Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User:BrandtM113 WP:LAME edit war, no attempts at discussion, frequent warnings

On David Madden (executive), there is a red link for Michael Thorn, a president of Fox, and Sarah Barnett, a president of AMC Networks. User:BrandtM113 has, five times in the last 3 years, come to the page to remove the red links. [1] He has never left an edit summary, so I have no explanation for this unusual fixation.

In March 2022 I sent a message to BrandtM113 [2] telling him about WP:REDLINK and how red links are useful in helping editors find gaps in knowledge, and stopping new pages from being orphaned from birth. With the complete lack of edit summaries, I don't know if he thinks Thorn and Barnett should never have a Wikipedia article, which is quite the claim.

Repeating the same edit with no summaries, no talk page discussion, is disruption even if it is over several years. I think a WP:CIR block may be useful. His talk page has more notices than I care to count for removing content without a summary, adding content without a source, repeated disruptive edits (doing the same edit, again) [3], outright vandalism [4]. This user has had more than enough warnings and it's literally like talking to a brick wall with the lack of edit summaries or discussions. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocked for 6 months. Let's see if that is long enough time to get their attention. Oz\^InterAct 19:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, 99.7% of this editor's 6,297 edits are to main space, they have made few edits to Talk space and fewer to User talk space. They don't often have an edit summary but they are very active and all of the talk page warnings are more than a year old so perhaps they have taken the advice on board. I was hoping that they would resond here but now they are blocked as I was writing this. I hope they file an unblock request and start communicating. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Today, the user made the exact same edit that was made in 2021, 2022 and 2023, after having being told in 2022 about the exact Wikipedia policy that made that edit disruptive. I don't call that taking advice on board. If there is some crucial reason to remove those red links on the David Madden page, it should have been said in an edit summary or on the talk page. If a kid on my street played knock-and-run on my door once a year for four years, I'd still consider that as annoying as doing it once a day for four days. Unknown Temptation (talk) 19:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

The user did not edit between 22 October 2023 and 24 October 2024, after two warnings in September 2023. That's a year of not editing, rather than a year of constructive editing. Unknown Temptation (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And I don't understand why you let this little error get so under your skin that you brought this to ANI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Because it's repeatedly making the same edit, with no edit summary and no attempt of discussion, after being told about the relevant policies? Should I do the same on a page you watch? I don't see why the fact that the user doesn't do talk page edits or uses edit summaries is a get-out-of-jail card, to me it looks quite the opposite. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Some people take Wikibreaks. I did myself for six months in 2009. I'm at a loss of what could be construed as sinister about that. Ravenswing 15:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I never said it was sinister, I just said it's not an example of one year of constructive editing if there were no edits for that year. I was replying to Liz saying the user had not been warned for a year. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Adding some formatting to an infobox that the relevant wikiproject dislikes is not "outright vandalism". Espresso Addict (talk) 22:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

This still seems like an excessive sanction for removing a few redlinks and not using talk pages. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:51, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Oz, given this editor's neglect of talk page edits, it is unlikely that they will even know they can file an unblock request. They did post a meager response on their user talk page. Any chance this 6 month block could be reduced? Just thought I'd put in a pitch for mercy for what was really a minor edit infraction. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oz, just pinging you again, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Undisclosed paid editing

• RayanTarraf (talk · contribs)

Never disclosed their paid editing.

According to User:DubaiScripter: Glimpse Digital Agency is a Marketing, Digital Marketing and design production studio set up in Dubai in 2017 by Lebanese Rayan Tarraf.[5][6] Hypnôs (talk) 10:47, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I note that this user has not edited since March this year, and has only made three edits, none to mainspace, since 2017. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

So? DubaiScripter (talk) 11:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

So, as originally worded as a complaint against RayanTarraf (talk · contribs), this report cannot be said to be of an urgent incident or a chronic, intractable behavioural problem, as required for this noticeboard. It has, however, broadened its scope since then. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

And what do you mean paid editing? Who paid who? DubaiScripter (talk) 11:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You disclosed in 2017 that you were paid to edit.[7]

If you are unaware of this, are there other people that have had access to your account? Hypnôs (talk) 11:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Who is getting paid for editing? Rayan Taraff or Dubai Scripter? Do you have any diffs of problematic content that they have added to articles? Isaidnoway (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Isaidnoway I just noticed a big discussion on social channels going around the article of Baalbek in Lebanon. Apparently, Some editors are using Wikipedia for political benefits in order to push war agenda. Which is terrible of course. I went straight to the article in order to see what is happening and found that many referenced articles have actually no backing or reliable sources. Two minutes after requesting access to edit, I received the notification of Hypnos questioning my integrity which makes me think that what is being said online is actually true. DubaiScripter (talk) 11:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

incase you want to see what I'm talking about https://www.instagram.com/khalilshreateh/reel/DB1rDyqNjCc/ DubaiScripter (talk) 11:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

DubaiScripter disclosed that they were paid by RayanTarraf's company to edit[8], and have created the page Rayan Tarraf three times. But since they seem to be unaware of this, the account is possibly used by someone else now.

Regarding Rayan Taraff, I can't go into details due to WP:OUTING, but the pages they created are either related to them or have a promotional tone.[9]

Since joining the Mohammad & Obaid AlMulla Group in 2017, Beshara has played a key role in its growth and success.

American Hospital Dubai, under Beshara's guidance, has achieved significant healthcare innovations, particularly in the field of robotics and artificial intelligence. Hypnôs (talk) 11:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you are assuming too much. Not related, Nor paid. These pages were my attempts at learning on how to create new articles for known companies and figures that are not already on Wikipedia which I obviously failed to do but that certainly doesn't mean I'm paid and the section you quoted about American Hospital CEO is depicted directly from their articles which you can find online. And if you are talking about the option where you choose if you were paid or not for an article that was also a failed try when i was trying to find my way around understanding how this works. So again, no I never got paid nor do I know these people in person.

Now the real question is... Why is @Hypnôs very insistent on diverting from the original issue which is using Wikipedia for Political gain? DubaiScripter (talk) 13:02, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

DubaiScripter, you have stated that you are indeed a paid editor, paid by Glimpse Digital Agency. --Yamla (talk) 13:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, as I have mentioned in my previous reply. I had chosen that option in one of my attempts to understand why the article is being rejected but I can confirm that was by mistake. not really paid by anyone. DubaiScripter (talk) 13:15, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

DubaiScripter, please be exactly specific. What exactly is your relationship to Rayan Tarraf and to Glimpse Digital Agency? --Yamla (talk) 13:27, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

No relationship. This guy made a lecture once were I worked and he inspired me to dig in Wikipedia and see how it works. So I kept trying to write an article about him or his company in order to learn. More like a test subject.

Even though there was enough articles to support the guy i never managed to get it published. I even tried choosing the option were it says I was paid or even try to create a link to the person or his company but also didn't work.

anyways I gave up on my Wikipedia skills. Anything else you would like to know? because the focus here should be the Political involvement of some admins.

Thanks DubaiScripter (talk) 12:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Your first time creating an article on him was before 19 February 2017.[10]

On 6 November 2017 he made an edit to your user page.[11]

If the only relation to him was this one time lecture that inspired to to make an article about him, how did he know your user name and why did he make an edit to your user page months later? Hypnôs (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, please watch this video https://www.instagram.com/khalilshreateh/reel/DB1rDyqNjCc/ which explains exactly why @Hypnôs is doing this. He is plainly mentioned in there. DubaiScripter (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You need to stop this - I suggest you read the contentious topic notification on your talk page. Simonm223 (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

My last message: Whoever is reading from the esteemed and amazing non-biased Admins... That are obviously more experienced and much better than me. Please check the this issue and don't let misinformation run loose on Wikipedia. https://www.tiktok.com/@zeez870/video/7435060973855116562?q=baalbek%20wikipedia&t=1733319093938 DubaiScripter (talk) 13:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

LMFAO I watched 45 seconds of buildup to investigate the question of why someone was nefariously and erroneously calling Baalbek a Hezbollah stronghold on Wikipedia just to find out that it’s because Reuters, VoA, and a book on Hezbollah all say so? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:22, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, @Hypnôs I've noticed that in the talk page your name is mentioned 27 times and that in trying to block the removal of exactly what I came to check. All, I can say is that this issue is blowing up on social channels and it's only reflecting badly on Wikipedia Admins and Wikipedia as a reliable source. I also, noticed that you are only interested in historical pages that are related to the Jewish community which makes me believe that you are biased but again it that's my assumption. I could be wrong DubaiScripter (talk) 13:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

... "this issue is blowing up on social channels"? Really? How about providing us some links to those? You wouldn't happen to be involved in pushing that, would you? Ravenswing 15:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Not pushing anything... I saw this video yesterday broadcasted on TV https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSjvepY85/ and it seems that there was a discussion panel at the university where I teach talking about how Wikipedia is being used for political reasons and everyone was talking about this guy @Hypnôs on how he is purposely adding fake details to the Baalbek article.

Then I noticed that so many people are reposting the video or duetting it on both TikTok and Instagram. This original link alone has 81K views.

Came in to check it out and unfortunately it was true a fake narrative is being added on to that article. Everyone can see it. And now I even have doubts based on your tone @Ravenswing that you are either the same person or work together.

I don't want to get involved in all this political nonsense but all I can say is that whoever you guys work for... I don't really care but you are only giving Wikipedia a bad name. People will lose trust in this platform and because of what you are doing, you will end up destroying a very unique heritage sight that has nothing to do with your wars.

No need to answer. I'm out. DubaiScripter (talk) 12:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

OK I think you really need to understand that if you don't cease making personal attacks against Wikipedia editors you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Your comportment, so far, indicates you are not interested in collaboratively building an encyclopedia as you seem to have joined to act upon a specific grievance against a specific editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a prime example of Ravenswing's Third Law cropping up here: "The vehemence (and repetitiveness) with which an editor states that those who oppose his actions/edits/POV can only have sinister motives for doing so is in inverse proportion to the editor's conformity to (a) relevant Wikipedia policies or guidelines; and/or (b) his articlespace edit count." If you really do believe that any editor who fails to agree with you is part of some conspiracy against you, then I agree with Simonm223; you are not fit to edit Wikipedia. Ravenswing 16:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this user is clearly WP:NOTHERE. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• More personal attacks by DubaiScripter: Special:Diff/1261116064 The editors of this age are of Israeli origins or Israeli backed. Considering the current ongoing war it looks like the moderators on here are politically motivated and it looks as if Wikipedia is supporting that. In combination with the above I also, noticed that you are only interested in historical pages that are related to the Jewish community which makes me believe that you are biased but again it that's my assumption. I could be wrong I believe DubaiScripter is prejudging people, in particular conflating interest in Jewish topics to being biased about Israel. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:02, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Given a level 3 AGF warning. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Disruption at Storrs, Connecticut by Jonathanhusky

For several months several editors have been claiming Storrs, Connecticut should be Storrs-Mansfield, Connecticut. It was at ANI several months ago - see [12], which led to the creation of an RfC.

The RfC is clearly heading for an oppose, but it has been heavily bludgeoned by Jonathanhusky. For some reason, a merge discussion was initiated part of the way through the RfC - the whole thing is a bit of a mess.

I'm coming here now since today I noticed Jonathanhusky had updated the article in a way that was clearly unsupported by the RfC and marked it as minor: [13] After I reverted - and I admit I did revert a bit too much because there were a series of edits, so I just picked the last table version - Jonathanhusky accused me of misusing the tools: [14] Finally, the edit that got me here, which is something I've never seen before - Jonathanhusky marked several strong opposers, including Mathglot, JamesMLane, and R0paire-wiki as "actually supports" in the RfC, while marking the edit as minor, and without signing the comments: [15]

This behaviour, especially the bludgeoning and that last edit, is clearly disruptive/WP:OWNership behaviour and there needs to be at the very least a topic ban if not an outright block. SportingFlyer T·C 05:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on the merits of this filing, but it should be noted that Jonathan also filed for a third opinion regarding this article. I procedurally declined that filing since there were clearly more than two editors involved in the matter already. I don't even know that this is particularly relevant to this ANI filing, but since it crossed my watchlist and since Jonathan is being accused of trying to bludgeon the matter, I figured I should at least note it. DonIago (talk) 05:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

That last pretty much counts as "editing another editor's comments" doesn't it? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I reverted their edit where they "interpreted" other editors' "votes" as the opposite of what they said. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

...have been claiming...

It is important to note that this statement is false - the official name of the community is "Storrs-Mansfield" and "Storrs" is only an informal, unofficial version. This has been verified and cited in the talk page discussion - the RFC is and was always started to determine the best way to respect the inclusion of the "common name" alongside the official one foremostly. Although a page name change (or "page move") was a prior topic, the RFC nor the actual discussion was at any point regarding that.

The RfC is clearly heading for an oppose, but it has been heavily bludgeoned by Jonathanhusky.

...I noticed Jonathanhusky had updated the article in a way that was clearly unsupported by the RfC...

Jonathanhusky marked several strong opposers...as "actually supports" in the RfC...

It is not "bludgeoning" to reply to one's comment nor is it disruptive to respond to individual points.

As can be seen by reading the actual editors' comments referenced, and then furtherly explained in a discussion comment, they actually did support the proposed edits. The suggested text follows the established and accepted Wikipedia style.

This behaviour, especially the bludgeoning and that last edit, is clearly disruptive/WP:OWNership behaviour...

Incorrect. When users publish multifaceted comments it is not inappropriate to respond to those facets with individual respect toward their points. As a furtherer of the discussion, I am allowed to respond to new evidence, theories and ideas, and able to (as any other user) explain why I do or don't agree with a comment or the reasoning presented, or asked clarifying questions. In fact, I have tried referencing verified reliable sources and relevant Wikipedia policies to figure out what applies and what doesn't. Not all participants did, and as well, others either repeated storied or irrelevant explanations (perhaps they did not know better) or refused to consider the valid points presented in a reply.

I understand that you have initiated this process, but, this has to be looked at from the perspective of the unanswered questions regarding how to properly and respectfully write about this community (and others like it) on Wikipedia. Jonathanhusky (talk) 06:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you interpret their comments/explanations as "they actually did support". Editing other editors' comments in a discussion, especially changing their explict, bolded !votes, is a bright line. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:59, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No portion of the editors' original comments were actually removed. This fact needs to be respected.

What I did was, solely, ensure that readers knew the honest view of the editors' responses. You say that these were so-called "votes" - in a discussion which is exclusively a discussion, not a call for "votes" - which say "opposed" but their explanations say they don't really oppose the point.

Then other editors see just the "opposed" but don't actually read or understand the comment, drawing a false conclusion. It is unfair to penalize me for adding clarifying labels. Jonathanhusky (talk) 08:07, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Jonathanhusky, it is up to the uninvolved closer to review all of the comments and weigh the arguments when they assess the discussion. You are an involved participant and as Bushranger states, no editor edits other people's comments or "interprets them" by editing them in any way unless they need to hat disruptive content which is not the case here. Just know that if you try this again, you will be facing a block. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not an interpretation when the original editors said it themselves. And, please, stop saying that I've edited anyone else's comment. I didn't, haven't, and don't plan to - What I did was akin to a sticky note on the cover page. It's actually disruptive to say one thing when you mean something else. What I did is not and was not disruptive. Jonathanhusky (talk) 08:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

However you choose to interpret what you did (realizing that experienced editors disagree with you), consider yourself warned not to do it again. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:29, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

...realizing that experienced editors disagree with you...

Then go to the discussion and see for yourself - for goodness' sake, half of the responses labeled "opposed" aren't about the RFC, they're about a page name change (or "page move"). And you're saying that those prima facie irrelevant responses aren't invalid?

You mentioned an uninvolved closer. If everyone feels so strongly about the so-called "conclusion" of the discussion, then please start the process to render a decision. Obviously, the editors who have an opinion on the subject have commented and if they actually read and understood the evidence, and participated fairly, you can clearly see that they support the lead paragraph and other changes as suggested. Jonathanhusky (talk) 09:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

There's no then — this is not a negotiation. What you did was sanctionable misconduct, so you can't do that again, full stop. El_C 09:16, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

So any comment labeled "opposed" will stand no matter what the editor says, in that very same or other comments in the discussion? Even if they really didn't disagree, or the comment had nothing to do with the topic? Jonathanhusky (talk) 09:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. A closer might deem an argument as weak enough so as to give it little to no weight, but you can't take another's agency away by editing their comment. El_C 09:29, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Once again, I did not edit anyone else's comment. The text, data, and material of every other editor's comments and edits were not changed, deleted, or altered.

Stop insinuating and accusing me of something I did not do. Doesn't Wikipedia have policies against personal attacks? Jonathanhusky (talk) 09:32, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I can see the diffs just fine. You do not have the authority to edit inside their comment field. You are not being personally or otherwise attacked, but you do need to step away from this at this point, because it's increasingly coming across as WP:BLUDGEON and WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct, which are in themselves sanctionable. El_C 09:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jonathanhusky: I'll put it a different way. Do you think it was in any way acceptable if I had let this edit stand [16]? Perhaps the formatting is a little different but that's basically what you did. Nil Einne (talk) 09:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Nil Einne, it appears you did not actually understand the substance of this issue.

Firstly, since you were logged in and you are not me, it is obvious that such an edit in your example would have been thrown out immediately, automatically considered a target onto the other user, and perhaps result in you getting the first-person wish you typed on your own keyboard. Furthermore, you added something which wasn't suggested or supported in that or any of my other comments.

If we take a look at the real case here, we have editors who wrote "opposed" even though they didn't mean to. I did not remove any of their original "opposed" labels, nor any of their content. This fact needs to be respected. I placed before them, in a colored superscript italic indicating that it was an added emphasis not a part of their original comment "actually support".

I then linked to the reply that backs up that claim with "see their comment". It is obvious to any reader that the "sticky note" was and would have been separate from the editor's original comment, but clear (in the link and in the actual text) that the "opposed" would no longer be appropriate.

Had I removed any portion of their comment, or even not supported the change with linked evidence I could potentially understand the concern, albeit a form of crying wolf. Practically speaking, these were clarifying edits.

To accuse me of malfeasance and disruption is and was inappropriate and incorrect. Jonathanhusky (talk) 09:54, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Jonathanhusky is clearly in an "I am not going to listen to anyone else because I am right" mode. Accordingly, I have blocked Jonathanhusky for one month from editing Storrs, Connecticut and Talk: Storrs, Connecticut. They can spend that month contributing productively elsewhere and pondering the fact that this is a collaborative project where decisions are made by genuine consensus instead of misrepresentations and pushiness. Cullen328 (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

If you actually read the discussion, you'll note that I'm actually one of the most willing editors on the platform to consider that my suggestion may be in need of improvement or doesn't fit. I was practically the only person to even attempt to seek out the relevant policies, entries in the manual of style, and precedents. And discussed them based on specific points with other editors. I didn't name call and I didn't push an agenda.

Go back and see that other editors started drawing conclusions and accusing me. Since when, in a discussion, am I not allowed to respond to individual points?

You called my editing disruptive, which is not true and frankly rude. Jonathanhusky (talk) 10:03, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, you need to step back from this thread, or face additional sanctions. You do not have an inalienable right to to respond to individual points indefinitely. You are free to disagree, but not misuse (WP:BLUDGEON) this space further. El_C 10:24, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) I just actually read the discussion, and there is no way to interpret those comments other than that this village should first be named as Storrs and then Storrs-Mansfield be given as an alternative name, the opposite way round to the RFC. Being polite does not excuse lying. Frankly, you are lucky that you can still edit here. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On further thought, I've added ANI to the p-block list (now totaling three pages). Hopefully, this will suffice and we can avoid a sitewide block. Added: what Phil Bridger brings up is concerning. El_C 10:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. If this person still wishes to edit, they should know that they are standing on the edge of a precipice and should take several steps back. Cullen328 (talk) 10:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that merge discussion can be safely closed. It's going nowhere, and is another example of their disruptive behavior at that article. Isaidnoway (talk) 13:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Does this edit, made after the ANI was opened, also need to be reverted? SportingFlyer T·C 16:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I closed the thing. There might be an argument made for merging the two articles in question, and a very simple 'sometimes known as ...' line in there, but better for those to be discussed politely in a separate thread. Also note this change was made over on the simple-english wiki without discussion while this was all going on. Connecticut - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which I have reverted JeffUK 17:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I've modified the block to be site-wide due to continued edit warring, but reduced the length to two weeks. I think a lot of good faith has been extended to Jonathanhusky, but they're not listening to any of the advice or cautions provided.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:16, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

[17] Definitely not listening, and IMHO very likely to resume conduct once the block expires, so best to keep an eye on the various articles when that happens. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:32, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Jonathanhusky originally made identical Storrs-related edits from a variety of IP accounts in September 2024. Best to keep an eye out for logged out editing. Of course, at this point, I think this article on this CT town is on more Watchlists than it was 3 months ago when this dispute all first started. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:27, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't look promising. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Having looked through the recent bits on his talk page, the constant wikilawering, refusal to listen, and refusal to accept that he could have in any way be wrong, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works (with it being implicitly stated that he'll resume the exact same behavior that got him blocked when the block expired) leads me to believe that an indef now would be not uncalled for. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:12, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed 100%. The user's recent lengthy post on his talkpage (in response to your suggestion above) pretty much proves your point. Axad12 (talk) 05:22, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

• I made a proposal on the editor's user talk page that they can avoid being indefinitely blocked after the temporary block is over if they accept a voluntary editing restriction, imposed by a partial block from Storrs, Connecticut, Talk:Storrs, Connecticut and a topic ban from discussing this town anywhere on the project. This is really where all of their problematic editing arises from so I thought I'd throw this out and see if they can agree to spend their time working on other articles. Sorry to mention this town again, EEng. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Current use of Storrs-Mansfield

Unnecessary aside hatted for the sake of EEng's stomach - The Bushranger One ping only 23:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC) My stomach thanks you. EEng
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
As of this moment, there are exactly two uses of Storrs-Mansfield in mainspace, one in Storrs, Connecticut and one in Mansfield, Connecticut, both the title of the 674 Bus-line used as a reference in regards to public transportation.Naraht (talk) 20:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC) (a) How does this bear on this complaint? (b) If I hear the words "Storrs" or "Mansfield" one more time, I'm gonna vomit. EEng 22:34, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing from Guillaume de la Mouette

Involved: Guillaume de la Mouette (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
So I was looking through Special:NewFiles to make sure my tornado images went through, and I came across File:1983 John (Jack) Thornton.jpg, which is missing all information. Then, I came across Thornton's Bookshop, where the following text was added by the user (feel free to remove it with "copyvio removed" if this is a copyright violation, my Earwig isn't working), which was reverted by me and instantly re-added:

The founders and rules of the British Empire took the fame of Oxford to the far corners of the earth. Many of them were, of course, educated at Oxford; they ate Oxford marmalade for breakfast; in the twilight of Empire a few of them even relaxed in Oxford bags. Yet the name o£ Oxford is known to millions throughout the world not because of trousers, or marmalade, or even scholarship, but because they have received their education from books supplied by Oxford booksellers. Oxford, a city which had a well-established book trade; the makers of medieval books - the scribes, limners, illuminators, and binders - and their sellers clustered around St Mary's and in Catte Street, near the Schools which stood on the site now occupied by the Bodleian. Their customers were the men of the University, but the invention of printing wrought a revolution in the availability of books and in the ability to read them. It was not, however, the printers themselves, but the booksellers, who were the key figures in the dissemination of this vast new literature. The learned booksellers of Oxford were soon adapting themselves to new ways. John Dorne had a shop near St Mary's in the 1520s from which he sold a great variety of books: the old learning was represented by Peter Lombard, and the new by Erasmus; but amongst the learned folios Dorne also stocked school textbooks, ballads, sheet almanacs, and the astrological prognostications which our ancestors loved. Each year he had a stall at St. Frideswide’s Fair and at Austin Fair which provided valuable additional income. Dorne, and, no doubt, his contemporaries about whom little or nothing is known, had begun to bridge the gap between town and gown, supplying the needs and tastes of both. Outside the city there were no printers but there were books and men who sold them. As early as 1604 we know of a stationer in Charlbury. Stationers normally had a few ballads and Bibles on their shelves and from The original site of the bookshop in Magdalen street c. 1860 near the Oxford Memorial and the Randolph hotel them country bookshops developed. By 1800, all the major towns in Oxfordshire had a tradesman who was, at least in name a bookseller. Most of them are shadowy. Only accidental survivals, like the little Holloway cache rescued by Johnson, or the much larger Cheney archives, can add flesh to the bare bones of names and dates. We can, however, argue by analogy with similar survivals elsewhere in England. Such analogies suggest that there were few towns of any size in which there was not a bookshop able to supply the needs of the locality. In Oxfordshire, as elsewhere the book trade was essentially distributive, and the similarity between the trade in Oxfordshire and that elsewhere emphasises the point that Oxford itself is not only not the whole story but is rather a deviation from it. The learned men of Oxford made the city a major centre of learned publishing; but beyond the walls the county pursued a quiet and uneventful existence in which the book trade was one of many which catered to its modest needs.

This is comlete cruft and promotional, and this user has a clear-cut COI, as seen here. I think administrator intervention is needed, as they've been reverting Filedelinkerbot, me, and don't seem to listen to warnings on their talk page. E_F⁵ 16:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if this person knows what this is all about. It's an introduction to the history of the book trade in Oxford Guillaume de la Mouette (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

An article about a particular bookshop is not the place for an article about the poorly sourced Draft:History of the book trade in Oxford. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 16:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that this situation is problematic. The SPA user's extensive edits to that article are also entirely unsourced. I have reverted the article to the position before they started their spree (which seems to include a large IP edit in 19th Nov). Axad12 (talk) 16:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I have a very extensive archive of the bookshop, this goes back to about 1840. I am currently writing the history of 5 generations of booksellers in this, Oxford's oldest bookshop. I have just over 280 photographs, documents, letters etc just for the period 1835 - 1983. Of these I choose a few for Wikipedia. It is of course also strange that I keep on having to confirm copyright for photographs we, my wife and I took between 1983 and 2023. I added an introduction to the history of the book trade in Oxford till Thornton's opened in 1835 which you have now deleted and I now find that the site is back to the old one before I worked on this for days on end. It's simplistic. Guillaume de la Mouette (talk) 16:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Be that as it may, material added to Wikipedia articles must be properly cited to published sources and must be written in neutral encyclopaedic language. It also must not include large blocks of text taken from other sources. See WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:COPYVIO for further details on the relevant policies. Axad12 (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote the introduction myself, after all I have been a bookseller for more than 60 years. I let the previous generations speak about the history of the firm. But I realise that you allow AI to review all of this. a pity. Guillaume de la Mouette (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been tracking and watching storms for about 3 years now. Does that mean that I'm an "expert"? No! Please don't assume bad faith, as there are some serious NPOV issues here and we aren't "AI generated". E_F⁵ 16:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what AI has to do with this. Would you mind expanding?

Please also note that Wikipedia is no place for original research as per WP:OR. If you have researched the subject, the appropriate place to publish that research is in book form (or similar) not on Wikipedia (which simply reports what other already published sources say). Axad12 (talk) 16:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and I was in the legal field for over thirty years before my retirement, and that doesn't mean I get to override Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and the consensus of other editors to jam in whatever meandering prose I want. You would be well advised to pay attention to Axad12's counsel, as well as reviewing the links at WP:PILLAR before editing further. Ravenswing 16:59, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote the introduction myself, after all I have been a bookseller for more than 60 years. I let the previous generations speak about the history of the firm. But I realise that you allow AI to review all of this. a pity. Guillaume de la Mouette (talk) 17:08, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

What is your (mis)understanding of the role of AI here? The reason your work has been reverted has been stated very clearly above. The need to revert you was observed and agreed by human beings alone (all of whom who have seen your work appear to oppose it). Axad12 (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Axad12: They're now trying to re-add the info "secretly" under an IP (2A02:8012:B5B2:0:421:7B31:2D08:281E). I think block is in order? E_F⁵ 16:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

This situation is rather sad, it would have been a lot more constructive if they had had a look at the policies I had pointed them to rather than starting to edit war while logged out.

I suppose it's up to them whether they want to be a useful contributor within the bounds of the relevant policies and guidelines, or someone who got blocked for edit warring.

Guillaume, I would seriously suggest that you opt for the former course. Axad12 (talk) 17:07, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

thanks, I'll give up, a pity you are happy with an inferior description which fortunately I have saved and will be part of my Faringdon chronicle volume 5 to be housed in both the Bodleian library and the central Historical archive in Oxford. And by the way, the above I am he not they. :) Yes I still need to correct the introduction. Guillaume de la Mouette (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was assuming that the book plug was going to happen at some point. Axad12 (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Guillaume de la Mouette, the bottom line is this: If you want to edit Wikipedia, then you must comply with Wikipedia's Policies and guidelines. Neither your expertise nor your age give you any exemptions. Cullen328 (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: They continue to blank content, as seen by their recent contributions. E_F⁵ 17:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328, despite my dickishness, let's look at some of Guy's contributions. Today, adding a crap ton of unsourced content to Thornton's Bookshop, and another edit, deleting some of the unsourced content? Weird stuff. BarntToust 17:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I have blocked Guillaume de la Mouette for one week for disruptive editing. Cullen328 (talk) 17:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, @Guillaume de la Mouette, good luck with seeing if you can sneak your Amazon.fr print-ordered book into the donation boxes at the local libraries that you haven't yet been kicked out of for similar, prior incidents. BarntToust 18:45, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

BarntToust, that remark was completely inappropriate and unnecessary. Cullen328 (talk) 19:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with the unnecessary part, but.. inappropriate? I would characterise that as "chiding" and "dank" before I'd consider it inappropriate. BarntToust 19:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not an off-kilter reading of what's probably going on with Guillaume, but still definitely not helpful. I'll see myself out, eh. BarntToust 19:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

actually, looks like this is a bookseller? huh. weird. BarntToust 19:54, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

BarntToust, since you failed to take the hint, consider this a formal warning: Never address a another editor in such a mocking fashion again. Cullen328 (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

alrighty, no mocking. I should instead invite the editor to indeed wait until his works are published by a reliable publishing house, then provide identifying info, such as ISBN in order for his knowledge to be utilised in the project. BarntToust 20:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't doubt actually, misplaced mockery aside, that this information Guillaume has put forth is true. But, as some essay said once, "Wikipedia isn't truth, it's verifiablity". So, let's wait for the book to be published, and judge from there. BarntToust 20:03, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Lavipao edit warring + POV pushing

• Lavipao (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user is deliberately POV pushing on Operation Euphrates Shield and Operation Olive Branch articles, comparing these to US invasion of Iraq and Russian invasion of Ukraine. While these articles do not even include the word "invasion" as title but "operation". Also in international politics, only handful countries have called this an invasion. Undue weight. I reported this vandalism and asked for page protection but admin called this a content dispute, which is funny because the one editing 6 to 8 years old text is right in this context. Weird! Beshogur (talk) 08:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Beshogur, you're a very experienced editor, you know you have to present diffs so that editors can investigate your complaint. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That's I can do on mobile.

