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==Transport==
I don't think that wikipedia is the place for train & ferry timetables as they usually change twice a year - surely a link to the ferry operator website would be more accurate and reliable? --[[User:JBellis|JBellis]] 17:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


{{User:MiszaBot/config
: In this degree of specificity, you're right. But it's reasonable to mention that the train connects with the ferry (and I think the bit about calling calmac to have them hold the ferry is rather quaint, and so should be kept, albeit worded rather more encyclopedically). -- [[User:Finlay McWalter|Finlay McWalter]] | [[User talk:Finlay McWalter | Talk]] 22:52, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
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I don't know if it's notable, but I recently purchsed the Flash Gordon 1980 movie, and according to the IMDB, the airstrip sequence near the beginning was shot at Breakish on Skye. [[User:Douglasnicol|Douglasnicol]] 17:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
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== Towns and villages ==
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Included the places already mentioned in the introductory paragraph in the list as well. Otherwise one has a list without the most crucial items. Any harm mentioning Portree or Uig twice? Do not think so. -- [[User:Klaus with K|Klaus with K]] 14:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
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== Westminster representation ==

Wondering whether anyone can confirm the following as a list of the Westminster constituencies Skye has been part of:

* Inverness-shire, 1708 to 1918
* Inverness, 1918 to 1983
* Ross, Cromarty and Skye, 1983 to 1997
* Ross, Skye and Inverness West, 1997 to 2005
* Ross, Skye and Lochaber, 2005 to present

[[User:Laurel Bush|Laurel Bush]] 13:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC).

== Geography ==

It would be good to see this expanded. Skye seems almost permenantly overrun with geology students so I'm sure someone has knowledge out there![[User:Greynolds999|Greynolds999]] 02:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


== Name change ==
As the name is set to be officially changed to Eilean a' Cheò (Isle of Mist) next Thursday[http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/letters.cfm?id=659582007], perhaps a change of name should be considered for this article? [[User:Ninja-lewis|Ninja-lewis]] 01:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
:Perhaps not. The link is to a letter unconnected with the naming of Skye, an unreliable source perhaps showing a certain Scotnat bias ;) ... [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 06:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
::Ah sorry. Correct link should be this[http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=659562007] :) [[User:Ninja-lewis|Ninja-lewis]] 10:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
:That makes more sense. Clearly we should now add ''Eilean a' Cheò'' as an alternative Gaelic name so I've done that. As far as the article is concerned, Skye remains the most common name in English so [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions]] mean that will still be the article name. Seems to be considerable controversy about which Gaelic name should be used, any idea which name is on the signposts? .. [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 12:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
::The BBC1 Scotland news item on this had a mention of the council apparently saying that it's the official name for electoral purposes, and will be the name read out at the count on Thursday, but Skye remains in (official?) use – no doubt further clarifications will be announced. .. [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 18:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

== Norse name ==

''Its English name came via Old Norse ''Skið'' = "sky" (and similar meanings)''

Can anyone vouch for this meaning of Old Norse ''skið''? It's usually translated as a log or plank of wood, which is where we get the word [[ski]]. English ''sky'' is related to ON ''ský''. [[User:Flapdragon|Flapdragon]] 04:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

According to [[W. H. Murray]] (1966) ''The Hebrides'' "To the Norsemen it was Skuyo (with o [[umlaut]]) meaning Isle of Cloud, which is rendered in Gaelic as ''Eilean a' Cheo''." [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]] <small>[[User talk:Ben MacDui|(Talk)]]</small> (Sorry about the poor syntax - my wiki markup is not functioning for some reason).

== Article title and focus ==

The artite is named for a specific island but seems to be more about a group of islands. Perhaps we need an article called [[Skye islands]] with [[Skye]] as a disabig page. [[User:Laurel Bush|Laurel Bush]] 13:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC).

: Nope, I have never before heard the expression ''Skye islands'' — there is one big main island. [[Skye (disambiguation)]] is linked from [[Isle of Skye]] with [[Skye]] a redirect onto it. Fine by me as it is.[[User:Klaus with K|Klaus with K]] 15:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

== Scetis (ancient latin name) ==

While working on the page [[:it:Nitria]], an ancient monastic community established in Egypt in the IV century, I've found out that ''Scetis'' is also the latinized ancient name of [[Wadi El Natrun]]. I think that the redirect [[Scetis]]->[[Isle of Skye]] should be fixed (i.e. disambiguated) --[[User:Fredericks|Fredericks]] ([[User_talk:Fredericks|msg]]) 16:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

PS. Of course I could do so, but now I'm working hard on several new voices on the italian Wikipedia ;) If needed I'll fix the redirect by myself in the future.

