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{{FTCmain|2008 Summer Olympics|1}}
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== Medal Count '''Rank''' ==

The medal count should not include the column "rank" The reason why is simple.

Since the 1904 when the American's created the system of awarding Medals, and ranking countries the Olympics have always been scored by total medals. It is worth noting however that the IOC has never ranked countries nor awarded a "winning country". That is in stark contrast to the fact that until 1936 the world and its media did unofficially award a winner, always related to Total Medals. During the 1904 games America did in fact also award a winner (itself) with a "team" gold medal.

The problem here is this - after the USA has dominated the Olympics since 1996 the world was ready for a new "winner". To this end the media and many people have decided to change the criteria to be just the gold medals. This movement started in the UK and quickly gained world support. This causes some controversy as the Olympics are now and have always been a team contest. That is the reason why every country is allowed to enter three competitors in all "individual" events.

There is a few important logical errors with the revisionist technique being applied today

1) Take the example that China wins the Gold, Silver and Bronze in some event. Since they all came from the same country does that mean the other canidates (Silver, Bronze) participation simply does not count? The spirit of the games is team unity with personal achivement noted. Hence the reason why the Olympics were also changed to become official venues for World Records, again the American's made the change in 1904

2) In both 1968 and 1912 the US had the highest Gold Medal count yet were considered World Wide as the runner ups. They were even noted that way within the US disproving conclusively the notion that the US changes the "rules" to make themselves winners. The fact is the rest of the world is doing just that, yet the American's have not called "foul". The simple fact is the American's all know who won and even if they had the criteria wrong that would mean they just added two more Olympic Victories to their countries name not just won. There is no other way but to accept either the US won the Olypmics 13 times (04, 20, 24, 28, 32, 48, 52, 68, 84, 96, 2000, 2004 and 2008) or, using the changed criteria, they have won the Olympics 15 times (04, 12, 64, 20, 24, 28, 32, 48, 52, 68, 84, 96, 2000 and 2004).

I feel if we apply the simplest answer then it is more likely that the UK spearheaded a media campaign to make themselves better in light of the games coming to London in 2012. The Americans had no motive to change the criteria being as when the controversy began they were behind in both Gold Medals and Total Medals. The American's place was soundly 2nd at the point, however by changing the criteria the UK were able to make themselves appear to be in 3rd place. The highest place they have ever achieved since the 1908 where they blantantly cheated.

3) In all other Wiki articles Rank is never mentioned, why suddenly do we mention in this one? I think the anti-America motives in this article are more than exposed when viewed in light of this fact.

4) America invented the ranking and medal systems during the 1904 Olympics. If they invented the system does it not also follow logic that they are the ones that know how it should be working? For over 100 years the US has stuck to awarding the winner by total medal count, which awards all atheletes not the few, and the entire entry and team rosters has been designed to work with that system. Did none of you ask yourself at any point "Why do 3 atheletes get to compete? Why not 2 or 4?" Did no one ever try to logic it out? I mean think. Lets assume that China had won Silver and Bronze in every single event but failed to win Gold in any. That would leave them with around 300 medals but no Gold. Now let us also asume that American managed only 3 Gold (the highest of anyone in this example) the entire games and not one single other medal making them Finish with a Total Medal Count of 3, and China with a Total Medal Count of 300. Can you honestly suggest that the world would consider the Americans Winners and China in 2nd or worse in that senario? If you can then you truly are not logical. It is obvious that the Chinese would be considered winners. And yet the same logic is not being applied to the current games. I seriously doubt that is by accident and I believe its clear who is behind the percieved mistake.

So with all that in mind, I suggest we simple remove the Rank, redo the table to match every other listed for the Olympics and leave it at that. You will never convince the American's they did not win the Olympics in 2008 because they know better. It is equally unlikely that the UK led media and its followers are going to concede that the American's won because that will mean they would have to admit to falsely accusing the Americans.

The way I see it, the author entered that table, sorted as it is, with Rank included with the motive to anger American's and express anti-American views.

He/she would have of course failed because American's would either just ignore him altogether or say "ok so now we have won 15 times instead of 13, no problem, we had a bad Olympics anyway"

Considering three different people have suggested that the Rank Field be removed I am removing that one column in the table - Well maybe not the freaking article is locked by an admin. How common is this becoming? Its a joke...

'''Since the article is locked then I third the request that the rank column be removed to align this article with all the other Wiki articles and eliminate the unnecessary controversy.'''

== Sports ==

Should we edit Foorball to says Football(Soccer) since the majority of viewers to this page are American. I clicked thinking this was American FOotball not soccer.
Add this for less confusion. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.223.104.222|98.223.104.222]] ([[User talk:98.223.104.222|talk]]) 23:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Majority of readers of English Wikipedia are Americans? Err, since there isn't any published official statistics, we shouldn't really hang to this statement. Anyway, the official Olympic Sports name is Football, so let's just stick to that. [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 05:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

:: There is publised Stats and what he stated is a fact. But, common sense alone would tell you he is right. Pendantic arguement. The point that NFL style football is not an Olympic sport is a valid point. No reason to change it

::In the calendar in 2008 Summer Olympics page it is shown as [[Football at the 2008 Summer Olympics|Football (soccer)]]. There should be no confusion anyway, as American Football is not an Olympic Sport --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 05:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
:One more comment. Please put new text under old text. i.e. '''new subjects go at the bottom of the page'''. When someone starts archiving the page comments, they will begin at the top, so please put the new stuff at the bottom. Thanks. --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 05:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Where is Track and Field in this list?([[User:Chazran|Chazran]] ([[User talk:Chazran|talk]]) 07:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC))

== Spelling of English Alphabet on Official Website of the Beijing Olympics ==

Why, seems to be, the Chinese are true friends of American (wrong) spelling?
Why they don't follow Hong Kong spelling? In Chinese Hong Kong they know better!

Should be I.E.: Equestrian Centre instead of Riding Center
Colour instead of Color
Centre instead of Center
... and many "mis takes" more...

:::In american english (the most common form), the spellings are different than in british english.

Why, pls. the Chinese prefer America? Namely U.S.?
What about Chinese Hong Kong, India, Bangla Desh, Pakistan, many African Coutries, Cyprus, Malta, Ireland and U.K.?

Where is the protest against this poor americinglish?

A pity that China seems to know the poor American only. Forgot culture of English???

: Where is the protest against surgeon who remove big part of your brain?
: Seriously: Get over it. And American English is far closer to Shakespeare's English than contemporary British English is. Not that it matters. Main point: American spelling makes more sense in an international context: take away the ''-ous'' from ''humorous'', and you get the noun -- just one of many exs.; but British punctuation is superior in most respects. A combo would be actually best. [[User:PeterH2|PeterH2]] ([[User talk:PeterH2|talk]]) 21:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

En francais: C'est dommage... <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.199.209.176|79.199.209.176]] ([[User talk:79.199.209.176|talk]]) 18:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

You forgot Australia as well...[[User:Zvyx|Zvyx]] ([[User talk:Zvyx|talk]]) 11:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

YOU IDIOT! They use American English because of how popular the U.S. is! Can you leave at that? And American Spellings are not "Wrong" they are different, like African people, and English People, they barely look anything alike, but they get along despite their difference.

What are you talking about Burgerman?? If the language is ENGLISH, it comes from ENGLAND. It is annoying to keep seeing people on the Internet use the American flag when there is a link to an ENGLISH translation, when an AMERICAN speaks ENGLISH during the opening ceremony of the Olympics, and when ENGLISH things are constantly reffered to as being AMERICAN.. such as Football, the Internet and oh,... the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

: "English" did not "come" from England. It "came" from Jutland, was renamed to "English" by the locals. The name is in reality misleading. American and English are no longer considered the same language just as Portugese and Spanish are no longer considered the same language. So you are right it is annoying to see people put the word English with an American Flag when they really mean American. The Internet was an American invention, the people who worked on the project were working for American companies who asked them to do so. Football can refer to an American sport (NFL) or an international one which the British used to call Soccer but stopped. Problem is, by the time the British stopped calling Soccer (Football)- Soccer the Americans had already invented and named another sport Football. That is how the name conflict was born.

How dare the Chinese use Amerenglish!

When all of you are done violating wiki's rules by making personal attacks; I'd like to state the English used at the Olympics is the Queen's English, that is the kind of British English used in every English speaking country bar America. [[User:Rotovia|Rotovia]] ([[User talk:Rotovia|talk]]) 10:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

: And in that point you would be absolutely and completely wrong. The language being spoken at the Olympics is American, unless you are watching BBC/Sky coverage which is a different set of presenters who are speaking something that could be loosely referred to as the Queens English althought the correct term is actually BBC English

The reason for the use of American English (AE) in China is because people were mostly taught AE in schools around China. Since China does more business with the States, it is understable that they would use AE instead of British English; and there should not be a confusion that because the Chinese uses AE, they like the States more than Britain. Another thing to point out is that there is a tread even in HK to move towards AE, as reflected in advertisments, American spelling such as "color" is not uncommon (I still remember seeing the use of "color" on a camera ads). Nevertheless, I still think the use of British Standard English is the most suitable on Wikipedia.[[User:Ingramhk|Ingramhk]] ([[User talk:Ingramhk|talk]]) 01:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

: British Standard English the most suitable? What are you talking about? An American website, created for the American public but later ported for worldwide use and the majority of "English" speaking people in the world speaking American English yet you still find it most suitable? I wonder why that is...

The 50 million inhabitants have no more claim to "official" English than the 45 million Spaniards do to Spanish (spoken by 300M others). All languages come from ancient roots very far geographically from their "homeland". English itself has borrowed heavily from French, among other languages, which is why it has such a rich and vast vocabulary. As people move, they take their language with them, share it, and modify it. That's why Aussies, Americans, and Britons all share a language, but also enjoy their peculiar idioms.

: "English" was Jute at first, but the Romans injected it with Latin. Later, came the "French" with the Normans. The reason it "rich" vocabulary is the average "English" speaking person is poorly educated in his own native language dating back to an unefficient and poor education standard in England duing and before the 1600's. In fact to this day, in most British schools today they do not learn the parts of speech or how to use them.

: 1. The fact is the core vocabulary of the English langauge is very small and words from other languages are used to fill in. That is not the same thing as having a rich vocabulary.

What we're really talking about are 1)spelling and 2)symbolism. For spelling, it's been my experience on wiki that spellings are generally suited to the topic - e.g. British spellings when discussing the M1 motorway, American when discussing the Wright Brothers.

: Then you need to read more Wiki, almost all articles are being switched by the British public to the British spellings yet when Americans try to swap them back the Admins stop them. I have a challenge for you, check the admins and see how many are British as opposed to American. Once you see what I mean you should be asking yourself why that is since one of the primary rules of Wiki is no Cabals.

As for sybolism, it's simply a reflection of America's greater cultural influence globally and in China. When I open my Eurogames, though, the rules always have a Union Flag next to the English and all those "o-u-r"s.

As for supposed "English" things: the Internet was derived from ARPANET in the USA, football has roots that pre-date England, and the USA was never a solely English invention. And btw, if it weren't for the USA, Britons would be speaking German today.

: No they would be speaking bastardized German just like they do English. Have you ever heard a person from Liverpool or Newcastle speak? Now compare that to someone from London. Sounds like different languages. Only people on Earth that have a new dialect every 20 miles and the worst part is they are not capable of switching to the Queens English when they want. Some are but very few. Look at North America though and the entire population is able to speak almost exactly alike. Its perplexing and I am not sure what it says about the British, the can not claim is enthic diversity because the America's are far more diverse.

== Controversies ==

Benjwong, would appreciate if you could please explain why my edits to 'controversies' regarding media access were reverted. These were cited to ''today's'' NY Times, so obviously it is an ongoing concern despite BOCOG's announcements, and as evidenced by the IOC member's quote, this is not a minor controversy.[[User:Spinner145|Spinner145]] ([[User talk:Spinner145|talk]]) 05:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hei guys I was reading about the controversies. Yeah there were demonstrations about human rights but don't forget that torch relay also initiated some Chinese to fight aganist certain western medias such as cnn, (e.g anti-cnn.com) and the French president. My point is that, there are two sides to this thing. One is those demonstrators of human rights, and the other side is those who are aganist those demonstrators. This article needs to be more balanced by including those who are aganist those demonstrators. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.26.161.119|75.26.161.119]] ([[User talk:75.26.161.119|talk]]) 09:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I'm not sure what you're proposing here. On the portion about the torch relay I think it might be a good idea from an NPOV perspective to mention the large numbers of overseas Chinese who demonstrated in support of the '08 Olympics along the relay route. On the other hand, Chinese protests of Western media coverage seems a bit too tangential. I think the best we can do for the 'controversies section is to set out what the controversies are in the most NPOV way possible, but given length limitations we won't be able to fully explain all points of view. Let me know your thoughts--happy to hear any suggestions you can offer to improve NPOV on this section.[[User:Spinner145|Spinner145]] ([[User talk:Spinner145|talk]]) 02:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the controversy regarding the age of the Chinese "women" gymnasts? Aside from questionable visual evidence of appearance, height, weight, and missing teeth, there is substantive evidence that at least two of these gymnasts had their ages reported differently at previous gymnastics events than presented in their passports to the IOC. The "controversies" section cannot be complete without this, regardless of whether there is a formal protest over their ages. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rmmiller44|Rmmiller44]] ([[User talk:Rmmiller44|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rmmiller44|contribs]]) 20:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

A new chapter in the ongoing controversy surrounding China's women's gymnastics team opened today, as search engine hacker stryde.hax found surviving copies of official registration documents issued by China's General Administration of Sport of China. The incriminating documents, expunged by censors from the official site and from Google's document cache, still appear in the document translation cache of Chinese search giant Baidu, showing the age of one of China's gold medal winning gymnasts to be 14 instead of 16, the minimum age for competition presented on her government-issued passport. Now that official government documentation is available (source slashdot)
http://cache.baidu.com/c?m=9f65cb4a8c8507ed4fece763105392230e54f7227e8a905368d4e41dce204c413037bfa673794e5392d8242140b20a17a2a17d247c1e68e6dd999f4aaaf1cc693bcd7a742613913161c468d8dc4755d650e44d98a40e91b8e74391b9d2a2dc5f58cc&p=882a97128c805ffc57ecd3214f&user=baidu

what?
== Headline text ==

http://cache.baidu.com/c?m=9d78d513d9d431dc4f9ce3690c66c0166d43f1682ba1d2020ed68448e267504a4172a4fb792d4a4295876b6672b25419afb52172404262eadb8e9f4aaaeecf6c388850652c01d21a4c8458b2930064dc60c70fe9ad1be3a7b863d5ffc5d3a81e0d8b&p=8b2a941786cc43f113fecb3146&user=baidu <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Realized|Realized]] ([[User talk:Realized|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Realized|contribs]]) 07:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Torch Relay - Taiwan ==

