] ([[User talk:SandyJax|talk]]) 21:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
: Didn't {{User|froth}} create something you could add to your [[monobook]] that did this? I'll see if I can find out. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 21:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:: Yup. Have a look at the nav-tools at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/tools]]. (specifically, check out the very bottom left of the screen [[User:Froth/refdeskfixedalt|here]]). [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 21:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Works great. After you follow the instructions. And log out and log back in. And are actually on one of the RD pages. Thank you, and thank {{User|froth}}! -[[User:SandyJax|SandyJax]] ([[User talk:SandyJax|talk]]) 22:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:Appreciation! :O I'm going to update the code right now <s>since both scripts are crippled by the stupid decision to recognize WP: as a namespace</s> [[User:Froth|:D\=&lt;]] ([[User talk:Froth|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
::Oh hm, looks like it's a side effect of merging the headers back into a kludgey half-dynamic template.. a lot of work to fix up. So unless someone wants to do it, you'll just have to live without [http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5356/screenshotwo3.png slick highlighting] of the boxes [[User:Froth|:D\=&lt;]] ([[User talk:Froth|talk]]) 22:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

== Wikilinks starting with slash? ==

I can't seem to link to the /dev/random/ article on the reference desk. Now that I try it out, it doesn't work in the Sandbox either. It works fine in article space, though. Is there a way around this without resorting to external http links? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:APL|APL]] ([[User talk:APL|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/APL|contribs]]) 13:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:The links in the "See also" section of the /dev/random article are surrounded by tt tags and have a colon before the slash. The tt tags are just for appearance, so a link such as this - [[:/dev/random]] seems to work. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 15:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:FYI, the reason it works in article space is that subpages are disabled there, so the software doesn't think you're trying to link to one. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 16:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

== Removed thread from lonely 22 year old ==

I'm not going to cite chapter of verse of Wikipedia policy or guidelines to justify this, but I've removed [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=187927407 this thread] from the Desks. I am at least the third editor to do so in the last twelve hours. I've blocked the IP, but I suspect he will be able to get another one fairly readily. (He's already done so once.)

In a nutshell, the user claims to be a friendless 22 year old who's given up on finding a girlfriend, but who wants to "befriend little girl[s] (age 5-12 or so)"; he says he "find[s] them extremely adorable and this appeals greatly" to him. He claims to already be in webcam contact with a 9 year old who is "unfortunately" in another part of the country.

Given some of his responses, I suspect that he's just a troll and not a pedophile. In any case, I'm kicking this issue upstairs to AN/I. (Post will appear shortly.) I ask that no one restore this thread in the meantime. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:Link to AN/I thread: [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#22 yr old male seeks 9 yr old female friend on Ref Desk]]. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 15:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&diff=187927407&oldid=187926448 This] question has been deleted, apparently for the second time (I didn't follow it the first time). In the first place, I'm not sure that it warrants deletion; I'd welcome other editors' views on that. In the second place, I'm a little irked by the way the word "troll" is being used (in the thread itself and in the edit summary), as though it's a matter of indisputable fact, rather than interpretation, that this guy is a troll. As I said in the thread, I hardly think either this question or the rest of the guy's contributions mark him out as "someone who posts controversial messages in an online community...with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response" (from our 'troll' article). And the good faith we should be assuming seems to have evaporated for no other reason than that the guy called someone who labelled him a troll an "idiot". --[[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] [[User talk:Richardrj|<sup>talk </sup>]][[Special:Emailuser/Richardrj|<sup>email</sup>]] 15:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:If you take the time to check the page history and look at this guy's contributions (with the "other" IP address that was pointed out in the thread), from about 13-14 hours ago, you can see that he used up his allotment of good faith quite well. He deleted a whole section of the page (and caused other questions to be lost), when the section was restored, he struck out all of the text, and his edit summaries were over the top. These actions and the first posting of the question resulted in the first IP being blocked. And do you really think that the deleted question was not controversial? I'm not going to throw out diagnoses that I'm not qualified to make, but "creepy" is the mildest description I can think of. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 15:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:It does no good to say "troll", I agree. If you do, and it is a troll, he has succeeded. If he's not, you have failed. In this case, though, if we assume good faith and he is not a troll, it is our duty as responsible citizens to do what we can to make sure that the police have a look at this man. I'm not kidding. --[[User:Milkbreath|Milkbreath]] ([[User talk:Milkbreath|talk]]) 16:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
::[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&diff=prev&oldid=187909960 My edit here.]. I thought I approached it reasonably. I will however cite [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:DUCK#The_duck_test duckery] in defence should my comment be observed in a less than favourable light. '''<font color="SteelBlue">[[User:Lanfear%27s_Bane|Lanfear's Bane]]</font> | <font color="DimGray">[[User_talk:Lanfear%27s_Bane|t]]</font>''' 16:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:He's back - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#How_do_I_get_a_little_girl_friend.3F]. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 21:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:: Deleted it. Feel free to revert if you think i shouldn't have (except for the person who originally posted it. [[User:Cryo921|Cryo921]] ([[User talk:Cryo921|talk]]) 21:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel utterly stupid for answering the question in the first place. The provocative language was a warning sign but I reasoned that it could be just poor language choice or that English was their second language. [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<font color="FF69B4">Seraphim</font>]] [[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<sup><font color="black">Whipp</font></sup>]] 22:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:Please never feel stupid for assuming good faith. Normally, that's the best way of handling trolloid threads. This is a very special case with a history of violent language, editing, and a question on an extremely uncomfortable topic. You did nothing wrong. ---[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|<small>talk</small>]] 22:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll add my opinion that deleting this thread was absolutely the right thing to do, and my thanks to the several editors who did so. —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 04:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
::I’ll second that Steve. --[[User:S.dedalus|S.dedalus]] ([[User talk:S.dedalus|talk]]) 03:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&curid=40297&diff=188213640&oldid=188213019 More shenanigans]. Completely different IP range, but the edit summary and M.O. were similar. I've undone the change. --[[User:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F">LarryMac</font>]][[User talk:LarryMac|<font color="#3EA99F"><small> | Talk</small></font>]] 19:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


