Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey

Second-tier league argument regarding Mattias Norlinder

The following argument took place today on my talk page. This IP user, an apparent fan of the Montreal Canadiens, insists on including a team which at the time was a second tier team, Modo Hockey, to the infobox of Mattias Norlinder. I know better, and have attempted to explain to them that we do not do that here, but they dismiss my instruction as WP:OWN and it would appear to me they ignore my reasoning simply because they don't like it.

Below was imported from my talk page. Feel free to put this in a collapsible template or something so it is easier to discuss. It's a small hill, but I will die on it if it's right. mftp dan ^oops 20:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@MFTP Dan for the record, I don't think you did anything wrong here either - consensus policy for a long time has been to include solely top-flight teams in infoboxes if a player's been on one, and only include second-tier or lower if that's the highest level a player reached - as such, if Norlinder only played for Modo when they were an HA team (not SHL), then Modo shouldn't be included, as Norlinder's played top-flight hockey with the Habs and Frolunda. The Kip ^(contribs) 20:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

They ignored you and reverted the article again Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope."47.54.219.33 (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That guideline is entirely irrelevant? It refers to broad consensus applied locally, whereas this is local consensus applied locally with no overarching broad consensus being overruled. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

This is just pure WP:IDHT at this point, someone take it to ANI already. The Kip ^(contribs) 22:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@The Kip Kettle meet pot. Perhaps you should brush up on WP:USTHEM. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 23:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

If the pot is five veteran editors with the same long-standing consensus versus the kettle being one editor refusing to accept that consensus, sure. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@The Kip a classic example of trying to discredit someone by pulling rank. The select "consensus" of a few does not dictate the norm. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 23:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@The Kip: "Don't let anything like "seniority", edit counts, or Wikipedia status of an editor (awards, Barnstars, years of experience) sway your opinion. If the "experienced" editor has knowledge that leads them to hold a certain position in a discussion, they should be able to convey it in an argument that other editors can judge on its own merits." 47.54.219.33 (talk) 23:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

We are not saying we've been here longer, therefore we know better about what should or shouldn't be included. We are saying that we know what the precedents are in this project and are in the right to enforce them because we've been here a while. Huge difference. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 00:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

From the discussion thread provided by @XR228, it appears that there has never even been a precedent set for leagues included in infoboxes. I see a huge divide amongst users when reading these. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I would assume it’s somewhere in the archives. Just keep searching for it, I guess. XR228 (talk) 00:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wheatzilopochtli: I trust you when you say that you know what the consensus is, but if so, can you show it to us? XR228 (talk) 00:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It was already enforced as such when I started editing, I would not have been here for such a discussion. @Triggerbit told me that's how it worked when I was making Samuel Laberge so I deferred to them. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 01:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I see. My honest opinion is that our IP editor should stop fighting, as everyone else agrees on what to do. I guess we’ve reached a consensus of our own. XR228 (talk) 01:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

All I have seen so far in the entirety of this old thread is one or two editors making mention of a perceived rule of thumb in the context of either 7 "top" hockey countries or top level leagues for countries present at the world championships. Others have pointed out that there is no way to assess this in lesser known nation leagues (i.e. Ireland, Kazakhstan), and so long as they can be corroborated by underlying source, they are fair game for mention in an infobox. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 01:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

IP, if there apparently is no consensus on this topic, then why not create one now. Can you just accept that maybe the system that these people have been using for years works. I mean, there's no reason not to follow it. It's consistent. And, if we make the changes you suggest, many articles may have to be changed. XR228 (talk) 01:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wheatzilopochtli wrong yet again. The consensus among infoboxes pertaining to professional athletes across other sports is that it includes a comprehensive history of pro teams played for regardless of a league's perceived notoriety. For example, point guard Tyler Ennis has played for several teams overseas of varying tiers of professionalism; all are nonetheless disclosed in his respective infobox. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 22:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That’s the basketball Wikiproject, they have their own standards/consensus. We have our own, if you want to change them start a proper discussion instead of insisting you’re correct and we’re stupid. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@The Kip not only basketball. Soccer, baseball, need I go on? The Ice Hockey WikiProject is the only swaying from this norm. Hence my point that a limited group of editors cannot override consensus on a wider scale (re professional athletes). 47.54.219.33 (talk) 23:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Cool. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no consensus in any forum that supersedes this project dictating what teams should be put in our infoboxes. If such a consensus exists, I'd like to see the discussion that created it. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 23:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wheatzilopochtli i've literally provided the policy that says that a marginalized group cannot tailor pages/information that differ from wider community (in this case, professional athletes); yourself, @GoodDay, @MFTP Dan, & @The Kip have also failed to provide any sort of tangible proof that second-tier leagues are excluded from the confines of infoboxes aside from your own assertion. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 00:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