The wording for the section on the torch being diverted away from Taiwan should remain as is. While China's point of view is that it is a province, this view is not shared by all peoples, or even countries for that matter. Stating that it is, definitively, a province is bias, just as if I wrote "the independent country of Taiwan". So, leave it as is.
[[User:Kerui|Kerui]] 18:09, 27 July 2008

i beleive the official classification by the ROC government itself is that it is a province, the government and taiwan independence are TWO VERY DIFFERENT movments.[[User:ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ|ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ]] ([[User talk:ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ|talk]]) 23:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

== Nothing about the other side? Think about how they managed to get Olympics to the CENTER of Beijing! ==

Leveling living quarters with bulldozer armies, people forcibly (and no, that is not comparable to the Western definition of "force") pushed to live in the suburbs of Beijing from now on, since the space of '''several square miles''' was needed for the Olympic buildings. Absolutely nothing in the article about it. OR Chinese people have thought this is an offense and have removed these bits from the article. I would not be too surprised! -andy [[Special:Contributions/78.51.89.247|78.51.89.247]] ([[User talk:78.51.89.247|talk]]) 14:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
:See: [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics]] -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 14:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
:Wo... You sure care more about Chinese than us Chinese... Please, take care of yourself first and we will take care of ourselves. [[Special:Contributions/24.224.182.97|24.224.182.97]] ([[User talk:24.224.182.97|talk]]) 21:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:Man, relax, take care of yourself.[[User:AlexBlues|AlexBlues]] ([[User talk:AlexBlues|talk]]) 22:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

LoL Chinese nationalist telling off the western world. So much for one world one dream I hope "[[Special:Contributions/24.224.182.97|24.224.182.97]] ([[User talk:24.224.182.97|talk]])" is blocked as he's clearly a Nationalist Troll ([[Special:Contributions/79.230.66.26|79.230.66.26]] ([[User talk:79.230.66.26|talk]]) 14:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC))

I'm sure you got these news from some newspaper who are afraid that the world is too peace.
China has too many people especially in the city of beijing, and It's sure that some people had to displace for the construction of Olympic. The goverment compensated them for it, too. As Chinese, No one complain for it. And we all understand that it's a good thing for both our country and ourselves. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jimmybear121 CHN|Jimmybear121 CHN]] ([[User talk:Jimmybear121 CHN|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jimmybear121 CHN|contribs]]) 12:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

May I remind people to be netural and polite here. The matter has been addressed in [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics]]. It is NOT the idea of Wikipedia to attack other nations, but to be a medium to tell people this issue has rised concern in the international community. No matter what you personally think, it is irrelavent unless there are noticable amount of people with you on the same boat (which fair enough in this case, there are); but contribute by posting some good links, not some personal views and attacks. [[User:Ingramhk|Ingramhk]] ([[User talk:Ingramhk|talk]]) 15:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)



Maybe someone should put what he said in there, i clicked around the links and saw this article that also talks about some old grandma protesting about being removed from their Beijing home in 2k1 and now sentenced to labor camp even tho they're 71 and 74 yr old. lol http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news;_ylt=AiBDywjI9f5eX1_dIW3viDg1o5N4?slug=ap-china-protests&prov=ap&type=lgns [[User:Ssh83|Ssh83]] ([[User talk:Ssh83|talk]]) 23:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


== Broadcasting in [[Peru]] ==
== Broadcasting in [[Peru]] ==
Line 181: Line 58:
[[ATV (Peruvian Network)]] share the rights to host the games. They will both broadcast them in [[Peru]].
[[ATV (Peruvian Network)]] share the rights to host the games. They will both broadcast them in [[Peru]].


<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dlma97~enwiki|Dlma97~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Dlma97~enwiki#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dlma97~enwiki|contribs]]) 15:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)</small>
== Broadcasting in Spain ==
== Broadcasting in Spain ==


The public Spanish network TVE has a High Definition channel TVE-HD which can be tuned in the Digital+ pay package. I can't edit the broadcaster box. Please somebody add this.
The public Spanish network TVE has a High Definition channel TVE-HD which can be tuned in the Digital+ pay package. I can't edit the broadcaster box. Please somebody add this.


<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.31.89.161|80.31.89.161]] ([[User talk:80.31.89.161#top|talk]]) 12:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)</small>
== Number of delegates ==
== External links modified ==

"Below is a list of the all the participating NOCs (where available, the number of competitors per delegation is indicated in parentheses):"

I clicked on a few and the number of people listed in the articles never seems to match the number on the main page (eg see Gabon, and also Algeria). Am I missing something? Anyone know where the numbers come from? [[User:Rbakker99|Rbakker99]] ([[User talk:Rbakker99|talk]]) 16:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
: Only a few of those numbers are referenced, which is why we need to look at the official numbers that will hopefully be posted at the official 2008 Beijing Olympics site in a few days. [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 10:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The number of people participating for the Unites States on the main page is wrong it says we have 593 well Unites States has 647 and is the biggest participants at the summer games not China. So I don't know how to change that but it should. and other countries are wrong to. I don't know where you are getting your sources but they are wrong. [[User:MaribethSaxton|MaribethSaxton]] (User talk:MaribethSaxton|talk]]) 10:03pm, 8 August 2008
:Will reply at [[Talk:United States at the 2008 Summer Olympics]] --[[User:Jh12|Jh12]] ([[User talk:Jh12|talk]]) 05:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::Perhaps discrepancies in number can be attributed to the difference between the number of ''athletes'' in an Olympic delegation and the total number of people in an Olympic delegation including officials, support staff and athletes? Hence the US delegation may have 593 atheletes, but a total delegation of 647?[[Special:Contributions/72.27.25.85|72.27.25.85]] ([[User talk:72.27.25.85|talk]]) 16:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I took the data from the official site [http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Athlete/E.shtml] and compiled it into a spreadsheet and pivot table that has the number of athletes per country. The spreadsheet and pivot table can be found here [http://costaguanan.blogspot.com/] but they are only as accurate as the official site data. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.93.217.128|72.93.217.128]] ([[User talk:72.93.217.128|talk]]) 04:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I hope the data from the official site only gave the number of competitors/athletes in a delegation as opposed to a total delegation which is likely to be padded with officials, some of whom might not actually do anything other than watch.[[Special:Contributions/72.27.25.85|72.27.25.85]] ([[User talk:72.27.25.85|talk]]) 16:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

== Concerns and controversies & Ethnic Tibetans ==

It is currently written "Ethnic Tibetans have been banned from working in Beijing during the duration of the Games", one guy say the police told him to fire the tibetan working... nothing tell us it is systematic that Tibetan can not work in Beijing, it is certainly an action of one policeman. thus I propose to write "SOME Ethnic Tibetans have been banned" [[User:Killy-the-frog|Froggy helps ;-)]] ([[User talk:Killy-the-frog|talk]]) 10:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The statement regarding the "banning of ethnic Tibetans from working in Beijing for the duration of the games" is factually incorrect, and the "source" provided is only a single anecdote. There many Tibetans working in Beijing during the Olympics. In fact, there are even 64 ethnic Tibetans working as volunteers at the Olympic and Paralympic games. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/12.214.34.206|12.214.34.206]] ([[User talk:12.214.34.206|talk]]) 16:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Olympic Results ==

Is Wikipedia going to have a page which documents the complete results of events once they happen.
There have been several soccer matches played already prior to the Opening Ceremony, however they seem to be scattered across multiple pages.
Is there a single Olympics Results page being created?


[[User:Rhettrospective|Rhettrospective]] ([[User talk:Rhettrospective|talk]]) 11:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)Rhett B

:For the [[2006 Winter Olympics]], we had a highlights page: [[2006 Winter Olympics highlights]]. I hoped that the same thing could be produced for this games, although I'm not sure what others think. It would be at [[2008 Summer Olympics highlights]]. [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 13:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
:Oh, I guess someone already started it! Perhaps you can reference that pages from time to time. [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 13:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I find it a bit suspicious that China has the most gold medals. They must be cheating. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.108.132.231|91.108.132.231]] ([[User talk:91.108.132.231|talk]]) 15:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Typical American. If you're not winning, the opposition is cheating. Get over yourselves! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.49.154.113|122.49.154.113]] ([[User talk:122.49.154.113|talk]]) 03:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::As an American, the only people who I thought cheated where the dopers. The other stuff was problems with scoring, mostly because of new system that need more time to be worked out. China won the most Gold metals due to their high athletic abilities. And they deserved everyone they got. Congratulations to the whole country of China for a great games, home I will get to see them back there one day.--[[User:DanteAgusta|DanteAgusta]] ([[User talk:DanteAgusta|talk]]) 20:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

::: That post came from London, which is located in the UK. I recommend you stop your anti-American rants and have a look at yourself. I tend to agree the Chinese did win the most gold medals but their efforts and skill not cheating, but lets not forget some of the Chinese Gold Medals are under review with allegations of age cheating, so his comment was not without some justification

Even though they came 4th in the medals table Britain did the best. They were the best. China winning the most medals in there own country must mean they cheated, America tried to say other countries were cheating when they were not and Russia are just plain useless. GREAT BRITAIN RULES. PS: We beat you Austrlia. Slag us off now.

::: 4th is the best? Odd logic. It was not just American's that claimed the Chinese might have violated the age policy. In fact a British girl was among the first to note the incident

::I was very proud of Britain, great to see them back in the mix where they belong. Loved the lion design on many of the uniforms. I can't wait till London... just 4 years away *sigh*--[[User:DanteAgusta|DanteAgusta]] ([[User talk:DanteAgusta|talk]]) 20:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

== Split proposals ==

This page is currently 109 KB long, which for an article that should have the potential of being featured in the future, is completely unacceptable, especially when considering that the Olympics have not even started yet (football did already start though...). The page takes forever to load and even more to edit. We need to drastically trim this article down, especially for those lengthy lists or tables that can easily be moved to their own separate pages. I've proposed the splits of the following:
*[[2008 Summer Olympics#Broadcasting|Broadcasting]] → <s>[[List of broadcasting rights at the 2008 Summer Olympics]]</s> [[2008 Summer Olympics broadcasting rights]]
*[[2008 Summer Olympics#Participating NOCs|Participating NOCs]] → [[List of participating NOCs at the 2008 Summer Olympics]] <small>or [[List of participating National Olympic Committees at the 2008 Summer Olympics]]</small>
:*If all articles need to start with ''2008 Summer Olympics...'', how would you start this? [[2008 Summer Olympics participating NOCs ]]?? <small>[[User:Udonknome|<font color="green">'''Do U(knome)?'''</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="red">yes...</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Udonknome|<font color="blue">or no</font>]]</sub> 18:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*[[2008 Summer Olympics#Calendar|Calendar]] → <s>[[Calendar of the 2008 Summer Olympics]]</s> [[2008 Summer Olympics calendar]]
This would be a great start. Thanks <small>[[User:Udonknome|<font color="green">'''Do U(knome)?'''</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="red">yes...</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Udonknome|<font color="blue">or no</font>]]</sub> 07:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

:Before this goes any further, another suggestion might be a good compromise, because I do recognize the issue of large pages. Perhaps what we could do is move the Broadcasting table to [[2008 Summer Olympics broadcasting]] (to keep with convention). That would eliminate a large chunk of the page. Then, since we already have {{tl|NOCin2008SummerOlympics}}, we could just wipe out the list of national competitors. Finally, the calendar could be moved back to [[2008 Summer Olympics calendar]], with maybe a mini-calendar on the main Olympics page. I'm not sure if this is essentially what was proposed above, because as per my concerns below, there really wasn't a proposal laid out here in full. Comments/objections to this being the "actual" proposal? [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 16:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:Pretty much what I meant, except for the "we could just wipe out the list of national competitors". <small>[[User:Udonknome|<font color="green">'''Do U(knome)?'''</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="red">yes...</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Udonknome|<font color="blue">or no</font>]]</sub> 18:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the splits proposals by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Wikipedia's naming conventions]].''

