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Is it just me or is this article full of conjecture and controversy? This is not up to par and needs to be rewritten, in the meantime it should be locked.
{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=Low}}
The talk page could do with a bit of choppy-choppy as well.--[[Special:Contributions/24.197.252.128|24.197.252.128]] ([[User talk:24.197.252.128|talk]]) 04:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Creationism|Intelligent design=yes|Intelligent design-importance=high|importance=}}

{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}}
It's quite obvious that the tone of most of this article is not neutral, but hostile.[[Special:Contributions/71.155.241.119|71.155.241.119]] ([[User talk:71.155.241.119|talk]]) 06:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=mid}}

{{WikiProject Television|importance=Mid}}
== [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment ==
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WikiProject Biography Assessment Drive
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis|archiveprefix=Talk:Ben Stein/Archives/|format=Y|age=26297|index=yes|archivebox=yes|box-advert=yes}}

The article may be improved by following the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article|WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps]] to producing at least a B article. -- [[User:Yamara|Yamara]] 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"According to the Associated Press, in 2007, Stein crossed party lines and donated $2,000 to the U.S. Senate campaign of liberal Al Franken. He has also made comments against the management of the Iraq war. [8]"
<br />I have yet to see any reference of Ben Stein crossing party lines and contributing to Al Franken's campaign in the provided source. The statement referenced a YouTube video of an interview between Neil Cavuto and Stein. No mention of crossing party lines or financial contributions. --[[Special:Contributions/65.89.243.81|65.89.243.81]] ([[User talk:65.89.243.81|talk]]) 15:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

==The Article Ignores How Stein Dealt With the Draft==

Had I not been drafted in 1968, I also would have graduated from law school in 1970. The conscription pressure was intense. Any biographical article on somebody Stein's age MUST deal with military service -- or lack thereof. Failure to do so is tantamount to ignoring the elephant in the room. I say this not as any enemy of Stein's; to the contrary, I like him. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.44.144.158|70.44.144.158]] ([[User talk:70.44.144.158|talk]]) 00:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Locking this page to unregistered user edits==

For some reason, this page is a vandal magnet. Will someone please lock it, so that only registered users can edit it?

:Please define "vandal" for us. Are they truly vandals or are they users who provide comments and references that are contrary to your own beliefs? --[[Special:Contributions/70.129.134.24|70.129.134.24]] ([[User talk:70.129.134.24|talk]]) 16:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

::It's because Stein is an irrational moron on a few subjects. Here is some that I found:
::Stein began his political career as a speechwriter and lawyer for United States President Richard Nixon, and was in charge of licking Nixon's balls. Stein was one of many public figures speculated to have been Deep Throat. As far back as May 3, 1976, Time magazine had speculated on the possibility of Stein being Deep Throat, though he did like to give Nixon blow jobs! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.112.121.67|207.112.121.67]] ([[User talk:207.112.121.67|talk]]) 20:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::I agree. Not with Stein deepthroating Nixon, but with semi-protecting this article. No sense in reverting every single time. Especially the quote at the end of the "Views on Science" section. --[[User:Hamsterlopithecus|Hamsterlopithecus]] ([[User talk:Hamsterlopithecus|talk]]) 23:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

::::He just made a movie that basically made him look like an uneducated jackass and deserves many of the things being said about him. 'However, this is an encyclopedia and must remain neutral.' This article should be trimmed of the controversy and locked.[[Special:Contributions/24.197.252.128|24.197.252.128]] ([[User talk:24.197.252.128|talk]]) 04:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

== Image ==

The image of Ben Stein is 404-compatible. Is this a Wikipedia bug or an image bug or an article bug?

:There must have been a problem with the image. I have commented it out from the article for now, thanks for the notice. [[User:Dori|Dori]] | [[User talk:Dori|Talk]] 00:29, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

::It's one of the "January gap" images that were lost outright. I've removed it completely. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|✎]] 02:39, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That's not a good picture that's on there now. We can do better than that. I'm going to write to Ben's agent and get a real press photo of him and the permission to use it. Unless, of course, anyone has any objection. I've already done it for [[Dana Reeve]] and [[Red Skelton]]. And I'm trying to do it for [[Tara Strong]]. I think every celebrity deserves a decent picture in Wikipedia to go along with their article. [[User:Joedeshon|Joe]] 03:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

:I found a Creative Commons (CC) licensed photo on Flickr but it's a non-commercial version of CC so it can't go on Commons. Does anyone know if that licence is allowed on en:Wikipedia directly... or someone can contact the Flickr user to see if he will relicence it? (would need to be cropped too). <nowiki>http://flickr.com/photos/racingmix/248617071/</nowiki> --[[User:Georgeryp|Georgeryp]] 03:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

== Poverty lawyer ==
What is a poverty lawyer? [[User:Edward|Edward]] 20:31, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Most famous role ==

I came to this article, and I noticed that [[User:63.134.129.166|63.134.129.166]] had added a reference to Ben Stein's role in ''Richie Rich'' which made it seem as if Ben Stein were famous for playing an economics teacher in that movie. Since this wasn't the case, I looked to edit the text. I then asked myself why ''Richie Rich'' was being mentioned. ''Ferris Bueller'' is an obvious mention: it is the role that launched Ben Stein's film career. (I will address how this is a fairly objective statement in a moment.) But there is nothing special about ''Richie Rich''; why not note Stein's roles in, say, ''The Mask'' or ''The Wonder Years'' instead? We could just note all of Stein's roles, but if we do that, this article just becomes a recapitulation of the IMDb filmography. So I decided to just cut the whole clause out and revert 63.134.129.166's changes.

Unfortunately, [[User:The stuart|The stuart]] came along and pushed ''Richie Rich'' back in. Worse, he removed the statement about Stein being famous for ''Ferris Bueller''. Thus, I come here to justify the change.

