Talk:Golden Dawn (Greece): Difference between revisions

Popular Association – Golden Dawn
Popular Association – Golden Dawn
Ideology	Neo-fascism; Megali Idea; Right-wing populism; Hard Euroscepticism;
Political position	Far-right

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Infobox - ideology; April 2021

I'd like to start a discussion about shrinking the size of the ideology section since as of today it contains 16 ideologies and political stances combined. My proposal is to shrink it to "Neo-fascism, Megali Idea, Right-wing populism and Hard Euroscepticism" since:

Metaxism itself is a fascist ideology, the same goes for Nazism/Neo-Nazism and because of that, it can be shrunk to just Neo-fascism
Ultranationalism and any form of xenophobia (in this case Islamophobia, Antisemitism, Anti-Turkism) and anti-communism are aspects of Neo-fascism and thus they can be merged into Neo-fascism
Social and national conservatism can be removed because of Neo-fascism's ultra-conservatism
Economic nationalism/protectionism, anti-globalism and anti-immigration are aspects of European-wide Right-wing populism

I hope I explained my reason why this has to get shortened, obviously these aspects can be moved down in the "Other policy positions" section. Vacant0 (talk) 18:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think info-boxes should only have one ideology, unless parties have more than one. However, it's not clear how their ideology is best described. I would put in far right, since it obviously comes within the far right family of ideologies. TFD (talk) 18:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine to have more than one ideological position. I think a longing to return to Metaxism is a defining feature of Golden Dawn and should be included. Certainly the wall of ideological positions should be culled. I'm fine with Vacant0's suggestions, with the addition of Metaxism. Bacondrum 04:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't say that Metaxism is a defining feature. Its website says Golden Dawn "was comprised of a core group of Nationalists who based their beliefs on our ancestors ideology. The core ideals of Golden Dawn are based primarily on that of ancient Sparta, and to a lesser extent taking inspiration from more modern figures of our history such as (among many others) Theodoros Kolokotronis and Ioannis Metaxas." It's not that they have multiple ideologies within one party, but that different news reporters have chosen different terms to describe them. But all the descriptions refer to a far right ideology of some sort.

Bear in mind the reason for the info-box is to provide readers with key facts at a glance. Party ideology is important because ideologies are similar across different nations. British readers familiar with the BNP and American readers familiar with the KKK want to know that Golden Dawn is similar in ideology. Telling them that the party is Metaxist doesn't tell them anything, unless they click on the link to another article.

TFD (talk) 13:47, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Metaxism is just another reactionary set of views and it is closely described as fascist. If neo-fascism and Megali Idea are already in the infobox, then why does Metaxism has to stay? Vacant0 (talk) 11:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are neo-Metaxists. Metaxism is central to their beliefs. Many of the sources in the article discuss the connection. Metaxism is more accurate than simply fascist. Bacondrum 22:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They're not exactly intellectuals, except perhaps for a few of their leaders. How much ideology does it take to say you hate minorities? TFD (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You might be shocked to discover how much mental juggling people will do to justify the phrase "I'm not a racist, but..." There's a ton of different ways to reach the same bigoted conclusion while pretending you're not really racist. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:21, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm alright with including Metaxism, I just don't think that we need 50 ideologies in a infobox if we can just describe someone "neo-fascist" instead of stating 50 subideologies. --Vacant0 (talk) 18:33, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They're not sending us their best people, we're being swamped and will lose our identity, I didn't say all Jews are part of the conspiracy. It's not a terribly sophisticated ideology and even self-contradictory. TFD (talk) 20:40, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the above comments, far-right groups like this don’t exactly attract deep thinkers, and I agree we don’t need dozens of ideologies. I just think Metaxism and Megali idea are particularly relevant to this group in terms of influence on the violent and simplistic ideology they ascribe to. I think the four ideological positions suggested above works, with the addition of key precedent and influence, Metaxism. Bacondrum 23:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I read the four sources and none of them claim that Metaxism is an ideology of Golden Dawn. TFD (talk) 09:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. So are we then only keeping "neo-fascism", "rw populism", "megali idea" and "hard euroscepticism" in the infobox? --Vacant0 (talk) 12:59, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We have a cited claim in the lede that they are admirer's of it claims to draw its inspiration in this primarily from the 4th of August Regime established by Ioannis Metaxas. I also remeber another cite that contained the claim that Golden Dawn see him as their "great fascist leader". I'll look through tomorrow and find it. If you do a google search for "Metaxa Golden Dawn" many articles and papers appear in the search, again I'll go through and make a selection when I have time, hopefully tomorrow. They've always been a Metaxist group in my mind. Bacondrum 09:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Golden Dawn uses Metaxas as a method of making their movement appear as legitimately Greek. It doesn't mean that they follow his ideology. Trump admires Andrew Jackson, that doesn't mean he is a Jacksonian Democrat. TFD (talk) 14:47, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. Okay we should leave Metaxism out of the infobox then. Bacondrum 21:56, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the infobox proposed by Vacant0. The media do not often describe them as (neo)metaxist, but rather as neo-Nazi (some of their internal documents praise the Hitler regime and certain party members' do the Nazi salute) or neofascist; in fact neofascism particularly distinguishes this party from most of the other relatively more respectable European nationalist parties. There does not seem to be a problem for the other 3 ideologies (many of their electoral campaign speeches' are irredentist, so Megali Idea is central). In any case, overcrowded infoboxes flood the reader with unnecessary details, other ideologies can be moved to a more developed section within the body of the article. --Martopa (talk) 15:43, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Vacant0 per his comments above.Elserbio00 (talk) 09:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Were they banned?