== Reference in Topsy Turvy ==

Kevin McKidd's character in Topsy Turvy refers to the slaughter of 57 families on the Isle of Skye by British militia. I didn't see it mentioned in the clearences article and the history of the island section seems pretty sparse to begin with. Anyone care to expand and perhaps answer the question?[[User:68.166.252.214|68.166.252.214]] 03:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

:Skye in the 1880s, when the film is set, saw evictions, riots, and ''send a gunboat'', but not massacres that I ever heard of. I presume this refers to the evictions and the [[Battle of the Braes]] which followed them on [[19 April]] [[1882]], mixed up with the later appearance of marines and a gunboat to arrest three locals. The rioters - well, so-called as it's not clear that the locals started the trouble, many sources say the police did - were fined at Inverness sheriff court. John MacPherson and his two co-accused got a couple of months in jail at the [[Court of Session]]. There's more [http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/~skye/crofting.html here] but absolutely no information at [[Highland Land League]] or [[Highland Clearances]]. [[User:Angusmclellan|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan|(Talk)]] 08:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

== Improvement issues ==

The more I look at this article the more confusing it becomes. It has clearly evolved rather then been planned. Castles, for example, are mentioned in three different places. It may get a little worse before it gets better. Apologies to page watchers for any short-term confusion. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 18:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

==Traverse of Black Cuillin Ridge==
I would have expected to see material on, or at least a reference to, the 24-hour traverse of the Black Cuillin - and to the 'Greater Traverse' and the winter traverse. Where are they hiding :-) ? Bob aka [[User:Linuxlad|Linuxlad]] ([[User talk:Linuxlad|talk]]) 21:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

See [[Cuillin]]. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 18:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::I will add there then .[[User:Linuxlad|Linuxlad]] ([[User talk:Linuxlad|talk]]) 23:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

==Skye==
Page [[Skye]] redirects here. Anyone object if I just move it to [[Skye]]? [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 16:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Not I. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 18:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
:'Tis done. [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 19:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

== Etymology ==

The article currently states categorically that the Gaelic name means Winged Isle, but I thought that this was by no means a settled question.

I've certainly never heard anyone who proposed the winged thing explain away the inconvenience of ''a' Chuan Sgith''....
[[User:Prof Wrong|Prof Wrong]] ([[User talk:Prof Wrong|talk]]) 12:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not at all surprised to hear there is some dispute, but I am not familiar with this suggestion and the Google hits all point to pages in Gaelic. Can you say more? [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 13:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

:I've never been involved in any academic debate on the subject, but several Gaelic speakers I've spoken to (teachers and writers) dismiss it as poetic nonsense and false etymology. I've been told that the native Skye pronunciation of "Sgitheanach" is clearly distinct from how they would pronunciation "Sgiathanach", so the claim is that there really is no link in the common mind. (Although I can't remember whether it was a Skye woman or a Lewis man that said this to me.)

:My reference to a' Chuain Sgith (the Minch) is quite simple: it is unlikely that the Minch would obtain a shorter name than the island if the sea was named after the island: instead it would be ''Cuan Sgitheanach'' -- the Skyish Sea. Cuan Sgith points to a shorter Gaelic original name.

:It makes sense that when they were trying to tart up Gaelic in the "celtic mist" days they would try to dismiss non-Gaelic origins for Scottish placenames, but just because they've captured the public imagination with it doesn't mean we should repeat it, surely?

:[[Special:Contributions/62.30.181.23|62.30.181.23]] ([[User talk:62.30.181.23|talk]]) 17:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

:That last one was me -- I thought I was logged in.

: Anyway, I'm not happy with this sentence in the first paragraph: "It is possible the name may describe the shape of the island's peninsulas that radiate out from a mountainous centre dominated by the Cuillin hills." It is quite possible that this is false etymology. Would you agree that discussion of this should be restricted to the etymology section? It's not a done deal, so hardly first paragraph material.

:I'm a bit surprised by this bit:
:: "Eilean Sgitheanach, (sometimes Eilean Sgiathanach) is the modern Gaelic name and means "winged isle".[6]
:Refs section:
::"[6] ''Eilean Sgiathanach does mean "winged isle". Eilean Sgitheanach is the traditional spelling and may be a corruption of the Norse with the relationship between the two being a false etymology."

:That's not a reference -- it's an opinion. Is there any serious study that makes a clear link, rather than deferring to poetry and heresay?

:I'd really be much happier if it was made clear that the "winged isle" stuff was a suggestion (conjecture, even) and not presented as '''the''' meaning of the name.

:[[User:Prof Wrong|Prof Wrong]] ([[User talk:Prof Wrong|talk]]) 17:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

* WP:MOS insists that any sections be referred to in the lead para.
* 6. This is a footnote, and not a reference as such. I removed the original suggestion from the main text. It is clear both spellings are used, but not being a Gaelic speaker I couldn't tell you the context. I will ask someone more knowledgeable to take a look at it.
*I'll change the text above to "and may mean "winged isle" if you can provide a sources that queries this. There are several that corroborate it. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 18:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

::The shortest answer is that for the most part, An t-Eilean Sgitheanach is simply an opaque place-name. An t-Eilean is clear and means "the island". The ''Sgitheanach'' part is much more difficult. Dr Ian Taylor of the Scottish Place-name Society carefully puts it (of ''An t-Eilean Sgitheanach'') as "This may be "the indented island". An alternative form is ''An t-Eilean Sgiathanach'', which points to ''sgiath'', "wing", as the root of the name. A poetic name of the island is ''Eilean a' Cheò'', "island of the mist"."