Now let's look at my claim that Ben Stein is famous for ''Ferris Bueller''. Consider:
* Ben Stein's [http://www.benstein.com/bio.html own website] refers to the scene in which Stein utters the quote "Bueller? ... Bueller?" as being ranked one of the fifty most memorable scenes in American movies.
* Try [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=%22bueller%3F+bueller%3F%22+ben+stein&btnG=Search google]: a search on ''"bueller? bueller?" ben stein'' will get you a list of web sites with comments such as:
** Stein achieved his cinematic milestone with a single word droned over and over: "Bueller ... Bueller ... Bueller."
** I got recognized often and was occasionally asked for an autograph. And every once in a while, someone standing next to me at a urinal would lean over in my direction and bark, "Bueller? Bueller?"
** His droning roll call -- "Bueller?…Bueller?...Bueller?…" -- is now a rhetorical catch phrase for asking a question that no one will answer.
** "Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?" More than 350 Ben Stein fans heard this immortalized line in person on Thursday, Oct. 28, as the Renaissance man who coined the phrase visited UM-St. Louis for the evening.
* By the way, just for comparison with ''Richie Rich'', let's look at google hits again: [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=%22ben+stein%22+%22richie+rich%22&btnG=Search "ben stein" "richie rich"] gets you 117 hits compared to 889 hits for [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=%22ben+stein%22+%22ferris+bueller%27s+day+off%22&btnG=Search "ben stein" "ferris bueller's day off"] &mdash; and the longer title for ''Ferris Bueller'' should actually serve to depress its number of hits.

&mdash; [[User:DLJessup|DLJessup]] 06:18, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)

== Order of article? ==

Shouldn't the "Writing" section be placed before the "Work" section, to keep the article's chronological perspective? He worked for Nixon ''before'' starring in ''Ferris Bueller'', after all. [[User:Ekedolphin|ekedolphin]] 08:43, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

== Is this worth noting? ==

I believe that Ben Stein suffers from bipolar disorder, but I'm not sure if it really matters. Opinions? --[[User:Marco Passarani|Marco Passarani]] 17:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

: If it's true and you can source it, I think it's noteworthy. — [[User:DLJessup|DLJessup]] 18:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

:: Well, I could have sworn that I read that he had it...but can't find a source. And my memory has been known to be entirely inaccurate. My mistake! --[[User:Marco Passarani|Marco Passarani]] 21:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

::: I believe you might have been think of Ben Stiller --[[User:Wildcatgrad|Wildcatgrad]] ([[User talk:Wildcatgrad|talk]]) 20:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Another "Is it worth noting?": Ben Stein spoke to young republicans at something like the young republicans convention a few years ago. Sorry to have so few details, but it did happen. He made plenty of knee-jerk comments to the effect that liberals are all unhappy whiners, whereas conservatives are confident, successful and content citizens, then cited some Hollywood liberals, not as counterexamples, but as hypocritical abominations. If anyone has more information on this ignominious speech might be worth noting. [[User:MotherFunctor|MotherFunctor]] 04:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
:I wish I had been there because I'm sure it was a great speech! As far as I'm concerned it is worth noting. We just need a verifiable source for it. [[User:Lawyer2b|Lawyer2b]] 06:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
::Ha! okay, well I'll try to track it down. [[User:MotherFunctor|MotherFunctor]] 02:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

::Not sure if [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1459141/posts this] is the speech you are referring to; it's not the speech itself, just a write up about it. Hardly seems like a "great" speech, just some more hysteria and partisan propaganda that is the hall mark of every major political party in the USA. However, it must make Mark Foley a bit happier to know there are people out there who see conservatives as 'confident, successful and content citizens.'

== Fiction vs. Non-fiction ==

Can someone please specify which titles Stein authored are fiction and which are non-fiction? I could probably guess, but best if someone else could lay it out for us. Thanks.

== Opening Paragraph ==
''Benjamin Jeremy Stein (born November 25, 1944, in Washington, D.C.) is a fervently conservative (with strong libertarian economic impulses) pro-life former White House speechwriter (for the late Republican President Richard Nixon); he is/was also an attorney, (former) game show host, actor, commercial personality, screenwriter, law professor, economist, author, and columnist. He is the son of noted economist and writer Herbert Stein, and his wife, Mildred. Ben Stein has a sister, Rachel, a writer.''

Wow...a little cumbersome, don't you think? &mdash; [[User:Ilyanep|<span style="color:gray;">Ilγαηερ</span>]] [[User talk:Ilyanep|<span style="color: #333333;">(Tαlκ)</span>]] 18:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

== Reorganization ==

In my reorganization of the article, I've removed:

:His efforts at [[film]] and [[television]] screenwriting have largely been for naught, aside from paying him an excellent wage for many years, though he ...

By "for naught" did the editor mean that the writing was not admired by critics? It's quite a mysterious statement. [[User:Joshuardavis|Joshuardavis]] 02:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

==Drug Addictions?==

Nowhere is it mentioned in the article that from 1966-1988 Mr. Stein was addicted to drugs, specifically dilaudin, demerol, marijuana, dexamil, and cocaine. One of his books does focus on this addiction. I think this should be noted, either as a description of his book "The Gift of Peace" or as a separate section about his life. For all his successes and accomplishments, it shows he's still a mortal figure. --[[User:Lovelinelistener|Lovelinelistener]] 01:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this should be added. A direct citation of Ben Stein talking about his addictions is on Loveline, 10-07-2003 (''Loveline''. Adam Carolla, Drew Pinskey, Prod. Ann Wilkins. KROQ-FM, Los Angeles. 7 Oct. 2003). "I used to be a really, really heavy drug-user, and I changed largely from going to twelve-step meetings." He then goes on to admit, as Lovelinelistener already mentioned, to using dilaudid, Demerol, marijuana, cocaine, and several other pill-based drugs. It's an interesting aspect of his life that never seems to get mentioned, and to many people may seem to clash with his personality and nature. As such, it's an important, well-documented part of his life that should be added to his article.
--[[User:Phlag|Phlag]] December 12, 2007 <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 02:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Newfoundland?==
I'm suspicious of the references to Stein teaching in Newfoundland. They are not sourced. No offense intended to Newfies, but it seems like an odd place for a California resident to accept a teaching position. [[User:Patke@sluh.org|Patke@sluh.org]] 21:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

