Talk:High Speed 2: Difference between revisions
Content deleted Content added
→Intro: Reply |
|||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{Talk page header}} |
|||
{{TrainsWikiProject|class=C|importance=High}} |
|||
{{oldpeerreview|archive=1}} |
|||
==Time for a page of its own== |
|||
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B| |
|||
I did this because it feel its about time the High speed 2 deserves its own page as it was taking up quite a lot of room on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_the_United_Kingdom#High_Speed_1_.28HS1.29 article. Construction is soon to happen and we already have enough content to fill out a page, obviously I would be grateful if people contributed to making this page quite filled out, formal and educational. (unsigned comment by [[User:Jayflux]] 9 September 2009). |
|||
{{WikiProject Trains|importance=High|UK=yes|UK-importance=top}} |
|||
:Subject to all the proceeding consultative, legislative engineering and contractual matters etc etc construction is not anticipated before 2018 so what content are you talking about?[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 23:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
{{WikiProject United Kingdom |importance=Mid}} |
|||
::This is an old comment from 9th Sept 09 when this article was first created.[[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 23:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|user=Dhtwiki|date=4–18 December 2022}} |
|||
}} |
|||
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|||
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|||
|maxarchivesize = 150K |
|||
|counter = 6 |
|||
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|||
|algo = old(90d) |
|||
|archive = Talk:High Speed 2/Archive %(counter)d |
|||
}} |
|||
== Network of services + the mayors' scheme == |
|||
== Another Option == |
|||
In terms of journey times, a High Speed line from Birmingham to London covering approximately 100 miles would only reduce journey times by 15 minutes, however a High Speed line from Manchester to Birmingham covering 75 miles would reduce journey times to London by approximately an hour. A high speed line between Manchester and Birmingham utilising existing track connecting Birmingham to London on the West Coast Main Line / Trent Valley would provide a quicker service to London for more people, including the populations of Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds. This would therefore be a more feasible priority. However, in order to operate at high speeds, the appropriate rolling stock needs to be utilised. The Eurostar is the quickest option, and is unable to operate on existing track between Birmingham and London. One option could be to build additional track roughly parallel to the existing West Coast Mail Line / Trent Valley, or utilise the track currently used by Pendolino's in the Trent Valley specifically for High Speed trains including Eurostar. --[[User:Minotaur500|Minotaur500]] ([[User talk:Minotaur500|talk]]) 13:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC) |
|||
:To be clear, this article is documenting the government's plans and any related notable comments, responses rather than our own point of view on what would be appropriate.[[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 23:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Can we drop the 'network' aspect of HS2 from the lead and elsewhere? It seems to have been [https://www.hs2.org.uk/what-is-hs2/ abandoned by the HS2 website], at least. [[User:A.D.Hope|A.D.Hope]] ([[User talk:A.D.Hope|talk]]) 17:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== Scope of article - scheme promoted by HS2 Ltd only? == |
|||
I have done quite a lot of work on the article today and am considering what the scope for the article should be. I propose that it should be specific to the proposal being promoted by High Speed Two (HS2) Ltd. Other proposals (such as Network Rail's one) should be mentioned briefly but should not be covered in detail here - detailed content should either be developed within the [[High-speed rail in the United Kingdom]] article or in a separate article. Any thoughts? [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 12:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
:<s>I would see no problem with this, the name of the exact passenger services etc is unknown until they actually enter operation. I would however, as set out above, wish to retain the ongoing review in the lead as summary but then its full content further in the body as present. It remains relevant. The report yet to come by the Mayors in Summer 2024 should shine further light on the true extent but the provisional report basically says Phase 2 will be paid for by private investment from Handsacre to Manchester Airport to then join NPR which will then be paid for by public investment. [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 18:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC)</s> {{Sock vote}} |
|||
:Great work on the article although I still think we should split the 'proposed route' section up a bit like before. Its a big section, let me know what you think[[User:Jayflux|Jayflux]] ([[User talk:Jayflux|talk]]) 17:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
::I've removed the references to the network from the lead; they can be reinstated if other editors disagree. |
|||
::I don't think an ongoing review or provisional report are significant enough to mention in the lead. If they lead to concrete plans to complete parts of phase 2 then that can be included in the lead, but as it stands we'd be giving undue significance to plans which may not come to fruition. [[User:A.D.Hope|A.D.Hope]] ([[User talk:A.D.Hope|talk]]) 19:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::<s>They have come to fruition because the Mayors have reported on this and have outlined the plans. They have even provided a map, which arguably should be included into the article for HS2. This is notwithstanding that they have stated they intend to give the exact details in the Summer. The review should therefore be reinstated. [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 22:18, 13 April 2024 (UTC)</s> {{Sock vote}} |
|||
::::I don't think a map and good intentions are enough to make the plans firm enough to include in the lead, sorry. [[User:A.D.Hope|A.D.Hope]] ([[User talk:A.D.Hope|talk]]) 22:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::::Support removing services, as mentioned above, I doubted where it came from. |
|||
:::::Concerning private developments, that would depend if it is described as part of HS2, should it be developed. If it isn't, then it shouldn't be here (aside a minor link to another article) even if it covered the same route. '''[[User:DankJae|<span style="color: black">Dank</span>]][[User talk:DankJae|<span style="color: red">Jae</span>]]''' 08:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
::::::Andy Burnham, addressing the board of Transport for the North, insisted that this proposal is not an attempt to revive HS2, saying "This is the son or daughter of HS2. It's not the same thing."<ref>{{cite web |
|||
| url = https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/new-cheaper-train-line-best-28854094 |
|||
| title = New cheaper train line is best alternative to HS2, Andy Burnham's review concludes |
|||
| last = Timan |
|||
| first = Joseph |
|||
| date = 20 March 2024 |
|||
| publisher = Manchester Evening News |
|||
| access-date = 17 April 2024 |
|||
}}</ref>--[[User:TedColes|TedColes]] ([[User talk:TedColes|talk]]) 11:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::<s>This has already all been discussed above. In any event, the Act for Phase 2a refers to such as HS2 and so does the Phase 2b Bill. This would not change. Andy Street also told the media that it is essentially the same route and how therefore could someone logically try to describe it as not HS2? HS2 is the route and it remains relevant. It is highly unlikely that the private investment would simply drop out of the consortium. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that, as Andy Burnham also told media, this part of the HS2 route would be privately financed. It really is as simple as that. [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</s> {{Sock vote}} |
|||
:::::::<s>@[[User:JMF|JMF]] @[[User:Wire723|Wire723]] you both have contributed above. Are you able to also join the conversation here? [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 12:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</s> |
|||
::::::::[[WP: CRYSTAL]] applies. As of today, it is still a wish list. When contracts have been placed, we can say what is confidently expected to happen. Not before. [[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 16:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::::<s>Also, it should be noted the government have still be buying land and buildings etc along the Phase 2 route (i.e. the part which the Mayors are going to be paying for privately) notwithstanding that route has been cancelled by the government. [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</s> {{Sock vote}} |
|||
::::::::::It seems unlikely that the two Andys' scheme would be able to build track to the same standard that is needed for high speed running.--[[User:TedColes|TedColes]] ([[User talk:TedColes|talk]]) 17:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::::::<s>I mean that would be stupid to believe because HS2 trains are unable to drive on conventional track which means it must be high speed rail to Manchester. [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 19:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</s> {{Sock vote}} |
|||
::::::::::::They can but they can't go as fast as Pendolinos, they are too long for the platforms and they won't fit into Manchester station as is. But apart from that, there's:s no problem. Well, other than the lack of budget or any means to raise it, obviously. |
|||
::::::::::::But when the mist clears in the crystal ball, all that will be solved. Right now though, we must stick to what is real. Ambitions can and should certainly be described but we cannot imply that they have any more status than that. [[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 20:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::::::::<s>Says TGV finance model will be adopted... We will see what materialises but it has been made clear it would not be possible to run HS2 trains all the way to Manchester on the WCML mainly for safety reasons. and the government would not let them slow down the already most congested railway in the UK. There surely must be more to come. [[User:UnicornSherbert|UnicornSherbert]] ([[User talk:UnicornSherbert|talk]]) 20:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</s> {{Sock vote}} |
|||
This discussion is beginning to drift into speculation and [[WP:NOTFORUM]] territory, so best we draw a line under it at this stage. We can report as fact that "very high speed" track is funded, contracted and under construction between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon St. Everything else is unfunded aspiration and may only be reported as such unless and until that status changes. --[[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 22:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
::Thanks. I am not sure what you mean by 'like before' though, I have separated out the discussion about the route from the history of the project and other aspects to avoid a big mush of content. I have been wondering about how to improve the proposed route section which is indeed a bit long but don't have any great ideas. Possibly you would like to have a go? Do lets limit the history section to a brief chronology of the progress of the project itself rather than as a place for a lot of detail about route options. I do think we are going to need a section where the various arguments can be 'aired' - certainly we need a place for a discussion about the pros and cons of linking to Scotland. Also we will need to cover the very poor carbon performance of the proposed network to the midlands - personally there seems little point in replacing flying with something which is just as damaging and which is more expensive! [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 17:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
:::I have just made some changes to the route section by creating a new section for stations - each one will probably deserve its own section in time - and moving relevant content in these sections. I have also created a section for brief stubs about other proposals (such as the Atkins study and RailTrack proposal) and moved some content there. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 18:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC) |
|||
{{reflist talk}} |
|||
== route == |
|||
== Crossed out text == |
|||
Why is a lot of text crossed out? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:2a01:4b00:bb18:a600:e738:4c0d:38f4:6829|2a01:4b00:bb18:a600:e738:4c0d:38f4:6829]] ([[User talk:2a01:4b00:bb18:a600:e738:4c0d:38f4:6829#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/2a01:4b00:bb18:a600:e738:4c0d:38f4:6829|contribs]]) 22:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)</small> |
|||
:If you're talking about the talk post above, see the user's history and [[WP:BE]] and [[WP:DENY]]. Also, I've noticed that you've made a few talk posts recently, please sign your talk posts and replies with four tildes at the end of each comment. It will produce a signature like this: [[User:Fork99|Fork99]] ([[User talk:Fork99|talk]]) 02:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
{| {{Railway line header}} |
|||
{{UKrail-header|High Speed Two Proposal|#FFA500}} |
|||
{{BS-table}} |
|||
{{BS4|||KBFa|||Leeds}} |
|||
{{BS4|STRrg|STRq|ABZrf|||}} |
|||
{{BS4|BHF||STR|||Manchester}} |
|||
{{BS4|STR||BHF|||Sheffield}} |
|||
{{BS4|STR||BHF|||East Midlands}} |
|||
{{BS4|ABZrg|STRq|STRrf|||}} |
|||
{{BS4|BHF|||||Birmingham}} |
|||
{{BS4|STR|||||}} |
|||
{{BS4|KBFe|||||London}} |
|||
|} |
|||
|} |
|||
== King's speech 17/7/24 == |
|||
The proposed route is still very much a matter of discussion. The best information seems to be for a 'Y' shaped route to Birmingham with spurs to Manchester and Leeds and then conventional rail to Scotland however the diagram shows a diamond shape with a route across the peaks! It also shows a station for Sheffield although I can find no evidence for that. Can someone edit the route diagram to get it to match the text or find citations to justify the diagram and adjust the text? A second question, how should we show the onward services to Scotland on conventional speed lines? [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 12:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC) |
|||
I reverted an IP edit that inferred far too much from the limited information we have to date. The Guardian merely says |
|||
*For the above reason the route diagram has been removed. I am placing it in this section for safe keeping! [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 09:37, 7 January 2010 (UTC) |
|||
{{blockquote|'''High-speed rail (Crewe to Manchester) bill''': An acknowledgement in law that Labour will not resurrect the Birmingham to Manchester leg of HS2, instead focusing on east to west links. |source=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/17/what-bills-are-included-in-the-kings-speech-and-what-will-they-do}} |
|||
That's it. Nothing more. We have to wait for the first reading. [[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 22:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:Modern Railways says this: |
|||
:*Thanks peter, I agree the route is still under discussion and is best taking off the article. We wont know about the spur lines until march so no one can say for sure what will be happening. Until then any news i see I will add to the relevant places[[User:Jayflux|Jayflux]] ([[User talk:Jayflux|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:''Also in the King’s Speech was a commitment to repurpose the previous Conservative Government’s High Speed Rail (Crewe to Manchester) Bill to improve connectivity in the north of England. The Bill includes powers for infrastructure in Manchester and the surrounding area, including at Manchester Piccadilly and Airport stations, and the Government says carrying it over ‘demonstrates commitment to making progress on rail connectivity whilst we work with local leaders on improved overall strategy.’'' |
|||
:It does not mention HS2, so phase 2 of HS2 remains canncelled. The WCML, ECML, MML are all high speed lines, falling into the definition. The bill says 'High Sped Rail', also mentions infrastructure relating to rail. Infrastructure can be 125mph High Speed Rail, or anything above, but not the HS2 project. Very obvious. [[Special:Contributions/143.58.172.236|143.58.172.236]] ([[User talk:143.58.172.236|talk]]) 10:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
::It does not say that the northern phase has been reactivated. This is [[WP:SYNTHESIS]]. Please wait until something clearer emerges. [[User:Cnbrb|Cnbrb]] ([[User talk:Cnbrb|talk]]) 11:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::Fully agree, thank you. [[User:10mmsocket|10mmsocket]] ([[User talk:10mmsocket|talk]]) 14:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::Exactly! It does not say the northern phase of HS2 has been reactivated whatsoever. [[Special:Contributions/143.58.246.185|143.58.246.185]] ([[User talk:143.58.246.185|talk]]) 22:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
