Talk:The Legend of Zelda/Archive 1

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General Discussion

Ura Zelda has indeed been released - it is the Zelda Master Quest available on the Wind Waker bonus disc. - Kwekubo

NO it has NOT. Ura Zelda translates as "another Zelda" and it was to have completely different dungeons ADDED ONTO the existing game in completely different locations to the old ones (much like BS Zelda: Kodai no Sekiban did), rather than the current released version with its remixed dungeons and removal of the old ones. It would be more like the original Zelda's Second Quest, in that the locations of the dungeons would be enormously changed. (Garrett, 19:02, 12 Apr 2005, GMT)

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Would a plot description/chronology be useful? Zarggg

That would be a good idea, but there is a problem with that: Even Nintendo doesn't know how the :games are connected. I have sen at least 5 different interpretation of the connection of the games. :There was a lot of talk about this on alt.games.nintendo.zelda... RealLink

Why not use an unofficial timeline then? There are some good ones found just by Googling: ::[1], ::[2], ::[3], [4], ::[5] (four pages long), ::[6] (eight pages long), and ::[7]. Some are pretty bad, but there are a few jewels in there. Zarggg

I hope my edits concerning the chronology (fans disagree, no dogma from Nintendo, here's a suggested order) are helpful. At the least, they are truthful; at the most, a bit wordy. Does anyone have a reference for the statement (which I didn't write), "The Zelda that was initially believed to be in [development for the GameCube using] realistic computer graphics will be another Zelda game?"

(Such belief was no doubt spawned by (1) the fact that the GameCube permitted it, (2) the Nintendo 64 Zelda games were as realistic as the platform could render, (3) developers' trends (other games were seeking a realistic look), and finally (4) Nintendo released a mesmerizing screenshot of realistic, 3D rendered models of Link and Ganon locked in combat.)

I ask because, as much as I hoped for such a game, the first three reasons proved flawed (though I was foremost among the lobbyists for realism), and perhaps those models have already been put to use in Super Smash Bros. Melee. Indeed, that screenshot may have been part of SSBM while it was in development. Thanks! Interdigital

Um, how do you have A Link to the Past after all those other titles? The characters in A Link to the Past are the ancestors of those in Zelda for the NES - this is said by Nintendo in various A Link to the Past promotional materials, box art, Nintendo Power Magazine, etc, as well as the pun in the title itself. Please give some info. Andrevan

As the article noted, Miyamoto has stated that LttP takes place after the two NEs games. I know that it makes little sense, but that's his take on the subject. Admittedly, Miyamoto seems a little disconnected from the storylines of his games - he seems to be much more focused on concept and gameplay, and probably considers details of the plot to be of lesser importance.

Khanartist

Okay, I finally tracked down the source of the chronology confusion, ie that LttP takes place after the first game. It comes from an interview he did with the Swedish magazine Superplay, in whch he stated that LttP was the true sequel to LoZ. Taken out of context, it muddies the timeline waters, but he's actually saying this in reference to how different Zelda 2 was from the rest of the series. He was disappointed in Zelda 2, and ensured that LttP would feature LoZ's gameplay. It's not a chronological sequel, but a conceptual sequel.Khanartist

That makes sense. Will you change the article to reflect your research? Theanthrope 20:26, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

That makes sense now. I was sure that LttP took place before the NES Zeldas, and clearly it does. Andrevan

I'm not so sure the Chronology section is that necessary in this section, as it is purely imaginary. Fan theory websites are more suited for that kind of thing.--Illitariat 23:57, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Has anyone noticed how in most of the paired Zelda games on the same console (excluding the Oracle titles, which are directly connected), the second title is radically different in either story, placing or gameplay? Setokaiba 22:01, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

This is a well-known trend in Zelda games. In the first game they "explore" the technology of the new console and what it can or can't do, and in the second they expand upon that and look at the storyline and such more, and have a much more fantastical game. While Link's Awakening might seem to break from this trend, there is some evidence that LA was originally an "LTTP2" and then redeveloped for the Game Boy format. Look at the picture in the linked discussion, and note the undeniable similarities between its overworld map and that of LTTP. NO Zelda game ever has its overworld that similar to a previous entry, unless it was a direct sequel. That is my theory, that originally LA was a sort of "LTTP2" and then was edited. After all, in 1992 they probably were already considering planning for the end of the SNES's lifespan, and so chose the Game Boy, perhaps already knowing even back then that at some point they would make a new and compatible Game Boy unit to give the game a longer lifespan (as it is, you can play it on the GBA, so it's lifespan has been long indeed). Or, at least, that is my theory, and there's some pretty significant evidence towards it... (Garrett, 19:02, 12 Apr 2005, GMT)

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Are you sure Tolkienian legend was the inspiration for LoZ?(Could you then say that for any medieval fantasy story?) I saw in a Discovery channel interview that Shigeru Miyamoto was heavily inspired by his explorations as a boy in the forests surrounding his childhood home in Kyoto, he even mentions one of his inspirations, a beautiful lake he suddenly found in the middle of the woods, and which according to him, in one way or another is always present in the Zelda games. Kreachure 20:34, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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Glad you're interested. As I see no opposition or more reliable sources than Miyamoto himself, I'll go ahead and make the changes I mentioned. Also, I noticed it's under Plot, which is a little bit awkward, as well as those japanese culture references, which are mainly unfounded, so for clarity's sake, I will remove them until somebody has enough interest to insert it properly again. Kreachure 23:33, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