:: The problem with coming up with a clear etymology is manifold (the usual lack of data problem aside). ''Sgiathanach'' meaning *"winged" would be an odd formation in Gaelic as the singular noun form (on which adjectives are usually based) is ''sgiath'' ([[Old Irish]] ''sciath''); the usual adjective forming suffix is ''-(e)ach'', yielding ''sgiathach''. This is actually the current Gaelic word for "winged" and the oldest record of this word I have found (as ''sgiathach'') is in [[Edward Lhuyd]]'s 1699 account of Scots Gaelic dialects. To base an adjective on a plural form (''sgiathan'' in this case) would be rather extraordinary in Gaelic; I can't think of a single one. Now, [[Irish language|modern Irish]] has ''sgiathán'' for "wing", having added the masculine diminuitive ''-án''. The problem is that this form is not recorded in Scots Gaelic. The phonetics would not speak against this. The plural ''sgiathan'' /s̪g̊ʲiəhən/ would contain a [[schwa]] in the plural ending. A construct along the lines of Irish ''sgiathán'' on the other hand would require a clear /an/ diminuitive ending. The pronunciation of ''An t-Eilean Sgiathanach'' (recorded by Carl Borgstrøm ''The Dialects of Skye and Ross-shire'' and others) however all contain clear /a/, for example the [[Kilmuir]] speaker has /s̪g̊ʲiəhanəx/. For starters, this makes it certain that we're not dealing with a plural (all Gaelic plural endings have only reduced vowels).

::So the problem for making a case for winged is that:
::*Gaelic already has a word for winged and it's ''sgiathach'', not ''sgiathanach''
::*''sgiathanach'' is not recorded except in the place-name
::*''sgiathanach'' would require an adjectival form of an unrecorded word, *''sgiathan'' "little wing" (which of course also raises the question of why on earth one would use a diminuitive form for a rather large island)

::It's not likey to be ''sgitheanach'' though either, the phonetics strongly disagree with that. ''Sgitheanach'' would result in [[hiatus]] after the /i/, yielding /s̪g̊ʲi.anəx/ but the recorded forms are along the lines /s̪g̊ʲiəhanəx/ /s̪g̊ʲiə.anəx/ or /s̪g̊ʲiaːnəx/ with either an /h/ or hiatus after the /iə/.

::It's definitely not ''sgìth'' "tired" as no recorded pronunciation has a long /i:/. I'm not entirely sure what the "notched isle" etymology is based on but Dr Taylor presumably has some data I'm not privy to.

::The fact that there are early references to "winged" does not necessarily mean they are true. Prior to being Gaelic speaking Scotland was Brythonic speaking and before then who knows. It may simply be a case of a century old folk etymology trying to re-interpret the name and authors pestering natives with questions like "but what does it mean?"... By the way, is the Norse correct? I thought that would be Skuyø if anything? Thinking about it, the Norse name also does not point towards wings... if anything, it points away from it. ''Sgiath'' would have been pronounced along the lines of /s̪gʲiaθ/ back then, which should have yielded Norse *skiþ or something like that, but not -uy (assuming the ö is ''øy'' "island").

::On the whole, IMO the name issue should read something along the lines of "The Gaelic name for the Isle of Skye is ''An t-Eilean Sgiathanach'' (also occasionally spelled ''Sgitheanach''. The meaning of this name is not clear. Various etymologies have been proposed, such as the "winged isle" or "the notched isle" but no definitive solution has been found to date. ''Eilean a' Cheò'' is a name used in Gaelic poetry meaning "The Isle of the Mist". [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 22:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

:(In answer to Ben Macdui, posted concurrently with Akerbeltz.)
:Setting aside sources, evidence etc, one thing is undeniable -- the article itself already makes reference to three different theories of the etymology of the name: Norse for clouds; Gaelic for wings and a Celtic mythological figure. It's hardly NPOV to select one of these theories as correct enough to be in the lead paragraph but demote the others to the etymology section. OK, the ''Scáthach'' link seems to be widely disregarded as fanciful celtic mist, but the Norse theory holds as much support as the "wing" theory. There are as many Norse-derived placenames on Skye as Gaelic-derived ones.

:Now, the following I would say is definitely untrue:
:: Eilean Sgitheanach, (sometimes Eilean Sgiathanach) is the modern Gaelic name and means "winged isle".
:As you don't speak Gaelic, let's change language for a moment, and pick an undisputed placename: Sussex. Sussex is the modern English name, and does not mean "South Saxony". That is not to say that it did not originally mean South Saxony -- it almost certainly did.
:Back to An Eilean Sgitheanach. The modern Gaelic Sgitheanach means Skye-ish, and nothing else. It cannot be used in modern Gaelic to express anything to do with wings. That is not to say that "Sgiathanach" was not the origin (or indeed an accurate modern rendering of the original meaning) -- it may have been -- but whatever the original form was is irrelevant: the only common current form is Eilean Sgitheanach, which does not have any intrinsic meaning of its own.
:[[User:Prof Wrong|Prof Wrong]] ([[User talk:Prof Wrong|talk]]) 22:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