Operation Olive Branch

rev before

rev after

Operation Euphrates Shield

rev before

rev after

Beshogur (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this content dispute, but it undoubtably is a content dispute. It doesn't matter that at least one editor thinks they are "right in this context" - it is still a content dispute. And an invasion is not necessarily bad. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:15, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

In these both articles operation appears 10x more than invasion. And invasion is subjective. This can not be compared to Iraq or Ukraine invasion. The ratio of local Syrian rebels were 10x more than Turkish troops, yet it's conducted by the Turkish army. It is not even against the Syrian regime but ISIL and YPG. "not necessarily bad"? so let's change everything slightly to not necessarily bad instead of stating factual things. Beshogur (talk) 09:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss content disputes. And your opening salvo on their talk page [18] of "Revert your edit or you will be reported. This is the consensus." is not the right way to deal with a content dispute either. They probably shouldn't have reverted their change back in again without discussing it, but honestly, if that's the level of discussion they're introduced to I can see why they didn't think discussing it would be helpful. JeffUK 10:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I am complaining the way administrators treat this as a content dispute. I asked for page protection and intervention against vandalism, but nothing. Administrators doing these do not even check the content. This is a disruptive edit and action should be taken. So he's changing something and I have to convince him. What a joke honestly. This is simply time wasting. Both of his edits are like "is an invasion bla bla" then suddenly 2-3 times the word operation appears in the lead again. Both were not described as a military invasion, but had been described as an invasion by a very fringe minority. If he thinks both were a military invasions, he should ask for title change "2016 invasion of Syria", etc. Beshogur (talk) 12:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Also leaving this here as an example Operation_Olive_Branch#International reactions (simple read the countries):

• Cyprus: The Republic of Cyprus condemned the Turkish invasion in Afrin
• France: evolves into an attempted invasion (assumption)
• Sweden: to protest the Afrin invasion (statement of the newspaper, not Swedish government)
• US: US State Department spokesperson Heather Nauert called on Turkey not to engage in any invasion of Syria's Afrin (doesn't have a source, and US called this an operation, not invasion)

for Operation_Euphrates_Shield#International_reactions

• Cyprus: the unacceptable invasion of Turkey into Syria

Now tell me how his edits is appropriate? Beshogur (talk) 12:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

How is whether we should describe this as an invasion or an operation not a content dispute? It is certainly not vandalism. The use of that word is a personal attack. And it's perfectly possible for something to be both an invasion and an operation. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not arguing this resulted in a military occupation (see Turkish occupation of Northern Syria) but military invasion =/= military occupation. Invasion aims to conquer a land, while the Turkish army doesn't control a piece of land there, but uses proxy, which makes this different from US invasion of Iraq or Russian invasion of Ukraine. This is simply wrong, and we should be realistic. I don't care if anyone calls this an invasion or not, I am trying to say a fringe minority calls this an invasion. I don't get how Military operation suddenly became a taboo word after Russian invasion (yes yes I know the special military operation). Beshogur (talk) 13:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

>I don't care if anyone calls this an invasion or not, I am trying to say a fringe minority calls this an invasion.

Then say that a fringe minority call it an invasion! something like '[the operation]..characterised by some as an invasion.." would be an excellent compromise and a valuable addition to the article. JeffUK 13:42, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

How so exactly? We edit like that. WP:UNDUE. Beshogur (talk) 14:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

This is an argument to make on the Talk page. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that (the article talk page) is the right place to talk about this content dispute. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

"Content dispute" is always the most bizarre reasoning given for refusal at RPP. Yes, this edit war is a content dispute—that's what a #$%!ing edit war is! It's a disruptive content dispute!

Someone should probably write an essay on this. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 21:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

But was there any edit warring? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello! As others have said this is a content dispute, which should be discussed on the talk page for the specific article. There is no POV or vandalism occurring, I’m just attempting to clean up the article by using correct and accurate language that reflects consistently the language used throughout this website for invasions. As I’ve provided before, there are many examples of pages on invasions throughout Wikipedia, such as the US invasion of Afghanistan or the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

User Beshogur has been continuously reverting away from correct language to use euphemistic, purposefully-confusing terms such as “cross border military operation” which is a term not used in other Wikipedia articles.

The user seems to have a very strong conviction that only Turkish government phrasing or sources should be used to describe this event, even though around the world this invasion has been widely covered as an invasion. I suspect a strong POV issue with this user Lavipao (talk) 02:06, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

This user is deliberately edit warring and POV pushing. administrators should intervene asap. Beshogur (talk) 22:32, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

You are also edit-warring and you've failed to open a talk page discussion despite telling Lavipao too. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:16, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Traumnovelle: because he's clear POV pushing? We have to revert POV pushing on wikipedia, not trying to convince the POV pusher. I asked several times page protection or intervention for vandalism (yet him having like less than 50 edits). Beshogur (talk) 08:44, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

This user abuses 1RR rule, and edit warring, yet administrators doing nothing. Good. Beshogur (talk) 21:32, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

What 1RR rule is there on these pages? On the user's talk page you reference an introduction to ARBPIA, what does a Turkish military operation in Syria against Kurdish groups have to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict? Traumnovelle (talk) 00:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

a Turkish military operation in Syria against Kurdish groups: Not ARBPIA, but WP:ARBKURDS. "The topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed...has been designated as a contentious topic" - and thus 1RR applies. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Good to know. It might be best to explain to give a proper explanation of it to Lavipao. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Their responses do not look promising. Calling another editor a "Classic no-life activist editor" is not good. Codename AD ^talk 21:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

A classic case of WP:THETRUTH. I've given them what can be considered a final warning. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

[19] "Power hungry losers" That's concerning. They've made more PA's on that reply. They seem to not understand what WP:NPA is. Also "Idiots like you" that's really concerning . Codename AD ^talk 12:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Given that Lavipao has resumed the same editing on Operation Olive Branch and has never posted on the talk page there (and has posted on a talk page once in his entire editing career), I've protected the page for 72 hours so this can be resolved on the article talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
  • And as their response was this and making the same edit on Operation Euphrates Shield, protected that page for 72 hours as well. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

    Aww the little butthurt power hungry admin doesn't like when people call him out for his blatant propaganda work for the genocidal Turkish government? I hope they're at least paying you or else it's just sad how much work you do for Erdogan for free lmao Lavipao (talk) 06:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

    • Lavipao, if you are trying to get yourself indefinitely blocked for personal attacks, you are doing a great job at it. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

      [20] lol as soon as you’ve been proven completely wrong by the above talk page comment you block editing on the page to protect your little Turkish propaganda phrase. Idiots like you are why people don’t take this website seriously anymore. Buncha power hungry losers running the site Beshogur (talk) 13:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

      Who gives a fuck if I get banned lol, I tried to correct a Turkish propaganda agents disinformation campaign and have been blocked at every turn by said Turkish propaganda agent. Many sources have been provided for why this user is completely lying and spreading disinformation but instead of anyone doing anything, yall are complaining about my words.

      This site has clearly been compromised by people pushing disinformation instead of the open source collection of information it used to be. Glad that teachers tell their students never to use this site for information it’s clearly not reliable whatsoever. Lavipao (talk) 20:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

      "You are the only person waging this war of disinformation trying to get your “cross border operation” term used instead of the real term, invasion. You have been shown many sources which refer to this as an invasion but yet you continue to fight against the consensus to keep your false narrative. You should be banned from Wikipedia for your obvious bias". Beshogur (talk) 08:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• I see Lavipao has been blocked for a week. This can probably be closed now. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Editor508 + their IP (86.28.195.223) POV pushing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Editor508 (talk · contribs)
• 86.28.195.223 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

The two (the same person actually) are pushing their POV at UEFA Euro 2028, even though it is a long-standing consensus that the countries are always listed alphabetically. Single purpose accounts and IP editing with their pro-Wales edits and complexes against England, those edits are not done in a good faith and needs to be permanently blocked - or semi-protect the page in question for several months.

Difs Editor508:

• Diff 1
• Diff 2
• Diff 3
• Diff 4

Diffs 86.28.195.223

• Diff 1
• Diff 2
• Diff 3
• Diff 4
• Diff 5
• Diff 6

Snowflake91 (talk) 11:06, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

• The user was already partial-blocked from the article, I have done the same for the IP. If the IP is the user evading a block, they'll find they've just extended their block significantly, since I blocked the IP with "block registered users from this IP" enabled. Black Kite (talk) 12:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Emiya1980 Repeated Edit Warring

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Emiya1980 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) My colleague has been engaged in numerous edit wars, most recently demonstrated here [21] for another edit war at Hirohito. While both parties engaged in an Edit War, and the admin responding chose not to block either editor, Emiya1980's edit warring seems to be a chronic, intractable issue. Emiya1980 has received multiple warnings for Edit Warring, here at ANI, and on his talkpage [22][23][24][25][26][27] and yet continues to engage in edit warring, even crossing the bright line of the WP:3RR in the latest edit war.

I propose implementation of a WP:1RR restriction on Emiya1980 for at least six months, to prevent further, continued disruptive edit warring. Withdrawn. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 14:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Given how much I’ve collaborated with BRP recently, I am rather taken aback by their decision to have me subject to further sanctions without speaking with me beforehand.

I have made a point of trying to conform to Wikipedia’s expectations since being subjected to sanction in October. The recent edit war over at Hirohito is the only evidence provided of me being a disruptive presence since then. In the past, I have tried to compromise with LilAhok on that page but he/she has responded more often than not by digging in his/her heels. I am not the first editor whom LilAhok has gotten in a heated dispute with and I doubt I’ll be the last.

I ask that all I’ve said be taken into consideration before reaching a decision. Emiya1980 (talk) 14:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't this go to WP:ANEW, or if it's with a specific problem, WP:DRN? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 15:52, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Given how much I’ve collaborated with BRP recently, I am rather taken aback by their decision to have me subject to further sanctions without speaking with me beforehand.

I have spoken to you beforehand. I urged you to be less combative and to WP:DISENGAGE, which is why I found it disappointing to see that you violated WP:3RR in a conflict on Hirohito with an editor that I suggested you WP:DISENGAGE from months ago [28]. My proposal for a WP:1RR is as much for your own good as it is the encyclopedia, because perhaps you'll just let things go and not run the risk of a site block. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 23:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Emiya1980 hasn't edit warred since an admin closed that report at ANEW with two days of full protection. BRP seems to think that admin wasn't aware of previous conflicts and if they had been, they wouldn't have let Emiya1980 off so lightly. I'll ask. @Crazycomputers: did you know about the behavior reported here? If not, do you think it's problematic enough that Emiya1980 should now get 1RR restriction, a block, and/or any other sanction? City of Silver 18:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For reference: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive489 § User:Emiya1980 reported by User:LilAhok (Result: Page protected)

Typically when investigating ANEW reports, unless there is a specific comment regarding past behavior, I look only at the facts presented at the time. For any participants I conclude are edit warring, I also will take their block log into account. In this case there was no reference to past behavior, so I didn't dig into either participant's history.

The other party in the edit war was starting to make an attempt to discuss on the article's talk page, and I did not want to stifle that discussion with a 2-party block, so I opted for page protection instead. However, it does not seem that Emiya1980 engaged in discussion on the article's talk page at all, so this approach unfortunately did not have the intended effect.

Having said all of that, I don't think a block is necessary at this time. Emiya1980 has not really even edited substantially since the ANEW report. I count one single edit in mainspace since then. Blocking now, a full week after the edit war, without a recurrence of the problematic behavior, would be in contravention of WP:NOPUNISH.

Looking at the links provided by BRP:

• Heinrich Himmler: They reverted once and then ceased. For an incident that happened 4 years ago, this is not terribly concerning to me.
• The edit warring at Talk:Benito Mussolini is concerning, especially since it involves removing/striking other people's messages. Emiya1980 should be reminded of WP:TPO, if they were not at the time.
• Unless I'm missing something, at World War II related to this discussion, I see one revert.
• The last is the edit war is the one handled by me at ANEW.

Out of these four incidents, two of them would be within the proposed 1RR sanction. Unless more compelling evidence is brought forward demonstrating that this is a chronic and intractable problem, I do not think additional sanctions are warranted. As the situation stands today, I think the standard edit warring policy is sufficient to handle future issues. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 19:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Emiya1980 hasn't edit warred since an admin closed that report at ANEW with two days of full protection. BRP seems to think that admin wasn't aware of previous conflicts and if they had been, they wouldn't have let Emiya1980 off so lightly

My suggestion was borne entirely of the fact that the user has accrued an unusual amount of edit warring notices across the past year, and the idea that a WP:1RR restriction would prevent further disruption. The links I provided are not the only warnings that Emiya1980 has received. It isn't that I believe the Admin would have reacted differently, it is a matter of feeling like the community should take action to prevent further distrubances.

Here is a list of edit warning notices and other evidence demonstrating a timeline of repeated behavior:

• May 2024[29]

• May 2024 Edit War Difs [30][31]

• June 2024[32][33][34]

• September 2024[35]

• October 2024 (The Slow War) [36][37] [38][39][40][41][42]

• November 2024 [43] [44]

• November 2024 Edit War Diffs[45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52] [53]

Regarding "Missing something at World War II", as explained here [54] Making a change, getting reverted, re-reverting, and being re-reverted again actually can constitute edit warring.

Supplying any further diffs would be overkill at this point (in fact, it already is overkill). I was succint in the diffs I supplied on the first round for fear of applying too many, but it demonstrates at the very least that Emiya1980 has been engaged in edit warring in September 2024, October 2024, November 2024. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 23:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I would like to point out that (with regards to the links posted for “November 2024”) both warnings against edit-warring on my talk page were posted by LilAhok who was likewise edit-warring on Hirohito. While the second warning is signed as “Ulises Laertíada”, said post was made by LilAhok not the former.Emiya1980 (talk) 11:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, if they're running around signing notices as someone else, that's a problem. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 12:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I can verify that LilAhok did apparently leave a warning on Emiya1980's page and signed it as @Ulises Laertíada for some reason [55] Brocade River Poems (She/They) 12:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, yeah, pretending to be another editor is not acceptable, and should result in sanctions. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

[56]

In this post, I clearly said I signed it by mistake. In August 2024, another user reminded me to sign my edits [57]. I am not used to signing edits since wiki usually does it automatically. Sometimes it doesn't. @Emiya1980 even mentioned it in the post and crossed it out because I admitted to that mistake on the admin board. Why would I pretend to be another editor when all edits are recorded on the history page? LilAhok (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest you look at WP:Signature, then. All you need to sign anything is four tildes ~~~~ to generate a signature. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 23:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know that. i'll take a look at WP:Signature. LilAhok (talk) 23:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Contrary to LilAhok's protestations of ignorance, this is not the first time they have been warned about improperly signing comments. [58] Emiya1980 (talk) 23:52, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Heinrich Himmler - Emiya1980's edit warring behavior demonstrated through reverts and partial reverts on 14 September 2024.

User's preferred version: [59] - 20:45, 14 September 2024

Reverts & partial Reverts on same content:

[60] - 19:15, 14 September 2024

[61] - 20:53, 14 September 2024

[62] - 21:06, 14 September 2024

[63] - 22:33, 14 September 2024

[64] - 23:00, 14 September 2024 LilAhok (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Seeing how LilAhok has seen fit to support sanctions against me in this thread, I think it's only fair to point out that LilAhok likewise has a history of edit-warring with other contributors besides myself. [65]. [66]

He/she also appears to have recurring problems with copyright violations. They have been warned by editors about such conduct on at least three separate occasions. [67], [68], [69]. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@LilAhok and Emiya1980: Neither of you is going to get in trouble for previous issues per WP:NOPUNISH, which says "Blocks should not be used...if there is no current conduct issue of concern." If you keep going back and forth dredging up old stuff like this, that probably will be considered a "current conduct issue of concern" and blocks could come into play. Why not disengage and move on? City of Silver 00:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I have moved on from the situation, but it appears that Emiya1980 has not, as shown by their behavior in this discussion.

Although Emiya1980 was reported by another user for edit warring, not myself, they have nonetheless mentioned me in this discussion. This was a consecutive edit by the user. [70]

As I pointed out earlier [71], I acknowledged my signature mistake in a previous administrative discussion, and Emiya participated in that conversation by asking, "I am curious though. Why did you sign your warning on my page as another editor?" [72] (This question had already been addressed by me long before the user asked it). [73] Emiya even went so far as to strike through their own question.[74] Despite this, Emiya knowingly misrepresented my actions by bringing up my earlier mistake in the current discussion. [75] Emiya1980's comments were not constructive to the discussion and were malicious in nature, as other users were speculating about whether I was signing my posts under different usernames. Had I not addressed the issue, there was a possibility that I could have been sanctioned or banned.

WP:CIV - I have issued multiple reminders and warnings to the user, advising them to refrain from engaging in uncivil behavior towards me.[76] I posted a final civil warning on their talk page after 3 violations. Prior to that, I made three reminders of the user's uncivil conduct.

Emiya1980's deliberate misrepresentations of my actions, despite it having already been addressed, constitute a violation of WP:CIV. Despite multiple reminders and warnings, and considering the seriousness of the most recent violation, should the user's behavior be reported? LilAhok (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading, but I believe their intent in bringing up the signature incident in this thread was to make it clear to people reviewing the diffs that both warnings were actually issued by you, not to suggest that you be sanctioned for that accident. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 01:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@LilAhok: After you stated "I have moved on from the situation," you typed out almost 300 words of you rehashing complaints that have already been addressed, proving that you have absolutely not "moved on from the situation" one bit. I'll say again: "Neither of you is going to get in trouble for previous issues". Just now in their message below this one, admin Crazycomputers told you that since there isn't a current problem, neither of you is going to get in trouble for previous issues. Since neither of you is going to get in trouble for previous issues, why keep trying? City of Silver 02:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm very close to proposing an interaction ban between these two editors. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 02:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

If you do I'll support it. You're actually the reason I'm so frustrated; I was reluctant to lasso you into this because I felt like it could end up being a major waste of your time and a day later, sure enough, it's been little more than a major waste of your time. On the matter at hand, anyone who wants to know why an interaction ban is in order can trudge through this thread and see how much pointless bickering could have been avoided if these two editors were both required to leave each other alone. City of Silver 05:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your consideration. Ultimately it is what it is, and given that I handled the most recent ANEW report it's probably inevitable that I ended up here one way or another. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 06:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Looking through these diffs, I'm not really seeing anything new. I see a lot of warnings to Emiya1980, but warnings are not evidence of anything other than that they're aware of our edit warring policy. In the diffs you provided, many are EW warning notices, others are duplicate links, and still others are links to reverts made by other editors. When you filter all of this out, it's pretty much the same list as you initially posted.

I'm not stating categorically that there's no problem with their behavior (there is), or that additional sanctions aren't necessary (they might be). I'm just stating that I don't think their problematic behavior yet rises to the level where additional sanctions are required -- at least I don't see evidence of that. An admonishment that this behavior is unacceptable and that future incidents will likely result in a block should be sufficient at this time. Of course, this is just my opinion, and any other administrator is welcome to chime in here if they disagree.

To be clear, if they want to voluntarily adopt a 1RR restriction as a stricter guardrail to help them avoid extended edit wars in the future, I would have no problem enforcing that. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 01:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Cheers, I'm not hard pressed on the issue, so I'm not going to fight you about it or anything. If you feel that there isn't anything more to do, then I'm fine with that. I do want to note that I very specifically wasn't suggesting that Emiya should be blocked from the site, which was why I was proposed a 1RR restriction instead of suggesting they should be blocked. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 11:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request TPA revocation from Pavanreddy211

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

TPA needs to be revoked from Pavanreddy211 (talk · contribs). They may be WP:NOTHERE again. Ahri Boy (talk) 21:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the eyes. BusterD (talk) 21:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New, uncommunicative editor adding European Cultural Centre University & Research Projects Award

Nisa-helena (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a relatively new editor who has made nearly 180 edits only to add links to and information about the European Cultural Centre University & Research Projects Award to many articles. In many cases, the edits include an external link which is not something that should be added to the body of an article. In many cases, the additions are also vague and unnecessary. I would love to discuss my objections and help this editor but they are not responding to any messages or even using edit summaries. A message from another editor may get their attention but a brief block may be necessary. ElKevbo (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

So is it now perfectly acceptable for an editor to add vague information and external links to articles while refusing to communicate with other editors in any way? ElKevbo (talk) 15:40, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

If you want somebody to check out the user's behavior, please post some diffs as examples. Toughpigs (talk) 16:05, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Every single edit they have made is to add this information. No communication whatsoever. ElKevbo (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Small correction: Their initial edits after creating their account in October were not about this award but focused on adding information about books published by the centre. ElKevbo (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Checked out this user's contribution history and @ElKevbo is not exaggerating. He doesn't need to post diffs because if you check the contributions, every single one of the diffs follows the pattern he mentioned. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 03:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Crikey, they're even adding spam to articles of people who were "shortlisted" for these nonnotable awards. Editor has had plenty of time to respond to the several warnings. Block. EEng 08:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked for a week in hope of their communicating. If they instead resume on the expiration, it'll be indef time. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:43, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive and tendentious editing by TheRazgriz on the 2024 United States elections page

TheRazgriz has engaged in persistent, disruptive and tendentious editing on the 2024 United States elections page, including making multiple ad hominem attacks against myself, (calling me an emotional biased editor engaging in borderline vandalism, accusing me of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and of acting with intentional bad faith) and making several WP:UNCIVIL comments on the talk page pointed out by other editors. TheRazgriz did apologize once on my talk page, but continued to engage in such attacks against myself afterwards. TheRazgriz has been called out by several other editors on his talk page for uncivil comments on this and other pages, which are promptly removed shortly thereafter. In comments on his talk page, Wikipedia admin Bishonen has noted Raz's use of "rudeness and sexualized language" (ex: "stroke off your ego", calling people "boy"). Wikipedia admin Doug Weller noted that his message in reply to Bishonen "comes across as somewhat arrogant". User Magnolia677 made a warning against Raz of potential edit warring on the Bryson City, North Carolina page.

I previously submitted an AN/I incident against TheRazgriz on December 3rd following his premature closure of a talk page section which was upheld. TheRazgriz has since made multiple novel and rejected interpretations of Wikipedia RS and OR policy, all of which have been unanimously rejected by editors both in an RfC I opened and a discussion on the Original Research noticeboard. During discussions, TheRazgriz refused to provide any reliable secondary sources for his claims, instead claiming the ONUS was not on him. TheRazgriz has also been called out by other editors that his claims about the content of prior edits was incorrect as shown by edit history.

TheRazgriz has frequently refused to engage in meaningful discussion with myself, with his repeated insistence that he is right and I am wrong (one example: "I have proven that assertion to be true. Can you disprove that assertion?"), and only relenting once overwhelming and unanimous agreement from other editors that his interpretation of policy is mistaken. Despite his interpretations being unanimously rejected by other editors multiple times, TheRazgriz has continued to insist his edits and interpretations of policy not disputed by at least three editors cannot be removed. TheRazgriz has falsely claimed a consensus exists within the "Undue weight in lead" section of the talk page for his "final" edits to the Economy section, which he has previously used to revert edits to the section and as of today claims he will continue to revert using consensus as the reason.

I do believe that TheRazgriz does think his interpretations of policy are correct. However, as a new editor with roughly 250 mainspace edits (Raz claims he has over 114,000 edits on other unregistered accounts but that his IP address changes frequently), and with his discussions and interpretations of policy being unanimously rejected by multiple editors, I believe that TheRazgriz requires further knowledge of Wikipedia policy in order to become an better editor. BootsED (talk) 03:22, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

What has troubled me about this editor is that after I've had some conversations with them about policy and questioning claims that they've made on their user page that they seemingly followed me to an RFC on Israel, casting a !vote at Special:Diff/1261260050 that they weren't entitled to make given that they are not WP:XC. Now the edit can be forgiven for an editor who is new, however what concerned me was that they had never edited in that area before and then ended up doing so after I had made edits in that RFC. When I questioned the circumstance in which they made that edit, they WP:ABF and accused me of disruptive behaviour. When I suggested they strike their incivil comments before it escalate, they deleted the discussion between us and in the edit summary wrote "Removed unproductive comments, potential WP:DE" again WP:ABF and accusing me of engaging in disruptive behaviour. Given the litany of WP:ABF and WP:UNCIVIL directed at other editors at Talk:2024 United States elections as well as what I have experienced first hand, it is patently clear to me that this editor does not hold the level head needed in order to be participating in the post 1992 American politics CTOP area and should probably be topic banned. TarnishedPath^talk 04:06, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I did not "follow" you. As someone who is new to the named user side of things, I am still exploring the deep dark rabbit holes "behind the curtain" that I had only rarely ever seen glimpses of before as a casual IP editor. With this other user having brought up something to a NB which involved me, it activated my curiosity around NB's and that led me down yet another rabbit hole of exploring which led me to the RfC, from a NB and not from the page itself. As my userbox on my userpage shows, I do indeed have an interest in such subject matter. As also pointed out, all of that subject matter is out of bounds for profiles with less than 500 edits. Even if I wanted to establish a record of interest in the area, how would I possibly have done so? That feels like a very unfair point.

Never the less, I do have a personal interest in that, but due to my IRL background I would caution myself from participating much, if at all, in that subject matter. I first recognized my bias after Oct 7, and as such I have made a promise to myself to not seek out any subject matter relating to Israel, Hamas, Palestine, etc for editing, only for reading, as this bias does not come from a place of passion but from a place of personal lived experiences. However that RfC was on if a particular news outlet was RS or not, and I wanted to offer my opinion only after reading the RfC opinions and confirming that others shared my view on that org, and for the same reasons. As was confirmed here on my page after they removed the post for the 500 edit issue, there was no other problem with my edit. Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

User:BootsED, ultimately, what outcome are you looking for with this second complaint? You clearly spent quite a lot of time putting this all together but it's not clear what result you are seeking through this discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I do not want to presume what action should be necessary for this editor, as I will admit this is only the second time I have engaged in an AN/I discussion and I am unfamiliar with this user's actions compared to other similar incidents and what actions were taken against them in the past. I agree with TarnishedPath that there should at least be a post-1992 American politics topic ban. However, his misunderstanding of basic policy and frequent uncivil behavior makes me question whether or not his disruptive editing will simply continue on other non-American politics articles and if he will show the necessary humility and willingness to learn. BootsED (talk) 05:33, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Their inability or unwillingness to understand core WP:PAG, particularly WP:RS and WP:NOR, is troubling especially given they claim to have been editing since 2007-08 with 114,000+ edits. TarnishedPath^talk 06:40, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Not a good look that User:TheRazgriz does not understand why pinning demeaning language on the top of their talk page is bad. Northern Moonlight 10:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I have warned TheRazgriz about bludgeoning the process at Talk:2024 United States elections. If nothing changes, I consider page-blocking them. Bishonen | tålk 15:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC).

I'd support at least that. I want to know about any possible NOR or RS issues. Doug Weller talk 15:45, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller, on the issue of WP:RS please see Special:Diff/1261261442 where they try and claim a citation from NYT as subpar (Yourish & Smart| at the same time as pushing usage of WP:NYPOST "to give Republican perspective". When I asked them to clarify in which context NYPOST is reliable, by providing a specific story (see Special:Diff/1261274529 and Special:Diff/1261276064), they responded at Special:Diff/1261281341 that "I am speaking generally" in regards to NYPOST and that "The NYP is thus depreciated as a source of factual reporting, but on the matter of partisan reporting I would assume they would be a RS in reference to reporting aspects from the perspective of the right". During the aforementioned reply they advise that they read the RFC on the reliability of NYPOST to arrive at that conclusion.

In regards to Original Research, see this WP:NOV/N discussion where they are told by multiple editors that they a section of text they were promoting was original research. Even after clear consensus on WP:NOR/N they didn't remove the offending material and it took me removing it at Special:Diff/1261297519 to remove the original research from the article. TarnishedPath^talk 01:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

One of Razgriz's opinions on RS is that opinion pieces are RS if they are written by an "expert" source and can be used to make claims in the narrative tone. His NOR/N discussion revealed he believes that he can interpret data from primary sources to make synth claims, and his comments suggest he does not understand what a primary versus secondary source is.

I have also brought up several issues with NPOV in the Economy section of the page, which Razgriz has dismissed claiming I am engaging in WP:IDONTLIKEIT. BootsED (talk) 02:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

"...and can be used to make claims in the narrative tone." That is not true of my position. My position is they can be used against arguments in the narrative tone. I specifically argued they shoudl not ever be used as justification for presenting a WikiVoice assertion, more and better RS would be needed for such, but that if something is being asserted in WV, then yes the opinions of subject matter experts can be used to demonstrate a significant counter-point. This is in line with WP:NEWSOPED, "The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint." Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

As I have stated before, this falls into WP:FALSEBALANCE. You did use the NYP to make a WikiVoice assertion. The NYP article you posted was not an op-ed, but a regular article. You did not state that it came from the NYP or an individual writing in the NYP in the body of text either. The sentence immediately prior was: After Biden dropped out and endorsed Harris, the Harris campaign made a large shift in Democrat messaging on the economy issue, particularly on the topic of "affordability" where Democrat messaging began to widely accept that basic goods were still too expensive for the average American.

Other issues I had with squarequotes and NPOV framing was your sentence: with President Biden and Rep. Nancy Pelosi often remarking they "inherited" economic problems from Trumps first-term, claiming it was now "strong" under their leadership. I also pointed out your repeated use of "Democrat", where the correct tense should have been "Democratic messaging". BootsED (talk) 21:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

That statement also came with an additional citation beside NYP, and was done prior to me becoming aware of the change in NYP status. That is not a fair point to argue. We all make mistakes and errors. I am only human. I have been on WP for nearly 2 decades now, and until this year I did not edit much in relation to contemporary topics. The last time I had used NYP as a source, it was a valid source per WP:RS. That has since changed, and I acknowledged that wrong. I dont appreciate that you are also confusing the timeline of events for those trying to piece together this rather lengthy puzzle, on a moot point no less. Let it go. To me this is starting to get to the point of WP:DEADHORSE.

Your second and third points were addressed before you even made this NB, where I admitted you were correct. I even added one of those as a fun factoid on my userpage, to help spread awareness and to have a little fun at my own expense as it obviously highlights to you and anyone else who sees that Talk topic that I made a bit of an arse of myself with that one and hadn't even known it at the time. I'm not sure why you bring this up again here. What is your point in doing so? Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

No, as shown here, your NYP citation was the only citation used to make that claim. Other editors had to remove NYP from the page after you conceded the point. Other points were only partially addressed by other editors afterwards, but many of the issues I have pointed out still remain on the page. You only admitted I was correct on the NYP point after unanimous consensus by other editors, and still contested there was any issue with your other edits to the page as I have pointed out repeatedly here. You only conceded where unanimous editor consensus was against you, but as I have stated in my initial post, you still insist that you will undo any edit of mine not backed up by at least three other editors.

Quote: I will have no major opposition if at least 3 editors (yourself and two others) agree to the new changes. ... If you get the simple majority with yourself and at least 2 others at the end of this, you make the change and as I maintained from the outset, I will not undo it. If you (surprisingly) fail, then the changes are not made. I was very specific about my issues with your edit, as seen here and here, which you claim I was not. I have not touched the page for days now to avoid an edit war. This is partly why I brought forwards this AN/I issue, as you are using false claims of a consensus and explicitly promising to revert any edits to the page which is very disruptive. I do not need an RfC to make any edit to the page because you disagree with it, and other RfC's and discussions have all unanimously ruled against you for incorrect interpretations of Wikipedia policy. Do I need to make an RfC to debate your every interpretation of Wikipedia policy? Because this is what you are suggesting. BootsED (talk) 23:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

No, that is not at all what I have suggested, and I believe you understand that already, but I have already addressed all of this in previous comments, despite your persistence in removing context in order to uncharitably misconstrue small portions of edits and comments within a different framing. I will not continue to waste space and the time of admins who will have to go through this mountain of a mess. The only point I will make here is to remind you that even as I write this, you still do not have any support for your position against the view of WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS being reached previously, so I would caution against continuing to press on that point to then misconstrue elements of my argument that are obviously based around it.