You are misapplying the rule and you are willfully ignoring the four regular contributors of the project who are telling you the precedent that they have applied and seen applied. Your continued insistence that you are in the right and should have unilateral authority to create a new precedent is disruptive. Please just drop it. We have already taken action for your edit warring. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Let me try to help you here: if this matters so much to you, how come you haven't done the same thing? Don't you think your narrative would improve if you had any of your own tangible proof of this so-called all-encompassing pro athlete consensus? mftp dan ^oops 00:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Wheatzilopochtli—the point of consensus is that it is to be listened to. The problem has been solved. There is no point in arguing. XR228 (talk) 00:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I reiterate from pulling rank: "Don't let anything like "seniority", edit counts, or Wikipedia status of an editor (awards, Barnstars, years of experience) sway your opinion. If the "experienced" editor has knowledge that leads them to hold a certain position in a discussion, they should be able to convey it in an argument that other editors can judge on its own merits."

None of you have given me any sort of notion that this is in fact the agreed upon consensus. And to your point @MFTP Dan if universally accepted across other subgroups pertaining to pro athletes, then I have every right to question why this not apply here. All I've been told up to this point is that the WikiProject for Ice Hockey is outside this realm of confomrity just because. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 00:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

But it's not really universal as you say. If it was, that would mean they decided that together. They didn't, they just happened to separately decide to do their thing similarly. If they did decide that together, realistically how could we have resisted and ended up with the standard we currently have at the hockey project? What you're saying doesn't make any sense. mftp dan ^oops 00:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@MFTP Dan refer to Template:Infobox ice hockey biography used across all associated player wikipages in this WikiProject which states in its parameters for former_teams (referring to active players): "Professional teams an active player played for. Enter FULL NAME of teams in chronological order. Former teams will not display if (current) team field is blank" and played_for (retired): "Professional teams a retired player played for. Enter FULL NAME of teams". There is no cherry picking of professional leagues based on their perceived relevance. Similarly, you will see that it has been mentioned by other users on underlying talk page that infoboxes on hockey player pages should mirror other professional leagues in being as comprehensive as possible. I am not the only one whom has pointed out this disparity. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 01:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe so, but most players' infoboxes display teams from the highest level of hockey in that country. To use a different system would mean to spend a lot of time changing each page. It's not worth it, and the system we have now already works. XR228 (talk) 01:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive38#infobox -former teams and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive44#The existing top professional leagues XR228 (talk) 00:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, those WikiProjects may have their own consensuses, but the editors of WikiProject Ice Hockey have a different one. XR228 (talk) 00:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

What "wider scale"? We have nothing to do with how their projects dictated their rules. Each of them elected to make their rules independently of each other. The narrative that all those sports somehow came to the same conclusion together and that hockey just decided to defy it, and not that we did it independently from anyone else, is entirely false. We don't have some scale of infobox settings which covers every single sport here like you seem to insinuate. If you wanna argue that we need systematic change which aligns closer to the other sports, be my guest and make a new section with your proposal. Good luck. (I oppose.) mftp dan ^oops 00:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

For baseball, the guidance on teams in the infobox is specific for post-integration era players who played in any one of Major League Baseball, Nippon Professional Baseball, or KBO League. In this scenario, only these teams are listed in the infobox. isaacl (talk) 02:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

You keep asking: show you the consensus. YOU show US where this sports-wide consensus that you claim to exist was formally established. Correlation is not causation. Strange though it may seem to someone unfamiliar with how Wikipedia works, there are any number of ways that the various sports projects differ in their practices and outlooks. Ravenswing 02:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ravenswing: Well said. XR228 (talk) 02:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ravenswing and gatekeeping is not consensus. I have already highlighted how other users have noted the disparity of infoboxes in hockey related wikipages compared to its sport counterparts. The past discussions surrounding precedent used also proved to be polarizing. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 03:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

In short, you've got nothing. Right. Gotcha. Ravenswing 03:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

