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==Castel del Monte==
|action3date=17:54, 14 December 2010
The article currently claims
|action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Castle/archive1
:"Frederick II's Castel del Monte in Puglia has no keep at all: built on high ground, it is an octagonal structure with eight polygonal corner towers."
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in the middle of a discussion about the decreasing importance of the keep v. the curtain walls. Problem is... if there is no interior structure and the outer walls are not enclosing a ''large'' space (like a small village), there are no curtain walls and you're just talking about the keep (or a fort, if there's no living space appended to the walls.) Either way, I don't think the castle functions the way they wish it did. Curious if I (and the [[Castel del Monte]] article) are just missing something about the innovation going on in its design, though. -[[User:LlywelynII|LlywelynII]] ([[User talk:LlywelynII|talk]]) 09:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
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|maindate=24 February 2010
==Encei... Curtain Walls==
|maindate2=July 3, 2017
Is there a reason we're using an obscure French term for this section? The linked pages (which are separate and indicate they are ''not'' synonyms) say that enceintes are for city walls and ecclesiastical structures and more properly describe the ''empty'' space, while curtain walls are for castles and describe... y'know... ''walls''. Presumably this article is about the latter. -[[User:LlywelynII|LlywelynII]] ([[User talk:LlywelynII|talk]]) 09:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
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:Wiktionary also has the English meaning of enceinte only embracing "pregnant." The French use is "enclosure," but not the fence or wall itself. -[[User:LlywelynII|LlywelynII]] ([[User talk:LlywelynII|talk]]) 14:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
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Enceinte is not an obscure term at all. Its a technical word widely used in the english castle literature. It means enclosure, but most commentators have for decades used "enceinte". It can be used to distiguish certain kinds of castles: castles of enceinte, means castles with an enclosing wall, rather than a peel tower or something. In short, the linked pages are wrong. [[User:CJ DUB|CJ DUB]] ([[User talk:CJ DUB|talk]]) 04:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Military history|class=FA|Fortifications=yes|Medieval=yes|Technology=yes}}

{{WikiProject Architecture|importance=top}}
== Removed external link to my website Can I appeal the removal? ==
{{WikiProject Home Living|importance=mid}}
Hi,
{{WikiProject Middle Ages|importance=High}}

{{WikiProject Archaeology|importance=high}}
Yeah, so I had some 'external links' to my website, British Castle, http://www.britishcastle.co.uk, removed from your wiki castle pages. I hoped to add more as I have been pleased with the traffic generated by some other links I've had on wiki castle pages. However, the links were recently removed. Someone did alert me to argue my case at the time but I didn't know how to. So here I am now.
}}

{{User:MiszaBot/config
I understand my sites does show ads but then so do quite a few of the external links on other wiki pages. And the decision to remove is also confusing since I have on other external links on wiki pages which have happily served your visitors for maybe a year now; http://www.craigmillarcastle.com, http://www.holyroodhouse.com and http://www.pendenniscastle.com. Over the course of time, I developed the British Castle website and to avoid duplicating content I've since redirected individual castle sites to the (for want of a better word) meta site. Have these links been kept because of the pertinent domain names? I wonder? But then britishcastle.co.uk should have been okay. IMO, there is some quite good and useful content on the site, eg., official website of each castle, easy to use google maps, great stock photos, a useful search facility, eg., what king/castle association can be found and, of course, I must mention some great content from a number of authors from around the world (which I did pay at least UK minimum wage).
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Finally, in support of my case, I like to think I apply a good ethical standard to my websites. An example of this, I have always included a link back to Wiki whenever I've been unable to source content commercially, eg., at http://www.britishcastle.co.uk/index.php?pageId=CraigmillarCastle_Surrender (from the photo) or a better example at http://britishcastle.co.uk/index.php?&pageId=GuildfordCastle_theCastle. Indeed, there are some 20 pages and 40 individual links to wikipedia.org pages from the British Castle website.
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I'd be pleased to hear your considerations.
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|archive = Talk:Castle/Archive %(counter)d
Regards,
}}
Mike Flynn
{{Annual readership}}
forthside.co.uk <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Forthside|Forthside]] ([[User talk:Forthside|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Forthside|contribs]]) 17:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:edited ( and now signed [[User:Forthside|Forthside]] ([[User talk:Forthside|talk]]) 17:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC) )
:No one replied yet so I thought it'd be okay to add a link here for British Castles but probably not for each individual castle (though I'd still like to). - ([[User talk:88.111.216.111|talk]]) 11:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

==Vandalism by a stupid nasty prejudiced nationalistic pro-Spanish, anti-Italian ....editor==
It has taken me an hour and 15 minutes to check out every one of this person's edits to see if they needed deletion, or had already been spotted and deleted. My advice is, check every single edit by any nameless editor and be suspicious of it. Not ''every'' edit by this person was actually vandalistic. But with total egocentricity, he/she failed to comprehend the paragraphs into which he/she stuffed detailed material on specific Spanish castles, as if there wasn't enough mention of Spanish castles in the article already. Changing the location of the pics in Italy to Spain, and deleting a list of famous Florentine Renaissance architects really got up my nose. I don't want to have to add this article to the long list that I watch already. Could someone please be diligent about watching this problem? [[User:Amandajm|Amandajm]] ([[User talk:Amandajm|talk]]) 10:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:There have been a lot of edits to this article recently by [[Special:Contributions/68.173.91.50|68.173.91.50]]. I've noticed that the editor has removed information in the article relating to Italy [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282867056&oldid=282866491], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282867749&oldid=282867056], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282864343&oldid=282863872], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282864638&oldid=282864343] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=283304440&oldid=283022666], for no apparent reason (the editor never uses an edit summary). Strangely, the editor also altered the captions for the images [[:File:Castel del monte3.jpg]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282866491&oldid=282865588] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282984782&oldid=282984533]), and [[:File:Fortezza di Sarzana.jpg]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Castle&diff=282867749&oldid=282867056]) claiming they are in Spain and not Italy. [[User:BarretBonden|BarretBonden]] ([[User talk:BarretBonden|talk]]) 10:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
::I have changed the captions back to their original wording but I have left the other edits as they are. [[User:BarretBonden|BarretBonden]] ([[User talk:BarretBonden|talk]]) 21:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I know "assume good faith" and everything, but I think all their edits should be reverted. The file info said the castles are in Italy, the person who uploaded the images is also the one who took them and I trust them to know where they were. If those IP edits were wrong, I wouldn't hold out much hope that the other edits are factually accurate. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 21:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
::::I just checked out all the edits of this person. It is someone pushing a particular barrow. They are deleting references to other places and shoving in refernces to Spain, rightly or wrongly. The same problem has occurred with an un-named editor on the Gothis architecture page and elsewher. I also recommend that ALL their edits be examined and probably deleted. Unfortunately it's too late to do a roll-back, because there have been too many edits since.
::::Re sizing of pics. I have just reduced some of them. If one is not cautious with oversizing, then an editor who knows the rules backwards will come along and reduce the whole lot to thumbnails. (sigh!)
::::This article is really good. it needs some more references, and then it needs to be promoted. Obviously the current B assessment doesn't do it justice. - [[User:Amandajm|Amandajm]] ([[User talk:Amandajm|talk]]) 08:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Then I looked again and found the vandalism. [[User:Amandajm|Amandajm]] ([[User talk:Amandajm|talk]]) 00:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