::::The principle is very simple. If the source says X, then we write X. We do not write X+Y+Z and cite that source as the basis for it. --[[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:::::That is what happened. [[Special:Contributions/2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829|2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829]] ([[User talk:2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829|talk]]) 13:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
::::::...so source it! [[User:10mmsocket|10mmsocket]] ([[User talk:10mmsocket|talk]]) 15:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
In fact even the Grauniad seems to have embroidered the facts. [https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-kings-speech-2024 The speech] says nothing whatsoever about HS2. So we have no idea what definite plans HMG has. [[WP: NOTNEWS]], wait and see. --[[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
I don't want Germany - Leeds/Newcastle/Edinburgh train to take this route. |
|||
[[Special:Contributions/121.102.47.39|121.102.47.39]] ([[User talk:121.102.47.39|talk]]) 10:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Then you can sleep soundly; because there will not be any trains from Germany to destinations beyond London for a very long time. |
|||
:[[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 11:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:I'm sorry, but: What you ''want'' is off topic. What I want is off topic. This is not a railroad new group or forum. We need to describe what is really happening.--[[User:Bk1 168|Bk1 168]] ([[User talk:Bk1 168|talk]]) 13:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
: Where is the talk of a y-shaped route to Birmingham? Reports seem to be saying that it will have a fairly simply route from London to Birmingham, and then two spurs from Birmingham heading north east and north west. IE, the Y shape is the whole thing, with Birmingham as the point where the one line becomes two forks. [[User:Hobson|Hobson]] ([[User talk:Hobson|talk]]) 14:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:That seems prudent. [[User:10mmsocket|10mmsocket]] ([[User talk:10mmsocket|talk]]) 17:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== Wiki map == |
|||
:+1 <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">[[User:Cambial Yellowing|<i style="color:#999900">Cambial </i>]]— [[User talk:Cambial Yellowing|<b style="color:#218000">foliar❧</b>]]</span> 17:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
I have created a [http://www.umapper.com/maps/edit/id/58620/ 'wiki map' of the route] using UMapper. The route is a quick attempt to interpret the details given in the [http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/summary/ summary document]. Please feel free to refine the map which can then be exported as KML and the resulting map is available CCBYSA. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 13:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== HS2 phase 2 is cancelled == |
|||
:On brief reflection possibly UMapper should be a source of the KML version but someone should do an SVG version for the article itself which allows more people to edit it without using proprietary tools. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 13:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Repeated and verifiable announcements by the previous and current governments have confirmed it is cancelled. Will the offending editors please accept this. Text in the article that the phase may be revived is inappropriate and just plain wishful thinking. The article does '''not''' need to be cluttered with irrelevant text. phase 2 is '''DEAD!''' Get used to it. [[Special:Contributions/2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829|2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829]] ([[User talk:2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829|talk]]) 13:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
::I have updated the map using a new clearer basemap but it would still be good to have a more informative map showing tunnelled sections, the route of high speed 1 and the optional routes further north as well as the location of stations for HS2. Btw, the documentation seems to be inconsistent about whether the Leeds spur is part of the 'core network' or not. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 14:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::: The 'command paper' shows the 'ES-1 diagram core route diagram' showing the core route is London-Liverpool but not to Leeds; however figure 4.6 of refers to the route as a 'Y' but then only shows the Liverpool fork of the Y; figures 4.1 to 4.4 do show the Y with the Leeds spur as core; the 'Leaflet' only shows the detailed route London-B'ham. I guess we need to read this stuff properly, however there is a question about how to show the route to Leeds is a detailed route has not be published. I will mark the map on the article as 'London-Birmingham' route. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 14:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::The map wiki is not working well. I have updated it twice and lost my work, possibly because someone else had it in edit mode at the same time? I have also had to remove some graffiti from it once - I guess it has not got safeguards about two people editing at the same time. Also, UMapper doesn't seem to have a change history and revert which is a big problem for administration. Possibly it will have to be locked it down soon. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 14:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:As above - source it! [[User:10mmsocket|10mmsocket]] ([[User talk:10mmsocket|talk]]) 15:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
OK, so I have fixed the problem of the map getting trashed - I had created a link to the 'edit' view of the map rather than the normal view in the External Links section so it was inevitable that people would change the map when they had looked at it. Unfortunately there is no history view, no roll back, no transaction locking and no way to take a copy of the current content in UMapper at present. As such I suggest that we now lock the map down to a list of trusted editors. Would anyone like to be on that list? If so please add you name below here and I will add them to the map when I lock it down in about 24 hours. Thinking about it I will need people's UMapper user name which may or may not be the same as their Wikipedia user name. Please add your UMapper user name below here and I will add you:[[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 13:42, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::Sources were given. You never read them. [[Special:Contributions/2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829|2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829]] ([[User talk:2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829|talk]]) 15:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
|||
*[[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) |
|||
== Intro == |
|||
*... more? |
|||
This has been changed coming across as very amateurish. [[Special:Contributions/143.58.172.212|143.58.172.212]] ([[User talk:143.58.172.212|talk]]) 20:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:It looks beyond redemption. [[User:Progress and on|Progress and on]] ([[User talk:Progress and on|talk]]) 00:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== Northern trains take a strange route == |
|||
The article replete with detail says that [[HS2]] would take the [[Greenford Branch Line]]. That seems to reflect either unintelligent planning or careless editing. This map <ref>http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/keyplan.pdf</ref> (said to locate the proposed route to within five metres at some points) has it running up the [[New North Main Line]].--[[User:SilasW|SilasW]] ([[User talk:SilasW|talk]]) 10:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Fazeley Street/Curzon Street== |
|||
Despite what Lord Adonis said and all of the newspapers faithfully parroted, he report actually explicitly dismisses the idea of using the Curzon Street site. The actual station is referred to as "Fazeley Street" in the report and, whilst adjoining the old Curzon Street site, will not occupy the same space as the former station. This needs to be made clearer. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.196.116.196|94.196.116.196]] ([[User talk:94.196.116.196|talk]]) 10:49, 12 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
{{reflist}} |
|||
------------------------------ |
|||
===We should use Curzon Street=== |
|||
Firstly note that the actual roads Fazely Street and Curzon Street are extremely close. |
|||
HS2 considered separate station sites at Curzon Street and Fazely Street, slightly different but overlapping/adjacent. Their final preferred site was the one they termed Fazeley Street. |
|||
The govt in their command paper adopted the hs2 preferred site for the station, but called it Curzon Street. |
|||
Note that the command paper post dates and is a response to the high speed 2 report. |
|||
Therefore Curzon St is the more up to date name. Also it has been referred to as curzon street in the press. For example see: |
|||
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-transport-news/2010/03/11/birmingham-s-eastside-plans-must-change-to-accommodate-high-speed-rail-65233-26014785/ |
|||
And by MPs debating in the house of commons: |
|||
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100311/debtext/100311-0009.htm |
|||
I don't think I've seen any reference to it in the media as Fazely Street. Therefore I think Curzon St is the name in general use and likely to stick. We should refer to the station as Curzon St, while noting the alternative name of Fazeley St. |
|||
I altered the article in accordance with this. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.11.90.64|86.11.90.64]] ([[User talk:86.11.90.64|talk]]) 13:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
== Bad references to DFT source == |
|||
The article has multiple references like this <nowiki><ref>[[#Dft2009a|Department for Transport (2009a)]], pages 16 paragraphs 37</ref></nowiki> First and most important, these lead nowhere. There is no section entitled Dft2009a. <br> |
|||
If whoever did this had in mind multiple references, then see the ref name="shortname" style. But if every reference should be unique (which seems likely, as they are to different pages), then they should use the conventional reference style.<br> |
|||
This is an embarrassing faux-pas in a very topical article and needs to be repaired ASAP. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 20:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:These refs work fine for me. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 20:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:If you're already at the bottom of the page, the browser can't scroll you any closer! (Experiment with making your browser window one line of text high, clicking, and seeing if you get a different result). —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 20:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::I don't disagree that it takes you to the bottom of the page. But it doesn't take you away to the reference article, which is what it should do and which is what happens in every other article. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 21:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::Ok, I see that [[WP:CITESHORT]] approves of this way of doing things, and that someone has just brought the article into compliance with it. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 21:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Sure, the citation format used for some references in this article is CITESHORT which seems to be the appropriate way to do it when there are many references into the same source documents however we had not implemented it quite right and I have now added a 'Notes' section heading as per guidance. I am still not clear if one should mix the two formatting systems in the same article and the examples given are note very clear on this. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 21:38, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Old Oak Common: link to Heathrow and Plymouth == |
|||
If I've read the DfT paper correctly through all the hand waving, I think that the link to Heathrow and the Great Western line is at Old Oak Common and not after it, as shown in the schematic. Could someone else check? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 21:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:The diagram[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&oldid=349611000] shows the proposed interchange station at Old Oak Common with the [[Great Western Main Line]] (with trains towards [[Paddington railway station]] in one direction and trains towards [[Heathrow Central railway station]] and the West Country in the other. Could you be more detailed about what you believe to be incorrect (the relevant PDF is [http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/map02.pdf]). —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 14:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:: It's ok, I misread the schematic. The text refers to the conventional line shown on the other side of the high-speed line. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 15:43, 15 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Why == |
|||
Why does every proposal for a railway yield virtual reams of material, often ill-considered and repetitive, while many an extant railway's article is sadly lacking in detail:(eg [[Great Western Railway]] gives precious little mention of branch lines?--[[User:SilasW|SilasW]] ([[User talk:SilasW|talk]]) 10:58, 14 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Each to their own I guess. I have done a lot of work on [[:Category:Railway_lines_in_the_East_of_England|railway lines in the East of England]] and most now have articles with a basic history, description and description of future plans. Feel free to do the same in other places, however the Great Western Railway article is already pretty long so possibly branch lines should have their own article. I will review this article for repetition and sloppiness and put also to ensure that there are either references of 'fact' tags for all claims. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 08:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Probably because a lot of GWR documentation isn't available online, plus death rates (and birth rates) etc. Also current events always attract a lot of interest, often unwanted. |
|||
:As far as the internet is concerned the universe was created sometime in the early 1990s.. :) .[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 02:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Up-issue of command paper to correct errors in original == |
|||
Various minor errors in the original command paper appear to have been fixed in the last couple of days. The errors I have found are not material however it it interesting to note that there doesn't not appear to be a visible versioning system for the document. The changes I have noted are with the diagrams which had a number of errors in them. In particular: |
|||
*Corrections to some layering issues in the original document for various figure, cleared up in later version. The figures that have changed include the following: Fig ES.1 and Fig 4.2, Fig 4.4, Fig 4.5, Fig. 4.6, Fig 6.3 |
|||
*An incorrectly labeled road (reference 'A4') on Fig 6.8 has now been corrected to 'A45'. |
|||
*I have not been able to check much of the document however, it was by chance that I copied the diagrams over the weekend. |
|||
[[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 09:17, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Can we agree on a better name for the 'Crossrail interchange' == |
|||
I notice that the interchange referred to as the 'Crossrail interchange' in the HS2 documentation is referred to as the HS2 Interchange in the scheme diagram in the Crossrail article. Should we give the interchange a consistent working title of 'Old Oak Common Interchange' across both articles until a more formal title is published?[[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 09:23, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:I added that interchange on the crossrail route diagram and, whilst I concur that "HS2 interchange" might not be the nicest option it would seem to be the clearest for readers. "Old Oak Common" is pretty meaningless for most people who have no idea of the history of the area and it is highly unlikely to be the name of the interchange station (caveat:should it ever get built). All we know for the present is that there is an interchange station planned and which two crossrail stations it will be situated between. --[[User:AlisonW|AlisonW]] ([[User talk:AlisonW|talk]]) 10:23, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::I take your point. Possibly we should leave it alone for now and allow people to make the connection between the two names. It is certainly good to be starting to add details and links to other articles that are affected by this proposal. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 13:15, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Standard gauge, loading gauge and structure gauge== |