::I take it you mean MacDui, not me as I'm fluent ;)
::Change that to ''Sgiathanach'' rather than ''Sgitheanach'' and I'm fully with you. In modern Gaelic ''sgiathanach'' only ever is a) an adjective (''An t-Eilean Sgiathanach'' and after common nouns, eg ''tha blas sgiathanach aige'' "he has a Skye accent") or b) a noun meaning Skye(wo)man. But I think an explanatory note about possible explanation attempts should be included because as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow someone else is going to put it back otherwise. [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 22:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks for this input folks. I have amended the main text. If this works better I'll have a go a the lead. Perhaps something like: "The island's peninsulas radiate out from a mountainous centre dominated by the Cuillin hills. Although it has been suggested that the Gaelic name describes this shape there is no definitive agreement as to its origins." An additional footnote in etymology would not go amiss, summarising the above. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 08:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. I added a bit more in the etymology section, summing up the argument above with references.

A different point though, I'm not happy with the Norse derivation. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a Norse expert but dealing with Gaelic you learn a number of things about it. First, the word for island invariably seems to be ''øy'' or ''ey'' but not ''öy''. Can anyone check that? Secondly, are we sure about the "mist" thing or is that glossing the Gaelic back into Norse? According to my English Etymological Dictionary (Oxford) the Norse word ''ský'' (which presumably we're dealing with here) is listed with the meaning "cloud", not "mist". Anyone here good on Norse? [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 10:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

:Kaixo. I don't know Norse, but I have always been told it was "cloud" -- aside from this article, I've never heard any claim that Skye originated from "mist". Again though, I have no citations to hand. [[User:Prof Wrong|Prof Wrong]] ([[User talk:Prof Wrong|talk]]) 12:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

::Kaixo hi ere :) I've done a bit of web-digging. The only ref I can find to Skuyö is a submission to a heraldric body [http://herald.sca-caid.org/minutes/1996/min9610.html] which - never mind the strangeness - has a good analyisis of the words. So I did some digging in my own dictionaries. ''Ö'' is modern Swedish for island; ''sky'' is "cloud" in both modern Swedish and Norwegian, Icelandic still has ''ský'', also meaning cloud. I'm a bit worried about this Norse reference now, since the name seems to be a modern Swedish formation. I'm kind of tempted to remove it until we can find a reference to where it says that this was the Norse name... [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 12:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

::Ok, I've tidied the Norse but added a citation needed tag. I know there's a reference in there to Murray ''The Hebrides'' but if he had ''Skuyö'', I don't trust him. I found one lonely reference to ''sky-øy'' in a Norwegian newspaper article [http://www.adressa.no/forbruker/reiseliv/article1061662.ece] so for the time being I'm reasonably confident with ''sky-øy''.

::Indicentally, what is the Cuan Sgith controversy? (a' Chuain Sgith is a gentive, the nominative would be An Cuan Sgith). [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 13:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for the Gaelic update. Lead amended per the above. I added back some Norse names with citations. Neither source can be considered definitive on the subject, but they are verifiable and I'd rather not have 'fact' tags in the middle of a GAN. I'll drop a note at [[Talk:Old Norse]] and see if they can shed some light on the subject. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 20:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Akerbeltz states: ''Now, modern Irish has sgiathán for "wing", having added the masculine diminuitive -án. The problem is that this form is not recorded in Scots Gaelic''. The form ''sciathán'' may not be recorded in Scottish Gaelic but that does not mean that it is not a ''possible'' form in the language. I presume the argument is not that the diminutive affix ''-an'' doesn't exist in Scottish Gaelic but that the word ''sgiathan'' (''sgiath'' + ''an'') has not been recorded? I can think of ''lochan'' and there are probably hundreds of other examples, just as in Irish. [[User:An Muimhneach Machnamhach|An Muimhneach Machnamhach]] ([[User talk:An Muimhneach Machnamhach|talk]]) 23:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

:You're right, there's words like ''lochan'', ''balachan'', ''daidean'' etc but the diminutive suffix does exist in Scots Gaelic but has ceased to be productive except in neologisms (and has been for quite some time as far as we can tell) so it's difficult to argue for a spontaneous form *sgiathan that simply hasn't been recorded. So, *sgiathan (as "shield" or "wing") is theoretically possible but not attested anywhere that I can find (and I have just about any Gaelic dictionary ever printed). Which, given the fact that ''Sgitheanach'' has been well attested for a long time, makes it difficult to argue for a derivation from *sgiathan. [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 23:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

===Norse===
In standardized Old Norse spelling Skýey would mean Cloud-Isle. [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 21:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

:Perfectly understandable MhicDhuibh ;) & thanks @ Haukur. Out of curiosity, why ey not øy? Incidentally, should the [[Isle of Skye Music Festival]] be mentioned or at least linked under Culture?