==Message for Nev1 and BarretBonden==
OK, you guys discussed it, on the 12th of April, but you didn't '''do it'''. You two, and whoever else watches this page (I'm not one of them) saw the inserted errors, saw the numerous deletions, permitted a list of important architects to be simply deleted by someone that ''you'' BB, then messaged over the lack of edit summaries. What you got back was a smug message that said "Thanks for allowing me to make changes, my buddy!"

The bottom line is that you discussed this and did nothing about it. There were subsequent edits, including your caption reversals BB, and these pushed the vandalism into obscurity, until a knowledgeable editor queried the statement that castles in Europe were based on those of the [[Goths]] (with the word (Gothic) in parenthesis).

No change as important to the meaning of the article as changing [[Romans]] to [[Goths]] can possible be made without discussion unless it is made by a major contributor to the article that you really trust. (and certainly not without an edit summary). But you editors permitted this to happen.

I am disgusted at the parasitical and loathsome behaviour of a person who takes pleasure in undermining and destroying what others have done. But I also feel pretty cross with you who saw what was happening and didn't take the appropriate steps at a point when the changes could be reversed easily. If I hadn't decided, out of the blue, to check the castles article, then every reference to Italy would still be missing, and the bit of sheer stupidity would still be in the introduction for every kid to put in their homework. - [[User:Amandajm|Amandajm]] ([[User talk:Amandajm|talk]]) 00:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
:We have other things to do, I have an FAC and an FLC to look after at the moment, and as they're both higher quality articles they take precedent. So sometimes, things slip through the net. In fact, one of the things I was doing in the meantime was looking for books to help improve this article after you highlighted that it's not in such a bad state. Before then I'd only really glanced at it, but it's got potential and the structure seems sensible. Are you interested in helping to add references? [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 01:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
::To comment on what you have written here: the article needed rollback or reverting long before I looked at it!
::About higher quality article taking precedence, my priority is generic artcles. The way I see it, an encylcopedia, to be effective, needs a good article on "Castle" more than it needs a good article on "Dover Castle". The latter is the cream on the cake. However, they are very much easier to do. I like tidying up the articles on specific cathedrals.
::The reason that I am here is that I rewrote the article on [[Gothic architecture]]. As an editor has recently pointed out, it is severely lacking in details about any building form except major churches. However, as the article is very long, there is no room to deal with all the building types and a series of main articles need to be linked to it, preferably with a short paragraph about each major type of building, eg Castles, Town Halls etc.
::So I lifted some pertinenet material from this article and editted it and attempted to put it into [[Gothic architecture]]. At this point my blanky server dropped me out and lost the lot, which happens frequently. It often takes me three or four tries to save something, which is frustrating and time consuming.
::I came and checked this article out and it looked basically good, and then I saw the [[Goth]] bit in the intro and started looking further. .... I can't help wondering how many articles that individual has undermined.
::Castles is not my particular subject so I'm glad that you are working on this one. I'll proceed by looking to see what has been done and trying to fill the gaps in other aspects relating to the Gothic.
::This article, as it must, talks about form and function, not style. The latter is an aspect of much less importannce where a castle is concerned. However, style is reflected in castles to a degree, and some mention of the change from round Norman/Romanesque arches to the more functinal and decorative pointed ones might be possible. If interiors are discussed, then features like ribbed vaulting and clustered columns of the Gothic period become significant.
::One thing this article lacks is dates. There are many instances where a broad time-frame needs to be given. One sentence containing important info starts "Early on...." What does this mean? 800 AD or 1000 AD or earlier. etc. Dates within the picture captions are a big help to give the reader the general concept of the development.
::See ya round! - [[User:Amandajm|Amandajm]] ([[User talk:Amandajm|talk]]) 11:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Any help would be gratefully received. If you keep losing what you're writing because of your server, it might be worth either using firefox (which retains what I write even if I navigate away from the page I'm working on) or making changed in something like Word and the copying across the changes. The second option is more arduous, but is worthwhile for long edits.
:::I agree it's more important to get this article to GA (for example) than it was to get [[Warwick Castle]] to FA, but it's a matter of time, resources, and motivation. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Core_vs._obscure This discussion about core topics at WT:FAC is worth a read]. I've also found that working on satellite articles gives a greater understanding of the overall subject, and I think it's a good primer for tackling the "big one". However, the problem is that the majority of sources I have are Anglo-centric, or at least concentrate heavily on Britain. To avoid making the article unbalanced, I'll be editing slowly and will have to look for more sources down the local library. This will probably take several months to sort out properly. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 12:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

:::(Update) The IP edit has returned and is again inserting POV. Part of the problem before is that the article was almost entirely unreferenced so it was difficult to know what was correct. This time, referenced material was removed. I have warned the user, and if they persist they will be blocked. The IP address has changed slightly so if the editor continues to jump between IPs it may become necessary to protect the article to prevent further vandalism. Hopefully it won't come to that. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 21:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


== The ongoing squabble about what a "Castle" is ==
== Historical context ==
This article is lacking a proper historical context. For starters, fortified palaces and residences for monarchs is as old as civilization itself.If you look at Egypt, Babylon, Persia and elsewhere you will find the origin of this concept. Architecturally, the form of the modern castle also is based on far more ancient origins in ancient cultures. Crenelations, towers, walls, flags and all the trappings of a modern castle can be found in ancient Persia, Babylon, Egypt and elsewhere from 2,000 years prior to the first castle in Europe.


