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{{Press
*add explanation of [[healing crisis]] in the context of homeopathy, and how this relates to how homeopathy is claimed to work, including both the homeopathic explanation, and the conventional medical critique.
|author = [[David Gorski]]
*add a broad-brush description of the work of [[Constantine Hering]] and [[James Tyler Kent]] and how it differs from Hahnemann, keeping the depth of coverage appropriate for a summary article. Kent is noted for "the well-known [[Homeopathic_repertory|Kent repertory]], on which virtually all modern practise of homeopathy is based"
|title = Ivermectin booster Dr. Tess Lawrie goes all-in for homeopathy for COVID and long COVID
*homeopathic hospitals in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were attended by the rich and powerful as the best locations where one could get better. They were relatively clean and calm institutions that had a better cure rate than many of the mainstream clinics of the day. Of course, this was due to the fact that most mainstream hospitals of the day were filthy places where one was more likely to die of an infection rather than be cured. In this, homeopaths of that era were closer to the ''do no harm'' dictum of the Hipocratic Oath than many of their contemporaries and, indeed, many practices perfected in homeopathic hospitals are still employed today as best practices for [[palliative care]].
|date = March 6, 2023
{{collapsed bottom}}
|org = [[Science-Based Medicine]]

|url = https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-booster-dr-tess-lawrie-goes-all-in-for-homeopathy-for-covid-and-long-covid/
== Birth of Homeopathy ==
|lang =

|quote = Lawrie, as is the case with most quacks, is not happy with Wikipedia. Indeed, she starts out by looking at Wikipedia: "Let’s start with the lies and misinformation about homeopathy. Here's how the internet's propaganda factory Wikipedia currently defines it:"
Homeopathy was not the inception of some german in 1796, it was actually introduced to civilization in Ancient Egypt, and was first used by shamans to treat people with certain common ailments. Ex., Willow tree bark is a substitute for aspirin, and was used by the ancient Egyptians. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.124.56.254|68.124.56.254]] ([[User talk:68.124.56.254|talk]]) 04:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
|archiveurl = <!-- URL of an archived copy of the page, if the original URL becomes unavailable. -->
:But did the ancient Egyptians dilute the willow bark until not a molecule was left in the 'remedy'? I doubt it, since willow bark works! Perhaps you a referring to e.g. herbal or natural medicine. To be more accurate, willow bark is not a 'substitute' for aspirin; the drug derives from willow bark and is considered to be its "active ingredient".--[[User:TraceyR|TraceyR]] ([[User talk:TraceyR|talk]]) 06:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink -->
::The crucial thing is the idea of "like cures like" rather than the dilutions. Although homoeopaths often claim that their therapy goes back several millennia, there does not seem to be any good evidence for this. The claim that it originated with Hippocrates (particularly ironic in view of Hahnemann's denigration of Hippocratic medicine as "allopathy"), for example, seems to have been a misunderstanding of Hippocrates's writings (he actually seems to have written that treatments need to be of a similar '''category''' to the injury - for example wounds treated with surgery, internal illness treated with drugs). There seems to be no good evidence that Hahnemann based his idea on earlier writers. We've discussed this here before - see the archives. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 13:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
|accessdate = March 13, 2023

== Is this page worth linking to in external links ==
| author2 = Syeda ShahBano Ijaz

| title2 = How Conflicts and Population Loss Led to the Rise of English Wikipedia’s Credibility
[http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2010/06/homeopathy.html]
| org2 = [[American Political Science Association]]
It is a blog and probably not an authoritative source but provides a lucid explanation that suits the masses <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.167.52.187|122.167.52.187]] ([[User talk:122.167.52.187|talk]]) 06:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
| url2 = https://politicalsciencenow.com/how-conflicts-and-population-loss-led-to-the-rise-of-english-wikipedias-credibility/

| date2 = 29 May 2023
== Biased tone ==
| quote2 = Take the example of the Wikipedia page on homeopathy: from 2001-2006, the lead on the page described homeopathy as a “controversial system of alternative medicine.” From 2006-2013, the content changed to mentioning that homeopathy has been “regarded as pseudoscience” and sharing that there is a “lack of convincing scientific evidence confirming its efficacy.” By 2015, this description had stabilized to “homeopathy is a pseudoscience.”