::øy is the Norwegian version. Check the dictionary entry for [http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0134.png ey]. Also check out [http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0564.png ský] [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 22:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Anyway, it looks to me like an Old Norse form of Skýey isn't actually attested (at least I can't fin it anywhere) so it should technically by marked with an [[Asterisk#Historical_linguistics|asterisk]], *Skýey. [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 22:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

::::I'm going out on a limb here, because I haven't got an old Norse version of [[Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar]] with me at the moment, but I seem to remember the name "Skíð" being used? I'll check it out. "Schid" is used in Latin in a document from c. 1110[http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=15976&s=n&str=] Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion here, but I'm curious now. The latin "Schid" doesn't seem a logical transformation of old Norse *Skýey. --[[User:Barend|Barend]] ([[User talk:Barend|talk]]) 11:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sort of makes sense from the Gaelic POV. the ''-th-'' which in some cases is realised as /h/ in Gaelic indicates that this isn't a case of historic [[hiatus]] but the result of historic /θ/. Sooo... the recorded ''sciti(s)'' would indeed result in Old Gaelic /s̪gʲiθ-/ which in turn would lead to modern /s̪g̊ʲi.-/.

Ok, I'm sure this counts as research but I'll spell it out anyway (going out on a limb myself...).
*let's assume the early recorded forms ''scetis'' and ''scitis'' are correct (as correct as we'll get) names for either a tribe or
location (Skye). We can safely disregard the ending (they look like plurals to me... but my Greek/Latin is weak).
*this would result in [[Old Irish]]/Gaelic /s̪gʲiθ-/. I did some digging and the ending -an also seems to have worked as a simple nominaliser (cf ''meadh'' > ''meadhan'' "middle" (n.)).
*combining ''-an'' with another ending (like ''-ach'' (adjectivaliser) or ''-ach'' (ethnonymiser)) is fairly frequent in Gaelic (cf ''àrd'' "high" > ''àrdan'' "pride" > ''àrdanach'' "haughty")
*the string /s̪gʲiθ-/ + /an/ + /əx/ > /s̪gʲiθanəx/ does not violate any rules of word formation and phonology. It would results in /s̪g̊ʲihanəx/ which in turn can produce the reflexes */s̪g̊ʲi.anəx/ /s̪g̊ʲi.ənəx/ /s̪g̊ʲiənəx/ and /s̪g̊ʲiaːnəx/.
*so the string would be almost analogous to ''Calēdonii/καληδόνιοι'' (Ptolemy) > ''Cailleanach'' /kaʎanəx/ (cf [[Dunkeld]] ''Dùn Chailleann'').
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that ''sciti'' was an ethnonym more than a placename but that it's a likely root for ''sgiathanach''. If this is the case, then the older form would be ''Sgitheanach'' and the ''Sgiathanach'' a case of re-analyis in recent centuries to move away from the opaque ''sgith-'' and approach the more obvious ''sgiath'' "wing".
And that's probably where it stops. The source was likely to have been a [[Brythonic]] language but which one and which word... anyone happen to know Old Brythonic for wing and cloud? But given the scarcity of Brythonic material this far north it would be indicative at best... [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 13:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:I checked Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar (written by an Icelander in Norway in the 1260s). It uses the name "Skíð". I'm removing "Skýey" as the Norse name of the island from the article. From what Akerbeltz writes, if the root of the Old Gaelic name was /s̪gʲiθ-/, the Norse form "Skíð" seems entirely logical, and it makes sense that the name was borrowed from Gaelic to Norse, not the other way around.--[[Special:Contributions/193.160.157.241|193.160.157.241]] ([[User talk:193.160.157.241|talk]]) 16:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

::Fascinating... that kinda explaing An Cuan Sgìth at the same time. I presume ''Skíð'' has no literal meaning in Norse?
::Either way, we need to amend the etymology section because the other chap has the (AFAWK) unattested *Skýey. Presumably we can use the reference on the [[Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar]] page as a reference for "Skíð"? [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

::Ok, I've rephrased the etymology section a bit and left a reference to the Cloud Isle name given by Murray but made it clear that Skíð is the attested form.
::If you feel the style isn't quite right, feel free to edit, it *is* a bit long and in places probably almost counts as OR... although we really just looked up some words ;) [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 17:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully some (nearly) final tweaks in place. I have added a ref from the saga page and trusted that m'learned Norse speaker's view is confirmed there. I'll have a look at the additional etymology text next. I'd feel more comfortable with another reference or two. I realise they may not refer directly to the specific tale of 'Sgiathanach' in its many forms, but something that would confirm the general rules of Gaelic from which the wording is derived would help. Also - do you have a publisher for Borgstrøm (1941)? [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 18:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A few changes to this latter section and a couple of questions. I am not at all sure the wording reads more fluidly in prose rather than list form, but MOS prefers it this way.
*Can you provide a publisher for MacBain, and (he shows his ignorance)
*is it "is scíath (cognate of modern Welsh ysgwydd " or "cognate <u>with</u>" or possibly "cognate <u>to</u>" and
* in "may simply be a case of re-analysis" is this another way of saying "may simply be a case of [[folk etymology]]"? [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 19:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:*Borgstrøm was published by Norwegian University Press 1941; MacBain by Gairm in 1982 ISBN 901771-68-6 (sorry for missing that out). Borgstrøm is a good source for phonological development, along with Magne Oftedal ''The Gaelic of Leurbost'' Norsk Tidskrift for Sprogvidenskap, Oslo 1956 and Kim McCone (ed) ''Stair na Gaeilge'' Coláiste Phàdraig, Maigh Nuad 1994 ISBN 0-901519-90-1.
:*it's ''cognate with''
:*folk-etymology vs re-analysis are not far apart. If I remember rightly folk etymology is more conscious, re-analysis a little less so. Since there is a link for folk-etymology but not re-analysis, we can just stick with f-e. It's hard to tell at this stage anyway.
:I'll have a look at your edits later, gotta go out now. (I'm enjoying this btw!) [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 19:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I've updated the details on MacBain -- 1982 was just a litho reproduction. The original print was by Eneas MacKay of Stirling in 1911 (see http://www.archive.org/details/etymologicaldict00macbuoft)