Once again, the subject of the article has been flagged. Yes there are things other than the subject structures that are called castles. But the subject of the article remains the English-language fortified-residence castle. I am sure that in languages not English, the word that is often translated to "Castle" in English may well need to refer to a very different set of structures. "Castle" is an English word that refers to (haha) castles. It also can simply refer to any magnificent/old mansion. But the subject of the article remains. I think if there is adequate interest, it might be that we need articles like (I don't think we do but...) "Castle (mansion)", "Castle (Japan)" or some such. But in English language literature, castle immediately invokes a crenelated, often moated, fortified residence. Unless there is support for leaving them in, I will remove the 2 "citation needed" items when I pass back through in weeks/months.[[User:Shajure|Shajure]] ([[User talk:Shajure|talk]]) 02:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
And, the introduction of this style of architecture and the idea of a fortified royal residence can be traced back to Islamic Spain. The oldest fortress in Europe is Gormaz Castle, which can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormaz_Castle. And this style of architecture was used throughout Islamic Spain for fortresses and royal residences from the 8th century onwards. But this tradition itself is based on older roots in the waning Sassanid Persian dynasties which collapsed in the 8th century. They have left many castles and fortresses that presage those of Muslim Spain all over Eastern Europe into Central Asia. Some examples are Castle Aflak in Persia as well as Djerbent in Russia. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent. Castle Aflak: http://www.pbase.com/k_amj/falak
:This is not to mention the ancient fortresses and fortified palaces of places like Egypt, which were ritually, symbolically and politically important and elevated within the art and culture of ancient Egypt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buhen [[User:Big-dynamo|Big-dynamo]] ([[User talk:Big-dynamo|talk]]) 10:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
::And don't forget the ancient castles of Israel also. They too must be mentioned in the article, unless some americans in here raise objections about it.
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 04:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


:There is an article about the structure we call [[House]] in English. It includes examples of the variation in construction materials and form, and there are examples from Europe, North America, East Asia, and other parts of the world. The subject is not limited to the English-speaker's mental and cultural image of a "house". It includes all structures, no matter what they are called in the language(s) of the home cultures, that fulfill the criteria of the definition of the English word "house". The word "house" is not a proper noun, so it is not restricted to one specific building. The generalized, inclusive article [[House]] does not preclude the need for more detailed or specialized articles on structures such as [[mobile home]], [[townhouse]], [[mansion]], and other structures that may be identified as, or fall within the parameters, of a house; nor does it necessitate articles on houses in each culture and language, because in many cultures, the word for "house" still denotes a permanent structure with four walls and a roof, intended as a residence, and so most such articles would become redundant. All of this applies to the term [[castle]]. - [[User:Boneyard90|Boneyard90]] ([[User talk:Boneyard90|talk]]) 19:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
In case none of you guys noticed the title of this article is CASTLE not FORTRESS. The definition is clearly outlined at the top, supported by references. The definition does not include ancient fortresses. Fortunately however there are many wiki articles on these topics. By the way Gormaz Castle is not the oldest castle in Europe. Thanks for the comments. [[User:CJ DUB|CJ DUB]] ([[User talk:CJ DUB|talk]]) 02:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::These comments do not seem to be relevant to translation errors. --[[User:SergeWoodzing|SergeWoodzing]] ([[User talk:SergeWoodzing|talk]]) 11:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
::There are French expressions like "maison forte", and stronger "chateau fort", to emphasize a really permanent structure, appropriate to live in and appropriate to be defended by the inhabitants. German expression "Festes Haus" for a smaller castle, a fortified house easy to defend, means the same. Similar expressions are "Turmhof" and "Turmhaus" ("tower (farm) yard" / "tower house") or "Weiher Haus" ("house in a pond"). Castles had been built in response to challenges and threats, as well as in accordance to military necessities, representative purposes and adminstrative tasks. A lot of castles had been remodelled as circumstances changed and time went by: For example, a Norman motte-and-baily style castle originally had been appropriate for a smaller number of inhabitants, but could easily been expanded over the decades and centuries. Some old motte style castles have been expanded to impressive sizes continously until today, as shows Windsor Castle. [[Special:Contributions/2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF|2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF]] ([[User talk:2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF|talk]]) 20:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


== Age of Castles in Britain ==


Castles had been existing in Britain, as well as in almost all other European regions, at least since early Celtic times. However, as late as end of 11th century, the motte style castles came to Britain due to an invasion by William the Bastard, a self styled "Norman" warrior and as "William the Conqueror" new "king of England". So any statement that there had been no castles in Britain before 1066 are mere nonsense. Please correct this.[[Special:Contributions/2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF|2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF]] ([[User talk:2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF|talk]]) 11:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Just to remind someone in here, the title of this article is CASTLES. So, to correct that individual, the oldest caslte in europe is the Gormaz Castle. And here's the proof:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/a/ar/arab_gormaz_castle.htm