== Ear surgery ==

I removed the following uncited section from the article. If it can be sourced, it could be worked back in, although hopefully in a less prominent way.--[[User:Srleffler|Srleffler]] 04:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

<blockquote>A very little known fact about Ben Stein is that he had a surgery in his early years to reduce the outward appearance of his ears.{{Fact|date=April 2007}} Ben Stein adminitingly speaks about the experience, and also defends it saying that there is nothing wrong with fixing an imperfection. He goes on to say that he once had a Jewish friend who asked him if he should have his nose reduced and Ben advised against it, as it would be hiding a heritage. Stein says that one should not hide traits or features relevant to their race, but outward portruding ears is not one of them and should be corrected.</blockquote>

== Where he currently lives ==

I go to school in DC, and have seen him around the Watergate and in the Georgetown area 3 or 4 times over the past year. Does he live there also? Also, the entire paragraph is uncited, which is a no-no. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Kstingily|Kstingily]] ([[User talk:Kstingily|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kstingily|contribs]]) 00:46, August 2, 2007 </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

Since when is a 1573 out of 1600 perfect? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.234.19.177|96.234.19.177]] ([[User talk:96.234.19.177|talk]]) 20:41, August 7, 2007</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP -->

== "Expelled" movie ==

I took out the last sentence claiming that the company that made the film lied about what film they were making. The link listed provides no evidence of that, and the source itself isn't in any manner objective on the subject matter. The other part I removed read "Although not yet released, the movie has been criticized for misrepresentation of science". The link to back this up is from someone who hasn't seen the film and has no idea what's in the film. The linked post makes it clear that the writer hasn't seen the film and doesn't know the content. An encyclopedia shouldn't include claims of criticism from those who admit to having no knowledge of the content of the film. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]){{#if:23:49, August 23, 2007 (UTC)|&#32;23:49, August 23, 2007 (UTC)}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->7

:I reverted the part about the producers misrepresenting themselves to PZ Myers. The link provided substantiates this allegation quite well. The letter from Mark Mathis clearly mentions "Crossroads", while saying nothing about "Expelled"; Mathis appears as Assistant Producer on the poster for "Expelled"; and the promo for "Expelled" claims that the movie "confronts" Myers, Dawkins and others. I agree that statements as to whether the movie itself misrepresents either Myers or Science should await its actual release. --[[User:Stagyar|Stagyar]] 09:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

:The link provided, in no way, substaniates the claim that the
producers acted in a dishonest manner. PZ claims that, because
the film had a differen't title when he was interviewed that he
was lied to. Nearly ALL films go through title changes from
conception to finished product.

You changed the text to read that the film misrepresents. 1
VERY harsh critic (who has a clear vendetta against anyone

who proposes study into the subject) should not be given
undue weight. At best, you can claim that ONE single person
claimed the producers were dishonest with him.: <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 17:55, August 27, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I would argue that PZ Myers does not have "a clear vendetta against anyone who proposes study into the subject", but rather against those who misrepresent this subject as having been rigorously proven, studied, or even defined. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 18:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

From looking at the trailer and reading through the Expelled main website, it is inaccurate to state that this documentary is "arguing in favor of Intelligent Design". Rather, it seems to be an investigation on how the scientific community shows disdain towards scientists who propose Intelligent Design. I have tried to edit the synopsis of the movie to reflect this but it keeps being changed back. Why? It almost seems like the editors are doing the very thing the movie is trying to expose. Maybe someone can explain to me what is really going on here?

:Your edits were in gross violation of [[WP:NPOV]]. I don't particularly agree with the current characterisation of the movie, but yours were far worse. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 16:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

What about the current edit? I believe it is an accurate unbiased representantion of what the movie is about. What do you think? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.191.13.247|209.191.13.247]] ([[User talk:209.191.13.247|talk]]) 16:28, August 27, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I was the one who made the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ben_Stein&diff=153977075&oldid=153976414 "current edit" at the time you posted your comment], so of course I "believe it is an accurate unbiased representantion[sic] of what the movie is about." If you are talking about [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ben_Stein&diff=prev&oldid=153976414 this edit] then, no, I don't "believe it is an accurate unbiased representantion[sic] of what the movie is about." [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 16:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yours is the better edit. I would onlly make one slight modification, instead of stating "discriminated against in universities", it would be more accurate to put "discriminated against by the scientific community". <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] ([[User talk:Itsadiel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Itsadiel|contribs]]) 20:16, August 27, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I'm going to go ahead and make the previously suggested edit. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] ([[User talk:Itsadiel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Itsadiel|contribs]]) 20:19, August 27, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

The [http://www.premisemedia.com/EXPELLED-PressRelease_08-22-07.pdf press release] makes a number of distortions of the controversies ''Expelled'' is covering, and one outright falsehood. The paper that Sternberg published was '''not''' a "research paper" but a review paper, by a Creationist Philosopher of Science/Theologian with <s>no scientific credentials</s> no research degree in science, and no research background in the field of palaeontology (the paper's subject was the [[Cambrian Explosion]]). Details of this particular controversy can be found at [[Sternberg peer review controversy‎]]. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 05:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC) Corrected. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 07:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Information on Gonzalez's denial of tenure, which the press release also mentions, can be found at [[Guillermo Gonzalez (astronomer)#Tenure Controversy]]. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 05:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