TSA's most recent edits

Too much information was stripped in these edits - there is a chronology that can be assembled from the Zelda developers' quotes and such. Andre (talk) 01:31, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Yes I noticed his cuts. You're probably right, but most come from vague off-hand references in interviews on 20+ different websites. So it's hard to keep on top of what's fact and what's just fan invention. So ideally there'd be a reference link for each of these contentious points so people can click through and read it for themselves. Master Thief Garrett 03:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's also clear evidence for part of the fan chronology based on manuals, boxes, and that sort of thing. Official quotes directly contradict this evidence. I guess it's a matter of what you take as canon. Deco 04:17, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, put another way, which is more official, some words on the back of a box written by some writeup guy or other, often supsceptible to translation discrepancies, or a statement out of the mouth of Miyamoto/Aunoma, the guys who actually created the game? I'd say that if Miyamoto says something with a sense of finality, then his word is law. Whereas for some parts of the chronology he says that he himself doesn't really know, so for those cases other sources could be easily accepted as well. Master Thief Garrett 05:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hey, this is the first time I'm using a talk page on wikipedia, and I like to join in on the chronology discussion. I personally think chronology is pretty unimportant for an article about the Zelda games because there seems to be a lack of it. To me, it seems more of a discussion that ultimately doesn't affect future games. I'm suggesting that "Chronology" be removed from the main page and into a seperate article. Another option would be moving chronology to a later part of the article. I consider the history of the Zelda series more important than possible chronologies. - Reyontoyeny

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Considering, without hesistation, I would say I know the most about Zelda than any other person on earth, I removed stuff that was unfounded and based in questionable materials.

The purpose of Wiki is to give out fact, not fiction. We do not need ANY timeline theories here, the only point we should get across is:

1) There is some form of a timeline 2) It is a source of controversy 3) There are issues over what counts as canon

Getting into the details will just confused the average person. We simply need to focus on Miyamoto's quote that there is a master document for the timeline, Eiji Aonuma saying he will make the timeline "fixed", the argument of fans over what the timeline is, and whether or not there is only one, and finally, what sources should fans use when constructing the timeline.

As for the other stuff I edited - I fixed up dates and official credits to certain titles. I also went through the character entries and fixed some inaccuracies and wording. For example, Ganon is just the nickname of Ganondorf according to Miyamoto, the two names can be interchangeable.

The OoT entry had this crap about some Race War. That does not need to be in that entry. I changed it to be "The Fierce War", as called by the in-game text, and simply said it took place before OoT and the King unified the country, that's all.

There are others, but I'm not done yet. Some morons made a GANNON-BANNED entry, then it was merged with this, then they tried to make another one and the entry got locked...so I just made sure the one put here was accurate...but whatever, it's not important.

If you have any questions about edits or things that may need editing, IM me at SolidTSASnake. Whoever did the new Zelda and The Minish Cap entry, great job. I didn't find one thing wrong with them (when I checked).

Also, to that Ura Zelda question: The original Zeruda no Densetsu: The Hyrule Fantasy Famicom Disk has two sides, and ther 2nd side is called "Ura-Zelda". It's just the generic name for "Another Zelda". There were two 64 DD Zelda titles - Ura-Zelda which we got as Master Quest, and another one that never came out that had totally new dungeons, new overworld, etc. Some of it can still be access with the GameShark Beta codes for Ocarina of Time, such as the demolished Hyrule Field after a Tornado hits. - TSA) 04:46, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Holy Hyrule, I just realised, you're TSA himself!!! Well, that's certainly proof enough that you know your Zelda! You're certainly right about keeping it to a minimum. If people want more, Google will be happy to provide a heap of theories. I think that ALL timeline content should be in this topic ONLY. I'm fairly sure it is, but I think there was at least one other bit flying around (was it on the OOT page?) ...so what you've done is fine!

That's interesting about Ura Zelda. I was under the impression that the bits touted as "Beta Zelda" were of the *original* OOT, and that OOT's release hugely predated the creation of the Ura Zeldas, but you could be right. As for the disk flipping, does that mean you don't need to finish the first quest and/or enter "ZELDA" as your name like in the cart versions? Interesting...

As for the GANNON-BANNED info, well, I'm sure you're flattered an' all, but I certainly couldn't see how much value it had. It's a private joke, many Zelda sites don't even know about the Rules, and thus its demotion to a subsection here I suppose is the best that can be done for it. Master Thief Garrett 00:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, why is TSA famous? I think I've seen him as a sage on the Nintendo.com forums, but that doesn't really mean anything. Andre (talk) 21:24, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

TSA is famous for systematically going through all the Zelda games and claiming the world record for speedrunning them. He's probably best known for his 5hr 4min run of Ocarina of Time, and due to new tricks recently learned, is going back to get a sub 5 hour run made. He's also got a Zelda 1 record, a WindWaker record, some 4 swords records, the Minish Cap record... he's stated that his goal is to hold the record for every single Zelda game made (except the cdi ones). He's also quite involved in the fan community, excessively detailed when it comes to analysing story and game information, thoroughly knowledgeable-- the list goes on. It's my estimation that aside from Miyamoto and Aonuma, he knows more about the games and series than anyone. I wonder if TSA deserves an article of his own around here... he is getting a name for himself... Fieari 13:34, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah - Some guy made the article, then he made the sub-section. I had to register this name cuz somebody was posing as me, so now this is me, no questions. Anyway, I found it odd, too, you could just turn over the famicom disk and play the 2nd Quest. It actually says "SIDE A" and "SIDE B" in English. The manual refers to SIDE B as "Ura Zelda".

As for Beta OoT...it would be awesome go get development notes from Late 1997-summer 1998 for Ocarina of Time. A lot of things could be revealed if such a resource were made avaiable. --TSA 07:02, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll have to look into more about how FDS data works. If there was really enough data on a single side for one entire game, why weren't games of the time very long, to conform with the cartridge version limits?