| archiveurl2 =
While the very nature of this quackery is doomed to bias by anyone subconsciously rational, I'm removing the quote from remedies, rendered in the article as 'remedies,' as it places an emphasis on the word that can only lead to the reader believing as I do, albeit in a manner unbefitting Wikipedia. [[Special:Contributions/98.87.71.186|98.87.71.186]] ([[User talk:98.87.71.186|talk]]) 04:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
| archivedate2 =

| accessdate2 = 30 May 2023
== Maybe I found some evidence for the effectiveness of homeopathy? ==
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Dear Wikians,
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I looked at the webpage of British Homeopathic Association (http://www.britishhomeopathic.org)
|counter = 65
and found the following information sources which claim to show
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that there is positive scientific evidence for the success of homeopathy.
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You can read one document here:
|archive = Talk:Homeopathy/Archive %(counter)d
http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/export/sites/bha_site/research/evidencesummary.pdf
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{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
And more from here:
|target=Talk:Homeopathy/Archive index |mask=Talk:Homeopathy/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=no
http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/media_centre/facts_about_homeopathy/the_evidence_base.html
}}

__TOC__
Would you please inquire if that evidence is reliable
and in case it is, would you include it in the article?

Best wishes,
Andres <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Simplejoy|Simplejoy]] ([[User talk:Simplejoy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Simplejoy|contribs]]) 06:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:We've been through this before pretty much ''ad nauseam'', most recently when the same material was referenced by users such as "Dr.Vittal" or "NootherIDAvailable". The list is cherry-picked and fails to take trial quality into account. It also does not accurately reflect the results of the comprehensive systematic reviews, since of the four that it claims were "broadly positive", in three the conclusions were so highly qualified by comments about the poor quality of the evidence that they cannot really be considered unequivocally positive, and the fourth actually effectively retracted the positive conclusion of one of the other three, stating that it was likely that it "at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments." Additionally, it is the result of unpublished research, and produced by an organisation that, according to its own website, exists to promote homoeopathy. The article uses sources that are published and peer-reviewed. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 13:28, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

== "treat" vs "claims to treat" ==

The word 'treat' just means to give something to somebody if certain conditions are met. So far as dealing with the illness, the treatment may be completely useless (as with homeopathy), but they're still being treated.

For example, in olden days, people were treated for all manner of indications with leeches. They didn't do a damn thing in many cases, but that was the treatment nevertheless.

The only way 'claims to treat' would be correct, is if there was some doubt that people take homeopathic treatments at all.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 01:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
*Claims to treat is the correct and neutral form. Also, as most preparations contain no solute, I'd say there is some doubt as to whether people are taking homeopathic treatments at all. Leeches are still used in medicine and did have an effect, though perhaps not the one intended. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 07:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
::There's a lot of back-and-forth on this. Can't we try to work towards a compromise, or at least a ceasefire?
::Personally, I'd be happy with either version. No doubt there are other parts on this article that could benefit from the attention ;-)
::[[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 09:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Is there any Wikipedia policy on how to treat unsubstantiated claims (if there isn't there probably should be)? The only body whose policy I'm familiar with on this is the (UK) Advertising Standards Authority, who interpret any claim to treat a condition as a claim of ''effective'' treatment. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 09:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::: Indeed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 09:49, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:I can see both sides of the argument; while "treat" technically also includes ineffective (and even harm inducing) treatments, colloquially I think the use of the term has an implication of effectiveness. The easiest way to solve this is to find a good RS that uses the wording one way or another and to cite it. [[User:Yobol|Yobol]] ([[User talk:Yobol|talk]]) 12:29, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
::The ASA gives a pretty good standard, which more than clinches it for me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 12:51, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