The infobox shows them as having been banned, but they're also being included in recent opinion polls. Just trying to be sure Nevermore27 (talk) 21:06, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I removed that line from the infobox, its a misunderstanding. Long story short is that Michaloliakos et all were convicted of a variety of criminal acts, but legally speaking that was unrelated to Golden Dawn the political party. I removed Category:Organized crime groups in Greece for the same reason. --RaiderAspect (talk) 13:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The opening paragraph still contains the word "banned" as a definitional buzzword. I was confused, because there is no mention of them being legally banned from political involvement anywhere in the article. I am going to remove that from the page. Also just a site note, the word order in the sentence also reads unnatural. I was going to rearrange it so that it reads like idiomatic English but I guess I will just remove the word "banned" Pomodecon (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing edit.

@Joesom333: I completely disagree with this edit, because the new wording is much more confusing to anyone unfamiliar with NYC. Simply saying "Astoria, New York, and Tarpon Springs, Florida" would be the best solution, IMO. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 11:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Astoria is not a city, though; it is a neighborhood in Queens, New York City, New York. What if we just say "New York City, New York, and Tarpon Springs, Florida"? Joesom333 (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)contribs) 09:39, March 20, 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be fine with that. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@HandThatFeeds: O.K. I edited it per the above discussion. It now reads "New York City, New York and Tarpon Springs, Florida"

Thank you for being collaborative. This is what Wikipedia is about. Joesom333 (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Far-right?

Since when this is a far-right party? It is a left-wing movement. It is a National Socialist party. National Socialism and fascism are far-left movements. 2A00:23C8:9656:2601:1937:6CA2:7E4:E088 (talk) 13:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You should go to one of their rallies, tell them they are far leftists and report back to us with their response. TFD (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But the movement is socialist. Nazis are socialists. How could they be far-right? They hate the free market and they are anti-capitalists. How is that right-wing? It is the opposite end to Thatcher and Reagan. 2A00:23C8:9656:2601:1937:6CA2:7E4:E088 (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not what the supporters of the movement think but what they really are. They do not fit the criteria of being right-wing. 2A00:23C8:9656:2601:1937:6CA2:7E4:E088 (talk) 16:23, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

no, just no Braganza (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nazis were not socialists. As you say, it's not what they call themselves but what they really are.

Reagan and Thatcher were considered right-wing because they supported greater social, political and economic inequality. The specific means they used are incidental. TFD (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The National Socialist Workers Party was not socialist? By whose definition?

Reagan and Thatcher promoted economic freedom. Golden Dawn is against the free market system. They believe in socialism. I hope I have sorted this out for you. 2A00:23C8:9656:2601:F0CC:5AD7:250E:EFA4 (talk) 19:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose you believe the DPRK is a legitimate, democratic republic as well?