Your initial posting here was extensive enough, and my reply against your accusations was exhaustive as well. We should not use this NB to have further back and forth. I ask out of respect for the process that this be our last messages here unless admins request further input, unless you have something further to add to your initial complaint against me (emphasis to discourage re-hashing points you may already have made here).

I am sorry we ended up being uncivil to one another, I am sorry that we could not move forward in good faith, I am sorry you wish to only see every statement I make or position I take in the most uncharitable and unflattering light, and I am sorry you feel that good faith opposition to your proposed edit is disruptive. Besides "shut up, say you are wrong, and go away so I can do what I want", I do not know what it is you actually want out of me from any of this. So for now, I will let admins review was has been presented, and let them decide how best to proceed. Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 01:46, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Raz, there is no "editor consensus" on your claims of a consensus because no editors other than us have been involved in that particular discussion. I brought forth this AN/I partly for reasons stated above. But I agree, we should let others talk and not hog all this space. BootsED (talk) 13:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I offered a good faith compromise to settle our disagreement via WP:CON, and you have elected to do all of this? To be blunt, this seems like a lot of cherry-picking and mischaracterization of my actions, along with whitewashing and outright ignoring many of your own actions. Allow me to try and correct the record in defense of myself, and hopefully the truth.

I apologize to the admins ahead of time, I struggle with being concise at the best of times, but I don't know how to condense the following any more than I have here. There is so much to comb through both with what the other user did say and things they left out, things that are mentioned out of hand that dramatically alter the framing and context and even the facts, and I'd like to address all of it. I've shortened parts that to me justified another 2 or 3 paragraphs of focus, and I even deleted 3 entire sections to make this post shorter. I'm not asking for special treatment, but for fair treatment.

Addressing the Assertion of "No Consensus"

A formalized RfC is not the only method of consensus building, per WP:CON, specifically WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS, and @BootsED has made incorrect reference to a topic on this point (their link goes to the correct topic, but its presentation and incorrect title here falsely frame it away from an objective reading). The topic in which consensus was reached was titled Undue weight in "Issues", in which another editor explained why they had added the undue tag to the Issues section. In that topic there were a small number of perceived problems which were worked on to be solved. If you follow that discussion, you will note a number of things: 1) I did not create that topic noting the issues within the issues section 2) My participation there shows my immediate and consistent good faith differing to other editors suggestions and recommendations for improving the section 3) There is not a single point in the discussion in which I argue any sort of "I'm right, you're wrong" or similar, demonstrating that the exact opposite is my default response to perspectives counter to mine 4) The absence of any participation by @BootsED whatsoever, either as the discussion was unfolding or with any attempt to revive the discussion to note their apparent disagreement with the outcome, and; 5) The most obvious agreement was that the Economy section needed to be longer/expanded as all cited WP:RS noted its importance as an issue in the election, and its short length did not reflect that fact well. After reading through that discussion, you can note @BootsED make his first bold edit to the "Economy" issue HERE, not terribly long after the other user removed the "undue weight" tag from the section in line with the referenced consensus building topic, and that their bold edit noticeably reduced the length of the section, obviously opposite the goal of the consensus building discussion.

Addressing assertions of WP:OWNERSHIP vis a vis "False Consensus", & speculation of WP:IDONTLIKE

When I reverted @BootsED's edit to that section of the article, I stated in the edit notes that this was done to uphold a consensus that had been reached recently per the talk page, and simultaneously requested the user to discuss before making further bold edits to that section to conform with both WP:CON & WP:CTOP by conforming with WP:DICC. You then see here @BootsED restoring their challenged edit and asserts that I was falsely claiming a consensus. If you follow the various talk topics, you will note that while @BootsED does garner support on other points of disagreement (EX: if the term "lawfare" should be used in the lede, or; if there was WP:OR in an edit concerning polling data), you will note a glaring lack of any support for this specific point of "No Consensus"/"False Consensus" which he has continued to raise. Despite the noticeable lack of any support for this assertion from other editors, @BootsED continued to challenge the prior consensus building effort that had been done HERE first by asserting that it had not happened at all by ignoring my reference to the other, prior topic, then asserting that the topic had no consensus on the subject, and to this day still continues to insist it is a falsehood I am pushing to "prohibit editing" despite the fact that I have maintained from the first revert diff forward that a bold edit to that section should be discussed first and that is it. At one point while trying to find another way to explain my points, I used the term "final" version when making reference to the version of the section prior to his bold edits. Ever since, he has continued to try and reframe this usage as though I am engaging in WP:OWNERSHIP behavior over the section, which he has all but directly accused me of throughout this disagreement over editing this specific section. This is where my consideration of potential WP:IDONTLIKE comes in, as I could not otherwise explain: 1) The constantly aggressive assertions insisting there had been no prior consensus and accusing me of fabricating a claim of consensus to engage in WP:OWNERSHIP, and; 2) The consistent refusal to attempt to gain a (new) consensus which would easily have solved this perceived issue once and for all. As I write this now I still do not understand what could presumably explain the behavior, outside of: not liking that the edit was reverted; not liking the idea that I could have been right on an issue, or; not liking the idea that they could have been wrong on an issue. There was no support for the user's edit, no support for their assertion that there was no consensus, and no attempt to either let it go or seek to problem solve via compromise. On this point, if absolutely nothing else, I am at a complete loss to understand a different, more sensible explanation than those three possibilities.

Refuting false assertion of "I'm always right, you're always wrong" logic

I have already noted elsewhere in this reply examples verifying that this is an absolute fabrication, and indeed that @BootsED has themselves engaged in this sort of behavior they have accused me of. The most glaring example which by itself makes one wonder why @BootsED would continue to push this obvious falsehood: Here @BootsED once again would make this assertion that I was refusing to accept being wrong about anything, that I was insisting I was right about everything and insisting that they were wrong about everything. Here is the message by me in which that WP:GASLIGHT reply was made in response to. I note no less than 3 points in that prior message in which I was acknowledging that they had made a correct point and thus where I had been previously incorrect. No other exchange between myself and @BootsED is as black and white crystal clear as this on this issue. The fact that they continue to make such statements after this is why I have no qualms about calling it exactly what it is: an outright lie. There is no misunderstanding it after that. I challenge them to directly answer why they made such a slanderous and false assertion directly in response to a message which clearly shows such an assertion to be false? Whatever else one may come to conclude about any of this, certainly one would be unreasonable to assert that the evidence would show that I have shown "repeated insistence that he is right and I am wrong", as they claim. Even the example they have provided to try and "prove" that point, doesn't. It shows my belief that I had proven my side of the issue, and asking them if they could disprove from the opposite side of said issue. I did not say "I am right, you are wrong", I said "I'm sure I am right, but can you prove me wrong?" Seems rather unreasonable to misrepresent that in the manner they have done here.

"Despite his interpretations being unanimously rejected...continued to insist his edits and interpretations of policy not disputed by at least..."

A bluntly false framing in which this user decides to try and make it seem as though there is any support for their position or that my position is outright unreasonable, and it just makes it even more confusing. "Despite his interpretations being unanimously rejected by other editors multiple times, TheRazgriz has continued to insist his edits and interpretations of policy not disputed by at least three editors cannot be removed." This really comes across as if their justification for their stance is just whataboutism, specifically "what about that other time where you were wrong?" Someone can be right about some things and wrong about others. "A broken clock is right twice a day" is a popular phrase for a reason. You cannot just dismiss because "Raz was wrong about other, unrelated things." There is no "unanimous" view on this at the time of this NB being authored, there is as of yet not a single editor which has voiced a shared view with them on this or attempted to at least counter my view on this. Furthermore, the linked/cited message they refer to shows no such claim to be valid, this idea that my interpretation of policy needs 3 editors to overturn...frankly, that is just nonsense. It isn't a matter of overturning personal opinions on policy, its about abiding by a policy they refuse to recognize, in letter or in spirit, even in the compromised manner in which I have given them to consider. I'm not sure what purpose is better served by refusing a consensus compromise and instead taking this action to escalate to admins.

Concerning the closing of a Talk topic

The talk page which I closed was no longer active, and no attempt had been made to revive it, and it seemed to be misunderstood. I closed it with a summary which @BootsED themselves admitted was accurate as far as its summary relating to the issue with the "Economy" section (though disagreeing with a different part of the summary describing other issues as having snowballed, which I in retrospect agreed that was an inaccurate way to describe the other issues, I could have and should have found a more accurate descriptor). I did not challenge the reversal of the closure whatsoever, nor did I challenge the opposition from my referring to the other matters as snowballed, and agreed with point brought up by @Pbritti on my talk page HERE discouraging closing of topics I myself have been involved in. That is in-line with WP:CLOSE and good advice anyway, and I have not attempted to close any topics since (and don't plan to again in future).

Refuting allusion to events surrounding the Talk closure

I do absolutely reject the false framing here by trying to assert that in some sort of "response to having my closure un-closed" I then would start making arguments from my perspective on WP:RS and WP:OR, and the assertion that they are "unanimously rejected by multiple editors" when other users have given credit to parts of my arguments and interpretations, such as: HERE, where a user on the NB still disagreed with my interpretation but gives credit to my line of argument. I also had been making my arguments relating to such issues well before @BootsED even created the NB relating to the closure, as seen throughout THIS topic, so again this framing is false, which appears to try and make it seem as if I perhaps went on some sort of WP:DE spree, at least that is the takeaway I was left with upon reading just that specific portion of the initial NB topic.

Concering alleged "refusal" to engage

Follow the link they provided. Then see just how many back and forths we had each had leading up to that point. Then return that that diff and re-read what I stated there. Regardless of if you agree with the point I made there or not, of if you would take either of our "sides" on that issue, certainly one cannot agree that this is an example of me "refusing to engage". Furthermore, while WP does indeed highly ask for participation in discussions and such, I find no rule, guideline, or even essay which notes that I am required to engage with someone until they don't want to engage with me anymore. I am not their toy or other plaything. I get to decide if I wish to continue to engage or not, and what I wish to engage with or not, and I do not find it reasonable to suggest that I have no free agency in this regard.

Clarifying that my position is that the 2020 conspiracy is long-settled as FALSE, and my edit should not have been misconstrued to claim I believed otherwise

This is largely unimportant, but many aspects of this history of back and forths seem to me to be getting confused in relation to these specific points. Ignore if you like, this is mostly me getting this off my chest because I am sick of being repeatedly misrepresented on this point. I was trying to take the meat and potatoes of the edit @BootsED had done there, and tried to do what I believed to be cleaning it up in a better way. At a passive read, the first thought I had about their edit there was that it came across as "hammering the point". "Gee, I wonder if the reader really gets the point that it was all a big lie? Sure we've led this horse to water, but surely we can dunk their head under for a bit just to make sure, right? Should we hold their hand a little more? Perhaps yet more weighted language will help them really get how false the falsehood falsely is?" And none of that comes from an opposition to calling it a falsehood on-face, only that I wanted to try and tone down what I saw as over-editorializing language to more naturally present the point to the reader. What I can only surmise is that the @BootsED suffered a hiccup in judgement with respect to this particular issue. When all you have is a hammer, every screw looks like a nail. All he saw was "false" go away, and they decided I was challenging the validity of calling it a falsehood at all. In light of the rest of the context as I've laid out for my actions here, I hope whoever does care to read this comes away at least understanding that I was never challenging if it is or isn't false or if it could be referred to as such, only trying to do a good faith edit that ended up being disagreed with. I don't see FALSE as the only acceptable way to talk about a falsehood, much less each and every time it is mentioned. That to me is an Einstellung effect which I do not suffer from or share. I did not take it kindly that this was misrepresented in the first place, and it frankly pissed me off to have that mischaracterization repeated multiple times over a disagreement over grammatical and sentence structure edit disagreement from the editor I had made the correction to. I do believe my reply of "Your Majesty" then seems to be at least much more understood...though in retrospect, it was unwise.

Concerning WP:UNCIVIL behaviors

I apologize, but this will have to be the lengthiest as it is the most serious of concerns here, and the specifics require me to overcome the false framing presented by the other User. As admitted by @BootsED, when I noticed he had taken offense from my statements relating to them having a potential unaddressed bias which could be effecting their editing on this WP:CTOP subject matter, I apologized (to be clear, I did so twice. Once within one of the many back-and-forth replies immediately after, and a second time where I specifically apologized on his talk page which he makes mention of above, as I wanted to make sure it didn't get lost in the heated discussion). I stated in the message here that my intention was not to personally offend, only to call attention to what I perceived as a potential issue. When @BootsED made it clear that they had taken that statement as a personally offensive statement, I immediately apologized to clear the air and hopefully reinforce that our disagreement should be done as a matter of "professional" disagreement, not personal attacks and uncharitable assumptions. Perhaps they do not accept that apology, but they have admitted above to recognizing it as such. I stand by that apology, I meant that apology, and it is very important to me to apologize the moment I have caused someone an unjustified offense. It is a point of personal responsibility, regardless of if I will or will not be forgiven. First action that Offended me Here in the above NB message after acknowledging the apology, they then follow up that admission by whitewashing their own actions afterwards to remove context from later actions I would take. Later on, in the RfC relating to the use of "false" in relation to "lawfare" claims and such, another Users comment about why they voted "SUPPORT" highlighted to me something I had not noticed prior: That the RfC was also over if using "false" in relation to the 2020 election fraud conspiracy pushed by Trump was valid or not. This confused me, as there had previously not been any discussion or noted disagreement with such, and this greatly offended me as it appeared to make me or anyone taking any sort of "OPPOSE" stance as also seeming to support the WP:FRINGE view that defends the conspiracy as being valid...something I have not done, certainly not in the context of any Wikipedia page. I made it crystal clear this allusion offended me greatly. At no point did @BootsED offer even a fake apology for the presumed offense given, instead not only defending their view that it belonged as part of the RfC, but also doubling down on the allusion itself by making the false assertion that I was "now agreed" with referring to that conspiracy as false, this time more directly asserting that I had stood in opposition to that at some prior point in time. Reinforcing the Offense as intentional Despite multiple efforts to clarify my position and request that they retract these inaccurate allusions, @BootsED outright refused and instead demonstrated what seemed to be passive-aggressive uncivil behavior. His reply here seemed to me to not be done out of a position of assuming good faith, but instead out of a personally uncharitable assumption that they wished to reinforce at my expense. Arguments do not necessarily always have to be "fair" per se, but they should be done with civility and assuming good faith unless given a clear reason to assume otherwise. I do not see that reply as assuming good faith towards me and my position. It would have been simple to say simply "No offense intended", "I'm sorry you took it that way", etc. Instead, passive aggressive reinforcement of the offense is what was given. And when it is @BootsED who has caused an offense, they repeatedly refuse to accept that offense was either given or taken, and don't even offer a fake apology to clear the air and proceed in good faith. If I could offer apology, twice, for a single offense out of a desire to want to move forward in good faith with a disagreement, why is @BootsED unwilling to do a fraction of the same when the shoe is on the other foot and they are the party from which offense has been either given or taken? Why do they instead do nothing less than explicitly reinforce the perceived bad faith? So I called that repeated choice out. And at that time, again, they could then have chosen to recognize the error. Again, they did not apologize or otherwise seek to move towards a fully good faith interaction. Instead, they send this message, which serves as nothing more than a way to assert that I have done everything wrong and they have done everything right...which they then with zero irony would go on to accuse me of doing later on.

After all of this, I still wanted to work in good faith. I drew a line in the sand with the users outright attempt at WP:GASLIGHT by asserting I was engaging in an "I'm always right, you're always wrong" capacity DIRECTLY in response to my message acknowledging I was wrong and they were right on no less than 3 different points. That to me was a point of nearly no return...but still I tried. I offered an olive branch. Either take the olive branch and we can move forward in good faith, walk away if we cannot, or engage in bad faith and have it escalated. The user seemed to take the olive branch, but instead of seeking good faith compromise, the user demanded that I promise not to make further edits. When I indicated that "good faith" includes good faith opposition, and offered a possible compromise and ASKED if that is something they could agree to...they authored this NB topic. So here we are.

This ends my "testimony", as it were. We are all biased to ourselves, and as I am sure is the case with all disagreements: There is "their side", "my side" and "the truth" is somewhere in the middle. The only real question is a matter of degrees. I have not addressed assertions posited by certain others here, because again I am not good at being concise. Did you really WANT this to be twice the size? I think not. If Admins would like to ask me about those other things, I am more than happy to answer, I am just trying to be considerate of your time and patience.

To the admins who read all of this, you have my respect. This is a bit much even for me, but again I didn't know how else to condense it further than this. Perhaps you and others see an obvious way to do that, but it isn't to me. This is something I struggle with IRL, I don't mean to be a burden on your time. I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me, in whole or in part, or if you feel you want to take some action against me. These are all your choices, not mine. All I want to do now is again thank you for your time, and especially if you read every word, thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving me a real and honest chance to explain myself and my side of the story in my own uncensored words. I promise I really will try to keep it as short as I can if you wish to ask me any questions. Thank you. Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 03:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

TheRazgriz, your apology for taking up our time is appreciated, and I accept that you're not being so verbose on purpose, but it still makes it very, very hard to engage with you. It seems to me that you defend yourself at length against a lot of charges that are a matter of opinion (such as whether your actions show "immediate and consistent good faith", whether your interpretations of policy on article talk have been successfully challenged, etc, etc), while failing to write a single word about the important sourcing matter described by TarnishedPath + BootsED immediately above your post, including how you reject NYT while pushing usage of WP:POST. That is egregious, and suggests your grip on the reliability of sources is tenuous (and also tendentious). This, cited by BootsED, is downright wikilawyering. I apologize if you did address this somewhere above and I missed it; I did read the whole, but I admit my eyes were trying to glaze over. The same thing keeps happening, probably not just to me, at article talk. A pageblock from 2024 United States elections and its talkpage seems an absolute minimum of a sanction here; your editing of the article is tendentious, and, however much you apologize for it, your use of the talkpage in defense of that editing is destructive and ruinous. See also my comments on your own page about bludgeoning article talk. Bishonen | tålk 06:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC).

As I addressed here, my defense for using NYP was based on my apparent outdated recollection of the WP:RS list/consensus. I had recalled that just a couple of years ago the conensus was "Generally Reliable" on most subjects and that for the issue of politics it was "No consensus" on if it was or was not reliable. This was pointed out by others to be incorrect as that that had changed. I confirmed that to be true, and admitted my fault openly.

Also, I am not challenging NYT, that is a mischaracterization of my position there. Specifically I was challenging the use of 1 article based on 2 issues: 1) The 2 credited authors are, according to their own biographical information, a Graphics Journalist and a Graphics Editor, and 2) The piece they had authored spoke in very authoritative terms and tone on a scholastic field in which neither author are authorities to speak in such a way. Neither author, as far as any of the research I conducted could find, have any formal or informal education on the subjects of Political Science or Law. Specifically, the issue was that not only were these 2 non-authorities being cited at all, but also being directly quoted at length within the citation, the entirety of which was just their personal opinion presented as authoritative fact.

I have taken no issue with any other sourcing, from NYT or otherwise, as I see no issues with how those other pieces are represented, but the way this was being used at no less than 3 different points within the article seemed problematic. Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 13:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Raz, you have stated your opposition to the NYT as a RS as per your comment here. BootsED (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Please stop gaslighting me, and admins at this point, by trying to yet again control and misconstrue the framing of a fact to better suit your opinion.

What I did state about NYT itself is a fact widely reported, such as here. I am allowed to have a personal opinion that the ONE and ONLY NYT article I directly challenged is likely a result of that hampered editorial standard having allowed an error. Nowhere do I argue that opinion as a fact or to justify an edit. You and everyone else who reads that clearly knows I am challenging your preferred citation by Yourish & Smart. Yourish & Smart are not NYT, and NYT is not Yourish & Smart. My challenge is against the authors legitimacy so speak on the matter they speak on in authoritative tone, combined with how you would like to use the citation in the article. That is literally it. It isn't deeper than that, so please stop digging.

What you do NOT see there is any assertion by me that comes close to me being in "opposition to the NYT as a RS". Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 22:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

"I offered a good faith compromise to settle our disagreement via WP:CON, and you have elected to do all of this?" @TheRazgriz, this is a highly unhelpful attitude and yet another misinterpretation of WP:PAG. WP:CON doesn't require that other editors compromise with those who are putting forward faulty policy positions. That's not how we do things around here. You need to start listening to other editors when you are wrong. No one is right all of the time. TarnishedPath^talk 10:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, no one is right all of the time. That is my point. Allow me to suggest that no is wrong all the time either.

So I ask: Can you explain how this is not an example of WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS, and what WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS would look like in practice as opposed to this example? I understand all other participants positions on their interpretations of other policies in other discussions (and their repudiation of mine), but no one (including you) have explained what or how I must be incorrect here on the issue of WP:CON. It is simply asserted that I must be wrong, because I have been wrong on other subjects. That is highly fallacious, and I believe you can understand that. Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 13:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote: You need to start listening to other editors when you are wrong (emphasis mine) I didn't write that you are wrong on all occasions. TarnishedPath^talk 13:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that. With that in mind, and understanding that something needs to be said in order for me to listen to it, could you answer and explain the question I posted previously? Thank you. Razgriz, the Red Wizard (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Given that I didn't participate in that discussion and wasn't involved in or witness any editing that went along with that discussion I don't feel like I can give a good interpretation. TarnishedPath^talk 04:41, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

User:RocketKnightX Disruptive Editing

RocketKnightX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The user had been involved in an Edit War at 15.ai, when I proposed a TBAN for RocketKnightX in response to their persistent disruptive editing of 15.ai, I dropped the complaint when they said they would stop [77]. They were invited to the AfD discussion and then went to 15.ai and deleted the AfD notice [78] and declared my policy based removal of WP:NOSOCIAL and WP:YOUTUBE external links to be vandalism [79]. Their edit summary and some of their activity demonstrates a lack of maturity[80]. He was also warned for making personal attacks [81] coupled with their past activity on Wikipedia such as this edit summary[82] I think some manner of intervention is warranted at this point. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 10:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Removing the AfD template is pretty disruptive, as the template has clear in-your-face text that says "do not remove this notice before the discussion is closed". Talking nonsense about vandalism in the edit summary when reverting a well-explained edit here is not good either. Doing these things after promising to stop "causing issues" at the article is block-worthy. Blocked 31 hours. Bishonen | tålk 11:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC).

Part of me wouldn't be surprised if RocketKnightX is involved in the sock/SPA disruption at the afd, or even a User:HackerKnownAs sock. WHile it wouldn't surprise me if true I don't suspect enough to take to SPI, afterall the evidence would be behavioural and there are some differences in behaviour. Lavalizard101 (talk) 12:45, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I do not think they're a HKA Sock given the wildly different behaviors, but RK was suspected of being someone else's Sock in an ANI discussion that produced no results [83] Brocade River Poems (She/They) 13:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Tacotron2 attempted WP:VOTESTACK

Tacotron2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I am just creating this complaint as a sub-section because it is directly related to RocketKnightX's activity. After having a discussion where they were made aware that The person who solicits other people inappropriately may be subject to administrative review if the behavior is severe enough.[84], my colleague apparently took that as a sign to hit the campaign trail. When I saw they solictied RocketKnightX[85] and others[86][87] to the AfD I left a warning [88] about their canvassing. They proceeded to canvass more anyway [89][90][91]. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 14:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't see your first message. It wasn't done intentionally. Tacotron2 (talk) 17:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

You know, I can probably believe that you didn't see my warning. What I do not believe is that you didn't know what you were doing was wrong when an admin already told that people who solicit (i.e the people asking others to the vote) inappropriately may be subject to administrative review. After that message you:

• Canvassed a known disruptive edit warrior [92]
• Canvassed someone whom you believed would support your outcome because they believed a source was reliable.[93]
• Canvassed someone who said use the source until someone contests [94]
• Canvassed someone who voted keep the last AfD [95]
• Canvassed someone who voted keep the last AfD [96]
• Canassed someone who voted keep the last AfD. [97]

Notably, you didn't provide a notice to any editor who was involved in editing 15.ai who might reasonably be expected to vote delete, nor did you canvass anyone who voted delete in the last AfD. Why you felt it necessary to specifically invite Elmidae when you pinged them in your response to the AfD I also do not know or understand. Notably, you did not invite the following editors who were active recently at 15.ai Polygnotus, Thought 1915, YesI'mOnFire, Sj, Cooldudeseven7, The Hand That Feeds You, or the editors who voted Delete last time such as LilianaUwU, Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum, and Cinadon36.

This is pretty clear WP:VOTESTACKING. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 23:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Not done intentionally? In the discussion on my talk page (User talk:Rsjaffe#AfD Issues), you were worried about being labeled as canvassed and I made the distinction that we are generally looking at the canvasser, not the canvassed. This was in a discussion about what sort of behavior merits reporting to ANI. And after all that, you claim ignorance of the issue? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest with you. I had a brain fart. I thought canvassing was coordinating off Wikipedia to stack a vote. I thought that if you did it on a user's Wikipedia talk pages directly, it wasn't canvassing. I don't know why I thought that. I read something similar to that somewhere else on Wikipedia and I must have misinterpreted it, where asking editors to contribute to a discussion was encouraged. I'm sorry about that. Tacotron2 (talk) 21:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

OK, read WP:CAN, and please reply that you understand and will follow the behavioral guideline from now on. Thanks. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. I will follow the behavioral guidelines. Sorry again. Tacotron2 (talk) 01:02, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

A Summary

This, like many cases here at WP:ANI, is a conduct dispute that began as a content dispute. The content dispute was at 15.ai, and was over what the infobox should say was the status of the web site. Some editors said that the web site was under maintenance (and temporarily down for maintenance) and should say that. Other editors said that the web site was abandoned and should say that.

A request was made, on 5 October 2024, for moderated discussion at DRN by an editor who was then indefinitely blocked for unrelated conduct. However, other editors took part, including User:BrocadeRiverPoems and User:RocketKnightX. The DRN is archived at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_250#15.ai. I then started an RFC on the status of the web site, at Talk:15.ai. That was meant to resolve the content dispute.

User:HackerKnownAs then filed a complaint at WP:ANI against User:BrocadeRiverPoems on 16 November 2024, that is archived at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1172#BrocadeRiverPoems_behavioral_issues. That complaint and the reply were both Too Long to Read. User:HackerKnownAs and some other editors were then blocked for sockpuppetry.

User:RocketKnightX continued to edit-war, and User:BrocadeRiverPoems proposed a topic-ban against RocketKnightX from the page 15.ai. RocketKnightX said that they would stop edit-warring. At about this point, that ANI was closed.

User:BrocadeRiverPoems then nominated the article 15.ai for deletion on 2 December 2024. I have not (as of the time of this post) done a source analysis on the article, and so do not have an opinion on the AFD at this time.

User:BrocadeRiverPoems closed the RFC as an involved snow close on 4 December 2024 to omit the status of the web site from the infobox, because there are no reliable sources stating either that it is under maintenance or that it is abandoned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs)

Proposal 1: Site Ban for User:RocketKnightX

I think that the conduct of User:RocketKnightX is a strong net negative for the community. They agreed to stop edit-warring, possibly only in order to avoid being topic-banned, and have resumed edit-warring. They removed the AFD banner, which is very clearly forbidden, while accusing User:BrocadeRiverPoems of vandalism. I think that RocketKnightX has exhausted the patience of the community and should be banned by the community.

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support When I looked at their history, they have a history of incivility, borderline WP:NATIONALIST editing[98][99],[100] where they continue act disruptively within the Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Armenia-Azerbaijan and a number of other problems that indicate WP:NPOV and WP:CIR issues[101] including at one point bizarrely restoring a massive plot synopsis that another editor had created [102] that had been removed by two different editors for being too long [103][104]. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 23:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I see Robert enumerates exactly the same problems with RocketKnightX's editing as I did above, where I gave them a 31-hour block (currently an active block) for them. The only difference is that Robert assumes bad faith of RocketKnightX's undertaking to stop edit warring ("They agreed to stop edit-warring, possibly only in order to avoid being topic-banned, and have resumed edit-warring"). We're not supposed to do that, and I'll point out that RKX agreed to stop on 18 November and only went back to disruptive actions at 15.ai (not actually to edit warring, but to the aforementioned removal of the AfD banner and accusation of vandalism) again on 7 December, three weeks later. The agreement to stop in November doesn't look to me like part of a heinous plan to continue disrupting; it seems at least as likely that they had simply forgotten about it three weeks later. It was six words that look angrily dashed-off; not some elaborate undertaking. The whole notion that RKX has already "exhausted the patience of the community" seems weirdly excessive. I stand by my 31-hour block as the more appropriate sanction. Bishonen | tålk 13:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC).

  I do feel that WP:CIR is a very valid, chronic concern with this editor regardless of edit warring, specifically the ability to communicate with other editors and abide by consensus. In October they asked me what they should do in cases of disputes. When I told them what they should do, about dispute resolution, etc. they responded Too hard. This site is the hardest thing to do.[105]. Coupled with dropping edit summaries like "I said stop!" and "deal with it" and their WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude on talkpages [106] and I'm not really sure what the community is expected to do when the user has self-proclaimed that learning dispute resolution is too hard. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 14:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You're bringing up edit summaries from months ago, this article has been the subject of way too many project discussions already and I think that comments made in October have already been dealt with when those discussions were closed. If there have been recent issues, you can share those edits but don't dig up the past. I'm with Bishonen here. Yes, this is not an enormously productive editor but this seems like overkill. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:58, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I must confess, I am a tad confused as to how one demonstrates chronic, intractable behavioral problems problems without bringing up the past behavior considering as they once again did the same behavior while also removing the AfD notice from the article. [107]. Oh well. It would seem I have a completely incorrect understanding of what this whole "chronic behavioral problem" business is. Mea culpa. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 13:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

BrocadeRiverPoems, it seems like you rely too much on coming to ANI, AN and SPI when you encounter an editor you disagree with who might have had moments of disruption. Don't seek to get every adversarial editor blocked from discussions or the site. Learn how to talk out problems instead of coming to noticeboards, seeking topic bans and site blocks. It's like using a hammer to get a fly to move. Learn proportionally. ANI is for serious behavioral problems, not just for editors you might find annoying. An overreliance on ANI starts to reflect poorly on you and whether you have the ability to amicably resolve disputes instead of trying to eliminate contrary editors. That's my honest opinion. At times, you can seem a little relentless. Learn to collaborate with those whom you disagree or, if that fails, keep some distance between you. That's what most of us longtimers do. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Bishonen. The short block is justified. Leaping to an indefinite for the same offence is premature. My patience isn't exhausted (yet). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:41, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Upd Edit

Upd Edit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has made edits only on the Shahi Jama Masjid (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) article, trying to promote a single claim that a hindu temple existed beneath the mosque. Though they cite books as sources, the reliability and verifiability of these sources are questionable. (See 2024 Sambhal violence) Their edits violate WP:NPOV, and WP:DUE,

• Issues:
  1. Their contributions are solely focused on the Shahi Jama Masjid article. Edit count
  2. WP:V and WP:RS Violations: The user relies on obscure or unverifiable sources to support controversial claims.
  3. WP:NPOV Violation: Edits consistently emphasize the unverified temple claim, creating bias and disregarding alternative historical perspectives.
  4. WP:DUE Violation: Though sourced,Their edits focus too much about the temple claim, even though it's not the most important part of the mosque's story. The mosque itself should be the main focus.
  5. WP:EDITWAR and Disruptive Behavior: The user reverts changes made by other editors. Example:
  1. Moved page to wrong title
  2. reverted
  3. reverted
  4. reverted
  5. reverted …
  
• Request:
  1. Investigate their editing patterns and advanced skills for potential WP:SOCK violations.
  2. Review whether the user’s edits and behavior align with Wikipedia policies on WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:DUE.
  