:This is utter nonsense. Meyer (whom Hrafn, I suspect is referring to) does INDEED have a scientific background. His PhD disertation was on "history of origin of life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences." If that isn't a background in science, then nothing is. That's not a Ph. D in science, but to say he has no scientific credentials is ludicrous. Also, Meyer has degrees in physics in geology and has spent time as a working scientist. Finally, to claim he has no research into the background of pelaeontology is bogus, as he did his Ph. D disertation on the subject. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 07:11, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::<s>I'm pretty sure that Hrafn is talking about Sternberg's baraminology. [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] <sup>[[User_talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]</sup> 05:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)</s> Oh, sorry: i thought you were talking about PZ Myers. Hrafn's right about Meyer. [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] <sup>[[User_talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]</sup> 10:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way- I have once again taken out the inaccuracies in the Expelled section of the article. The link provided is ONE claim by ONE professor who has, over the years, been shown to be a very vulgar critic of the subject. In the link, he refers to the producer as "ass-prod" and provides no evidence to suggest he was lied to. As I said before, he simply says that the film changed names and went through an evolution of sorts on the subject matter. ALL films do that, whether they be documentaries, dramas, whatever. The fact is- Myers is a very hostile critic who has stated his goal is to be as militant as possible in attacking ANYONE or ANYTHING that even looks like it's supporting the idea of intelligent design. The "evidence" just does not fit the standards here at Wikipedia. If someone wants to change the text to mention that ONE ID critic claims he was duped because the film changed names, then go ahead, but the text that the film has been criticized for being dishonest isn't accurate. At best, the film is being criticized by a single individual who CLAIMS the producer wasn't totally honest. There is absolutely no reason to distort Stein's article with propaganda like this.

::As I explicitly stated, Meyer is a ''Philosopher of Science'', '''not''' a research scientist. He ''did not'' do his PhD in palaeontology , his thesis was entitled "Of clues and causes : a methodological interpretation of origin of life studies." According to Google Scholar, it is ''only'' cited by Meyer, Dembski & other creationists, ''not'' by any palaeontologists. He worked as a geophysicist for an oil company, ''not'' as a research scientist. As I stated before, he has 'no ''research'' background in the field of palaeontology. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 07:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

No, what you actually said was that he has no scientific credentials. He has undergraduate degrees in 2 fields of science, which means your assertion was inaccurate. His thesis was in the field of paleaontology. You said that he has no research background in the field. If a Ph. D thesis doesn't qualify as research, then what, in your view, does? The fact remains- he did research, in the general sense of the word, in the field, so he has knowledge of the subject matter. He also has scientific credentials to bolster that thesis research.

:No. Only in one field of science, geology. He does not have a degree in physics. I misspoke earlier when I said he has ''no'' scientific credentials, but he has no advanced degree in any science. His thesis was in the field of Philosophy of Science, ''not'' palaeontology. He has no "research background" in the latter field. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 07:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

:According to his bio (if you search his name via google, it's the first entry) at the DI website, he has "degrees" (plural) in geology and physics.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&isFellow=true&id=11 <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 08:37, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

From my reading of the NPOV section just now, the text I took out doesn't meet the criteria. It wasn't stated as an opinion by one person (Myers), it was stated as a 'fact' that the producer's were dishonest. Like I said- if someone wants to note that one ID-critic claims A, B, and C, then fine. But, even then, it doesn't look like his post is supported by anything but the fact that the film changed names and slightly went through a change in overall content. That is what every production company does to nearly every film. That doesn't equal, 'I was lied to'. It certainly isn't supported to the point where it should be included in the article. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 07:30, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Except that Myers didn't merely offer an "opinion", he presented evidence that the dishonesty was a factual matter:
{{quotation| Hello Mr. Myers,
<p>
My name is Mark Mathis. I am a Producer for Rampant Films. We are currently in production of the documentary film, "Crossroads: The Intersection of Science and Religion."
<p>
At your convenience I would like to discuss our project with you and to see if we might be able to schedule an interview with you for the film. The interview would take no more than 90 minutes total, including set up and break down of our equipment.
<p>
We are interested in asking you a number of questions about the disconnect/controversy that exists in America between Evolution, Creationism and the Intelligent Design movement.
<p>
Please let me know what time would be convenient for me to reach you at your office. Also, could you please let me know if you charge a fee for interviews and if so, what that fee would be for 90 minutes of your time.
<p>
I look forward to speaking with you soon.
<p>
Sincerely,
<p>
Mark Mathis
Rampant Films<br>
4414 Woodman Ave. #203<br>
Sherman Oaks, CA 91423<br>
www.rampantfilms.com}}
:Myers also exhibited Rampant Films' website's description of this proposed film. Neither the description come close to matching that of ''Expelled''. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 07:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There's no evidence there to suggest dishonesty. As I have said about ten times so far, nearly ALL movies go through numerous title changes and content changes. The letter here clearly states:

"We are interested in asking you a number of questions about the disconnect/controversy that exists in America between Evolution, Creationism and the Intelligent Design movement."