If the IP were this adamant, they could procure an RfC. Though I'd imagine it wouldn't go too well for them. Conyo14 (talk) 05:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The IP's behaving like a troll. Merely interested in being disruptive. GoodDay (talk) 13:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@GoodDay Not at all. Just merely strving to be a Wiki elitist like @Ravenswing suggests we all be. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 03:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ravenswing you literally have a self quote on your user page about being a Wiki "elitist"...that says all I need to know about you. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 03:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

You missed a quote on my user page: "People who pick over this user page for ammunition to use in ... discussions: ... Searching for some dirt to fling because you can't win on the merits of the argument is a sure sign that a collaborative encyclopedia is not the environment for you. Maybe Fox News is hiring." That says all we need to know about you. You jonesing that much for another block? Ravenswing 05:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ravenswing "We are not required to pay any group of editors deference, their self-proclaimed "expertise" notwithstanding." You're really pushing a collaborative agenda there with that little gem, eh? 47.54.219.33 (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Your latest block puts paid to your trolling, and maybe in the next three months you can get a better handle on how Wikipedia works. We're not into snipe fests here. Indeed, we don't have to pay any group of editors deference. But we do have to respect consensus, our only option there being to gather enough support behind your POV to change or overturn it. If you're just incapable of working collaboratively and respectfully, we don't need you around here. Ravenswing 02:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm concerned that the IP is willfully edit-warring. GoodDay (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

After a quick look I see that is a known disruptor at Montreal Canadiens-related pages. Various IPs from this range of this particular editor have been blocked more than once for such behavior. An IP range ban would be the best solution, but administrators rarely do that. – sbaio 03:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the IP continues to edit war on his own talkpage, removing the block notice. Best we be prepared, when he returns. GoodDay (talk) 13:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Reversal of edits on Mattias Norlinder

Putting this template on for ease of page navigation, and to separate the talk page discussion copy from discussion on this page. The Kip (contribs) 20:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Your reversal of edits on the wiki page for Mattias Norlinder is both disruptive and constitutes WP:Own. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 04:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC) As an IP, you have unusual awareness of this policy (which you've misunderstood). I am not owning the page, I am monitoring your edits because I find your edit pattern and the fact that you disregard the comments of others concerning. If you take such an issue with the way leagues are represented, take it up with WP:HOCKEY. Allsvenskan teams are not included in the infobox unless the player is currently there. Would you include the Laval Rocket as well? They're a professional league, after all. Of course you wouldn't. mftp dan oops 14:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC) Maybe you need to brush up on the WP:OWN policy, rockstar. "No one, no matter what, has the right to...dictate what the article may or may not say." Furthermore, your reversal of my edits are considered a form of edit warring, which, when conducted "with dogged insistence" and "without good policy backup", in itself "may be an expression of ownership behavior". For the record, there is absolutely no difference in listing a HockeyAllsvenskan team in an infobox than a DEL2 team for example (compared to its DEL counterpart). See pages such as Lucas Lessio, Christian Thomas (ice hockey), Martin Réway, and Sebastian Collberg for further reference. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC) None of the examples you've provided me are supposed to have these listed, Charlottetown. Inevitably, European players who never end up playing for the North American leagues will slip in unnoticed. We aren't perfect, but that doesn't make it a precedent to follow. I've been doing this for years. mftp dan oops 15:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC) Except every single one of those players mentioned has amassed North American and/or National Hockey League experience...your point is invalid. By the way, your statement "I've been doing this for years" also goes against the WP:OWN policy (specifically, para 1 under Statements re pulling rank. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 15:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC) You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm doing, when you really should just take the good faith of someone who has been doing this a lot longer than you have instead of arguing with someone who's been established and seen how policy is applied, even if I can't dig up exactly where this was agreed upon in some deep archive. What else do I do? But that's besides the point. Humor me for a second, Charlottetown: say, instead of being a Canadiens fan, you were a Bruins fan (a far worse fate). Would you apply the same principle for David Pastrnak's tenure with Södertalje? I'd like to see how that would go. mftp dan oops 15:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC) The player in question (Norlinder) had pro experience prior to being drafted/North American debut. Since Modo Hockey embodies both the HockeyAllsvenskan team as well as its Swedish Hockey League (SHL) counterpart, this is an accurate inclusion. This can be seen in infobox for Nicklas Lidström whom played for Västerås IK in all of: Hockeyettan, HockeyAllsvenskan, and the SHL between 1987-89, with underlying wikipage being formatted only to its SHL parallel. Regardless, it does not take away from the experience gained in the other two professional leagues whom share the same namesake. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 18:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC) That is once again not how it works. In Lidström's case, since you brought it up, Västerås was promoted to the top flight in 1989, while Lidström was still playing in Sweden. Modo was never in the top flight when Norlinder played for them, so it is excluded, since he has played in a top-flight league in his career, though briefly. Whether it came before Norlinder was in Montreal, or whether the two leagues are related or not, is entirely irrelevant. mftp dan oops 19:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC) You can see the exact same thing in infobox for David Reinbacher re EHC Kloten. He played in both the Swiss League and National League iterations of the team. Its inclusion in the infobox can be interpreted as either or. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 19:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC) No, it can't. That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's there because he played for Kloten while they were in the top flight. I don't know why you're trying so hard to argue this, any established hockey editor would tell you the exact same thing. mftp dan oops 19:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC) And yet, an "established hockey editor" you clearly are not. Stick to your Green Day albums. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC) @47.54.219.33 Dan is absolutely an established hockey editor and they are telling you the same things I've been telling you that you've been ignoring. Please defer to precedent and stop putting second tier teams in infoboxes. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC) Yes, because I'm supposed to let the IP who's been editing since June 28 be wrong just because they don't like the community's opinion on how players have their teams listed in the infobox. I may die on small hills, but they are what's right. mftp dan oops 19:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC) @Wheatzilopochtli that's rich coming from the WP:OWN gatekeeper who has created a page for a 15-year-old WHL prospect who has played a total of ZERO professional games to date across any sort of league here or abroad. @MFTP Dan I've been active on Wikipedia a lot longer than my current IP address may lead one to believe (January 2013). 47.54.219.33 (talk) 19:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC) And yet you never learned the standard? Rich. I'll be bringing this to the WikiProject. mftp dan oops 20:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC) @47.54.219.33 DuPont passes GNG, and even if he doesn't I fail to see how that's relevant. Please stop hurling insults and accusations, and start acting collaboratively. Dan is right to escalate this if they choose to do so. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