Thank you! - Cerium4B • Talk? • 15:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

A couple of days ago, a fellow editor claimed that I was a sock of Kautilya3 and nobody paid any heed.

Today, Cerium4B—who is yet to make a single edit to the article talk-page despite my and Kautilya3's consistent demands—has the chutzpah of raising a barely coherent complaint with no substantiation. Notably, my ANEW report against Cerium4B was not acted upon because an administrator thought Kautilya's reinstatement of my content (and a warning to Cerium4B) to have resolved the issue.

In not unrelated news, someone else, with similar editorial proclivities, believes me to be a sock of someone else. What next? Upd Edit (talk) 16:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support page-block - Given that this user is simply a single purpose account dedicated to relentless POV pushing and edit warring on this article, a page block (both talkpage/article) seems to be the way here before supporting a broader topic ban on him. CharlesWain (talk) 19:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

It would perhaps add more credence to your suggestion if you choose to take part at the t/p discussion, as requested, than hit the revert button and request sanctions. Upd Edit (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - When I first came by this article (which is the subject of a current dispute in India), I found an edit war between the filer and User:Upd Edit, with the former repeatedly deleting the well-sourced content added by the latter. There was also an AN3 complaint against the filer, which can be consulted to see that their reverts cited no policy-based reasons whatsoever.

I gave WP:CTOP alerts to both the ediors (as well as another editor who was involved at that stage), and pinged the filer as well as the other editor from the talk page, inviting them to discuss their objections on the talk page. I have also explained that reverts need to be policy-based, and cannot be instances of WP:CENSOR or WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

I was surprised to see that the filer has done a yet another revert today of the same nature, and hasn't written anything on the talk page. This clearly indicates a restart of the edit war, and I believe the filer should be sternly warned, if not sanctioned for thier continued edit warring.

As for "disruptive editing", I see none from User:Upd Edit, but plenty of it from the filer. This complaint itslef lacks evidence and presents the filer's self-assured judgements about the content, which should have been rightly discussed on the talk page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Kautilya3. Upd Edit (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

• This is at least the third time that this editor has been dragged to a noticeboard, and this seems just as baseless as the others. Where are the diffs of misbehaviour? The only diffs that we have been given show that the user has been reverted, and it is just as likely that the reverter was wrong as that they were. Talk about it on the article talk page, as it is a content issue. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:06, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Phil Bridger. Upd Edit (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

• User:Cerium4B, will you consider participating in article talk page discussions before bringing an editor to ANI or AIV? I see you recommending other editors go to the talk page to discuss disagreements but I don't see you there, too. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You also had this ANEW case you didn't respond to, Cerium4B. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, @Liz

I should have participated on talkpage. But, in this case, I couldn’t figure out how to engage with this user. Upds edits relied on unverified, questionable sources to push a controversial claim, which multiple editors and I felt was irrelevant to the mosque’s main topic. These edits violated WP:NPOV and WP:DUE policies, and I believed they needed administrative attention. Their Talk:Shahi Jama Masjid#Upcoming edits proposal (focused on hindu things) is also irrelevant to this article, where Kautilya3 is collaborating with Upd.

On the ANEW report, I didn’t respond because Upd had already broken the WP:RRR rule, before I did. I thought admins would review the full situation. If I was found to have violated the rule for abuse, I would have accepted any decision against me.
Upd is a new user but has a high level of skill, which raised concerns about potential WP:PROJSOCK violations. This is why I believed this matter needed proper investigation.
When an experienced editor like Kautilya supported those biased edits, it added to my concern. Both were ignoring neutrality, I believe. which made me feel admin intervention was necessary.
And I am also a new user with about 1700 edits trying to learn the policies. I do not have much experience but was trying my best to address the issue.

I still strongly believe this case requires a deep investigation by the administrator. - Cerium4B • Talk? • 19:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

What is an "unverified, questionable source"? I see no discussion at the talk-page, challenging the reliability of my sources. The very binary Hindu-Muslim way of seeing things is at the crux of the larger political issue but be that may, you are welcome to join talk-page discussions with coherent non-IDHT arguments. Upd Edit (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Just discovered that 18 days ago Upd Edit was brought to the wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1172#Upd_Edit_-_project_sock? for project sock,

when they had only 5 edits!

In a comment, Phil Bridger expressed opposition to the report.

Many of you couldn't reach a decision on this matter! - Cerium4B • Talk? • 19:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Despite me asking for a page block above for Upd edit due to persistent edit warring, he still has made the third revert in 24 hours on the article. [108] This is not a single incident but part of a chain of reverts by this user in this week alone [109][110][111] and similar POV pushing trying to point out a supposedly "Hindu" origin for this mediaeval period Mosque through highlighting of Hindu mythology that has no relevance to it. [112] A page block is much needed for this user. CharlesWain (talk) 09:32, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous suggestion. He is the only contributor that knows anything about the subject! Rest everybody else is just throwing stones. Please get them to discuss the issues on the talk page instead of messing with the mainspace. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

And what is your own role on the page? Here I see you deleting a block of text and calling it "restoring improvements"! Did you explain your issues on the talk page? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

What is actually ridiculous is that you have to support a POV pusher and that too in such a desperate manner. Knowing something about the topic gives him no right to edit war constantly with different editors, and clearly he is trying to push a view here about pre-islamic origin to the mosque by undue emphasis on unrelated hindu mythology about this place in the article that clearly does not belong there. No scholar appears to be making a connection between Kalki and the Mosque and Upd Edit was misrepresenting an academic's quote in order to corroborate such a tenuous connection on the talkpage. In any case, the page has been extended confirmed protected because of his disruption. CharlesWain (talk) 16:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

He is only trying to defend his own content that has been improperly deleted. Every one of us has a right to do so. Branding it as "edit warring" won't get you anywhere. If he is POV-pushing, you need to demonstrate it on the talk page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• This seems like a content dispute which won't get resolved on ANI. Please talk this out on the article talk page with arguments and reliable sources, not just accusations. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Disruption and personal threat

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Vartgul is going on a rampage and removing well-sourced information from many articles and when their edits are revered they turned to personal threats. See contributions page for disruption. Threat is here[113]. Semsûrî (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Semsûrî does not create accurate content with sources in any of their edits. All the content they provide spreads views classified by the United Nations as those of a terrorist organization, promoting misinformation that supports terrorism. They edit content in a non-encyclopedic manner, based solely on their own political views. Vartgul (talk) 16:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

• That is a legal threat, not a "personal threat". Indeffed.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:40, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Incivility by newbie

Bryan7778888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has been reverted and told off by @AstrooKai and me on account of their edits that reek of WP:BLP and WP:V violations and WP:OR, has doubled down in WP:IDNHT and resorted to making WP:NPA, WP:ASPERSION, WP:CRYSTAL and falsely accusing us of sockpuppetry on the flimsy grounds of happening to be editing some of the same topics (and in total ignorance of our edit histories). While I acknowledge being harsh in some comments in a knee-jerk reaction to such WP:CIR arguments on the offending editor, I believe that their continued replies mark them further into WP:NOTHERE and WP:BATTLEGROUND territory. Borgenland (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

All of this only began when I reverted their edit on the article Stacey (singer) and other alike edits on the articles Maloi (singer) and Colet (singer), where they added about the subject's ancestral descent without citing a source that would verify this. I told them that needs to be verifiable by citing a source, but they said that:

It is in the sources when they stated the places they where born. People in Bohol are Boholanos, People from Nueva Viscaya are ilocanos and people from Batangas are Tagalog. I believe for lack of better word, that it is your ignorance for not understand the sources better thank you.
— User:Bryan7778888 08:43, December 7, 2024 (UTC)

They were actually referring to demonyms which are the terms used to refer to people who were born from a place, but they added it to the articles as the subjects' ancestral descents. I explained it to them that "demonym" (which is the thing that they're referring to) and "descent" (ancestral or genealogical link) are two distinctive concepts. I told them that even these small details could be challenged by anyone. That is why it is important to be extremely careful in terms of verifiability when adding content to BLP articles. I was simply correcting their mistake and trying to guide them on how to do it right, but they justified their action by saying that:

Nueva Vizcaya and Nueva Viscaya is the same. Just like Filipinas and Pilipinas is the same. One is Spanish and the other is from a local. And 62.3% of Nueva Viscaya is Ilocano and Stacy speaks Ilocano. So it's very rendundant. You're simplyfighting to win and shame the other. At least be logical and professional.
— User:Bryan7778888 14:45, December 7, 2024 (UTC)

Meaning they were basing their assumption of the subjects' ancestral descent solely based on ethnic statistics. I told them that this was a violation of WP:NOR and WP:CRYSTALBALL, but they ignored all of this and personally attacked me and Borgenland, calling Borgen a "dictator" and accusing me of having Borgen as my alternative account.

This could have been avoided if they had just acknowledged and accepted their mistake, but they didn't WP:LISTEN and went ahead with these unacceptable behaviors instead. AstrooKai (Talk) 17:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I do wonder how I could have been rapidly editing in Syria [114] [115] and Poland [116] and commenting on offending user's TP [117] at the exact same time. Borgenland (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I also wonder on how a person with tens of thousands of edits and is inclined with politics and stuff would create a new account for music-related edits only. I don't think anyone would go through all the hard work to create a new account and establish there a reputation in music-related articles when they could have just done it in their first account in the first place. My user page literally contains every thing there is to know about me here on Wikipedia, and we both have very distinctive interests.

Additionally, why would I reply to your comments on talk pages if am "you"? This is hilarious. AstrooKai (Talk) 18:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Bryan7778888 has been editing for TWO days. You can assume that they don't understand Wikipedia policies and guidelines and as an experienced editor, you will need to explain them to them. How about we give them some time and grace to digest all of the information you have posted on their User talk page before coming to ANI?

This doesn't seem like an "chronic, intractable problem", it's just a new editor learning how things are done here. Assume ignorance, not maliciousness. You shouldn't have the same expectations of them as you would of an editor who has been active for a year. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:00, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I see that @AstrooKai has sent them the standard warning templates. In that case I hope I don't have to update it with something that would lead to further sanctions. Borgenland (talk) 14:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

BLP vandalism by PyrateDru

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User:PyrateDru has been vandalizing the MrBeast page to revert all mention of Ava Kris Tyson’s name to her deadname. Requesting indef.

Snokalok (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Assuming good faith and that they are just unaware of Wikipedia norms I've given them a warning for now. Lets hope they get it. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 17:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Snokalok, it's advised to try talking with an editor before posting a complaint about them to ANI, especially for a new, inexperienced editor. Try informing them before seeking a sanction. ANI is the place to come if other efforts to resolve a situation have failed. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:51, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that’s fair. Snokalok (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment by another user

User:Remsense appears to have made it their mission to stalk my contribution page and revert my edits, regardless of the context.

They just reverted two of my edits, demanding in both cases that I take it to the talk page, in one https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mary_II&oldid=prev&diff=1261805142, I was already trying to bring the issue to the talk page, and the second https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=1261805984&oldid=1261433489&title=German_Empire is just completely stupid as almost every single country page uses the greater coat of arms. The first dispute they had absolutely nothing to do with, and the second revert took place a few minutes later.

I don't necessarily want them blocked, but I just want them to leave me alone. I can't have a good faith discussion with somebody like this. OddHerring (talk) 01:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Not sure why this person considers me undoing two edits to pages on my watchlist that I disagreed with to be a conduct issue and not content disputes of the most routine kind, or why they think I care who they are beyond the totally unearned hyperaggression they seemingly express in response to the most trivial disagreements. Remsense ‥ 论 02:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You have not just reverted me twice:

Flags of Austria-Hungary‬ - 1 revert

Mongol Empire - 3 reverts (and he ganged up on me in the talk page with what I assume to be his friends.)

OddHerring (talk) 02:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, you're right. The added context really does give me pause, actually: the eye-popping rate of 7 reverts in 103 days—all unprovoked and with no reasoning whatsoever—is surely some sort of record for unbridled harassment on here. Remsense ‥ 论 02:19, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that they are STILL reverting my edits after I posted this. OddHerring (talk) 02:19, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You're not familiar with site norms (e.g. WP:ONUS, WP:BRD) or do not feel that they apply to you, and are simply not entitled to have your disputed changes published by default pending the expected "D" in BRD. Remsense ‥ 论 02:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Remense, to bring this a close, can you give this editor some space so they don't feel hounded? OddHerring, I don't think this needed to be brought to ANI. Know that all editors get reverted at times. You can expect it to happen in the future. If you have questions or they didn't leave an explanatory edit summary, approach the editor on their user talk page for more information. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any recommendations of means to register disagreements with edits I may have n the future, or is it best in your mind to just assume others will do so in my stead? That's the only thing I worry about: it's not exactly constructive to assume it's impossible for another person to feel harried somehow—to make it clear to third parties, I've interacted with this person twice, previously in August—but depending on the extent of those expectations I'm not sure how their changes wouldn't in effect become beyond reproach. Their demand on my talk page that I must "report them" if I disagree with their edits as opposed to anything like a typical consensus building process is not reasonable. Remsense ‥ 论 03:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Wanting to be left alone to edit in the way you want doesn't seem like something we should be encouraging. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Sean, there are other editors who can check an edit. You can assume when an editor comes to ANI that other editors will be looking at their contributions. I'm sorry, Remsense, but I don't understand the question you are asking me. I went looking at your User talk page to see what comment you were referencing but I didn't see anything that fit into what you were trying to say. If you want, we can move this to my own user talk page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You are right of course. I'm really just trying to encourage more of a 'nothing matters', 'meh', 'whatever' response to having one's edits reverted. I find it helps a lot. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with being reverted and having to defend by changes, but not if it means I have to do all the work and the other guy can just constantly say the same thing over and over again as if it proves anything (i.e. Talk:Mongol Empire). That's not a discussion, that's just obstruction. OddHerring (talk) 03:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Just for the record, calling an editor you are involved in dispute with an idiot and then linking it months later as evidence in an ANI dispute is one of the strangest maneuvers I've seen. [118] Brocade River Poems (She/They) 04:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, either you are an idiot or are arguing in bad faith. I will figure out a way to go around you now. —@OddHerring

Bruh – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 04:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

And if people chime in to support my positions, that's to be interpreted as my friends ganging up on them. I get I haven't been the most effective or patient communicator here, but I've felt expressly boxed out of any assumption of good faith on my part from the very beginning. Remsense ‥ 论 04:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

This guy thinks he knows more about the Mongol Empire than the actual Mongolians https://mn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Их_Монгол_Улс (seal is displayed prominently, featured article by the way), but whatever, I'm the asshole somehow. OddHerring (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 05:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Does this extend to the other editors who have opposed the addition of the seal as inappropriate?[119] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well yes, OddHerring, for trying to use an argument that falls apart if you think about it for more than two seconds. Are the only knowledgeable people on the Roman Empire from Rome? Are the only knowledgeable people on ancient Babylon the tour guides who live at the modern day ruins?

I can only speak for myself—I don't know how well you regard taking Genghis Khan to featured article status on this English Wikipedia (and with more than eleven citations!!!!)—but I immediately count over a dozen basic errors/omissions on that Mongolian Mongol Empire page, which anyone with the most basic smattering of knowledge of actual scholarship on the Mongols would spot.

And for the record, accusations of "ganging up" are not particularly appreciated here, particularly when, again, they fall apart when you think about them for a second. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You are clearly the one who doesn't know site norms, since you have repeatedly engaged in disruptive editing and edit warring against me. OddHerring (talk) 03:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I attempted to take the German Empire infobox issue to talk, and they have completely ignored it. Seems like they don't have any respect for WP:BRD either.

And no, it's not because they're doing something else. They have made three unrelated edits, and three unrelated reverts since this complaint started. OddHerring (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

If no one else has a problem with the edits here, then I guess I give up (in their words, I win by default) and they will be allowed to push their disputed changes, because I've been given zero indication that they have any intention of listening to me. Given the previous gem from August, it is not an unreasonable conclusion: this time around, they've already expressly told me to GFM and that they cannot perceive my actions as being in good faith, so I'm a bit strapped here, no? Remsense ‥ 论 04:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I would be willing to listen to you if you would:

1. Lose the snark.

2. Hold yourself to the same standard of evidence that you hold me to. OddHerring (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You made bold changes and they were contested. I explicitly asked you to elaborate on "we always use greater seals"—which is a novel observation on your part, with seemingly no basis in actual content guidelines—but you apparently feel it to be self-evident as to be enforceable across all applicable pages. That's something you need to explain, not me. Remsense ‥ 论 04:19, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

And that is the exact reason why I think you just have it out for me. What is the objection to my changes? Why are you opposed? OddHerring (talk) 04:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

So am I just not allowed to edit if somebody reverts me but won't take it to talk? Because that seems to be the rule here. OddHerring (talk) 04:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I ran an Editor Interaction Analyzer check to check on this. It doesn't seem to show substantial evidence of hounding. Since June 1st (roughly the time @OddHerring started editing extensively), neither editor consistently starts editing pages before the other. The overlap seems to be explained by a common interest in map games European history c. 1300-1914 (but maybe also 1936-1945). – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 04:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the levity, but the insinuation I'm a Paradox gamer is the meanest thing anyone's ever said about me on here. Remsense ‥ 论 04:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It would be helpful if Remsense explained their objections in detail and didn't just say that the onus was on OddHerring to explain the changes. It would also be helpful if OddHerring didn't use edit summaries like Enough with the crappy PNG and her husband's arms after she died. Take it to talk or get blocked. (Special:Diff/1261801292). Walsh90210 (talk) 04:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I know that's a bit rude, but most of the revert messages I get (in general) are like that and make similar demands. OddHerring (talk) 04:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Really not trying to be coy to prove a point here, but I guess the reason I haven't expressed my core objection of "the greater arms are useless at thumbnail size" is because I get the sense they'll just tell me to fuck off and that my concerns rooted in principles that're actually present in the MOS don't matter. Hopefully that's at least a little reasonable given the precedent discussed above.Remsense ‥ 论 04:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that greater coat of arms in the infobox should be the standard, I'm arguing that it is. And if you say that doesn't matter, you are arguing against consensus as a principle. OddHerring (talk) 04:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Walsh90210 et al., hopefully the dynamic is a bit more clear now as to why I'm having trouble with the OP's AGF, especially given that I'm tripping over all the rope they've lugged into the discussion with the apparent goal of trying to hang themselves. Unless anyone has other questions or concerns, I'll be tuning out now. Remsense ‥ 论 04:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

So just to be clear, they are now completely unwilling to take any disputes over editing to talk, but will continue to revert. If that isn't edit warring, I don't know what is. OddHerring (talk) 05:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind. A completely random third person reverted me instead. OddHerring (talk) 05:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

(To be clear, OP has already gotten their way on German Empire as I am too pessimistic in their AGF to try any more than I already have, and their dispute on Mary II has to be sorted out with another user who I happen to agree with. There isn't anything left to talk about as far as I am aware.) Remsense ‥ 论 05:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• I see that my attempt to deescalate this complaint was not of much use tonight. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I did appreciate the attempt, but I'm not sure there was much you could've done. Remsense ‥ 论 07:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think editors get hyper focused on their own disputes and don't realize that every.single.editor on the project has other editors they don't get along with and they coexist with each other by keeping their distance and avoiding provoking each other. Everyone here has disagreements. Those editors who last for decades are those that find a way to negotiate all of this and who focus on the work and not each other. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure if you're suggesting I've exhibited some shade of that myopia in this case, but I would submit there's a difference between "an editor that doesn't get along with another editor" and "an editor that can't get along with anyone". OP's is a comparatively small sample size, but all points so far speak to the latter characterization, if I'm being honest. They have never been civil to anyone who's challenged them, and I'm not sure I can agree that a permanent state of editing around them is a viable outcome for anyone else who draws their ire. Reading above, it's not only a clash of personalities: they're just blatantly wrong about how consensus works and what our standards are, and they've given us no reason to think they care about rectifying that. Remsense ‥ 论 08:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  Remsense, my comment was a general observation about how to edit on the project when there are editors you don't get along well with, it was not targeted to this specific dispute. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Liz Unsure how you tried to deescalate when you only talked to them. I will admit I was from the beginning not the most open minded here, but considering that all of my good points were ignored by every person replying, I feel like may have been a bit warranted. OddHerring (talk) 12:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

User LesbianTiamat

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LesbianTiamat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User LesbianTiamat has asked me to resign as an admin on grounds of Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing.[120] I have declined the request.[121] Her antagonism towards me appears to have originated with my reverting a number of their edits at Jefferson Davis, which was followed by discussion on the article talk page.[122] Their response to that discussion was to edit my user page in a manner that I believe can only be described as malicious.[123] This was quickly reverted and I posted a firmly worded caution on their talk page.[124] The discussion which followed was not IMO productive and was characterized by snark and a general reluctance to acknowledge that her conduct had been extremely inappropriate. This despite my requesting an uninvolved admin, Cullen328, to have a word with her given where things stood at the time.[125], which he kindly did. I am not going to post links to all the diffs in that discussion, but I would encourage anyone reviewing the matter to look at the editing history for LT's talk page as she heavily edited the conversation, including some of her own comments after I had replied to her. I would also encourage anyone reviewing this matter to take a look at the history of LT's user page from that period. While I found her responses to be troubling, and they did raise doubts in my mind as to her temperament, I had largely forgotten the matter when LT suddenly turned up on a long stale discussion[126] at User talk:LilianaUwU with their accusations of misconduct and their request for my resignation.

Both as an admin and editor, I take the community's trust very seriously and do not regard lightly any accusations of misconduct. I respectfully invite the community to review my conduct here and if anyone believes I have fallen short in my behavior, misused the tools, or demonstrated a pattern of POV pushing, as per LT's accusation, I am completely prepared to discuss any concerns. In particular I would note that LT seems to take very strong umbrage with a statement on my user page in which I make clear that owing to my disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID, that I generally refrain from editing in subject areas where that is likely to become an issue.

Unfortunately, I have rather serious concerns about LT's own behavior. I believe there is credible evidence of WP:HOUNDING,[127] and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior at the least. And this recent development has renewed my concerns as to whether or not she possesses the temperament required to be able to contribute effectively here. Frankly, her hostility towards me seems to have become something of an obsession. If there is a feeling that I'm off base here or over-reacting feel free to let me know. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I was just about to start my own topic against this user following my own experience with them, in which I attempted to confront them about their editing behavior and was was immediately dismissed and possibly even threatened despite my best efforts to assume good faith in them. Granted, they did respond later on, and I commend them for that, but that does not excuse their behavior. All of my concerns with them can be found in the revision I linked above. They are extremely problematic and needs to be dealt with. λ NegativeMP1 04:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

1. Ad Orientem: The old incident is over. We solved it and moved on. I don't get why people keep reigniting it. I had to remove it from my talk page because people kept adding fuel to a fire that should have been extinguished. I agreed to not do it - is that not what you wanted? Is that not the purpose of going to the talk page? It's over.
2. Ad Orientem: I'm not ready to bring up an ANI discussion regarding your adminship. I told you that I would do so when I had gathered the evidence, so that you have a chance to prepare a defense. I am not hounding, only carefully observing and gathering evidence for the proper procedure. I made the request for you to step down because I was on the same page. Timestamps will reveal that the award on LilianUwU's talk page was given before my comment. It was pure chance that I saw you there, Ad Orientem. I have no intention of hounding you. I will follow proper procedure as you said to. There will be no further word from me to you until it is time to post an ANI thread (except for this discussion, obviously).
3. NegativeMP1: I don't understand how you can interpret anything I've ever said in my entire history on Wikipedia as a threat. Please clarify. I wrote a quick comment dismissing you (I will cease this behavior) then addressed each of your points in a second, much longer commment. I dismissed your comment on the presumption that your message was retaliatory in nature due to timing, the "boomerang" that Ad Orientem brought up. I apologize for presuming collusion if it was independent.

LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 04:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I think people "keep reigniting it" is because it's clear from how you handled that situation on your talk page that you do not understand (or do not want to admit) that your behavior was inappropriate. Your agreement to not repeat the behavior is couched not in an apology for your behavior (or at minimum an acknowledgement that it was inappropriate), but in an overt claim that Ad Orientem would violate WP:INVOLVED should you repeat the edit, yourself violating WP:AGF.

But I recognize that you will abuse your admin powers and ban me if I again shine a light on what you attempt to obfuscate, so I shall refrain from such action.

This entire incident was instigated by you, and your abject refusal to admit how inappropriate your edit to their userpage was is very concerning. Essentially every comment made by you during that discussion screams I didn't hear that. You kept pointing to how you agreed not to repeat the behavior while ignoring concerns that your explicitly stated motivation for stopping was unsatisfactory.

I have no familiarity with Ad Orientem's long term edit history, so I cannot comment on any accusation of civil POV pushing, but in this particular matter I can absolutely say that I found their behavior both appropriate and civil, and yours neither of those things. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I recognized that my behavior was inappropriate for Wikipedia and agreed to stop it. I see no purpose in continuing beyond such agreements.

I won't apologize (except to Frost (sorry Frost), who thanked my edit, which I interpreted as being a civil end to our conversation), but I will alter my behavior on Wikipedia to comply with Wikipedia's rules.

I hear your every word. I have my disagreements with Wikipedia's policies, but I am an internet veteran and understand that internet communities have rules to follow if one wants to be a member of them.

Today, I attempted civility. I will make further efforts to be overly-civil, so as not to undershoot the goal of civility during collaborative disagreements. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:19, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG isn't a threat, it's just a reminder to avoid vexatious/frivolous complaints at ANI, because sometimes when investigating we find bad stuff the original reporter did that they get in trouble for. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 05:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a great way to suppress genuine complaints. I'm not saying that that's the intent, but if that's what you do around here, I suggest reconsidering doing that to avoid chilling effects. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Chilling? Not hounding me? If this isn't hounding, then we need to just remove that from our P&G. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Open a discussion I shall, once the evidence is gathered and organized. I fear no boomerang, as I am one of the WP:BOLDest editors on this site. I advise that you watch your actions and check your biases before doing anything, because I am watching you for the purpose of removing you as an administrator. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 02:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, that last sentence crossed the line into hounding. I shouldn't have said that. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I did not heavily edit my comments after a reply. If any such thing occurred, it was due to MediaWiki's known flaws regarding simultaneous edits. That actually happened just now on this page, and I immediately reverted my edit.

I asked Cullen328 about the own-comment-editing policy on Cullen328's talk page, and the response was exactly in line with my bona fide belief as to what I have been doing.

And I absolutely did not edit another user's comment. (Except for when an edit conflict occurred, which I pointed out.) That is a false accusation, or a horrific mistake on my part for which I deeply apologize. (Note: There has been confusion in the past regarding the word "comment." When I say "comment," I mean what happens when you click reply.) LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, I recognize that another user's page was an inappropriate venue. I should have gone to Ad Orientem's talk page, following appropriate ANI procedure. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I had a troubling conversation with LesbianTiamat back in October which can be seen in this diff. The editor edited Ad Orientem 's user page to misrepresent the administrator's own words in an inflammatory fashion. Instead of acknowledging their error and apologizing, LesbianTiamat was combative, argumentative and dismissive. This is clearly an editor who holds grudges and is willing to pursue them over months. As for their contributions to Jefferson Davis and Talk: Jefferson Davis, those edits showed a similarly combative reluctance to accept Wikipedia's core content policies. If you ask me off-Wikipedia what I think of Jefferson Davis then I will be frank about how much I despise him, but this is an encyclopedia and we simply cannot call someone a traitor unless that person was convicted of treason by a court of law. Otherwise, British editors would be free to call George Washington a traitor to the British crown in Wikipedia's voice. And so on in countless biographies of people who rebelled but were never convicted of treason. As for the editor's comment at Talk:The Birth of a Nation, I changed it to something that doesn't suck the film's dick, that type of sexualized comment in a discussion that has nothing to do with sexuality is utterly inappropriate. I see this editor's contributions as deeply problematic and I am struggling to come up with a solution. Cullen328 (talk) 05:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't touch the page on Jefferson Davis after the incident reached my talk page, at least to my memory.

I'll avoid vulgarity in future comments. I don't think the sexual nature is relevant because I was using it as an idiomatic set phrase, but I will filter further comments. That thought did not cross my mind; it is everyday language in my dialect, which is not that of Wikipedia as a whole, and thus inappropriate.

And yeah, I did that edit to Ad Orientem's userpage. I said I wouldn't do it again, and I haven't. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@LesbianTiamat: Have you apologized for it? City of Silver 06:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

About that one specific edit that seriously crossed the line regarding Wikipedia's rules on editing others' user pages? No, I have not. But I have not repeated the behavior, and I have no desire for further interaction. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@LesbianTiamat: If, as you say, that message "seriously crossed the line regarding Wikipedia's rules on editing others' user pages," either apologize for it or explain why you won't. People notice when you dance around issues rather than face them head-on and that sort of reticence will do you a lot more harm than good in the long run. City of Silver 06:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I believe that actions speak louder than words, and have very strict personal rules regarding when I apologize. I'm not betraying that personal policy.

In the context of Wikipedia, I apologize. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not you intended it, this sounds like a non-apology, at best. Aoi (青い) (talk) 07:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I feel that WP:BLOCKP#3 might offer a simple solution here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

What's my sentence? LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 05:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

For my own part, I would be content with an indefinite WP:IBAN. But I think there are issues here that go beyond her rather obvious hostility to me. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, that seems excessive when I'm actively correcting my behavior. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Given that you accused me of misconduct and asked me to resign without producing any evidence, and openly threatened to follow me around with the intent of having me desysopped, I would argue than an indefinite IBAN would be pretty much the minimal response. What possible reason would you have for wanting to still be able to interact with me? -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I haven't collected it all yet! And if collecting evidence is considered hounding, I'm really in a Catch-22 here. I guess I'll completely back off. You're just one admin out of hundreds. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you asked him to resign, saying [y]ou may not realize it, Ad Orientem, but you appear to have become a civil POV pusher... before you had even attempted to collect evidence regarding whether or not your assertion was correct? Can you explain how this is not naked casting of aspersions? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 06:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I guess it's a big mistake that I didn't put everything in a document before making said request and casting aspersions! It is casting aspersions. I thought I was handling things civilly by making a request, and it turns out I wasn't!

The evidence, at this point it's irrelevant; I'm not going to hound Ad Orientem.