:The article does not claim there were no castles in Britain before 1066. Instead it notes, with reference to [[D. J. Cathcart King]] (1998, pp. 32-43), that castles were introduced to England shortly before 1066. [[User:Richard Nevell|Richard Nevell]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell|talk]]) 19:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Though I'm not accusing anyone of covering up the truth, this talks volumes about long established bias in history. This bias stems from the notion that only certain northern european/american histories are allowed validation over others. As I've talked about this before, this is highly unfair. Americans must accept the fact that there are contributions made by other countries that must be acknowledged. Americans possess the propensity of not accepting the truth because they think that if it didn't come from them that it must not have been made possible. Again, this is highly discriminatory, biased, and apparently leads people down a path of ignorance of the facts.
::Thank you! However, as ancient Britain had been part of the Celtic culture, there had been castles way before. As "castle" is derived from Latin and the Romans had conquerred Celtic Europe, including what became England in later centuries, David James Cathcart King either must have been ignoring Latin sources or he misunderstood what he found. Of course, specific motte style castles had only become predominant in England after 1066, however there had been an enormous amount of castles built n other styles/ according to other concepts before. A castle always had been built for specific needs and due to specific challenges. For example, king Alfred the Great did build castles, and so did his noble men, according to the threats and fortification necessities of their time. Genereally speaking, in Europe, building fortifications might have started as soon as at the end of Neolithicum/ Younger Stone Age - and Britain had already been in close contact with Central Europe in this time.
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 15:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::I have visitied a lot of castles so far, and in fact, a lot of castles are way older than the structures you see today. There has been quite a lot of research on this: E. g. archeologist Carl Schuchhardt had dedicated his whole life to do scientific research on castles. He had been one of Europe's best experts during his time. However, in Britain some of the research work done by people on the continent might have been ignored? [[Special:Contributions/2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF|2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF]] ([[User talk:2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF|talk]]) 20:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
:::It's an interesting issue which comes down to how castles are defined - where is the line drawn between what is a castle and what isn't?
:::Castle studies in England, Wales, and Scotland draws a distinction between castles and other types of fortifications. The ''[[burh]]s'' built by Alfred do have some relation to castles - indeed some later had castles built within them - but are typically treated as separate entities in the literature and have been since the early 20th century (summarised briefly in [https://doi.org/10.1080/00665983.1967.11078310 "The Origins of the Castle in England the Institute's Research Project"]). [[Hillfort]]s again are treated separately.
:::While the term castle is derived from Latin, I don't think that's a particular problem. Words change meaning over time through different usage and different context. The Latin derivation isn't coincidental of course. The medieval elite would often deliberately co-opt the Roman past, so blurring the line between castle and Roman fort isn't accidental. Castles were established within or just on the edges of Roman forts at Pevensey, Portchester, Chester, and Leicester.
:::I'm not familiar with Schuchhardt's work, though I see his [https://archive.org/details/Schuchhardt 1931 book], ''Die Burg im Wandel der Weltgeschichte'', is available online. I am unfortunately entirely reliant on Google Translate to work with German sources. It looks like an interesting read!
:::Transfer of ideas across languages can be much slower than amongst researchers with a shared language. There are at least regular conferences such Chateau Gaillard are an important forum for exchanging ideas. The bi-annual publication regularly contains papers in French, English, and German (I think I've seen other languages as well), and ''Burgen und Schlösser'' published by the German Castles Institute is primarily German-language but has included articles in English. It is worth noting that [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Early_European_Castles/qHDNCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=early+medieval+castles+creighton&printsec=frontcover "castle scholarship has, with rare exceptions, been pursued within the confines of particular countries and regions. Broader geographical approaches are neglected"]. The same source notes that burhs weren't always large communal fortifications, an aspect which set them largely outside the somewhat porous definition of a castle, so there may be scope for more integration of burhs into discussion of castles. At this stage, I think we'd need sources which contextualise the historiography to guide the content of the article should such a change be made. [[User:Richard Nevell|Richard Nevell]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell|talk]]) 10:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
:::There are endless discussions in the 6 archives, and the FAC, over the definition. Don't let's go there again - it's not really an "interesting issue", especially 5th time around. The article is written to cover a particular definition and scope, but of course other definitions exist. An article that tried to cover all of them would be a sprawling mess. It was decided years ago that people searching for "castle" were most likely to want European medieval castles etc, and this seems still correct to me. If people want [[Japanese castle]]s, [[Celtic hillfort]]s and so on, they will most likely use other search terms. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
::::The problem with the article is that it implies that 1) Romans only built castellum in Britain or Germany, when they didn't. 2) That the Calingians were responsible for evolving the style of earlier Roman castellum into castles when they weren't. 3) That all aspects of castle architecture therefore come from 1 and 2 which all completely false.
::::First, the Romans built castellum all over Europe, the Levant and North Africa and therefore those structures and the terms used to describe them influenced more than just the English language. So to argue that what makes a "castle" limited to the history of the English language is a nonsensical, non historic argument. For example, in Spain, [[wiktionary:castillo|the word castillo also exists as a derivation of the Roman Castel]] and also applies to similar structures. And many early Islamic and Christian castles were built on top of older Roman or Visigothic ruins.
::::Which then leads to the second point that the Carolingians were not the main social organization and culture responsible for first building castles in Europe. As there are no Carolingian castles, since most of them are simply palaces based on old Roman style Basilicas and Villas. Again, the actual earliest history of the use of vassals and nobles to defend various regions with their own fortified residences are found in Spain, from Muslims and then Christians.
::::Thirdly the idea that these combinations of battlements, curtain walls, terrain and geography as part of castle architecture originated with the Carolingians based on Roman precedents is also false. Again, both Christians and Muslims in Spain have been using terrain and various ancient traditions of architecture including earlier Roman works to build Castles long before anything anywhere else in Europe. This includes castles on strategic terrain, such as hilltops and spurs, castles near rivers and so forth.
::::Suffice to say, if this is simply an issue of language and distinguishing the history and derivation of the English term "castle" then that is one thing. But to argue that this language derivation represents the complete history and extent of buildings in Europe with features called "castles" in English is simply dishonest.
::::Oldest and Largest castle in Europe:
::::[[Castle_of_Gormaz]]
::::Note that the wiki claims that Château de Doué-la-Fontaine is the oldest when there is nothing remaining that shows anything like what is being called a castle based on language or architecture.
::::[[Château de Doué-la-Fontaine]]
::::Hilltop Castle Spain based on earlier Roman and Celtiberian forts:
::::[[Xativa_Castle]]
::::Spanish Christian Castle:
::::[[Peñafiel_Castle]]
::::Another old Spanish Castle based on Roman and Muslim structures:
::::[[Castle_of_Almodóvar_del_Río]] [[User:Big-dynamo|Big-dynamo]] ([[User talk:Big-dynamo|talk]]) 15:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::I can't see where the article says the things you claim. Please quote. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 16:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::: The opening section of the page literally says the origin of castles lay in the disintegration that took place in the late Carolingian empire which led to the rise in feudal lords. "European-style castles originated in the 9th and 10th centuries, after the fall of the Carolingian Empire resulted in its territory being divided among individual lords and princes. These nobles built castles to control the area immediately surrounding them and the castles were both offensive and defensive structures: they provided a base from which raids could be launched as well as offered protection from enemies." Yet there is no citation nor example of any kind from the Carolingian or post Carolingian kingdoms that show this evolution of Castle type structures. Not to mention, later it goes on to state that the defining characteristic of a castle is being a residence of a noble or lord, but again, Carolingian palaces were based on the earlier Roman basilica, palatial or villa architecture and not fortified. So if there are scholars and experts that supposedly are the source of this claim, then where are the citations and examples? Because again, the earliest examples for the evolution of this kind of structure are not in Northern France and Germany, but in Spain. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Big-dynamo|Big-dynamo]] ([[User talk:Big-dynamo#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Big-dynamo|contribs]]) 11:01, 9 February 2024 (UTC)</small>
:::::::I believe that the citations you are looking can be found in [[Castle#Origins (9th and 10th centuries)]] where more detail is given. The lead is a summary of the main body of the article, using necessarily broad strokes. The origin of castles is a complex topic with lots of uncertainty, and even the addition detail in the body doesn't address it in full. It could be a standalone article, but I'm not sure how much appetite there is for that (I certainly don't have time!). [[User:Richard Nevell|Richard Nevell]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell|talk]]) 22:08, 12 February 2024 (UTC)