This IP appears to have a compiled quite a few reverted edits that they have been warned about for more than a month. It's beyond time that they were blocked for ongoing disruptive edits. PKT(alk) 21:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's time for the IP to be blocked for edit-warring. GoodDay (talk) 23:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I have notified WP:ANI of the incident Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 23:30, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I've requested semi-protection for the three player bios, so the IP will be barred from continuing their edit-warring there. GoodDay (talk) 23:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the IP continues to edit war & including on a new bio page. It's apparent that the IP isn't going to stop, until they're blocked. GoodDay (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on your own talk page, it appears that you likewise have gatekeeping tendencies. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 02:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Note - The IP has been blocked for two weeks. GoodDay (talk) 03:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Harassment on talkpage

Now, the IP is harassing me on my own talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 02:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Funny how he calls you "disruptive." IP should buy a mirror. XR228 (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

IP is back

The User:216.208.243.230 is changing everything back to the way they had it on Montreal Canadians pages. This is the exact same behaviour as the previous IP. Llammakey (talk) 17:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a big issue with the edit you linked. I wouldn't change "publisher=Manitoba Hockey League" to 'website=Manitoba Hockey League", but there's nothing egregious about those changes. PKT(alk) 18:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad somebody understands... 47.54.219.33 (talk) 03:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but it is a block evasion. Llammakey (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The IP is back to its behavior after block

So the IP has returned after block's expiration and immediately went back to old ways. I would report it, but I am unable to do it at this moment. – sbaio 03:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Should this go to ANI or edit war? Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wheatzilopochtli@Sbaio you two really need to get lives. My edits have already been identified as non-egregious by admin above; stop harassing me. 47.54.219.33 (talk) 03:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Not all of them are. That's true. But you make your own standard to follow, as seen above. mftp dan ^oops 04:12, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

ANI. Conyo14 (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

ANI, and the previous blocking admin should be pinged. Someone who just dives back into the same behavior the moment the block expires needs a longer one. Ravenswing 05:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Before going through with the ANI report, I would recommend coming up with specific diffs that show disruptive behavior beyond the online personality they're delivering. Conyo14 (talk) 06:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

They need to be blocked again, for a much longer period of time. GoodDay (talk) 09:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

This particular IP has been doing:

• Edits like this (used another IP for this edit), which is useless;
• Changing capitalization from "NHL entry draft" to "NHL Entry Draft" (edit above and once again different IP was used, the main IP that was recently blocked or even piping to its preferred version);
• Has been removing messages from other editors from its talk page (warnings or messages of any kind);
• Has a history of WP:OWNership regarding anything related to Montreal Canadiens.