:::Surely folk etymology must be a widely held belief in the general public, and in that sense is a specialised form of reanalysis (and surely "analysis" implies a concious process?). I'd certainly accept that "winged isle" is becoming accepted among younger people and learners, but the old folks don't seem quite as aware of it. As such, it's certainly ''becoming'' folk etymology, but it's a hard call to say whether it is already....
:::[[User:Prof Wrong|Prof Wrong]] ([[User talk:Prof Wrong|talk]]) 22:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

::The word "skíð" does have a meaning in Old Norse - it means [[ski]]. One could probably make exciting etymological theories based on that - but I'm afraid it's possibly just a coincidence. The reference provided for Skíð sort of works, but not quite, the translation uses the name which Skíð would have evolved into in modern Norwegian, which is "Skid". A completely correct reference would have to be to an Old Norse version of the saga, I'll try to find one, because I'm curious about the names of some of the other islands as well. And, what do you know, there I found one. [[Heimskringla]] also mentions "Skíð", in the saga of [[Magnus III of Norway|Magnus Barefoot]]. It is used in a skaldic poem: "Hungrþverrir lét herjat hríðar gagls á Skíði"[http://www.heimskringla.no/original/heimskringla/sagamagnuskonungsberfoetts.php] (dative case). The wikisource translation gives "The hunger battle-birds were filled
::In Skye with blood of foemen killed".[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Magnus_Barefoot%27s_Saga#King_Magnus_Makes_War_on_the_Southern_Hebudes.] The saga is from c. 1230, but the poem would be c. 1100. So Skíð is well attested as the Old Norse name from 1100 at least. I'm curious about what is the source of "Skuyö".--[[User:Barend|Barend]] ([[User talk:Barend|talk]]) 22:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I think the best evidence of this folk-etymology establishing itself is the change in the spelling, from older (I checked some of my older books) ''Sgitheanach'' to ''Sgiathanach'' which resembles ''sgiath'' more and moves away from the opaque ''sgith''. The fact that the pronunciations collected by Borgstrøm back then (before learners and the web) reflect that, suggests an old process, whether conscious or not.
:::Skis... I think you are right about the coincidence. The entry above ''sgiath'' in MacBain is for ''sgiath'' "shield" which he gives as a cognate of Norse ''skið'' meaning "firewood, billet of wood, tablet". It looks like the two Gaelic words ultimately have the same root but I think the correspondence of ''Skye/Skíð'' to the word for skis is, as you say, coincidence. Thanks for digging up all the Norse stuff! [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 22:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Barend has done a good job here. [[Finnur Jónsson (philologist)|Finnur Jónsson]]'s dictionary of the poetic language lists these occurrences of the name:

*Björn krepphendi: http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/bkrep.html
*Gísl Illugason: http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/gislm.html
*Nafnaþulur: http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/thul4b.html#bbb
*Verse in Örvar-Odds saga: http://www.snerpa.is/net/forn/orvar.htm [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 23:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