The title change is evidence of nothing other than the producers thought the new title would be a better title and might sell to the public better. The content change doesn't even seem that different. He clearly states it concerns the controversy over evolution, creationism, ID, and religion. From watching the trailer, it seems that's precisely what the film is about, the controversy and those involved in it. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 07:53, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:The ''content'' has ''diametrically'' changed from an apparently neutral film about "The Intersection of Science and Religion" to a blatantly partisan film bashing the scientific community. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 08:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

First off, no one has seen the film, so we can't say what the content is exactly. The Crossroads synopsis clearly says that it's a film that discusses the controversy, and that millions of people worldwide take a literal view of religious stories. Again, films often change contents. According to the film's site, it's been in production for two years. Someone came along and decided to change some of the content. That happens everyday for many reasons, and it doesn't equal dishonesty or false pretenses. Myers was asked to discuss the controversy, and from his post he seems to have done that. His main complaint in the post seems to be that he thinks the film is a pro-creationist movie, and he wants no part of any such thing. Also, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest the film is in any manner "partisan" or that it spends any time "bashing the scientific community." To discuss professors and scientists who the producers think were silenced for discussing ID in public doesn't equate with any sort of bashing of the scientific community, especially considering that all scientists would be included in the "scientific community," including those interviewed in the film (Behe, Crocker, Sternberg, etc). <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 08:12, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:From the press release, we get a ''very'' strong impression of what the movie is about. It is a credulous repetition of the [[Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns|Discovery Institute intelligent design campaign]] theme presenting (faux-)persecution of ID proponents. Myers is perfectly correct in "think[ing] the film is a pro-creationist movie" and ''did not say or imply'' that "he wants no part of any such thing." [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 08:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"Faux-persecution of ID proponents"?? I'd say that comment alone is enough to suggest you probably shouldn't be editing this particular article, as it seems nothing that results from it will be anywhere near NPOV. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benjamindankatz|Benjamindankatz]] ([[User talk:Benjamindankatz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benjamindankatz|contribs]]) 08:33, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:'''Faux-persecution'''. As far as I know, not one of these purported "persecutions" have ever been proven by any competent authority (court, congressional hearing or government agency that actually had jurisdiction). Additionally, the only purported "persecution" I know of to ever get reversed was that of [[Francis J. Beckwith]], who is not a scientist by any stretch, and whose initial denial of tenure is generally thought to have had more to do with internal politics of [[Baylor University]] than with any wider conflict between ID & science. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 03:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If this film is correct (that the scientific community looks down on with disdain and attempts to discredit anything to do with ID) then I expect to see this documentary itself be slandered and looked upon with contempt by the scientific community. Oh wait, in this very discussion we are already seeing that happen! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] ([[User talk:Itsadiel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Itsadiel|contribs]]) 13:57, August 28, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:It could likewise be said that "If this film is ''in''correct (that the scientific community ''is doing nothing illegitimate against ID'') then I expect to see this documentary itself be ''ripped to shreds for misrepresenting the science community'' and looked upon with contempt by the scientific community." [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 03:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and could Benjamindankatz & Itsadiel '''please sign their contributions!''' [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 03:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

::Okay, I have to ask this: Is this article really the place to talk about the different viewpoints on the movie? Can't we just limit ourselves to saying he's in the movie, then describe the movie as having a "Pro-ID viewpoint" or something? We can discuss the controversies on the movie in its own article, once that's created. --[[User:Infophile|Infophile]] <sup>[[User_talk:Infophile|(Talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Infophile|(Contribs)]]</sup> 04:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

:: I'm with Infophile here... why is this the place for this discussion? Three times as much space if given in criticism of the movie as is given in explanation of what the movie is. If anything, the movie should have it's own page with a "Criticisms" section. [[User:BeboGuitar|BeboGuitar]] 22:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


PZ "claims" that he was interviewd under false pretenses. The supposed "evidence" is open to interpretation, I personally believe that the email was pretty straightforward when it said that the film would be about the disconnect/controversey between Darwinianism/ID/and what God's Word says. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] ([[User talk:Itsadiel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Itsadiel|contribs]]) 19:07, August 29, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:"Claim" is a [[WP:WTA]]. ''Expelled'' is '''not''' about "the disconnect/controversey between Darwinianism/ID/and what God's Word says", it is about publicising the Discovery Institutes' faux-persecution media campaign. And incidentally, the disconnect isn't with "what God's Word" says, it is with what a ''narrow, sectarian'' bunch say that "God's Word says". [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 03:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Very well. Let's just neutrally quote what Myers says, without comment. [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] <sup>[[User_talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]</sup> 09:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

As for the subject of the movie - I think we have to use "claim", because the assertion is defamatory, and we cannot state it as fact. "Claim" is needed to balance out words like "documentary" and "discriminate". [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] <sup>[[User_talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]</sup> 09:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


Actually no, it is exactly what God's Word says. Check it out, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." As far as whether the Christian way is narrow, I'll give you that. But just know that this "narrowness" wasnt something we made up, it was Jesus Himself who said it! He said, "Enter by the narrow gate". How narrow? But through one Person -> Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me." [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] 16:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

:Actually, no. Christianity has been interpreting parts of Genesis non-literally at least since the time of [[St Augustine]], and Judaism has been doing likewise for a comparative length of time. Even most fundamentalists interpret at least some bits of the Bible non-literally (e.g. ignoring the [[geocentricism]] implicit in a literal reading of Joshua -- a literal interpretation which [[Martin Luther]] strenuously defended). [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 17:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Wait. So you are saying that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" does not mean that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth? Yowza!