Take your Nazi apologia and go. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:47, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per no original research, you need a reliable source that comes to the same conclusion you do about Golden Dawn. TFD (talk) 22:47, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No sources describe Golden Dawn as far-left. Golden Dawn is undeniably far-right and Nazism/fascism aren't left-wing ideologies, but far-right ideologies. Vacant0 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Payslip Forgery claims and citations

This was flagged in 2016(!) as "citation needed": The "payslip", which was supposedly "signed" by a "Hellenic army's officer", was a fake, as was proven in court after Golden Dawn's complaint.

The cited sources were:

A now-defunct 'Daily Mail-style paper: https://web.archive.org/web/20120918042347/http://www.ezy.gr/plasto-to-eggrafo-ths-kup-kai-me-epishmh-apofash-dikasthriou

This is a link to a denouncement/press release on GD's own now-defunct WordPress: https://archive.today/20120419194537/http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF-%CF%84%CE%BF-%CE%AD%CE%B3%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%BF-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BA%CF%85%CF%80-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9-%CE%BC%CE%B5-%CE%B5%CF%80%CE%AF%CF%83/

The wording of the supposed court ruling finding the document a forgery and therefore defamatory:

«ΠΡΩΤΟΔΙΚΕΙΟ ΑΘΗΝΩΝ Αριθμός 52803/04 ΕΚΘΕΣΗ ΠΡΑΚΤΙΚΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟΦΑΣΗ ΤΟΥ ΤΡΙΜΕΛΟΥΣ ΠΛΗΜΜΕΛΕΙΟΔΙΚΕΙΟΥ ΑΘΗΝΩΝ ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΑΣΗ της 5-10-2004 Κατηγορούμενος Σωτήρης Σοφιανόπουλος του Αριστοτέλη κατ. Αθηνών Πράξεις 1) Συκοφαντική δυσφήμηση κατ’ εξακολούθηση 2) Χρήση πλαστού εγγράφου κατ’ εξακολούθηση ΕΚΘΕΣΗ ΠΡΑΚΤΙΚΩΝ Κατά τη σημερινή δημόσια στο ακροατήριο συνεδρίαση του Δικαστηρίου κ, Πρόεδρος, εκφώνησε το όνομα του κατηγορουμένου ο οποίος αφού εμφανίστηκε και ρωτήθηκε από την Πρόεδρο σχετικά με την ταυτότητά του κλπ, είπε ότι ονομάζεται όπως αναγράφεται παραπάνω… Η ΑΠΟΦΑΣΗ Η Εισαγγελέας στην οποία δόθηκε ο λόγος, αφού ανέπτυξε την κατηγορία, πρότεινε να κηρυχθεί ο κατηγορούμενος ένοχος για τις λοιπές πράξεις. Ο κατηγορούμενος ρωτήθηκε από την Πρόεδρο εάν έχει να προσθέσει οτιδήποτε για την υπεράσπισή του και απάντησε αρνητικά. Κατόπιν τούτων η Πρόεδρος κήρυξε το πέρας της συζητήσεως. Το Δικαστήριο στη συνέχεια, σε μυστική διάσκεψη με την παρουσία και του Γραμματέα του, κατάρτισε και η Πρόεδρος του δημοσίευσε σε δημόσια συνεδρίαση του την 52803/04 απόφασή του που έχει ως εξής: ΣΚΕΦΤΗΚΕ ΚΑΤΑ ΤΟ ΝΟΜΟ Από την κύρια αποδεικτική διαδικασία και τα έγγραφα των οποίων έγινε η ανάγνωση στο ακροατήριο, καθώς και από τις καταθέσεις των μαρτύρων κατηγορίας και υπερασπίσεως, που εξετάστηκαν νομότυπα στο ακροατήριο, σε συνδυασμό με την απολογία του κατηγορουμένου και την εν γένει συζήτηση της υποθέσεως, προέκυψε και το Δικαστήριο πείστηκε, ότι ο κατηγορούμενος έχει τελέσει τις πράξεις που του αποδίδει το κατηγορητήριο: της συκοφαντικής δυσφήμισης και της χρήσης πλαστού εγγράφου κατ’ εξακολούθηση