== Castles outside Europe? ==
:That's not a reliable source, please read [[WP:RS]]. And in any case [[Castel Sant'Angelo]] is a little bit older than Gormaz Castle. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 16:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::Nev1, it is a reliable source and I can give tons of others plus the ones I am provideing below. Again, this smacks of the cultural bias factor.
::Here are additional links:
::http://www.spaintravelguide.com/6-coolest-castles-in-spain.html
::http://www.whatspain.com/spain-castles.html


This article is flawed because it is Euro-centric. It hardly mentions castles outside Europe. But there are castles everywhere: in the Middle East, Japan, China, Iran, India and in many other places and cultures. The article even lacks images of such castles. There are a few links to non-European castles in the "See also"-section, but this is not enough to justify that this article be called just "Castle". Either the name should be changed to "Castle (Europe)" or the article should at least dedicate a paragraph to castles in other continents, eg. as an introduction to other, more detailed articles. [[User:Loranchet|Loranchet]] ([[User talk:Loranchet|talk]]) 20:31, 10 September 2023 (UTC)<br>
:Now watch this folks. After Nev1 looks at my reliable links, he'll come up with the excuse that the links don't count because I provided them on a friday. Or, he'll say that the webpage to the links is the wrong color. Nev1 is one funny american! Lol.
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 08:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
As a starter, I added a picture of Himeji, one of the most famous non-European castles.[[User:Loranchet|Loranchet]] ([[User talk:Loranchet|talk]]) 20:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
:To repeat myself from last year:
::There are endless discussions in the 6 archives, and the FAC, over the definition. Don't let's go there again - it's not really an "interesting issue", especially 5th time around. The article is written to cover a particular definition and scope, but of course other definitions exist. An article that tried to cover all of them would be a sprawling mess. It was decided years ago that people searching for "castle" were most likely to want European medieval castles etc, and this seems still correct to me. If people want [[Japanese castle]]s, [[Celtic hillfort]]s and so on, they will most likely use other search terms. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


== Change of the first image ==
Actually Sant Angelo in Rome is ALOT older, probably 300 years older than Gormaz, and its not even in Northern Europe. Its in Italy, again. [[User:CJ DUB|CJ DUB]] ([[User talk:CJ DUB|talk]]) 21:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:Not true! Read the facts. And italians haven't been good builders in castles. Heard of the tower of pisa? Lol. Again, here are more links:
http://www.spaintravelguide.com/6-coolest-castles-in-spain.html
http://www.whatspain.com/spain-castles.html
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 08:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
::FYI, the [[Tower of Pisa]] (incredibly for someone as biased and US-centric as myself, I have heard of it) isn't a castle. Funnily enough, it's a bell tower. And where's your source that the Italians weren't good castle builders? Do you want to bring up any other irrelevant structures? How about the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]]? [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 15:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
:::FYI, If the italians were good castle builders, they wouldn't have been conquered and sacked by so many invaders, like the arabs. If you want to bring up the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]], go right ahead. But I doubt you'll go far since Egyptian pyramids are not castles. This tells me how mush you know about castles. You lost all credibility.
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 17:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


Hello, would anybody mind if the first image would be changed to:
:I was hoping that Ingrid4hubby would click on the link and see for herself as she thinks there's discrimination going on here, but yeah :-) [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 21:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
[[File:Burg von Burghausen.jpg|thumb|300px|center| Dating back to the early 11th century, [[Burghausen Castle]], [[Germany]], is one of the most distinctive castles in [[Europe]]. It is the longest castle complex in the [[world]] (1051 m), confirmed by the [[Guinness World Record]] company, and the third largest.]]
::I was hoping that Nev1 would click on the links I provided and see for himself that his thinking seems biased. Again, this comes from the I-love-america-and-if-don't-like-it-then-leave-it superiority. Well, I'm happy that rome is falling slowly but surely.
The image of [[Burghausen Castle]] seems to be a bit more spectacular than the one of Segovia, also because of the nice houses that can also be seen. Burghausen Castle is 100 years older and furthermore it is the longest castle in the world (Guinness world record), as well as the third-largest.
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 08:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Other possible images would be:
:::Those links fall spectacularly short of [[WP:RS]], which I strongly suggest you read. Allexperts.com is written by volunteers and, despite its name, "[http://www.allexperts.com/central/disclaimer.htm Allexperts has not undertaken to verify the credentials or abilities of any of our volunteers]". The other two websites are travel guides, and I doubt their authors are experts on castles, Spanish or otherwise. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 15:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
[[File:Burg von Burghausen zur blauen Stunde.jpg|thumb|300px|center]]
::::Those links are fully supported and will be used as reference for the article. But, I will provide more links just for you, Nev1, since you're american biasness is creeping up again and not believing that contributions outside the american experience have been made.
[[File:Burghausen, Burg und Denkmalensemble Altstadt.jpg|thumb|300px|center]] [[User:Michi9696|Michi9696]] ([[User talk:Michi9696|talk]]) 20:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
::::And Nev1, why don't you just stop hating? Why can't you accept other people's contributions to the world? Is it because you were brought up thinking that only americans can build anything? There's life outside of america, you know. I think you need to love yourself and others more. Discrimination is on the way out, so stop hating and embrace other people's contributions.
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 17:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