:It might, it might not. Have you read this document in its Ancient Hebrew? Have you even read a commentary on its translation? If not, you probably cannot say with any certainty if, taken in isolation, this single sentence means what you thought it did. Was it even a "sentence" back in the original Hebrew? My impression is that there was little punctuation back then, so it probably wasn't. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 18:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

::Not sure it was written in Ancient Hebrew. It could have been Sumerian, Egyptian, or even Ancient Hebrew. But it was all lost in the great flood. And some dinosaurs on the ark ate the paper, got gastritis and died. Hence fossils. I've got it all figured out. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

If you say so. I mean, I'm no expert or anything but I think the Bible is pretty clear about this. For example, it also says: "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:16-17 [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] 21:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

:No, you're not an expert: in either theology, ancient languages (and thus of the difficulties of translation thereof), anthropology (and thus the limitations of ancient cultures' worldviews, the differences to modern worldviews, and how this might affect interpreting statements made) or anything else relevent. The [[Epistle to the Colossians]] does not say what you quoted, it said something in [[Koine Greek]] (the original of which is long since lost). What you are quoting is a ''single translation'' of a (quite possibly imperfect) copy (quite possibly a copy of a copy...) of this epistle. But by all means continue lecturing me on "God's Word". I always like to be lectured by people who know less about their own religious tradition than I do. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 03:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

How does your expertise interpret Luke 13:3? "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." [[User:Itsadiel|Itsadiel]] 04:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:That it is a phrase most probably spoken in [[Aramaic]], passed down as an oral tradition for a number of years before being translated and written down in Koine Greek (the original written translation of which is likewise long since lost). That the phrase is from one of the [[Synoptic Gospels]], raising the [[synoptic problem]] of which of these gospels is the original, and whether the additional material contained in the other two come from legitimate parallel traditions or were later interpolations (such interpolations having been documented in the New Testament, the most famous being the [[Comma Johanneum]], the main basis for the central Christian doctrine of the [[Trinity]]). [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 04:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:I would also note that the act of translation tends to paper over and homogenise (but not always entirely) many shifts and schisms in the Old Testament that can more clearly be seen in the original Hebrew, e.g. from [[El (god)|El]] to [[Yahweh]] and from [[polytheism]] to [[monotheism]], and the revisions that these shifts entailed. What you view as a single monolithic whole is in fact a patchwork of progressive, occasionally conflicting, viewpoints. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 04:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect Hrafn42, where is the interpretation of Luke 13:3? He didn't ask you what language the original phrase was spoken in. Nor did he ask, where is the phrase from? Nor, what is the main basis for the central Christian doctrine of the Trinity? Even if the original version of the verse was lost as you suggest, he asked you to interpret Luke 13:3. [[User:New99|New99]] 13:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)new99

:My "interpretation" is that the sentence that Itsadiel provided, even if it is original and not an later interpolation, is a translation of a game of [[chinese whispers]] (aka 'telephone') of a translation of another game of chinese whispers. The meaning of final version is thus unlikely to have more than a passing resemblance to the meaning of the original, so any further "interpretation" would be futile. It is entirely possible that the original said something like "but I tell you, if you do not perish, then repent" or any of dozens of other ambiguous phrases, that could have become more definitive and more theologically charged as they were passed on. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 14:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

::Hrafn, your patience is incredible. I'll make your life much easier. The bible is a bunch of misinterpreted bullshit. And in 32CE, nothing happened in Jerusalem, except maybe some contentious rabbi was executed by a bunch of cranky Romans. See how simple I make it. Hrafn, you'd feel so much better about the world if you just ignored the Creationist, revert their POV, and help out on all of the various evolution articles that these christians don't even bother touching. :) [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Actually, even the "executed by a bunch of cranky Romans" bit is largely discredited -- the Jewish authorities at the time had a strong policy of not handing anybody over to the Romans for judgement. Plus, there is no contemporary record of the Romans having done any such thing. And it doesn't take "patience" nor makes me feel worse about the world to do this. I ''enjoy'' ferreting out the internal contradictions in such extrinsic dogmatic beliefs. The fact that I am engaging an essentially unarmed opponent in this instance does however make it feel a tad ''too'' easy. [[User:Hrafn42|Hrafn42]] 07:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

::::There hrafn goes with those pesky facts again: they really ruin a good story. :) [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::Hrafn is just too fact oriented. Creationists don't listen to facts? BTW Hrafn, I know that Jesus did not exist in any way shape or form, but I hate to think that millions of my brethren died because of a false religion. I've got to believe that the Inquisition, pogroms, and other hate-filled murders of my people at least were the result of this false messiah actually being alive? OK, probably not. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Stop arguing over the existance of God, religion's ideas, etc., this is a Ben Stein article, and the section being discussed is the movie "Expelled." Also, the movie is satire in many areas, so I don't see what people are aruging about in terms of the interviews being misused and such. I'm completely neutral to this, so if you wish, I can make the appropriate edits. I wont make them unless if anyone objects. <span style="color:red;background:black;border-style: single">¤[[User:IronCrow|IrønCrøw]]¤</span> <small>([[User talk:IronCrow|Speak to Me]])</small> 00:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

== Removal of "Expelled" controversy ==

I have removed the part of the section which detailed the claims of misconduct levelled against the producers of this movie in response to {{OTRS ticket|1130725|2007101010001206}}. This was because the criticisms did not relate to Ben Stein's role as the host of the movie, and instead appeared to be allegations levelled against the movie's executive producer. The movie now has its own article, and that article outlines the criticisms in substantial detail. I guess Ben Stein's article could make passing mention of the fact that the movie has been criticised, but it should not make the leap of suggesting that Ben Stein is the target of any of this criticism. - [[User:Mark|Mark]] 02:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:Not sure what went on here previously but ''Expelled'' has hit the theaters and Ben Stein is now the target of scathing reviews by mainstream movie critics and much of the scientific community. He's being called a "liar" and "propagandist" just to name a few. You can read 32 reviews at [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/expelled_no_intelligence_allowed/ Rotten Tomatoes]. On an upbeat note 3 of the 32 review there are positive. Also the [[National Center For Science Education]] has devoted an entire website to debunking the ideas (every single claim) Ben Stein is promoting in the movie. See more at [http://www.expelledexposed.com/ expelledexposed.com]. Ben Stein is now very much a magnet for criticism. The production company and distributor are also being sued by Yoko Ono for using the Lennon song ''Imagine'' without permission and also for how they are using the song in the film (think images of Joseph Stalin and also the Red Chinese Army marching as John Lennon sings "and no religion too..."). Stein was not named in the lawsuit though. I'm not sure what belongs in the article but I thought I'd update the talk page on how this thing is unfolding for Stein. [[User:Angry Christian|Angry Christian]] ([[User talk:Angry Christian|talk]]) 23:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== WikiProject class rating==
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. [[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 15:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