::: Current opening sentence: <blockquote>Homeopathy (also spelled homoeopathy or homœopathy) is a form of alternative medicine, first proposed by German physician Samuel Hahnemann in 1796, that claims to treat patients with astronomically diluted preparations.</blockquote> Could we solve this by replacing ''claims to treat'' (or ''treat'' if the lead changes again ... [[WP:EW|which ideally it should not for a while]]) with ''uses''? - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]])</small> 13:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:::We're not advertising anything, and we use the Wikipedia's policies in the Wikipedia, not the ASAs here. 'Claims to treat' is ''incorrect'' because they self-evidently do get treated, that's what 'treat' means. Either change it to something else entirely or leave it as 'treat'.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 14:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
::::What do Wikipedia's policies say about treatment of unsubstantiated claims? [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 15:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:::::The unsubstantiated claim that is being repeatedly edit warred into the article is that people only ''claim'' to take homeopathic stuff, but don't really. That's what this sentence means.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 19:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::: No, the claim is that it is an effective remedy. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 19:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Which bit of "that claims to treat patients with astronomically diluted preparations." is the word 'effective' or 'remedy'? Hint: none. A remedy is something that actually remedies something. A treatment is something you use under a prescribed set of conditions. See the difference?- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 23:14, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::::For example, torture is a certain sort of treatment of prisoners in an attempt to extract information. Does that make it a remedy? No.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 23:14, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Basically, you keep using the word 'treat' but you don't seem to have a clue what it means.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 23:14, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
*In my book treating a person stands for applying a therapy with the intended goal of curing a medical condition. In the absence of a cure one attempts to alleviate the symptoms. Ergo, since homeopathy has been proven to be indistinguisable from [[placebo]] any homeopathic treatment is no more than a "claim."--- '''[[User:Nescio|<font color="green">Nomen Nescio</font>]]''' <sup>''[[User talkNescio|<font color="blue">Gnothi seauton</font>]]''</sup><sub>''[[Special:Contributions/Nescio|<font color="teal">contributions</font>]]''</sub> 00:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
::Yup, so what you're saying is, they try to cure something by giving them something. And that's what they do. You'll note that there's no implication that it has to actually be actually successful, either always or ever, just that it's applied with that ''intention''. So unless you think that homeopaths are always fraudulent, then the 'claim' bit is ''wrong''.<small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 01:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Nope. Trying implies you are doing something you expect has an effect on the desired outcome. Since homeopathy has been proven to have no effect, [http://contusio-cordis.blogspot.com/2010/04/homeopathy-has-not-worked-in-175-years.html other than placebo], one cannot reasonably argue "they try to cure something." How can you cure anything when you are doing [[placebo|nothing]]? In short, doing something you know is ineffective by definition means you '''claim''' you are treating a patient. Or, so we are absolutely clear as to what this is about: a claim is an unproven assertion, ergo homeopathy '''claims''' to be a form of treatment for many diseases. Regarding "there's no implication that it has to actually be actually successful" I disagree. Giving lemon juice to cure cancer is silly. We know it does not work. So it is not a treatment for cancer. At best we can say people '''claim''' it cures cancer. To be called a treatment it must be [[scientific proof|proven to be effective]], although not necessarily a 100%.--- '''[[User:Nescio|<font color="green">Nomen Nescio</font>]]''' <sup>''[[User talkNescio|<font color="blue">Gnothi seauton</font>]]''</sup><sub>''[[Special:Contributions/Nescio|<font color="teal">contributions</font>]]''</sub> 10:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
::::Where is it written that a treatment has to be proven scientifically? It isn't. That's not the definition of treat. The definition of treat is something used with the ''intended goal'' of improving something.
::::However, many homeopaths and patients really are dumb enough to not believe the scientific evidence, and hence really do ''expect'' that homeopathy will have an effect on the desired outcome. It doesn't matter that it doesn't work. It didn't matter that leeches didn't work, applying them, or homeopathy in a particular way was/is still a treatment.
:::::(as an aside: [[Leech#Hirudotherapy|Leeches can 'work']] - perhaps it's their use in bloodletting that you refer to.)--[[User:TraceyR|TraceyR]] ([[User talk:TraceyR|talk]]) 18:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
::::::Actually it doesn't matter. Leeches are still a treatment however they're used. That's the point isn't it?- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 00:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
::::English just isn't used the way it is in the article, you're using the wrong words for what you're trying to say.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 12:28, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