|||
We should be clear about the difference between [[standard gauge]] (which relates to the separation of the tracks) and [[loading gauge]] / [[structure gauge]] which relate to the required dimensions of trains that can use the route. As I see it the route will be constructed using standard gauge for the separation between the rails but will use the larger European structure gauge to allow larger trains to use the route. [[User:PeterEastern|PeterEastern]] ([[User talk:PeterEastern|talk]]) 08:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Unwanted edits== |
|||
The user at IP address 121.102.47.215 is a known troublemaker and other Wikipedia pages and other Reference websites have had issues with this particular person adding in Point of View references with no regard to the actual facts or referenced material - a simple Google of the IP address shows this and checking the IP address history in Wikipedia will show this too. I have traced the IP address to Excite Japan Co. in the region of Saitama, Japan and I will make a complaint to the ISP if this persists. --[[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 12:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Agree. Having deleted his earlier rantings here which I see he chose to revert, I have added a suitable warning on his Talk Page[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 15:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Community Groups == |
|||
I have added a small section on the known community groups formed following publication of the proposals and the umbrella group where these groups are listed and their collective aims are set out.[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 23:13, 18 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:You are right to add the information but with the bulleted points, it is more like a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of HS2 Action Alliance. In my opinion you should remove the stated aims sentence and the bullet points to make it sound less of a campaign (as there are other forums for that, not Wikipedia) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Geezertronic|contribs]]) 12:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
Agree with geezertronic fundamentally wikipedia pages must be unbiased, the community groups section has a definite anti HS2 bias, therefore it must either be removed entirely or the article re-balanced by also describing groups supporting HS2 eg Greenguage21 and the benefists of HS2 (economic, job creation etc). Until this is resolved I have removed bulletpoints re action alliance. [[User:brianthegiant|brianthegiant]] ([[User talk:brianthegiant|talk]] |
|||
:The inclusion of information on HS2 Action Alliance is not a demonstration of "anti-HS2 Bias" nor is it campaigning just stating the factual aims of the organisation, rather its exclusion would be an example of cenorship of any information which relations to objections to the development of HS2. [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view]] states:- "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a particular topic. It requires that all majority views and significant minority views published by reliable sources be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material. Therefore, material should not be removed solely on the grounds that it is "POV", but it must not give undue weight to a minor point of view...". There is already information about the supporting organisations Greengage21, Scottish Government and HSR:UK.Accordingly I have restored the information which was deleted in any case without any explanation.[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 18:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC) |
|||
@Tmol42 i think we reached a good compromise :-) [[User:Brianthegiant|Brianthegiant]] ([[User talk:Brianthegiant|talk]]) 20:39, 18 October 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== electrification == |
|||
High Speed 2 will use 3 kV DC not 25 kV AC, because voltage system in UK will change from 25 kV AC to 3 kV DC. [[Nordic race|Nordic people]] want to convert to 3 kV DC, while [[Alpine race|Alpine people]] and [[Mediterranean race|Mediterranean people]] want to convert to 25 kV AC. Great Britain, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and northern Germany want to convert to 3 kV DC. |
|||
[[Special:Contributions/121.102.47.39|121.102.47.39]] ([[User talk:121.102.47.39|talk]]) 07:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
: I have undone your edit because there is no proof anywhere that this is going to happen. If you want to prove your theory by posting a link to a valid source then please do so, otherwise stop abusing Wikipedia articles with your unsubstantiated claims. You have been warned before about this sort of edits on other European pages, please refrain from non referenced edits otherwise I will request that your IP address is blocked from editing [[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 07:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:121.x.x.x, please forget about writing this junk about change from AC to 3kV DC and the totally absurd connection between nordic or alpine or whatever races and railroad technologies. It will be removed anyway from articles, is totally off topic in discussions and is just a waste of resources.--[[User:Bk1 168|Bk1 168]] ([[User talk:Bk1 168|talk]]) 07:57, 28 May 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Rolling stock information/pictures == |
|||
Are we able to incorporate any of this info/pictures into the article - the pictures would be very good but obviously subject to copyright. [http://www.priestmangoode.com/content/uploads/Mercury-The-Next-Great-British-Design-Icon.pdf] [[User:Willdow|<sub>'''Will'''</sub><sup>''Dow''</sup>]] [[User_Talk:Willdow| ''(Talk)'']] 11:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Unfortunately it is impossible to include copyright pictures (or, indeed, just about any pictures that one has not taken oneself) in Wikipedia. [[User:Alarics|Alarics]] ([[User talk:Alarics|talk]]) 12:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Journey times == |
|||
Someone removed content on real journey times, stating it was non NPOV and uncited. |
|||
<br /> |
|||
The guidelines state inline citations are required for any material challenged or likely to be challenged. |
|||
<br /> |
|||
I cannot see how the content can be challenged, or is likely to be challenged.<br />Real journeys do not start, or finish, at railway stations, still less HS2 stations. Discussion of journey times needs to acknowledge that fact. |
|||
<br /><br /> |
|||
Removal of contextual information is harmful, because of the article's heavy reliance on primary and quasi-primary sources.<br /> |
|||
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources |
|||
<br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 22:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:The edit contained an opinion about HS2 through contrasting travel by two different methods. As such and without a cite it amounts to original research contextual or ortherwise.[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 22:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::Just reverted it again. You cannot compare journey times to Coventry since any existing HS2 plans do not include Coventry. Your comment regarding point to point journeys has no relevance either IMO as that applies to existing rail journeys as well. I wouldn't expect HS2 or VirginTrains (or London Midland) to give me a point to point time from my house to where I work in London? And your comments about locations close to HS2 is a POV and I can counter that since I live near Birmingham International as the time saving for a journey into London via any proposed HS2 line would be quicker than the existing VT or LM service for me.--[[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 09:45, 17 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::<em>"You cannot compare journey times to Coventry since any existing HS2 plans do not include Coventry."</em><br /> |
|||
:::They do include Coventry.<br /> |
|||
:::Because the stated purpose of the initial HS2 is a high speed line between London and the West Midlands. Not London and Birmingham: <br /> |
|||
:::http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/55864 |
|||
:::Most residents of the West Midlands county <span style="color:green">do not live in Birmingham</span>, so it's necessary to look at the effect of HS2 journeys on journeys to and from Coventry, Wolverhampton, Walsall, etc.<br /> |
|||
:::<em>"I wouldn't expect HS2 or VirginTrains (or London Midland) to give me a point to point time from my house to where I work in London?"</em><br /> |
|||
:::This is to confuse <br /> |
|||
:::<span style="color:green">railway timetables</span> (the realm of railway operators)<br /> |
|||
:::with |
|||
:::<span style="color:green">average and modal time savings</span> (the realm of transport planning).<br /> |
|||
:::<em>"Your comment regarding point to point journeys has no relevance either IMO as that applies to existing rail journeys as well."</em> |
|||
:::Like needs to be compared with like.<br /> |
|||
:::Whether made by existing rail or HS2, real journeys do not begin or end at railway stations, train-spotters possibly excepted.<br /> |
|||
:::It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.<br /> |
|||
:::But disingenuousness is the result, if one presents, unannotated, material from Steer Davies Gleave.<br /> |
|||
:::SDG presents difficulties as a reliable source. It appears to have links with 'Greengauge 21', a supposedly 'not for profit' high speed rail advocacy 'group' with unknown membership, funding sources, telephone number, and address.<br /> |
|||
:::<em>"And your comments about locations close to HS2 is a POV and I can counter that since I live near Birmingham International as the time saving for a journey into London via any proposed HS2 line would be quicker than the existing VT or LM service for me."</em><br /> |
|||
:::What matters is the time savings for point to point journeys. People living near Birmingham International, a tiny proportion of West Midlands county residents, would not significantly affect the economic evaluation. <br /> |
|||
:::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===Going to, vis-à-vis, serving a destination=== |
|||
Someone reverted an edit, stating "HS2 does not go to Coventry".<br /> |
|||
But the edit didn't claim that it did go to Coventry. According to http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/55864 the HS2 line is intended to <span style="color:green">serve</span> the West Midlands. The narrower interpretation of the term 'West Midlands' - more favourable to HS2 - is the metropolitan county, which includes 7 boroughs, including Coventry. |
|||
Similarly |
|||
1. la Gare TGV Haute Picardie <br /> |
|||
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_TGV_Haute-Picardie |
|||
isn't in Amiens (the LGV does not go there) but is intended to serve Amiens. |
|||
2. the HS2 East Midlands parkway station<br /> |
|||
is intended to serve Nottingham and/or Derby, but may not go to either of those cities.<br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:16, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Boo hoo. HS2 won't stop in Aachen either. Shall I add text complaining that Aachener's journeys will be much longer if they use HS2? ;-) [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 10:29, 19 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::At the time of writing, the article states "<em>High Speed 2 (HS2) is a proposed British high-speed railway serving the Midlands and North West of England with a possible "Y" shaped route from London to Birmingham and then two spurs, one to Manchester and the other to Leeds via the East Midlands.</em>"<br /> |
|||
::If someone proposes a high speed railway between London and 'the Midlands', it seems reasonable for an article about it to document effects on journey times between 'the Midlands' and London.<br /> |
|||
::Or perhaps not, given User: Sladen's contribution:<br /> |
|||
::"<em>Because High Speed 2 would only serve a very small subset of those destinations on the existing railway network, time comparisons can only be made when both the existing and high-speed services would terminate at approximately the same locations at each end. For many existing destinations, such as Coventry, rail users would continue to use the existing 'classic' services.</em>" |
|||
::What, then, is this destination subset, that, according to Sladen, "time comparisons can only be made (on)?". |
|||
::Wolverhampton - London allowed? If not, why not?<br /> |
|||
::Tamworth - London allowed? If not, why not?<br /> |
|||
::Solihull - London allowed? If not, why not?<br /> |
|||
::They're all major towns in "the Midlands".<br /> |
|||
::Yet the article states HS2 is a "planned British high-speed railway serving the Midlands".<br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::Eg. "Midlands" equals Birmingham, Nottingham/Derby, others...: the terminology is vague and encompassing because the final plans have not yet been announced. Since only four stations (two in London, Bickenhill, and Central Birmingham) have been announced thus far, any comparison is usefully kept to those and present similar journeys. The purpose of high-speed rail (much the same as for aeroplanes) is to go long-distances, quickly, without stopping at every village. —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 00:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::<em>"The purpose of high-speed rail (much the same as for aeroplanes) is to go long-distances, quickly, without stopping at every village."</em><br /> |
|||
::::I don't call Birmingham - London or Birmingham - Derby, "long distance" (airlines' market share: about %0). And I don't call Coventry, or Wolverhampton, "a village". <br /> |
|||
::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:31, 22 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::Yup, I ''agree''. —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 00:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:: Haskanik - it sounds like you are confusing the Labour plans for HS2 with the Conservative plans for HS2 (which are different in design, route and end location if the information available is to be believed). You should do more research on the differences between the two and if you want to carry out a discussion you should join a railway related forum rather than airing POV views on Wikipedia (www.railforums.co.uk is a good start) --[[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 11:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::What "POV views"?<br /> |
|||
:::The POV is in claiming that journey time "comparisions" (sic) "only make sense when the end points are the same, or approximately for current and future high-speed services" (Sladen).<br /> |
|||
:::That's patent nonsense.<br /> |
|||
:::The undercurrent in HS2 promotion is that it significantly speeds up journeys between London and 'the Midlands'. If that's the case, it's rational to quantify the effects on Midland towns, not HS2 stopping points. Because people generally wouldn't be living in HS2 railway stations. |
|||
:::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==remeoved ref-improve tag but== |
|||
Saw no reason for it, however the article mentions the "eddington report", but no link.. That is an obvious ommision. Thanks. KUTGW.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 02:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:<em>"remeoved ref-improve tag but Saw no reason for it"</em><br /> |
|||
:I'd suggest looking at the article. As previously intimated, it's heavily dependent on a small number of primary sources. |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::Aside from the notes from official sources there are 36 citations referenced for this article. It would be helpful if you could draw attention to those you consider to be the ''small number of primary sources'' on which you contend the artical is ''heavily dependent'' on. [[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 17:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::The use of a 'Notes' section appears to be an attempt to mask the narrowness and primary-sourceness of the citation base.<br /> |
|||
:::I'm not sure what the distinction is between 'Notes' and 'References' in this article.<br /> |
|||
:::Most articles do not use a separate 'Notes' section, and I can't see why (for example) |
|||
:::http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/hs2report/pdf/chapter3d.pdf |
|||
:::isn't a "note from official sources", yet it appears in the 'References' section. |
|||
:::HS2 Ltd appears to be an extension of DfT. <br /> |
|||
:::http://www.hs2.org.uk/, "About HS2 Ltd", doesn't even explain its relationship with DfT.<br /> |
|||