== New section: Stein's Creationism ==

I've added a new section that others will want to edit, describing his beliefs on science and religion. Based on his work for the "Expelled" documentary and various columns that as near as I can tell are from "Ben Stein's Diary" in the American Spectator, Stein advocates "Intelligent Design" as a true belief, advocates teaching alternatives to evolution in schools as science, and believes that evolution is responsible for Nazism and other ills. A stray comment of his about evolution having supposedly taken place "in record time" suggests that he advocates [[young-Earth creationism]], but that's too little to go on. -[[User:Kris Schnee|Kris Schnee]] ([[User talk:Kris Schnee|talk]]) 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite understand the recent change changing "theory of evolution" to "theory of evolution by natural selection." Is this hair-splitting, or is there some new theory of evolution out there?
-[[User:Kris Schnee|Kris Schnee]] ([[User talk:Kris Schnee|talk]]) 05:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the meaning of footnote 18:
'National Science Teachers Association, a professional association of 55,000 science teachers and administrators in a 2005 press release: "We stand with the nation's leading scientific organizations and scientists, including Dr. John Marburger, the president's top science advisor, in stating that intelligent design is not science. ...It is simply not fair to present pseudoscience to students in the science classroom." This echoes the views that were widely taught in communist countries and that the US later adopted.'

What are these views widely taught in communist countries later adopted in the US? Which communist countries? And what is the relevance to either the footnote or the body text? There is a link that is dead; if it explained anything, perhaps it can be replaced. But in any case an explanation of the relevance of views taught in communist countries to the evaluation of Intelligent Design as a pseudo-science seems needed. [[User:Jdorchen|Jdorchen]] ([[User talk:Jdorchen|talk]]) 17:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've grown up in a communist country, and evolution was taught. Along with Chemistry, Physics, Matematics. Because, you know, not everybody treats science as politics. (The US is pretty curious phenomenon in the developed world.) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/129.171.150.137|129.171.150.137]] ([[User talk:129.171.150.137|talk]]) 18:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:The link seems to be working now, and unsurprisingly it says nothing about communist countries. I will edit accordingly. --[[User:Robert Stevens|Robert Stevens]] ([[User talk:Robert Stevens|talk]]) 14:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
::...Ah, spotted it. Vandalism by anonymous user 70.128.83.15: [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Ben_Stein&diff=202198746&oldid=202046541]. --[[User:Robert Stevens|Robert Stevens]] ([[User talk:Robert Stevens|talk]]) 14:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

== Using Pakistan atrocities to damn Nixon ==

Nixon had enough warts of his own, most would agree, without piling on the atrocities of nations around the world. After all, is the US the world's police force? Didn't this attitude compound Vietnam? Saying, "This is in spite of the fact that Nixon had willfully ignored the atrocities of the Pakistan Army in Bangladesh in 1971" is over the top. Whoever added this needs to visit the sites of each president - Clinton included - so as to add the "guilt" of each genocide that he "ignored." And that is a vague term - ignored. Denouncing genocide - is that enough, or still ignoring? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.36.134.220|75.36.134.220]] ([[User talk:75.36.134.220|talk]]) 04:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Yes, the US is the world's police force. It's not a glamorous job but somebody has to do it, and it's more efficient if one country does it for everyone. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.122.63.142|64.122.63.142]] ([[User talk:64.122.63.142|talk]]) 18:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Sexual Vandalism==
Several places in this article have had vandalism added.I just wanted to bring this to attention so that someone with more skill than I can combat it. Thanks!
"bow before his image and lick his b***S like Stein did!"
"Stein was incidently in the stall next to Craig, licking someone's b****s! [8]

== Views on evolution ==

In reference to the phrase <i>"Ironically, PZ Myers, a scientist interviewed in Expelled and acknowledged in the film's credits was rejected from a pre-screening of the film on March 20th, 2008, and not allowed to view the movie."</i> This is patently unfair because it has nothing to do with any personal action Ben Stein himself took. From what I read from the referenced article, this decision was made by one of the producers in charge of pre-screening at that location--not Ben Stein. Furthermore, this unfortunate incident has nothing to do with Ben Stein's <u>Views on evolution</u> and its appearance in this section suggests an attempt to misdirect the readers from what is relevant in order to sully a new political enemy to a lot of people right now. This quote belongs inside of the 'Criticism' section of the Expelled movie article, but not here. [[User:DavidPesta|DavidPesta]] ([[User talk:DavidPesta|talk]]) 03:42, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
=="views on evolution" section title==
Maybe I am missing something here but it seems like the issue is Ben's advocacy of intelligent design/creationism and his belief that science is some Nazi lovin' enterprise that hates god is what is notable, and not his views on evolution. Probably most all celebrities (just like us commoners) have views on evolution that are by themselves not noteworthy at all. Ben has just hitched his ride to the intelligent design movement, publicly claims they have more projects in the works, and he has possibly make the very worst film of the 21st century, yet the article mentions his "views on evolution". Seems like we're missing the point, or at least what is truly noteworthy. Opinions? [[User:Angry Christian|Angry Christian]] ([[User talk:Angry Christian|talk]]) 18:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


:Do you have an issue with the content of the section, or just the title? I have been working on the NPOV issues that come up there, haven't even thought about the title of it. [[User:Aunt Entropy|Aunt Entropy]] ([[User talk:Aunt Entropy|talk]]) 05:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