Unlesss someone pulls a StarFox2 on us, this won't happen. Certainly, if nothing else, it appears that at least 35% of the game was completely redesigned/removed in the course of its creation, not to mention the "Alpha Quest" that's only in screenshots! The other noteworthy major redesign would be that of the Oracles, from three down to two, and that was done when Seasons was officially at 70% completion! It's sad to think of all that must have been thrown away in that cut... Master Thief Garrett 08:30, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

About GANNON-BANNED

I don't get why so many people think it is obscure. It is a common use at Zelda Universe, Zelda Legends, Ganon's Tower, Nintendo.com' Nsider Forums, GameFAQs, my own forum, and numerous other sites.

Some sites abhor it. Some fans abhor it. But it doesn't make it irrelevant. At the very least, it's a term used by NOA folks to talk about Zelda mistakes now. So I don't get how that is obscure. Go to IGN forums - some dude just made a new GANNON-BANNED thread. Seriously, more people know about it than don't. The only people who want it gone are 1) People I offended with it or 2) People who are jealous.

If you think it should go cuz you're "elitist" or something, ha. You don't get much more elitist in Zelda than me, so take a seat. And yes, I meant to be rude to the person who edited out my stuff. Vote all you want, NOA will send an e-mail to Wiki admins to perma-keep the article if you keep erasing it.

Thanks

Yes, thanks indeed! It shows it is out there. I suggested it be deleted as I didn't really know how used it was (not used at any of the Zelda forums I frequent), but if Zelda Universe and Nsider use it that's darned good enough for me!!! Those two are the big ones!

Maybe there should be a "QuickPoll" thing on the matter, so others don't think that it remains entirely due to an oligarchy of all you big biased webmasters throwing your weight around. This way, democracy deems its fate!

And as for being a Zelda elietist, I'd say TSA wins that award. Come on, he argues about the use of "the" in names! Not that I care, I think it's a good thing to uphold! Master Thief Garrett 23:06, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dude, it's not about being elitist. It's about how useful that info is. Please, take it from a neutral point of view. First, you are not the owner of the Topic, as you should know. Therefore, you must not take any other's opinnion to the trash and keep yours as the right one. Second: Nintendo of America has no power over Wikipedia, neither over me. So I should say that if you have nice contacts there (what's not that ethical to use this kind of influence in a place like this) just keep them for yourself. And also, you do not have any right to call me a "moron" in the first place, I think you should just be a little polite, mainly at my Talk Page. I've trying to improve his place, as I know it's your intention, but I see there are more people here intersted in it to be removed, of xourse if there be a poll you'll use your army of zelda-fans friends to vote it NOT TO. Well. I'm just using common-sense and a neutral point of view, wich you are not! -Imperator 00:15, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Um, an anonymous IP wrote this, not TSA. It was TSA who called you a moron. Just a thought...

About the NOA threatening, well, um, yes, um, yes I doubt NOA is really going to be too concerned. It's not like it's a misrepresentation of their copyrighted creations. I think TSA and (this guy) went a little overboard there. I didn't want to be the one to say it, but now you have, yes I'll second that.

Oh! You have a VERY good point about the poll! Yes there is a possibility to fudge the voting. Hm. Um. Yes. I'd forgotten about the problem of the overly-loyal fans, as we've already seen demonstrated by the constant deletion/replacement/deletion/replacement of the G-B article to begin with. So much for my perfect argument-solving idea!

I'm still very much on the "delete it!" front, but if it's really going to cause so many issues maybe we should just both drop it and leave it be. Since it looks like neither side's going to win, and as you say a poll won't work either... and at any point this could boil over with some very nasty things being said. Master Thief Garrett 00:27, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous users can't vote on VfDs or binding polls, and users with very small amounts of edits are seen as sockpuppets. Pages voted to be deleted on VfD don't need to be voted on again if they are recreated. Andre (talk) 18:43, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

In the Chronology section...

(NOTE: This interview has since been revealed to have been mistranslated. Nintendo of America, Inc no longer endorses the quote and Shigeru Miyamoto says it is not the timeline nor was this the timeline he meant to convey)

Does anyone have a source for this? I sent it in to the www.zeldalegends.com mailbag and got two responses that pretty much anything can be on Wikipedia. I figured that if TSA watches this page he wouldn't leave anything false here, and I'd love to know that this is true because it fits ever so well into a logical Zelda timeline (>_<).

I've heard this and seen the source; I think it was... GameSpot? I can't remember offhand where I read it. However, supposedly several independent people have re-translated it and supposedly supported the initial translation. I'd love to to confirm or deny it, but... I'd be no good in doing so. The Missing Link 01:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen the original text, but basically, the japenese language has no plural form of words. Thus, "hundreds" and "one-hundred" is said exactly the same way. Thus, I can certainly see them no longer supporting the "one-hundred" quote, as "hundreds" is obviously the accurate translation. The japanese statement wouldn't change though.