:::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 21:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::If you look at the links included on the HS2 Ltd site you will find links and references to the setting up of HS2 Ltd and its remit and these make clear the distinction between HS2 and the DfT and that they are clearly separate entities. HS2 Ltd is a Company with limited liability set up by the Government in 2009 to undertake feasibility studies with a view to identifying and developing route options, cost benefits and financing of a High Speed Rail Network. The DfT is a Government Department. See [http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedtwo/hs2remit/funding.pdf here]. |
|||
::::The article sections describing the technical and related aspects of HS2 underpinned by notes properly refer to key Government Strategy document and the Government's Command Paper. You should [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]] rather than accuse the editors who included these citations under a heading of 'Notes' of using obscuration tactics. These are the most appropriate sources for the factual information about HS2. No doubt one could move an individual citation or all of them for that matter from one list to another but that does not invalidate an individual citation or the validity of the article's content. Again, aside from the notes there are 36 cited sources and the article cannot be said to rely on a small number of what you prefer to classify as 'primary sources'.[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 22:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::<em>"These are the most appropriate sources for the factual information about HS2."</em><br /> |
|||
:::::According to whom?<br /> |
|||
:::::Other technical articles do not generally use the Notes format.<br /> |
|||
:::::Whether the information is "factual" remains to be seen, and whether DfT and HS2 Limited are truly distinct sources is up for discussion (same applies to Steer Davies Gleave and Greengauge 21).<br /> |
|||
:::::But that they are primary sources, surely isn't.<br /> |
|||
:::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::::I see, you wan't more non-primary sources, I've changed the tag accordingly.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 14:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== List of Opposing Organisations and Groups == |
|||
{{cquote|You have delete a list that I entered. |
|||
It was there to balance the list of supporting organisations and provide links for people who wish to obtain more information. The only other mention on this long page of such organisation was to a different website which does not provide balance. |
|||
Unless you have valid reasons to the contrary, it will be restored. I will wait a few hour for your response |
|||
|4=Ladbroke76 |
|||
|5=[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAdambro&action=historysubmit&diff=396327772&oldid=396224478]}} |
|||
:I'm just struggling to see how such a list is particularly appropriate or helpful. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things that such and such parish council or some very small local single issue action group is opposed? We should, just as with the supporting organisations, only mention the more significant organisations. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 15:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:: The supporting organisations are given a complete section and each has a subsection and description. If the same coverage were given to the 60+ opposing organisations the page would be swamped. For this reason I gave only their names and I put them in a table to reduce the acreage of page they occupy. Greengauge 21 is also a single-issue organisation! [[User:Ladbroke76|Ladbroke76]] ([[User talk:Ladbroke76|talk]]) 16:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::Note that I'm not saying the article's coverage of supporting organisation is perfect, rather that a big table of every tiny organisation that may be opposed isn't particularly useful. Why do we need to list every group that is opposed? [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 16:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::: There is an issue that a number of organisations you have listed are residents associations or councils; you would therefore need to cite reliable sources that state that these organisations are opposed. Furthermore there are umbrella groups (STOP HS2 and and HS2 Action Alliance) and it may be better to mention these, stating that they have a significant number of component, local organisations. |
|||
::: Alternatively, I can compile a list of chambers of commerce, local councils, passenger transport executives, regional development organisations and campaigning groups in favour of HS2, although I imagine that would also result in a huge list of organisations that really serves little useful purpose to the reader. Remember, this is an encyclopaedia. [[User:NRTurner|NRTurner]] ([[User talk:NRTurner|talk]]) 16:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::Then I suggest that you remove Railfuture and Scottish Chambers of commerce: High Speed 2 Scotland <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ladbroke76|Ladbroke76]] ([[User talk:Ladbroke76|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ladbroke76|contribs]]) 17:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:::A protest group in a small village might represent 100 people, that's probably 90 more than Greengauge 21 represents. Greengauge 21 is a vehicle for Jim Steer, and his opinion should carry no more weight than anyone who lives in the path of the line. |
|||
:::Ditto for Railfuture, I don't think they even publish how many members they have. |
|||
:::If local authorities and organisations (e.g., chambers of commerce) in favour in the route are going to be listed, then I can't see why local authorities and organisations who aren't in favour, should not be. <br /> |
|||
:::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 01:04, 13 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::In case you missed my earlier comment above let me repeat it, "I'm not saying the article's coverage of supporting organisation is perfect". What we should be doing here is considering a criteria for determining that an organisation (supporting or opposing) merits a specific mention in this article. If there is an issue with the significance of some of the supporting organisations then that shuold be addressed by discussing their removal, not adding a big list of (yet more?) insignificant organisations who are opposing. On the long list of opposing groups, there must be a few that can be considered more significant and at a national level such as perhaps "Stop HS2", or "HS2 Action Alliance" as examples. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 11:02, 13 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::I didn't miss any earlier comment. There just needs to be some common sense in the article, so that Chiltern Conservation Board (et al) are mentioned, if Railfuture (et al) are going to be. Railfuture doesn't have any particular insight or mandate. |
|||
:::::And describing Greengauge 21 as a "Supporting Organisation" is pushing it. In essence, it's a propaganda vehicle for high speed rail, consisting of Jim Steer, and his dog.<br /> |
|||
:::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::::I thought we were trying to discuss this? Instead it seems the entire list has been reinstated. What about trying to consider a criteria for mentioning organisations to assess their significance? Despite the comments that the removal of this big list wasn't an endorsement of how the supporting organisations are mentioned you seem to have taken it to be. As a start, we could consider as a minimum that the organisation works at a national level and has received coverage in the national press? That doesn't seem a too unreasonable criteria for considering whether a particular organisation merits mentioning but perhaps you could say what you might suggest? [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 11:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::Both the opposing and supporting organisations content is problematic, and may stay that way, without some kind of rewrite or restructure. |
|||
:::::::I reinstated the opposing organisations table as a balancing stopgap. I can think of various problems with 'working at a national level, plus 1 instance of national press coverage' as a qualifier. |
|||
:::::::Some of the opposing organisations are listed without some sort of citation, or hyperlink, and I already mentioned some of the issues with the supporting side. So it might be worth considering dispensing with the listing of opposing and supporting organisations as distinct sections within this article. <br /> |
|||
:::::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 01:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::: I say nuke both sections, see WP:Lists [[User:WatcherZero|WatcherZero]] ([[User talk:WatcherZero|talk]]) 01:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::::Done, unless we can agree on a criteria for what organisations may be significant enough to mention then it shouldn't be included. Particurly where some think the answer to a problem with the list of supporting organisations is to add a much large list of opposiing organisations many of which are much less significanct in the grand scheme of things here. |
|||
:::::::::Haskanik's suggested there are various problems with my initial suggestion of "a minimum that the organisation works at a national level and has received coverage in the national press" but I'm not clear what these problems are. I can't say thuogh that I'm overwhelmingly concerned about keeping both lists so perhaps if we are content to not include either then we don't need to bother discussing a criteria. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 11:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::::::::Although my initial gut feeling was that "national" implied the organisation might be substantial enough to mention rather than just one passing press-release among many, on reflection, I think that it's pretty natural that there will be some opponents to the scheme who work on a strictly local basis, so a rule like that would skew the list a little. |
|||
::::::::::However, if an organisation got their claim picked up by ''somebody else'' at a national level (ie. when some major newspaper covered HS2, did this organisation provide a soundbite?), that could be a pretty good criterion which puts the key players in the list. Does that sound reasonable? |
|||
::::::::::Aside from the local/national thing, I'm most interested in sourcing. If we can find a mention of ''any'' of these organisations in any independent source, that would make me happy. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 12:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::::::I think there's also an issue of notability. If a small group of 100 people opposing HS2 did something notable as part of their campaign then they deserve a mention, such as amassing an x-hundred word petition or some form of direct action. Simply having an opinion about something isn't necessarily notable. |
|||
:::::::::::I broadly agree with AdamBro and bobrayner on this. [[User:NRTurner|NRTurner]] ([[User talk:NRTurner|talk]]) 12:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
The section about supporting organisations was added to balance with the paragraph titled ' community organisations' which gives the HS2 page an anti-HS2 bias. and for a while it seemed a compromise had been reached. Now the supporting orgs section is deleted, but the "community groups" (which are all anti-HS2) is still included so we've gone back to the anti bias. I think use of the notability definition as a criteria to get a mention is a good suggestion, ie "is the organisation notable enough to get its own wikipedia page on a permanent basis". Perhaps also mention of opposing /supporting organisations should be limited to title and 2 lines of text, anything more should go in a separate page for that org (if its notable enough..)[[User:Brianthegiant|Brianthegiant]] ([[User talk:Brianthegiant|talk]]) 21:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:The idea that having a "paragraph titled ' community organisations'...gives the HS2 page an anti-HS2 bias" strikes me as weird. Unless someone wants to pretend that there is no community opposition. |
|||
:Creating a section for supporting organisations invited the creation of a section for opposing organisations. Which led to an arms race as to which 'side' could have the longest list, with inevitable double counting of the same people, arguments about eligibility, etc. |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 01:21, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::If a particular section was problematic only in that one or more editors reacted to it with inappropriate editing elsewhere, that section wasn't really the problem at all. I shall restore the supporting section unless somebody can actually give a sensible reason for deleting it. If a different section is flawed, ''fix that other section'' instead of deleting relevant sourced content. If we actually agree on criteria for inclusion then I'd happily trim the list of supporters to fit those criteria, but I suspect the named supporters all pass the criteria that have been suggested so far. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 10:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::"If a particular section was problematic only in that one or more editors reacted to it with inappropriate editing elsewhere"<br /> |
|||
:::No. There are other issues - dubious notability, copyvio, and POV. And I don't think it's easily 'fixable'. <br /> |
|||
:::<em>"High Speed 2 Scotland is a meeting of minds between Scotland’s businesses and public sector to promote High Speed Rail from Scotland to London."</em> <br /> |
|||
:::(Apparent copyright violation) <br /> |
|||
:::<em>"Railfuture is campaigning for Britain to follow the example of France, Germany and Spain in building new high-speed rail lines. They help regeneration and are highly popular." </em><br /> |
|||
:::(I'd be looking for reliable evidence that high speed rail projects, in general, "help regeneration", and are "highly popular". A lot more people in Britain use motorways than long distance rail, so presumably that makes motorways 'highly popular', and 'more popular'.) <br /> |
|||
:::Etc. <br /> |
|||
:::Common sense appears to have been struck by a Velaro travelling at full speed. So, in the interests of balance, I'll put the opposing organisations back in. <br /> |
|||
:::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 19:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::There seems to have been some misunderstanding. If you are able to point out copyvio, you should ''fix that copyvio'' rather than pasting in a big unrelated list. |
|||
::::It looks like Adambro fixed what you pointed out (if he hadn't, I would have). But, y'know, just for future reference, if you can identify a specific policy violation, feel free to fix it directly, rather using it as a cue to add or remove large volumes of unrelated text. |
|||
::::[[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 20:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::Feel free to add an opposing organisations section back in, when adding a supporting organisations section back in. <br /> |
|||
:::::Rephrasing junk content, so that it doesn't break copyright is wasted effort, when there are so many other problems with this page, including the newly created balance issues associated with trying to exclude opposition groups, while adding Mr Steer's lobbying company.<br /> |
|||
:::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:36, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
The Green Party neither support nor oppose HS2 until after their spring conference when they will be debating the issue. See reference on BBC website "There is a fierce internal debate on, for example, high-speed rail lines. Greens have supported those in the past. Now a conference motion suggests they are "not compatible with creating a fair and just society". I have deleted their name from Supporters section for this reason. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11263540 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.43.169.203|217.43.169.203]] ([[User talk:217.43.169.203|talk]]) 13:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:So they changed position, yet couldn't be bothered to publicise that fact? The reference has to be to latest stated policy. Which appears to be pro. <br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 21:46, 7 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Until the Green Party actually come out and either support or oppose they shouldnt be on the list. See http://www.chilterngreenparty.org.uk/news/25/54/Concern-over-route-for-HS2.html <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.43.169.203|217.43.169.203]] ([[User talk:217.43.169.203|talk]]) 08:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:<em>"Until the Green Party actually come out and either support or oppose they shouldnt be on the list. See http://www.chilterngreenparty.org.uk/news/25/54/Concern-over-route-for-HS2.html"</em> <br /> |
|||
:They have come out. <br /> |
|||
:To reflect that there exists a spectrum of views, I added a section for ambiguous/noncommittal positions. I looked at organisations' statements of position. <br /> |
|||