::The title, it seems too narrow to me that it misses the point. Content looks good. Thanks for asking me to clarify. [[User:Angry Christian|Angry Christian]] ([[User talk:Angry Christian|talk]]) 18:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

:::True, Stein has issues with science beyond evolution. Well, how about your synopsis for a title: "Advocacy of ID/Creationism"? And before anyone complains about the "c" word, Stein does use the word "creator" when referring to his beliefs.[[User:Aunt Entropy|Aunt Entropy]] ([[User talk:Aunt Entropy|talk]]) 18:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

::::I would argue that 'Views on Science' would be a more appropriate title. He was recently quoted in an interview on TBN saying that science (IE materialism) leads you to killing people, in general. It's in this interview here - http://www.tbn.org/watch/files/index.php?file=2008_4_21_300k.wmv&show=92 - I figured I'd just mention it here, don't care to edit it myself as I wouldn't really know how to enter my sources properly. I'll leave it to all the regular editors.
::::The quote is, "In my opinion, this is just my opinion, that's where science leads you. Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place. Science leads you to killing people." [[User:Yeahchris|Yeahchris]] ([[User talk:Yeahchris|talk]]) 06:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

::::: Agreed. Seeing as this has gone a week without dissent, I'm going to [[WP:BB|be bold]] and change it. —&nbsp;<em>[[User:NRen2k5|NRen2k5]]</em><sup>([[User_talk:NRen2k5|TALK]])</sup>, 14:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

==The lead seems backwards==

New change to the lead seems to emphasize what Stein's career was thirty years ago, and not what he's known for today, as an actor. Seriously, when was the last time he practiced law?[[User:Aunt Entropy|Aunt Entropy]] ([[User talk:Aunt Entropy|talk]]) 18:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
:I'm with you and if you read all the reviews of his latest movie what he's mostly known for is his role in the Ferris Beuller movie (still). He's also an author but first and foremost he's an actor (and some people think he's funny and the call him a "comedian"). [[User:Angry Christian|Angry Christian]] ([[User talk:Angry Christian|talk]]) 18:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Why does the lead call him an economist? He does not have any graduate training in economics, and has never worked as an economist. Having an economist for a father, and taking an interest in economic issues does not make him an economist. [[Special:Contributions/61.18.170.148|61.18.170.148]] ([[User talk:61.18.170.148|talk]]) 15:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:I believe he has a column or something where he discusses finance. He is also sometimes interviewed on financial programs. Not sure if that makes him an economist. My limited knowledge of Ben Stein is he's supposed to be funny and is currently advocating intelligent design creationism while attacking mainstream science. [[User:Angry Christian|Angry Christian]] ([[User talk:Angry Christian|talk]]) 17:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I have made some changes to the lead to accomodate his career change mentioned by Angry Christian. How is it now? [[User:Chimeric Glider|Chimeric Glider]] ([[User talk:Chimeric Glider|talk]]) 21:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::Nice improvements sir. I don't really know enough about the guy to say what he's best known as. To *me* he has always been Win Stein's Money (well at least when Jimmy Kimmel was there) and I knew he was a former WH speech writer. So I might not be the best person to ask. [[User:Angry Christian|Angry Christian]] ([[User talk:Angry Christian|talk]]) 21:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

== class placment at Yale ==

I watched a few minutes of the glenn beck show.
I was suprised to hear Ben Stein say that he was not valedictorian because of good grades but because of popularity.
I wish to discusss how to make that apparent in the article
[[User:Christopher ohio|Christopher ohio]] ([[User talk:Christopher ohio|talk]]) 19:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC) I approve of this message 19:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

==Support for Nader Presidential Candidacy, 2008==
Does anyone have information to substantiate the claim that he supports Ralph Nader for president in 2008, as mentioned on the [[Ralpha Nader]] article? Thanks! --[[Special:Contributions/24.211.242.80|24.211.242.80]] ([[User talk:24.211.242.80|talk]]) 02:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

: There is a [http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&tID=5&src=atom&atom=recent_q_and_a.xml&products_id=280479-1 C-Span Q&A] where he indicated his intention to vote for Nader. I am not sure that this is necessarily an official endorsement though. --[[User:Wildcatgrad|Wildcatgrad]] ([[User talk:Wildcatgrad|talk]]) 20:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


== Toonstruck ==
==BIAS in the BIASED article is so obviously visible==


He starred in the PC Computer Game Toonstruck with Christopher Llyod, given that his filmography is listed, shouldn't the games he's been in also be listed? [[Special:Contributions/63.224.76.66|63.224.76.66]] ([[User talk:63.224.76.66|talk]]) 21:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
If not for Ferris B, Stein would not have ever been anything. He'd be a loser. Ferris B put him on the map, then Win Ben Stein's Money gave him more noteriety. His financial "theories" are ridiculous, his speeches are just as idiotic. Yet the photo you use in the article has NOTHING to do with his noteriety. You use the one where he's pretending to be an economist or the one where he's boring poor Miami U students to death. You're trying to package Ben as if he's somehow intelligent or even respectable. Why not stop the 1984 whitewashing and use a phot from Ferris B for or even Win Ben's stupid money? Because Ben's pals are writing this article and trying to use it to change the way he's viewed. His ONLY noteriety has to do with Ferris and WBSM. Ben Stein is a villgae idiot yet you use photos in the article that make him look like he's known as an intellectual. How dishonest is that? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/199.233.178.253|199.233.178.253]] ([[User talk:199.233.178.253|talk]]) 19:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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Toonstruck

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He starred in the PC Computer Game Toonstruck with Christopher Llyod, given that his filmography is listed, shouldn't the games he's been in also be listed? 63.224.76.66 (talk) 21:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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