“Ειδικότερα αποδείχθηκε ότι: 1) ο εν λόγω κατηγορούμενος, τελώντας εν γνώσει της αναληθείας, ισχυρίστηκε και διέδωσε ενώπιον τρίτων για τον εγκαλούντα Νικόλαο Μιχαλολιάκο γεγονότα ψευδή, τα οποία μπορούσαν να βλάψουν την τιμή και την υπόληψη αυτού και συγκεκριμένα: α) κατά το από 15 έως 20 Νοεμβρίου 1999 χρονικό διάστημα τοποθέτησε στις θυρίδες των βουλευτών του Ελληνικού Κοινοβουλίου δήθεν “απόρρητο έγγραφο της ΕΥΠ που είχε στην κατοχή και με την ένδειξη “δια να μάθετε την αλήθεια” ότι εγκαλών (Νικόλαος Μιχαλολιάκος) ήταν “έμμισθος έκτακτος συνεργάτης της ΕΥΠ, με μηνιαίες αποδοχές 120.000 δραχμές” “2) ότι αυτός, ενώ γνώριζε τουλάχιστον από την 21-6-1999 και αφότου διεκόπη η προαναφερθείσα τηλεοπτική εκπομπή στο ΤΗΛΕΤΩΡΑ την πλαστότητα του παραπάνω εγγράφου και συγκεκριμένα ότι αυτό είχε συνταχθεί και υπογραφεί από τον Νικόλαο Αεράκη, που φέρονταν ως Κλαδάρχης και Ταξιάρχος, αφού ουδέποτε υπηρέτησε έλληνας αξιωματικός στο στρατό με το όνομα αυτό και το οποίο είχε το αναφερόμενο στο διατακτικό της παρούσας περιεχόμενο, παρά ταύτα έκανε χρήση αυτού: α) κατά το από 15 έως 20 Νοεμβρίου 1999 χρονικό διάστημα δια της τοποθετήσεως αντιγράφου αυτού στις θυρίδες των βουλευτών του Ελληνικού Κοινοβουλίου και β) στις 20-11-1999 δια της παραδόσεως του σε πρόσωπα που βρίσκονταν στα γραφεία το πολιτικού κόμματος ΕΕΛΚ, μεταξύ των οποίων ο Κωνσταντίνος Τσίτουρας… Όπως ό ίδιος ο κατηγορούμενος αναφέρει απολογούμενος, μετά από σχετικό εξώδικο που έστειλε στην ΕΥΠ, έλαβε την απάντηση ότι το έγγραφο αυτό δεν έχει εκδοθεί από αυτή” ΓΙΑ ΤΟΥΣ ΛΟΓΟΥΣ ΑΥΤΟΥΣ Δικάζει παρόντος του κατ/νου Σωτήρη Σοφιανόπουλου του Αριστοτέλη Κηρύσσει αυτόν ένοχο ΔΙΑ 1)Συκοφαντική δυσφήμηση κατ’ εξακολούθηση 2) Χρήση πλαστού εγγράφου κατ’ εξακολούθηση Μετά την απαγγελία της αποφάσεως. Αφού άκουσε την Εισαγγελέα που πρότεινε να επιβληθεί σε βάρος του κατηγορουμένου που κηρύχθηκε ένοχος ποινή φυλακίσεως (1) ενός έτους για κάθε πράξη»

When searching, I only turn up related ethno-nationalist, far-right sites, not an independent source: https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=57ca4734e0b7fdbe&sxsrf=ADLYWIJwKBZE_YFv4tIiBFV2QE-iL98Dyg:1724482170038&q=%CE%A0%CE%A1%CE%A9%CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%94%CE%99%CE%9A%CE%95%CE%99%CE%9F+%CE%91%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%A9%CE%9D+%CE%91%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B8%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82+%2252803/04%22&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLqarZhI2IAxWSEGIAHQ9IHX4Q5t4CegQIJhAB&biw=1504&bih=612&dpr=2]

I argue removing this unless/until a reliable source can be provided. Psychopomplemousse (talk) 06:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC) Revised 06:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]