You can't leave this as 'claims to treat' it's a deliberate slur on homeopaths, it's saying that they deliberately give homeopathic treatments, knowing they don't work, that they're only claiming that they do. That may be true in some cases, but in general they really do believe it.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 16:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
:No, it's not a deliberate slur; it says that homeopaths ''claim to treat''. They really do claim[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/claim] to treat[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/treat]. Although we are working on the basis that the treatment is ineffective, "claim" applies equally well regardless of whether the claimant is ignorant, lying, delusional, confused, or something else.
:I am not aware of any reasonable definition of the work "claim" which requires the claimant to knowingly say something untrue; if you have a good source that defines "claim" this way, please share it with us.
:Where does the article say that homeopaths deliberately give treatments knowing that they don't work?
:[[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 16:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

::* It's mainly bad writing. A homeopathic remedy is a treatment. The claim is that this will cure the ailment. The treatment is a simple fact. It is the likelihood of the <u>cure</u> which is doubted. The current language muddles up these issues and by phrasing it in a strange way, gives the opening a tendentious tone. [[User:Colonel Warden|Colonel Warden]] ([[User talk:Colonel Warden|talk]]) 17:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

::So you ''claim'' that using the word 'claim' when referring to something that somebody else says doesn't cast doubt, or imply the existence of doubt, on the veracity of what is said? Uh huh.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 00:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

* Our opening lead seems poorly constructed. Compare, for example, with the ''Encyclopedia Britannica'' which has:

"...a system of therapeutics, notably popular in the 19th century, which was founded on the stated principle that “like cures like,” ''similia similibus curantur'', and which prescribed for patients drugs or other treatments that would produce in healthy persons symptoms of the diseases being treated."

The word "prescribed" seems good in accurately describing what is done - the physician recommends a particular treatment according to his diagnosis and doctrine. The word "treatment" is used here without any special implication of success. Is it not well understood that, for all forms of medicine, treatments are no guarantee of a cure?

Also the phrase "astronomically diluted" seems quite misleading as it suggests that the matter has something to do with the stars or planets. The essential idea of homeopathy - the theory that like cures like - is not mentioned at all. The Britannica version is far superior.

[[User:Colonel Warden|Colonel Warden]] ([[User talk:Colonel Warden|talk]]) 16:29, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
:Treatments are generally understood imply a probability of success, see the ASA reference. While I generally disagree with your reasoning, I agree that "astronomically" is not a good word for the lead. See below. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 20:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
::I agree about "astronomically" (see below), but virtually every description of homoeopathy, even those from homoeopathic organisations, says that it uses highly diluted preparations. It is not true, by the way, that "the essential idea of homeopathy - the theory that like cures like - is not mentioned at all" - the second sentence of the lead says "Based on an ipse dixit axiom formulated by Hahnemann which he called the ''law of similars'', preparations which cause certain symptoms in healthy individuals are given as the treatment for patients exhibiting similar symptoms." This mirrors, for example, the Society of Homeopaths' [http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/about-homeopathy/what-is-homeopathy/ description] of homoeopathy, which describes the medicines as "highly diluted" in its first sentence, and doesn't mention "like cures like" until the second paragraph. Having it this way round would not appear to be massively controversial. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 20:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