Again, I haven't seen the original text, and this is mere speculation. Fieari 01:24, August 9, 2005 (UTC) Forget me, I thought you were talking about something else. Blargh. Silly me. Fieari 01:26, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Hey, it was actually the webmaster of the current Zelda.com, Andy Hartpence, who told me the storyline stuff was incorrect that was posted in Nintendo Power and on Zelda.com. Also, from speaking with Eiji Aonuma last week, that quote no longer applies to the timeline, so it shouldn't even be cited anymore. TSA 3:50pm PDT September 28th, 2005 (UTC)

The mention of but one timeline is trully biased, even if it's said that said timeline is not official... I haven't found the timeline I made (it's not the one called "zithyan" in here, I know that because that guy proposes a different version to the one I, as a Zelda fan, suggest)... I know that with no official timeline mine isn't neccesarrily right but based upon the words I chose, it's plausible and, the only and final judge is Miyamoto himself... Instead of erasing alternate timelines they must be allowed, after all, the more timelimes shown the better the reader's understanding of a lack of consensus gets... As an extra-official timeline my offer might be thought of as irrational, capricious our mistaken, but the other timeline has no better standing whatsoever yet it's displayed... Let the reader and Miyamoto choose...

What I don't understand is why such a huge amount of the Chronology section has become opinion or assumptions, which don't belong in this article. So much stuff in there can even be disproven, or something different has been stated by someone from Nintendo (I believe Aonuma said that the Four Swords series is part of the same universe as the other games, and TSA can confirm this). I would add comments saying that much, but once again, no such thing belongs in this article. Does anyone mind if some chunks of that are taken out? --Impossible 10:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any actual evidence to support the suggestion that Link's Awakening's place in the timeline may have been retconned? If the ending of the Oracle games is the only basis for this, I think it's pretty flimsy and needs to be removed. 66.126.191.98 18:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC) 4 January, 2006

Yes, there is. Official Japanese LA DX Website.--TSA 20:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Nature of the Protagonist

We already went through this with the chronology section. While we must agree to disagree, this is no place for fan theories. We all know there are multiple Links, until proven which is the right explanation, we don't care about people's theories here at Wiki. I removed those theories because it is confusing and it has no place here - go to a Zelda Forum on a site.

The only thing in this section should be info on Link's nature, like his characteristics, why he doesn't speak, and why Miyamoto named him Link - which is what I did in the edit.

I also fixed up some of history stuff, it was a little rigid and some stuf was outdated (We don't need to know Twilight Princess was unveiled at E3 2004 anymore...what is important is it comes out in November and it has a title and what we know so far about the gameplay and the development.

I added a bit about Hot Topic in the pop culture, since the SoaD thing is a bit off the radar.

I also added a holder for the Comics/Manga/Doujinshi. I don't have time now to write it all up, but it should be mentioned on this page, not its own (it has its own page now). ~ TSA, July 1, 2005

It may be worth noting that "Link" is a Germanic name meaning 'Left-Handed' and that Link is always portrayed as a left-handed hero... (though many action-heroes are left-handed these days) - Anon, 13 Oct 2005

Shigeru Miyamoto at E3 2006 revealed that Link is lefty because he (Miyamoto) is a lefty. I have it on tape. --TSA 01:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

About the Gannon-Banned info

Dude, it's totally ridiculous. It's only a private joke, as said here. I've been a Zelda fan for years and never ever heard about this thing. I'm not removing it again since I know someone's gonna rv it, but someone's gotta do something on that. A private joke doesn't add any info at all, and I can't see how that could ever be useful in an encyclopedia. There are so many facts about the game, what's with this Gannon-Banned guy who wants to promote his own site/forum/whatever? -Imperator 01:37, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Look, I don't know who you are or what your problem is with the G-B secion, but YOU MAY NOT talk like this to another Wikipedian!!! You have spammed up several pages (this one, TSA's Talk, etc.) with this samey complaint. If you actually take the time to read the messages below that you re-flowed with a new header, you will see that TSA didn't add it, others did, and he merely rewrote it to be accurate.

Continue complaining and smack-talking him and some steps will have to be taken. I cannot say what those steps may be, or whom they will be taken by, but they WILL be taken. I have spoken. Master Thief Garrett 02:19, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, so we have a censorer here. I made that post only with the intention of improving this place, ok? If you feel yourself the owner of this thing, I'm sorry telling you're not. And none's going to take any step on me, first: because they do not punish anyone here (mainly w/ good intentions as me), second: because I didn't do anything wrong, I'm just questionning the use of a JOKE inside an article, I don't care who did put it there, I'm just saying it's totally unnecessary for a game like that. And you are none to give orders to me, either and any discussion, or make any threats, ok? Just keep doing your work and I'll do mine, I might come back here to discuss at any time with anyone because this place is free to talk, if you can't stand different points of view (I did read the whole thing before post the first time, and there are people here that agree that this G-B is just too unnecessary to deserve a whole section about) you should go to anywhere, but here. You're not the owner of the article, nor the owner of the encyclopedia. Clear enough, I think. -Imperator 06:59, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing some of the context, but there must be some misunderstanding here. I didn't read Luis's comments as a personal attack on anyone; he's simply saying that the Gannon-Banned award is non-notable, which is true. It's known by much fewer people Zelda games themselves. I support removal of this section. The spelling controversy gets enough coverage in Ganon. It's also typically considered rude to edit others' comments on talk pages — if you feel there is a need, ask the author to do so. Deco 07:56, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes, the only other context thing is on User:TSA where he made a similar comment. I'm sure none of the three were meant to be an attack, but they somewhat sounded like one. And we don't want anyone to take any undue offense due to indicental miswording.

As for the editing, no I wouldn't normally do that... but it was a swear word, and I was under the impression that swearing was banned on Wikipedia(?), but, again, you may be right.

But back to the point at hand, which was supposed to be the validity of G-B being here. I myself voted for its deletion, but the vote was virtually 40-60 (with a lot of people saying Merge rather than Delete) but things have gone completely out of anyone's control. But anyway, on to the summary...