All of that just shows that another block should be indefinite, but administrators rarely block whole range. – sbaio 12:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Recently they seem to have an attachment to Rutger McGroarty as well, probably because it's recent hockey news. Or maybe they know my fandom and it's personal, wouldn't be surprised, but I have no definitive evidence of that. Probably just coincidence. Sucks, because some of what this user does is useful, but they have utter disregard for working as a community. mftp dan ^oops 16:37, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio warned them for their 3RR violation on Jayden Struble (assuming the 2605 IP is also them, which seems highly likely). If they continue I'm going to WP:EWN. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jake Wartenberg: has blocked the IP for three months for disruptive editing, so we’re all handled here. The Kip ^(contribs) 00:39, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

IP is back 2

2605:b100:b25:10cc:ad35:10de:233e:e612 appears to be the same user. See edit history at Mattias Norlinder. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Active at David Reinbacher too with a different address... Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:55, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Now that’s what I call block evasion. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That would now be their second block evasion just in the last few weeks as I noted above. Their experience in doing this and using only IP addresses makes me believe that they are a previously banned user who keeps on coming back to get their wiki fix. Llammakey (talk) 19:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Might be what you're referring to but at one point they outright said something along the lines of "I've been editing much longer than my current IP would indicate." Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Self-incriminating IP wasn't on my bingo card. XR228 (talk) 21:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

How does one deal with a mobile IP? What action can be taken here? Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 03:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Same can be done to the main IP, a block of some length for Socking. Conyo14 (talk) 03:58, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Jake Wartenberg as the original blocking admin. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I've opened an ANI thread here. The Kip ^(contribs) 09:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Jake has rangeblocked the offending IPs for block evasion. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

And a third time

User 142.163.116.80 has the same patterns of behavior Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted edits by this IP. – sbaio 02:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio @Wheatzilopochtli after reports at both ANI and the EWN (the latter specifically over Daniel Walcott, they've been blocked. The Kip ^(contribs) 16:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The .80 IP doesn't seem to be blocked yet if I'm not mistaken Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah yeah, my bad - that one’s been inactive for the last two days, so I assume it didn’t meet the threshold of disruption. The other one, which had continued into today, is blocked. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:30, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Another new address at 216.208.243.73 Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 01:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Ad Orientem has rangeblocked the 216.208.243 IPs for a week. The Kip ^(contribs) 03:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Looks like a month actually. Maybe we can breathe for a little while... Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 03:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Prepare yourselves for a long winter. The individual behind the disruptions won't likely stop, until Wikimedia bans them. GoodDay (talk) 19:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. This has the air of one of those who have been previously banned and now it is whack-a-mole until the higher ups step in. Llammakey (talk) 19:41, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as long as they’re editing under IPs there’s not a lot that can be done - admins are typically hesitant to rangeblock for more than 3-6 months unless it’s proven a disruptive IP is stable. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

(moved from below) Block evader?

I'm kinda concerned about IP 142.163.116.80, who just showed up today. GoodDay (talk) 22:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Quacks like a WP:DUCK. I'll send to ANI. The Kip ^(contribs) 22:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, IP 142.163.206.14. Suffice it to say, he ain't gonna stop until Wikimedia bans him. GoodDay (talk) 22:36, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

ANI filing here. The Kip ^(contribs) 22:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Yet (IP 216.208.243.93) another one? GoodDay (talk) 20:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Quack quack. Geolocates to Atlantic Canada yet again.

@Jake Wartenberg sorry to continue bothering - there’s another one. The Kip ^(contribs) 21:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: I think you should know. There's an IP hopping blocked editor, attempting to undo links to NHL entry draft, via making them "NHL Entry Draft", among many hockey pages. GoodDay (talk) 02:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe some day I'll have JWB again, and can search out and fix those. Dicklyon (talk) 03:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Another duck