:It's worth pondering, though I think some consideration needs to go into the choice. What does an image of Burghausen convey that other images do not currently? Bodiam matches the popular idea of what a castle is. The Alcazar of Segovia gives a different landscape setting, and a different scale (much as Burghausen does, so in that sense the two are interchangeable). The Alcazar contains influences of Islamic architecture - which granted may not be obvious from the thumbnail or caption.
The whole diatribe a week ago was over "northern western euro-centrism" in the article when there are excellent examples from Spain, Italy, Mexico and Poland in the article, with pix. lol. 03:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
:I would also recommend not using Guinness World Record as a source. Being the longest castle is not especially noteworthy, and I would look for something more authoritative to confirm. [[User:Richard Nevell|Richard Nevell]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell|talk]]) 21:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
:Correction, the diatribe was about american-centricism, not northern european-centricism.
::Thank you for replying. I think the Segovia image just is not thaaaat special and does not evoke an "oh my god how beautiful is that" feeling. Although the Burghausen image might not either, it's just more likely to evoke that feeling when looking at it, i believe. The islamic influences are indeed not visible at least on this specific picture, while the Burghausen image would add the following value to the article: i think more people would click on the article if the Burghausen image were the one that appears as preview. While the image retains the castle as its centerpiece, there are also nice little houses visible on it, and therefore, although the article is about castles, it's just nicer to look at. It is very likely that it is the longest existing castle, and one of the largest, while the Segovia one seems to be more random and not that special. The Segovia castle might be special for Spain, but it looks like a random castle in Central Europe. The first image could indeed also show a random castle as example, but overall i think that it would be nicer to show a more stunning example of a castle as first impression. It's unbelievable how long this castle stretches along the mountain it sits on. The castle could also be included as panoramic image somewhere else in the article.
:In this discussion page, there are users who couldn't contribute more examples of castles because the discriminatory/bias american powers that be prevent these contributions from being published. That's the american way.
::[[File:Burghausen bei Nacht.jpg|center|500px|thumb]]
[[User:Ingrid4hubby|Ingrid4hubby]] ([[User talk:Ingrid4hubby|talk]]) 08:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
::[[File:Burghausen - nördl. Bereich der Burg.JPG|center|500px|thumb]]
::[[File:BurgHsn panoBurgOsten.jpg|center|500px|thumb]]
::[[File:Burg zu Burghausen 04.jpg|center|500px|thumb]]
::[[File:Panoramaburghausen wiki.jpg|center|500px|thumb]] [[User:Michi9696|Michi9696]] ([[User talk:Michi9696|talk]]) 22:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
*Yes, they would! I don't much like the Segovia pic, because much of the castle (which I've been over) is a 19th-century "restoration". I think Burghausen is rather too large, and perhaps also partly post-medieval. Its length is actually a disadvantage here - it is rather more a "citadel" than a typical castle. We should ''on no account'' have a night-time image; the fact you can suggest one destroys your credibility with me, I'm afraid. There have been lengthy previous discussions on this, and there are other possibilities. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 02:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*:I don't see the problem here. Castle Burghausen is neither a fake restoration like you said Segovia is, because it hasn't ever been destroyed. Nor does a night-time picture have to be used, nor is it a citadel. The very name Burghausen itself means "Castlehouses". Some of the pictures i suggested do not show the castle in its entire length, but they show a castle how most people would expect a typical castle to look like. All in all, if we compare the two images, the Segovia one seems to be more boring and uninteresting. And actually, just as an image, the second one looks even better but it's not so much focused on the castle. And if not as first image, i still would like to include a panoramic image of the castle, just because of its uniqueness.
*:[[File:Burg von Burghausen.jpg|thumb|300px|center]]
*:[[File:Burghausen, Burg und Denkmalensemble Altstadt.jpg|thumb|300px|center]]
*:[[File:Panorámica Otoño Alcázar de Segovia.jpg|thumb|300px|center]] [[User:Michi9696|Michi9696]] ([[User talk:Michi9696|talk]]) 03:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*::Essentially, I think it's too big to take in easily in a small WP photo. I must say, few of the windows look at all medieval, so I'd imagine there's been a good deal of extending and/or rebuilding, probably mostly in the Renaissance. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 04:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::Renaissance would still be older than 19th century and to me the castle is perfectly visible on the pictures. So the picture would at least be a step forward. And concerning fake 19th century castles, there are also more stunning examples than Segovia, like [[Hohenzollern Castle]].
*:::[[File:Burg Hohenzollern ak.jpg|thumb|300px|center]] [[User:Michi9696|Michi9696]] ([[User talk:Michi9696|talk]]) 04:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
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Latest revision as of 13:03, 21 November 2024

Featured articleCastle is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 24, 2010, and on July 3, 2017.
Article milestones
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Current status: Featured article


The ongoing squabble about what a "Castle" is

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Once again, the subject of the article has been flagged. Yes there are things other than the subject structures that are called castles. But the subject of the article remains the English-language fortified-residence castle. I am sure that in languages not English, the word that is often translated to "Castle" in English may well need to refer to a very different set of structures. "Castle" is an English word that refers to (haha) castles. It also can simply refer to any magnificent/old mansion. But the subject of the article remains. I think if there is adequate interest, it might be that we need articles like (I don't think we do but...) "Castle (mansion)", "Castle (Japan)" or some such. But in English language literature, castle immediately invokes a crenelated, often moated, fortified residence. Unless there is support for leaving them in, I will remove the 2 "citation needed" items when I pass back through in weeks/months.Shajure (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article about the structure we call House in English. It includes examples of the variation in construction materials and form, and there are examples from Europe, North America, East Asia, and other parts of the world. The subject is not limited to the English-speaker's mental and cultural image of a "house". It includes all structures, no matter what they are called in the language(s) of the home cultures, that fulfill the criteria of the definition of the English word "house". The word "house" is not a proper noun, so it is not restricted to one specific building. The generalized, inclusive article House does not preclude the need for more detailed or specialized articles on structures such as mobile home, townhouse, mansion, and other structures that may be identified as, or fall within the parameters, of a house; nor does it necessitate articles on houses in each culture and language, because in many cultures, the word for "house" still denotes a permanent structure with four walls and a roof, intended as a residence, and so most such articles would become redundant. All of this applies to the term castle. - Boneyard90 (talk) 19:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
These comments do not seem to be relevant to translation errors. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are French expressions like "maison forte", and stronger "chateau fort", to emphasize a really permanent structure, appropriate to live in and appropriate to be defended by the inhabitants. German expression "Festes Haus" for a smaller castle, a fortified house easy to defend, means the same. Similar expressions are "Turmhof" and "Turmhaus" ("tower (farm) yard" / "tower house") or "Weiher Haus" ("house in a pond"). Castles had been built in response to challenges and threats, as well as in accordance to military necessities, representative purposes and adminstrative tasks. A lot of castles had been remodelled as circumstances changed and time went by: For example, a Norman motte-and-baily style castle originally had been appropriate for a smaller number of inhabitants, but could easily been expanded over the decades and centuries. Some old motte style castles have been expanded to impressive sizes continously until today, as shows Windsor Castle. 2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Age of Castles in Britain