First, the points in favour of it remaining...:

• it's gotten bigger than most and even Nintendo addressed it at Camp Hyrule 2004. Therefore no (potential) article about Camp Hyrule 2004 would be complete without G-B, so where do they link? Back here.
• "All your base are belong to us" already has an article and is now probably of no smaller cult status importance; it is similarly an inside joke, as only those who've played/know of the joke will recognise this line.
• people keep re-adding the content each time it gets deleted, so it might as well stay to avoid an edit war by loyal but misguided G-B fans

And now the "die thread die!" reasons...:

• Yes it is a private joke
• Fairly obscure at that
• Most current-generation Zelda fans are unaware of the origin of the joke
• There should probably be another reason(s) here

So while I too believe it should probably go, it will likely lead edit wars. Perhaps someone should set up a "QuickPoll" about it? Darn, I had a link to that a minute ago, oh well... Well, anyway, that would be a good way of seeing the community's opinion on the matter. Since the Delete thing didn't really resolve anything. Master Thief Garrett 08:10, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How about someone writes an article about Camp Hyrule 2004 and moves it there? It's more work but has a better chance of making everyone happy. There's a bit of info at Camp Hyrule. Oh, and also, there isn't any ban on swearing (even in article text where appropriate, see fuck), although one might reason that this talk page is one click away from an article of interest to children. Deco 23:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's another good possibility, although I'd sooner have Camp Hyrule cover ALL years. I don't know that there's really enough happening in each year to have something for each, without it crossing over into fancruft rambling. But see the opinion at the very very bottom of this page for another webmaster's view on its relevance.

That's interesting about the swearing... yes, a child could potentially stumble on here expecting people to be talking about how cool Zelda games are etc. But if the rules don't ban it, I guess it's a grey area. hmmm... Master Thief Garrett 23:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hm, cool seeing the discussion is in normal temperature now =D Well, I think they could create a Topic for this G-B thing and just link it at the SEE ALSO section, heh? Everyone should be happy, and I think they could shorten their pride a little and watch the thing from a neutral point of view. The joke isn't even funny btw :P - Imperator 23:54, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Giving G-B it's own topic is, like it or not, a non-option! A page for it was made, VfD'd, made again, locked, etc. So I severely doubt there is a way to re-open it.

Personally, I'd sooner see it occupy a space here rather than on its own page, as it will never be anything other than a very minor page, whereas here a small section is fine. There has to be a limit of how minor/small something is to deserve its own page--that's what 60% of VfD issues are about, things that branched out when they maybe shouldn't have. But that's just my POV.

As for the joke being "funny", it's a matter of opinion as with any comedic thing. It's not at all supposed to be a joke on its own (although the Letters and List section are fairly funny!), but more a way of laughing at someone (in a not unkind way) if they get something Zelda-oriented horribly wrong. Master Thief Garrett 00:14, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In TSA's defense, I can name a number of other sections here that you might as well as delete if it is decided that his G-B article be deleted. The online comic articles come to mind. What use do they have? User:ElvenRaptor 25 Apr 2005

Impersonations

It's pretty obvious when the person doesn't sign with a digital signature that it's not the person they claim to be. I personally do not care if G-B stays on the Zelda entry. I thought it should have its own small page and not cramp the Zelda page. I also, personally, think the majority of the Chronology section is point less. Having quotes and stuff is going to confuse more people, just simplify it to there is a timeline, we don't know what it is, stay tuned, though some fans still live in denial and believe they control the timeline themselves (people who say no timeline exists).

As for most of the pages, I spent about 20 hours on Wiki 3 weeks ago fixing up a lot of stuff, and I used the Japanese games/manuals to correct everything. I actually personally ran some stuff by some NOAs to make sure it was acceptable, and it got the nod. Zelda.com's Encyclopedia should also be updated SOMETIME as I totally redid all the entries for them to be accurate.

Anyway, back to G-B, I thought it was funny somebody made an article for me, but now its getting me in trouble, so I'd rather it just end. Leave it or delete it...but let it be final. I don't need GANNON-BANNED to be my legacy or something, when all it was, to me, was a short fad and now just a historical piece for those who cared about it. I don't even use it anymore. I only care about being known as a fan who tried to further truth in the community, as well as tried to promote the Legend of Zelda name to expand its popularity, through my site, speed runs and other stuff.

Anyway, if I ever find out who really tried to post as me, I'll deal with them. --TSA 20:51, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Zelda = RPG?

The Legend of Zelda doesn't fit the standard role-playing game genre. I'd consider it more of an action-adventure game. It's missing the crucial character creation aspect (in all the Zelda games I've played, at least). Thoughts? --Poiuyt Man (talk) 11:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, IMHO Zelda definitely can be considered a roleplaying game. Character creation, though used in many roleplaying games, is not essential to a roleplaying game. There are a lot of games out there that define the characters beginning stats, especially console games like Secret of Mana, the Final Fantasy series or of course the Zelda series, but also some PC games like e.g. Gothic. Additionally, an RPG doesn't even need to contain any visible stats at all, as it doesn't define itself by a set of rules. What (IMHO) makes an RPG an RPG is that it features a mixture of fighting, collecting, quest accomplishing, storytelling and (most importantly) dialogues with various characters. And this I'd say definitely is accomplished by the Zelda series. Genesis 12:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe a more accurate term to describe what I meant would be be "character-customization" rather than "character-creation". I would agree that an RPG includes item-collecting and questing, and to a lesser extent fighting, dialogue, and storytelling (MMOGs often lack the latter two). However, a large aspect of most definite-RPGs is some sort of class- or skill- based system that has a significant impact on how the game is played. The Zelda games have a more-or-less linear character progression system, with slight variations on which item is picked up first, and how many heart containers are obtained. This is the basic formula of an action game, and is seen in just about every first-person shooter today. The dialogue and story elements do set it apart from these games, but these elements have always been found in point-and-click adventure games. Thus, I think "action-adventure" is an appropriate title. Another more recent game that would fit this genre would be the PS2 Grand Theft Auto series (although it's a bit more action-y, it does share the freedom of exploration, quest-based system, and a fairly linear character progression mostly based on weapons). --Poiuyt Man (talk) 13:49, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