And to clarify, I do not hold grudges - I stand by principles. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, collecting evidence from past behavior to make a report is not hounding. It is within your rights to do that. It was asserting that you'd follow them around to wait for them to "trip up" in the future that's hounding, and in particular for the purpose of removing you as an administrator is making it personal. You've already admitted that sentence was inappropriate, so I don't think further discussion is necessary. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 06:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that crossed the line. I knew in the back of my head that I shouldn't have added that, but was fired up in the moment and felt indignation, and that I had to do something. I will not do that again. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

And do you have any intent to apologize to Ad Orientem for casting aspersions? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 06:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

In the context of Wikipedia's rules and the community the two of us share, I apologize for breaking the rules regarding casting aspersions without first gathering evidence into a presentable format. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Crusading, really. Secretlondon (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@LesbianTiamat: An IBAN (interaction ban) is a ban on interacting with another user, so it would be very mild. It's like a restraining order preventing you from talking to @Ad Orientem on talk pages or reverting their edits. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I made a mistake. WP:ALPHABETTISPAGHETTI I don't want to interact with Ad Orientem, but I also don't want Ad Orientem interacting with me. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 17:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@LesbianTiamat We can end this right now. All you need to do is agree to the IBAN. I've already stated I have no desire to interact with you and will refrain from doing so unless absolutely necessary. Your acceptance of the IBAN in the section below IMO would be enough to close this discussion and we can both move on. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we're done here if we've both agreed that we don't want to interact with each other? LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 17:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You need to state your acceptance of the IBAN in the section below. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The editor claims I'm actively correcting my behavior but her recent edits that happened before this ANI discussion began show little evidence of that. The idiomatic set phrase defense is . . . unpersuasive. Cullen328 (talk) 06:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It appears that your point is that I added sexuality, which was not my intent. If it's unpersuasive, well, I really don't have anything else to say, because everything I said here is the truth. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

How on earth can you write something that doesn't suck the film's dick, and then argue that adding sexualized commentary was not my intent? That literally makes no sense whatsoever. Cullen328 (talk) 06:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It's how I talk. It's how people around me talk. I'm actually really at the same level of incredulity as you because it's something I hear every day. It won't be posted on Wikipedia again. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a worldwide collaborative project, and people from a wide variety of countries, social and religious groups, ages and educational levels need to be welcomed here. If you think that the sexualized insults that you claim are common in your social milieu are appropriate for Wikipedia, then perhaps you need to be restricted from editing Wikipedia. You are creating, in effect, a hostile work environment for people with different social norms. When I was a teenager, I had many friends who freely and frequently dropped f-bombs to protest against the prevailing social norms of that era. I don't talk that way on Wikipedia and neither should anyone. We should use standard, businesslike English in our interactions with other editors. Cullen328 (talk) 07:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I already said it won't be posted on Wikipedia again. I get it. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 07:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Saying "it" won't be posted again is nowhere near enough. What is needed is a dramatic transformation in your style of interaction with other editors. Drop the combativeness and adopt friendly collaboration. And I do not mean things like the mean-spirited barnstar that you left at User talk: LilianaUwU#courage strength and cuteness to you. Cullen328 (talk) 07:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It appears that we have another misunderstanding here. That barnstar was given out of solidarity. It is specifically for members of my birth-status group, and is a reference to a well-known (within the group) meme.

One person chastised me for giving the award because that person felt it was not deserved, and you're saying it's mean-spirited. I have now removed the lines that could be considered mean-spirited towards others, keeping it completely positive. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

There is no misunderstanding. Your intention was clear. I will leave this now for input by other editors. Cullen328 (talk) 08:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

If openly transgender users are going to be criticized and threatened with discipline for sharing goofy inside-jokes with other openly transgender users, then Wikipedia's even more transphobic than I feared. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 08:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Honestly I really don’t think the barnstar bears factoring into anything. As Hydrangeans mentioned, this is a trans editor making a joke with another trans editor. It really doesn’t warrant any level of response Snokalok (talk) 08:32, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Wow, I did not notice the comments LesbianTiamat left with that barnstar previously (to be 100% clear, the barnstar isn't the problem--it's the comments made toward Ad Orientem that were left with the barnstar, which were removed in this diff).

More importantly, LesbianTiamat's attempt to brush off the comments as a "misunderstanding" (followed by her noting that she removed the lines that "could be considered mean-spirited toward others"...seriously, "could"???) shows that she does not get it, despite her assurance that she is actively correcting her behavior. I would support an IBAN in this case, and LesbianTiamat would do well to take Cullen328's advice to dramatically transform her style of interaction with other editors, drop the combativeness, and adopt friendly collaboration. Aoi (青い) (talk) 08:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Here is the quote in the diff: And don't let Ad Orientem or that IP editor get to you. I've had problems with that admin before, and will be voting for his recall. Stand up and fight, just as you've been doing. Call for a different admin if you need Wikipedia's rules enforced.

To be honest, I'm not seeing the cause for dramatic alarm. The text amounts to trying to reassure another transgender user in the face of perceived transphobia. Openly saying that one "will be voting for his recall" is toasty, yeah, but it's not slurs or insults or personal attacks. I personally have a really high bar for civility, so I do personally think LesbianTiamat was behaving less than ideally, but behaving below an ideal is pretty different from what she's being accused of (being mean and combative). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 08:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this, the message attached to the barnstar reads as reassurance and certainly to my view does not meet the bar for any level of incivility towards OP. Snokalok (talk) 09:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• First Ad Orientem dares LesbianTiamat to open an ANI thread about his behavior (disproportionately targeting transgender users for disciplinary action), and within a couple hours Ad Orientem instead is opening a thread to complain about Lesbian Tiamat? It's hard for me to not see this as Ad Orientem trying to 'get ahead' of any thread about himself by once again disproportionately targeting a transgender user for disciplinary action. Ad Orientem already openly disagrees with MOS:GENDERID (a Manual of Style guidance that for the most part is the pretty minimal don't misgender or deadname people) and scorns WP:NOQUEERPHOBIA as evidence that Wikipedia requires users to subscribe to the current doctrines and orthodoxy of the social political left. And frankly, Ad Orientem's intervention at Jefferson Davis—We cannot state that Davis committed treason in wiki-voice because he was never convicted of the crime—really doesn't impress me. Historians of the Civil War have called it treason, and wikilawyering that away smacks of Neo-Confederate apologia.
  We don't need Confederate apologetics on Wikipedia. We don't need queerphobes. We don't need admins who disproportionately target transgender users. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 08:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your support and words of honesty. I've felt pretty alone here. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 08:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Hydrangeans, you can not make charges like that without providing evidence or you are also casting aspersion. This thread was winding down and you just escalated things. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

So, I can’t speak to the noqueerphobes quote, but the confederate one is from one of the diffs OP posted. I’ll repost it here. Talk:Jefferson Davis#Treason, first post.

That said Hydrangeans, you should be thorough in your citations, especially for a matter like this. Snokalok (talk) 08:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about forgetting the NOQUEERPHOBES link; I've added a link in my initial comment. As for the statement about Jefferson Davis, I thought that being linked in OP was sufficient, but I'll remember to be thorough in the future.

As for escalation, Ad Orientem started the thread, and at ANI OPs can also be scrutinized. If things really have winded down, then I don't think there's much cause for alarm that my one comment would somehow drastically and unjustly change that. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 08:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I gave Snokalok a barnstar in appreciation (it's silly, and based on a userbox) and then this happened.

@Rambam 2025 gave the reversion reason Rv retract your comments about AO or pay the price! (Another user stepped in and reverted the blatant targeted vandalism.)

This looks like hounding to me. And it's part of a pattern I noticed. However, with the casting aspersions thing, my documentation of the prior event with AO cannot be posted without significant work, as I tracked only the usernames of those going through my contributions and reverting my good-faith edits. I also am unsure of the extent of the damage, as I have not completely surveyed it - I have roughly 1500 edits.

An unknown editor may possibly be violating WP:CANVAS and WP:HOUND against me. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 13:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Mysteriously, the edit summary is now gone. I was not aware that that was even possible. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 13:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Just passing by, Rambam 2025 was blocked as a sock/vandal below. Sarsenet (talk) 14:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think a one-way IBAN proposal is still on the table. I'm not convinced that threat of hounding will no longer occur. No one, editor or admin, should edit thinking that another editor is scrutinizing their every edit to capture "evidence". I mean, no one wants to edit like that on the Project, no matter who you are. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• I’ve read over OP’s post several times, and I have concerns.

The opening quote User LesbianTiamat has asked me to resign as an admin on grounds of Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing.[131] I have declined the request.[132] Her antagonism towards me appears to have originated with and the subsequent quotes I had largely forgotten the matter when LT suddenly turned up on a long stale discussion[137] at User talk:LilianaUwUwith their accusations of misconduct and their request for my resignation. and this recent development has renewed my concerns as to whether or not she possesses the temperament required to be able to contribute effectively here make this thread read to me as though the central issue here is that LT asked OP to resign as admin. Certainly, the manner in which this request to resign was given was not at all in line with Wikipedia standards of civility, and that is its own issue, but nonetheless, the way this thread is currently written reads as “Could you resign?” “No” being the central issue instead of the incivility, and that concerns me greatly. But perhaps there’s some wiki guideline I’m missing that makes it all make sense. Snokalok (talk) 08:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Signature tangent, resolved as no action required. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 06:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

This editor's link to their user talk page says "troll/pester"...maybe we should take that as literal. Liz Read! Talk! 06:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC) It's a Homestuck reference. Trollian and PesterChum are fictional chat programs. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC) To quote David Mitchell, "But is that how it comes across?" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC) Well, it's supposed to be a hint that I'm a fan of the webcomic, intended to actually encourage people to talk to me. I figure that outside the scrutiny of ANI, it's seen as a joke. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC) It does indicate that any attempt at WP:COMMUNICATE will be seen as trolling/pestering. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC) I say again, it's a Homestuck reference. I bolded my statement above that I would not dismiss others quickly. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 06:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC) FWIW, I found it to be tongue-in-cheek. We are allowed to have some fun here. I don't think we need to nitpick her signature. The other issues are more concerning to me, and I am cautiously optimistic given LT's change in tone demonstrated on this thread. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 06:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC) I'm inclined to agree. I would not read too much into the "troll/pester" thing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC) Yeah, I'm sorry I brought it up. It just seemed very unusual. Sorry for the unnecessary tangent. Liz Read! Talk! 06:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC) Understandable. On a side note, it's extremely late here and I have to get up in a few hours. I will check back later today. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Requesting One Way IBan for LesbianTiamat

Based on their history and above discussion, I am satisfied that LesbianTiamat harbors extremely strong personal animosity towards me, likely motivated by ideological prejudice. Despite ample opportunity to produce at least some evidence to back up her aspersions and request for my resignation, she has failed to do so. Nor am I satisfied by her extremely grudging acknowledgments that her actions were wrong. The wording is often carefully couched and leaves me convinced that while she very reluctantly accepts her behavior was contrary to community policies and guidelines, that she believe she occupy the moral high ground. I note that after denying hounding, when I posted their direct quote threatening to to do exactly that with the objective of having me desysopped, her response was "I shouldn't have said that." At this point. I cannot conceive of any constructive reason why she would want to interact with me. And frankly I do not want to spend the rest of my time on the project looking over my shoulder knowing someone with such openly declared hostility is looking for an opportunity to attack me. I respectfully ask the community to impose an indefinite WP:IBAN on LesbianTiamat. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

How about a two-way ban? One-way is absolutely unfair and unjust.

A no-fault two-way interaction ban is often a quick and painless way to prevent a dispute from causing further distress or wider disruption. (troll/pester) 17:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

For my part, I will be quite happy to avoid any interaction with you that is not necessary in my administrator capacity. And even then, I would probably refer anything not time sensitive to another admin. That said, I have done nothing wrong here. A two way IBAN is not appropriate. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I've done nothing wrong outside the context of Wikipedia.LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 17:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You are reinforcing my entire point. You still don't believe you have done anything wrong. Honestly, if this were a situation involving two other editors and I were an uninvolved party, looking at this objectively I'd be at least thinking about an indefinite block. Your editing history suggests you see Wikipedia as an ideological battlefield. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

But we're within Wikipedia here. This is honestly a totally perplexing response to me. It's like if I broke a US law and my defense was "but I didn't break a Canadian law." Yes... and? --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 18:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem: Could you please state exactly what "ideological prejudice" Tiamat "likely" has against you? You didn't explicitly say what belief(s) you have that she might find objectionable and I don't want to guess because if I guess wrong, that's probably me violating AGF. City of Silver 17:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

See her edit on my user page. I believe it is self evident. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support indefinite one way IBan for LesbianTiamat, as the minimum action required here, with a warning that any more disruptive editing may result in further sanctions. Cullen328 (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support indefinite one way interaction ban, per the behaviours exhibited in the thread above (especially, and quite shockingly, including "I advise that you watch your actions and check your biases before doing anything, because I am watching you for the purpose of removing you as an administrator") as well as vandalism of AO's userpage a couple of months ago. The fact that this has been going on for seemingly months means the problem clearly isn't going away easily. Daniel (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Accept. To paraphrase Che Guevara, you will only be blocking a woman. LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 18:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Based on LT's acceptance of the proposed IBAN, I am satisfied that no further action is required. As far as I am concerned, the matter is resolved. Unless there is an objection, could an uninvolved admin please log the IBAN, post the appropriate talk page notice and close this discussion? Thanks. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Weliviewf disruptive editing – review requested

I left User:Weliviewf many warnings and requests about editing errors that they were making. The editor removed those warnings from their User talk page, so they can be presumed to have been seen. The editor continues to make the same sorts of disruptive edits. I found a half-dozen significant errors in a dozen recent edits. They are making good edits to prose, but often accompanied by errors like nonexistent templates or categories, removing valid formatting, and making unhelpful changes. See the talk page history for my requests to them.

The editor is also newly registered, but their behavior gives every indication that they are an experienced Wikipedian.

At this point, I feel like another set of eyes is needed to judge the level of disruption and if anything else may be going on here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I also thought of bringing them here due to their many revisions of removing content without explanation or with misleading edit summaries (such as this one claiming minor edits while also removing 72,000 bytes). Not only that, but they also remove the references, external links and categories for no reason. I do agree that some of their edits are genuinely beneficial, however edits like this, this and this are completely unhelpful, removing entire sections of various articles, breaking tables and templates, and leaving sentences incomplete.

They are completely aware they have a talk page, as they have removed content from it on two occasions, but the fact that they refuse to address concerns brought up on their talk page is concerning (I never left any warnings on their talk page because I thought what was already there was sufficient and didn't want to seem like I was piling on, however they don't seem to acknowledge them at all except for removing those warnings, which they have the right to do of course). Procyon117 (talk) 06:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Jonesey95, I haven't looked at their edits but it looked like you left 8 messages on their user talk page over 15 minutes! Given their previous behavior, do you think this was an effective way to communicate with them? It's overkill. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I left a message for each different problem that I found, including problems that they had previously been warned about. They made many different kinds of errors and disruptive edits at a high rate of speed. I also reverted some edits and pinged them from edit summaries, hoping that different styles of notification would help. Everything I have read about blocking says that editors need to be given adequate warnings. As for whether it was effective, I don't think the previous warnings were effective, but I know that they are required. If these do not work, I need more help. Hence my request here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Weliviewf has returned to editing. I've invited them to participate in this discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I too have cleaned up some of the edits made by Weliviewf, but the task is rather overwhelming and they have created a lot of work for other editors, much of which still remains to be done. I see three basic issues:

• First, they remove vast portions of an article for no discernible reason (1, 2, 3, 4, etc). At first I thought these were accidental mistakes, but it seems to be such a persistent pattern that I can only assume that it's deliberate. They have also edit warred to restore these mass content removal edits on the same page after they were reverted (eg. 1a and 1b and 1c; 2a and 2b and 2c)
• Second, they repeatedly make changes that violate the MOS. For example, they remove bolding from the article subject in the lead sentence in most of their edits (eg. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc) even though they have been informed at least three times that this is contrary to the MOS (1, 2, 3).
• Third and perhaps most importantly, they do not communicate at all. They have selectively removed warnings from their talk page twice (1 and 2), so they are aware that their talk page exists and that other editors have been warning them, but they have neither responded to the messages nor changed the behavior that they were warned about. As far as I can tell, they have never edited a talk page of any kind.

CodeTalker (talk) 08:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I see the problem now. They are making a lot of very BOLD edits. They might need a partial block from Article namespace so they start discussing these major changes they are doing to a variety of articles on the project. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Considering they have still continued to do this, I would gladly support a block from Article namespace. Procyon117 (talk) 13:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The editor continues to remove bold formatting from article subjects in lead sections (most of their article edits) and assign incorrect categories. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I've had a look at some of their first edits, and I've noticed they never always used to do this. In this edit here they actually used an edit summary to try to refute what another editor said. And here they actually commented on a talk page to make a suggestion. In fact, all their edits until 26 October actually seemed fine and reasonable.

For some reason though, starting with this diff, they've used the newcomer task tool and made disruptive edits with it, using generic edit summaries, regardless of if they're actually accurate. Procyon117 (talk) 14:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I've pblocked them from articlespace for 48 hours in hopes of getting them to come to their talk page and discuss what is going on. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Much of the thread above is about removals, but there may also be a problem in the other direction.

I found this thread after running across what smelled like AI-generated text added by Weliviewf to an article over the course of several edits [128]. Ironically, I encountered this while going through the edits of another problem editor (see WP:AN#Editor possibly gaming the system) who expanded some of this added text with even more text of the same general nature [129].

I haven't had the time to check Weliviewf's contributions for more AI slop but I wouldn't be surprised to find it. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Sharnadd and disruptive editing/CIR

Hi, Sharnadd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been editing disruptively recently and with a past block in June 2024 (block warning on talk page), I think more action is required. I don’t think their edits are vandalism and may not warrant a full rollback but I do think they are disruptive and might need a WP:CIR block. I [130] (and many others) [131] [132] [133] have addressed this in both user and article talk pages, but they do not seem to understand the issues raised. It also appears this editor may not have a good grasp of English due to the misspellings and grammar issues they have introduced.
-edit warring to readd reverted information: [134], [135], [136], and [137]

-Partially deleted talk page discussions in a manner that changes what the original post means (instead of fully blanking): [138] and [139]

-Added uncited section in broken English: [140]

-Nonsense edit summaries: Good title of country [141] and [142] Added book shop I go marks and Spencers is a supermarket. There are full service hotels at a service station not motels which generally have the doors outside

-Removal of info with confusing, misspelled edit summaries: [143] and [144]

Please let me know if there’s any mistakes, or additional information needed. Thanks, Sarsenet (talk) 08:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

There's an evidwnt error in the ES of that "uncited section" diff, "Added types" should be "typos". Narky Blert (talk) 11:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

thata not true I haven't been disruptive posting. I had been adding information with citations. I know that you had a problem as I made a spelling mistake on a posting by that's hardly Sharnadd (talk) 11:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

145 I added additional sources the originator agreed and has removed some of his incorrect information. Sharnadd (talk) 11:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

146 I apologised to Cassiopeia as when I edited I had accidently removed some information from lower down and she put it back for me Sharnadd (talk) 11:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

147 I sent belbury the current information that is per the regulations as he had a query on regs after Brexit Sharnadd (talk) 12:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

148 to 151 it wasn't an editing war. Someone was removing information as I was added several citations as they did not think the citations were good enough but they had not seen guardian citations. Information was left on as citations given Sharnadd (talk) 12:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

152 and 153 when you mentions the problem with my accidently spelling he word placed as places I would happily have blanked your discussion from my talk page if I knew how to do so it seems I can only edit Sharnadd (talk) 12:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

156 to 157 what would you prefer the edit summary to say. Would you prefer that they remain blank Sharnadd (talk) 12:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

157 to 158 it was t confusing at all. The page was listed as breakfast sandwich from United states. Since It discussed the American breakfast sandwich in the overview history and ingredients I removed the reference to other types. Since you stated it was for all types of breakfast sandwich I removed the origin as united states Sharnadd (talk) 12:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding your edits for Breakfast sandwich the problem is that your injecting your own understanding, but that is not how Wikipedia works when it comes to adding or removing information -- for example, see WP:TRUE TiggerJay (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks that is why I ended up removing the origin as though the breakfast sandwich being discussed was solely about the American type rather than general sandwhichs as it discussed the American sandwhichs in all parts of the article. It really didn't seem to refer to general sandwhichs Sharnadd (talk) 09:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I would prefer that you use clear, concise edit summaries as when they're present, they're not constructive. Sarsenet (talk) 08:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I usually use clear concise summaries stating what I have added or why I have changed an article but since you do not like them I wonder if you had an example of what you prefer. Such as if there is a spelling mistake I would say spelling corrected or if I have added to the history I would say further historical information provided Sharnadd (talk) 09:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@Sarsenet - honestly I think looking at the edit summaries for the main article space look on par with what most people do when it comes to ES and prose. However, I believe your bigger problem is that the summary does not always accurately reflect the nature of all of the changes made during an edit.

@Sharnadd - I think that it would be helpful if you either included all the types of changes being made in your summary, or better yet, break up your edits into "change topics" that is, if your correcting links, that is one type of edit, whereas removing duplicate content is something else. For example, I take a look at this edit while it might make sense to condense this section since there is already a separate article, it makes no sense to me why you removed chess pie? TiggerJay (talk) 16:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I apologize, I wasn't the clearest in explaining my issues with the ES. I do agree with you that the biggest problems with the summaries are that they're not totally accurate. Sarsenet (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding removing other peoples talk messages in part, such as this example -- there is no special "full blanking" tool or feature, but instead the problem is that you partially deleted only some of what the other editor posted on your talk page. That is an inappropriate form of WP:REFACTORING. You have the ability to "edit" and fully remove the discussion, as the second example regarding Pie seems to be your intention there. TiggerJay (talk) 22:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes thanks I will just try and blank it or do just a short response next time. Sharnadd (talk) 07:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're understanding, the problem is not with how you reply to people on your talk page, you can reply however you want, it can be short or very long, or not at all, that is your choice. You can also delete someone's entire post to your talk page. However, the concern presented here was that you were changing other peoples post to your talk page in a way where you removed only part of what they said, instead of the entire thing, which then misrepresents what they said for the record. In general, if you're not completely blanking the page or entire section, then make sure you understand the refactoring link I shared above. TiggerJay (talk) 16:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

With regards to Delicatessen those edits broadly fall under WP:3R which is a form of edit waring, even if unintentional. Your edits were removed more than once, and regardless of your reasoning, you do not simply re-add information that was removed without either (1) fully addressing the initial concert; or (2) bringing the discussion to the talk page to find consensus with other editors. TiggerJay (talk) 22:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

ah thank you. I was still adding citations at the time. The man who changed them thought they weren't a good source so I apologised and put back with the guardian. He apologised that he hadn't seen it. I them added the BBC and guardian. I will just message him with the extra situations next time and explain I am adding more Sharnadd (talk) 07:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, when I was very new I made the mistake of making multiple edits while developing a part of an article and saving the changes while my edits/changes were a partial work in progress. That generally is not a good idea, especially when what you're changing might be viewed as controversial or contested. When that is the case, you certainly want to be adding references at the time of making those changes (in that specific edit). Now, that being said, you don't want to go and make multiple changes to an article. Generally you want to do it either in sections (such as fixing grammar, prose, etc) or all centered around a common change. For example, say there is an article about a UK topic where WP:DATE would generally say that since most of the dates are written out as 12 December, but you find a few places that say December 12, go ahead and fix the whole article to adjust the date. But just the date with an edit summary stating such -- but please don't even that without understanding the nuance presented in WP:DATE, so don't go around "fixing" dates. TiggerJay (talk) 16:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

First a caution about how you're responding to the various links provided, those numbers are dynamic and may change at any point, which will cause confusion. For example, at the time of me writing this reply, 145 is now part of the section above regarding User LesbianTiamat which I am certain you're not referring to... So please use a different way to explain the various edits. For example, what is currently #157 will change, so perhaps when responding you might say for example: for Beefsteak and this diff my reason is xyz... TiggerJay (talk) 22:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

thanks I thought they would also lin to the pages she had a problem with. So the one with a incorrectly spelled word will link to something else. Will do thanks again for your help Sharnadd (talk) 07:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure who you're referring to here, but if it's me, I'm not a "she." Thanks, Sarsenet (talk) 08:24, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry,I will refer to you as he if that is correct Sharnadd (talk) 09:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The beefsteak page that you had a problem with I ran through several grammar checkers and it is fine

I will add some citations showing the common ingredients we serve with steak Sharnadd (talk) 09:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

There are several problems with this diff on Beefsteaks. Among them grammar and spelling problems. I'm not sure what program you're using, but here is just a few examples, with sea salt nd pepper and seared. There is clearly either a typographical error of some sort with the word nd, which was probably originally and, but even as such "with sea salt and pepper and seared" would not be correct. Additionally, ending the statement with a semi-colon would also not be correct for this statement. Using a capital letter for In steak restaurants, you do not capitalize the first letter after a comma. And this list goes on, there are numerous errors in this edit. What I think people are expecting is for you to simply admit your errors, instead of trying to defend these edits, and simply find a way to do better. Also browser based "checkers" like Grammarly, are generally not correct, especially when the content contains markup. It might also explain why you removed several wikilinks for no apparent good reason, which is where writing a good edit summary is important, especially when you make extensive changes with such an uninformative summary. TiggerJay (talk) 16:00, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the help Sharnadd (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

(See below first) There does appear to be a serious problem with how edits are being made, I do assume that these were made in good faith, but I believe that it is a competency issue with regards to accidentally removing information too frequently. Here are some examples where I believe content was not intentionally removed (often edit summaries simply refer to adding information), but regardless it was removed, and in some cases, were not reverted until I discovered it during this research -- all from the last week alone: [145] [146] [147] [148] TiggerJay (talk) 16:45, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry the above first sentence was terribly worded. What I intend to convey is that there is a serious problem with the technical side of how they're editing causing a higher than usual number of unintended (AGF) removal of content from articles (and even on his own talk page). To some degree this is a CIR when it comes to how they edit. It might be due to their use of a mobile device. This is not the only problem, but this is perhaps more egregious than simply poor edit summaries or his UK-bias/whitewashing in edits. TiggerJay (talk) 19:46, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

It is not a UK bias I just prefer for things to be factual which is why I try and add citations from several different areas. There appears to be a strong American bias on articles with incorrect information Sharnadd (talk) 08:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you speak at all to the concern about what appears to be errors while editing where you're removing information accidentally? And if not accidentally, perhaps another explanation? For example, removing Canada and Hong Kong's entries from Bread Pudding? Or removing an entire paragraph about Gervase Markham from Pie? TiggerJay (talk) 08:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The more I look at edits, the worse it seems. Again, likely very genuine attempts to help, but the end results are often filled with problems, such as here -- multiple issues here: (1) a broken reference, (2) a grammar error of an extra space, (3) I'm pretty sure they meant to say "Fried Chicken" and not "Frie" as I cannot find any reliable sources that refer to it without the "d" at the end of the word, (4) they broke a sentence by inserting their edit, removing the word "The" so the next sentence, after the period and their reference is "origin of fried chicken", (5), their edit also interjects into the middle of a narrative about the American expression. Their insertion would have fit much better a few sentences down in the same paragraph (6) their edit summary even included a spelling error. That is a lot of "little mistakes" which when viewed both in the scope of this single edit, but then multiplied across many of their edits, becomes problematic. Perhaps Sharnadd really needs to use the "Show Preview" and/or get more practice in draft space until they become more accurate with spelling, grammar, use of the tools, not removing content, etc. TiggerJay (talk) 09:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is what I've been noticing. I went through numerous edits both before and after their block in June this year, and saw that their general pattern of introducing multiple issues per edit has persisted since before then. A case in which mistakes were spread out between multiple edits, though, can be seen between here and here, showing removals in both country of origin and dishes themselves without merit. Also, I see more possible UK bias in adding a country of origin to a dish with versions worldwide, seen here. Sarsenet (talk) 14:56, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

hardly without merit. Do you not think an egg dish should contain egg as one of the main ingredients. I really don't think that a hamburger is classed as one Sharnadd (talk) 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You don't think it's American bias to attribute a dish to that country when it has several versions worldwide Sharnadd (talk) 20:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Sharnadd - I am interested in seeing you answer the questions? While Sarsenset interjected their thought on the matter, I am curious to see what you hasve to say about the 6 errors found in a single edit? I am not discussing the merits of the information that was added, but rather how it was added, with multiple errors. TiggerJay (talk) 22:57, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Syrian Air Flight 9218

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can someone with more experience look at Syrian Air Flight 9218. It's been created in response by a theory by some that radar data recorded by this plane shows that it may have crashed, with theories it was carrying the President of Syria. Given how entirely speculative the entire thing is, and the 1RR restrictions, someone more competent than me needs to have their finger on this one. Nfitz (talk) 11:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Additional info on the theory that is going around social media. It should be noted that reliable sources have discussed the flight, but have made it clear that details about it are unconfirmed and speculation: The Telegraph, Reuters. --Super Goku V (talk) 11:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, it's certainly interesting. But entirely speculative. And at this point it happened about 12 to 13 hours ago. The article just shouldn't be here, if there's no actual physical evidence of a crash, or a missing plane. Planes have been vanishing in that area all day on radar; this one just had odd looking data before it vanished. This isn't encyclopaedic. Anyhow, I'm out of here for a few hours. Nfitz (talk) 11:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed on most to all points. (Not sure about the "Planes have been vanishing in that area all day on radar" part as this is the first I have heard of that.) --Super Goku V (talk) 11:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, some reliable sources are quoting Russian government officials saying that Bashar al-Assad is in Moscow and has been granted asylum there. Cullen328 (talk) 19:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

And there we go. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It's moot now, but some planes from the Gulf and Iran were vanishing on approach to Tartus, see [149] this. Vanishing around the same point near the "crash site". Nfitz (talk) 23:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• Yet another great argument for Wikipedia not covering breaking news. EEng 19:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I've gone ahead and snow closed the deletion discussion on the article. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vandal/troll/sock back yet again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The fistagon vandal/troll/sock is back yet again, this time under the name Rambam 2025 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). If someone could please take the appropriate action and do a reveal on the edit summaries, I’d be very grateful. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Best, -- Diannaa (talk) 13:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks, Diannaa, that's great. Cheers. - SchroCat (talk) 14:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two clear NOTHERE accounts

TheodoresTomfooleries and DFLPApologist are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Not sure where else to report so I brought it here. Kind regards, Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (^{talk to me!}/_{my edits}) 15:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

My contributions very much suggest otherwise. Whether you like my userpage or not has nothing to do with my contributions to Wikipedia, all of which have been done to improve Wikipedia. TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 15:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

My userpage has no relation to my contributions. DFLPApologist (talk) 16:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• Sigh Both users should be trouted for using their user pages for very bad-taste jokes. These pages should be deleted via MfD and, honestly, run a CU just in case. But, assuming these two aren't a pair of socks I think we can let them off with a warning not to do something so pointlessly edgy going forward. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed, I think. Looking through their contributions, there's some potentially-good edits, e.g. Special:Diff/1257215939. (Although I'd like if someone ran a double-check on those references on the off chance it's subtle vandalism.) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• Just pointing out that DPLPApologist's page includes the apparent quote "A homosexual cannot be a revolutionary." Toughpigs (talk) 16:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I am a lesbian. DFLPApologist (talk) 16:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I consider it highly likely that both of these accounts are controlled by the same person. Thd absurdist style is similar and the categories are very similar. Cullen328 (talk) 18:37, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I just ripped off their userbox because I don’t know how to code DFLPApologist (talk) 18:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  infobox* DFLPApologist (talk) 18:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  Furthermore, TheodoresTomfooleries is a left communist, while I am a Maoist. DFLPApologist (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  This style of absurdist humor is popular on leftist twitter, which is why our profiles appear similar, and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t inspired. DFLPApologist (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  But here's the thing, friend. This isn't twitter. This is Wikipedia. While I do agree that your user page should be something that is solely you, certain things to not put in seemed to go without saying. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 20:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  (after edit conflicts) If they're not the same person then they are friends. I suppose we should at least be grateful for this edit. Just block. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think being friends, or having multiple accounts, is against the rules. However, it does need to be properly disclosed. @DFLPApologist and @TheodoresTomfooleries: are these two accounts by the same person, or do you just happen to know each other? If two accounts, see our rules about sockpuppetry. I would strongly recommend using only one account, as using multiple accounts is an easy way to get yourself banned. If you know each other, you should avoid making controversial edits to the same pages without disclosing this (which can violate the prohibitions on meatpuppetry and canvassing). – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  We don’t know each other properly, I just found their profile on the Syria article and thought it was ridiculous. DFLPApologist (talk) 19:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  The only alternative account I have on Wikipedia is User:Kalivyah, which I have specifically marked as such (and which I do not use anymore). Other than this, I do not know who @DFLPApologist is, and I suspect we simply met through the Syria article like she suggests.