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Castles had been existing in Britain, as well as in almost all other European regions, at least since early Celtic times. However, as late as end of 11th century, the motte style castles came to Britain due to an invasion by William the Bastard, a self styled "Norman" warrior and as "William the Conqueror" new "king of England". So any statement that there had been no castles in Britain before 1066 are mere nonsense. Please correct this.2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 11:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article does not claim there were no castles in Britain before 1066. Instead it notes, with reference to D. J. Cathcart King (1998, pp. 32-43), that castles were introduced to England shortly before 1066. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! However, as ancient Britain had been part of the Celtic culture, there had been castles way before. As "castle" is derived from Latin and the Romans had conquerred Celtic Europe, including what became England in later centuries, David James Cathcart King either must have been ignoring Latin sources or he misunderstood what he found. Of course, specific motte style castles had only become predominant in England after 1066, however there had been an enormous amount of castles built n other styles/ according to other concepts before. A castle always had been built for specific needs and due to specific challenges. For example, king Alfred the Great did build castles, and so did his noble men, according to the threats and fortification necessities of their time. Genereally speaking, in Europe, building fortifications might have started as soon as at the end of Neolithicum/ Younger Stone Age - and Britain had already been in close contact with Central Europe in this time.
I have visitied a lot of castles so far, and in fact, a lot of castles are way older than the structures you see today. There has been quite a lot of research on this: E. g. archeologist Carl Schuchhardt had dedicated his whole life to do scientific research on castles. He had been one of Europe's best experts during his time. However, in Britain some of the research work done by people on the continent might have been ignored? 2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 20:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's an interesting issue which comes down to how castles are defined - where is the line drawn between what is a castle and what isn't?
Castle studies in England, Wales, and Scotland draws a distinction between castles and other types of fortifications. The burhs built by Alfred do have some relation to castles - indeed some later had castles built within them - but are typically treated as separate entities in the literature and have been since the early 20th century (summarised briefly in "The Origins of the Castle in England the Institute's Research Project"). Hillforts again are treated separately.
While the term castle is derived from Latin, I don't think that's a particular problem. Words change meaning over time through different usage and different context. The Latin derivation isn't coincidental of course. The medieval elite would often deliberately co-opt the Roman past, so blurring the line between castle and Roman fort isn't accidental. Castles were established within or just on the edges of Roman forts at Pevensey, Portchester, Chester, and Leicester.
I'm not familiar with Schuchhardt's work, though I see his 1931 book, Die Burg im Wandel der Weltgeschichte, is available online. I am unfortunately entirely reliant on Google Translate to work with German sources. It looks like an interesting read!
Transfer of ideas across languages can be much slower than amongst researchers with a shared language. There are at least regular conferences such Chateau Gaillard are an important forum for exchanging ideas. The bi-annual publication regularly contains papers in French, English, and German (I think I've seen other languages as well), and Burgen und Schlösser published by the German Castles Institute is primarily German-language but has included articles in English. It is worth noting that "castle scholarship has, with rare exceptions, been pursued within the confines of particular countries and regions. Broader geographical approaches are neglected". The same source notes that burhs weren't always large communal fortifications, an aspect which set them largely outside the somewhat porous definition of a castle, so there may be scope for more integration of burhs into discussion of castles. At this stage, I think we'd need sources which contextualise the historiography to guide the content of the article should such a change be made. Richard Nevell (talk) 10:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are endless discussions in the 6 archives, and the FAC, over the definition. Don't let's go there again - it's not really an "interesting issue", especially 5th time around. The article is written to cover a particular definition and scope, but of course other definitions exist. An article that tried to cover all of them would be a sprawling mess. It was decided years ago that people searching for "castle" were most likely to want European medieval castles etc, and this seems still correct to me. If people want Japanese castles, Celtic hillforts and so on, they will most likely use other search terms. Johnbod (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with the article is that it implies that 1) Romans only built castellum in Britain or Germany, when they didn't. 2) That the Calingians were responsible for evolving the style of earlier Roman castellum into castles when they weren't. 3) That all aspects of castle architecture therefore come from 1 and 2 which all completely false.
First, the Romans built castellum all over Europe, the Levant and North Africa and therefore those structures and the terms used to describe them influenced more than just the English language. So to argue that what makes a "castle" limited to the history of the English language is a nonsensical, non historic argument. For example, in Spain, the word castillo also exists as a derivation of the Roman Castel and also applies to similar structures. And many early Islamic and Christian castles were built on top of older Roman or Visigothic ruins.
Which then leads to the second point that the Carolingians were not the main social organization and culture responsible for first building castles in Europe. As there are no Carolingian castles, since most of them are simply palaces based on old Roman style Basilicas and Villas. Again, the actual earliest history of the use of vassals and nobles to defend various regions with their own fortified residences are found in Spain, from Muslims and then Christians.
Thirdly the idea that these combinations of battlements, curtain walls, terrain and geography as part of castle architecture originated with the Carolingians based on Roman precedents is also false. Again, both Christians and Muslims in Spain have been using terrain and various ancient traditions of architecture including earlier Roman works to build Castles long before anything anywhere else in Europe. This includes castles on strategic terrain, such as hilltops and spurs, castles near rivers and so forth.
Suffice to say, if this is simply an issue of language and distinguishing the history and derivation of the English term "castle" then that is one thing. But to argue that this language derivation represents the complete history and extent of buildings in Europe with features called "castles" in English is simply dishonest.
Oldest and Largest castle in Europe:
Castle_of_Gormaz
Note that the wiki claims that Château de Doué-la-Fontaine is the oldest when there is nothing remaining that shows anything like what is being called a castle based on language or architecture.
Château de Doué-la-Fontaine
Hilltop Castle Spain based on earlier Roman and Celtiberian forts:
Xativa_Castle
Spanish Christian Castle:
Peñafiel_Castle
Another old Spanish Castle based on Roman and Muslim structures:
Castle_of_Almodóvar_del_Río Big-dynamo (talk) 15:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see where the article says the things you claim. Please quote. Johnbod (talk) 16:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The opening section of the page literally says the origin of castles lay in the disintegration that took place in the late Carolingian empire which led to the rise in feudal lords. "European-style castles originated in the 9th and 10th centuries, after the fall of the Carolingian Empire resulted in its territory being divided among individual lords and princes. These nobles built castles to control the area immediately surrounding them and the castles were both offensive and defensive structures: they provided a base from which raids could be launched as well as offered protection from enemies." Yet there is no citation nor example of any kind from the Carolingian or post Carolingian kingdoms that show this evolution of Castle type structures. Not to mention, later it goes on to state that the defining characteristic of a castle is being a residence of a noble or lord, but again, Carolingian palaces were based on the earlier Roman basilica, palatial or villa architecture and not fortified. So if there are scholars and experts that supposedly are the source of this claim, then where are the citations and examples? Because again, the earliest examples for the evolution of this kind of structure are not in Northern France and Germany, but in Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Big-dynamo (talkcontribs) 11:01, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the citations you are looking can be found in Castle#Origins (9th and 10th centuries) where more detail is given. The lead is a summary of the main body of the article, using necessarily broad strokes. The origin of castles is a complex topic with lots of uncertainty, and even the addition detail in the body doesn't address it in full. It could be a standalone article, but I'm not sure how much appetite there is for that (I certainly don't have time!). Richard Nevell (talk) 22:08, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Castles outside Europe?