::Well, you know what they say, assumptions make an ass out of you, Verbal, and treatments do ''not'' imply a probability of success only an intent to have some kind of effect. The fact that you are incapable of understanding the distinction probably partly contributes to you repeatedly reverting to a version that is either nonsense or a deliberate bad faith attack on homeopaths; hey they are quacks, but they're not necessarily fraudulent quacks- they don't ''knowingly'' prescribe treatments that don't work.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 00:53, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
::: I haven't made an assumptions, or used the word. What I did was give an opinion backed by references without personal attacks against other editors or homeopaths, despite what you have attributed to me. I suggest you take a break. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 07:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
:"Claims to treat" is an ambiguous wording. It could be interpreted as referring to a practice that does not actually occur, while its practitioners claim that it does. Moreover, this wording along with the use of "so-called" in the third sentence of the lede are examples of weasel wording (see [[WP:ALLEGED]]). [[User:Gobonobo|<font face="Verdana" color="333300">Gobonobo</font>]] [[User_talk:Gobonobo|<sup>T</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Gobonobo|<sup>C</sup>]] 06:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
::How about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#cite_note-Baby_Gloria-141 "fails to treat"]? Actually, I think the "practitioners use" option currently in place is better. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 07:46, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

===On insanity===
Why is this insanity periodically coming up? What's wrong with the following sentence?
:''The famous doctor always treats his patients with contempt.''
Does it really have to be "corrected" to the following?
:''The famous doctor always claims [or attempts] to treat his patients with contempt.''
The word "treat" ''does'' have connotations of efficacy, but they are rather weak, and certainly much weaker than the implication that people ''actually do'' something. Any formulation implying that someone doesn't actually "treat" a patient but only "claims" or "tries" to do so is a very clear statement about their actual actions, not about the potential efficacy of these actions. The following is absolutely ludicrous:
:'''''Homeopathy''' (also spelled '''homoeopathy''' or '''homœopathy''') is a form of [[alternative medicine]], first proposed by German physician [[Samuel Hahnemann]] in 1796, that claims to treat patients with highly diluted preparations.'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Homeopathy&oldid=372276412]
The plain meaning of this sentence is that homeopaths try to give highly diluted preparations to patients but for some reason fail. It doesn't get clear though whether the problem is that the preparations aren't actually diluted, whether they try to send them to their patients by mail and they never arrive, or whether the patients, possibly after reading the Skeptical Inquirer or discussing with pseudo-skeptics on Wikipedia, decide no improvement at all is actually better than an improvement due to the placebo effect (which may well be better for homeopathy than "proper" medicine for susceptible persons), and so throw them away. [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 11:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
:Do you have a problem with the current wording which removes the bone of contention? <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 12:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
::I don't know where the current wording comes from, it's very clumsy and needs fixing. But I still don't have time for such things, and it's way too hot anyway. [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 23:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Hans, while the wording does start to get a little cumbersome, the argument you have set up here is a bit of a straw man. The word "treat" has several meanings, among them ( from my dictionary) 1. behave towards or deal with in a certain way; and 2. give medical care or attention to. In your "claims to treat his patients with contempt" example, it depends on which definition of "treats" we are referencing. If the doctor claims that he "behaves towards or deals with in a certain way", the sentence comes across as saying that this doctor, for some odd reason, is known to brag about how poorly he treats his patients. If the doctor claims that he "gives medical care" in the form of contempt, then the word "claims" is certainly of use; otherwise the reader is being told that this odd method of dealing with patients is a form of medical care. Simply because he is a doctor, everything he does in the presence of a patient does not necessarily constitute medical care. He breaths, he farts, he ties his shoes, and he may even show contempt; but If he claimed to be medically treating you by any of these actions, you'd say he was an ass.

In the article, the word "treat" is most certainly being employed in the sense of "giving medical care", which implies that homeopathy is actually a form of medical care. According to the best evidence available, there is no reason to believe that homeopathy is any more useful than contempt as a form of medical care. The rest of the article makes it pretty clear that there is no reason to believe that homeopathy can be considered as a form of medical care, so why would we suggest it here? I, for one, think the qualification of the word "treat" is justified[[User:Puddin&#39;head Wilson|Puddin&#39;head Wilson]] ([[User talk:Puddin&#39;head Wilson|talk]]) 14:19, 11 July 2010 (UTC).