::Great stuff folks. Re: "I'm curious about what is the source of "Skuyö"." - [[W. H. Murray|Murray]] was the best writer of his generation on the subject of the western seaboard of Scotland. However, he was not an academic or (so far as I know) a speaker of a Scandinavian language or Gaelic. The complete wording he uses is "To the Norsemen it was Skuyö (pronounced Skya) meaning Isle of Cloud, which is rendered in the Gaelic as Eilean a' Cheo." There is no obvious reference provided for this statement. [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 08:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Right. I am pretty close to saying flat out that Murray must be plain wrong. "Skuyö" certainly wouldn't be pronounced "Skya" in any Nordic language or dialect that I know of. It sounds like he was outside of his field of expertice.--[[User:Barend|Barend]] ([[User talk:Barend|talk]]) 10:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:::It is probably not relevant but I now notice that Dean Munro's original spelling may have been "This iyle is callit by the Erishe Ellan Skyane, that is to say in Englishe the Wingitt ile, be reason it has maney wyngs and points lyand furth frae it, through the devyding of thir loches." Anyone care to speculate about the co-incidence that it has been suggested that [[St Kilda, Scotland|St Kilda]] may be derived from "the Old Icelandic ''Skildir'' ("shields") " ? [[User:Ben MacDui|Ben MacDui]]<sup><font color="#228B22">[[User talk:Ben MacDui|Talk]]</font></sup><font color="#228B22">/</font><small><font color="#228B22">[[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|Walk]]</font></small> 08:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The source language for St Kilda was most certainly not Gaelic but to me, Skildir looks like an unlikely candidate. The Gaelic name for it is ''Hiort(a)'' [hirˠʃd̪̊ə]. If the [h] is historic it's almost certainly not Goidelic in origin because h is disallowed as a root initial except as the result of [[lenition|lenited]] t but that is consistently represented as orthographic th.
I have always considered it as a cognate of ''Kilda'' though, you could derive one from the other, either by leniting ''Kilda'' to [çirˠʃd̪̊ə] and then reducing the [ç] to [h] (there is some evidence of this being an occasional process in Gaelic, cf ''gach uile'' > ''a h-uile'') although the change from l to r is a little more odd, but not impossible. Alternatively (early?) Gaelic [çirˠʃd̪̊ə] could be the source with [[strengthening]] of the [ç] to [k] because [[Scots language|Scots]](?) does not allow initial [ç]. Or, yet another possibility is Gaelic [[hypercorrection]] of [çirˠʃd̪̊ə] or [hirˠʃd̪̊ə] to ''*Kirta'' when quizzed on the place name ([[backformation|backforming]] lenition is very common in Gaelic, cf hogshead > ''tocasaid'', hallur > ''talla'', vervain > ''bearbhain'').
Where was I? ''Skildir''.... I think it's unlikely as Gaelic is quite happy with sc/sk initials. It depends on the pronunciation though, at the back of my mind I have a [ʃ] for sk or is that entirely modern? If this was [ʃildir] in Norse, it *could* the the source of *[hildə] in Gaelic (through lenition). Not sure about the motivation for l > r though, I need to check but it's possible that Gaelic dislikes -ld- after a front vowel. Am I making *any* sense? LOL [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 09:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:Old Norse ''skildir'' (shields) will have been pronounced [scildir]. In Old English [ʃ] came early but in Old Norse it came late (Faroese) or not at all (Icelandic). The easy way to remember is that 'skirt' is Norse and 'shirt' is English. [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 09:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ok I'll remember that. Would that be [c] as in a palatal stop? [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 12:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes. Though when exactly it became palatalized is a bit hard to tell. [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 12:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok... though that doesn't make the Kilda problem any easier to solve. [sc] would just end up as [ʃd̊ʲ] in Gaelic but I'd expect the whole word to look something like [ʃd̊ʲild̊ʲɪɾʲ]. I checked -ld- and it's very rare in Gaelic except in the odd loanword so that may well have promted to l > r change to avoid the unpopular cluster. I checked the date on St Kilda Gaelic and palatal -st- ought to result in [ʃd̊ʲ] or [sʲd̊ʲsʲ] (the second one is weird).
I dunno, I'm almost certain that ''Kilda'' and ''Hiort'' have the same origin but which way round I can't tell... It just doesn't look Goidelic either so a Norse origin seems logical but you'd have to go through a few hoops to derive it from ''skild-''. Not impossible though - you'd have to simplify the cluster to ''*sild(ir)'' or ''*kild(ir)'' and then invoke the change from -ld- to -rd- and lenition to give you *[hiɾd̪] and [hirˠʃd̪̊] (Gaelic developed in intrusive [ʃ] in rt clusters; St Kilda is reported to have had forms with and without it).
So it's phonologically possible... but why call the island after a shield? Is this an attested form in Norse by the way? [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 16:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Right, get your sagas out ;) Oftedal says the following: ''[hirˠʃd̪̊] "St Kilda" Old Norse Hirtir (Prestssaga Guðmundar Arasonar chapter 49; the name may be pre-Norse but has certainly been transmitted through Norse).
:So it looks like we went ''Hirt(ir)'' > ''Hiort'' leaving the English form Kilda to explain. I suspect hypercorrection of Gaelic ''Hiort'' [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 17:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

::Interesting. ''Hirtir'' is plural of ''hjörtr'' (stag). [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] ([[User talk:Haukurth|talk]]) 17:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Very... it's not proof of course but ''hjörtr'' would actually be a better source for [hirˠʃd̪̊] because in ''hirtir'' I'd sort of expect a palatal final [d̊ʲ]. But why stags? I guess they might have taken some there to roam and ocassionally kill, a bit like the Gaels did with sheep. Weird. [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 18:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought the theory of "shields" for St Kilda relied on the Norse name of [[Haskeir]] being incorrectly ascribed to what we now call St Kilda by a few cartographers. That theory suggests that there is no etymological link between Hiort and St Kilda, which certainly seems likely.

