Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brynn Tyler: Difference between revisions

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Most of the discussion centered around the correct use and interpretation of WP:PORNBIO, rough consensus is that article meets that bar. j⚛e decker ^talk 02:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Brynn Tyler

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I noticed the following things in this article:

This is a BLP and requires per the WMF, Jimbo and WP:BLP the highest levels of fact checking. After all Wikipedia's reputation is always being tested on how accurately it has assessed its subjects worthiness for inclusion and and how well the community has checked the fact of this article.
Both the title and the first sentence are misleading. - and would be easier to delete than to correct. The most basic fact in this article is under dispute. Is this article about Brynn Tyler ? Is it an article about Londyn Allison? Is it an article about some one else? Without reference to a real person none of this article can be reasonable WP:V Consider Mark Twain or Lewis Carrol. Is Brynn Tyler a person actually born on November 14, 1987 in Texas. Clearly not - Brynn Tyler is a fiction which was born years later by Wicked Pictures or another similar company whose interests are being promoted by this article WP:COI. Isn't the existence of multiple aliases further evidence that other companies later decided that Brynn Tyler is not a good name for this subject? All in all it is clear that this the title is misleading and a lie of omission. How can Wikipedia editors condone this article notable if they cannot possibly verify or correct the inaccurate statement drawn fully from WP:OR. If it is not 100% correct - it has no place in a WP:BLP The second sentence is no better:
"She debuted in 2007 and since then has appeared in about 90 movies." - this again is unfit for inclusion in any serious encyclopedia since it is WP:SYNTH. Since when do we publish assessment. This is a serious statement which boldly claims that someone has engaged in about 90 sexual encounters. I am certain that all our editors would be shocked if they were described by Britannica as having been in about 3 porno movies - especially if they had been in none. Further more it is contradicted by the info box which states exactly 87. Secondly these are not movies which debut in a Cinema as the article and its sourced would like to claim but pornographic videos, dvd or just internet based media. The article is clearly fails WP:NPOV in this regard. Finlay this material is plagiarised from IAFD in contravention with their usage policies. And in are still think that 87 == 90 consider that more reputable databases list 60. No database actually makes such bold claims this number is subject to change and cannot possibly be sourced in an adequately way it is just WP:SYNTH. So this too should be deleted immediately according to WP:BLP.
The rest of the article is promotional links and a list of awards added to create an illusion of notability.

From WP:GNG

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.^[1]
"Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
"Sources",^[2] for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected.^[3] Sources are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.
"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent.^[4]
"Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not, perhaps the most likely violation being Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

Source	Issues	WP:N
[1]	unsourced peer produced information from their copyright page "You are more than welcome to submit corrections to us, via the "Submit Corrections" buttons found on every title and performer page. Please send other comments or suggestions to us, at iafd@iafd.com." information is plagiarised in contravention of IAFD's policy If you're using the bio data: Biographical data courtesy of the Internet Adult Film Database.	most of this DB entries are not notable.
[2]	WP:OR and fails WP:RS	This is a web page that gives awards and list over a thousand names.
[3]	WP:VAINITY;WP:OR;non WP:RS this awards includes the affiliate program of the year award, web host of the year, billing company of the year. This is not a reliable source for bio.	This is another web sites which gives awards. It discusses 100s of individuals on this page should they all all have article because of that?.
[4]	WP:OR; non WP:RS This is an article by AVN about an AVN and discusses 4 other individuals who shared this award	Fails WP:GNG and WP:PonrBio
[5]	WP:OR;non WP:RS this awards includes the affiliate program of the year award, best hosting of the year etc...	this article covers several hundred people it is unsuitable to establish WP:GNG for them all.

Keep - Subject clearly passes both WP:GNG and WP:PORNBIO. She has been nominated for several awards in her field. The references are germane to that field and are independent of the subject. The subject is clearly a pornographic actress, so there is no problem with saying that they've been in 1, 3, or 90 pornographic films. With all the fuss that OrenBochman (talk · contribs) has been raising lately over articles about porn stars, I'm thinking that they have a WP:POINT that they are trying to promote. I suppose that next they'll want to raise similar concerns over Lady Gaga, Cher, and John Wayne due to their names.

Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. Dismas|^(talk) 18:36, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So basicaly if it is a PORNBIO it does not have to abide by WP:V WP:OR WP:SYNTH or WP:BLP. in this case anything goes ? BO | Talk 18:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This was posted 18 minutes after you announced that you've "retired". Perhaps you should make up your mind. Ubelowme (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed if I cannot get a fair hearing my retierment will be effective immediatly - it is this important.! BO | Talk 19:19, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I didn't say that. I also believe it satisfies WP:BLP, WP:V, and every other guideline and policy we have. Saying someone who works in porn has been in a porn movie does not violate BLP. It's all verifiable. It's not SYNTH or OR since we have RS's for the info. Dismas|^(talk) 19:06, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Saying some one has appeared in 90 films based on a count of the database is WP:SYNTH. The DB is accurate in listing known movies but it does not claim this is the actual number. So this is OR and Synth. I spent hours research this. You decided within five minutes. BO | Talk 19:32, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So maybe I read faster than you do. It actually takes less than five minutes for me to pull up the IAFD listing as see right at the top that it says 111 titles. What's your point? Dismas|^(talk) 03:35, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I already explined this above. For one other databases say IMDB give differnt numbers. IAFD is not a particulary accurate source to refrence for this information - it asks for corrections on every pages. So it cannot be claimed to WP:RS. Tommorow the number could go up or down will you update it every time - I don't think so? It also considers web based only as movies. Thus stating that these are movies is an deceives the general public that these are on par with the number of movies that Nicolas Cage or Brad Pit has appeared in. Finaly it is not fact. Now the reason this is OR and Synth is that you have selected one of many unreliable sources which do not agree for this information and concluded that this is the correct one. THis is a conclusion. Unless there is a definitive research done on this outside WP then this WP:Fact must be excluded - since this is still a BLP. BO | Talk 07:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another problem with using IAFD is that it has published usage policy and this article violates it. BO | Talk 07:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I agree that this individual meets WP:PORNBIO and, yes, I agree that the nominator seems to have some kind of WP:POINT about biographies of porn stars. There is a place for that discussion and it's not with relation to a specific article. Wikipedia is not censored; this material is perfectly appropriate to this encyclopedia. Ubelowme (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the nominator's essay Pornography considered harmful could be enlightening about that. Cavarrone (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: now the essay has been deleted upon request of the same creator.Cavarrone (talk) 04:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If the editor refuses to correct the mistakes in the article then AfD is the choice of last resort. I am sorry that it has come to this. But according to protocol I could not remove the inaccuracies without a broader consensus. While I respect that you prefer to include this article - it cannot stay in its current form. Cavarrone knows my user page better then me and has been quoting my talk page nonstop for 48 hours - but he has refused to correct any of the defincenices in this article. Please let me know if I should ask Jimbo himself to intereceed ??? BO | Talk 19:26, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep Bad faith nomination, just a part of a massive disruption you can see reported at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive756#Mass_speedy_deletion_requests_by_User:OrenBochman. Cavarrone (talk) 18:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good faith nomination grounded in policy and indeed a direct follow up of the CSD attempt made earlier this week - mentioned in the above link. However the admin who removed the CSD advised that an AfD is the correct venue for this deletion request. Also the incident has not ruled that I have been disruptive. I have only made a single AfD on this subject this week and I doubt you have even bothered to read it. If you bother you will learn something about how badly your bios are written. And yes I have declared my biases to keep my action transparent and avoid COI.BO | Talk 19:22, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Really... everyone could read in the above linked discussion the comments about your behaviour, not only related to this "incident". All your five speedy deletion requests were declined. All your overtaggings were reverted as pointy and retaliatory (see relevant edit summaries). According to your talk page (that you requested for deletion and now blanked - have you something to hide? [6]) I see your rollback priviledges were removed. I see you were warned about a cool-down block related to the incident and then about a possible future block for disruptiveness related to your improper use of automatic tools. But everything is ok, keep it up! Cavarrone (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've blanked my Talk Page due to extensive grierefing.

Delete No sources detail this individual in the depth required for an article. Nominations for porn-awards do not pass the extremely low bar of WP:PORNBIO. Hipocrite (talk) 19:04, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. When I accessed WP:PORNBIO a moment ago, it said "has been nominated for such an award several times". Are we looking at two different documents? Ubelowme (talk) 19:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment - There's a movement afoot to take that part of the requirements out of PORNBIO. Some editors feel it's too much to allow those who have just been nominated for several years. Dismas|^(talk) 19:20, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes the new tightened version of WP:PORNBIO that gained widespread consensus. Epbr123 (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep meets the requirements of the lastest version of PORNBIO, as set by consensus. We're always welcome to revist this article after other portions of PORNBIO are removed through a consensus, and then judge notability per WP:ANYBIO's instructions toward well-known awards... and we will argue then whether or not a film award notable to its genre has any merit. 23:07, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Speedy close of bad faith nomination per the AN/I discussion mentioned above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:17, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain why you consider this a bad faith nomination? BO | Talk 00:38, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Fans of Adult Media and Entertainment Award is not an industry award - it is a fan award.