:Were you under the impression that you were responding to my core argument? If so, you failed. I suggest a Google search for "placebo-treated" if you want to know what I mean. Even when "treat" is used in the medical sense, efficacy is not a ''necessary'' feature of a treatment (although there is of course a presumption of efficacy to some extent), and efficacy beyond placebo is ''definitely'' not a necessary feature. It's the same with most words in a natural language.
:E.g. there is a presumption that a "city" is big in some sense (bigger than a town or village), and there is a presumption that an English "city" has a certain status granted by the king/queen. Both appear in dictionaries as if they were necessary features, but neither is really necessary. Whether we can call an English village with city status, or a large English settlement with no legal status at all, a "city", depends on context.
:Here it's basically the same situation, a matter of context. The context in question is not "Is it possible/ethical to treat certain conditions with homeopathy?" Instead, the context is "Homeopaths treat patients with certain obviously ineffictive stuff." [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 23:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

:: You lost me. But then again, I'm quite dim. How about:

::Homeopathy (also spelled homoeopathy or homœopathy) is a form of alternative medicine first proposed by German physician Samuel Hahnemann in 1796. Practitioners of homeopathy administer highly dilute preparations of substances which, when undiluted, are known to cause the symptoms of a patient's disease. The rationale for this approach was articulated by Hahnemann as the law of similars, an ipse dixit axiom which states "similia similibus curentur" or simply "like cures like".

::Sound any better?[[User:Puddin&#39;head Wilson|Puddin&#39;head Wilson]] ([[User talk:Puddin&#39;head Wilson|talk]]) 02:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

== Harmlessness of homeopathic globuli? ==

Should the introduction mention that, while homeopathic pills are in themselves harmless, the fact that they sometimes replace other medications can make the treatment harmful? --[[User:TraceyR|TraceyR]] ([[User talk:TraceyR|talk]]) 11:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:I think that's a good idea - maybe add a few words to the end of the sentence that begins "''Homeopathic remedies are, with rare exceptions, considered safe...''"?
:However, (imho) the lede is already a bit too long; maybe some other details could be moved back down into the body of the article.
:[[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 11:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
::I would say leave it as it is. This (along with other concerns) is covered in the "Ethical and safety issues" section of the article. In an article this length the lead can't include details of every point raised in the article - it can only summarise the main points. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 13:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
::: Reasonable idea, TraceyR, but I think the lead is already longer than ideal. The major points from each section seem to be covered in broad outline, satisfying [[WP:LEAD]]. There might be something we could cut from the lead to make room, but nothing jumps out at me right now. - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]])</small> 13:38, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

== luc montagnier's claim of radio waves ==

I added his claim to [[Water_memory#Subsequent_research]], since it's more on-topic there. People claiming that it was a breakthrought discovery should read [[http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/10/why-i-am-nominating-luc-montagnier-for.html this] to see some of the reasons of why the scientific community has not taken the claim seriously. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 08:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
:In particular, it doesn't belong here because once again Montagnier didn't actually mention homoeopathy. The Sunday Times of the day before the story cited has a slightly fuller account, which says that Montagnier "did not mention homeopathy by name in his presentation." (Leake, J. Nobel laureate gives hope to homeopaths, Sunday Times 4.7.2010, p. 10) [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 19:45, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