There is no general consensus in the world on this point, so we simply can't say anything one way or the other, regardless of what explanation we have to back it up. Deco 14:52, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Then I propose the following intro:

The Legend of Zelda (ゼルダの伝説 シリーズ Zeruda no Densetsu Shirīzu; often shortened to just Zelda) is a series of video games created by Nintendo and industry legend Shigeru Miyamoto that began in February 1986. The games are set in a fantasy world, and the gameplay generally consists of a mixture of action, adventure, and role-playing. It is considered one of the most influential video game franchises ever created.

What do you think? --Poiuyt Man (talk) 23:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds very good. It leaves the whole mess entirely up to the RPG page to clear up. Master Thief Garrett 04:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

You may want to decide soon because of this - Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal/7. They're planning on deleting character articles from ALL RPGs because of vanity issues from MMORPGs. That means that Link and Princess Zelda will be gone. ~ Hibana

THe legend of zelda is not and RPG, because RPG's include level gaining. - Abhorsen123 00:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Those who believe that Zelda is an RPG obviously contest this point. Also, Zelda 2 had experience and levels, but well, it was weird. Deco 01:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

One could go on and on about the individual RPG elements that Zelda does or does not have, but that is not how you classify art into a genre. Genre classification is a matter of subtle nuances like what previous works influenced the work in question, what its most comparable works are classified as, etc. You normally cannot include or exclude a work to a genre based on just one characteristic. There is a lot of "gray area," but the idea is that you are striving for a best-fit classification. In other words, simply "having RPG elements" does not make a game an RPG; but when RPG elements are the dominant characteristics of the game, above and beyond any other non-RPG characteristics, then it is an RPG. Since Zelda is the absolute archetype of an action/adventure game, and its action/adventure elements are the dominant characteristics of the game above and beyond any RPG elements, it seems that calling it an RPG simply because it also has some of those elements is rather misleading and defeats the point of genre classification to begin with. Nintendo's "Adventure Series" began with Zelda, IIRC, so again, trying to call it an RPG is clear case of missing the forest for the trees. Genre classification is about the overall focus or theme of gameplay mechanics, not any one specific detail. --The Yar 06:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Nintendo classifies it as an Action/Adventure. I think that pretty much all that matters. Hyrule 21:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Article title: "The Legend of Zelda" or "The Legend of Zelda series"?

Another suggestion: move The Legend of Zelda series to The Legend of Zelda, and move The Legend of Zelda to The Legend of Zelda (game) (edit: maybe (1986 game)). I think the series overview would be what most users expect when they type in "The Legend of Zelda". --Poiuyt Man (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right about this, but I also think the current names are more accurate. A notice at the top of The Legend of Zelda might not hurt though. I'll add this. Deco 02:47, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

That notice looks good. I reworded it to say "the first" instead of "the original". Just because that sounds better somehow... plus people will often say "arcade original" and then all the other games are ports of it. There is no such case of that in Zelda (until now with the rereleases) so I think this wording is better. IMO of course, your opinions may vary.

He's right about that game coming up first, but, there's probably no reason to go moving it without need. Plus we'd need to fix a heap of links, and any time someone name-guesses a link to the original game by merely typing it in and then previwing to make sure it isn't red, they'll end up mis-linking to the wrong page. Master Thief Garrett 04:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Also I named The Legend of Zelda series races, The Legend of Zelda series characters, etc. to deliberately match the name of the core page. If you change that one, they wouldn't match any more. Not that that matters, but just a thought... Master Thief Garrett 04:42, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I can see the merits of keeping the "series" suffix. However, if the page is indeed moved at any point in the future, I'd be more than willing to fix all the redirects and links and such. I find repetitive, menial tasks strangely relaxing. Just drop me a line on my talk page if this needs doing (or for any other article, actually). --Poiuyt Man (talk) 09:57, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

hehe... masochists are always welcome on Wikipedia... I'll keep you in mind... hehe... Master Thief Garrett 10:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

This same task can be done fairly easily with the Pywikipedia bot. The solve_disambiguation.py script with the right command-line options does a lot of the work for you. Deco 20:38, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Really? That's... weird... but it makes sense I guess... I doubt I'd be able to work out how to use such a tool though... Master Thief Garrett 23:36, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Miyamoto childhood

Could someone provide a reference for this paragraph?

The Legend of Zelda was principally inspired by Miyamoto's explorations as a young boy in the forests surrounding his childhood home in Kyoto. Miyamoto has mentioned that several elements of his 'adventures' through those woods were taken into the Zelda games, like a lake he suddenly found one day in the middle of the forest, which at the time surprised him for being a totally new discovery for him, and which according to him, has been a recurrent element in all of the Zelda games (both the lake and the exploration and discovery factors).

