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[[Talk:2011 E. coli O104:H4 outbreak/Archives/2011/June]]


== Ban on Egyptian seeds ==
== Reference to E. coli strain being engineered ==


Hasn't the time come for an "Aftermath" section to start wrapping up this story? The blame-Egypt position is gaining more and more consensus, with an official EU [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/06/world/africa/06briefs-ecoli.html ban] on Egyptian seeds entering into effect yesterday. Right now, though, there's no place in the article where it would be logical to add a report on that development.—[[User:Biosketch|Biosketch]] ([[User talk:Biosketch|talk]]) 05:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
There are now references to the possibility of this outbreak being man-made in multiple third party sources e.g. [http://rt.com/usa/news/deadly-coli-strain-adams/], [http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/19-06-2011/118249-ecoli_outbreak-0/], [http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/06/04/51276894.html]. I recognise that this is likely to be highly controversial and therefore wanted to discuss the issue here rather than simply add a mention to the article, but in my view some mention of these reports should be made in this article. I am personally neutral as to which section the reference goes into. [[User:Rangoon11|Rangoon11]] ([[User talk:Rangoon11|talk]]) 16:09, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
*Unreliable sources written by people who don't understand evolution. Livestock are given antibiotics, and so it is ''inevitable'' that resistant strains will florish. [[User:Speciate|Speciate]] ([[User talk:Speciate|talk]]) 19:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
:: How are these sources unreliable? So far as I can see they all more than satisfy WP requirements.[[User:Rangoon11|Rangoon11]] ([[User talk:Rangoon11|talk]]) 20:01, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
:::Because they are crazy Russkies advancing a moronic position. Every time I see a news story by RT or Pravda I wonder what they have been smoking, especially when they stray outside of politics. [[User:Speciate|Speciate]] ([[User talk:Speciate|talk]]) 20:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
:::: That's your opinion and of course you're welcome to it but I don't see how it fits in with WP policy. [[User:Rangoon11|Rangoon11]] ([[User talk:Rangoon11|talk]]) 20:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


== NEJM articles ==
== Title change without discussion ==


The New England Journal of Medicine had 2 articles on this outbreak in the 25 August 2011 issue http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1106920 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1107643 probably the best report to date. I just read them through once, but I have to read them more carefully before I add them to the article.
An anonymous editor changed the display title [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=2011_German_E._coli_O104:H4_outbreak&diff=433984652&oldid=433921796 in this edit] without explanation. I found no prior discussion about this in the talk archives. Another editor subsequently moved the article to a name matching the display title, again without discussion.


This article now requires a complete rewrite, since we now have answers to a lot of the questions that were raised at the time, and a lot of the issues are no longer important.
Is there a consensus for the title ''2011 German E. coli O104:H4 outbreak'' ? I feel that title is clunky and the inclusion of "German" is unnecessary. Seeing as the change and move was without discussion I propose reverting back to the original name. I would prefer if in future such moves were done following the expected wikipedia processes. -[[User:84user|84user]] ([[User talk:84user|talk]]) 13:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


The important issues according to the NEJM articles include the unusual toxicity of the strain, and the novel molecular methods used to analyze it.
"German" in the title is incorrect and misleading as the strain has also caused an outbreak in France and will probably turn up in other countries. [[User:Skmacksler|Skmacksler]] ([[User talk:Skmacksler|talk]]) 15:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


I don't see the point of the long list of the "Affected countries". Can anyone give a reason for not deleting it? --[[User:Nbauman|Nbauman]] ([[User talk:Nbauman|talk]]) 00:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
==Requested move==
:I agree with Nbauman, the long list of "Affected countries" should be deleted. An accurate final tabulation of cases by country would suffice. --[[User:Zeamays|Zeamays]] ([[User talk:Zeamays|talk]]) 01:28, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
{{Requested move/dated|2011 E. coli O104:H4 outbreak}}


== Probably 800-1200 EHEC infections ==
[[2011 German E. coli O104:H4 outbreak]] → {{no redirect|1=2011 E. coli O104:H4 outbreak}} – My rationale is simply to return the name to what it was, and to undo a change made with no discussion. Editors can of course suggest other names for this article. [[User:84user|84user]] ([[User talk:84user|talk]]) 13:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
*I smiled when I saw the move. It seems to me that the Germans caused this outbreak through bad practices and stupidity, and are still unwilling to pay for the damage. Making a move without discussion is part of the [[WP:BRD]] credo. [[User:Speciate|Speciate]] ([[User talk:Speciate|talk]]) 19:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


Not E.coli infections. E.coli is responsible for app 80% of all UTIs and as such should probably be in the range of hundred thousands per year in germany though the source is very vague...
*"German" is incorrect--this strain has also caused an outbreak in France and it will probably turn up in other countries. If the source is Egyptian fenugreek seeds as tentatively reported[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13973002] then there is nothing particularly German about it. Germans just got it first. Just stick with the technical name without political baggage. [[User:Skmacksler|Skmacksler]] ([[User talk:Skmacksler|talk]]) 15:38, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
--[[User:Bjotn|Bjotn]] ([[User talk:Bjotn|talk]]) 21:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:*The source of the outbreak was not the seeds or the strain. The source was the failure of the German food safety system, which allowed a sprout farm to operate without proper controls. The scientists behind public health are fully aware of how dangerous sprouts are. [[User:Speciate|Speciate]] ([[User talk:Speciate|talk]]) 19:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
:*::According to the responsible authorities your claim about the farm is totally wrong. They stressed that the farm appeared to be operating to a very high standard, and that there was no indication that they are to blame. [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 22:08, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
:*:Do you have a reliable source for the disparaging statement that the farm in question operated without proper controls? &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 19:51, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
:*:Sprouts dangerous?, how about mad cows?, mrsa? campylobacteria in meat?, pesticides?, additives? get a perspective. And tracing contagious diseases is hard. There's also the choice between acting on what you know at present or wait until you are absolutely sure. And at the same time being assured many people dies in the process. [[User:Electron9|Electron9]] ([[User talk:Electron9|talk]]) 23:38, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
:::*Science is hard all over, but the German public health system is the one that made everything worse by pointing blame on cucumbers from the dirty Spaniards while failing to discover the real source for '''''months'''''. Billions of Euros in economic losses piled on top of the loss of life. You should be ashamed to be supporting these incompetent government officials. In any case, the outbreak is German, and [[User:84user]]'s claim that an outbreak in France is caused by the same strain means that there could be an [[2011 French E. coli O104:H4 outbreak]] article any day now. So having this title is completely appropriate. [[User:Speciate|Speciate]] ([[User talk:Speciate|talk]]) 00:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