*'''Support''' as I am the nominator. <small>[[User:Udonknome|<font color="green">'''Do U(knome)?'''</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="red">yes...</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Udonknome|<font color="blue">or no</font>]]</sub> 07:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This will be one of the most, if not the most, visible and viewed article on Wikipedia for the next three weeks. The loading time even for me with a cable connection is 10 to 15 seconds sometimes. It will be major problems for those with slower connections. -<small>[[User:CWY2190|<font color="black">CWY2190</font>]]</small><small><small>([[User talk:CWY2190|<font color="red">talk</font>]] • [[Special:Contributions/CWY2190|<font color="darkblue">contributions</font>]])</small></small> 07:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - article is too long, too slow to load and can take too much page scrolling to find what you want. Main page needs to carry essential data, and details not critical to describing the event itself, can be held elsewhere. Perhaps the section on [[2008_Beijing_Olympics#Transport|Transport]] should have it's own page too? --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 08:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' Well, considering the notability and global importance of the event, almost every section of the article probably needs its own page. For now though, I would like to handle only the huge sections that are the main cause for the loading and technical problems. Then I believe we should go ahead and decide for some of the other sections, case my case (all in my opinion of course). <small>[[User:Udonknome|<font color="green">'''Do U(knome)?'''</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="red">yes...</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Udonknome|<font color="blue">or no</font>]]</sub> 08:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - As the event progresses, the article would become much more longer/larger and as observed in the past sports events, the article would attract a lot of viewers. Strongly support moving supplementary information to separate pages. --[[User:Natrajdr|Natrajdr]] ([[User talk:Natrajdr|talk]]) 14:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' – 109 KB is not long at all. [[User:Python eggs|Python eggs]] ([[User talk:Python eggs|talk]]) 08:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' No offense, but was that a bad joke? [[WP:SIZE#A rule of thumb|WP:SIZE]] says that articles larger than 100 KB "almost certainly should be divided". I'm glad if you have an extremely fast internet connection, but most people do not have access to that kind of equipment. <small>[[User:Udonknome|<font color="green">'''Do U(knome)?'''</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Special:Random|<font color="red">yes...</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Udonknome|<font color="blue">or no</font>]]</sub> 08:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' - that is 109 KB even before opening ceremony, elimination rounds, semi finals, finals, medals (and medal count) and closing ceremony. --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 09:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' The 109KB is irrelevant. Featured articles look at the length of ''readable prose''. This article has lots of formatting in the tables, bumping up the KB. The actual amount of readable prose is actually fairly small.
*<strike>'''Oppose.'''</strike> First off, the calendar used to exist at [[2008 Summer Olympics calendar]], where I created it, but someone had the necessity to move it here, removing the transclusion I had for it on this page completely. (I wouldn't oppose moving it back to that page, but ONLY if it stayed transcluded here). Basically, the size of this page is due to our using templates that repeat, or structures that look cool, but take up a lot of room. Everything should stay here for now, or at least in part, but for god sake don't keep getting rid of stuff, because there won't be anything left! [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 14:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Support.''' Having been cleared up on the issues, I have no choice but to support the effort! [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 20:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The 109KB is not irrelevant. It might not matter for featured article status, but it almost certainly will matter for the thousands of people who visit this page in the next two weeks who don't have super fast internet connections. [[User:Benjaminx|Benjaminx]] ([[User talk:Benjaminx|talk]]) 14:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' - considering this page is going to be one of the most viewed on Wikipedia in the coming weeks I think is a necessity to pair it down. I think splitting the Broadcasting is a great first start because it is a simple and easy transition. [[User:Scottydude|Scottydude]] <sub><small>[[User talk:Scottydude|talk]]</small></sub> 15:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose.''' The article has the thoroughness that the subject deserves. A great deal of the text in the article is references, not a bad thing. I think we need to remember the 100K guideline is just a guideline. Posterity will edit the article down after the Olympics are over, there is no need to be hasty about splitting it up right this minute because of concerns about the readers of 2010. I don't see any good argument for making this nicely thorough article less so by forcing readers to go to sub-pages (which in the long run will slow down their reading even more). [[User:Tempshill|Tempshill]] ([[User talk:Tempshill|talk]]) 23:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support.''' Make it easy for users to see the links to other pages and divide it up to keep it from getting too long and slow to load. Separate pages can expand on the thouroughness (sp?) of the sub-topic. [[User:Cs92|Cs92]] ([[User talk:Cs92|talk]]) 00:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Seriously too big for my poor 512kps connection (pretty much a standard connection in Australia), along with many other fellow Wikipedians that have already been talking on this talk page about this issue. [[User:Jordsta|Jordsta]] ([[User talk:Jordsta|talk]]) 05:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Yep it takes a while to load. However, its important that clear links are placed near the start of the article to help readers find what their interested in. [[User:Ziphon|Ziphon]] ([[User talk:Ziphon|<sup>ALL</sup><sub>ears</sub>]]) 08:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Simply being long is not grounds to split an article. The information is relevant and split pages will only seek to create confusion to access information. I have tried the page at a number of different internet speeds and foudn it loaded well within an acceptable timeframe [[User:Rotovia|Rotovia]] ([[User talk:Rotovia|talk]]) 10:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' just as long as those the split pages are easily accessible from the main olympics page [[User:Hornplayer2|hornplayer2]] ([[User talk:Hornplayer2|talk]]) 21:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Since the idea to split the page was first proposed, I suspect the page has gotten even bigger. Was some split off, only to see the page grow again? I'm not sure, but I just commented at the end of this page that my browser basically freezes up for half a minute or more when I visit the page, which is pretty much ONLY true for this page. I suspect that the problem is not just download time (I've got a very fast connection), but the resources used to display the page. Tiny little flags are cute, but combined with all the other material on the page, it makes for a real drag. [[User:Zadignose|zadignose]] ([[User talk:Zadignose|talk]]) 11:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The Olympics is all about sports, competition, medals, and the atheletes who earn them (with a bit of national pride thrown in). But the current page [[bury the lede|buries the lede]] in placing these topics more than halfway down the page. (It's only up that high, because the last 1/4 of the page is references.) I think topics such as broadcast coverage, infrastructure, the selection process, and other "overhead" topics could be moved to a secondary page - maybe something along the lines of "Preparations & operations of the 2008 summer olympics". -- [[User:Tcncv|Tcncv]] ([[User talk:Tcncv|talk]]) 03:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''

*'''Comment.''' Basically, I don't understand this proposal fully. Is someone suggesting, and many people agreeing to, the removal of entire sections of writing, tables, and pictures from this article? I understand that not everything can fit here, but if the end game is to make this page smaller, we can't do it without sacrificing the "quality" of this page. Honestly, splitting an article seems like the quick fix, but it just makes more problems, so why not rewrite some stuff here, or make smaller tables. Do we really need an "HD" section in the Olympic broadcaster's table? Do we really need ''the table''?! There are some ways we can fix this without having to shove stuff on other pages first, and I really don't think having more pages to tend to is the answer. [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 14:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

*'''Comment.''' Please move the subsection pictures away to an ancilliary articles. Please. please please please. please. they can be moved IMMEDIATELY. please please please please please. Do not lock this articel and ignore requests on talk page.-[[Special:Contributions/71.184.193.44|71.184.193.44]] ([[User talk:71.184.193.44|talk]]) 15:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment.''' The naming of the new articles should all begin with ''2008 Summer Olympics....'' --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 15:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment.''' I decided to be bold and make the NOC's table a transclusion from a template instead, shaved 10KB off the page size. [[User:ViperSnake151|ViperSnake151]] 16:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

== NPOV? I think not ==

This page reads like Chinese propaganda. No information about concerns over Chinese human rights abuse other than journalistic restrictions. Human Rights Watch "allegations" are not allegations as the page states - they are documented facts. The controversy over Tibet is not whether protesters will disrupt the games, but whether China should continue to occupy Tibet.

[[Special:Contributions/82.70.211.221|82.70.211.221]] ([[User talk:82.70.211.221|talk]]) 11:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Chris Owens, August 8 2008.

: How dare you spoil the big party for one billion Chinese!! But seriously, that is a problem with many China-related articles on Wikpidia these days, as any criticism of China is anathema for some editors. [[User:Novidmarana|Novidmarana]] ([[User talk:Novidmarana|talk]]) 12:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

::Perhaps the reason that subjects like Chinese human rights are not mentioned in detail here, is that same reason that the Occupation of Iraq and Guantanamo Bay are not mentioned in each US sporting event article. There are other articles that adequately cover those subjects. For example: [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics]]. --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 14:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

::The controversy over Tibet simply doesn't belong to this article, this article is about the Olympics.--[[User:Seba5618|Seba5618]] ([[User talk:Seba5618|talk]]) 02:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately the press, which means the reliable sources, don't agree with you. If the reliable sources are constantly linking the two, then it does belong here. Ignoring that aspect of the coverage is a violation of NPOV.--[[User:Crossmr|Crossmr]] ([[User talk:Crossmr|talk]]) 02:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::::I assume that by "press" you mean western press. In any case I didn't really meant what I wrote, I'm OK with the current size of the controversy section and I do agree that it is necesary to avoid POV. Still, I don't see how to merge this section on the rest of the article without losing consistency.--[[User:Seba5618|Seba5618]] ([[User talk:Seba5618|talk]]) 18:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::The press is the press, regardless of where they are from. There are a lot of people in the west, and their media also finds a lot of televisions, papers, websites, etc around the world. This is a far cry from some single extremist news organization where it might be okay to refer to them as the "press".--[[User:Crossmr|Crossmr]] ([[User talk:Crossmr|talk]]) 10:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::The press is not the press wherever they are. State-controlled press that is not "free" press cannot necessarily be considered true or NPOV! [[User:Wikiwikikid|Wikiwikikid]] ([[User talk:Wikiwikikid|talk]]) 15:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::If there is complete disregard concerning the geographic origins of press releases, I recon you would reflect the views of the Chinese propaganda machine to the last as well? NPOV is not merely an issue of quantity of citable sources. It is also about ensuring there is a fair and balanced coverage of views expressed by both sides of the debate. As far as the current version of the article stands, this has clearly been accomplished already.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] ([[User talk:Huaiwei|talk]]) 13:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

== Highlights Section?? ==

Do we want to add a Highlights section to this page, similar to one in [[2006 Winter Olympics]], and possibly linking to a more detailed [[Highlights of the 2008 Summer Olympics]]? I realise that it would become a bit of a dumping ground for information during the games, but I think that it would provide a centralised location for brief snippets of the games, which we could then clean up to a proper summary post-event. [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 13:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:That is probably the best way that we can control the dumping of results. And conveniently, the page has already been started! It is at [[2008 Summer Olympics highlights]]. That's how most of the subpage names here are structured, I suppose, and how the 2006 one specifically was too. [[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">(''t'')</font>]]</small>&ensp; 14:10, August 8, 2008 (UTC)
:: I've been bold, and added the section. [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 23:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::If there is a seperate article, then there is no need for a section, at least not now. As the games go on, this article will grow exponentially, as will the highlights article. If there is a need for such a section, I suggest adding it after the games so you can control the size of it and you don't have to worry about it constantly being updated with up-to-the-minute results, rather than actual highlights. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 23:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Does anyone else prefer the higlights page as doen in the Olympics pages pre-Syndney like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Summer_Olympics#Highlights. It's just easier and more accessible for the better highlights. Not every Gold medal is a highlight.[[User:Juggertrout|Juggertrout]] ([[User talk:Juggertrout|talk]]) 22:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

== Live Broadcast in USA. ==

Where would be the best place to put info regarding the press blackout of the opening by NBC? Just searching the web it appears alot of people (including me) were disappointed/angry by NBC's refusal to show it live and re-air it latter. [[User:Ifandbut|Ifandbut]] ([[User talk:Ifandbut|talk]]) 00:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
: Perhaps in the article [[United States at the 2008 Summer Olympics]] [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 02:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::Was it not live? They did replay it all night though. --<font face="Bookman Old Style" color="green" size="4">[[User:EricV89|eric]]</font><font face="Bookman Old Style" color="blue" size="2">[[User talk:EricV89| (mailbox)]]</font> 22:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think people are really complaining about the opening ceremonies not being live; after all, the time difference between EDT and Beijing is 12 hours, so if it's aired live, people would have to tune in at 8 am friday morning -- most people were probably at work. Viewership for a live broadcast would be limited and the advertisers would've balked about that. I think there have been gripes about a tape delay for the west coast, though; I'm not sure about all the details here. [[User:Derek.cashman|Dr. Cash]] ([[User talk:Derek.cashman|talk]]) 15:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

:Hello, live is live. If the opening ceremonies are at 4 AM they should still be covered live, and then repeated during prime time. There are a lot of people who don't want to wait 14 hours to see what everyone else is talking about.

:It would be good to add a section on Nothing But Cosby's coverage of the olympics in the United States. In the morning when the olympics are live, there is a very sleepy commentator who seems to be on only because no one else wanted the gig, and in the evening when they are tape delayed a pompous I'm better than you commentator seems to think that just showing Michael Spitz or whatever his name is that won 8 gold medals is all that anyone wants to see. I understand that there are 3,000 hours of the olympics but the US only gets to see a few hundred hours. An especially goofy element to NBC's coverage is that during the daytime in the United States (night in China) only aerial shots of the venues are shown that were taken during the day, even though the events are shown live, and during the evening and night in the US (day in China) only shots taken during the night are shown, even though the events are live, and daytime in China. Are they trying not to confuse the [[Flat Earth|flatlanders]]? It's highly bogus. In the future all networks should have access to the olympics and pay a flat rate determined by the committee similar to those "auctions" you often see where the promoter tries to get the best price for say a toaster and then announces that anyone who wants one can also get one for the same price as the high bid. [[Special:Contributions/199.125.109.17|199.125.109.17]] ([[User talk:199.125.109.17|talk]]) 17:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks for your comments. But this article is not specifically about US television viewers response to NBC coverage. Please keep in mind your comments would be better served on a chat page somewhere; this talk page is designed to improve an encyclopedic article about the Olympics. Cheers.[[User:Cbradshaw|Cbradshaw]] ([[User talk:Cbradshaw|talk]]) 18:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm just saying the article should have more on the coverage of the olympics. Not a TV guide listing, but information on how the olympics are covered, not just a list of international broadcasters, which needs to be moved to a separate article, not just hidden (it takes a horrendous time to load the article because of the two lists of countries, both of which should be contained in their own articles). [[Special:Contributions/199.125.109.17|199.125.109.17]] ([[User talk:199.125.109.17|talk]]) 19:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

===Relevance of US NBC delay to the article===
I'm wondering if NBC's practice is found anywhere else. I'm not talking about the competition--there's so many going on simultaneously thus there'll be a lot of delayed broadcasting. I'm talking about the opening and closing ceremonies, which too many countries in the world broadcast live no matter what time it is--and US' two neighbors, Canada and Mexico, did it live. If the opening ceremony is watched by X billion of people live (more people than ever before, blah blah blah...) EXCEPT for one big country, then it's relevant enough to mention here or in the Opening Ceremony article. I've heard comments of athletes marching in while holding a cellular phone conversation, probably asking folks back home "can you see me on TV?" That's something the whole US team cannot do due to blackout! [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 06:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
:Some of them will have had gray market satellite dishes with foreign broadcasters, so would have seen it live. Some of them can catch over the air broadcasts from say Mexico, or Canada. [[Special:Contributions/70.51.10.38|70.51.10.38]] ([[User talk:70.51.10.38|talk]]) 11:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this would be important to the article but here is the biggest thing your forgetting. NBC will not show the opening or closing ceremonies during the morning. Especially if its a Friday. Watch they'll do the same thing with the closing ceremony and its on a Sunday. they'll air it during prime time. Its all because of viewers and money. Advertisers probably wouldn't pay twice or something like that. But all these big events are always shown during prime time slots. I just wonder what would happen if they had the convention the same day. What would NBC do then (if NBC is actually covering the convention)-
P.S. You could of tried and streamed it online from some foreign countries
I don't know how to sign (I don't have a sign in id) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.253.249.55|69.253.249.55]] ([[User talk:69.253.249.55|talk]]) 07:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Concerns and controversies ==

This section needs to be fully rewritten with better prose, and needs to provide neutral coverage for a broader spectrum of [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics|notable topics]]. I have also re-added the statement regarding persecution of Christians, and I will attempt to aid in further improvements of the section later tonight. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 02:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
: I feel that we should try to keep this section as short as possible, reserving the sub-article [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics]] for a broad scope. We can't mention every single aspect of human rights in China in this article, which is supposed to be about the Olympics. We definitely want to avoid placing undue weight on the concerns. [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 02:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