  I think it's a possibility I might know her from another platform, but I'm unable to confirm this-- and even whether I do or don't know her, it doesn't make it a case of sockpuppetry. TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 00:42, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

DFLPApologist, this is not Twitter or social media of any kind. You wrote Unlimited genocide on the first world on the other editor's talk page. Why should other Wikipedia editors believe anything that you say? Cullen328 (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I've just revdelled about a dozen revisions on their userpage under RD2. I don't think the user was being remotely serious about what they said, but it's still gross and unnecessary. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

PMC has apparently revdelled multiple revisions upon my request but the content was extremely inappropriate and gross - I don't think any sane person would interpret it as humour The AP (talk) 20:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The good news is that nobody on the internet is sane. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 23:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

But some places are saner than others. The last best place on the internet, as people say. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (^{talk to me!}/_{my edits}) 10:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Any reason why both should not be blocked? GiantSnowman 20:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  They have made fair edits - I guess it's better to warn them that they shouldn't add such inappropriate mentions on the user page and if they continue to make such gross comments - a block? The AP (talk) 21:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

• WP:ROPE. I know this essay is about blocked editors but I think it's an approach that can be useful in situations like this. And also, editors should not solely be judged by their User page but by their Contributions. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you. DFLPApologist (talk) 06:45, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  DFLPApologist, I'm a big believer in ROPE but you are doing yourself no favors by referring to your fellow editors as a "woke mob". This is a collaborative project and even when we are discussing problems on the project, we talk about them with civility. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:56, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  This is why I reported this as NOTHERE. While I too find this sort of humour funny on Twitter (minus slurs), it has no place on Wikipedia and the editors in question are doing themselves no favours by continuing in that same Twitter mindset here. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (^{talk to me!}/_{my edits}) 10:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  User has now added this to their userpage, including "custom_gender = [[Mao Zedong]]-gender" and "| ethnicity = [[Schizophrenia|Hungarian]] | race = [[Hungarians|Schizophrenic]]".

  They are clearly WP:NOTHERE and should be blocked immediately. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:16, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Clear AI slop IP editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Special:Contributions/162.156.70.174

Behaviour has been sporadically ongoing since June 2024.

Block history

- User talk:162.156.70.174#August 2024|Blocked in August 2024 for linking their AI generated slop articles into mainspace. TPA also revoked.

- Blocked and TPA revoked again later in August 2024.

Has created the following AI slop drafts:

- Draft:The_Rise_of_Eco-Fascism:_A_Threat_to_Climate_Justice

- Draft:Climate_Policy_and_Far-Right_Influence

- Draft:Economic_Impacts_of_Climate_Change

Has added AI slop to the Ecofacism article:

- Diff #1

- Diff #2

Has made AI slop threads / replies:

- Talk:Ecofascism #1

- Talk:Ecofascism #2

- WP:Help Desk #1

- WP:Help Desk #2

- WP:Teahouse

- Their User Talk page #1

- Their User Talk page #2

- Their User Talk page #3

- AfC Helpdesk #1

- AfC Helpdesk #2

qcne (talk) 20:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

^{Courtesy ping to prior blocking admins: @Jake Wartenberg, @Paul Erik, @Jpgordon, @Materialscientist} qcne (talk) 20:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk: Administrators' noticeboard#Subject: Clarification and Assistance Needed for "The Economic Impacts of Climate Change: A Journey Towards a Sustainable Future" Cullen328 (talk) 21:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I am regular editor who has recently become aware of this user and I am also highly concerned by their behaviour. ALL of their edits, including response to other users and administrators, is clearly AI-generated. When asked to stop, they lie and insist they are not. They also insist they are two human collaborators, rather than one person who has developed an unhealthy attachment to an AI-chatbot.

They have received multiple warnings, all their edits end up getting reverted, they're don't take onboard any input, etc etc My view is that they need to be barred from input into Wikipedia. CeltBrowne (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

IP blocked and silenced. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 22:47, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ground News; WP:LLM involvement & WP:COMPROMISED suspicions

• Bartimas2 (talk · contribs)
• Fxober (talk · contribs)

This discussion about a news aggregator seems like it may be compromised both by LLM rationales and the possibility of a compromised account. Bartimas's first edit is on this discussion and their rationale reads as a complete chatbot hallucination that makes no real sense, while Fxober may have been here much longer, but it reads the same and does not resemble the writing style or language of any of their past edits, nor interest spaces at all, so I'm suspecting that their account may have been unfortunately compromised. As is this is one of those constant YouTube advertisers that has some controversy I feel like someone external may be trying to weigh down the scales of this discussion outside the first two voters who had proper reasons for their keep (the third from 2603:6011:9600:52C0:414B:816B:94D5:DA4 (talk · contribs) is another first-edit just saying 'keep' and just as suspicisious). Nate • (chatter) 21:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Bartimas2 can be dealt with using a {{uw-coi}} warning. I'm also not seeing any evidence of a compromised account nor does Fxober's post appear to be AI generated. I don't think an LLM would use a comma like Fxober did in the first sentence, for example. I take Fxober's !vote to be "keep, other stuff exists" per their accompanying edit to the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive behaviour and unsubstantiated MOS:PUFFERY by 155.69.190.63

Calling for intervention against persistent disruptive patterns from 155.69.190.63, which has repeatedly added unverified claims, and tendencies to disregard editing policies and misrepresentation in List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru and other related articles.

• [150] Unexplained addition of unverified claims, with no WP:RS.
• [151] Another unexplained edit, without any WP:ES.
• [152] Misrepresenting data from the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, which itself does not indicate that "Johor Bahru is also currently the nation's second tallest city in terms of number of 200 metres and above skyscrapers", quite possibly to advance said IP address' MOS:PUFFERY.

Said IP address even attempted to justify why they refused the burden of proof in their talk page and insinuated me in bad faith of disruptive behaviour. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:22, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I should say, of the three diffs you mentioned, only one (the first) seems like it could even be potentially objectionable, and I'd have to read through the issue in greater detail before I could comment meaningfully.

Are you sure those are the diffs you meant to point to? DS (talk) 04:40, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

My bad, DragonflySixtyseven. I have fixed the third link - that is the one where said IP address misrepresented a source to push puffed up claims. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:43, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi HundenvonPenang, I'm responding per your request at User talk:Newslinger § Seeking assist in WP:ANI. I think your post on this conduct-oriented noticeboard is premature, since an editor should be given an adequate chance to defend their edits with the appropriate policies and guidelines in a content dispute before they are reported for conduct issues. Please start discussions on the affected articles' respective talk pages and explain why you have determined the edits in question are in violation of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines. If an editor repeatedly makes edits against the consensus that arises from these discussions, then a report on this noticeboard would be warranted. — Newslinger talk 04:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi Newslinger, I have no intention of potentially starting an edit war, but said IP address has shown repeated tendencies to disregard established editing policies, misrepresentation and making unsubstantiated claims. But I shall WP:FIXIT anyway on the List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru and concurrently responded to IP address' talk page's allegations. hundenvonPG (talk) 05:02, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

A commonly recommended process for resolving content disputes is the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (WP:BRD). Instead of immediately reverting the other editor for a different interpretation of a cited source (e.g. Special:Diff/1262019325), this process involves starting a discussion on the article talk page (e.g. Talk:List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru) and inviting the other editor to justify their edits.​ — Newslinger talk 05:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi Newslinger, I have added a discussion in the Talk:List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru, but said IP address has instead launched into personal attacks in bad faith.

To quote exact words from that IP address in their user talk:

• "You seem to have pretend not to see it due to some inferiority complex", and
• "This is indeed very sad and is a type of inferiority complex. I feel you."

I believe this behaviour is simply uncalled for and warrants intervention for the lack of constructivity on the part of the IP address. hundenvonPG (talk) 07:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Pinging User:DragonflySixtyseven as IP address has responded in their talk page, for your perusal. hundenvonPG (talk) 07:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I have warned the IP to not accuse another editor of having an "inferiority complex". That is an unwarranted personal attack and is a policy violation. Cullen328 (talk) 07:58, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Pinging Newslinger, DS and Liz,

An update: Said IP address has persistently cast aspersions and accused me in ill-will of "creating statistics on my own like the claimed 'second largest agglomeration' fraud", among other fallacious arguments. They have also resorted to WP:HOUNDING, without bothering to address their own conduct in this report.

Such attitudes are simply WP:NOTHERE to objectively contribute to WP. hundenvonPG (talk) 11:34, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

There are a lot of IP edits on tall Malaysian building-related articles that I think are this person going back quite a few years. The agglomeration debate rings a bell, so I don't think any of this is new. CMD (talk) 12:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I have reminded 155.69.190.63 to focus on content, not other editors, at User talk:155.69.190.63 § Focusing on content.

The discussion at Talk:List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru § "nation's second highest-ranked city"? debates whether it is appropriate for the List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru article to specify that, among Malaysian cities, Johor Bahru has the second-most buildings with a minimum height of 200 meters. It is in the best interest of all involved editors to resolve this question as a content dispute, and not as a conduct dispute.

If there is no consensus in the discussion, please consider requesting input from other editors. For example, creating a request for comment is an effective way to find consensus in an otherwise deadlocked discussion. — Newslinger talk 04:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Newslinger, to add on, 155.69.190.63 has been engaging in WP:HOUNDING, for example, in the latest edits on LivinAWestLife's talk page where I am seeking third opinions on editors more involved with WP:Skyscrapers.

Clearly, said IP address is simply WP:NOTHERE, treating WP as WP:BATTLEGROUND to hound those that disagree with them. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

No offense, HundenvonPenang, it doesn't sound like you want this content dispute resolved, you just want to get this editor blocked. It seems like User:155.69.190.63 is trying to talk out a resolution on a number of different talk pages and you don't want to engage with them any more. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Is that a discussion, or more of a series of accusations? I'm referring to Talk:List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru.

Quite frankly, until the last few minutes, this case appears to go nowhere. No feedback, whatsoever, even to policy violations by said address. And what excuse is there for that address to engage in WP:HOUNDING?

Put it simply, it is pointless to discuss with said IP address that continuously engages in bad faith, accusations against me and now, hounding. hundenvonPG (talk) 05:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

HundenvonPenang, I don't recommend accusing another editor of being WP:NOTHERE when it is plausible that they are contributing in good faith. Additionally, it is bad form to continuously canvass additional editors to this discussion in this way; this behavior is specifically discouraged in the policy against forum shopping, which states: "Raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards and talk pages, or to multiple administrators or reviewers, or any one of these repetitively, is unhelpful to finding and achieving consensus."

A certain burden of proof needs to be met for a conduct dispute to result in sanctions against another editor, and this particular discussion does not meet that burden at this time, which is why I recommend focusing on content. Instead of writing about this dispute on the user talk pages of individual uninvolved editors, posting an appropriately neutral comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skyscrapers about the discussion at Talk:List of tallest buildings in Johor Bahru § "nation's second highest-ranked city"? would be a more productive way forward. — Newslinger talk 05:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thing is, this report on that IP address' conduct didn't seem to get any attention for hours. There doesn't seem to be any recourse, is there? Permitting said IP address to WP:HOUNDING even my attempts to get additional feedback from other editors who worked on skyscraper content.

Will proceed with dispute resolution with WP:SKYSCRAPERS instead. Discussions are frankly, pointless, with an IP address continuously engaging in bad faith arguments and conduct. hundenvonPG (talk) 05:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

HundenvonPenang, I'm beginning to think the problem lies with you as you are ignoring what is being told to you by multiple people. Admins are advising you how to resolve a content dispute but you won't give up your pursuit of getting this IP editor blocked for what seemed like minor infractions. You won't accept anything less that having this editor sanctioned. Drop the stick and focus on the article or this might not end well for you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a volunteer service, which means that even noticeboard inquiries may not be addressed as quickly as everyone prefers. I've advised 155.69.190.63 to refrain from engaging with you in discussions on user talk pages of uninvolved editors. However, if you explicitly complain about an editor on any page, it is unreasonable to prohibit that editor from defending themselves in response, even if you did not invite the editor to the discussion. I agree with Liz's advice above, and I'm glad to see that you'll proceed with contacting WikiProject Skyscrapers to resolve this dispute. — Newslinger talk 05:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

User Thaivo doing... something? on their talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This user was blocked indefinitely in May 2024 by @Daniel Case for "clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia". Since then they've been editing their talk page and adding code. I'm not sure what exactly is being done but it seems to be violating WP:HOST. jolielover♥talk 04:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk page access revoked. Looks like they were using it as temporary workspace for code dumps. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 04:58, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP troll

Being blocked twice over for "personal attacks or harassment" and with a latest comment that reads like this, I think it is clear that the user is WP:NOTHERE and a more extenisve block is needed here as no lessons have been learned or are likely to be learned. Gotitbro (talk) 07:02, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Just because it's not clear, this is about User:5.44.170.181. What are your issues with this edit? It's not constructive but it's not a personal attack. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The November block was justified but their history since seems unremarkable. Agree with Liz re the comment in the diff. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing, sexism and racism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Considering that we have four different recent incidents involving User:WhatamIdoing and their handling of sexist or racist edits, I would propose either a topic ban from the two topics, or a final warning. The discussion User talk:WhatamIdoing#Sexism and racism lists the incidents, their responses (including strongly implying that one editor who disagreed was a sock, and threatening to out me because they falsely claimed that I demanded that WhatamIdoing would out other editors), and the lack of progress. The incidents are

• [153]: "much of the discussion seemed to be divided between childless white men living in wealthy democracies, and, well, the entire rest of the world.", which they equated afterwards to "I said that self-identified men tended to have different opinions in a discussion 13 years ago than self-identified women?" and for which they have only private evidence
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of youngest fathers, where they basically claimed that men can't be raped, and where in the ensuing discussion on their talk page their defense seemed to be that consent was a recent invention and 12 year old boys getting married is not a forced marriage by any definition of the term
• Asking Black Kite to revert their removal of personal attacks because just "a little re-wording might be helpful", and they kept defending that post as if all others in that discussion were the issue and the removed post was somehow acceptable
• When an editor posted this transphobic rant, which was bad enough to get them indef blocked, WhatamIdoing simply replied as if nothing untowards was said and this was a perfectly acceptable post. When confronted with this, they used the "I'm a volunteer" card, and lead the blame at my feet for highlighting the issue.

After nearly a week, I see no progress at all, no indication that they understand how these incidents, these remarks, appear to and affect others. I don't know if these are the only such edits or not, I hope it isn't just the tip of the iceberg. I know that they post many false and dubious claims to defend their position in other discussions (Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Requiring_registration_for_editing), but that's a separate issue. Fram (talk) 11:29, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry to stick my nose in but I just don't get why they're supposed to be getting a warning for 1. Using rhetoric to point out the implicit biases of white, western males. 2. Highlighting the obvious power dynamics in male/female relationships historically; a position they clarified after being requested on their talk page. 3. Assuming good faith. and 4. Failing to call out another user on their misbehaviour. It seems like User:WhatamIdoing is being hounded, their talk page is being used as a forum, and a few editors are trying to find bad faith where none exists. JeffUK 12:56, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

agree w/ JeffUK...WhatamIdoing is being hounded--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Also agree with this, this is hounding. Point 4, blaming WAID for being insufficiently condemnatory of the actions of others is a particular stretch. Void if removed (talk) 13:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I know I’ve haven't been involved in these discussions in awhile. But I have to agree with both of you. This appears to be unwarranted hounding.CycoMa2 (talk) 20:24, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@JeffUK, I don't know if you looked at the original discussion for 2, but WAID's comment The List of youngest birth mothers was deleted because editors felt like it was also a "List of child rape victims", which is not relevant for anyone that is (or should be) in this list. was about a list that at that time included at least one person who had been raped by his middle school teacher (she was convicted of child rape). Then WAID further supported keeping the list by linking to some (non-RS!) reports of incidents like an 11-year-old boy fathering a child with a 36-year-old... Posting long passages describing historical practices among royalty -- including a comment suggesting that we can presume a pre-teen prince has consented to having intercourse with a consort, while at the same time saying this intercourse might constitute command rape of the female counterpart -- was at best a poor post hoc justification of her comments that still did not explain, and seemingly deliberately sidestepped addressing, the fact that her initial comments applied to multiple modern boys who were indisputably raped.

She could have just struck the offending comments and acknowledged she was wrong to link to clear CSA cases as proof of coverage of the kinds of boys who "should be in this list", but instead she doubled down defending herself from a strawman, a behavior that I've noticed is a pattern. JoelleJay (talk) 18:18, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

This entire incident is an unfortunate escalation of <something> that should have ended days ago, and instead has spiraled in to misunderstanding – one on top of another. As one example, there was no strong implication of socking. I hope some people will cool off and stay away from further escalation on the talk page of a very sensible editor, WAID. Neither do I see why WAID is expected to police every a "transphobic rant" on Wikipedia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

There is quite a large gap between "expected to police every "transphobic rant" on Wikipedia" and directly answering to one as if nothing untoward has been said. Fram (talk) 13:40, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Correction of every to singular made above, thx, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that this needed to be escalated to ANI... That being said my previous efforts at de-escallation were met with battleground behavior by WhatamIdoing so there is likely an upside to some sort of admin action in terms of getting people to behave better in the future. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Was coming to WhatamIdoing's talk page to call her tactless and uncivil,[154] incompetent,[155] or a (potential) "monster",[156] part of your attempts at "de-escallation [sic]"? – Joe (talk) 18:40, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Summaries don't match diffs. I did not call them tactless and uncivil... I did not call them incompetent... That the point is either moot or they are a monster isn't really arguable, its just true (personally I think the point is moot). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better if everyone voluntarily disengaged and left each other alone. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd particularly appreciate it if Fram did not revert other editors on my User talk: page.

As for the list:

• The data about how participated in those l-o-n-g discussions is not solely private; anybody can go look spend a couple of days tallying up their own results. However, some of the information has not (to my knowledge) been volunteered on wiki by the individuals, and some of it will require work (e.g., to find and read non-English discussions; to find the one diff where he self-disclosed that information years ago).
• At the AFD, I wrote: "The List of youngest birth mothers was deleted because editors felt like it was also a "List of child rape victims", which is not relevant for anyone that is (or should be) in this list" (emphasis added). I later clarified this: "I would support the list-selection criteria completely excluding any "youngest father" whose partner has been convicted of statutory rape or about whom reliable sources indicate that there is at least a credible belief that child sexual abuse was involved." There was one such case in the list at the time it went to AFD, plus three notable men who got their teenage girlfriends pregnant when they were 14. The rest of the list was long-dead royalty. People who believe that various emperors were actually victims of forced marriage (which is not the same as Arranged marriage) and sexually abused by their wives, or by court officials hypothetically pressuring them to produce an heir, are entitled to their own opinions but may want to read about Presentism (historical analysis)#Moral judgments. Please consider expanding and sourcing the article while you're there.
• The redacted comment was in an RFC about how editors communicate, including discussion of people who don't write English well. An editor who self-identifies as being a journalist and living in China replied in a thread that contains this comment from @Black Kite: "...to be honest, if their English skills are so poor as to need AI to express themselves, shouldn't we be politely suggesting that they would be better off contributing on their native Wikipedia?" by saying "There is a high degree of racism from Anglos evident throughout this discussion. English is a universal language my friends, and not the property of colonial imperialists." As Black Kite and I discussed, I think this likely represents a poorly expressed but fair comment. I'm also not the only editor who thinks that blanking the entire comment might have been unnecessary. I'm sure that Black Kite would probably be horrified to think that anyone might find any echo of Go back to where you came from in his well-intentioned comment, but I can also imagine that some of those people whose "English skills are so poor as to need AI to express themselves" might well have reacted that way. I blame neither Black Kite nor the newbie, though I think the newbie needed some (non-AI) help to explain their concern. Also, Linguistic racism is a thing, at least according to scholarly sources. Maybe some Wikipedia editors think they know better than the sources.
• As I have already told Fram, I didn't deal with the transphobic comment because I felt like the arguments about the alleged sexual abuse of 5th-century royalty and racism were enough for me to deal with right now. I figured that an uninvolved RecentChanges patroller would handle it before long. I also told Fram to consider WP:STREISAND, but here we are anyway, with that link on a high-traffic drama board.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:34, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

You linked to coverage of an 11-year-old being raped by a 36-year-old (among other child rape incidents) as evidence that the topic, with your preferred breadth, was notable. You have yet to explain how the sources you linked would support your retconned narrative that "only boys whose partners weren't convicted of rape should be on the list" -- a threshold that itself is a massive double standard.

How can you still not comprehend that 8–12-year-old boys being forced into marriage and consummation with anyone is still CSA even if their partner is also a victim? If you were so wedded to the idea of moral presentism you wouldn't have claimed the girls in these pairs could be victims of command rape, as if that concept is some absolute historical constant.

And insinuating that Black Kite's comment was an instance of "go back to where you came from" is a straight-up aspersion. JoelleJay (talk) 02:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I do not claim that Black Kite's comment "was" an instance of any sort of reprehensible thought. I claim only that it is not completely unreasonable for someone to have understood it that way, and that it is possible that the newbie who made a general comment, not directed at any specific individual, about racism in the discussion, might have interpreted it that way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• This is blatant hounding by Fram and to a lesser extent Horse Eye's Back and should be met with a WP:BOOMERANG. How long are we going to tolerate Fram (in particular) going after someone all-guns-blazing just because they did or said something they didn't like? Why on earth should WAID have to put up with days of interrogation and demands for "evidence" about her recollection of years-old discussions that she was personally involved in? What do this and the three other "incidents" (in the loosest possible sense of the world), have in common apart from the fact that Fram was lying in wait to jump on each one? – Joe (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  I tend to agree. Having spent far too long thinking about this already. For Fram to claim on here that WAID "basically claimed that men can't be raped", when WAID in their first reply to Fram on the subject, said "I think that young fathers can be victims of child rape" [157] is being careless with the facts at best. Misunderstanding cleared up, that should have been the end of the conversation, but Fram instead replied by accusing WAID of being 'clearly and apparently deliberately sexist and racist' [[158]] the rest is history. JeffUK 19:56, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  I see you still have not actually read the relevant comments. JoelleJay (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I have, I disagree with your interpretation of them. More relevant is the fact you've already made that point to me, I chose not to reply, and now you're following me around making ad-hominem attacks instead of dropping the stick; A common theme in this whole debacle. JeffUK 08:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't doubt you have read the comments, but you seem to mix up two things. Both the comment by WhatamIdoing and my reply were about two incidents. On the first, they said "Accurately describing the demographics in a dispute is not sexist or racist." to which I replied "Making wild, insulting guesses about the people opposing your position is in this case clearly and apparently deliberately sexist and racist." You may of course disagree with this, but this was a reply to the quoted part, not to the part about child rape. The second part of their reply, and the second part of my reply, were about the child rape. No one is denying that the girls in the first deleted list were victims of rape. What is the issue is that WhatamIdoing seems to have a problem with seeing that a royal or noble being married and having children when they are still young children of 12 or so, is also rape, and not only of the girl they have a child with. Forced marriage and forced consummation are serious issues, and living an otherwise wealthy and privileged life, as these boys in many cases had, doesn't change this. For some reason, WhatamIdoing applies current standards to the situation of the girls (e.g. calling it "command rape"), but not to the boys, instead comparing their situation at worst to that of voluntary adult sex workers. They even gave the example of Yazdegerd III, king at 8, a figurehead (no real power), father when he was 12 years old, who they claim by virtue of being king was able to give consent. While I'm clearly in the minority here, I consider their different treatment of boys and girls throughout that discussion as sexist and some comments deeply troubling. Fram (talk) 10:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think the crux of the problem is that you characterise their position as, "WhatamIdoing seems to have a problem with seeing..." This is not a healthy way to characterise someone disagreeing with your opinion, they're not 'missing something' and you're not going to make them 'see the light'. "After nearly a week, I see no progress at all..." again, implies that changing their mind to your position is inevitable 'progress.' You may or may not be right, but assuming you are right, assuming others must agree with you, and persisting in trying to force an apology isn't productive. JeffUK 11:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

If you want to cast aspersions against me you're going to have to provide evidence of WP:HOUNDING. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The evidence is in the linked discussion on WAID's talk page and, as you know, I have pointed out some specific diffs a few comments up. You haven't been as bad as Fram and it's not really out of character from what I've seen of you in other discussions, but it is absolutely astounding to me that you could consider your engagement here in any way mediatory. That is, to use your formulation, either a blatant lie or a sign of a catastrophic failure to predict how your words will be perceived by others. – Joe (talk) 08:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You're going to have to explain how that equals hounding e.g. "the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 08:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, maybe WP:Badgering might be a better description of the behaviour. "Do not badger editors to restate something just because you would have worded it differently" is quite apt. In fact, your comments here [[159]] and here [[160]] are remarkably similar to the very source of the phrase Sealioning [[161]]. JeffUK 13:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I am very familiar with sealioning on wikipedia, that ain't it. I did not ask anyone to restate anything and I haven't followed anyone around... I've contributed to a single discussion split across two pages and I've been the most active commenter in neither conversation. Remeber that "expressing the view that inappropriate relationships are not harmful to children" is prohibited by policy, most views aren't but this one is. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait, what is your issue with the last one? WAID failed to get mad? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm also questioning the purpose of that last bullet point, considering WAID is not opposed to the current phrasing of the trans women sentence in the Woman article, something that the (now-indeffed) user in the discussion railed against. Some1 (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

When one witnesses very bad behaviour, one can look away (understandable), take corrective action (or alert those who can), or pretend no bad behaviour happened and amicably chat with the offender. It's a bit like seeing some blatant vandalism and instead of reverting it or warning the editor (or if you don't like conflict or have the time to deal with it, doing nothing), you post a welcome message at their talk page, invite them to the teahouse, ... Doing this very strongly gives the impression that you are okay with the previous behaviour of that editor, and sends IMO a very bad message to less experienced editors who may come across such a message and get the impression that this is acceptable on Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 12:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

That's one theory. According to Operant conditioning, responding to one part of an action and not others can lead to the extinction of the unreinforced behavior. In that case, "pretend no bad behaviour happened and amicably chat with the offender" about the good behavior might be just what the doctor ordered – literally. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I will be honest with you, I am not to experienced with handling users who say problematic stuff.(Keep in mind this probably due to my age and maturity level.)

But personally I won't respond or say too much to people who say stuff like this "Again, this entire project is rife with identity politics. That much is clear." That just sounds like the kind of stuff my dad would say. Calling out people's prejudice usually goes nowhere; I'm literally a bisexual early twenty some year old christian man in university, I know a thing or 2 about bigoted beliefs.

If I had to respond I would merely just respond to the points the other party made and I would feel no need to respond to their bigoted comments. I especially won't respond to those bigoted comments if that user has been here for years and/or have over 500 edits, because in my eyes they are experienced and know well enough to not to say those things.

Basically bigots from racists, homophobes, nazis, transphobes, and all other bigots can't be reasoned with, they go against all aspects of WP:NPOV policy. This is why these kind of people with such beliefs get blocked indefinitely with out much discussion, notice how Earl of Arundel was blocked indefinitely the same day you reported them.

In a nutshell, I don't see much of a reason to respond to such things because it is a waste of time and it would just be best to report them to admins. I usually feel the need to respond if they are new.CycoMa2 (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep in mind I am currently handling finals, so do forgive the few typos here. I just felt I needed to defend WAID, she is a great contributor by all measurements. Take it from me, I've interacted with her back when I was a sophomore.CycoMa2 (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• This is much ado about nothing and should be closed before the dying star collapses dragging others down with it. Nemov (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
• Fram is asking this community to make what would be, ideologically, an extremely hard-right turn by sanctioning WhatAmIDoing for "racism" and "sexism" based on her use of the phrase "childless white males" to describe a group she was criticizing. Unreal. That he's been allowed to badger WaId for days on end for what isn't even close to a policy violation says so much about the pervasive, immortal problem of untouchable users. This problem's existence is acknowledged by everybody except those untouchable users who, conveniently, are the only ones who could ever put a stop to it. City of Silver 19:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  Both Fram and WhatamIdoing are untouchable/unblockable, so this comment doesn't get us anywhere. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  Let me clarify: I don't care if someone is untouchable if they never actually do anything wildly bad. One of these two editors has egregiously crossed the line while the other hasn't at all so even though both are untouchable, I only have a problem with one of them. City of Silver 20:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think Fram has relied too much on his interpretion of what WhatamIdoing has said rather than on what she has actually said. For example, nowhere (at least not in the link that Fram provides or anywhere else that I can find) does she say that a male can't be raped. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

• While I don't doubt WhatamIdoing's good faith, I think there are things to be concerned about here. The sweeping generalisation about "childless white men living in wealthy democracies" was uncivil: both the gender and the race part were unnecessary stereotyping, even if she was sure of those characteristics in those she remembered participating. "Apparently unconcerned about children" would have sufficed to make the point (I'm not even sure where the "wealthy democracies" conclusion came from). At the AfD, "The List of youngest birth mothers was deleted because editors felt like it was also a "List of child rape victims", which is not relevant for anyone that is (or should be) in this list" does come pretty close to saying boys can't be rape victims. In the third example, that was a nasty personal attack, it does not reflect well on her judgement that she wanted the removal reverted. In the last case, I suspect they didn't read the whole thing, and missed the transphobic bit; again, flawed judgement, but I doubt ikt was deliberate. I disagree that bringing these 4 very recent instances here is hounding, and I'm disturbed at the tone of some of WhatamIdoing's talkpage comments: they seem a bit intolerant of varying perspectives (nolt just mine, which they chose to highlight at one point). But that is their talkpage; none of the instances listed by Fram were there, they were all places where the editor chose to get involved. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't seen anyone argue at any of the linked threads that boys can't be child rape victims. What I've been perceiving (which I grant I also haven't seen articulated anywhere) is a counterargument like the consequences of child rape are uniform across sex assignment of the victim. I certainly hope no one is trying to make a point like that, and anyone who has feelings about my setting the counterargument in "incorrect example" styling is invited to a long sad think about the topic. Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• @Phil Bridger, she said no one on that list (or that should be on that list) was a child rape victim (while making no mention of the child on that list who was a child rape victim), and then immediately proceeded to claim notability of the list topic was achieved through a HuffPo article on an 11-year-old boy who had a child with a 36-year-old and several other articles (from garbage sources!) involving e.g. 12-year-olds molested by 17-year-olds. JoelleJay (talk) 03:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  The "youngest mothers" list read something like this:

  • Five year old, impregnated by her stepfather in the 1930s. Six year old, impregnated by her grandfather in the 1930s. Eight year old, impregnated by her cousin in the 1950s.