Comment: CAVR is an award given by a website. This is not an industry award either BO | Talk 00:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep per WP:POINT. DarkAudit (talk) 05:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Nomination is based on a failed understanding of what the policies mean and how they are applied. Clearly meets the inclusion criteria. QU ^TalkQu 09:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Individual appears to pass WP:PORNBIO. Fine piece of Wikilawyering, though. I mean that in a positive light. Roodog2k (talk) 18:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, at least for now. The nominator's concerns about sourcing and BLP issues are certainly sound, but the current consensus has been that a stub article like this which recites an adequate set of well-known/significant awards/nominations is not so inadequate as to result in deletion. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

^ Examples: The 360-page book by Sobel and the 528-page book by Black on IBM are plainly non-trivial. The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton (Martin Walker (1992-01-06). "Tough love child of Kennedy". The Guardian. In high school, he was part of a jazz band called Three Blind Mice.) is plainly trivial.
^ Including but not limited to newspapers, books and e-books, magazines, television and radio documentaries, reports by government agencies, and academic journals. In the absence of multiple sources, it must be possible to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view, is credible and provides sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.
^ Lack of multiple sources suggests that the topic may be more suitable for inclusion in an article on a broader topic. It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works. Several journals simultaneously publishing different articles does not always constitute multiple works, especially when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information. Similarly, a series of publications by the same author or in the same periodical is normally counted as one source.
^ Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability. See also: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest for handling of such situations.

[1] Examples: The 360-page book by Sobel and the 528-page book by Black on IBM are plainly non-trivial. The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton (Martin Walker (1992-01-06). "Tough love child of Kennedy". The Guardian. In high school, he was part of a jazz band called Three Blind Mice.) is plainly trivial.

[2] Including but not limited to newspapers, books and e-books, magazines, television and radio documentaries, reports by government agencies, and academic journals. In the absence of multiple sources, it must be possible to verify that the source reflects a neutral point of view, is credible and provides sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.

[3] Lack of multiple sources suggests that the topic may be more suitable for inclusion in an article on a broader topic. It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works. Several journals simultaneously publishing different articles does not always constitute multiple works, especially when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information. Similarly, a series of publications by the same author or in the same periodical is normally counted as one source.

[4] Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability. See also: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest for handling of such situations.

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

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+:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.''
+<!--Template:Afd top
+Note:  If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links in order to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]].  When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. -->
+The result was    '''keep'''. &nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Crisco 1492]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 02:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
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 :''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.''
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 *'''Keep''' Passes the new tightened version of WP:PORNBIO that gained widespread consensus. [[User:Epbr123|Epbr123]] ([[User talk:Epbr123|talk]]) 19:37, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''' meets the [[WP:PORNBIO|requirements]] of the lastest version of PORNBIO, as set by consensus.  We're always welcome to revist this article after other portions of PORNBIO are removed through a consensus, and then judge notability per [[WP:ANYBIO]]'s instructions toward well-known awards... and we will argue then whether or not a film award notable to its genre has any merit.  23:07, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
-*'''Speedy close''' of bad faith nomination per the AN/I discussion mentioned above. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:The Bushranger|One ping only]]</font></sub> 00:17, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
+*'''Speedy close''' of bad faith nomination per the AN/I discussion mentioned above. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] <sub>[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color:maroon;">One ping only</span>]]</sub> 00:17, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 ::Please explain why you consider this a bad faith nomination? [[User:OrenBochman|BO]] &#124; [[User talk:OrenBochman|Talk]] 00:38, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
@@ Line 82: / Line 89: @@
 Comment: CAVR is an award given by a website. This is not an industry award either [[User:OrenBochman|BO]] &#124; [[User talk:OrenBochman|Talk]] 00:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 *'''Speedy Keep''' per [[WP:POINT]]. [[User:DarkAudit|DarkAudit]] ([[User talk:DarkAudit|talk]]) 05:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
-*'''Keep'''. Nomination is based on a failed understanding of what the policies mean and how they are applied. Clearly meets the inclusion criteria. <font color="#E66C2C">[[User:QuiteUnusual|'''QU''']]</font> <sup><font color="#306754">[[User talk:QuiteUnusual|TalkQu]]</font></sup> 09:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
+*'''Keep'''. Nomination is based on a failed understanding of what the policies mean and how they are applied. Clearly meets the inclusion criteria. [[User:QuiteUnusual|<b style="color:#E66C2C;">QU</b>]] [[User talk:QuiteUnusual|<sup style="color:#306754;">TalkQu</sup>]] 09:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''' Individual appears to pass [[WP:PORNBIO]].  Fine piece of Wikilawyering, though.  I mean that in a positive light. [[User:Roodog2k|Roodog2k]] ([[User talk:Roodog2k|talk]]) 18:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''', at least for now. The nominator's concerns about sourcing and BLP issues are certainly sound, but the current consensus has been that a stub article like this which recites an adequate set of well-known/significant awards/nominations is not so inadequate as to result in deletion. [[User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|Hullaballoo Wolfowitz]] ([[User talk:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|talk]]) 16:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
-:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>