I'm in class all day today, could someone take out the new sock at 156.34.8.38? Same pattern of editing but quacked loudest at Ivan Demidov (ice hockey) Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 13:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Checked to be sure even though I think it's pretty evidently the same IP hopper, but the new IP does in fact also geolocate to Atlantic Canada. At this point I would request an extension of the blocks on every offending IP as they have made clear they will not stop evading their blocks until it is made completely impossible for them to access the website. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 13:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Wheatzilopochtli Ad Orientem has blocked the IP. The Kip ^(contribs) 01:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Quinlan @Jake Wartenberg see above. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

and @Ad Orientem. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@The Kip Sorry, but if I have dealt with this problematic editor before, I don't remember it. Who is this supposed to be? -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem it’s more than like this IP range you previously blocked. The Kip ^(contribs) 00:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@The Kip Blocked x 1 month. Probably would be a good idea to start an LTA page for this individual that can be quickly referenced and where we can keep track of their IPs/GeoLoc/MO/target articles and subjects etc. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, I'll get around to it soon. The Kip ^(contribs) 01:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem appreciate the block! The Kip ^(contribs) 01:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

LTA page created

See Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/47.54.219.33 for quick reference when future socks pop up. The Kip ^(contribs) 01:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging @Wheatzilopochtli and @GoodDay as the others here that're frequently dealing with said IP. The Kip ^(contribs) 02:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I suspect the list will grow. GoodDay (talk) 02:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Nice job with this, said everything I wanted to say Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 14:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Worth noting Jake has now extended the original IP’s block to a year and revoked their talk-page access after they repeatedly attempted to remove their unblock appeal, in violation of WP:BLANKING (and left some angry edit summaries in the process). The Kip ^(contribs) 03:28, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

New mobile IP

They're back at 2605:b100:b32:1e94:515e:7b0d:a26f:b10f and the related range. Not doing the usual stuff and have been largely unproblematic at the new IP but told on themself with the use of the phrase "the foregoing" at Jesse Ylönen. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You know what, this is a previously confirmed range of theirs. 2605:B100:B00:0:0:0:0:0/41 Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Their edits at Brady Keeper are also identical. Conflicted as to whether we should do anything right now - it's certainly block evasion, but as you said, they've seemingly stopped their disruptive behaviors for now. The Kip ^(contribs) 16:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I am also conflicted. My gut says all their IPs should have their bans extended to the match that of the main IP but for now I'm happy to leave them be and monitor their activity so long as they remain constructive. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 17:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

nevermind they're already arguing with me about the definition of the word prospect Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 17:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I've no sympathy for any block evader. Block'em. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

All edits are identical to blocked IPs, but this time this editor is trying to avoid some of the stuff. – sbaio 20:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Two new IPs

Looks like the block evasion is being continued – two new IPs appeared at Filip Mešár and both edit content related to the Montreal Canadiens. – sbaio 17:06, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

142.163 is the same range as two of their previously blocked socks. 71.7 is new. The whole 142.163 range needs to be blocked but the 71.7 hasn't technically done anything to expose itself as the user that I have noticed yet, but I agree it is likely them. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 17:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Four IP ranges are used for block evasion:

• 71.7.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 142.163.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 142.67.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 156.34.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

All of these IP ranges are used specifically for Canadiens-related content so it is evidently the same person. – sbaio 03:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm gonna be specific and mention 71.7.139.122 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 142.163.207.50 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 142.67.118.150 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 156.34.8.38 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) are the ones likeliest to be our IP disrupter. They are all geolocated in the same area. Conyo14 (talk) 04:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Block evader is back

156.34.8.38 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Llammakey (talk) 18:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to the blocking admin! Llammakey (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

142.176.20.1 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Llammakey (talk) 12:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't geolocate to the same region. Conyo14 (talk) 17:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Their behaviour and editing history sure makes it look like the same editor from the Maritimes. I mean the vast majority of edits are either about PEI or the Montreal Canadiens, especially since November 25. Llammakey (talk) 18:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Possible Canadiens block evasion

A completely new account (Rubbaband Mang (talk · contribs)) has started editing Canadiens-related pages right from the start. A quick looks at edits implies that it could be the same IP. – sbaio 05:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The interaction history is not good for them. Though, they haven't done their classic blanking the talk page aside from remocing their immediate block due to a bad faith username. Just monitor very closely. They've removed the caps from entry draft, which is something the IP usually capitilzed. Conyo14 (talk) 06:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been keeping tabs on this one. The only match to behavior I see is the alarmingly high rapid-fire small edits (see Cole Caufield). We had a minor spat, but I think if it was the same person they would not have agreed to work together to find a writing solution with me. The LTA was much more brazen and belligerent. We'll keep an eye, but as Conyo mentioned, if it's them they seem to have dropped the capitalization issue. mftp dan ^oops 15:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