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This article is flawed because it is Euro-centric. It hardly mentions castles outside Europe. But there are castles everywhere: in the Middle East, Japan, China, Iran, India and in many other places and cultures. The article even lacks images of such castles. There are a few links to non-European castles in the "See also"-section, but this is not enough to justify that this article be called just "Castle". Either the name should be changed to "Castle (Europe)" or the article should at least dedicate a paragraph to castles in other continents, eg. as an introduction to other, more detailed articles. Loranchet (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a starter, I added a picture of Himeji, one of the most famous non-European castles.Loranchet (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To repeat myself from last year:
There are endless discussions in the 6 archives, and the FAC, over the definition. Don't let's go there again - it's not really an "interesting issue", especially 5th time around. The article is written to cover a particular definition and scope, but of course other definitions exist. An article that tried to cover all of them would be a sprawling mess. It was decided years ago that people searching for "castle" were most likely to want European medieval castles etc, and this seems still correct to me. If people want Japanese castles, Celtic hillforts and so on, they will most likely use other search terms. Johnbod (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Change of the first image

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Hello, would anybody mind if the first image would be changed to:

Dating back to the early 11th century, Burghausen Castle, Germany, is one of the most distinctive castles in Europe. It is the longest castle complex in the world (1051 m), confirmed by the Guinness World Record company, and the third largest.

The image of Burghausen Castle seems to be a bit more spectacular than the one of Segovia, also because of the nice houses that can also be seen. Burghausen Castle is 100 years older and furthermore it is the longest castle in the world (Guinness world record), as well as the third-largest. Other possible images would be:

Michi9696 (talk) 20:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth pondering, though I think some consideration needs to go into the choice. What does an image of Burghausen convey that other images do not currently? Bodiam matches the popular idea of what a castle is. The Alcazar of Segovia gives a different landscape setting, and a different scale (much as Burghausen does, so in that sense the two are interchangeable). The Alcazar contains influences of Islamic architecture - which granted may not be obvious from the thumbnail or caption.
I would also recommend not using Guinness World Record as a source. Being the longest castle is not especially noteworthy, and I would look for something more authoritative to confirm. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for replying. I think the Segovia image just is not thaaaat special and does not evoke an "oh my god how beautiful is that" feeling. Although the Burghausen image might not either, it's just more likely to evoke that feeling when looking at it, i believe. The islamic influences are indeed not visible at least on this specific picture, while the Burghausen image would add the following value to the article: i think more people would click on the article if the Burghausen image were the one that appears as preview. While the image retains the castle as its centerpiece, there are also nice little houses visible on it, and therefore, although the article is about castles, it's just nicer to look at. It is very likely that it is the longest existing castle, and one of the largest, while the Segovia one seems to be more random and not that special. The Segovia castle might be special for Spain, but it looks like a random castle in Central Europe. The first image could indeed also show a random castle as example, but overall i think that it would be nicer to show a more stunning example of a castle as first impression. It's unbelievable how long this castle stretches along the mountain it sits on. The castle could also be included as panoramic image somewhere else in the article.
Michi9696 (talk) 22:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, they would! I don't much like the Segovia pic, because much of the castle (which I've been over) is a 19th-century "restoration". I think Burghausen is rather too large, and perhaps also partly post-medieval. Its length is actually a disadvantage here - it is rather more a "citadel" than a typical castle. We should on no account have a night-time image; the fact you can suggest one destroys your credibility with me, I'm afraid. There have been lengthy previous discussions on this, and there are other possibilities. Johnbod (talk) 02:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see the problem here. Castle Burghausen is neither a fake restoration like you said Segovia is, because it hasn't ever been destroyed. Nor does a night-time picture have to be used, nor is it a citadel. The very name Burghausen itself means "Castlehouses". Some of the pictures i suggested do not show the castle in its entire length, but they show a castle how most people would expect a typical castle to look like. All in all, if we compare the two images, the Segovia one seems to be more boring and uninteresting. And actually, just as an image, the second one looks even better but it's not so much focused on the castle. And if not as first image, i still would like to include a panoramic image of the castle, just because of its uniqueness.
    Michi9696 (talk) 03:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Essentially, I think it's too big to take in easily in a small WP photo. I must say, few of the windows look at all medieval, so I'd imagine there's been a good deal of extending and/or rebuilding, probably mostly in the Renaissance. Johnbod (talk) 04:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Renaissance would still be older than 19th century and to me the castle is perfectly visible on the pictures. So the picture would at least be a step forward. And concerning fake 19th century castles, there are also more stunning examples than Segovia, like Hohenzollern Castle.
    Michi9696 (talk) 04:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Musha-gaeshi has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 21 § Musha-gaeshi until a consensus is reached. cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 12:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]