I can't find anything on Google relating this particular experience of his. This biography [8] tells of his discovery of a cave, and that's all I've been able to dig up. --Poiuyt Man (talk) 10:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to give this a week or so before replacing it with the cave story. --Poiuyt Man (talk) 14:24, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

The cave story certainly is more authoritative, yes... of course it could be that both are true. After all if he was always exploring these woods he probably made many "discoveries" (from a child's eyes of course)... Master Thief Garrett 15:22, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems the story was added[9] by Kreachure, who hasn't been active since December 2004. --Poiuyt Man (talk) 22:55, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Wow, it seems there's finally some interest in this, this discussion page is ten times longer than I last left it! Indeed, I was the one who put the lake reference, the same day I watched a Discovery channel production many months ago, which accounted the history of videogames, which included interviews with very important game creators, like Alexey Pajitnov (and his wacky adventures with the KGB), and, yes, Shigeru Miyamoto. For the sake of (your) believability, he was interviwed in what seemed a very traditional japanese house mat, while he was attempting to show some ability on playing a guitar. Not only does he talk about the "fantastic" finding of the lake in the woods, which according to him is a prime example of his inspirations of Zelda, but the documentary also shows a montage of such finding of the lake (with typical japanese orange fish and all), and then compares it to a 'scene' of what I strongly believe is the very first Zelda game, with Link battling beside a river. I am not only relying on my often regretful memory now, but also on your trust, for I have no physical proof of this documentary, but I think for once I am right on this one. So I will be expecting your response to see how we, if at all, could put this humble but honest fact back on this page. Thanks. Kreachure 28 June 2005 19:07 (UTC)

That's really interesting. I'd love to get access to a copy of that. Based on the info you've given, you may be referring to a The Learning Channel documentary called Gameheadz:

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/393/393503p1.html

Am I right? Deco 28 June 2005 20:08 (UTC)

Right on the money, thanks! Well, now that I have some tangible proof, I guess we can put it back in along with the cave story, simply because it's info from the man himself. I think both stories are worth mentioning as inspirations.

Also, I'm putting forward some very vital info about Zelda, which I wish would be taken into consideration (check out the "Vital facts" section here). Kreachure 3 July 2005 15:47 (UTC)

GANNON-BANNED move

I've moved the GANNON-BANNED section to the Camp Hyrule article. I realise this was perhaps a little too bold with the current wars over it, but I hope everyone finds it to be an acceptable compromise. --Deco 23:35, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, the wars *were* a couple of weeks ago and things seem to have died down... except for the anon IPs that keep vandalising it... so it's probably best to leave it there. There is nothing wrong with being bold! --Master Thief Garrett 05:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree, this should be the best method to deal with this. I think now both parties should be satisfied, as the article still exists, but is placed where it fits. --Genesis 10:52, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Zelda DS not Four Swords

Altough it has been confirmed a DS Zelda Four Swords is in development, apparently it has also been confirmed that a non-Four Swords DS Zelda game is in development. Also, Nintendo have said that Capcom are not developing it like games like the Minish Cap, and it is being developed by Nintendo itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zooba (talk • contribs) 09:00, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

THANK GOD! Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures were virtually useless without three players. *Cough*CRYSTAL CHRONICLES!*Cough*

I've read on IGN that a DS Zelda game was in the works, but I have not seen it confirmed on either the Nintendo site or the official Zelda site. Can anyone find an *official* statement to this (i.e. on nintendo.com or zelda.com or an actual quote from someone involved in the project)? Note: I'm not bashing anyone. It seems logical that a Zelda game would be released on the DS. I'm just looking for a more official reference that I can read for myself. -- Jwinters | Talk 21:12, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[10] Zelda Universe's news article with the info Ian Moody 21:19, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

1. 1. Zelda.com and Nintendo.com aren't the best source for news. Especially Zelda.com (which isn't even run by a Zelda fan).

1. 2. Four Swords was great, and so was Minish Cap. And Capcom NEVER developed a Zelda game. It was the unfair doings of Nintendo and Capcom that hid the developer, who was Flagship - an independent developer funded by Capcom, Nintendo and Sega to be involved in some of their games. When it comes to the Four Swords, the Oracles and Minish Cap, they did all the work. -- A Link to the Past 22:48, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, Nintendo is not inclined toward making Zelda games for the Nintendo DS, because the Nintendo DS does not have enough buttons in order to use three items equipped. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.119.56.136 (talk • contribs) 21:46, November 25, 2005 (UTC)

Uhm... what kind of argumentation is that??? I believe that the former Gameboy's had even less buttons and I remember that I played Zelda games on them. The only thing that might NOT work would be a port of a Nintendo 64 game like OoT, as the N64 controller had quite some more buttons. (Still quite a shame, I'd love to play OoT on DS). By the way, you might want to add your signature to your comment. -- Genesis 09:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The wrong kind of argumentation. Unless he can provide a source from Nintendo stating that, I wouldn't put much weight in it. —Locke Cole ^{(talk) (e-mail)} 10:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass is the name of the new Zelda game for DS. It will be released in 2006! This info is from the GDC. --Michael Ray 19:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Dethl=Vaati?

Anyone remember when you fight the Nightmares at the very end of Links Awakening? The final Nightmare, Dethl, bears a resemblence to Vaati. If this takes place after Four Swords, then it is possible that this is a shadow of Vaati or that Vaati wanders the realm of dreams, haunting Link and his descendents for all time. Of course, he would have been defeated at the end of Link's Awakening, so he wouldn't be haunting the future generation of Links. But then again...What happened to the Wind Fish after Link's Awakening?

Interesting theory, but I think Vaati was made by Flagship. -- A Link to the Past 23:11, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

Merged content from Multiple Links Theory

I justed merged content from Multiple Links Theory as a result of the VfD there. --Deathphoenix 17:48, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Regarding External Links...