:Well it wouldn't be the first name to have derived from a misunderstanding of some sort and would neatly explain why St Kilda has the ''Saint'' whereas the Gaelic ''Hiort'' never takes ''naomh''. Given that we seem to have most major places mentioned in the sagas (how convenient, cheers Erik Bloodaxe!), do we have a mention of ''Skilðar'' or ''Skilðir'' though for St Kilda? We have at least one mention of ''Hirtir'' and we can't just ignore that.
:Mind, mapmapkers are not immune to folk-etymologies and Nicholas de Nicolay may simply have done a bit of on the spot folk-etymologising and entered ''Skildar'' because he fancied it. ...they so needed a ''citation needed'' tag in those days ;)
:It is still easier to derive ''Hiort(a)'' from ''Hirt(ir)'' (or even ''Kilda'') than from ''Skilðar''... [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 10:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I want to propose an etymoligical link with the name 'Cat'. It might stem from a Brythonic Pictish root word. Derivations are found in 'Caithnes', 'Cataibh' (Sutherland) and 'Inse Catt' (Shetland). Though for 'Sutherland' it's explained that it derives from Norse 'Sudhrland', but often local words are formed in similar sounding words of the language of new settlers, especially if they make sense. I know, that this doesn't mean that 'sudh' is related to 'skidh'; it's only a suggestion. No etymology is given for 'shet' in 'Shetland'; because of the offered relation to 'Cat', I simply guessed, that 'cat' and 'shet' are later forms of the same root, something like 'scat' or 'scet'. I thought that the forms 'shet' and 'suther' are derivates where the 'k' / 'c' has been lost, while in the other forms 'cat', 'cait' and 'caith' the 's' has been lost. When reading the article about Skye I found the words 'skidh', 'scitis', 'scetis', 'sketis' and thought about the similarity to 'shet' and 'cat'. I feel supported by the mention of Akerbeltz: "I'd say that sciti was an ethnonym more than a placename". Maps show the kingdom of Cat comprising this area. This might look like a placename, but for Shetland I found the description 'Inse Catt, meaning "islands of the Cat people"'; I don't if this is true, anyway tribal names and place names often match. [[User:Truchses|Truchses]] ([[User talk:Truchses|talk]]) 18:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

== Sgitheanach vs Sgiathanach ==

The article currently states:
: The Gaelic name for the Isle of Skye is An t-Eilean Sgiathanach (older spelling Sgitheanach).

I'd like to give a few examples that contradict this statement:

The Sabhal Mór Ostaig site uses ''An t-Eilean Sgitheanach'' in their address. [www.smo.uhi.ac.uk] It is also the only translation for Skye they give in the SDBG -- ''Sgiathanach'' is not listed. [http://smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/sbg/lorg.php]

The Skye and Lochalsh site has a logo graphic reading ''Sgitheanach''. The word also appears in Google's blurb. [www.skye.co.uk]

Gaelic Wikipedia has ''An t-Eilean Sgitheanach'' as both a category and an article. ''An t-Eilean Sgiathanach'' doesn't even occur as a redirect currently. [gd.wikipedia.org]

Using Google as a poor man's corpus gives 12,500 hits for "An t-Eilean Sgitheanach" and only 876 for "An t-Eilean Sgiathanach".

A similar search at www.scottish.parliament.gov.uk give 46 for ''Sgitheanach'' and 2 for ''Sgiathanach''.


== The University of Edinburgh Translation Assignment ==
(I don't know what the Ordnance Survey have to say about this as they don't include Gaelic titles for their Skye maps.)


I am the student of the University of Edinburgh and I am taking part in this Wikipedia programme. I am pleased to finish this translation with my peer (User name: Skye Dong). If there appears any questions, please feel free to contact us. :)
All this strongly supports ''Sgitheanach'' as the term with massively greater currency, so even if ''Sgiathanach'' is a newer orthographic form, I contest the labelling of ''Sgiathanach'' as "modern" and "Sgitheanach" as an "older" form. I feel this distorts the picture somewhat.


This is not the appropriate place to test out translations. Please use Wikipedia in other languages (in your case, Chinese Wikipedia) for any content in languages besides English. [[User:Mmace91|Mmace91]] ([[User talk:Mmace91|talk]]) 17:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
[[User:Prof Wrong|Prof Wrong]] ([[User talk:Prof Wrong|talk]]) 11:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
:Yes, good point, I agree, especially after the above discussion ''Sgiathanach'' is a more modern variant. I though that's what Dr Taylor had used (he's the one to go by as a rule of thumb) but he does't, he has ''Sgitheanach'' too. I'll change it. [[User:Akerbeltz|Akerbeltz]] ([[User talk:Akerbeltz|talk]]) 12:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
[[File:Sciences humaines.svg|40px]] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-01-21">21 January 2019</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-02-13">13 February 2019</span>. Further details are available [[Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Colorado_College/Introduction_to_Global_Climate_Change_(Block_5)|on the course page]]. Peer reviewers: [[User:Saucyb123|Saucyb123]].


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The University of Edinburgh Translation Assignment

[edit]

I am the student of the University of Edinburgh and I am taking part in this Wikipedia programme. I am pleased to finish this translation with my peer (User name: Skye Dong). If there appears any questions, please feel free to contact us. :)

This is not the appropriate place to test out translations. Please use Wikipedia in other languages (in your case, Chinese Wikipedia) for any content in languages besides English. Mmace91 (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2019 and 13 February 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Saucyb123.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:57, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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