  The "youngest fathers" list read like this:

  • 11-year-old future king, with his consort in 14th century. 12-year-old future emperor, with his wife in the 5th century. 12-year-old reigning king, with his wife in the 7th century.

  If those sound like morally comparable situations, then I think you're entitled to your opinion – and I to mine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yes those sound like morally comparable situations, child rape is morally comparable to child rape. It seems weird that I even have to say that or note that children can't consent to sex. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  WP:Presentism comes to mind; while child rape clearly was a moral crime by the 20th century, those earlier centuries were a far different time, and we shouldnt be trying to force modern ideas on those cases. — Masem (t) 17:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  Except there were also multiple modern cases of young fatherhood, including one infamous child rape case, as well as multiple other definite child rape cases cited by WAID as applicable coverage of the topic... The whole reframing it in terms of "but this list was just child kings and at least one case of modern child rape" is a distraction that deliberately ignores the whole "linking to story on 11-year-old raped by his mom's friend" thing that WAID thought would belong on the list (if the child was notable). JoelleJay (talk) 02:11, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  That last "if" clause undercuts your claim that I thought those should be on the list, since what I actually said was exactly the opposite.

  An editor directly asked me at the AFD "Are there any reliable sources at all that actually discuss these people as a grouping"? I provided several easily found sources that did exactly that: discussed it "as a grouping". Some of them I described as "tabloid-y or listicle", which is the opposite of me endorsing their quality or suitability for use in a Wikipedia article, but they answered the question that was asked, which was about whether other publications had a list of youngest fathers. Unlike the one you keep pointing at, most of them involve a teenage girlfriend (e.g., "A 13-year-old boy from ____ will become one of Britain's youngest fathers after his 14-year-old girlfriend became pregnant" or "15-year-old girlfriend ____ became pregnant...DNA tests later proved the baby was instead 14-year-old _____'s child") and almost all of them involve non-notable people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  You cited (mostly very clearly non-RS, which is a separate, quite concerning, problem) articles about individual living boys who were raped, of which some had passing mentions of other boys who may have been raped, as examples of coverage of the topic as a group. If that coverage is supposed to support the notability of the topic, which was the point of that question, then any coverage of an individual that would contribute to notability necessarily would qualify the individual for inclusion on the list if he was notable. Otherwise the coverage is not of the topic (or any subset thereof). Obviously one of those children becoming notable would not disqualify him from inclusion, so his not currently being on the list/notable is irrelevant. It should also be noted that at no point in either your first or second post did you remotely suggest that you did not support the topic's scope, which included the boy raped by his teacher.

  The majority of the articles you linked were not (only) on same-age couples. As I said elsewhere, they also included a 13-year-old boy with a 17-year-old girl who had been dating him since he was 11; a 12-year-old with a 17-year-old; a barely-12-year-old with a 15-year-old; and a 9-year-old. We also have the article on a 13-year-old whose partner we have no info on and thus should apply the same assumptions about age compatibility that we would for a girl: none. These would all be statutory rape in multiple states. JoelleJay (talk) 04:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  They don't need to be morally comparable. As alluded by @Folly Mox, one can believe that a little girl being raped by her father is worse than a 12-year-old king forced to consummate his marriage to his 12-year-old wife, or even than a middle school boy being groomed and raped by his teacher, while still recognizing that the latter two cases could have been/were child rape, and that the topic of the list -- using your definition of what "should be" on it -- unambiguously includes modern boys who were raped. JoelleJay (talk) 02:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  Have you looked for sources saying that the 12-year-old king was forced to consummate his marriage? Even a source hinting that it might have been that way? Any source at all, beyond speculation from a couple of Wikipedia editors? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Frivolous, trouts all around. Per Joe Andre🚐 03:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Agree with and support all of the above comments → hounding ... should have ended days ago ... would be better if everyone voluntarily disengaged and left each other alone ... blatant hounding ... much ado about nothing and should be closed ... Fram has relied too much on his interpretion of what WhatamIdoing has said rather than on what she has actually said ... Frivolous, trouts all around. There's nothing actionable here. Shut this down. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think we should close the thread until we've determined what to do about Fram's behavior. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 18:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, this thread should be shut down, as they oft say, it's generating more heat than light. There's nothing actionable here. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• I had been staying out of the thread at User talk:WhatamIdoing § Sexism and racism because of the respect I hold for both Fram and WhatamIdoing, but now that this has been escalated to a dramaboard, I feel compelled to join others in asking Fram to let this go. This is less tip of the iceberg and more phantom island. Folly Mox (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I wasn't planning on pursuing this after this discussion, and I sure hope that I'm wrong and most of you are right, that would be for the best. Fram (talk) 13:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• I am no doubt going to regret weighing in on this, and it currently doesn't look as though it is going anywhere, but to focus purely on the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of youngest fathers dispute:
  • 1 December: WAID says The List of youngest birth mothers was deleted because editors felt like it was also a "List of child rape victims", which is not relevant for anyone that is (or should be) in this list. The plain reading of this to me is that WAID believes that nobody on the list of youngest fathers was raped.
  • 3 December WAID says As I said, I don't think that this list's selection criteria should include known victims of child rape. The list as presently written contains one victim of statutory rape, and I think that entry should be removed. The part of her comment which is at issue is not though that the list shouldn't include victims of rape, but that it doesn't. (As an aside, the fact that she is willing to characterise the list of youngest birth mothers as "child rape victims", but consistently says that the father in question was a "victim of statutory rape", or "widely recognised as an abusive relationship" or even more passively that the case "involves a conviction for statutory rape" feels deeply uncomfortable to me)
  • Later on 3 December, WAID says on her talkpage that I have added a detailed clarification at your request. the clarification implicitly acknowledges that the father in question's "partner has been convicted of statutory rape" (again with the minimising "has been convicted of statutory rape" versus WAID's characterisation of the mothers' list as documenting "incest and violence committed against these girls"). She still does not strike the original comment which continues to say that nobody on the list was raped (including the young man in question, who at this point WAID clearly knows is on the list).
• Extending as much good faith as I possibly can to WAID, she communicated badly, doubled down when called out on it, and then the argument about the "childless white men" comment (which I think was a bad idea to make but nowhere near as troubling as the List of youngest fathers stuff) distracted everyone from the actual issue. A less charitable reading would be that it's a straightforward violation of WP:CHILDPROTECT. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• I have to admit I was a little baffled by WAID's request for me to unredact an obvious PA, though I am prepared to say that her argument was not problematic, even if I didn't agree with it. The non-reaction to the transphobic rant was a little disappointing, although Wikipedia - whilst being very good at combatting racism and misogyny - is currently worryingly giving a free pass to transphobia in some circumstances, as can be seen by the Telegraph RfC, for example. Black Kite (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Advice - Both parties should walk away from the contentious topics-in-question, for about 3-months. A breather would be best. GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• I've opined above, so this can only be a comment, but I am disturbed by those saying Fram should be sanctioned for bringing this here. Repeated statements that they regard as problematic, followed by digging-in: that's the kind of thing this noticeboard is for, even when the decision is that the reporter was misinterpreting something or making a mountain out of a molehill. And I still see problems with WhatamIdoing's statements and conduct. As I said above, I am willing to extend good faith, but I don't see a collegial allowance for fellow Wikipedians to have different opinions or recognition of the possibility she made a mistake (as I believe she has done in a couple of these instances, including the child rape issue, where I believe what she wrote to be indefensible. Children are children and forced sex is rape). We all have biases and blind spots. Her, me, all of us. The anonymity of Wikipedia makes it all the more vital to recognise that fact and to recognise that we usually don't know who we're talking to—and possibly hurting or doing an injustice to. Fram's direct, but has not been rude here that I've seen. WhatamIdoing should back down a bit. IMO. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I've read the evidence brought forward and would like to state my opinion as someone who often stumbles upon WAID due to overlapping interests. WAID primarily edits medical articles (at least as far as I am aware), and doing so means that you are more likely to get involved with more sensitive topics. It is almost unavoidable to get involved in contentious topics when editing medical pages as much as WAID does. They are often the first to respond to a talkpage message on a medical article or a question on WP:MED. They have provided a lot of sane advice over the years. With that being said, people misword things, or don't explain themselves well enough all the time. This isn't a huge deal if you are only editing non contentious topics. To ban WAID from these topics would be a great diservice to the Wikipedia community. Again I want to emphasize that they are often the first to repond to various queries on medical pages (including contentious topics which again overlap heavily). To limit this would have huge affects. For example, the TBAN proposed would mean WAID would be off limits from Talk:Cass Review where they have made countless helpful contributions. I would agree with others that WAID "is being hounded, their talk page is being used as a forum, and a few editors are trying to find bad faith where none exists". IntentionallyDense ^(Contribs) 01:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

IBAN for Fram

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• Support one-way IBAN for Fram. where they basically claimed that men can't be raped,—this is such an egregious misrepresentation of WAID's comment here that I can't believe it was a good faith misunderstanding—it's either an intentional lie or reckless disregard for the truth. WAID clearly says the exact opposite of what you're claiming in that thread—that at least one boy on that list was sexually abused, and that they would not object to excluding male victims of sexual abuse from that list. IBAN is the bare minimum for slandering^NALT another editor like this, but I don't think we should rule out more severe actions. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 04:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• I support an IBAN for Fram. Maybe make it a 1 week IBAN.CycoMa2 (talk) 05:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• I also support an IBAN for Fram, this is disruptive Big Thumpus (talk) 14:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• support one-way IBAN for Fram--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's not hounding to call out bigotry, and a few people in this discussion have shown their true colors here by endorsing said bigotry. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Fram's "basically claimed that men can't be raped" was in fact about this comment by WAID, where she said that The List of youngest birth mothers was deleted because editors felt like it was also a "List of child rape victims", which is not relevant for anyone that is (or should be) in this list. [my emphasis]. At the time of writing, the list included Vili Fualaau. Fualaau first met Mary Kay Letourneau when he was about seven, and she was a teacher in his school. When she was 34 and he was 12, Letourneau became pregnant with Fualaau's child. She was convicted of raping Fualaau. After she was released, with the condition that she have no further contact with him, she met him repeatedly and became pregnant with another child by him when he was fourteen. She was returned to prison for violating her bail condition. WAID may not have explicitly claimed that men can't be raped, but she certainly claimed that this young man was not raped in a way which plays into a widespread societal belief that men cannot be raped, and we should not fault Fram for reacting strongly to that. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support for both an interaction ban and a community ban for Fram. Acalamari 20:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  Isn't a community ban a bit harsh.CycoMa2 (talk) 21:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose This was not an unreasonable filing, and whilst I don't support any sanction for WAID here I'm a little concerned about the lengths some people have gone to defend something that wasn't ideally stated at the best. Black Kite (talk) 21:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose An IBan isn't for one mis-statement. Trouts for both and let's move on. North8000 (talk) 21:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I'd expect to see a prolonged an intractible history of poor engagement with a specific user before even considering an iban. I'm not seeing that here. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose No one comes out of this covered in glory. Far too extreme a measure. Completely over-the-top reaction. Per Black Kite and Thebiguglyalien. And who the hell is User:Big Thumpus? SerialNumber54129^{A New Face in Hell} 21:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - I found the original statement, to which Fram objected, to be offensive. Anyone talking shit about childless women as a class like that would be keelhauled. Fram's response? A bit over-the-top, in my estimation, but not sanction-worthy. Carrite (talk) 22:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MAB registering accounts

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While doing {{help me}}s I came across CanDanSanFranBanARan(dom)Man (whoneeds to be blocked, obviously). AFAIK MAB has previously only used VPNGate IPs, no registered accounts, so we might be a new problem, as unlike protecting the Teahouse and Help Desk, there's no way to prevent help me's like this. Anything we could do about this? '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 12:28, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

They always have made accounts IIRC; nothing new here. Ca ^{talk to me!} 13:14, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I really thought the San Fran Ban would put an end to this. He needs to take it up with them. SMDH -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 13:24, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Using rotating accounts for edit warring

The user Æ is a good character rotates between two accounts, Æ's old account wasn't working and Ægc's friendly xbox alt, as well as at least two IPs, 2403:4800:351A:BE15:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 2001:8003:58EA:E700:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), to engage in edit warring. In the most recent example, Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing, the user added unnecessary wording, to which I disagreed. Instead of following WP:BRD, the user reinstated their edit with another account, stating only "I am not a sock. I am not a sock. Remain calm." instead of engaging in any sort of dicussion. After I referred to WP:BRD explicitly, the user's next revert, again from another account, reiterated: "Do not panic. This is still me. I am not a sock. Both of my accounts are out of action at the moment, but they are not banned. I am not a sock. I am not a sock. I am not a sock.", once again not attempting to settle the issue via a discussion.

This is not an isolated case, however. The following examples, from the past month alone, come to mind:

• Spacewar!: The user makes a factual error that I challenge. After one commentless revert, they are reverted by another user (Rhain), and their second revert only reads "Just get over it mate, you're probably not gonna be winning this one anyway; this is not a threat". Their following two undos claim "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!" and "Fight me. Just fight me.", only ceasing their warring when a third user intervened.
• Grand Theft Auto (video game): The user introduced unsoucred claims and is reverted by Rhain. After they partially reinstate their edit, another user enforces WP:NOPIPE, which the user reverts without comment. After being reverted with reference to the guideline involved, the user claims "Why does everything I touch automatically devolve into an edit war? Because of you. Yeah, you. Maybe." and only stopped when I reverted them.
• List of largest empires: I was not involved in this one, but the user went back and forth with two others, including comments like "Looks like we should prepare for war..."
• Animator vs. Animation: Another article Rhain was involved in; the user reverts Rhain without comment three times within 13 hours, and provided no rationale even after the minor edit war ended.

The user appears to intentionally provoke edit wars while often blaming the issue on the other user(s) involved, with individual edit summaries almost leaning into WP:NOTHERE territory, especially after the user has already been on this platform for a little over two years and will have come across the most important guidelines in this time.

This report was initially posted to WP:AN3, but Bbb23 suggested it be posted here instead.

IceWelder [✉] 14:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

To add onto this, they've gotten involved in edit wars on Terminator 2: Judgment Day and have made some very WP:NOTHERE statements like "Attack me more, and you may face a rain of terror from my also-usually-non-disruptive alts (they never disrupt articles, but for users, that's a different story)" and the statements made on their talk page here, alongside seemingly taking the mick out of another user for making a simple mistake, shown here.

They seem generally constructive in terms of their copyediting, but there are a bunch of issues piling up here. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 14:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Wow... I really don't like them saying Just get over it mate, you're probably not gonna be winning this one anyway; this is not a threat. There's very clearly a bad history here and consistent edit warring by @Æ's old account wasn't working. I'm tempted to indef them altogether, but I recognize the nature of their edits haven't been super controversial (just entirely unnecessary), but their behaviour has clearly been disruptive and inappropriate. I'll leave it for another admin, because I don't typically handle behaviour related blocks like this, but I'd support a month long block so that they can actually recognize the issues that they're causing and be given a chance to do better. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The urge to indef is strong. I guess I'm in a good mood, though. I blocked the latest IP range long-term to stop the logged-out editing. I also blocked the Xbox alternate account, seeing as how it's being used to join in edit wars. And that threat to use alternate accounts to harass someone was over-the-top. However, my hope is that this was a moment of stupidity from a young editor. Maybe blocking the alternate accounts will send enough of a message that this kind of behavior is not tolerated. I settled for a week long block on the main account. I think this is a really light sanction given all the problems here, but the edit warring seems to be the primary problem. If this turns out to not be enough of a warning, I guess we can always do the indef block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I think you made the right decision,I feel as if this is a editor who may be a tad bit immature (given his actions), but who has good intentions (?). . . L.E. Rainer 01:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: just checking, did you mean to leave User:Æ is a good character entirely unblocked? (It looks to be the "old account that isn't working" but-) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems to be abandoned. I guess I could block it anyway with a note that it's been abandoned in favor of the new account. The problem is that sometimes people report situations like this at SPI ("the master was blocked, but there's a sock puppet still active") without realizing that someone has been restricted to a single account instead of being kicked off the island. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate, could you clarify things for me because with all of these accounts, it's not clear to me what their "main account" is. Is it User:Æ's old account wasn't working? It's not User:Æ which is a different account from years ago. I'd just like to know who all of these IPs and alts track back to. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Liz All of the accounts appear to link back to User:Æ is a good character, which was created back in 2022. User:Æ's old account wasn't working appears to show a vague timeline of their accounts. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 13:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, basically that. Æ is a good character is the original account, but the password was lost. Æ's old account wasn't working is now the main account being used. This account was temporarily blocked, and the other accounts were indefinitely blocked because the user threatened to use them to harass people. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I would definitely like some feedback from this user about how their accounts "stop working." It seems like an excuse to create multiple accounts to obfuscate their editing. Accounts don't just stop working; if they forgot their passwords there is a way to rectify that. This edit summary in particular (Both of my accounts are out of action at the moment) is very odd. What does "out of action" mean? How does an account become "out of action" after being used within the last week? Considering the disruption being caused, I would submit that we need an explanation from them about this, with the goal of getting them to settle on a single account to be used from now on. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes people think they need to create a new account for every device they have access to. When they don't have access to that device, they think the account is unusable. I've seen this before at WP:SPI. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

NPOV violations, refusing to cooperate

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This userhas been a pain for the past few hours. They challenge seemingly every edit made to pages that they follow (the links all bring you to talk page discussions from the Nancy Mace article, one of their personal favorites) and they have been warned on their talk page many times for NPOV violations. The thing that sparked this report was this talk page discussion (again on Nancy Mace) where they argued and rambled incoherently and refused to actually bring up a credible source. I already discussed this with @Luke Elaine Burke and we both tried (unsuccessfully) to defuse the situation. I'm hoping someone with some admin powers can scare this user back into being normal, or even better, maybe taking away their ability to use talk pages for a bit since all the user does with talk pages is scream into the void. If you want some more details on another specific incident, I made a Teahouse thread about it. Thank you. ApteryxRainWing🐉 | Roar with me!!! | My contributions 22:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add, in addition to everything above, Arbeiten8 has been warned multiple times for similar situations. L.E. Rainer 23:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I put a lot of time, labor, and efforts into documenting facts. I added close to 60 references to the article Protecting Women's Private Spaces Act that grew out of the discussion of the Talk:Nancy Mace. ApteryxRainWing came out there helping flesh out the arguments and contributed albeit without any references I readily point to. ApteryxRainWing even voted in my favor to keep the article! Arbeiten8 (talk) 23:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi there, I hope you are well. This response does not relate in any way to what this complaint is about and, in my opinion, does not constitute as a valid argument. It seems that you have not taken the time to consider or read what we are proposing here. This will be my last response to this situation, and I will let other people weigh in on what needs to be done here! Thanks, L.E. Rainer 23:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I have topic-banned @Arbeiten8 from editing about transgender people, broadly construed, for three months. @Arbeiten8: I hope you can use this time to edit productively in other areas and come to better understand the neutral point of view policy. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I am taken aback especially with the opposition coming from ApteryxRainWing who wasn't discussing with her individual objections. I can't fathom the claim that I refuse to cooperate when there was ample opportunity to discuss each of my edit on the Nancy Mace talk page and its outgrowth Protecting Women's Private Spaces Act. An editor should be allow to express dissent with references and facts. Banning dissent creates a tyrannical platform. Arbeiten8 (talk) 23:58, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not "banning dissent". You are free to hold whatever political views you like and express them elsewhere. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that we attempt to write from a neutral point of view. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

So, ApteryxRainWing is neutral while citing zero references in her discussion at Talk:Nancy Mace and basically expressing opinions without any citations. On the other hand, I am biased when citing around 10 references from CNN, PBS, LGBTQ Nation, Nancy Mace herself, Congress.gov , House.gov, and other references on the same Talk:Nancy Mace? Isn't it one-sided to not ask ApteryxRainWing to cite any references while dismissing a dozen of my references out-of-hand? Arbeiten8 (talk) 00:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You started a discussion titled "Don't be afraid to use judgment when RS is wrong". Your stated intent is to insert your own "judgment" into articles. @ApteryxRainWing's conduct is not at issue here. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

First, I am the person that originally added that CNN reference to the article. I was discussing how my own reference can help us think critically to refine the article to make it factual and neutral in light of Nancy's 2020 campaign ads against Joe Cunningham and 2022 ads against Annie Andrews. I was seeking an educated discussion based on references to refine the paragraph. The 6 facts I listed based on Mace's Congressional record isn't my judgment. It doesn't seem up-and-up to state opinions and objections with zero references and unwillingness to research by which is akin to saying, ""And that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold said so!" Arbeiten8 (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Since we are continuing to cherry-pick certain parts of arguments without recognizing and addressing the central point, is the "Stone Cold" Steve Austin quote a subtle reference at popular NBC show The Good Place? I sincerely hope you can see the errors you are making in your judgment and arguments. I will of course stop responding after this, as I feel as if you may be trolling at this point and responding for attention, but I will assume good faith. This situation may just be based in spur of the moment anger, and if so I encourage you to come back to the site at a later time. If this is not the case, I still wish you the best.

L.E. Rainer 01:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to reverse my decision as you have not persuaded me that you understand or are willing to comply with NPOV (as well as WP:SYNTH). If you would like, you may appeal your topic ban further pursuant to the contentious topic appeals procedure. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You haven't persuaded me that you understand why statements need to be cited with references. Arbeiten8 (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Because saying "no you" to an admin is totally going to work out. Drop the stick and back away from the dead horse. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You think that I want to curry favor with an unpaid laborer? Arbeiten8 (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:STOPDIGGING. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

haha this is great! Finally got it out of you. Thanks! L.E. Rainer 02:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC) @Bbb23@Liz

Oh, to expand - I feel that the continued disrespect and pattern of behaviour from this user definitely warrants an investigation or consideration of the abuse of power, and the alternative motives given the harassment of a neutral bystander who is just trying to help. L.E. Rainer 02:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I will not flatter you or anyone. Arbeiten8 (talk) 02:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much. L.E. Rainer 23:59, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

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MAB

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... is on a spree again. See ListUsers with MarkBlocked on. I assume proxies are to blame for the rapid account creation. Perhaps a wider IP block is in order. JayCubby 23:59, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@JayCubby, if you're seeing that the users are blocked, the obvious conclusion here is that administrators are already aware. Please keep WP:DENY in mind. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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Personal attacks at Talk:Syria

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Scu ba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) LibertarianLibrarian85 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These two editors are arguing on the same side of a content dispute re: flags, and have resorted to PAs to get their points across.

[162] - LL85 calls editors "Assadists" and "Rojavaboos" and accuses them of "obstructionism" in the header.

[163][164] - Scu ba calls editors "deranged", then doubles down after being asked not to by @Chaotic Enby:.

Scu ba, a 7-year old account, likely should know better than to double down on a PA while aware they are in a CTOP, so I think this warrants a closer look at their conduct, such as this diff at 2024 Israeli invasion of Syria where they call something "laughable".

As for LL85, with 79 edits over 4 years, the "obstructionism" charge raises the temperature instantly and does not conduct well with civil discussion, but rather appears quite WP:BATTLEGROUND-y. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 01:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

How on earth can you argue to keep using the Assadist flag or no flag? the rebels have won, we should have the rebel's flag in the infobox. There has never been a more clean and cut case for changing a flag in an infobox. Do you honestly think in 6 months the rebels are going to go "actually we should keep using Assad's flag"? Deranged: Insane, crazy. Insane: in a state of extreme annoyance or distraction. You really think that is problematic enough to warrant taking to admins? Scuba 01:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, the issue is not the content dispute (I don't even have a strong opinion about it one way or the other), the issue is that I've already asked you twice to stop calling other opinions "deranged" and you're still at it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 01:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Scuba: The personal attacks that you toss around so freely even in this thread are a serious problem. You need to stop. Thanks. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Both Scu ba and LibertarianLibrarian85 have been 4im'd for NPA. Comment on content, not contributors, people. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

GhostOfDanGurney, ideally, these warnings should have been posted before considering bringing a dispute to ANI. Unless it's an urgent problem, talk first before coming to a noticeboard. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, I did talk with @Scu ba beforehand, although I didn't necessarily see it as urgent enough to warrant a 4im or an ANI report. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 02:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Scu ba was more of an "ought to know better" for me, especially after not heeding Chaotic Enby's advice. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 02:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not particularly that we want to keep using the flag (I can't say whether or not, I am not knowledgeable in the topic), it's how you're going about arguing you point. Personal attacks are strictly against the rules. To be fair, while your side may (or may not. again, not knowledgeable) be correct, your actions make you wrong. Shovel Shenanigans (talk) 02:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:Roby2029!

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Roby2029! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a relatively new user who has been making a large number of edits, which I believe to be in good faith, but almost all have had to be reverted. They have not responded to any messages left on their talk page. They seem to edit via mobile so it's possible they haven't seen them.

This seems to be a case of WP:CIR though this editor likely has the potential to make good contributions if they take the guidance that has been offered to them on board. Would a short block be warranted to draw attention to their talk page messages and pause their current editing spree?

They also have another account at RobyLiverpoolMersyside! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Orange sticker (talk) 10:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Pinging DrKay as they have left a message on this user's talkpage. Orange sticker (talk) 10:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

On occasion they veer almost close to relevant, or well intentioned, but far too many just misunderstand the topics that they are editing or seem to be intent on pushing a particular POV. And of course vast majority (I won't say all as I haven't looked at all their edits) are unsupported, and almost immediately reverted as such. Koncorde (talk) 11:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I blocked the editor. The old account is stale and I've left it alone. Communication is a must, and I blocked them because of the lack thereof. Drmies (talk) 20:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:The Amazing Spider-Mann

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EditingWhileLoggedOut was blocked as a sock of LTA user DarwinandBrianEdits. Immediately after the block, The Amazing Spider-Mann began making identical edits (redundant notes about the locations of Florida counties). WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

If y'all really have a problem with me making these kinds of edits then why dont y'all just protect the pages or add invisible notes saying not to add them lol

Reverting them and leaving messages on my talk page about it and blocking me over and over is not gonna stop me

The Amazing Spider-Mann (talk) 14:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say a checkuser seems apropos based on this reply. Simonm223 (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

No need. Quite obviously the LTA. 331dot (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

LTA. Blocked w/TPA removed. 331dot (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Glad this was resolved. I guess just to add my two cents, I had earlier reported them for being a sock. Gaismagorm (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@331dot user:Loxahatchee just popped up, seems to be doing a similar thing. Gaismagorm (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Looks like that's his strategy today. 331dot (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@331dot user:Everyday Christmas Jinglin' as well Gaismagorm (talk) 14:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

at this point, should I even bother leaving the ANI tag on their talk pages? Gaismagorm (talk) 14:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

If they're going to continue sockpuppetry, probably not. / RemoveRedSky ^(t) 14:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@331dot sorry for another ping but user:New Year's Rockin' Eve! as well. Gaismagorm (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Right now I'm working on protecting as many of their target articles as I can. 331dot (talk) 14:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

good idea, I'll leave you to that Gaismagorm (talk) 14:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@331dot: The sock is likely User:MidAtlaenticBaby, who has been threatening to kill me for several months (and spamming multiple boards through anonymous IPs). As I recall, this was the same Florida edit they had been making last summer. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It absolutely is. 331dot (talk) 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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Jacobolus and WP:ASPERSION

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I'm not here to discuss the content dispute at Binomial theorem but to report Jacobolus's behaviour when they come through a content dispute and for WP:ASPERSIONS. Days ago I removed some content that, according to me, was poorly sourced. I was reverted by JayBeeEll, but I decided to revert them few days later after having checked again the quality or the sources. Then came Jacobolus, they reverted my edit and while I tried to discuss the matter on the talk page, this user accused me of bieng rude, insulting the sources and so on [165]. From that point on, Jacobolus kept editing the article without any consensus, even reverting my status quo edit, my compromise edit and is now thretening me to keep reverting me. I would like to know if this is a normal behaviour from such an experienced editor. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The diffs provided don't demonstrate any evidence of wrongdoing on the part of @Jacobolus I'd suggest trouting the OP for creating a frivolous drama board post and closing promptly as no action before a group of very experienced editors decide to start airing their personal grievances with each other on the drama board in a hopefully-not-inevitable game of duck the boomerang. Simonm223 (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Labelling legit concerns about the sources as "insults" and "rude" and threatening to edit war aren't considered wrongdoing ? If so, then I agree with closing this report.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Can someone help me out at talk:Binomial theorem? I'm getting quite frustrated by now. Wikaviani blanked a perfectly fine paragraph twice based on a complaint about the sources being too far removed from the topic, so I tracked down some closer secondary sources by subject experts. Then they continued to repeatedly remove perfectly fine material with heavily sarcastic comments about the new sources. I asked them several times to knock it off with the insulting language, and the only response was (a) further insulting language directed at me and several scholars living and dead, and (b) comments along the lines of the post here. –jacobolus (t) 15:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not insulting the sources when I say that they are not expert for that specific field. All of them are respectable scholars, mathematicians, physicians, etc, but none of them is an expert source in the field of history of maths in Asia. Also, why did you revert my compromise and status quo edits and threaten me of an edit war ? I told you that I agreed with all your edits except the one about Pascal's triangle, which is an extraordinary claim about Indian mathematicians having discovered this triangle 7 centuries before Pascal. Honestly, I would also apreciate some help there too, since I find very difficult to have a constructive discussion with Jacobolus, evry time we have a disagreement, I get accusations of being rude or insulting the sources.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Alright, on what basis do you bemoan the sources, @Wikaviani? Do you have more professional, WP:SME sources that you can cite by Asian maths historians in replacement of perfectly fine sources by the scholars familiar with the subject? Otherwise, I'd suggest you knock it off on that measure.

As for Pascal's triangle and your concerns with WP:FRINGE: can you either prove that the source about it is unreliable by presenting evidence that it is fringe, or can you find other sources that provide information contrary to the current? I'm sure Pascal's Triangle wouldn't be too hard to do that for. BarntToust 15:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I will gladly discuss the matter at Talk:Binomial theorem if you want, I opened this report to know if it is normal for an editor (Jacobolus) to behave with fellow Wikipedians who disagree with them like that (false accusations of insults, owning the article, and so on).