== "Astronomically" in the lead ==

The word "astronomically" in the lead doesn't come across as very encyclopaedic to me. I'd like to discuss possible alternatives, one such is "implausible" (supported by the lack of a scientific basis). Astronomically also pertains to big, but what we're talking about here is beyond miniscule - in nearly all cases it is 0. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 20:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
:I agree that it doesn't read as encyclopaedic. "Astronomically" is a fairly recent addition (21st June). It used to say "heavily", and I've reverted it to that at least once - I hadn't noticed "astronomically" had been returned. I think "highly" is probably better, and certainly uncontroversial (for example the (UK) Society of Homeopaths (the larges body for lay homeopaths in the UK) [http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/about-homeopathy/what-is-homeopathy/ defines] homoeopathy as being "based on treating the individual with highly diluted substances", and the Faculty of Homeopathy (the organisation for medically-qualified homeopaths in the UK) [http://www.facultyofhomeopathy.org/about_us/about_homeopathy.html describes] the dilutions used as "ultra-high". We have a third editor objecting to "astronomically" above, so I'll change it. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 20:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
::Highly is ok with me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 21:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Agree that "astronomically" is not encyclopedic and would support a change to "highly".[[User:Yobol|Yobol]] ([[User talk:Yobol|talk]]) 23:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
::::I think you'll find that we don't include words based on how they sound, but on references. 'Astronomically' is literally ''and'' figuratively true, and furthermore after whole seconds with google, I can reference it to the British medical journal. See [http://www.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/325/7376/1367]- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 23:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

::::Normally used the word 'astronomical' is pure hyperbole. In the sense that the word 'astronomical' is used here it refers to things that are related to or comparable to sizes found in astronomy. Some of the dilutions found in homeopathy are the same as one droplet dissolved in a sphere of water that is about the same as the orbital radius of the Earth from the Sun. We literally are talking about astronomical dilutions.- <small>[[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|''Wolfkeeper'']]</small> 00:11, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:::::This is a ''figurative'' use of the word. The source cited above talks about substances being "diluted to astronomical levels", which is slightly different. I suppose "astronomical" is the sort of word "[[The Sun (newspaper)|The Sun]]" (how appropriate!) would also use,, although the above comment is on the BMJ website; I'd be happier with a different word too. --[[User:TraceyR|TraceyR]] ([[User talk:TraceyR|talk]]) 06:14, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
::::::It also states that homeopathy "really is impossible", but I doubt that a TV review is an appropriate source for that statement. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 07:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:''It used to say "heavily", and I've reverted it to that at least once - I hadn't noticed "astronomically" had been returned.'' Ugh. This is the kind of thing that has caused me to lose some enthusiasm for Wikipedia. I'm not talking about the content, so much: I haven't read the sentence yet. Simply how changes can be fixed-remade-fixed-... As far as I can tell, there's really no solution in the Wikipedia system for this? [[User:Dogweather|Dogweather]] ([[User talk:Dogweather|talk]]) 02:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
::Beyond the three revert rule and the possibility of sanctions being taken against editors who persistently make edits against consensus, not much. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 10:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the reply. And what about the lack of decent forum software? So that, e.g., one can get notified of replies. Is there a reason why a wiki page is the tool of choice for all communications? I'm actually very interested in these issues --- I've even started writing software for wikipedia editors to better communicate, but the solutions to some problems seem so obvious. [[User:Dogweather|Dogweather]] ([[User talk:Dogweather|talk]]) 05:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

==Dana Ullman and Amy Lansky on the bias of this article==

"The moral of this tale: a single individual or a small set of individuals, if they have dedication and plenty of time to burn, can overtake a Wikipedia page with misinformation. Unless the “other side” is willing to devote a full time effort to combat this, there is very little that can be done. Any change they make will be undone the next day. Of course, in general, most credible sources of information have lives and careers and cannot devote all of their time in a never-ending Wikipedia war. This is what has happened to the Wikipedia page on homeopathy. "http://www.homeopathic.org/content/quackbuster-operations-target-homeopathy-article-on-wikipedia-0


== Mathematically impossible statement ==
As many people know that on many search terms, Wikipedia comes up number 1 in Google. They are almost definitely in the top 10. So when the search term is Homeopathy, how accurate are they?
I was looking at following wikipedia page on Homeopathy. The general definitions and information on Homeopathy seem to be for the most part correct. The part where all of the information that is incorrect seems to be in the research side of Homeopathy.
...http://blog.hmedicine.com/homeopathy-and-homeopathic-medicine-blog/bid/4844/Homeopathy-Misinformation-on-Wikipedia......