:Does The Green Party have a position?<br /> |
|||
:Yes.<br /> |
|||
:Is it noncommittal? <br /> |
|||
:No. It's support, in principle, for HS2 (specifically mentioned, not just high speed rail "generally"). |
|||
:Verbatim from the linked article:<br /> |
|||
:"While <span style='color:green'>HS2</span> is not our priority for expenditure we do <span style="color:green">support</span> it in principle." |
|||
:If the stated position changes, that fact can be added.<br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 19:29, 8 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
"While HS2 is not our priority for expenditure we do support it in principle." They then go on to list 17 points outlining their concerns. Therefore they are not in favour. Take them out or put them under ambiguous / noncomittal or you are not reflecting the truth. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.43.169.203|217.43.169.203]] ([[User talk:217.43.169.203|talk]]) 14:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
::Green Party support seems clearer than Railfuture's - whose [http://www.railfuture.org.uk/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=179 draft high speed rail statement] doesn't even mention HS2 by name. Complain to the Party, rather than claim, falsely, that they haven't "come out" on the issue. <br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
No point complaining to the Party - they have scheduled a debate on HS2 at their Spring Conference. This page is specifically about HS2 not High Speed Rail in general. 17 points outlining their objections to HS2 (as opposed to HSR) means the Green Party are not "supporters" of this particular proposal. Therefore the Green Party should be in "ambiguous" section or taken off the page altogether until after their Spring conference. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.43.169.203|217.43.169.203]] ([[User talk:217.43.169.203|talk]]) 09:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:I think http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&oldid=401301152 doesn't misrepresent the Green Party position, but if setting out further details provides better consensus, then great. <br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::One of several confusions with the Green Party position is the apparently contradictory views when comparing the highly qualified support for HS2 of the National Party policy and the campaigning views against HS2 expressed by the Chiltern branch from whose website the citation used is drawn. see [http://www.chilterngreenparty.org.uk/news/42/54/HIGH-SPEED-RAIL-PROTEST-RALLY.html here].[[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 00:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Protest action== |
|||
<span style="color:green">I am looking in to this aspect</span>.--[[User:Wipsenade|Wipsenade]] ([[User talk:Wipsenade|talk]]) 15:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
'''Protests and meetings.''' |
|||
A minor rally was held in favour of HS2 in [[West Ruislip|W. Ruislip]] on January 2nd(http://www.steggarail.org/hsr/2 dead link), 2010.<ref>http://www.steggarail.org/hsr/2 (dead link)</ref>. |
|||
The [[Chilterns Conservation Board]] held a meeting about HS2 in [[Wendover]] on 21st April, 2010(http://www.chilternsaonb.org/hs2/) <ref>http://www.chilternsaonb.org/hs2/</ref>. |
|||
According to the [[Banbury Guardian]] [[Newspaper]] (as of the September 30th edition), The transport minister met protesters at a rally in [[Brackley]] that week <ref>Banbury Guardian Newspaper-as of the September 30th edition</ref>. |
|||
A protest was held near the Conservative Party conference on October the 4th, 2010 acording to the BBC <ref>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11470731</ref>. |
|||
According to [[The Bucks Herald]] [[Newspaper]] (as of the October 6th edition), angry protesters drove the transport secretary and his HS2 lobbyist out of [[Aylesbury]] that week <ref>The Bucks Herald Newspaper (as of the October 6th edition)</ref>. |
|||
According to [[The Bucks Herald]] [[Newspaper]] (as of the November 10th edition), a major protest rally took place [[Aylesbury]] that week <ref>The Bucks Herald Newspaper (as of the November 10th edition)</ref>. |
|||
--[[User:Wipsenade|Wipsenade]] ([[User talk:Wipsenade|talk]]) 15:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Reflist== |
|||
{{reflist}} |
|||
== 600 houses == |
|||
"HS2's Birmingham stage would result in the demolition of around 600 houses" |
|||
Where does this figure of 600 houses come from? I've seen 440 mentioned, e.g. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/7078215/Hundreds-of-homes-will-go-for-new-high-speed-rail-line.html here]. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 20:13, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:440 can be used, in the absence of any other report. Unlike future traffic levels, there'd be no need to speculate about this. If the HS2 company provided high resolution mapping of the line and access roads, diversion of roads, etc. <br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Sadiq Khan MP - when Minister for Transport - stated in reply to a question by Tony Baldry (reference Hansard) that over 600 houses would be demolished. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.157.131.197|86.157.131.197]] ([[User talk:86.157.131.197|talk]]) 00:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:No he didn't, he said "affected" which doesn't necessarily mean demolished. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 11:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC). |
|||
::21,000 will be "affected". 600 will be demolished. This has been confirmed to me on a Freedom of Information request with HS2 Ltd. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:86.157.131.197|86.157.131.197]] ([[User talk:86.157.131.197|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.157.131.197|contribs]]) 12:11, 28 November 2010</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->} |
|||
:::Well I think we really need a better source than effectively "HS2 told me". Can we find a reliable source online anywhere that says 600 demolished? [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 12:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Department for Transport information not good enough for you? This page is clearly not interested in facts. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.157.131.197|86.157.131.197]] ([[User talk:86.157.131.197|talk]]) 13:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:Is the figure of 600 houses on the DfT website anywhere then? [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 13:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Here is another link to the same fact. http://www.london-property-market.co.uk/index.php/construction/impact-high-speed-2-london-property/ |
|||
:Not convinced this is a source that would meet [[WP:RS]]. However, having trawled through the HS2 Ltd documents the report Appraisal of Sustainability, A Report for HS2 Non Technical Summary December 2009 (see Comunity Aspects p.16) available on the DfT website [http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/appraisalofsustainability/pdf/summary.pdf here] provides a possible source for both 400 or 600 that has been debated here as either ''houses demolished'' or ''houses affected'' depending on how it is interpreted. Not sure if this is a primary or secondary source as on the one hand it is clearly based on a more technical report elsewhere though not sure if this is in the public domain. It may also have been superceeded so I will leave the debate on relevance to others to decide but hope this helps [[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 15:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::<em>"This page is clearly not interested in facts."</em><br /> |
|||
::Unless Mr Khan's letter is publicly readable (e.g. at Whatdotheyknow), it's not referencable, and london-property-market is a poor source.<br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 22:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Why is a property website a poor source for property information? 600 properties was the number given verbally in March by a minister for the Dept for Transport (Hansard link has been deleted by someone. Why?) 600 is also the figure given in a Freedom of Information response by HS2 Ltd. Why do you insist on using another figure just because it was in the Daily Telegraph? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.157.131.197|86.157.131.197]] ([[User talk:86.157.131.197|talk]]) 15:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:Why do you insist on using this 600 figure when the property website is a somewhat questionable source, it looks almost like a blog, and the comments in Hansard don't refer to demolition? The 440 figure doesn't just come from the Telegraph, HS2 themselves have stated it [http://hs2.org.uk/assets/x/77178 here] earlier this month which suggests it was in the HS2 report. They also say in that response that since the report in March, "further work has been carried out to refine the route in order to reduce its impact", which likely means that rather the number of houses to be demolished being "around 600", it is probably actually less than their original figure of 440. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 15:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Removal of well-sourced and accurate material by User: Adambro == |
|||
User: Adambro has removed well sourced and relevant material, on the grounds of it amounts to synthesis. |
|||
The removed material is encyclopedic. <br /> |
|||
And of better quality than many other parts of the page, which are taken from primary sources - including the HS2 forecasts themselves. <br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 21:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Have you considered [[WP:SYNTH]], the section of [[Wikipedia:No original research]] I highlighted? This seems a perfect example of what isn't appropriate. It says "do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". That is exactly what you are doing here by reference to the East Coast franchise and the rest. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 22:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::The estimates for future use are from a primary source, and need to be tempered accordingly. How many people would would use HS2 is unknown, and unknowable, and to present conjecture from primary sources in an encyclopedia article, without tempering, is silly. |
|||
::As is removing "insignificant" opposing organisations, while inserting apparently one-man outfits, such as Yes To HS2, in the supporting organisations sections. These sections should have been nuked. |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::You may consider Yes To HS2 a one-man outfit but in reality most of the campaign groups both for and against are managed by a single or couple of individuals and gain support and momentum as their publicity increases. I also believe that groups which operate a restricted membership (such as the Facebook group "Save the Chilterns - Say NO to a High Speed Rail Link!") should not be included which is why I removed it a while ago (I am currently blocked from accessing this group because I politely corrected a few assumptions and false information that was posted on that page and the groups Administrator and Co-ordinator are unresponsive on the matter) --[[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 10:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::<em>"a few assumptions and false information"</em><br /> |
|||
::::"False information" is manifestly what Yes to HS2 is peddling:<br /> |
|||
::::"In my opinion and the opinion of rail experts the WCML is already close to if not at full capacity" (posted 12 November 2010 at [http://www.yestohs2.co.uk Yes To HS2]) |
|||
::::Maybe User:Chow32 will explain how this squares with Figure 5 in <br /> |
|||
::::http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/infrastructure/pdf/hs2.pdf<br /> |
|||
::::Etc. |
|||
::::So, Yes to HS2 is not a reliable or notable source; it's an opinion, rather than analytical, site.<br /> |
|||
::::Yet it has both a listing in the supporting organisations, and external links.<br /> |
|||
::::<em>"in reality most of the campaign groups both for and against are managed by a single or couple of individuals and gain support and momentum as their publicity increases"</em><br /> |
|||
::::That may, or may not, be the case. But people are having a consistency blind spot, removing opposing organisations because they're "insignificant", and inserting a 1-man opinion website or lobbying company under supporting organisations. |
|||
::::Speaking of, nice to see [http://www.greengauge21.net/contact Greengauge 21] at last finally trying to comply with the Business Names Act. They must be reading Wikipedia talk pages. In which case, Jim, please publish details of who's bankrolling Greengauge 21, and how much money is it getting from public sector bodies.<br /> |
|||
::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::So you are claiming that Yes to HS2 is not a reliable source or a notable source? I have read many of the No to HS2 websites and they are more than full of subjective and emotive claims which are made with the intention of pushing their adgenda with no considerations for facts. For example: http://www.stophs2.org has an article that virtually claims that HS2 will increase flooding in Britain and calling HS2 a "concrete bomb". I fail to see where those "facts" are mitigated via non sensationalist and non biased sources? At least Yes to HS2 attempts to get facts from valid sources --[[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 12:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::If you want to protest about Greengauge 21 then you're in the wrong place. I'm still yet to hear a compelling argument as to why this article should violate [[WP:SYNTH]]. As it stands the article is in clear violation of that part of the [[Wikipedia:No original research]] policy. Again, it says "do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". That is exactly what you are doing here. None of the sources say the HS2 forecasts must be inaccurate but you are combining sources together to imply they must be. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 21:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::::I've already hinted at the problems which will follow from trying to apply [[WP:SYNTH]] without common sense.<br /> |
|||
::::::Here's another example. <br /> |
|||
::::::Take the issue of number of houses which might be demolished (which has already cropped up here). Suppose a couple of 3rd party websites had data about the width of high speed rail formations elsewhere (e.g. on particular Neubaustrecke, or LGVs). |
|||
::::::Then, even if similar or identical rolling stock were used on those lines as might run on HS2 (and there was the same loading gauge and track speed) - application of [[WP:SYNTH]] would apparently preclude this material being referenced. Which is bizarre. |
|||
::::::Now back to the demand forecast. |
|||
::::::Consider <br /> |
|||
::::::<em>Accurately forecasting transport demand to 2026 presents sizeable problems, with predictions over much shorter periods proving disastrously incorrect. <span style="text-decoration:line-through;color:gray">For example, optimistic projections for the [[East Coast Main Line]] led [[National Express]] to default on its 2007-2015 East Coast franchise in 2009,<ref>{{cite news|publisher=Daily Telegraph|title=National Express's decision to quit East Coast franchise is a lose-lose for nearly everyone |
|||
|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/5741855/National-Expresss-decision-to-quit-East-Coast-franchise-is-a-lose-lose-for-nearly-everyone.html|author=Alistair Osborne|date=2009-07-04}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url= |
|||
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8127851.stm|publisher=BBC|title= |
|||
East Coast rail to be state-run|date=2009-07-01}}</ref> and British Rail, SNCF, London and Continental Railways, and Booz Allen Hamilton overestimated demand for high speed rail between London, Paris, and Brussels.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmpubacc/727/72705.htm|title=Select Committee on Public Accounts Thirty-Eighth Report|publisher=www.parliament.gov.uk}}</ref></span> A large study of transport projects found that in nine out of ten rail schemes, passenger forecasts were overestimated, with the mean overestimation being 106%.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://flyvbjerg.plan.aau.dk/Traffic91PRINTJAPA.pdf|title=How (In)accurate Are Demand Forecasts in Public Works Projects?|author=Bent Flyvbjerg, Mette K. Skamris Holm, and Søren L. Buhl|publisher=Journal of the American Planning Association}}</ref> </em> |
|||
::::::A synthesis involves combining A, B (...) to create or demonstrate X, where X is different. But in the forecast paragraph, the presence of B, C, etc (grayed out in the version above) isn't pivotal to the sense of the paragraph. The presence of B and C is informational only, so there isn't synthesis.<br /> |
|||