== My question deleted ==

Why was my general question about diet and statins deleted?--[[User:TreeSmiler|TreeSmiler]] ([[User talk:TreeSmiler|talk]]) 02:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:56, 22 November 2024

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Unreadable in dark mode

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Unfortunately I have no solutions to offer, but Wikipedia:Reference desk is nearly unreadable in the new dark mode - the very light grey text in the white boxes just vanishes. Thought I'd at least note it here in case anyone knows of a fix. 57.140.16.8 (talk) 15:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It all looks normal to me. Where is this "dark mode" option you're talking about? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_214#Dark_mode_for_logged-in_users_on_desktop_coming_this_week! @Baseball Bugs 97.113.14.140 (talk) 03:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like that's where complaints about this thing should be taken. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no complaints about the tool; seems to be working as intended, but this page isn't set up to render usefully using it. But hey ho. 97.113.14.140 (talk) 12:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should take this question to the Village Pump. Either that, or don't user Dark Mode. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good advice. I tried it once. I didn't like it. (Sex, that is. I also didn't like being reasonable, or the new Wikipedia dark mode.) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Jdlrobson and Izno! Looks great now. 57.140.16.8 (talk) 13:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! 🐸 Jdlrobson (talk) 08:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Humanities and header hatnote

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Last week, Mod creator decided to add a hatnote to the humanities desk, and then PrimeHunter decided to remove it a few days later. Here's the content:

"WP:RD/H" redirects here. For the template header used in all areas of the reference desks, see WP:Reference desk/Header.

Neither adding nor removing was discussed, and lack of discussion was one reason given for its removal. So, let's start a discussion...is this header a good idea? I'm leaning toward "no", thanks to the reasons given for removal, but I can understand the reasoning for adding. Nyttend (talk) 22:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the removal, there is no reason to have that at the top of the page. --Viennese Waltz 14:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No; the template is way further down the ladder. While pageviews are not infalliable, the comparison – on a logarithmic scale, you'll note – is pretty damning. If someone is looking for WP:Reference desk/header they probably know how to find it. Cremastra (talk) 19:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bots

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Do the bots really edit pages or something else because I saw from the citation bot literally remove and replace the same information with the same words Avyanna.Owam (talk) 11:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you see that? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fake Desi media content querant

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Looks like the Californian troll who pretends to be a poorly comprehending fan of Indian subcontinent media, with poor English, has now got themself an account. (If I was sufficiently motivated, I'd link the thread several months back where they crowed in perfect English about successfully fooling us.) Should something be done about this? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.211.243 (talk) 07:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure I follow. The last couple of times they've posted on Ents from an IP address, it's geolocated to India. --Viennese Waltz 09:05, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue has been sorted, the account has been indefinitely blocked. --Viennese Waltz 13:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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