== Cause? ==
== French outbreak and Swedish case ==
''"A farm in Bienenbuettel, Lower Saxony, was announced as the probable source"''.


I wonder what did they do different there at that farm? I have seen articles claiming that the outbreak appeared because the feces were spread on the land without transforming it into compost first.
There's a report about ~10 persons getting infected with 0104:H4 in France. And 1 person getting HUS? by infection in Sweden. Could someone dig into this? esp when, where, strain, effects.[[User:Electron9|Electron9]] ([[User talk:Electron9|talk]]) 01:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
But I recently discovered that with only 4 months before the outbreak, a group of scientists created a variety of E.coli, designed to be sprayed on farm fields:
:As for the Swedish case, in the cited press release=source 1 (in Swedish) they do not mention HUS in relation (personally I think they would if it was confirmed or even suspected), I haven't seen any such reports. The individual is recovering 1 . Was suffering from bloody diarrhea 1 from mid June 1. :Was infected about two weeks earlier (incubation time). No known travel to Germany by him or people he met 1. Has not left [[Scania]] during that time. :No known links to other infected people 1. --[[User:Alcea setosa|Alcea setosa]] ([[User talk:Alcea setosa|talk]]) 01:18, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

''A group of students from Bristol University used a DNA sequence, specially created in the laboratory to change E. coli bacteria for the benefit of agriculture.
This newly created micro-organism, entitled “agrEcoli” will be useful for farmers around the world. Thus, microcapsules containing E. coli bacteria will be sprayed on cultivated land. Modified bacteria was “programmed” to detect the level of nutrients in the soil, reacting with a fluorescent glow that shows the grower, if the area requires more fertilizer, or if there is sufficient nutrients.''
[http://www.evoscience.com/genetically-modified-bacteria-aid-in-agriculture/]
[http://www.descopera.ro/dnews/7908743-bacteriile-modificate-genetic-un-ajutor-in-agricultura] - 22 january 2011.

I wouldn't be surprised if the outbreak appeared because the farmers tested such engineered bacteria. Especially because
[[Talk:Escherichia coli#Eschericia coli is the most studied bacteria|E. coli is the most studied bacteria]].
I think its worth to investigate such a possibility. — [[User:Ark25|'''<span style="background:#0070F0;color:#ffffff">&nbsp;Ark25&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User_talk:Ark25|talk]]) 09:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

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Latest revision as of 23:52, 10 March 2024

Ban on Egyptian seeds

[edit]

Hasn't the time come for an "Aftermath" section to start wrapping up this story? The blame-Egypt position is gaining more and more consensus, with an official EU ban on Egyptian seeds entering into effect yesterday. Right now, though, there's no place in the article where it would be logical to add a report on that development.—Biosketch (talk) 05:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NEJM articles

[edit]

The New England Journal of Medicine had 2 articles on this outbreak in the 25 August 2011 issue http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1106920 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1107643 probably the best report to date. I just read them through once, but I have to read them more carefully before I add them to the article.

This article now requires a complete rewrite, since we now have answers to a lot of the questions that were raised at the time, and a lot of the issues are no longer important.

The important issues according to the NEJM articles include the unusual toxicity of the strain, and the novel molecular methods used to analyze it.

I don't see the point of the long list of the "Affected countries". Can anyone give a reason for not deleting it? --Nbauman (talk) 00:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nbauman, the long list of "Affected countries" should be deleted. An accurate final tabulation of cases by country would suffice. --Zeamays (talk) 01:28, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Probably 800-1200 EHEC infections

[edit]

Not E.coli infections. E.coli is responsible for app 80% of all UTIs and as such should probably be in the range of hundred thousands per year in germany though the source is very vague... --Bjotn (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cause?

[edit]

"A farm in Bienenbuettel, Lower Saxony, was announced as the probable source".

I wonder what did they do different there at that farm? I have seen articles claiming that the outbreak appeared because the feces were spread on the land without transforming it into compost first. But I recently discovered that with only 4 months before the outbreak, a group of scientists created a variety of E.coli, designed to be sprayed on farm fields:

A group of students from Bristol University used a DNA sequence, specially created in the laboratory to change E. coli bacteria for the benefit of agriculture. This newly created micro-organism, entitled “agrEcoli” will be useful for farmers around the world. Thus, microcapsules containing E. coli bacteria will be sprayed on cultivated land. Modified bacteria was “programmed” to detect the level of nutrients in the soil, reacting with a fluorescent glow that shows the grower, if the area requires more fertilizer, or if there is sufficient nutrients. [1] [2] - 22 january 2011.

I wouldn't be surprised if the outbreak appeared because the farmers tested such engineered bacteria. Especially because E. coli is the most studied bacteria. I think its worth to investigate such a possibility. —  Ark25  (talk) 09:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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