From my tracking of IP users on the pages they frequented, it seems that not only have they dropped the capitalization thing, but their edits are on the whole more constructive and their behavior is more collaborative. I am in agreement that it is likely the same user committing block evasion but I am cautiously optimistic that they will stop being a problem. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 17:14, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect it's an evade situation, TBH. But, I'll leave it to yas to decide. GoodDay (talk) 15:51, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's not act until we see definitive overlap of behavior. Remember, up until this supposed point, the LTA never registered an account, and was scornful, belligerent, and blatantly resistant and brazen toward any sort of community consensus. This account has barely, if any, of such behavior aside from edit-pace, of which most seem helpful and genuinely good faith. Why risk biting a good contributor and pushing a good thing away? (Don't respond with gaming the system, I've heard that one - too early.) mftp dan ^oops 16:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It is the same person. Used their favorite phrase "the foregoing" at Jake Allen (ice hockey). Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know they did that. I've corrected that wording a few times where it could have been better, but they didn't resist much, so I don't really mind personally. Their work has been much more constructive. What a weird turnaround. mftp dan ^oops 19:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes a 52nd chance works, I guess. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:50, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Hey, at the first sign of them showing aggressive willful ignorance, I'm not opposed to immediately closing the door again. An intriguing case, for sure. mftp dan ^oops 19:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, there doesn't seem to be a way for administrators to permanently stop the block evasions. -- GoodDay (talk) 19:56, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Never has been. Where there's a will, there's a way. mftp dan ^oops 19:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Funny how a word rarely used on Wikipedia, much less in most people's lexicon, is the smoking gun. Conyo14 (talk) 05:27, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Seems like Bbb23 is not a fan of letting him work. I tried to help him and suggest he be honest and make an honest appeal to work constructively, but he opted to play dumb. Shame, poor choice. Can't say I didn't warn the guy. mftp dan ^oops 14:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Visual timelines

Do people find these useful, or are they a bit much?

• Template:Timeline National Hockey League
• Kootenay International Junior Hockey League#Franchise timeline
• United States Hockey League#Junior league timeline
• Western Hockey League#Franchise timeline
• Ontario Hockey League#Timeline of franchises (since 1980)
• Quebec Maritimes Junior Hockey League#Timeline of teams

Buffalkill (talk) 23:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't care for them, but won't fight about them. Flibirigit (talk) 00:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Should be deleted. GoodDay (talk) 03:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I also see no reason to keep these. In addition, please look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey#NHL timeline moved since it is related to NHL timeline. – sbaio 19:45, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• I find the NHL one to be somewhat useful as a tracker or organizational changes, but the minor/junior leagues are typically so unstable with teams that I'm not sure of their use - they get massive and cluttered fairly quickly. The Kip ^(contribs) 00:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  The junior leagues timelines are all smaller than the NHL's. Killashaw (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I think they are useful. A picture is worth a thousand words.--Killashaw (talk) 20:44, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Assadzadeh (talk) 02:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

• The NHL one is fine, I don't think the others are quite as useful. Conyo14 (talk) 20:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

They're all pretty ugly, and many of the color combos fail MOS:COLOR guidelines at MOS:ACCESS. I think we're better off without them. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The color combos can be fixed Assadzadeh (talk) 03:05, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I like them alright, myself. Is there genuinely something wrong with them other than some people not liking the aesthetics? Ravenswing 05:06, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I only ask out of curiosity, not wanting to ban them. For me they’re like visual word salad. Buffalkill (talk) 23:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Licensing of ice hockey uniform images

I nominated several uniform images for deletion on the Commons, based on how such images are handled as fair use at Category:National Hockey League uniforms. Any comments or insight are welcome. See the discussions here, here, and here. Best wishes. Flibirigit (talk) 00:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, based on my understanding of Commons' rules about being free use only, and based on those uniforms including (low-res) versions of copyrighted crests (which makes them derivative works), the can only be considered fair-used and shouldn't be on Commons. They need to be re-uploaded locally before they're correctly deleted from Commons. Probably would up there because the creator didn't understand the proper licensing, which happens. oknazevad (talk) 03:18, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

So far, the only response on the Commons disagrees that the uniforms should be fair use. I notice that National Football League uniforms are all on the Commons, whereas Major League Baseball uniforms are fair use on Wikipedia. Flibirigit (talk) 03:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen Stats Table shifted one column off

Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen's table for his stats is shifted by one column. I don't know enough about tables to fix it but I figured someone here would know what to do. Rowei99 (talk) 02:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

The problem is the columns for "ties" and "overtime losses". The statistical databases are inconsistent with how the data is presented. Flibirigit (talk) 03:12, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Alex Stalock

There is a belligerent editor on the article insistent on adding that Stalock got heart issues from the COVID vaccine despite not having any sources to back up that claim and is now claiming I have political bias. He refuses to engage on the talk page and is just reverting the reversion. I've now reached the end of my reversion capability and tagged them as a vandal, but I feel like they intend to pursue this unsourced claim. Llammakey (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Seeing how his only edits are on this article. You can take them to WP:AIV. WP:ANI might help too. However, continue adding warnings to their talk page until they stop. Conyo14 (talk) 17:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Hot articles list

Howdy all,

I recently tried to set up WP:NHL at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject/Hot articles config.json, in order to generate a hot articles list for the project. However, as Category:WikiProject Ice Hockey articles is empty of actual articles, the list can't generate. In order for it to do so, (I think) we need to manually add the aforementioned category to articles, as the automatic categories added by talk page tags classify articles into the class-based subcategories.

Don't get me wrong, I understand this is a big project - there's somewhere around 56,000 ice hockey articles. Is anyone willing to join me on it? I feel like at minimum we should try to classify NHL articles, given Euro and international articles don't get quite as much attention. The Kip ^(contribs) 17:59, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Is there a way of populating the list via the talk page links, such as Category:Start-Class Ice Hockey articles or Category:FL-Class Ice Hockey articles? Llammakey (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit war situation at United States men's national ice hockey team

There is an edit war sitution at United States men's national ice hockey team regarding world championship totals and Olympic ice hockey tournaments. I have invited the editor to discuss as per WP:BRD. Other input is welcome. Flibirigit (talk) 03:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Flibirigit and Pizzigs: Sorry I won't be edit war, but I've already explain the reason. It's because they only receive medals in olympic tournaments but not in world championships, so shouldn't count in medal infobox, it's double count, but the result can count it because olympics held that year counted as the world championships. Also I've constructive table in competitive record, I don't know why he always delete the information. Thanks.Stevencocoboy (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I cannot understand your logic, nor what you are trying to say. Please discuss it at Talk:United States men's national ice hockey team. In the meantime, please try the suggestions for the sandbox and your user space subpage. Best wishes. Flibirigit (talk) 03:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Flibirigit: It means no world championships. Olympics result = World Championships result in that year, and the team receive medals in olympic tournaments only, NOT in world championships so we won't be count in infobox, it's double count. Also I can't find any information, picture or source to prove the team receive medals in world championships. See as the example in Soviet Union men's national ice hockey team. They won't count 1956 & 1964 medals in world championships and count in olympics only. Thanks. Stevencocoboy (talk) 04:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Correcting the @Pizzigs: because it was not done properly. Flibirigit (talk) 17:09, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

NHL All-Star team flags

I have reverted an editor at NHL All-Star team twice in the last week, but edit summaries suggest that editor will continue to ignore the consensus regarding flags. There was a discussion about addition of flags exactly one year ago. – sbaio 07:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• I've seen no action on this for several days. Maybe it's stable now. Flibirigit (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Flibirigit I hope so, though from past experience the user in question's response to content disputes is to revert any warnings and plow ahead. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Peer review

Hello there. As you know, I am trying to make a Seattle Kraken good/featured topic, and because some of the Kraken lists' "limited subject," they need a peer review instead. I have one such review right now, on List of Seattle Kraken head coaches. XR228 (talk) 01:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia Appearance Bar

The appearance bar clips through the statistics of sports players for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yann_Sauvéhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yann_Sauvé in the career statistics section the appearance or tool bar will clip through the stats. This makes for an unpleasant or unclean look. Mergle (talk) 02:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I see no problems at Yann Sauvé. Sorry, no clue what the issue is. Flibirigit (talk) 17:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Canada is the most successful team in the world?

An editor has contested that the Canada men's national ice hockey team is the most successful team in the world. Please see discussion at Talk:Canada men's national ice hockey team#"One of the" versus "the" most successful teams? Anyone is welcome to comment. Flibirigit (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2025 (UTC)