::::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 22:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::If it helps, let me clarify why I says this is in clear violation of [[WP:SYNTH]]. We have reliable sources which provide forecasts (A). We also have reliable sources which suggest forecasts are probably inaccurate (B). What we don't have it seems is a reliable source which says the forecasts mentioned here are probably inaccurate (C). You are combining A and B to reach your conclusion C but we don't have a reliable source that has published the same argument in relation to this topic. Hence why this violates [[WP:SYNTH]]. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 23:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::::The number of sources = 1. Which obviously isn't multiple. So the synthesis definition fails immediately. <br /> |
|||
::::::The paper used statistical analysis on railway projects in general. HS2 is a member of the class, it doesn't have to be mentioned by name. <br /> |
|||
::::::And there is no 'implication' that the HS2 forecasts 'must be' inaccurate. <br /> |
|||
::::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 01:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::There isn't one source being used here. There are multiple sources. We have the forecasts from one source and other sources which say transport forecasts are often inaccurate and examples relating to ECML. None of the sources support what you are trying to imply, that the HS2 forecasts must be inaccurate because similar forecasts often are. Per [[WP:SYN]]: "A and B, therefore C is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article". The topic of the article is a specific transport project, not transport projects in general. None of the sources make the argument that HS2 forecasts are probably inaccurate so combining sources together to suggest this is synthesis. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 11:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::::<em>"There isn't one source being used here. There are multiple sources."</em><br /> |
|||
::::::Nothing is being synthesised with Flyvbjerg, Skamris Holm, and Buhl, which is one source.<br /> |
|||
::::::<em>"The topic of the article is a specific transport project"</em><br /> |
|||
::::::"Specific" as in: precise, explicit, particular, or definite?<br /> |
|||
::::::I think not. HS2 planning has encompassed various schemes, including new line (Y- and S-shaped, etc) as well as reconfiguration of existing lines (Rail Package 2, etc). |
|||
::::::'Maximal' HS2 is intended to include Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leeds, and the East Midlands. <br /> |
|||
::::::All of which are served by the ECML. <br /> |
|||
::::::So the inaccuracy of ECML demand forecasting is pertinent to this article. <br /> |
|||
::::::But it's freestanding, and as such, its inclusion does not extend, or transform, the meaning of Flyvbjerg, Skamris Holm, and Buhl.<br /> |
|||
::::::<em>"We have reliable sources which provide forecasts (A)."</em> |
|||
::::::This is a little dubious, if the 'source<span style="text-decoration:line-through;color:gray">s</span>' providing forecasts on HS2, is HS2. Wikipedia's discussion of reliable sources skirts around the issue of what 'reliable' means, but there's certainly acknowledgment of problems of dependence on primary sources [[Wikipedia:SPS#Self-published_or_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves|etc]].<br /> |
|||
::::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 21:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
== Use of synthesis arguments == |
|||
User: Adambro's use of synthesis arguments flies in the face of common sense and produces laughable results when applied to carbon dioxide.<br /> |
|||
The figures used for carbon emissions in HS2 'research', and those used elsewhere by DfT, are different.<br /> |
|||
This means that the same train would produce lower emissions on HS2, than it would on other lines. |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 22:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
* Adambro is precisely right, you are precisely wrong. This is almost certainly a reflection of the fact that he is greatly more experienced on Wikipedia than you are. You would be better off asking for his advice rather than arguing with him. Any other questions? <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 11:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::Number of saves under a particular name, or seniority, is an indicator, or predictor, of someone's writing or editing ability(?) <br /> |
|||
::I think my contributions improved a not-very-good article, but comments, including snide ones, are welcome. <br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 22:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==removal== |
|||
[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=400676206&oldid=400653086 diff] |
|||
<small> |
|||
<nowiki>The [[return on investment]] was estimated by Network Rail at 1.6 times over a period of 60 years, without including the cost of capital.<ref name="networkrail.co.uk"/><!-- is this the network rail project or the hs2 ltd project, and what exactly is return on investment? --></nowiki> |
|||
</small> |
|||
This figure is for a different route scheme, with multiple spurs. |
|||
also |
|||
<small> |
|||
<nowiki>===Cost=== |
|||
The overall cost for the lines to Edinburgh, Liverpool and Glasgow, including rolling stock, was estimated at £20.5 [[1000000000_(number)|billion]]<ref name="networkrail.co.uk">http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/About%20us/New%20Lines%20Programme/5886_NewLineStudy_synopsis.pdf</ref> - £34 billion, factoring in a 66% allowance for cost overrun. This does not include a link to HS1. |
|||
</nowiki> |
|||
</small> |
|||
This is the same - the figures refer to an unbuilt network rail scheme, not the actual plan. There is no mention of a 25billion figure either. |
|||
The info is completely out of context - does not relate to any current, or previous official plan. Thanks.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 15:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Loading gauge== |
|||
There's no such thing as "European loading gauge". Now, or in the past. |
|||
"<em>After Aylesbury, the line would run alongside the Aylesbury line, joining it north of Quainton Road and then broadly following the direction of the dismantled Great Central Main Line (whose trackbed is still very largely intact and which was built to a continental loading gauge, but whose curvature is said to be too great for very high-speed trains)</em>" |
|||
I'm none the wiser after the citations were added. |
|||
What "continental loading gauge" was the GCML built to? |
|||
What is the GCML curvature, and what does "very high-speed trains" mean? |
|||
As "disastrous" means "ruinous; very unfortunate", the word seems reasonable to describe the consequences of bad demand estimation. Look at the fallout from NXEC on National Express Group (etc). <br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:15, 6 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:It is rather disheartening to have spent quite some time finding the references YOU requested and then discover that you have deleted them. |
|||
:There are several different continental loading gauges (that's why the text said "a" continental loading gauge, not "the" continental loading gauge), but what they all have in common is that they are bigger than any British loading gauge. The Great Central was built to such a loading gauge because it was originally intended to carry continental traffic to and from a Channel Tunnel that in the event didn't get built until 90 years later. The GC is often described as "Berne gauge" but it isn't because Berne gauge hadn't been invented then. See [[Great Central Main Line#Construction of the line]]. |
|||
:Curves on the GC have a minimum radius of 1 mile. It was built for high speed in the terms of the 1900s. Railnews (in the reference that I cited but which you have now removed) alleges that this isn't straight enough for "very" high-speed trains, by which is obviously meant those planned for HS2; I find this a bit surprising because it looks pretty straight to me on the map, and I assume it would be quite straight enough for ordinary high-speed trains of the order of 125mph. The fact remains that the present HS2 plan proposes to use the GC trackbed as a basis, but only for about 12 miles, from around Quainton Road to somewhere approaching Brackley. |
|||
:I changed "disastrously incorrect" to just "incorrect" because I thought "disastrously" sounds a bit POV and non-encyclopaedic. It must be a subjective matter of opinion just how disastrous any given incorrect forecast is. Also, as currently worded it rather gives the impression that pretty well all transport demand forecasts are hopelessly over-optimistic. In fact there are also some that have proved wildly wrong in the other direction, and where capacity has had to be added later at greater cost than if it had been included in the first place, such as the M25 motorway and the Docklands Light Railway. There is also the example of SNCF's Paris-Lyon LGV, which within I think about 20 years was operating at capacity with no sign of traffic growth slackening, a situation now resolved partly by expensively redoing all the signalling and partly by introducing double-deck trains. |
|||
: -- [[User:Alarics|Alarics]] ([[User talk:Alarics|talk]]) 23:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::I too agree about the word "disastrously", it's not appropriate and is definitely a POV. Even if it was quoted in a reference, the word should be contained in quotes in the article. Seems like the one man mission continues.... --[[User:Geezertronic|Geezertronic]] ([[User talk:Geezertronic|talk]]) 13:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::"<em>It is rather disheartening to have spent quite some time finding the references YOU requested</em>"<br /> |
|||
:::It's good to see someone looking for references. But are these the best that can be found? It's likely that the GCML is better engineered than earlier lines. But the references don't state the loading gauge that the GCML was built to, or the curvature. |
|||
:::While putting attribution into the page, and flagging belly button fluff (such as estimates, from a different scheme, appearing as the HS2 cost) I noticed a lot of disheartening activity. There's Mr H S Sockpuppet on the one hand, and someone who keeps changing the Green Party's (stated) support for high speed rail into neutrality, on the other. <br /> |
|||
:::"<em>Also, as currently worded it rather gives the impression that pretty well all transport demand forecasts are hopelessly over-optimistic.</em>"<br /> |
|||
:::It said "in nine out of ten <em>rail</em> schemes, passenger forecasts were overestimated, with the mean overestimation being 106%." There was a different spread for road projects. PSE was over- (number of TGV sets) and under-dimensioned (signalling). Both under- and overdimensioning can have significant consequences. Is "significant" more acceptable than "disastrous"?<br /> |
|||
:::It's fair to say that phraseology such as "curvature is said to be too great for very high-speed trains" would be better off replaced — if possible — by numbers and attribution.<br /> |
|||
:::If the design radius on GCML were verifiable as 1 mile (1609 metres), that would be an interesting addition. <br /> |
|||
:::Especially if data such as [[Minimum_railway_curve_radius#High-speed_rail|minimum high speed rail curvature]] turned out to be accurate. <br /> |
|||
:::It would mean that the face of the Chilterns was being disfigured, courtesy of HS2 Limited and Greengauge 21, when there was a ready made route, reusable for 200+ km/h, already in existence. (Leaving aside the Marylebone/Paddington - High Wycombe - Banbury - Birmingham line, which runs well under capacity.) |
|||
:::"The GC is often described as 'Berne gauge' but it isn't because Berne gauge hadn't been invented then."<br /> |
|||
:::If the 'Berne gauge' claim appears in print, under Wikipedia's "verifiability, not truth" mantra, it could end up referenced as fact, even though it's unlikely to be true. In the real world, loading gauge is important for freight (containers, etc) and more or less irrelevant for passenger traffic. And HS2 is primarily promoted as a passenger line.<br /> |
|||
:::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 21:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::::Some of the world's most popular high speed rolling stock is substantially larger than the UK's loading gauge. In what way is that irrelevant? Plus, of course, there should be the option of using the line for more than one type of traffic. It would be silly to establish a loading gauge with no futureproofing or flexibility whatsoever. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 21:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::::Future proofing? What's that? Should the line be built for double stack containers then? Or how about curve radii for 500 km/h?<br /> |
|||
:::::<em>"It would be silly to establish a loading gauge."</em> |
|||
:::::There is already is a de facto established loading gauge in Britain. But's nothing like that proposed for HS2. |
|||
:::::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 23:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
@haskanik Re:"In the real world, loading gauge is important for freight (containers, etc) and more or less irrelevant for passenger traffic. And HS2 is primarily promoted as a passenger line" this is incorrect - Loading gauge is also important for high speed passenger services, the european GC gauge allows use of double deck (duplex) trains which offer significantly greater passenger capacity, even if double deck trains aren't used fom day 1 it allows for future growth without hugely expensive bridge & tunnel rebuilds.[[User:Brianthegiant|Brianthegiant]] ([[User talk:Brianthegiant|talk]]) 20:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:User:Brianthegiant's contributions have, so far, provided minimal insight. Over at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Greengauge_21&oldid=397162583 Greengauge 21] article, created by Brianthegiant, there's the ongoing copyvio and balance issues. |
|||
:As for the HS2 article<br /> |
|||
:"<em>And HS2 is primarily promoted as a passenger line' this is incorrect</em>" <br /> |
|||
:Of course it's primarily promoted as a passenger line.<br /> |
|||
:"<em>Loading gauge is also important for high speed passenger services</em>"<br /> |
|||
:No, it's more or less irrelevant. <br /> |
|||
:<em>"even if double deck trains aren't used fom day 1 it allows for future growth without hugely expensive bridge & tunnel rebuilds</em>"<br /> |
|||
:It replaces hugely expensive bridge & tunnel rebuilds, with hugely expensive bridge & tunnel new builds.<br /> |
|||
:http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403204470&oldid=403199793<br /> |
|||
:"The current [[Eurostar]] stock ([[British Rail Class 373]]) is an example of a high speed train which is compatible with Continental signalling systems and the British Loading Gauge" |
|||
:Class 373 trains are <em>signalling-incompatible</em> with the overwhelming majority of the European railway network, and with the majority of the European high speed railway network. |
|||
:As previously stated <em>ad nauseum</em>, there's no such thing as British loading gauge. Routes have had to be made compatible for Class 373 trains on an individual basis. The cost of doing this is not trivial, and of course, not necessarily limited to gauge clearance.<br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Debeautification== |
|||
<em>"debeautification", is that even a word? clarify what is meant by "one of England's most beautiful regions"</em> |
|||
Well, beautification even has its own [[Beautification|Wikipedia entry]]. So it's just the <em>existence of its opposite</em> that's disputed? <br /> |
|||
http://www.macmillandictionaries.com/med-magazine/July2003/09-Feature-creating-new-words.htm<br /> |
|||
http://vodpod.com/watch/4024086-the-debeautification-of-america-anthony-marr<br /> |
|||
Etc. |
|||
"<em>you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are both directly related to the topic of the article...". sources cited deal with the issue of High Speed Rail etc in general, not HS2</em>" |
|||
What's meant by "<em>directly related</em>"? The HS2 subject encompasses various projects, alignments, and alternatives (such as Rail Package 2). As far as Britain is concerned, discussion of HS2 is effectively discussion of high speed rail - there's no HS3 or HS4 being discussed. |
|||
This <span style='color:green'>reality</span> is already reflected in the article: |
|||
"<em>A number of organisations support the HS2 project <span style='color:green'>or the development of a high-speed rail network in the UK more generally</span>. These include Greengauge 21 (a lobbying company), Railfuture (a pro-rail campaigning group), and HSR:UK (a group of Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, and Sheffield city councils).</em>" |
|||
I can't see a reference to Cardiff council 'directly' supporting HS2, but they're still in the article. Etc.<br /> |
|||
"<em>The visual impact of HS2 has received particular attention in the Chilterns which is designated an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.</em>" |
|||