The claim i want to remove is about the history of maths and, sadly, mathematicians and physicians are not historians, i checked on Google the fields of expertise of the sources cited by Jacobolus, I found that they are not complying with the criteria of what a reliable source is, here on wikipedia, namely :

• The piece of work itself (the article, book)
• The creator of the work (the writer, journalist)
• The publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press)

You can take a look at this edit of mines for that. As to the theory about the discovery of Pascal's triangle, we have several expert sources like Roshdi Rashed who claim that it was discovered by a mathematician named Al Karaji and this is said few lines later in the article. So Jacobolus has listed not less than 8 weak sources to support a claim that is rejected by our best sources and everytime I say that, I am accused of insults towards the sources. As I said, I agree with most of their work, which is well-sourced, but this specific sentence is an extraordinary claim that requires multiple good sources. when I said that to Jacobulus, they responded "If you remove this perfectly fine sentence you will be reverted. Your personal understanding of sourcing policy does not accord with WP:RS and your behavior and comments here continue to well outside Wikipedia policy and norms.".---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

For folks here, here's a close literal translation of the 10th century source:

"After drawing a square on the top, two squares are drawn below (side by side) so that half of each is extended on either side. Below it three squares, below it (again) four squares are drawn and the process is repeated till the desired pyramid is attained. In the (topmost) first square the symbol for one is to be marked.. Then in each of the two squares of the second line figure one is to be placed. Then in the third line figure one is to be placed on each of the two extreme squares. In the middle square (of the third line) the sum of the figures in the two squares immediately above is to be placed; this is the meaning of the term pūrṇa. In the fourth line one is to be placed in each of the two extreme squares. In each of the two middle squares, the sum of the figures in the two squares immediately above, that is, three, is placed. Subsequent squares are filled in this way."

Saying that this is the same as Pascal's triangle seems more like self-evident than extraordinary, if you ask me. For reference, here's the top few rows of what we now call Pascal's triangle:

${\begin{array}{c}1\\1\quad 1\\1\quad 2\quad 1\\1\quad 3\quad 3\quad 1\\1\quad 4\quad 6\quad 4\quad 1\\\end{array}}$

–jacobolus (t) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Wikaviani, can you present the best sources? Otherwise, what is there now will do until the SMEs are researched and added.

I must admit, as a person disinterested in the field of maths, there needs to be more modern sources published in reliable journals to support claims, such as a source that by name calls it, say, a precursor to the triangle. In short, is there any documentation of this source as the first instance of or an aperitif to the triangle? BarntToust 17:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are asking for, but there are numerous and varied sources calling this the same as Pascal's triangle, written by a variety of authors over a wide range of time periods, including sources about Vedic metres, about the history of Indian mathematics in general, about the history of combinatorics, or more generally about the history of broad areas of mathematics. Authors include close subject experts who did detailed examination of this specific topic, career historians of Indian mathematics who wrote high-level survey books about it and were editors of math history journals, career mathematical historians focusing on other regions or time periods mentioning it for comparison, and professional mathematicians who published significant books about the history of mathematics in reputable publishers or peer reviewed papers in reputable math history journals. All of the sources listed are well within the bounds of WP:RS, several of them have been quite widely cited, and frankly we're already well into "citation overkill" land.

I really don't understand the problem, and I don't understand why Wikaviani continues to call professional historians "unreliable", not "serious", not "expert", suggest that the Indian journals and professional societies are not reputable, and so on. –jacobolus (t) 17:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, shoot, that's good to hear, if these sources are reliable, then all is well. Wikaviani seems to believe some sources are not good enough, when they are in their eyes B+ or A- sources, wanting A+ or S-tier level sources that don't seem to be anywhere close to being produced.

If it's not any more trouble over this concern, let's make this subject a distant memory, no? Now, onto the specifics about Pascal's triangle. BarntToust 18:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but those sources from Pascal's triangle contradict what Jacobolus wants to include in the article about the binomial theorem.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You make a good point, which is that the history section at Pascal's triangle is also substantially incomplete and should be expanded. –jacobolus (t) 18:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, but first, you need to find the relevant sources for that and avoid behaving like you do at Talk:Binomial theorem with non expert sources to counterbalance the above expert sources.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

"I really don't understand the problem, and I don't understand why Wikaviani continues to call professional historians "unreliable", not "serious", not "expert""

Maybe because those sources are either outdated or not from specialized historians, as I already told you multiple times.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry, I have been linking to WP:SME, which is subject matter editors, and irrelevant to the discussion. @Wikaviani, I meant to say, please find these subject-matter expert historians/scientists you seem so keen on comparing to the works of the current, adequate-yet-not-absolutely perfect sources.

Another thing: Old doesn't mean bad, okay? Shakespeare's works are centuries old, yet still remain some of the finest writing ever produced by humanity. If since newer research might almost always supersedes old understandings, it is the burden of you to show what is better. BarntToust 18:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, old does not mean bad, but in the field of scientific researches, age matters. I don't get you about the expert sources, I listed some of them above and they are cited in the article about Pascal's triangle with precise page numbers and cannot be challenged by non expert sources (WP:UNDUE)---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

My speculation is that this is an ideological fight aimed at scoring points for one ancient culture over another which has been dressed up, as a wikilawyering strategy, as a fight about source credibility. Otherwise I can't come up with an explanation for demonstrated zeal and uncivil behavior.

We have two non-contradictory, uncontroversial, and widely repeated claims here:

1. The earliest known example of something close to the binomial theorem per se – that is, expansion of an algebraic expression like $(x+y)^{n}={}$${\tbinom {n}{0}}x^{n}+{\tbinom {n}{1}}x^{n-1}y+{}$$\cdots +{\tbinom {n}{n}}y^{n}$ – can be found al-Samawʾal's 12th century work al-Bāhir, credited by him to a now-lost work by al-Karajī (c. 1000).
2. Indian scholars of poetic metres investigated the same numbers ⁠${\tbinom {n}{k}}$⁠ (combinations or binomial coefficients) many centuries earlier than that, including arranging them in a shape like (the modern form of) Pascal's triangle by the 10th century, and in a form nearly identical to Pascal's 1665 arrangement (also found in Cardano 1570) by the 6th century.

These two claims are substantially independent, and Rashed making claim (1) without saying anything about Indian mathematics is not a rejection of claim (2) – indeed it's entirely unsurprising that in Rashed's book about the history of Islamic arithmetic and algebra and in a chapter specifically concerned with whether al-Samawʾal's work used mathematical induction or not, he wouldn't go on long digressions about Indian investigations of poetic metres.

For some reason though, Wikaviani is insisting that anything not mentioned in Rashed's 1994 book must be "extraordinary" and it's not sufficient to have either close subject experts or broader experts writing survey sources making the claim, because they aren't, for Wikaviani, good enough.

It's entirely unclear what would be acceptable as a source: for any possible source added Wikaviani seems to be able to come up with some kind of reason to reject it, often involving making false claims about the author, impugning their reputation, insulting me personally, or making sarcastic dismissals with air quotes and rhetorical questions.

Claim (2) is even made (in a slightly mangled way) by Robertson in MacTutor History of Mathematics Archive, one of the two authors Wikaviani previously specifically called out as a source they support. (I don't think this reference is worth using in the article, because it is a mention in passing and stated slightly incorrectly.) –jacobolus (t) 19:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Rashed is clear and leaves no room for doubt in his work when he says that the first description of Pascal's triangle to our knowledge is to be found in a now lost work from Al Karaji.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@BarntToust: Yes, of course, we have several high quality sources at Pascal's triangle, among which, Roshdi Rashed's book (published in 1994) "The Development of Arabic Mathematics Between Arithmetic and Algebra" (page 63), The "Encyclopedia of the history of science, Technology and Medicine in non western cultures", Helen Selin (a book published in 2008) and "From Alexandria, Through Baghdad", published in 2013 by Nathan Sidoli and Glen van Brummelen, both historians.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Well yes, do they have anything to say on Asian origins of the concept? If not, that means nothing. If they refute this info, great for your argument. If they agree, well, huh, I guess that an extraordinary claim about Indian mathematicians having discovered this triangle 7 centuries before Pascal will be proven. BarntToust 18:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

They don't support the discovery of the triangle by Indian mathematicians, rather by a Muslim mathematician named Al Karaji c.1000 AD, that's the point.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok both of you see how this is entirely a content dispute, right? Can we please get a mercy close on this? Simonm223 (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. While we're here, however, I would appreciate it if Wikaviani could desist from further sarcasm and insulting language directed at either me or at professional historians. –jacobolus (t) 19:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Here we go, more baseless accusations ... where are my insults ? Ok for closing this, but we have no solution for the content issue.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I listed them for you and your only reply was "if my comments were insults, go ahead and report me". It's not clear that there's much point in repeating this again here, where everyone already seems tired of this conversation.

To help resolve a content dispute it's much more useful to recruit eyeballs from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History of Science. I have to run but I'll open a discussion on WPM when I get a chance. –jacobolus (t) 20:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Those were not insults, and everybody here can see that. I'll proceed from the above links then, or, you can go ahead.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

We've been over this repeatedly, but since you really keep insisting:

I cited some of the best known, most influential, and most celebrated historians of Indian mathematics (e.g. Radha Charan Gupta and Bibhutibhushan Datta) and and you dismissed them as "nothing very impressive, some obscure mathematicians of Indian origin".

Amulya Bag (Google scholar page, IAS page) is a professional historian of Indian mathematics and science who wrote multiple books on the subject and from 2002–2018 was the editor of the Indian Journal of History of Science, one of the top journals about the topic.

Can you understand how it might read as insulting when you first call his paper a '"source"' with sarcastic quotation marks around it, then later throw similar sarcasm quotes around his name itself, as part of a string of rhetorical questions whose sarcasm is further highlighted with italics: 'So according to you, "Amulya Kumar Bag" is a world class expert? Wow, so how many influencial books has this guy published? with what publisher? how many awards has he? how about his academic career?' Later you followed up with claiming he "has not the expertise to challenge prominent historians", called his work not "serious" and a "poor source", said he is "not expert in the field of history of maths" and "not an expert historian of maths", and called him "unreliable".

I don't know what problem you have with Prof. Bag, but your comments here have been, and continue to be, inappropriate. See WP:BLPTALK for more. –jacobolus (t) 20:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with Bag and WP:BLPTALK is completely irrelevant here, just stop throwing baseless accusations of "insults" around. Bag's work is 60 years old source and I do not consider it as a world class expert, there is no insult here.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Amen to that, Simon. A mercy close to the bickering, por favor. BarntToust 19:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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Goswami21 not adhering to consensus and engaging in personal attacks.

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• Goswami21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The article S. B. Deorah College, which was first created by Goswami on November 12, was nominated by me for AfD, but it was later closed as G11. Subsequently, Pharoh redirected the article to Gauhati University, which was not an issue. However, Goswami later removed the redirect and recreated the article. I had to nominate it again for AfD on November 18, where the consensus was to redirect the article to List of colleges affiliated to the Gauhati University. This closure was handled by OwenX on November 23.

After the article was redirected, Goswami recreated it again on December 8, going against the AfD consensus. When I restored the article as per the AfD decision and notified him on his talk page, he reverted my edit and made a personal attack, stating: I think you have some mental issue. GrabUp - Talk 17:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Goswami - instead of recreating the article against consensus, if you think there's new significant information that could overturn the AfD, head to WP:DRV. FifthFive (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked the user for one week for disruption and personal attacks.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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Jwa05002 engaging in repeated personal attacks and aspersions

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Jwa05002 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is happening over on Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely. Currently, there is an open move request, wherein this user has made their position clear. Several different times, in fact, responding to most or all disagreements [166][167][168], and including outside the discussion in question [169][170], to a point that, in my view, reaches WP:BLUDGEONING levels.

However, the main reason I'm making this report is that last diff. In order:

• Akechi The Agent Of Chaos stated that schizophrenia can't kill you itself [171]
• Jwa05002 responded with Schizophrenia absolutely leads to a higher mortality rate (among people who are diagnosed with it) and is used frequently as a contributing factor to a person’s death according to the NIH.[172]
• I responded that this was a disingenuous reading of "schizophrenia as a contributor of death".[173] I also signaled my personal discomfort, as a schizophrenic person, for the way that disease had been weaponized in the debate, and that I wished "people", in general, stopped circulating misinformation about it.

In my view, this was a reasonable request, as this weaponization of something I suffer from, done for ideological justifications by parties like Daniel Penny's selected forensic pathologist, in this extremely political debate about vigilantism, is offensive to me, personally. I did mean the idea of weaponization more as a general assessment of what had been said during the Penny trial as a whole, rather than a specific accusation towards this specific user, with the only caveat being that if the user keeps making the (false) claim that schizophrenia is a direct physical contributor to a choking death, I would find it offensive.

Of course, uninvolved users are free to judge for themselves whether this was an unfounded aspersion.

The more basic point here is that, regardless of whether I was right or not to talk of weaponization, I believe I made evident my discomfort at the way schizophrenia was being rhetorically handled here. And to be clear, at this point, as shown by my original comment, [174] I was neither clamoring for any specific retraction, nor asking them to stop commenting; my only goal was to signal to them to perhaps moderate their language a little, due to this being a sensitive topic, to me specifically.

• In response, this person doubled down on the claim I found offensive, while simultaneously accusing me of "weaponizing [my own illness]", and of trying to "silence discussion [I] don’t like".

While I suppose that one could theoretically make the argument, no matter how spurious I find it, that I was "weaponizing" an illness I myself suffer from, am familiar with, and have discussed with plenty of medical experts, within this conversation, I believe at the very least that the bad-faith reading of my contention here is completely inappropriate. There was a statement I found offensive, as someone personally involved in the topic, and I signaled that personal offense. There is no intent to "silence" anyone (as can be shown by the fact I did not prevent anybody from discussing in the move request or on the page as a whole, nor did I seek to shut down most of the arguments here), merely to stop people from spreading a false claim that I found hurtful.

• When I laid out how uncomfortable this accusation made me, warned them about the policy on personal attacks and aspersions, and urged them to retract their statements, their reaction was to double down on these aspersions once again, and then again following my last response.

I would appreciate an apology for, and retraction of, at least the aspersions, and ideally the offensive claims as a whole; but at a minimum, I believe this editor, at least concerning this particular topic, seems to be unable to work collaboratively, and civilly. So, either a temporary block, to give them a chance to reflect, or a topic ban, in my view, may be justified here (edit: having reflected on it, I don't actually know if a topic ban would be appropriate, because apart from this incident, I can't definitively state that the user's behavior on the topic was particularly beyond the pale; I think just an acknowledgement that their behavior, specifically towards me, was not appropriate, may be enough for me here). LaughingManiac (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I provided citations to scientific studies and expert opinions (reported by reliable sources) that schizophrenia absolutely can be a factor in people’s deaths (similar to the way depression would be considered a factor in a suicide)

The user responded by bringing up their personal diagnosis as schizophrenic (this was unnecessary and irrelevant to the discussion, as was their assertion of being grossly offended, again by the opinion of experts and scientific studies)

The person then implied I was spreading misinformation (despite multiple cites of scientific studies and expert opinions) and stated misinformation shouldn’t be shared. Again, the implication in that statement is clear…..they wanted to silence discussion they disagreed with.

There has now been an admin complaint and a suggestion I be banned from any discussion on the topic. If anything this a far clearer example of bludgeoning than anything I’ve. These users are quite literally attempting to bludgeon me into silence about this topic.

If anything these users seem far too personally and emotionally close to the topic at hand to speak objectively about it (again, they are calling scientific studies and the opinions of experts “misinformation”) Jwa05002 (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Although I feel I laid out the situation well, I do need to correct your basic misrepresentations here.

"schizophrenia absolutely can be a factor in people’s deaths (similar to the way depression would be considered a factor in a suicide)"

This is not what the assertion you made implied. Your original statement was correct on its face (i.e. it is true that "schizophrenia leads to a higher mortality rate"), and no one was challenging you on this.

However, the context here is a discussion wherein the question is "Was schizophrenia, the mental illness, a direct physical contributing factor to a person's death, and more so than the minutes-long chokehold said person was subjected to?" (as Akechi's quote above clearly implies, since it does not state that "schizophrenia can't be a factor in people's deaths", but rather that "schizophrenia can't kill you itself").

Within this context, the statement you're deriving from the defense's pathologist, which suggests that schizophrenia was some sort of direct physical contributing factor in the victim's death equivalent to "sickle cell crisis" and "synthetic marijuana" ("Chundru said he believed Neely died from “the combined effects of sickle cell crisis, the schizophrenia, the struggle and restraint and the synthetic marijuana” that was in his system") is, as I've mentioned, misinformation concerning schizophrenia.

"I provided citations to scientific studies and expert opinions"

I would also remind you that this perspective you shared was only one within the debate, and that other "expert opinions" were raised in objection of Chundru. The fact the jury disregarded them doesn't make those objections false, nor does it make you right in presenting only one side of this debate as correct. That, at least, is a basic violation of WP:NPOV.

Ultimately, though, all of the above is generally a content dispute. Again, the basic contention I had here was not that you cite this pathologist, but rather that you're making these implications, in your own words, while ignoring what other people are saying to you in response, and refusing to take into account the idea that some of this rhetoric you're (falsely) presenting as science-based may be offensive to people related to the subject. You do not get to dictate what people who suffer from a specific disease find offensive or not, and it is not "irrelevant" to signal that I find your behavior problematic.

All I asked of you is to treat your fellow editors with basic consideration, as WP:CIV outlines. Instead, you elected to accuse me of raising these objections with the explicit goal of silencing you - something which is an unfounded aspersion, given I originally only stated I found the rhetoric offensive, and nothing more than that. And that aspersion, which you have now repeated multiple times, is the main subject of this report. LaughingManiac (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, the user being offended by the subject of the discussion is completely irrelevant. (If the user finds the topic itself this disturbing, perhaps they should not engage with it).

The user’s personal experience related to the topic is irrelevant.

Demanding that discussion be censored or even silenced (especially discussion citing sources and medical experts) is even further evidence that the user in question is too emotionally charged about the topic to engage in objective, reasonable discussion about it. (Redacted) 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Excuse me, but are you using a logged-out IP to support your original claim? (to reiterate, I have no issues with the forensic pathologist's claims being used in the discussion, even in the article itself, as long as RS report on it; my only contention is presenting misinformation on schizophrenia as truth) LaughingManiac (talk) 20:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

not intentionally. Previous comment is mine, I just wasn’t logged in because I pulled the browser up from email. Jwa05002 (talk) 20:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Having reflected on this again, I acknowledge that my personal experience, and the prejudice I have perceived as associated with it, should not influence the content of Wikipedia (or good-faith discussions about the topic at hand), per the second pillar of the encyclopedia; and I recognize that Jwa05002 did have a point in stating this, regardless of how I might have received their claims; so, even though I still consider the original discourse offensive, and I wish Wikipedia had some stricter policies on this, I am willing to entirely drop this aspect of the complaint, and try my best to avoid bringing it up in topic discussions, as long as there's recognition on their part that my concerns were not expressed in bad faith, and that they shouldn't have assigned ill-intent to me.

If we can agree on this "compromise" in positions of sorts, then I'd be okay with putting an end to this whole thing. LaughingManiac (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Sounds great. Thanks! Jwa05002 (talk) 21:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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Ed120r24!

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I have warned Ed120r24! (talk · contribs) a few times about repeatedly adding unsourced content to BLPs, example of their edits here.

Their response was to call me an "absolute fuckwit". GiantSnowman 19:10, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Hmm "fuckwit" was also unreferenced. I blocked the user for 72 hours. Drmies (talk) 20:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:Jaywill obida adding unsourced info repeatedly.

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User:Jaywill obida has been frequently adding unsourced info to articles related to LGBTQ+ rights in Canada, and seemingly is ignoring the warnings on their talk page as well as suggestions to try to edit a different language wikipedia (as english, doesn't appear to be their first language). Gaismagorm (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocked — handled at WP:AIV — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 19:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! also, am I supposed to report unsourced info adders to AIV? Gaismagorm (talk) 19:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

AIV is for very obvious vandals. If it's not very obvious vandalism (WP:VD) or obvious spam, then this is a better place to file it. It is a judgment call, and a complaint misfiled at AIV may still be handled there, particularly if it is simple to identify the problem. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

My approach is to follow the escalated warnings about adding unsourced content; for the 3rd and Final level warnings, I refer to "disruptive editing". It's not technically vandalism, but it seems to follow the spirit of AIV: admins have to be confident that they can justify their actions if called out, and AIV is a place for obvious, no-brainer decisions, that need a minimum of deliberation. Following a final warning for unsourced edits, in my experience, most admins are comfortable taking action at AIV for that sort of disruption. My two cents. _signed, Willondon (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

To amplify that comment, if a discussion is needed, AIV is not the right place. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 00:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Shadow. 547 - "shut up", "stupid", "ur crying"

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Shadow. 547 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

WP:NOTHERE behaviour;

...yeah the result stuff did get removed because some random guy called Airshipman something like that yeah he didn’t like it and was yapping about Timurid victory should be blah blah blah...

woah woah woah looks like someones having a bad day 😂 also i removed the result timurid victory and ur crying...

dude shut up i dont care i wasnt planning on editing it again because of stupid airshipmanjungle i dont like him and i thought we left this days ago so just shut up This was in response to a warning about their personal attacks, says a lot about this user.

Courtesy ping @AirshipJungleman29: --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

 User blocked for 31h for personal attacks and incivility. In particular, the response to the warning about personal attacks with further personal attacks indicates flagrant disregard for the NPA policy. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 06:17, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Chris! HistoryofIran (talk) 12:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:Bloganathan

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I noticed that User:Bloganathan violates WP:SELFCITE and WP:CITESPAM by exclusively adding his own publications. Even after being notified (User talk:Bloganathan), he continues his practice. What to do? 194.230.147.152 (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Blocked, indefinitely, mostly to help them find their talk page and because they don't edit consistently so a time limited block is unlikely to make a difference Star Mississippi 00:31, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I remember dealing with this editor a while back. Should we just revert the edits in which citations containing their name are added without adding any additional information, like this one? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:58, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Harassment on my user pages

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I ask that Happymappy12342 (talk · contribs) be blocked indefinitely from making any edits to any page in my userspace, including talk page.

• 12:09, 25 September 2024 [175]: defaces my user page for the first time
• 14:58, 25 September 2024 [176] warned not to edit my user page
• 02:10, 26 September 2024 [177] defaces my user page for the second time
• 02:14, 26 September 2024 moves to my talk page (which I told them was the correct way to contact me)
• 16:36, 26 September 2024 [178] warned again about defacing my user page (final warning)
• 20:29, 26 September 2024 [179] blocked from editing Carlisle Public Schools for disruptive editing
• 12:56, 04 November 2024 [180] adds to thread on my talk page (ignored)
• 13:24, 09 December 2024 [181] posts two comments to another thread on my talk page (ignored)
• 21:10, 09 December 2024 [182] posts fourth comment to my talk page
• 21:14, 09 December 2024 [183], [184] on their talk and mine, commanded not to edit any pages in my userspace
• 23:27, 10 December 2024 [185] proceeds to harass my talk page again

I also ask that further restrictions be considered, given other items in their editing history:

• 19:47, 09 October 2024 [186] on Pee Pee Island, replaces name with "Pebble Island"
• 21:16, 02 November 2024 [187] straight up vandalism to article at Ligma joke
• Among a total of 46 edits, I see two [188], [189] that were constructive. A kernel of potential perhaps.

Thanks for considering the situation. _signed, Willondon (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Willondon:, I blocked them a half hour before you posted this.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 00:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Slow edit-warring by TheMaxM1

• TheMaxM1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

It has regretfully come to the point that I need to report this here. This user has been edit-warring on the Castle in the Sky article for the past couple of months. (diff, diff, diff, diff, diff) Despite multiple warnings about their behavior and many opportunities to engage in productive discussion or at least provide a basic explanation, they have mostly declined to do either: they stopped responding at their talk page and the latest (fifth!) revert was made without an edit summary. I still hope this can be resolved with words, but a partial or complete block may be required in this situation. Let me know if there are any questions. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I did provide any explanation because I thought that my edits were legit. I understand that it shouldn't be there if you can't provide a legit source, but I think that there's a lot of info floating about the internet that can be traced to some citation. --TheMaxM1 (talk) 00:59, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

See WP:PROVIT. Having an impression that there’s support for your edit isn’t enough. You must back up your words with evidence if your words are challenged. Otherwise, you need to drop it. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 02:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

TheMaxM1, it goes rather above the point of the sourcing issue now. The main issue here is that even though I've objected to your changes several times, you have continued to revert to your preferred version without responding to my questions or sometimes even acknowledging the warnings I leave you. Again, this can all be fixed if you commit to reverting yourself, fully discussing the changes on the talk page before editing the article further, and implementing the changes only once there is consensus. This is the accepted standard practice (WP:BRD) and it helps us collaborate on the work much more effectively. Are you willing to follow these steps? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Sockpuppet: MonstroIsACoinEater

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User:MonstroIsACoinEater seems to be doing the same thing as User:BlockyDragonHead. / RemoveRedSky ^[talk] 01:25, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Not any more (indef). — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:29, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This sort of report could go to AIV, which usually gets faster results. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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2601:18C:8102:2FC0:0:0:0:0/64 = block evasion of 166.182.0.0/16

• 2601:18C:8102:2FC0:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi, I am reporting the IP user above, for continued disruption of Jim Henson Pictures related topics and block evasion of 166.182.0.0/16.

Let's compare some edits from the 166.182.249.211 address (part of that blocked /16 range) as an example:

• On Jim Henson Pictures: compare diff by 166.182.249.211 to diff by 2601:18C:8102:2FC0:x:x:x:x
• On Planet 51: compare diff by 166.182.249.211 to diff by 2601:18C:8102:2FC0:x:x:x:x

The block evasion is incredibly obvious in my opinion when comparing those two diffs on each page. Passes the WP:DUCK test.

Keep in mind this IP user was already previously reported to WP:AIV a while ago by User:FilmandTVFan28 (diff), but that report has sat there unnoticed for nearly 7 hours now and it looks like it's going to get automatically removed as stale. Yet, since that AIV report this /64 IPv6 range has done yet another wave of disruption, so due to the lack of attention at AIV and the continued disruption I am proceeding this to AN/I here. — AP 499D25 (talk) 12:11, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

User:LödedDiaper reported by User:Fylindfotberserk

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User:LödedDiaper has only been editing for a while but has displayed battleground behaviour, apathy towards BRD, and a certain POV in their edits.

• Largely WP:DUE additions to the lead which seems to support a POV against the current government of India [190] [191]. Similarly, here, addition of "certain epithet" without inline sources mentioning it in context. Note subsequent edit warring (still unsourced) [192] (with vague edit summaries), [193] [194] (removed the sourced part that the new name was given by the President of India who doesn't belong to any political party).
• Demonstrated WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior through edit wars (diffs above), including prolonged ones [195], instead of WP:BRD, and doesn't seem to be interested in the same even after being notified [196]. Also, note WP:UNCIVIL [197] [198] [199].
• Makes substantial changes to articles often removing removing sources [200] [201], for which they were notified [202].
• Editing while logged-out. This IP was used to add the part [203], which was reinstated [204] [205] by the ID. Same with these two diffs [206] and [207].

They either need to take time off Wikipedia or remove themselves from the WP:ARBIPA space. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• I shall provide a comprehensive riposte to the wild, unsubstantiated allegations levelled by @Fylindfotberserk shortly. LödedDiaper (talk) 16:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  Loaded diaper. Cute. EEng 18:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  it's probably a diary of a wimpy kid joke cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 18:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  The user name needs to change, jeez. GiantSnowman 18:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  Definitely classy. 😒 Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  Looks like Fylindfotberserk has pretty thoroughly substantiated things, myself. Ravenswing 19:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, based on name and the edits above, I'm inclined to indef? GiantSnowman 19:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  I have indefinitely blocked the diaper editor for unacceptable behavior that includes a profane trolling username, edit warring, personal attacks and harassment and battleground conduct. Cullen328 (talk) 19:38, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Disruptive IP

67.180.213.51 (talk · contribs) keeps adding unsourced information. See for example their edits on Aimaq people where they continually restore their edits with the same copy-paste edit summary and write: Edit contains new and relevant information, Edit contains sources, Sources are credible and credited in needed areas. This is despite them not including any sources. They have received more than enough warnings by now. Mellk (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Also possibly introducing hoaxes at Tartaria. Mellk (talk) 19:17, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Might have been better for WP:AIV, but an admin could impose a short block on this IP. Conyo14 (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Agressive user Dupexz1256

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Dupexz1256 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User Dupexz1256 was edit warring at Bosnian War article when I interacted with his soapbox and pov edits. He is a 15-year old child enamoured with convicted war criminals. He has left this agressive message at my talk page: Special:Diff/1262497664. I request his account be indef blocked for this behaviour. He is not here to build an encyclopedia but to spread propaganda. YBSOne (talk) 20:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Why hasn't anyone blocked @Dupexz1256 for being disruptive yet? It's a pretty cut-and-dry report. 2600:1700:103A:D800:84B:7F65:10AF:7CEB (talk) 20:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked any further than to click on the diff provided. Anyone saying things like that should be blocked immediately. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and  Done. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 20:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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User:Flusapochterasumesch reported by User:Bowler the Carmine

Flusapochterasumesch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is being disruptive in Talk:Killing of Brian Thompson. They are generally hostile towards other editors ([208] [209] [210] [211] [212] [213] [214]), do not seem to understand the nature of Wikipedia as a tertiary source ([215] [216]) and a collaborative project ([217] [218]), and has expressed their intention to remain willfully ignorant of policies and guidelines ([219] [220] [221]); despite my general note ([222]) and personal warning ([223]) to stop, and several editors' attempts ([224] [225] [226] [227] [228] [229] [230] [231]) to redirect them away from disruptive behavior. Bowler the Carmine | talk 21:58, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Sistani nationality and original name

Hello about (Ali al-Sistani)

I’m writing to raise a concern about user @Montblamc1 repeatedly editing the page about Ali Sistani. I’ve added at least six reliable sources, including Sistani's official site (sistani.org) and CNN, which clearly state that:

• Sistani was born in Mashhad, Iran.
• His native language is Persian.
• He holds Iranian citizenship by birth
• (Even on his Arabic Wikipedia page, he is introduced as an Iranian Shia cleric:

[Source](https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A)

Despite this, @Montblamc1 has reverted the edits multiple times to include unsourced claims, such as labeling Sistanis native name in Arabic and as "Iraqi"," which isn’t supported by his official English site. They haven’t provided any reliable sources for these changes.

I’ve tried to discuss , but my edits keep getting reverted without valid justification. I don’t want to escalate this into an edit war, so I’m asking for your guidance:

• Should I continue editing the page to reflect the reliable sources, or would that worsen the situation?
• Will you intervene to address this issue and ensure the edits follow Wikipedia’s standards for sourcing and neutrality?

Thank you for your time and help! Taha Danesh (talk) 21:39, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Moved from WT:AN. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Disturbing edit summary

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Is any action needed in the light of this edit summary? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:RD3 applied, and a talk page note left advising them to dial 9-8-8. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The IP geolocates to Utrecht? So they may not have much success with that. Thanks anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Continued unsourced changes in biographies of living persons by Wimpyguy

Wimpyguy (talk · contribs) was previously blocked in October 2022 for BLP violations. Since then, they received warnings and messages about unsourced changes in November 2022, March 2023, July 2023, May 2024.

1. Today I noticed they added categories at Alex Kapranos which are not supported by citations in the article body.
2. Going through their previous edits I noticed their previous change, a category addition to Alex Winter, from 29 November, was also not supported by the article body.
3. An earlier edit from 23 November, a category addition at Michael Rapaport appears to be supported by the article body.

I didn't check the accuracy of 1. and 2. But Wimpyguy has been warned enough to know categories need to be supported by inline citations just like any other content. Robby.is.on (talk) 22:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)