The article contains this statement:
Should these opinions be included in the article? It seems reasonable to me. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cheers1|Cheers1]] ([[User talk:Cheers1|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cheers1|contribs]]) 11:59, 12 July 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
"A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance."
:We don't do self-referential naval gazing. [[Dana Ullman]] isn't a prominent homeopath (he doesn't practice, I think) and isn't an expert - he is a "leading proselytizer of homeopathy". Also, he has been banned from contributing to homeopathy on wikipedia due to his excessively self-promotional and pro-homeopathy editing. Homeopathic.org is also not a reliable source. There may be some meat here for his own article, but I doubt it. Lansky's opinion also seems at odds with the RS which our article is based on, and is not published in a RS. Lansky is free to bring their concerns here for discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 12:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. [[User:Andrewbrink|Andrewbrink]] ([[User talk:Andrewbrink|talk]]) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::This has been repeatedly discussed, with the consenus being that the template is not needed. [[User:Brunton|Brunton]] ([[User talk:Brunton|talk]]) 12:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
:It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think.<span id="Usedtobecool:1722222132127:TalkFTTCLNHomeopathy" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)</span>
::No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. [[User:Andrewbrink|Andrewbrink]] ([[User talk:Andrewbrink|talk]]) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::The ''maths'' itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::If this is all [[WP:OR]], it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the [[Conservation of mass|law of conservation of mass]]— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is ''also'' incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::It cites a source. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Homeopathy&diff=1237616920&oldid=1237423906]. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024 ==
:::Anyone can ''take over'' a Wikipedia article, as long as they can produce [[WP:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] to substantiate what they write. 'Prominent homeopaths' will also need to supply reliable sources supporting their claims, just like anyone else. "Ipse dixit" is not proof, even from Hahnemann. If they can provide reliable sources for the effectiveness of potentization, 'remedies' etc, they can 'take over' this article (and be applauded for doing so). If they can find genuine 'misinformation' in the article, they should identify it here on the talk page and provide the proof that it is wrong. That's how Wikipedia works. --[[User:TraceyR|TraceyR]] ([[User talk:TraceyR|talk]]) 12:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Collapse AI blather}}
::::With so many peer reviewed sources to draw upon, there's no reason to cite the webpage of a non-notable homeopath. The page should be based on reliable sources and that ain't it. [[User:WLU|WLU]] <small>[[User talk:WLU|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/WLU|(c)]] Wikipedia's rules:</small>[[WP:SIMPLE|<sup><span style='color:#FFA500'>simple</span></sup>]]/[[WP:POL|<sub><span style='color:#008080'>complex</span></sub>]] 04:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected|Homeopathy|answered=yes}}
This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Wikipedia's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Wikipedia, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Wikipedia should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Wikipedia lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.
{{collapse bottom}}
[[Special:Contributions/118.148.126.228|118.148.126.228]] ([[User talk:118.148.126.228|talk]]) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
:{{notdone}} Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 11:54, 16 November 2024

Good articleHomeopathy has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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September 14, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
September 27, 2007Good article nomineeListed
October 8, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
October 13, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
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November 2, 2012Good article reassessmentDelisted
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Current status: Good article

Mathematically impossible statement

[edit]

The article contains this statement: "A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance." This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. Andrewbrink (talk) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. Andrewbrink (talk) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The maths itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. Black Kite (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If this is all WP:OR, it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the law of conservation of mass— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is also incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. Dronebogus (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It cites a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? Dronebogus (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: [1]. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024

[edit]
Collapse AI blather

This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Wikipedia's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Wikipedia, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Wikipedia should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Wikipedia lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.

118.148.126.228 (talk) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. Bon courage (talk) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]