Am I correct in believing that we can all agree that the majority of the external links for this article are fansites? I would hope so. Is it fair, though, that only large, "super-sites" can get links in the external links sections? Sure, you would say that you have to put a hold on the number eventually, but I never saw the list grow too large. In my opinion, either everyone should have a chance for a link, or no one. However, you may say that the article links to the best/most helpful fansites on the Web. Suprisingly enough, the largest sites aren't always the best, and hits don't mean everything. Just some thoughts... (Ah, and one last thing. Even if the majority of the sites on the list are some of the best, "Zelda Elements" is on there, which hasn't been active in a long time! I can hardly see that site as being wonderfully useful!) ~Akira~ 12 June 2005

The important criteria to me for a site being listed is that it's a widely known and well-established, as well as having lots of useful information. A good example is Zelda Headquarters, which is old as dirt, popular, and comprehensive. Authoritativeness is most important, but there are so few official sites that we really have to back off on that. Also, it helps if a site, as well as being well-established, also provides a substantially different viewpoint or set of information from other sites on the list. Deco 05:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, you can determine a certain amount of authoritativeness with fansites. Zelda Legends, Zelda Universe and Ganon's Tower (that I know of, no doubt others exist) get hi-res packs of screenshots and promo art direct from the company. So if a fansite can earn that honour I'd say they make the grade all right! And as for the largest sites not always being the best... how does site become big and popular anyway? Well, by having great content. Which leads to a fanbase growing up and inspires more content. So if a site doesn't have very much unique content, I'd say it's not going to grow. Ever.

As for having different viewpoints, many of the lesser fansites have promising beginnings, but often finish up by weakly regurgitate info other sites have already stated and thought of, and sometimes even stoop so low as to summarise a theory by some GameFAQs nobody or other rather than focussing on the other angles of the story (in many cases, that the other 60% of Zelda fans don't agree with that theory). That's the problem, they appear identical to the hundreds of other obscure fansites, and have nothing much that jumps out saying, "Bookmark me! Visit me again!" unlike the larger sites. The big ones, despite reporting the very same facts or rumours, somehow end up being quite unique. Their exclusives help greatly; ZU has Behind the Rupees, ZL has its articles (I forget the name), PlanetNintendo had summaries of all the timeline (and other) theories, and so on. Master Thief Garrett^Talk 11:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As long as we're mentioning this "weak regurgitation", let me throw up a link to TSA's rant on Zelda fansites called "Pay Me for the Door Repair". Deco 04:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In popular culture mistake

I was reading this article, and found a mistake. The thing about the System of a Down song is that it's not by them. The song was used in a flash animation by Legendary Frog, and is apparently by The Rabbit Joint. For some reason a lot of people file share this song as a SoaD song, but you can check on Legendary Frog's website and the SoaD website, at least their message board. Just thought I'd point this out.

Thanks for the tip. I'll take care of this. Deco 05:13, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vital info missing!

Two tidbits:

• In many of his interviews, Miyamoto has referred to creating the Zelda games as an attempt to bring to life a "miniature garden" for players on every version of the game. [11] [12] [13]I think this fact is significant info that should be on the page.
• And speaking of vital info, there's no info on the reasons Miyamoto chose the name Zelda for the title even when she wasn't the main character. It is of course a nod to F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife, and nothing else, and because it sounded so good to him as a title, it has stuck for the entirety of the franchise. [14] [15] (It's mentioned as a secondary reason on the Princess Zelda page, but I believe as the very title of this page, it too deserves a good explanation here.)

I'll put these two by tomorrow if there are no objections.

Deletion of RPG characters.

As part of the present proposal to expand the criteria for speedy deletion, it has been suggested that all RPG characters that do not have a basis for existence in a book or other offline medium should be deleted. I suspect this was well-intentioned effort but seems unreasonably broad. Since this would seem to call for the elimination of all or nearly all articles in Legend of Zelda characters, I figure that this community needs to be made aware of the impact of this proposal. Voting is also up for this proposal.

See: Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal/7. --ZeWrestler 03:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

LoZ image at beginning of article

It's probably just me, but I think the image at the beginning of the article looks a bit... well, old. Maybe it could be the logo of the most recent Zelda game released, and each time a new one is released, the image could be updated? Link 05:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Except that the logo of each new game usually includes the subtitle as well, which would in no way be appropriate for a general article on the series. Fieari 06:05, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Well, this one did as well before it was edited, if you look at its image page. I think it's a very nice-looking image, though, not significantly worse than any "modern" one. Deco 21:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Zelda.com.

This should be removed from all articles. It is factually inaccurate, and created pointless debates with its poor translations (like the Miyamoto interview) and the terrible timeline. I'm going to take the liberty of removing crap from the Zelda articles right now. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:15, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Chronology

When did the chronology section become so bloated? I know there's a lot to cover, but a lot of it is speculation, and a lot of it is rehashing plot points described elsewhere. I propose that we move the bulk of the section to a new article, say, The Legend of Zelda (timeline), and provide a short summary of the issues here (there is a timeline, we don't know exactly what the timeline is although there are clues, it has been promised that the timeline will be cleared up). The new article could also present a sample timeline (the ZHQ timeline being the most well known amongst fans, if I'm not mistaken)... or two sample timelines, to show how they differ and exemplify the controversy.

I won't make such a major change without first seeing what you guys think. So, what do you think? Fieari 20:39, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Concur. Although I'm very much against having sample timelines because I don't think the fan community has come to the place where there is concensus on the issue. I could talk to ten different fans and get ten different timelines in return, so I don't think we should be in the business of promoting one or two or three over the many, MANY other possible timelines. I think we should stick to the facts, saying that certain games are linked or presumed to be linked, and then be done. This makes the process very quick and easy and ensures that we keep NPOV. The Missing Link 21:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)