Stylistically, this isn't an improvement on the previous version. But I can't be bothered changing it back. <br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:On your final point, I didn't think it was clear what was meant by "one of England's most beautiful regions". Describing it as an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty shows that the region is designated by the government to have significant landscape value rather than just a descrption from a single newspaper. |
|||
:On debeautification, you are probably right to suggest that the word is properly constructed. I still don't think it is appropriate for the section title though as it seems unnecessary to "visual impact" which is a more neutral term. |
|||
:As for the life cycle section which you have reinstated, I still suggest this violates [[WP:NOR]]. You have read the HS2 report, reached the conclusion that it "does not detail HS2 energy and emissions over the life cycle" and also that "the topic has received limited attention in Britain". Where is the reliable source for that? You've inserted your own conclusion about the HS2 report and the attention the topic has received in Britain. Is there a reliable published source that "directly support the material as presented"? As [[WP:NOR]] states, "Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research". I think it is quite a different situation here where you are drawing your own conclusions about the HS2 report etc and then using those conclusions to justify mentioning some other research to seemingly suggest the HS2 report is inadequate is quite different to simply mentioning that an organisation supports either HS2 specifically or HSR more generally in the UK. |
|||
:Whilst your argument that "discussion of HS2 is effectively discussion of high speed rail" has some merit, it still wouldn't deal with the other problem with the content you added relating to how you've reach conclusions not directly supported by a reliable source. [[User:Adambro|Adambro]] ([[User talk:Adambro|talk]]) 09:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::I'm not drawing conclusions. <br /> |
|||
::I didn't do the research.<br /> |
|||
::The source is as reliable as any other in the article. |
|||
::And its usefulness isn't related to whether it mentions HS2 or not. |
|||
::For example |
|||
::http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.imeche.org/Libraries/Position_Statements-Transport/HighSpeedRailIMechEPolicy.sflb.ashx&ei=KAURTfc8x4HhBs2VqYYC&sa=X&ct=targetlink&ust=1292962864010397&usg=AFQjCNFeLns5td_HrstPyKwiN8FRAtGSIA |
|||
::states that a train going at 300km/h uses more than twice the energy of one going at 200 km/h. Like Chester's paper, the fact that it doesn't mention HS2 doesn't make the reference inadmissible. |
|||
::Unlike Eurostar structure gauge, the laws of physics don't have to be cleared on a line by line basis.<br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==A number of changes - mostly minor== |
|||
Below a number of point arising from the dozens of edits made see [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403126220&oldid=402840853 all the edit differences combined] |
|||
===External links - some removals=== |
|||
*http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/hs2 (Warwickshire council's info) |
|||
*[http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/58620/ Umapper map of proposed route with KML description] |
|||
The warwickshire.gov link mostly linked to the already present dft website - seemed of little use. |
|||
The umapper link isn't clear on source - which version of the route does it refer to - also only really duplicates the other maps?? |
|||
[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 22:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===Copy-paste=== |
|||
[[File:2 By 4 Clue Stick.jpg|thumb|get an education! see [[WP:TROUT]] and [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cluebat cluebat ] ]] |
|||
Some of the sections make heavy use of copy-paste additions to write the article. To clarify - this is not right. See [[Wikipedia:Copy-paste]]. In general please write in your own words. Quotations should only be used where the actual thing that has been said is important, and not when only the general meaning of what is said is what is being presented. |
|||
I will attempt to fix it. But. I will be removing any similar additions on sight in future. Writing articles by joining to together stuff from external sources is not a good way to proceed, and if excessive is sufficient to be a cause for deletion, please don't do it. Thanks/[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 23:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Also does anyone want to admit to doing this, or know who's been adding all this quoted stuff - I need to "tell them off"..[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 23:18, 18 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===references=== |
|||
Some (a lot) of the primary references are messed up - the page numbers don't match (I think the pdfs have changed), also this http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/hs2report/ links to different parts by chapter.. (These are the references linked to from the notes section) |
|||
It would be better to link by chapter/section/subsection, as that wont change. eg like this [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403106515&oldid=403105354 diff] the chapter lets the right pdf be picked easily, and the section helps the text be found without any page number problems. If somone fixes this please have a gold star..[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 01:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===more references council opposition (opposition section)=== |
|||
Citations needed [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403113944&oldid=403113752 diff] and this reference removed |
|||
<nowiki><ref>{{cite news | url = http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/8719453.HS2__will_go_through_Chilterns_/ | newspaper = Bucks Free Press | first = Andy | last = Carswell | date = 3 December 2010 | title = High Speed 2 line "will go through Chiltern AONB" | location = High Wycombe }}</ref><!-- ref doesn't mention councils by name -->.</nowiki> |
|||
Note - if the references don't do it just tag, remove, or fix it.. We can't see the hidden comments very easily - not sure if the removed reference should go back in with more text? [[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 02:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===reference needed please help (carbon emmissions section)=== |
|||
removed this |
|||
<blockquote><nowiki>The Department for Transport's ''Delivering a sustainable railway'' stated, "Increasing the maximum speed from 200km/h to 350km/h leads to a 90% increase in energy consumption. In exchange, it cuts station-to-station journey times by less than 25% and door-to-door journey times by even less."<ref>{{cite journal|publisher=Department for Transport|title=Delivering a sustainable railway|date=July 2007|page=62}}</ref></nowiki></blockquote> |
|||
Found the report eg http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/whitepapercm7176/ , but can't find page 62 , or the statement. Can someone else find it?[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 03:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Yes. The quote is correct and it is section 6.14 on page 62. The document has been moved by DfT so new link is http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strategy/whitepapers/whitepapercm7176/hitepapersustainablerailway1.pdf <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.153.116.197|86.153.116.197]] ([[User talk:86.153.116.197|talk]]) 11:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
::And so you put it back in, complete with the copy edit unchanged - idiot. Try writing the article in your own words, as hinted at above in the section "copy-paste". I've removed it - and frankly I'd like to see a reliable secondary source for such claimsm not a pov pushing primary source.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 15:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::I've just been told off for calling you an idiot. Sorry. Thanks for your other contributions anyway, such as the references. But please no copy-pastes in the article.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 16:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Why do you need a secondary source? The reference was to a Dept for Transport White Paper. A secondary source would very likely be inferior? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.153.116.197|86.153.116.197]] ([[User talk:86.153.116.197|talk]]) 10:52, 20 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
::Because the primary sources may be promoting a particular point of view (not the case with clear cut data such as maps) - and may not be considered to be accurate in the data they present - that's why secondary sources from reliable experts are needed to confirm, deny, or comment on the case the DfT is making. |
|||
::I don't mean a news report repeating the same info, but a proper independant analysis of whether or not high speed rail in the UK is a good idea. (I agree that a secondary source that just re-reports what the DfT is not as good). [[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 12:42, 20 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===Reliable secondary sources=== |
|||
Having gone through the article I've come to totally agree with [[User:Haskanik]] see [[Talk:High_Speed_2#remeoved_ref-improve_tag_but]] that the article needs to be referenced with reliable third party references. I accept that the primary references are useful, but in places the primary references and the arguments therein just look like justification for the line, and cannot be considered to be truly measured or balanced - I say this after having read a lot of them. - the fundamental issue is that they are selective so that they can present a positive case for HS2.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 04:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
: A interesting article, possilbe reliable seconday source, and one of twol articles today from [[Andrew Gilligan]] and Patrick Hennessy in the Daily Telegraph about the HS2 business case, with good references to the HS2 Ltd primary sources [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/8213277/Is-this-another-high-speed-train-crash.html here]. Needs to be balanced by another source putting the other point of view. [[User:Tmol42|Tmol42]] ([[User talk:Tmol42|talk]]) 23:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::Please add if possible, if you are willing to do that (could use the "opposition" section) - note that the other point of view already exists - it is the DfT documents. I'm not sure about the claim that "''none of the carbon calculations, incidentally, include the CO2 cost of constructing the line, which would add a substantial environmental burden.''" since I've seen DfT reports that do included construction carbon. The criticism loss of other services, and the placement of the Birmingham station, as well as the criticism of viabilty based on passsenger growth do seem to be entirely valid points though.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:06, 20 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::(it should be noted that the primary case for the line has always rested on the assumption that extra capacity would be needed, and not on any green credentials - I think the original Adonis document makes that clear, and the rational has not changed. I don't remember any claims that it would reduce co2, though there was some spin about "high speed rail being part of britains low carbon future" etc etc - probably the telegraph has got ahead of itself slightly on that one.)[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===route template=== |
|||
{{High Speed 2 RDT}} |
|||
removed the template (see right), template doesn't include the Y route, and in my opinion is superfluous since we have fairly good proper maps with the route on the in article. |
|||
Either way, the latest route is soon to be announced, so maybe it's best to wait and see. Again: personally I don't think the route diagrams work very well in terms of easy of reading, compared to a proper map (which we have).[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 04:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
===final comment - regarding talk page discussions=== |
|||
I've tried to understand some of the older discussions above, but the main problem is the total absence of links to edit differences - so all I can see is "you removed x", and then some discussion. For third parties - who might help, or be able to edit the removed part to everyones satisfaction it's not much use - since for anyone but the two (or more) people discussion it's very difficult to find out exactly what they were talking about... |
|||
eg [[Talk:High_Speed_2#Removal_of_well-sourced_and_accurate_material_by_User:_Adambro]], [[Talk:High_Speed_2#List_of_Opposing_Organisations_and_Groups]] |
|||
In the future please try to include diffs. Thanks.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 04:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Carbon and energy== |
|||
The paragraph on <em>Delivering a Sustainable Railway</em> at <br /> |
|||
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&oldid=402777647<br /> |
|||
was instructive, in view of the subsequent government volte face. The trainspotter-friendly rewording at<br /> |
|||
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&oldid=403381573<br /> dispensed with the quote, in favour of: |
|||
"The Government White Paper Delivering a Sustainable Railway states trains that travel at a speed of 350 km/h uses 90 per cent more energy than at 200 km/h; which results in carbon emissions for a London to Edinburgh journey of 14kg per passenger for high speed rail compared to 7kg per passenger for conventional rail, air travel uses 26kg per passenger for the same journey. The paper questioned the value for money of high speed rail as a method of reducing carbon emissions, but noted that with a switch to carbon free or neutral energy production the case becomes much more favourable." |
|||
I don't mind this type of kilogram comparison, even if a contributor calculates it; after all, the inter-capital distance isn't in dispute. Rather, the problems are things like the pretence about assumed load factors, the assumed speed (HS2 "350 km/hr"), and the ignored twin elephants in the corner: construction carbon, and maintenance carbon. Traction energy required is approximately a function of the square of the speed, but not surprisingly, that's gone "missing" too.<br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Not sure what your point is here - the data is from the reference, not calculated by an editor, and the newer and current revision contains more information. Whilst the old version just direct copy pastes from the document with out good cause - which is "pseudo plagiarism" (especially when carried out on the scale it was in the article before) and breach of copyright.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::The revision contains less information. And there's no plagiarism in short attributed quotes. If there were, newspapers would be sued on a daily basis.<br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::We are not a newspaper, this is an encyclopedia. Please recognise that having a good proportion of an article written using quotes directly pulled from other sources is not acceptable in <u>any</u> serious written document. see also [[Wikipedia:Copy-paste]] - quotes are good for things that should be quoted - like important statements, poetry, song lyrics etc, not to construct the body of the article. [[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 21:56, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::What information that was removed is it that you would like there to be in the article.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 21:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Rail capacity== |
|||
A tenet of HS2 is that the West Coast Main Line is approaching full capacity, and that lines to London from the Midlands would be full in a few years' time.<br /> |
|||
So excising information about capacity, such as at: |
|||
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&diff=next&oldid=403120124 |
|||
is extremely unhelpful.<br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:You mean this removal |
|||
<blockquote><nowiki>This meant the DfT was predicting strong growth, since its report showed the WCML Rugby - Euston section as operating at only 61% and 80% of capacity in the 2008/2009 morning peak<ref name="percentcapacity20082009">{{cite journal |url=http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/infrastructure/pdf/hs2.pdf |title=Figure 5: Loading levels in the 3-hour morning peak period, 2008/09 |page=14}}</ref> with Rugby - Birmingham being in the 41-60% band. The Great Western Chiltern route between Birmingham and London was also shown as being used as 41 to 60% of capacity, with the Leamington - Aynho section being in the 'below 41%' category.<ref name="percentcapacity20082009" /> The same document's forecast for 2024-2025 was for continued unused capacity on the Great Western Chiltern route.<ref name="percentcapacityforecast20242025">{{cite journal |url=http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/infrastructure/pdf/hs2.pdf |title=Figure 6: Loading levels in the 3-hour morning peak period, 2024/25 |page=15}}</ref></nowiki></blockquote> |