::: The issue I have with this section (and the reason I kept deleting it) is that it's EXTREMELY America-centric. America has been the loudest among any nation about so-called human rights violations, air pollution, Internet restrictions, blah blah blah. We need a global view, not just what America thinks. [[User:Wikipedian06|Wikipedian06]] ([[User talk:Wikipedian06|talk]]) 05:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::::While that may be, if the most reliable sources come from there, then it will get the most coverage. We're not here on wikipedia to create a point of view, only to accurately reflect what the reliable sources. Neutral point of view doesn't insist upon presenting something completely fair and balanced. It insists on presenting viewpoints held by the reliable sources with the weight that they're given coverage. If the majority of sources are US sources (and lets not forget the torch was snuffed in other venues) then the majority of text will be from a US view. What you can do is ensure that the sources are labeled as to where they come from.--[[User:Crossmr|Crossmr]] ([[User talk:Crossmr|talk]]) 08:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::<strike>I am currently in the process of rewriting this section in as appropriate of a tone as possible.</strike> <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 06:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::The section has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2008_Summer_Olympics&diff=230785854&oldid=230777461 rewritten], and now includes sources from Australia, Canada, China, Germany, Israel, Japan, Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom. It is not perfect, but it is undoubtedly an improvement. Further editing should include improved prose, and ''slightly'' more verbose and well-written explanations of the most influential topics; such as the proposed boycotts, Tibetan unrest, and media censorship. The section should remain focused on concerns and controversies that pertain to the Olympic games, and delicate caution should be taken to avoid [[WP:UNDUE]]. Some of the information would be more neutrally and tastefully presented in other areas of the article. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 11:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
::: Looks good! [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 14:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this section of this aricle deserves to be moved else where, even to its own article.
Reading from Top to Bottom up til this point the entire aritile was neutral and informative. It did not share any views only facts of events from a world view, even the points about the Bruni pull out and ban on Iraq participation. This section deviates from this voice and tone and creates its own view that seems out of place. - TLD, Dallas, Texas, 8-10-08 <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.25.39.78|66.25.39.78]] ([[User talk:66.25.39.78|talk]]) 05:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Regarding [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2008_Summer_Olympics&offset=20080815110749&action=history this edit]: not all related parties are American, and this statement is exclusively addressing a controversy pertaining to Christianity. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

:This [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2008_Summer_Olympics&diff=232161264&oldid=232147924 edit] has been reverted for a second time, as the related groups are ''not'' all American. Furthermore, several of the controversies related to [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&um=1&tab=wn&nolr=1&q=Persecution+of+Christians+in+China+%2BOlympics&btnG=Search+News Christians] are distinct from those of other religions.

:Both the [[Tibetan people|Tibetan]] and [[Uyghur people|Uyghur]] peoples controversial in relation to the Olympics. We could generalize the two ethnic groups and simply say that "indigenous peoples" were the subject of controversy, but it would not be nearly as informative. I understand that Christians are not the only religious group facing persecution in China, just as Tibetans are not the only controversial indigenous people. All four references for this statement specifically refer to Christianity, and there is a corresponding section in the [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics|child article]].

:The "equivocal religious freedoms" statement already covers generalized religious discrepancies, but does not adequately describe more detailed aspects and concerns. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 09:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
::I have now reverted a [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2008_Summer_Olympics&diff=232301015&oldid=232299889 third] edit. Please consider [[WP:WAR]] and [[WP:3RR]]. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 12:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

:::As an outside editor has [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Assistance_requested|expressed]] potential concerns about sources currently cited, I have substituted a [http://dynamic.csw.org.uk/article.asp?t=report&id=95&rnd=0.5403711 report] produced jointly by two international not-for-profit human rights organizations. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 06:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

== limited reception to other parts of the world ==

Man, why you make praise about transmitting the games in HD if you cant make the other parts of the world seeing it!, the broadcasting has been very limited and disappointing. I live in Panama and we here depends on small sections that are paid to US broadcasters to see it! And what we see? NOTHING! We only can see when our athletes play, nothing else from this big event. So whats the point? Why cant they transmit at reasonable prices for small countries so we can see at least something of the events? I cant see nothing in internet either because I not belong to any zone (Europe or USA) that the broadcasters belong!

When we will have a Super Low Definition Open Source Broadcast for the World, this situation isnt fair!
I am so pissed, I wanted to see archery at last.....

And I have only see the opening ceremony, and because its the only thing we have, its looping in our local channels. I have Cable and I get nothing neither.

Please London! Dont make the same mistakes! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/190.140.43.196|190.140.43.196]] ([[User talk:190.140.43.196|talk]]) 17:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: I dunno, but then, the broadcasters already paid for the exclusive rights to broadcast the Games in specific countries. [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 01:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

::I certainly can't watch the EU's streaming video online outside of their territory! Perhaps a distinction should be made between satellite TV and computer TV?[[User:Kencf0618|kencf0618]] ([[User talk:Kencf0618|talk]]) 06:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It is the decision of the local broadcasting company to choose which programme they show on TV. And mostly the local company/ies will only show when their country/region is playing (i.e. The TV in Hong Kong show mostly when China or Hong Kong is playing. Maybe the TV companies just want to annoy us, maybe not. I am a big fan of badminton, and i know for sure there's matches all day, but i can only view it when China/Hong Kong, China play, not when only countries play [[User:Ingramhk|Ingramhk]] ([[User talk:Ingramhk|talk]]) 02:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:: {{notaforum}}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_origin [[User:Lihaas|Lihaas]] ([[User talk:Lihaas|talk]]) 21:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

== Georgia ==

Did Georgia team abandon Olympics Games?

See http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Olympics/idUSPEK30568120080809

--[[Special:Contributions/151.57.10.240|151.57.10.240]] ([[User talk:151.57.10.240|talk]]) 18:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

: That headline included the word "may". Anyway, Georgia haven't left the Olympics - one of their shooters got (I believe) a bronze after that article was uploaded. [[User:DitzyNizzy|DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)]] ([[User talk:DitzyNizzy|talk]]) 10:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

== To what extend is the pollution going to affect record times? ==

Are there sources supporting it? Because it sure sounds like it. I saw a portion of BBC saying that pollution yesterday in Beijing was about 8 times more than in London. --[[User:Leladax|Leladax]] ([[User talk:Leladax|talk]]) 19:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
:We shall soon see about that, but of course ultimately we will only report this correlation when there are reputable sources making the same deduction.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] ([[User talk:Huaiwei|talk]]) 14:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, many media has a certain bias when reporting, not only do they reflect the society, so do they impose certain ideas onto the people. Despite the talk of severe pollution, there has already been new records set, e.g. swimmer Michael Phelps, Weightlifter Chen Xiexia. Obviously these are not altheltics event (and we will have to see the results later), but let us not forget that a lot of events dont have world records for breaking, e.g. Canoeing. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ingramhk|Ingramhk]] ([[User talk:Ingramhk|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ingramhk|contribs]]) 02:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:While it was mainly predicted that heat, humidity and pollution would affect the outdoor endurance events, the [[Athletics at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Women's 10000 metres|Women's 10000 metres]] was run in a new Olympic record time and the second and third fastest women's [[10,000 metres]] times in history. We should not be expecting the same record pace for the [[marathon]], as marathon records are almost never set in August due to the heat. --[[User:Xagent86|Xagent86]] <small>([[User talk:Xagent86|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Xagent86|contribs]])</small> 06:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
: To follow up, there has been more world record set, for example the 100m men running and the group cycling by England [[User:Ingramhk|Ingramhk]] ([[User talk:Ingramhk|talk]]) 11:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

== Sports section ==

Am I right in thinking [[trampolining]] has been missed out? [[User:Craigy144|Craigy]] ([[User_talk:Craigy144|talk]]) 18:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
:Trampoline is a discipline of [[gymnastics]]; information is found at [[Gymnastics at the 2008 Summer Olympics]]. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 19:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, of course. Thank you! [[User:Craigy144|Craigy]] ([[User_talk:Craigy144|talk]]) 23:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
umm, sorry. Trampolining counts separately for the olympics. see this: http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/Schedule/index.shtml It starts tomorrow. [[User:Lihaas|Lihaas]] ([[User talk:Lihaas|talk]]) 21:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:The Beijing 2008 site shows the results separately, but trampolining is still a discipline of gymnastics, as is rhythmic gymnastics. <s>There is currently only one wikipedia article on it, as linked above</s>. We could certainly split it out, but we should do the same for the different disciplines under cycling and canoeing as well. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 21:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
::There are '''two''' articles, [[Gymnastics at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Men's trampoline]] and [[Gymnastics at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Women's trampoline]]. These two event pages are both linked from the same higher-level [[Gymnastics at the 2008 Summer Olympics]] article. — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 21:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Argh, missed that. Thanks. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 21:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

== Participating NOCs section ==

I am concerned about this text in the Participating NOCs section:

:''Since the People's Republic of China does not recognise the independence of Taiwan (Republic of China), the Taiwanese athletes are forced to carry the Chinese Taipei flag instead of their national flag. They are also referred to as Chinese Taipei (TPE) instead of ROC (Republic of China) because the Chinese do not accept them using their "own" name. If Taiwanese athletes win gold it will not be the anthem of Taiwan that would be played at the medal ceremony. Hong Kong however is displaying their national flag although they are not a sovereign state.''

This makes it appear that the only reason for the designation of [[Chinese Taipei]], and the use of the [[National Olympic Committee]] flag rather than the ROC national flag, is because these Games are in China and Beijing objects. This is patently untrue. The National Olympic Committee of Taiwan was redesignated as the National Olympic Committee of Chinese Taipei in 1979, and athletes from Taiwan have participated at the Olympic Games under the Chinese Taipei name and flag since 1984.

This looks like POV pushing, blaming the current Games organizing committee for a situation that has existed for decades as a result of international politics surrounding the [[Political status of Taiwan|status of Taiwan]]. I note that Taiwan participated as Chinese Taipei in the [[2004 Summer Olympic Games|Athens]] and [[2000 Summer Olympic Games|Sydney Games]], for example, but there is no explicit mention of this on the relevant articles. I do not see why this needs explicit mention in this article. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 21:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

: I fully agree Eron. Several editors have tried to push an anti-China spin on this article. This should be rectified to be as neutral as possible. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.24.143.65|70.24.143.65]] ([[User talk:70.24.143.65|talk]]) 21:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

The text has now been changed to ''"Since Taiwan (Republic of China) is not internationally recognized as a sovereign country, the Taiwanese athletes are pressured to use the politically neutral name "Chinese Taipei" and to carry the Chinese Taipei flag instead of the Flag of the Republic of China. They are also referred to as Chinese Taipei (TPE)[137] instead of ROC (Republic of China). If Taiwanese athletes win gold it will not be the anthem of Taiwan that would be played at the medal ceremony."''

This is still inaccurate and POV. Pressured by whom? If anyone is applying pressure, it is the IOC and they have done so since 1979. I cannot see how this is especially relevant to this article. If we are mentioning Chinese Taipei's name here, we should also edit the [[2004 Summer Olympic Games]] article to note that, due to pressure from the host country Greece, athletes from the Republic of Macedonia competed under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It would be equally relevant - and equally incorrect. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 21:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. A simple mention of RoC is represented as Chinese Taipei (like in any other Olympics) would suffice. It could also be removed since the situation has not changed and it adds nothing notable that is different from previous Games. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.24.143.65|70.24.143.65]] ([[User talk:70.24.143.65|talk]]) 21:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Funny reading - so Beijing doesn't give a damn if Taiwanese athletes fly the [[Flag of the Republic of China]] at the Olympics? It's the IOC's own idea as well as forcing the Republic of Macedonia to be called the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Greece couldn't care less about Macedonia's name!
:WRONG! If IOC is applying pressure to Taiwan it's because someone else (guess who) is squeezing IOC. IOC is just a sock-puppet for PRC in this matter.
:Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and readers seek knowledge. One of the above contributors suggested that information regarding matters indifferent from the previous games should be stripped from the 2008 article. So readers should always go back to the 1896 article and chew through all the intermediate Olympic Games articles to get answers regarding questions to the present games? That is a rather arrogant attitude, especially towards newbies. --''Regards, [[User:Necessary Evil|Necessary Evil]] ([[User talk:Necessary Evil|talk]])'' 01:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean? "Strange that you both are from Canada ;-)" [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008_Summer_Olympics&diff=231355519&oldid=231338925]. That's a pretty brash accusation if I am correct in what you are inferring. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.24.143.65|70.24.143.65]] ([[User talk:70.24.143.65|talk]]) 02:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Just an observation, that's all. Have a look at the [[Smiley#Typographical smileys|Smiley]] article! --''Regards, [[User:Necessary Evil|Necessary Evil]] ([[User talk:Necessary Evil|talk]])'' 14:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

My concern with this section is that it is pushing the point of view that the only reason athletes from Taiwan are not competing under their national name and flag is because the Games are being held in Beijing and that China would not allow their participation otherwise. The inclusion of the sentence about Hong Kong contributes to this, as it seems to draw some sort of comparison between the treatment of the two. The comment above that ''"IOC is just a sock-puppet for PRC in this matter"'' is a clear statement of this point of view.

The problem is, this point of view runs contrary to the facts. The fact is that the National Olympic Committee of Taiwan changed its name in 1979, that the name it has used at the Olympics has been Chinese Taipei since 1984, and that the fact that the current Olympics are being held in China has nothing to do with this designation. Similarly, Hong Kong established its own Olympic Committee in 1950 and has competed at the Olympics since 1952, independent of its status with respect to both Great Britain and China.

I'd like to understand what the relevance is of highlighting the status of two out of 204 participating NOCs, beyond an attempt to push a POV that is critical of China's stance towards Taiwan - a stance which is not relevant to this article. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 03:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I just removed the paragraphs, with explanation in the edit summary--pretty much the same reasoning mentioned by Eron. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 04:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:And that removal has just been reverted [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2008_Summer_Olympics&diff=231459226&oldid=231449275 here], with the note that "The paragraph is a consensus of several contributors." I'm not going to re-revert now, but I will restate my question from above: What the relevance is of highlighting the status of two out of 204 participating NOCs, beyond an attempt to push a POV that is critical of China's stance towards Taiwan? The fact that the paragraph represents a consensus of several editors does not mean that it is not POV. I still cannot see why it is in the article. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 15:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that the [[Chinese Taipei]] arrangement has nothing to do with whether Taiwan is an independent and/or recognized nation. It has to do with the history of two governments fighting for the "seat" of China just like in the UN and everywhere else. For decades after 1949, PRC would not compete because they didn't think ROC was legitimate or "two Chinas" was acceptable. In the same time period, ROC competed as "China", until 1976 when Canada wouldn't issue them visas to "represent China", and then in 1979 the PRC won favors of the IOC and resulted in the subsequent CHN/TPE arrangement--all of this while the Chiangs are in power and the Taiwan independence movement was highly suppressed. Since then, the ROC government had changed hand twice from KMT to DPP and back to KMT. Neither parties wanted to fight for "a better deal" like they wanted for UN, WHO etc. because IOC is something they already continue to participate in and not excluded.

I don't see a "consensus of several contributors". I only see one person tending to add something which others tried to tone down, correct, and reduce. Many sentences contain POV, especially the inclusion of HKG, which may have its own flags but not anthem (it was GBR's and CHN's that get played). And BTW it's not "the anthem of Taiwan"--it's the controversial (today) KMT party song then ROC anthem from across the strait.

The info is only relevant in the [[Chinese Taipei]] article, not in this 2008 article--at least in this form. After all the sovereign, independent (de facto) nation of ROC is indeed allowed to send an Olympic team, albeit under a different arrangement like FYROM.

If there's anything worth noting (like the torch relay controversies), it'd be the controversy of how (and by whom) to translate Chinese Taipei into Chinese (Zhonghua Taibei or Zhongguo Taibei). This previously untouched "can of worm" finally got "opened" because Chinese is an official language of the 2008 games--something not happened before. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 16:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

IMHO the reason why Taiwan cannot participate as the Republic of China or as Taiwan is because of pressure from China to the IOC and its members. This is not specific to the 2008 Summer Olympics. But I think it is necessary to note in the article that visitors and expatriates from Taiwan were allowed to display their national flag in the previous games, since those games were not held in China. Was Macedonia allowed to use its own name in games other than the one in Athens? [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 21:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:The text currently in the article does not mention visitors and expatriates from Taiwan; it only discusses competing athletes from Taiwan. These athletes have not competed under the name Taiwan or under the national flag of Taiwan since before 1984. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 21:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:: This is probably the first time in olympics that supporters cannot display the national flag of the Republic of China, and therefore necessary to be noted. The "Chinese Taipei" designation and the NOC flag of Chinese Taipei have been in place since the early 1980s. It is not notable particularly to the Beijing games. [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 22:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:::I agree re the significance of a ban on display of the Taiwan flag. I would like to find a clear reference to the ban; what I have found (and put in) is a reference to an article describing what spectators are planning to do to circumvent the ban. I'd be interested to know if anyone has found a reference to the ban itself. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 22:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

::::The ban has nothing to do with the Olympics, and there is no way you can document the ban. You simply can't display the ROC flag anywhere in mainland China (except at certain historical memorials) without being hauled away for a long time. (The PRC considers ROC no longer legitimate government, but still holding out a province which makes the flag rebellious.) In past Olympics, displaying the ROC flag might get you hauled away from the venue, but out on the street you can do just anything. In Beijing this time, even a "Free Tibet" banner somewhere in the city won't be tolerated. Additionally, I don't think any Taiwanese fans/supporters (of the athletes) are planning to bring in a ROC flag anyway. They're not political activists after all, and they are not that stupid to have to be told that they can't bring it.

::::In conclusion, taking away the "unlike previous games" phrase makes the mentioning of TPE's status irrelevant. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 01:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It is strange how some people dislike an after all tame paragraph. They produce subarguments in order to erase it. You can find more arguments at [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. What is it that disturbs your circles? I often come across Wikipedians who fail to comprehend that ordinary people look up in the Wikipedia to get knowledge that these Wikiusers take for granted. People might wonder why some teams are not using their own flag, or they might wonder where the Taiwanese athletes/spectators are. [[2008 Summer Olympics#Participating NOCs]] is the perfect place to inform these people (contrary to the South African swimmer story - it must be misplaced). You might think that it's common knowledge or that ignorant people can just click on the [[Chinese Taipei]] hyperlink to learn about it. It's not very user-friendly to hide information behind wikilinks and if you're looking for the Taiwanese NOC you have no Taiwan => TPE hyperlink. If the problem is that it's not unique for Beijing 2008 you'll have to work overtime to erase information mutual with the previous Olympics. If it's about the relevance of highlighting the status of a few then remember - Olympic Games highlights the few, namely the medal receivers. --''Regards, [[User:Necessary Evil|Necessary Evil]] ([[User talk:Necessary Evil|talk]])'' 02:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

=== Map of participating countries really useful?===

What is the value of the Image:2008 Olympic games countries.PNG, the resoultion of which prevents the new (tiny) nations from being shown? Two of the four colour-coded categories seem to be redundant and it seems to show simply that, of all the worlds's countries, only Western Sahara is not participating, a fact not explained/ confirmed in the text. Is this image required by Wiki guidelines or by precedent? Could it be improved to be in any way useful? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 11:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
:IMHO the [[:Image:2008 Olympic games countries.PNG]] is not useful in that resolution. A text explaining it would be better. --''Regards, [[User:Necessary Evil|Necessary Evil]] ([[User talk:Necessary Evil|talk]])'' 15:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Agree. We need some words to tell and explain why some countries are not represented at the 2008 olympics. Some do not have an NOC, some NOCs are not member of IOC, and some are barred by the IOC to compete. [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 21:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason for the map is that it's part of a series of similar maps added to each Olympic Games page; clearly, the maps for earlier Games are much more useful than the ones here at the point where almost every country has competed. It's hard to really show which countries aren't participating at this point, because the ones which aren't participating (Vatican City and Brunei) are tiny enough not to really show up. However, a curious reader could actually look at the higher resolution version, and see that, as well as the blue coloring for Montenegro, the Marshall Islands, and Tuvalu. Western Sahara and Kosovo are also shaded gray on the map, but neither are indisputably sovereign and the IOC hasn't recognized NOCs from either (and, at least in the case of Kosovo, has indicated that it won't until Kosovo's independence is recognized by the UN). Such textual explanation would be helpful, and there is some right next to the map. I'm not really sure what you mean by the redundancy comment--which two categories do you think are redundant? -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 06:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you Janet. Your explanation confirms my suspiciions. I was certianly curious enough to open the tiny picture and I could see only Western Sahara (not named) and Beijing as not green. Are you sure Kosovo and Montenegro stand out, or that The Marshall Islands or Tuvalu can even be seen? Vut your text above has told me all that I needed to know and I would suggest you add it, whether or not you keep the useless tiny world map. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]])

::p.s. is [[Aruba]] a (non-participating) country? Or is it classed as a "Protectorate" and thus excluded? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 11:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm not sure what you mean by that - Aruba's taking part in these Olympics. [[User:DitzyNizzy|DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)]] ([[User talk:DitzyNizzy|talk]]) 12:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
::::So I see, my mistake. In any case I guess, in general, that country "status" is irrelevant - it's having a recognised NOC that counts. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 12:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

::::: I bet nobody can tell from the map that Macau is not taking part. [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 22:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Unlike Hong Kong, Macau has not established a recognized National Olympic Committee separate from that of the People's Republic of China; thus, the IOC considers competitors from Macau to be eligible for competition under the CHN NOC. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 02:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

::::::: I don't think it'd be possible for competitors from Macau to participate in the Olympics in the Chinese team. Nor did they participate in the Portuguese team. [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 23:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::Exactly right. Like Aruba, Puerto Rico has its own NOC, as does Hong Kong. Macau, however, does not. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 02:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Macau has its own NOC too. It is a member of the OCA, but has not yet been admitted to the IOC. [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 23:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

::::: It's obviously a bit complicated with the overlap/ separation between (1) countries which consider themselves an automomous nation (2) parent countries of these which do not (3) nations with a recognised NOC (4) nations without an NOC (5) nations with a non-recognised/un-registered NOC (6) whether or not country allowed to compete as part of a parent nation. I'm not sure the thumbnail-sized world map (with the key only visible when image os opened separately) can really do this complexity justice, especially wwhen (a) exceptions so few (b) size of the nations involved mostly so small (c) low resolution of the map. If the map must be kept, could it's resolution and size on the page be increased, but also all explanatory detail included in the text? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 12:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Would a separate list like the list of IOC members (but specific for the 2008 Olympics) help? [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 23:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Yes. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 22:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

::Well, I can tell the difference between the blue and green when the map is viewed at high resolution, but not when it's at the size which it has to be on the main article. As I understand the IOC position at the moment, Western Sahara should be colored green (as part of Morocco) and Kosovo should be colored green (as part of Serbia). The only gray that should be on the map would be dots for the Vatican City and Brunei. Thus, the map should be essentially all green -- which is what it currently appears to be. This shows that practically the entire world is competing, and provides a contrast to other games, especially the early ones and the ones hit by boycotts. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 02:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I agree, in that context, the map may have value. But how many readers will see the maps in series/ contrast like that and indeed how easy is that to do? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 22:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
::::I think, instead, a map showing non participating countries/NOC would be of any value. --[[User:Kvasir|Kvasir]] ([[User talk:Kvasir|talk]]) 20:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Agree, would be of more value. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

=== New Caledonia ===
The map appears to show that New Caledonia is not participating. Is this correct?<br>
My understanding (see [http://flagspot.net/flags/nc@oly.html this page] for example) is that it competes as part of France. Surely it should be green, just like French Guiana or Greenland, which are described as competing as part of France and Denmark respectively? --[[User:David Edgar|David Edgar]] ([[User talk:David Edgar|talk]]) 10:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, those 44 pixels do appear to be grey, don't they. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:: How many territories are taking part as part of their sovereign powers, in similar manner as New Caledonia and Greenland? [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 22:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


The number of athletes participating from each counry needs to be updated but I cant figure out how to access that information
when I get into the edit page it just has it a a wikitable and then the list of countries is not there. If someone who knows how to change that could tell me how I would be willing to update the information on each country. morpogostick22 <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Morpogostick22|Morpogostick22]] ([[User talk:Morpogostick22|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Morpogostick22|contribs]]) 20:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: The data for the list of NOCs is stored at [[Template:2008 Summer Olympics NOCs]] [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 20:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

== World Records In 2008 Olympics ==

I think that someone should add an article or a section about the world records that have been broken in this Olimpiad, what ya think hommies?--[[User:Josecarlos1991|Josecarlos1991]] ([[User talk:Josecarlos1991|talk]]) 07:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
: [[2008 Summer Olympics highlights]] should have what you're looking for. Enjoy!. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 10:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

== Bloated Article, difficult to display ==

Nice article, with lots of detail, plenty of links, and little graphic flags, etc. Too bad that, of all the hundreds of pages I've visited on Wikipedia, this is the only page that freezes up my computer for around thirty seconds to a minute. Looks like splitting it is the only reasonable option. [[User:Zadignose|zadignose]] ([[User talk:Zadignose|talk]]) 11:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

*Is your computer from 1997 or something? --[[User:Reezy|Reezy]] ([[User talk:Reezy|talk]]) 17:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

**No. And if a 2.81 GHz processor with 480 MB isn't top of the line, I reckon it should be able to handle most web browsing. However, I notice that today, without the several hundred little flags and graphics that were present yesterday, the problem is largely resolved. Will it stay that way? [[User:Zadignose|zadignose]] ([[User talk:Zadignose|talk]]) 07:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)



== United Kingdom ==

The United Kingdom should be changed to Great Britain because that is how they compete in the Olympics. Northern Irish competitors can choose Eire or Great Britain to participate for.
[[Special:Contributions/82.43.150.151|82.43.150.151]] ([[User talk:82.43.150.151|talk]]) 17:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
:What are you referring to? — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 18:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:: The Olympics is a competition between countries which recongizes individual performances. Great Britian is not a country and no mention of it should be included. Northern Irish competitors being able to choose the Republic is a violation of the competition rules, but yet again the world makes a seperate set of rules for the British..

== Medal count rankings ==

How should we do this? Currently it is ranked by countries with the most gold medals rather than total number of medals awarded. I had thought that the latter approach was more common than the former, although I don't have a strong enough opinion that I care enough about this to argue either way about it. What are people's thoughts? thx.[[User:Spinner145|Spinner145]] ([[User talk:Spinner145|talk]]) 08:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:The table is ranked by gold medals, this how the [[IOC]], [[IAAF]] and [[BBC]] rank the countries, The US however ranks by total number of medals. This is why the table is ranked by total number of golds. --&nbsp;[[User:AxG/Userpage|{{color|royalblue|'''<nowiki>[[</nowiki>&nbsp;axg'''}}]][[Special:Contributions/AxG|{{red|&nbsp;⁞⁞&nbsp;}}]][[User talk:AxG|{{black|'''talk&nbsp;<nowiki>]]</nowiki>'''}}]] 09:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The table is currently ranked by total medals. US POV? [[Special:Contributions/70.55.86.69|70.55.86.69]] ([[User talk:70.55.86.69|talk]]) 09:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:In that case, we should change that to the official one. We shouldn't bother referring to Yahoo's medal count, instead, go for the OFFICIAL site of the Beijing Olympics. [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 12:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL, funny how people are even thinking about the idea of ranking by total medals. The medal count has and will always be by gold medals. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.24.139.57|70.24.139.57]] ([[User talk:70.24.139.57|talk]]) 15:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Complete non-sense. The Total Medal count is and alway has been the standard that is until 2008 when the BBC decided it should differ. The IOC has traditionally listed Golds because the IOC does not support the traditional view that the games are a competition between countries. They intentionally listed it different so either you support that there is NO rank, inline with the IOC or you suport there is a winner which is total medal count. You simply have to decide. Either way there should be no rank column on the table
::yeah, we all know that has and always will only award gold medals too, right? lol. Again, I've seen it done both ways, but I think I agree actually, that the nubmber of golds seems to be the most commonly used ranking.[[User:Spinner145|Spinner145]] ([[User talk:Spinner145|talk]]) 06:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes its always been done by gold medals. It must be an american in charge of the article... <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Daz1865|Daz1865]] ([[User talk:Daz1865|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Daz1865|contribs]]) 11:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: False

Can we have the change to ranking by gold medals done? I feel the ranking by total medals is very US POV. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/134.148.5.120|134.148.5.120]] ([[User talk:134.148.5.120|talk]]) 12:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Counting by total medals has it's merits, if we count by gold only it removes significance of silver and bronze medals. Maybe after Olympics it will be useful to have two tables. [[Special:Contributions/75.10.130.226|75.10.130.226]] ([[User talk:75.10.130.226|talk]]) 21:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If we count by total it removes the significance of gold and silver. Unless the IOC changes the standard method, the official ranking is by gold medals. And even if they do change their ranking style at future Olympics, the tallies for this Olympics will be unaffected. [[Special:Contributions/76.65.22.118|76.65.22.118]] ([[User talk:76.65.22.118|talk]]) 22:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the idea of having two tables. The official ranking counts by gold and other tables are not needed. --[[User:Tam001|Tam001]] ([[User talk:Tam001|talk]]) 00:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

:The US media have been ranking according to total number of medals, understandable as they want to rank the US as no. 1, but, everywhere else in the world ranks using number of gold medals - this is the real benchmark as the number of people who WIN events is what is really important. Silver and bronze tallies come into play if there is a tie in the number of gold medals, in which case the country with the most silver would be ranked first. [[User:Pexise|Pexise]] ([[User talk:Pexise|talk]]) 09:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

::A table showing medals per capita population might be more interesting? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 09:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the two table method is the most fair option. It allows for both views on the matter without compromising tradition. Many people will be as equally interested in knowing the full medal count as they are in knowing the gold medal count. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nilrem1988|Nilrem1988]] ([[User talk:Nilrem1988|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nilrem1988|contribs]]) 15:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I think having two meal tables is overkill. Virtually everybody except the US tends to list countries by Gold count. The bolded top counts in the other columns give a quick reference so interested. If a user is really interested in sort by total, that capability is provided. Becouse some users may not be aware of the sort option, I suggest adding a small note instructing them to click on the sort icon. -- [[User:Tcncv|Tcncv]] ([[User talk:Tcncv|talk]]) 15:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I have added to the page of "Concerns and Controversies" and it has been threatened on my part by another user to stop or I will be blocked, however the information added is in regards to worldwide news which was in relation to the Medal Tally and how most other countries show the Tally in order of the most Gold however, in America it was decided to demonstrate the most medals, overall. How is this vandilism this website was quoted. http://www.smh.com.au/news/off-the-field/al-jazeera-follows-uss-olympics-lead/2008/08/22/1219262487056.html. In addition I feel it is important to state every controversy which occurred. This includes the under age chinese gymnast, the baton relay and the Tibet display. If it's true and factual ALL should be added. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klutzulmaniack|contribs]]) 03:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> --[[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]]) 03:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:I find it strange and confusing that you care about how the American media chooses to display the medal count. The IOC does not declare and official medal count and so it is up to each media output to choose their own way to report them, or not report them. The American media knows that Americans like to know ALL the winners or each and every medal, not just Gold. Calling NBC's choice to show all the medal winners a controversy shows nothing more than and underlying contempt for the USA. The rest of the World should join with Americans in celebrating ALL athletes and their participation. One World One Dream--[[User:DanteAgusta|DanteAgusta]] ([[User talk:DanteAgusta|talk]]) 03:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no arguement here. Wikipedia is meant to state fact. This happens to be one of them. You are on a misiion for world peace...(One World One Dream) I however am intent on using Wikipedia as it is meant to be used and this is as a site for people seeking facts. This is one of them. I have no opinions on it, I'm simply letting people know one of the many truth's that have occurred these Olympics. This is meant to be a neatral un opinionated website, but you keep letting your thoughts get in the way.--[[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]]) 03:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


I will make this point clear for everyone. There is NO OFFICIAL medal count. The IOC does not post one. The medal count does not matter. The US media has always show the total medal count due to the fact Americans like to know all the winners. Just because many country's media services just report Gold does not make it the OFFICIAL or the standard. Each network has the right to display the medal count according to however it's viewers prefer. This is with out a doubt, the dumbest thing I can think of to make a molehill out of. A controversy is someone using illegal drugs for performance, not how one network shows the medal count.

Now to how the table should display, then it should be laid out to how the Wiki Project has established for the normal, not by any other media.--[[User:DanteAgusta|DanteAgusta]] ([[User talk:DanteAgusta|talk]]) 03:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again there is no arguement here. We ALL understand there is NO Official medal Count. I am sure the whole world recognizes that. However whilst the rest of the world is counting by traditional standards America or the press anyway have chosen to display the medal count in accordance to overall medals won. No one else is doing that. It is by no means wrong or breaking a law of any kind, however it made headline aroungd the world. So it may be a "molehill" to you but the world knows and made it a "molehill", so now as a factual website Wiki should post it as what was seen by other countries...as a controversy whether you personally believe it isn't, you are once again letting your personal opinions get in the way of the neutrality and un biasedness of this site. Don't worry though. There is no issue anymore. I've solved it. But once again just to clarify it made headlines around the world because if America is (One World One Dream) as stated earler, they sure aren't showing it by putting themselves on top of the medal count. How is it, that every other Olympics the American media have displayed it by Gold Medal count always but one country shows its power and then different manouvers are introduced that were never used before.

: Very simple answer - they didn't. The US Olympic committee has always listed by Total Medal Count since the American's invented teh system in 1904. That is of course an important fact since the rest of the world is just following the American standard

Also I showed facts and information from the IOC. You're just letting your personal opinions get in the way of something YOU have turned into a molehill as this was in the news, it was FACT and that is that. I'll leave you with that thought.--[[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]]) 04:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

: Headlines around the world? Where please, apart from opinion piece mentioned above I don't see the headlines. Also, it simply not true that at every other olympics US media have ranked nations according to Gold medals won, see discussion below at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_Summer_Olympics#Controversy_Section_.22Jingoism.22 Controversy Section "Jingoism"]. [[User:BlueSalo|Голубое сало/Blue Salo]] ([[User talk:BlueSalo|talk]]) 04:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Why the controversy? We should rank by gold medals, which is the way that the IOC use for their semi-official medals table. But we should use sortable tables, to allow the user to re-rank the table with a single click. [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 04:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay that's interesting to know. here is a forum where people round the world are discussing it. [http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=20080821104328AApTE8N] I'm assuming no one here speaks Spanish but I will place some up from the Spanish news. I'm only standing by this point because it occured and people seem to be taking offence to it personally. Which is unfortunately not my intention. The news only gives us soo much information but the internet is our greatest source of A Current Affairs. I just want to ensure people know this happened. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klutzulmaniack|contribs]]) 04:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->--[[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]]) 04:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Blulap - That's a smart idea. I think that is possible acually. I think most people speaking on this topic are offended as it is close to home. I have previewed other medal tally's wihtin the past years. Mainly (mapsoftheworld.com) an American Website that it shows that it is counted by Gold in the past. --[[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]]) 05:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

: Uh really, you checked mapsoftheworld.com and this webpage showed you that it was counted by gold in the past? Maybe you can provide some real citations, as I did below at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_Summer_Olympics#Controversy_Section_.22Jingoism.22 Controversy Section "Jingoism"], citations that actually show the opposite of your claim, that is that at least some US newspapers ranked according to total medal count in the past. [[User:BlueSalo|Голубое сало/Blue Salo]] ([[User talk:BlueSalo|talk]]) 05:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:: So, we're all agreed, then, a gold medal won by China or USA is just as significant as one won by, say, Tunisia or Panama? Likewise for sliver and bronze, however one choses to rank them? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 17:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering there is ambiguity in terms of "whether the important number is 'golds' or 'total numbers'" does there really need to be a "rank" column in the table? Default to sorting by most golds, but the "rank" column is sort of biased to one reckoning over another, and both "golds" and "total medals" have merit as a metric for success, and I believe that Wikipedia should not have an official ranking standard considering a click of a button allows the reader to re-rank the table by whichever metric the reader is most interested in. [[Special:Contributions/12.217.241.217|12.217.241.217]] ([[User talk:12.217.241.217|talk]]) 23:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
: That might be OK for countries near the top of the table, but what about those in 33rd place? [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 02:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I just can't believe how big a deal this has turned into. Man don't worry. I won't write the article or continue adding coz I just realied ppl round the world already know America tried to hide it. & make it suit themselves. Not my opinion. Stated by others. So yer. Have a good day.--[[User:Klutzulmaniack|Klutzulmaniack]] ([[User talk:Klutzulmaniack|talk]]) 10:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

== bus crash ==

does the bus crash with the Australian doctor for the rowing team on board and a taxi with 5 Chinese in crtical condition belong here, on the concerns article, or on the highlights article? Or on the attack on American tourists aritcle? [[Special:Contributions/70.55.86.69|70.55.86.69]] ([[User talk:70.55.86.69|talk]]) 13:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

== NPOV ==

Please ensure more NPOV in this article:

:''Another cosmetic enhancement in China's quest for a perfect Summer Games was using a cute girl to lip-sync over the singing voice of a girl with "chubby face and crooked baby teeth" during the opening ceremony song Ode to the Motherland.''

If a press article is not NPOV, it can hardly stand as a creditable, NPOV source for quotation. At any rate, I hardly think there is anything wrong in selecting a young girl to sing for an Opening Ceremony. [[User:DORC|DORC]] ([[User talk:DORC|talk]]) 13:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:After this olympics, no one with breast implants, plastic surgery or anything fake will ever be allowed to participate again. Some media somewhere will say something. [[User:Benjwong|Benjwong]] ([[User talk:Benjwong|talk]]) 03:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

== Closing Ceremony ==

Is it usual to use postings on forums as sources?? [[User:Rbakker99|Rbakker99]] ([[User talk:Rbakker99|talk]]) 16:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:Usual? yes. Allowed? No. Per [[WP:RS]], forum postings (as well as blogs) are not considered reliable sources. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 17:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

== Split Games ==

Quote: ''The 2008 Beijing Olympics will also mark the third time that Olympic events will have been held in the territories of two different National Olympic Committees (NOC), with the equestrian events to be held in Hong Kong.''

: I know about Melbourne/Stockholm in 1956, but our lists that I've seen don't give any insight into what the other one was. What was it? -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 03:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Oddly enough, part of one of the sailing events in 1920 Antwerp Games were held in the territorial waters of the Netherlands. A very minor distinction, to be sure, but there it is. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 06:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks. Very interesting. Part of one event, eh. Was that always intended, or was it a kind of accident of history? I guess the difference is that the Netherlands was not an official "co-host nation" (if that's the correct term) in 1920, whereas Sweden was in 1956. Or am I wrong? It seems to me that if this information is mentioned at all in the Beijing 2008 article, and particularly in such a prominent position, it's more than just tantalising - it's getting into the area of psychological cruelty - to not provide the details. I looked around a few places, in vain, and had to end up asking here. What could we say about this, and where would it best be said? -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 06:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

::::I think the explanation was that the Dutch crews got tired of racing in Belgium, and since the event's only entrants were the two Dutch crews, they went home and had the last two out of the three scheduled races for the event back home. I don't believe it was planned beforehand. Our coverage of that is rather spotty... I don't think it's even mentioned on the event page or the sport page, but does get a note on the [[1920 Summer Olympics]] and [[1956 Summer Olympics]] articles. It could probably be added in a couple places. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 07:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:::: The 1956 games was actually two separate events. Melbourne and Stockholm are two separate hosts of two separate events, instead of co-hosts of one same event. The 2008 games is one event, albeit held within two different NOCs like 1956. And unlike 1920, however, the 2008 split requires IOC approval and involves a separate NOCs to host one of the items. [[User:The Observant|The Observant]] ([[User talk:The Observant|talk]]) 23:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::This gets more interesting. So, which of A and B would it be more correct to say:
:::::*(A) there were 2 "Games of the 16th Olympiad" (Melbourne and Stockholm), but only 1 "Games of the 29th Olympiad" (but shared between 2 NCOs, Beijing and Hong Kong)
:::::*(B) there was 1 "Games of the 16th Olympiad" (divided into 2 events, held in Melbourne and Stockholm), and 1 "Games of the 29th Olympiad" (shared between 2 NCOs, Beijing and Hong Kong)? -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 00:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

::::::My [[WP:OR|personal opinion]] is that option B is correct. There is one Olympic Games. While the host NOC is important, the key organization is actually the Organizing Committee - this year [[Beijing Organizing Committee for the Olympic Games|BOCOG]] - which is the body that actually puts the Games on. National Olympic Committees generally focus on their own athletes and teams; while they may help out with the bid process, they are not hosting organizations.
::::::One perk that host NOCs do get is the right to field athletes in every event. This varies a bit from sport to sport, but for the most part all sports have a provision in their Olympic qualification rules which allows the host country to automatically qualify for the events. I would guess that for Beijing 2008, this privilege extended only to athletes from mainland China, not to Hong Kong.
::::::While the matter is complicated a bit by the presence of national boundaries, the fact that the Games are geographically divided isn't really that uncommon. For the [[1976 Summer Olympics]], sailing events were held in [[Kingston, Ontario|Kingston]], several hundred kilometres and one province away from the host city of [[Montreal]]. The upcoming [[2010 Winter Olympics]] will be divided between two host cities, [[Vancouver]] and [[Whistler, BC|Whistler]]. (Which may be a very [[Sea-to-Sky Highway|challenging]] divide to cross.)- [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 00:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Yes, I was aware of that. The rowing, kayaking and canoeing events in 1956 were held on [[Lake Wendouree]] (currently completely dry) in [[Ballarat, Victoria|Ballarat]], and some soccer events in 2000 were held in [[Canberra]]. And there are lots of other examples. All within the same country, though. -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 01:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

== Opening Ceremony lip sync reference ==

The reference about the lip sync episode points to a rather emtpy place. I would recommend to change it to something a bit more interesting such as: [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10526741 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10526741] [[User:Hannes.nz|Hannes.nz]] ([[User talk:Hannes.nz|talk]]) 04:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
: I think it is important to remain neutral and objective on this matter for the moment because this is still a very recent news. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ingramhk|Ingramhk]] ([[User talk:Ingramhk|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ingramhk|contribs]]) 15:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

All the reports about the lip sync incident were directly or indirectly based on the interview with the music directory Chen Qigang. However, something was ADDED in translation by reporters to sensationalize the issue. In the interview, Chen did not say "chubby face and crooked baby teeth" or anything bad about Yang Peiyi. The links to the video of Chen's interview, the English transcript, the scan of the official program guide of the opening ceremony (which listed the names of both girls) and a summary of the issue can be found at:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20080815_1.htm
http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2008/08/12/an-imperfect-perfection/

[[User:Lang203|Lang203]] ([[User talk:Lang203|talk]]) 13:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

== venue articles ==

The venue articles need expansion/improvement, since most are stubs, and several don't have the "chinese name" attached, or the ''official name''. [[Special:Contributions/70.51.11.210|70.51.11.210]] ([[User talk:70.51.11.210|talk]]) 11:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

== age of chinese gymnist ==

it has been comfirmed that at least one of them was 13 here [[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_gym_underage_chinese]], now should we include it? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Not G. Ivingname|Not G. Ivingname]] ([[User talk:Not G. Ivingname|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Not G. Ivingname|contribs]]) 15:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I don't read that reference as confirming anything. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 15:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
::Another item for [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics]], and it may warrent a mention on the [[Gymnastics at the 2008 Summer Olympics]], but I would say "no" for the main page. Cheers--[[User:Cbradshaw|Cbradshaw]] ([[User talk:Cbradshaw|talk]]) 20:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Chinese officials insisted they are not underage. The young boy who marched with Yao Ming is 9, and he looked like 5 or 6. [[User:Speaker1978|Speaker1978]] ([[User talk:Speaker1978|talk]]) 21:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
::::If you have heard the commentaries or the announcment in the Stadium, the boy is not an athlete but a local hero credited to saving 2 of his classmates in the [[Sichuan Earthquake]]. What age someone LOOKS LIKE is irrelevant. I wonder why no one has raised doubt about [[Shawn Johnson]]'s age, she doesn't look like 16 at all. --[[User:Kvasir|Kvasir]] ([[User talk:Kvasir|talk]]) 21:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

== Is it possible to gray out/dark the colors in the 'Calendar' .. ==

..for days that have passed? --[[User:Apotetios|Apotetios]] ([[User talk:Apotetios|talk]]) 18:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

== DOPING? ==

There isn't a single mention of the word '''[[doping]]''' in the entire article. Are we living in the 21st century where a large number of athletes, if not the majority in some disciplines, are doping? Can anyone actually believe that doping is not a significant, perhaps hidden, part of the games? Is this article written according to the censorship rules of China? [[User:Nergaal|Nergaal]] ([[User talk:Nergaal|talk]]) 21:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:This article is not censored. You are looking at the wrong place. See [[Doping at the Olympic Games]]. [[User:Benjwong|Benjwong]] ([[User talk:Benjwong|talk]]) 22:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
::SO having a hidden list of broadcasters is more important than presenting the issue of doping at this Olympiad? [[User:Nergaal|Nergaal]] ([[User talk:Nergaal|talk]]) 23:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:::There's also the [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics]] article. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 23:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There have been no significant doping cases at these Games - certainly nothing approaching the notability of the [[Konstantinos Kenteris]] case in [[2004 Summer Olympic Games|2004]], or [[Ben Johnson (sprinter)|Ben Johnson]] in [[1988 Summer Olympic Games|1988]]. Your personal opinion that many athletes are doping is just your opinion. If there are verifiable, notable issues, then maybe they can be put in the article. At this point, there are none. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 23:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:Then add into the article that there have not been any notable mentions of doping at this OG. Btw, several Russians were suspended just beforethe game, which should be notable enough. Anyways, just because [[Barry Bonds]] was never caught doping should not mean that the word doping should be excluded from his article. [[User:Nergaal|Nergaal]] ([[User talk:Nergaal|talk]]) 20:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
:How about this: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/15/2336655.htm?site=olympics/2008 ? [[User:Nergaal|Nergaal]] ([[User talk:Nergaal|talk]]) 21:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
:well, there's also this: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=3463251 ? The Bulgarians are considered among the best weightlifting teams in the world and were expected to win multiple golds especially considering Hussein Razazadeh of Iran decided not to compete. Yet, b/c of doping, their entire team has been disqualified. Just b/c Olympic weightlifting isn't popular in the US doesn't mean this isn't important. [[User:ArdetNecConsumitor|ArdetNecConsumitor]] ([[User talk:ArdetNecConsumitor|talk]]) 05:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.172.146.214|24.172.146.214]] ([[User talk:24.172.146.214|talk]]) </small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== bot to keep various stats consistent within and across articles ==

FWIW, I only started looking at the various pages related to this year's [[2008 Summer Olympics|games]] this evening and I know I'm a little late to the game. (a week's passed already)

I noticed [[List of 2008 Summer Olympics medal winners]] seems to have all the data you'd need in order to maintain medal counts in infoboxes on players and countries pages and medal tables on pages like [[2008 Summer Olympics]], [[2008 Summer Olympics medal table]], and [[Archery at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Women's individual]]. I'm imagining a workflow where people would update only [[List of 2008 Summer Olympics medal winners]] and updates to the various counts would be propagated automatically by bot(s).

Actually, on second, thought maybe it would be better to have the master values on individual event pages (like [[Archery at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Women's individual]]. Probably slightly less scary for new editors and a little harder to make a mistake. (e.g. add to wrong event)

Either way I'm sure some editors (or a bot) will put notes in comments around autonomously updated data telling people to go update some other page instead of this one and no matter what some people will change it in the wrong place. All pages which have source data or which are updated autonomously should be monitored for conflicting edits.

a few more tasks:
*logging all changes to medal status for events by non-bots on the corresponding event's talk page
*making sure pages are in the right cats, have the right infoboxes/sortkeys

I've played a little with pywikipediabot in the last few days (only reading pages not editing so far though) and would be happy to make a bot to do some or all of these tasks.

Thoughts? Is there a demand for these tasks? [[User:Jeremyb|Jeremyb]] ([[User talk:Jeremyb|talk]]) 07:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

== Transportation ==

Given that we're trying to streamline this article, this seemed bloated and full of a lot of irrelevant facts. I tried to streamline it and update it grammatically, and also added a blurb about Beijing Airport's spectacular new Terminal 3, let me know what you think.[[User:Spinner145|Spinner145]] ([[User talk:Spinner145|talk]]) 07:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
:OK, since my edits (which I didn't think were controversial) were reverted almost immediately, let me summarize what I wanted to do to the section, and please let me know if you disagree. (1) Update verb tense--a lot of this section is out of date, talking about past or ongoing events in the future tense. (2) Include a blurb about new terminal 3 at Beiming airport (biggest airport terminal in the world).

:Also, I propose delete some portions I did not think particulalry relevevant or interesting to an article on the Olympics, i.e. (1) description of the intra-airport train transport system, (2) discussions of ability of new subway cars to carry cell phone signals and broadcast TV programs, (3) the description of the weather warning system at the Beijing airport (why is this even notable?), (4) delete some detail on the bus systems--do we really want to go into such detail about how many buses, mini-buses, private cars, etc. are going to be utilized?

:Don't want to do anything on such an important article without consensus, but this section is too long IMO and I don't think people coming to read about the Olympics really are all that interested in the portions I propose to delete. thx.[[User:Spinner145|Spinner145]] ([[User talk:Spinner145|talk]]) 09:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

::Those seem like reasonable edits to me. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 11:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

== Closing Ceremony 2 ==

I just noticed this BBC article detailing who would be appearing in the London segment of the closing ceremony (Beckham, Jimmy Page, Leona Lewis).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olympics/2008/08/beckham_to_appear_at_closing_c.html

Is that a reliable enough source? If so, please add (I'm also not sure where to put it).

[[User:Rbakker99|Rbakker99]] ([[User talk:Rbakker99|talk]]) 10:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

== more of closing ceremoy ==

over last several days, i keep seeing ads/hearing audio mentions on nbc that michael phelps will be making special appearance from london during the closing. i also read in the ny times mid week an oblique mention about him leaving beijing a la "he was en route to london for a special appearance" (didn't mention satellite hookup (or whatever) to beijing closing ceremony. of course in well less than 30-36 hours all will be known about who appeared when/where during ceremony (except of course those only watching nbc in usa where almost entire coverage seems to be tape delayed even on east coast...sorry i just had to vent).
[[Special:Contributions/68.173.2.68|68.173.2.68]] ([[User talk:68.173.2.68|talk]]) 13:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

== Minor edit in third introductory paragraph ==

"The Chinese government has promoted the games to highlight China's emergence on the world stage"

replace "emergence" with "reemergence" to make sentence more accurate <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Abercrombiegal|Abercrombiegal]] ([[User talk:Abercrombiegal|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Abercrombiegal|contribs]]) 08:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: "Reemergence"? How? [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 10:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
::Well, China was '''the''' dominant power for almost all of civilization except for the last couple centuries so the user above does have a point. [[Special:Contributions/76.65.22.118|76.65.22.118]] ([[User talk:76.65.22.118|talk]]) 12:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Point taken. :) [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 12:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Dominant over their corner of the world maybe but not on any of the other continents. I think emergence is more accurate; they've been a major player in world politics for at least 60 years (eg UN security council seat) but are becoming more prominent lately. [[Special:Contributions/78.86.71.53|78.86.71.53]] ([[User talk:78.86.71.53|talk]]) 16:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

:So if China wasn't dominant over the world, who was?

:If your answer is "no nation was dominant over the world", well that would make those who were dominant in their regions "the dominant power(s)" and "on the world stage", which is in agreement with changing "emergence" to "reemergence" in the article. --''<span style="font-family: Calibri, Tahoma, sans-serif;">[[User talk:Latish redone|l a t i]] [[Special:Contributions/Latish redone|s h r e]] [[User:Latish redone|d o n e]] (previously User:All in)</span>'' 16:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, there was no world stage in today's sense during most of human history. Up until globalization developed, there were multiple world stages because there was close to no political (and cultural) interaction whatsoever between some parts of mankind. [[User:Fank1|fank1]] ([[User talk:Fank1|talk]]) 17:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's almost settled then china brings home heavy gold and the us walk away with nothing. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Johnysums|Johnysums]] ([[User talk:Johnysums|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Johnysums|contribs]]) 12:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I don't think reemergence is a good choice. Changing it to communist China or modern China is better.
"The Chinese government has promoted the games to highlight communist China's emergence on the world stage"
[[Special:Contributions/161.185.151.218|161.185.151.218]] ([[User talk:161.185.151.218|talk]]) 20:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

== Protest zones link should not point to US free speech zone or atleast point to it's own page ==

What does the Beijing protest zone have to do with US Free Speech Zone? Can anyone say one's afforded the same protection in Beijing protest zone as in US free speech zone? I've follow the link and the US free speech zone is specific to the US and no where else. I do not like the current context which implies Beijing protest zone is the same as US free speech zone. [[Special:Contributions/161.185.151.218|161.185.151.218]] ([[User talk:161.185.151.218|talk]]) 20:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
:I've redirected that link to [[Concerns over the 2008 Summer Olympics#Protest_permits_and_zones]] - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 03:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

== Controversy - women's 100m ==

I've removed the following addition to the controversies section:
:''"In the women's 100 meter dash, American sprinter [[Torri Edwards]] clearly [[false started]], but the officials didn't call the false start. As a result Edwards hesitated along with the other American sprinters allowing the Jamaican sprinters to have their first 100 meter sweep in Olympic history. The officials refused to do the sprint race over when it was clear the race was not fairly done."''
This [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26258180/#storyContinued reference] was provided.
I do not think this entry conforms to the [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]]: "clearly false started" and "not fairly done" are statements of opinion presented as fact. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 17:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well ok how do we state this in a way that is neutral. I mean in all seriousness that's the truth. She false started, the officials messed up and didn't call it, other sprinters reacted as well, even when it was realized that she false started the officials refused to do the race over even though they were wrong.[[User:Mcelite|Mcelite]] ([[User talk:Mcelite|talk]]) 00:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

:I wouldn't state it on this page at all. It does not appear to be a major, notable controversy. If it is mentioned anywhere, it should probably be on the page [[Athletics at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Women's 100 metres]]. Which it is, in a neutral fashion. - [[User:EronMain|Eron]]<sup>[[User Talk:EronMain|Talk]]</sup> 02:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Precisely. This was not a major incident of these Games; it gets mentioned on the event page, and it is currently done well there. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 03:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it's still an incident. The officials messed up with not calling the false start that she did (not opinionated). It's kind of like saying well we're sorry we messed up but we don't feel like doing it over because we don't want to hurt feelings.[[User:Mcelite|Mcelite]] ([[User talk:Mcelite|talk]]) 06:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
:With respect, this sounds like sour grapes. You seem convinced she was hard done by - and in truth she may have been - but an appeal was lodged, considered, and dismissed. End of story. You don't know that the decision to dismiss the appeal was for the reasons you suggest. If Torri Edwards and her people want to somehow take it further, that's a matter for them, and we'll report whatever happens. But this isn't the place to perpetuate the issue. -- [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 07:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Only thing I'm saying is that she false started which is true, but the officials didn't call it. Furthermore, refused to do it over which wasn't fair. That's all I'm saying and it should be included.[[User:Mcelite|Mcelite]] ([[User talk:Mcelite|talk]]) 15:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
:: Wow losers got false start and lost want to complain about it? If Olympic has whining as a sports, she will for sure to win. [[Special:Contributions/129.59.8.10|129.59.8.10]] ([[User talk:129.59.8.10|talk]]) 19:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

== error in the Calendar section? ==

In the Calendar section in the row for Athletics, the third (of 5) dot under Aug 19 should probably be for the women's 400 meters, not the women's 400 meter hurdles. The third (of 3) dot under Aug 20 already points to the women's 400 meter hurdles.

[[User:Richardchenca|Richardchenca]] ([[User talk:Richardchenca|talk]]) 17:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)Richard Chen

: You're absolutely right. I've fixed it. Thanks for the heads-up! -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 19:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should change the two cycling events (BMX), that are due for august 22nd, instead of 21st because of the rain. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.20.2.116|96.20.2.116]] ([[User talk:96.20.2.116|talk]]) 02:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Restore ref #29 (name=Networks Fight) ==

Can anyone pull up an old revision to restore ref #29 under the [[2008 Summer Olympics#Broadcast|Broadcast]] section? I seem to have a problem pulling up the source of ''any'' old versions; I always get the current text (missing the actual reference). Tried multiple browsers, so it's not a local problem. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color: #008;">'''''E''dokter'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Edokter|<span style="color: #080;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 22:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
:Fixed it... I had to go back a few weeks(!) before before it let me see an old version. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color: #008;">'''''E''dokter'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Edokter|<span style="color: #080;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 22:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

== Why no focus on India/ ==

India is a great country!! I believe that India will tie China and USA at next Olympics on medal count and India will top medal count at 2016 Olympics in Delhi with Russia second. JAI HIND! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Npsharma|Npsharma]] ([[User talk:Npsharma|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Npsharma|contribs]]) 14:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Why is no coverage on Abhinav Bindra's historic victory. I think there should be a mention definately. ~~ <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Npsharma|Npsharma]] ([[User talk:Npsharma|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Npsharma|contribs]]) 14:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: This page is a general page for the whole Olympics, so shouldn't focus on any single country (other than the host), sport, or competitor. Abhinav Bindra's victory is already mentioned in [[2008 Summer Olympics highlights]], as one of the highlights of Day 3. [[User:Bluap|Bluap]] ([[User talk:Bluap|talk]]) 14:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
:While India surely is an interesting and remarkable country, it is by no means a significant power in sports. It only has three medals in total, which is very unimpressive. What makes you think that USA won't make it to the top in 2016? --[[Special:Contributions/217.172.29.4|217.172.29.4]] ([[User talk:217.172.29.4|talk]]) 14:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
::You believe India will tie US and China in next olympic? LOL thats too funny, India only sent 64 athletes to Beijing,
while US and China sent 600+. [[User:Speaker1978|Speaker1978]] ([[User talk:Speaker1978|talk]]) 18:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
: India won't be able to top the medal table in Delhi in 2016 - they cancelled their bid for 2016 and are going for 2020 instead. (That's not to mention that they've only won 20 medals in more than 100 years, 11 of which have been in hockey.)[[User:DitzyNizzy|DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)]] ([[User talk:DitzyNizzy|talk]]) 19:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

== Updates needed on the Medal table in this article. ==

The other article is up to date, but this one isn't: [[2008 Summer Olympics medal table]]. [[User:Menrunningpast|Menrunningpast]] ([[User talk:Menrunningpast|talk]]) 15:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

== The Calendar ==

I've noticed a mistake in the calendar, but I can't discover how to edit it. Someone's put "23rt" when it should be "23rd". Thank you. [[User:DitzyNizzy|DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)]] ([[User talk:DitzyNizzy|talk]]) 14:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

== Guangdong Olympic Stadium ==

Removed a misleading sentence re Guangdong Olympic Stadium: "The [[Guangdong Olympic Stadium]] was originally planned, constructed, and completed in 2001 for the games, but a decision was made to construct a new stadium in Beijing.{{Clarifyme|date=May 2008}}<ref>[http://www.architectureweek.com/2002/0501/design_1-1.html ArchitectureWeek - Design - China's Banner Stadium - 2002.0501<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>" The source given only says "Guangdong Olympic Stadium in Guangzou, China, which '''will help host''' the 2008 Olympic Summer Games". Could never have been main stadium as outside the host city. --[[User:Mervyn|mervyn]] ([[User talk:Mervyn|talk]]) 10:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
:Sentence restored, there are multiple sources on this. All it needs is a clarification. --[[User:Kvasir|Kvasir]] ([[User talk:Kvasir|talk]]) 20:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
== Heavy edit needed ==


I have just modified 20 external links on [[2008 Summer Olympics]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=779536145 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
The article starts saying the Olympiad already has finished, but the rest of the article doesnt. It's in a mix of past, present, and future tenses. O.o <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/190.134.1.55|190.134.1.55]] ([[User talk:190.134.1.55|talk]]) 14:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showsports.aspx?id=SPOEN20080060086&ch=8%2F4%2F2008%209%3A09%3A00%20PM
:Editors are kinda busy watching the Closing Ceremony now, LOL! Seriously, those would be addressed in due time. [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 15:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080809223815/http://en.beijing2008.cn/venues/equ/index.shtml to http://en.beijing2008.cn/venues/equ/index.shtml
::Maybe not quite in due time, though. The event is over, and the article still tells us that The Beijing National Stadium will be the site of the opening ceremonies, for instance. [[User:Zadignose|zadignose]] ([[User talk:Zadignose|talk]]) 23:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110723070956/http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_1056.pdf to http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_1056.pdf
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== Controversy Section "Jingoism" ==


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The section regarding the USA ranking countries by medal count is poorly written: It sounds, unfortunately, like it was written by someone with a poor grasp of the English language. Furthermore, controversy is only where people look to find it. The mainstream American media has '''always''' ranked medals by most won, even when the Soviet Union would win the most, or in the Winter Olympics when the USA has had poor showings. This section seems more interested in criticizing the United States than recognizing that while most countries rank by golds, the USA doesn't.[[User:Seeyardee|Seeyardee]] ([[User talk:Seeyardee|talk]]) 15:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)seeyardee
:Looks irritatingly like pushing NPOV point to me, too. Claims "made worldwide headlines" wihout providing proof. Didn't make headlines over here in Germany, amyway... -- [[User:MegA|megA]] ([[User talk:MegA|talk]]) 15:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
::It's definitely using some weasel words, and is not written in coherent sentences. For instance:
"However contrary to popular opinion the USA have not always dominated the Olympics as the number one for golds in fact in the 1992 Summer Olympics in Barcelona, Spain they were second to the Super Power country and rivals the USSR today Russia"


Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 13:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
:::All around the world the table of medals are sorted by gold medals winners. If you don't believe this, only see the Wikipedia in all languages it exists. Why in english should be different??...I answer myself... because US refuse they lost fisrt place in gold medals count first time in 7 decades...--[[Special:Contributions/190.21.101.108|190.21.101.108]] ([[User talk:190.21.101.108|talk]]) 15:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
Popular opinion of who? This is unreferenced, and in my personal experience, most Americans KNOW we don't win every Olympic Games in Gold count... Also, the sentence does not make grammatical sense. The entire section is unnecessary as it is unreferenced and doesn't use NPOV. [[User:Wikiwikikid|Wikiwikikid]] ([[User talk:Wikiwikikid|talk]]) 15:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
::The world seems to have a very short memory, I find it rather amusing to be quite honest. The proof's in the pudding I guess. Let's take a neutral source... like "USA Today". http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/default.htm Please note that they rank by total medals in line with the rest of the US media. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2004table.jpg Here's the table from 2004, ranking by Gold. The "total medals" thing is new, it is limited to the US, and it is directly related to the US losing. [[User:Laomei|Laomei]] ([[User talk:Laomei|talk]]) 00:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


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::: Your "proof" is rather funny. Because above the table it reads, In Sydney, the top five countries .... USA 97 (40 gold), Russia 88 (32 gold), ...., what rather confirms that US media ranks after most medals, at least in Sydney, and not after most gold medals. [[User:BlueSalo|Голубое сало/Blue Salo]] ([[User talk:BlueSalo|talk]]) 04:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080822030710/http://en.beijing2008.cn/spirit/beijing2008/graphic/pictograms/ to http://en.beijing2008.cn/spirit/beijing2008/graphic/pictograms/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080825021441/http://www.news24.com/News24/Sport/Olympics2008/0%2C%2C2-9-2370_2372929%2C00.html to http://www.news24.com/News24/Sport/Olympics2008/0%2C%2C2-9-2370_2372929%2C00.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101207052845/http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g_Ts7Mez2-NSOzTZbrAStD1DgTuQ to http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g_Ts7Mez2-NSOzTZbrAStD1DgTuQ


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:::: And a cursory search in [[LexisNexis]] shows that indeed at least some US media ranks according to the total medal count. For example, the New York Daily News ranks Canada before Bulgaria, although Bulgaria had more gold medals (The Daily News medal count were the medal count I could find there. Another example, St Petersburg Times, Athens Olympics, Russia ranked before China, although China won more gold medals. [[User:BlueSalo|Голубое сало/Blue Salo]] ([[User talk:BlueSalo|talk]]) 05:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


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:::Countries are neither "winners" or "losers" at the Olympics according to the IOC. This is an irrelevant discussion. If you choose to look at the US as a "loser" as a country with the highest total medals and second most gold medals, that's your choice. It doesn't belong in the article. I hope you will embrace the spirit of the Games in recognizing the themes of unity and peace between all the countries and celebrating the acheivements of athletes who have dedicated their lives to their sport. Cheers.-[[User:Cbradshaw|Cbradshaw]] ([[User talk:Cbradshaw|talk]]) 00:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't know (or care) how the American media usually references medal counts, but Cbradshaw's comment seems to make sense. That wasn't my complaint though. My complaint is in the unsourced (and I believe false) assertion that Americans seem to have the "popular opinion" that we believe we win every Olympic Games. [[User:Wikiwikikid|Wikiwikikid]] ([[User talk:Wikiwikikid|talk]]) 04:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


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::::Obviously US isn't a loser, but they lose the first place in the gold count.--[[Special:Contributions/190.21.101.108|190.21.101.108]] ([[User talk:190.21.101.108|talk]]) 15:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
This is insane, the table is designed to show all medals. You can clearly make the table list the count by any of the 4 options given, Gold, Silver, Bronze, or total medals won. If you don't like it, then get over it.--[[User:DanteAgusta|DanteAgusta]] ([[User talk:DanteAgusta|talk]]) 15:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
:But in every way you sort the table, the rank always show China is the number 1. Limpiao--[[Special:Contributions/190.21.101.108|190.21.101.108]] ([[User talk:190.21.101.108|talk]]) 16:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


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:: Should use weighted ranking, gold = 3 points, silver=2, brownz = 1 [[User:Speaker1978|Speaker1978]] ([[User talk:Speaker1978|talk]]) 16:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160421235456/http://m.bt.com.bn/international_sport/2008/08/23/beijing_buzz to http://m.bt.com.bn/international_sport/2008/08/23/beijing_buzz


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== Disputed sports ==


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Do we really need to mention that there were scoring disputes in gymnastics, taekwondo, and boxing just because some Americans had some problem with the scoring? Can't the representative of the country file an official dispute with the sport's governing body if they really think their issue has merit (just as Serbia filed on the 200m men's breast stroke)? Other countries who lost a medal event probably also had "issues with scoring" just like contestants in the qualification round of "American Idol" thought the judging was bad too. Proper scoring is a perennial problem not just at this Olympics so I don't know why it even deserves a mention here. [[User:Angry bee|Angry bee]] ([[User talk:Angry bee|talk]]) 19:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
:I removed the mention of boxing as none of the refs support any dispute in boxing. I also removed gymnastics since only one ref was provided which was a newspaper blog mentioning the points awarded were controversial but I doubt that's unusual and definitely a single blog ref isn't enough for us to mention it, it gives undue weight to what is likely a minor issue (it may belong in an article on one of the athletes and/or in the gymanstics events for these games). The ref itself primarily talks about the tie-breaker system which is not a dispute since the tiebreaker system was already part of the rules even if not often applied to the level that they were in this instance and I don't think anyone disagrees it was applied correctly. Some people may not think it's fair, but that disputes the rule rather then it's application in this instance. I left in taekwondo. I'm not convinced it should be there personally but one of the results was overturned after a scoring mistake, evidentally a first, although that's not really a dispute as opposed to a mistake (unless the one who ended up losing disputes the overturning of the original decision) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 20:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
::I second Angry Bee, going back in past olympic articles, I noticed there was never a section on scoring disputes or contraversies (the only one showed up is a proven contraversy in 2002 olympics). So far, none of those has being prove so they totally don't belong to this page. If we want to include it, then a similar section should be added to the 2004 olympics to start because gymnastics was under so much scrutiny back then (include a proven instance that a judge miscalculated the score for men all-around).[[Special:Contributions/69.204.249.221|69.204.249.221]] ([[User talk:69.204.249.221|talk]]) 02:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


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== The Motto should change ==


==GA Reassessment==
The chinese text of Motto 'One World, One Dream' 同一個世界 同一個夢想 in articles should change to 同一个世界 同一个梦想 for this is simplified chinese writing characters. The present chinese authorities and society are using chinese simplified characters so I think the Motto in chinese text should using chinese simplified caracters. Thank you. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Liwu|Liwu]] ([[User talk:Liwu|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Liwu|contribs]]) 04:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/2008 Summer Olympics/1}}
: Noted. According to an image from the official site, [http://images.beijing2008.cn/52/39/Img212053952.jpg see here], the motto is written in [[Simplified Chinese]] text. [[User:Xeltran|Xeltran]] ([[User talk:Xeltran|talk]]) 06:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
::Hong Kong was an Olympic venue, HK uses traditional chinese, both should appear. [[Special:Contributions/70.55.85.122|70.55.85.122]] ([[User talk:70.55.85.122|talk]]) 12:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:08, 12 July 2024

Good article2008 Summer Olympics has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
In the news Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 4, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
June 27, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
January 5, 2013Good article nomineeListed
October 30, 2014Peer reviewReviewed
March 26, 2023Good article reassessmentKept
In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on August 25, 2024.
Current status: Good article

Broadcasting in Peru

[edit]

ATV (Peruvian Network) share the rights to host the games. They will both broadcast them in Peru.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlma97~enwiki (talk • contribs) 15:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Broadcasting in Spain

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The public Spanish network TVE has a High Definition channel TVE-HD which can be tuned in the Digital+ pay package. I can't edit the broadcaster box. Please somebody add this.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.31.89.161 (talk) 12:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

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GA Reassessment

[edit]

2008 Summer Olympics

[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result: Kept - I have fixed the issues. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An article that's reported to have "Potentially dated statements (2008), ... (December 2018), Unsourced passages need footnotes [citation needed] (July 2021)" on the good article cleanup listing page. Some uncited material looks to be

  • The 2008 Beijing Olympics caused traditional Hutong neighborhoods to be cleared to construct modern Olympic stadiums. In an effort to ensure success for the Games, the government invested billions in building new infrastructure, although clearance to tiny, outdated neighborhoods in Beijing called hutongs resulted (Petrun). Jim Yardley, a New York Times reporter interviewed Pan Jinyu, a 64-year-old local resident: "They [the government] don't want foreigners to see this scarred old face." Feng Shuqin and her husband, Zheng Zhanlin, had lived in their house for 50 years, and the family had owned the property before the Communists took control in 1949. The government, trying to clear the area, offered them to move with a compensatory sum of US$175,000, but the family insisted the land was worth US$1.4 million (Yardley). Michael Meyer, an American who lives in the hutongs, reported that 500,000 residents were relocated from their homes before the Olympics began (Meyer).
  • the Uniforms and Officials section
  • Look of the games sections

among others along with the legacy section reportedly needing updates. Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:54, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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