|||
Yes they are predicting growth (over a 15 year period) - links expanding on their growth prediction would be more useful than a statement of current usuage. Also not that it is only the rugby to euston data that appears to be relevant in this case - extending the discussion onto other routes is helpful -- how? Is an alternative argument being formed here? (of sufficient capacity) ?If so.. please do it properly with reliable sources not synthesis. Thanks.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:"<em>it is only the rugby to euston data that appears to be relevant in this case - extending the discussion onto other routes is helpful -- how?</em>" |
|||
:Last time I looked, HS2 isn't going through Rugby. So the discussion is "already onto other routes".<br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Perhaps a footnote stating the current (2008/9) usage along with some info on the how the DfT is predicting growth would be more suitable.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 14:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Why relegate capacity to a footnote? <br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==New map== |
|||
Someone created a map claiming that LGV Nord, and the Channel Tunnel, are part of HS1. I'm afraid this isn't accurate. The article appears to be in a steep dive.<br /> |
|||
[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 00:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Can you provide a link for that.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_high_speed_rail_map.png<br /> |
|||
::Version 30 May 2010.<br /> |
|||
::[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:::Can you see the red and black, and the labels at the bottom of the map? If you are colour blind then maybe the map can be altered to a different method of presentation. I don't think you can object to a map that shows a vital connecting line in another colour?[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 21:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==eurostar loading gauge== |
|||
[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403449020&oldid=403445525 diff] compare the reference |
|||
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Infrastructure/Guidance%20Notes/GEGN8573%20Iss%201.pdf |
|||
First of all when adding a reference please provide a page, or section. Additionally please check your facts against the reference. No where in the document can I find a confirmation of the statement, which seems incorrect.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
:Second of all, when reverting a back to a sentence with no supporting reference at all, please provide a reference. <br /> |
|||
:[[User:Haskanik|Haskanik]] ([[User talk:Haskanik|talk]]) 20:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Stuff that needs re-adding== |
|||
Probably from the 21 decemeber philip hammond speach |
|||
<blockquote><s>Transport Secretary Philip Hammond stated on 20 December 2010 that only a traditional speed link would be created between HS2 and HS1, rather than a high-speed connection.</s> A UIC GC gauge-cleared "classic line" route would be created, leaving HS2 at Old Oak Common in additional tunnels and running via the North London Line, enlarged versions of the existing Primrose Hill Tunnels and through Camden railway station to the triangular junction at St Pancras</blockquote> |
|||
<blockquote><s>Transport Secretary Philip Hammond announced in Parliament that the first London-Birmingham phase of the project would have no direct link to Heathrow airport. Passengers would change at Old Oak Common. Hammond said a spur to Heathrow would be retrofitted in the mid 2030's and would open at the same time as the routes to Manchester and Leeds</s></blockquote> |
|||
and the bit about <s>"''backed the previous route laid out by the preceding government albeit with some modifications to the exact route. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12035524''"</s> |
|||
When referenced and the third bit rewritten.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 13:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
::I've readded most of this, without mentioning any of the specific changes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403539004&oldid=403536632 diff] |
|||
::I haven't found info about the link to HS1 yet.[[User:Sf5xeplus|Sf5xeplus]] ([[User talk:Sf5xeplus|talk]]) 15:32, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==Passenger forecasting problems== |
|||
This [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403571048&oldid=403569805] was removed, whilst I understand the stuff about WP:OR I don't think this is anything but a borderline case - specifically the document http://flyvbjerg.plan.aau.dk/Traffic91PRINTJAPA.pdf seems particularily straight forward; I've added that with a reference that directly relates to HS2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=High_Speed_2&action=historysubmit&diff=403599963&oldid=403599156 diff , also had to remove some crazy stuff, same edit) |
|||
Please comment.[[Special:Contributions/83.100.225.242|83.100.225.242]] ([[User talk:83.100.225.242|talk]]) 21:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
Latest revision as of 00:14, 10 December 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the High Speed 2 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 3 months  |
 | High Speed 2 received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
 | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Network of services + the mayors' scheme
[edit]Can we drop the 'network' aspect of HS2 from the lead and elsewhere? It seems to have been abandoned by the HS2 website, at least. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I would see no problem with this, the name of the exact passenger services etc is unknown until they actually enter operation. I would however, as set out above, wish to retain the ongoing review in the lead as summary but then its full content further in the body as present. It remains relevant. The report yet to come by the Mayors in Summer 2024 should shine further light on the true extent but the provisional report basically says Phase 2 will be paid for by private investment from Handsacre to Manchester Airport to then join NPR which will then be paid for by public investment. UnicornSherbert (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC)(
Blocked sockpuppet)
- I've removed the references to the network from the lead; they can be reinstated if other editors disagree.
- I don't think an ongoing review or provisional report are significant enough to mention in the lead. If they lead to concrete plans to complete parts of phase 2 then that can be included in the lead, but as it stands we'd be giving undue significance to plans which may not come to fruition. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
They have come to fruition because the Mayors have reported on this and have outlined the plans. They have even provided a map, which arguably should be included into the article for HS2. This is notwithstanding that they have stated they intend to give the exact details in the Summer. The review should therefore be reinstated. UnicornSherbert (talk) 22:18, 13 April 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet)
- I don't think a map and good intentions are enough to make the plans firm enough to include in the lead, sorry. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Support removing services, as mentioned above, I doubted where it came from.
- Concerning private developments, that would depend if it is described as part of HS2, should it be developed. If it isn't, then it shouldn't be here (aside a minor link to another article) even if it covered the same route. DankJae 08:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Andy Burnham, addressing the board of Transport for the North, insisted that this proposal is not an attempt to revive HS2, saying "This is the son or daughter of HS2. It's not the same thing."[1]--TedColes (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
This has already all been discussed above. In any event, the Act for Phase 2a refers to such as HS2 and so does the Phase 2b Bill. This would not change. Andy Street also told the media that it is essentially the same route and how therefore could someone logically try to describe it as not HS2? HS2 is the route and it remains relevant. It is highly unlikely that the private investment would simply drop out of the consortium. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that, as Andy Burnham also told media, this part of the HS2 route would be privately financed. It really is as simple as that. UnicornSherbert (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet)@JMF @Wire723 you both have contributed above. Are you able to also join the conversation here? UnicornSherbert (talk) 12:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)- WP: CRYSTAL applies. As of today, it is still a wish list. When contracts have been placed, we can say what is confidently expected to happen. Not before. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Also, it should be noted the government have still be buying land and buildings etc along the Phase 2 route (i.e. the part which the Mayors are going to be paying for privately) notwithstanding that route has been cancelled by the government. UnicornSherbert (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet)
- It seems unlikely that the two Andys' scheme would be able to build track to the same standard that is needed for high speed running.--TedColes (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
I mean that would be stupid to believe because HS2 trains are unable to drive on conventional track which means it must be high speed rail to Manchester. UnicornSherbert (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet)
- They can but they can't go as fast as Pendolinos, they are too long for the platforms and they won't fit into Manchester station as is. But apart from that, there's:s no problem. Well, other than the lack of budget or any means to raise it, obviously.
- But when the mist clears in the crystal ball, all that will be solved. Right now though, we must stick to what is real. Ambitions can and should certainly be described but we cannot imply that they have any more status than that. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Says TGV finance model will be adopted... We will see what materialises but it has been made clear it would not be possible to run HS2 trains all the way to Manchester on the WCML mainly for safety reasons. and the government would not let them slow down the already most congested railway in the UK. There surely must be more to come. UnicornSherbert (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet)
- It seems unlikely that the two Andys' scheme would be able to build track to the same standard that is needed for high speed running.--TedColes (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- WP: CRYSTAL applies. As of today, it is still a wish list. When contracts have been placed, we can say what is confidently expected to happen. Not before. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Andy Burnham, addressing the board of Transport for the North, insisted that this proposal is not an attempt to revive HS2, saying "This is the son or daughter of HS2. It's not the same thing."[1]--TedColes (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think a map and good intentions are enough to make the plans firm enough to include in the lead, sorry. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
This discussion is beginning to drift into speculation and WP:NOTFORUM territory, so best we draw a line under it at this stage. We can report as fact that "very high speed" track is funded, contracted and under construction between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon St. Everything else is unfunded aspiration and may only be reported as such unless and until that status changes. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Timan, Joseph (20 March 2024). "New cheaper train line is best alternative to HS2, Andy Burnham's review concludes". Manchester Evening News. Retrieved 17 April 2024.
Crossed out text
[edit]Why is a lot of text crossed out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:4b00:bb18:a600:e738:4c0d:38f4:6829 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you're talking about the talk post above, see the user's history and WP:BE and WP:DENY. Also, I've noticed that you've made a few talk posts recently, please sign your talk posts and replies with four tildes at the end of each comment. It will produce a signature like this: Fork99 (talk) 02:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
King's speech 17/7/24
[edit]I reverted an IP edit that inferred far too much from the limited information we have to date. The Guardian merely says
High-speed rail (Crewe to Manchester) bill: An acknowledgement in law that Labour will not resurrect the Birmingham to Manchester leg of HS2, instead focusing on east to west links.
That's it. Nothing more. We have to wait for the first reading. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Modern Railways says this:
- Also in the King’s Speech was a commitment to repurpose the previous Conservative Government’s High Speed Rail (Crewe to Manchester) Bill to improve connectivity in the north of England. The Bill includes powers for infrastructure in Manchester and the surrounding area, including at Manchester Piccadilly and Airport stations, and the Government says carrying it over ‘demonstrates commitment to making progress on rail connectivity whilst we work with local leaders on improved overall strategy.’
- It does not mention HS2, so phase 2 of HS2 remains canncelled. The WCML, ECML, MML are all high speed lines, falling into the definition. The bill says 'High Sped Rail', also mentions infrastructure relating to rail. Infrastructure can be 125mph High Speed Rail, or anything above, but not the HS2 project. Very obvious. 143.58.172.236 (talk) 10:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- It does not say that the northern phase has been reactivated. This is WP:SYNTHESIS. Please wait until something clearer emerges. Cnbrb (talk) 11:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fully agree, thank you. 10mmsocket (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly! It does not say the northern phase of HS2 has been reactivated whatsoever. 143.58.246.185 (talk) 22:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- The principle is very simple. If the source says X, then we write X. We do not write X+Y+Z and cite that source as the basis for it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is what happened. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 13:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- ...so source it! 10mmsocket (talk) 15:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is what happened. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 13:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- The principle is very simple. If the source says X, then we write X. We do not write X+Y+Z and cite that source as the basis for it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- It does not say that the northern phase has been reactivated. This is WP:SYNTHESIS. Please wait until something clearer emerges. Cnbrb (talk) 11:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
In fact even the Grauniad seems to have embroidered the facts. The speech says nothing whatsoever about HS2. So we have no idea what definite plans HMG has. WP: NOTNEWS, wait and see. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- That seems prudent. 10mmsocket (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- +1 Cambial — foliar❧ 17:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
HS2 phase 2 is cancelled
[edit]Repeated and verifiable announcements by the previous and current governments have confirmed it is cancelled. Will the offending editors please accept this. Text in the article that the phase may be revived is inappropriate and just plain wishful thinking. The article does not need to be cluttered with irrelevant text. phase 2 is DEAD! Get used to it. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 13:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- As above - source it! 10mmsocket (talk) 15:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sources were given. You never read them. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 15:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Intro
[edit]This has been changed coming across as very amateurish. 143.58.172.212 (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- It looks beyond redemption. Progress and on (talk) 00:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Categories:
- Old requests for peer review
- B-Class rail transport articles
- High-importance rail transport articles
- B-Class UK Railways articles
- Top-importance UK Railways articles
- All WikiProject Trains pages
- B-Class United Kingdom articles
- Mid-importance United Kingdom articles
- WikiProject United Kingdom articles
- Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors