Talk:Michael Jackson: Difference between revisions
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|itn1date=22 April 2004 |
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell| blpo=yes |1= |
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|itn2date=25 June 2009 |
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{{WikiProject Michael Jackson|class=FA|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography |living=no |class=FA |listas=Jackson, Michael |
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{{WikiProject R&B and Soul Music|class=FA|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Rock music|class=FA|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Dance|class=FA|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject African diaspora|class=FA|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Janet Jackson|class=FA |importance=low}} |
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{{WikiProject California|class=FA|importance=low}} |
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{{WikiProject Television|class=FA|importance=low}} <!-- music video revolutionary - music video as short film (Thriller) --> |
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{{WikiProject United States |class=FA |importance=high |listas=Jackson, Michael |
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|USMusic=yes |USMusic-importance=top |IN=yes |IN-importance=Mid |
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{{Notice|Please read and understand [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]], [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]], and [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources]] ''before'' making additions to this article, or making suggested additions on this article's talk page. Additions made without references which meet this criteria may be deleted. Audio sources & self-published sources are only allowed under certain circumstances: |
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{{WikiProject Michael Jackson|importance=Top}} |
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* Allowed audio sources: [[WP:Identifying_reliable_sources#Overview]]; Allowed self-published sources: [[WP:SPS]], [[WP:ABOUTSELF]], [[WP:Identifying_reliable_sources#Statements_of_opinion]] |
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{{WikiProject Biography|filmbio-work-group=yes |filmbio-priority=Low |musician-work-group=yes |musician-priority=Top |core=yes}} |
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* Also be aware of:[[WP:NOTBATTLE]], [[WP:Wikilawyering]], [[WP:PG]], [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:BIAS]] |
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{{WikiProject Business|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Pop music|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject R&B and Soul Music|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Record Production|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Rock music|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Dance|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject African diaspora|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Janet Jackson|importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject California|importance=mid|southerncalifornia=yes|southerncalifornia-importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject United States|importance=high|USMusic=yes|USMusic-importance=top|IN=yes|IN-importance=Mid|USTV=yes|USTV-importance=mid|portal1-name=United States|portal1-link=Selected culture biography/21}} |
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|author=[[Declan McCullagh|McCullagh, Declan]] |date=June 25, 2009 |url= http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10273277-93.html |title=Michael Jackson's death roils Wikipedia |org=''[[CNET Networks]]'' |
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{{press |
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|author=[[Declan McCullagh|McCullagh, Declan]] |date=June 25, 2009 |
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|url= http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10273277-93.html |
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|title=Michael Jackson's death roils Wikipedia |org=''[[CNET Networks]]'' |
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|author2=Rawlinson, Linnie |date2=June 25, 2009 |
|author2=Rawlinson, Linnie |date2=June 25, 2009 |url2= http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/26/michael.jackson.internet/index.html |title2=Jackson dies, almost takes Internet with him |org2=''[[CNN]]'' |
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|url2= http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/26/michael.jackson.internet/index.html |
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|title2=Jackson dies, almost takes Internet with him |org2=''[[CNN]]'' |
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|author3=Boyd, E.B. |date3=June 27, 2009 |url3= http://web.archive.org/web/20090629065332/http://www.mediabistro.com/baynewser/wikipedia/wikipedia_tech_team_learns_about_king_of_pops_death_when_their_servers_crash_120046.asp |title3=Wikipedia Tech Team Learns About King of Pop, Rock, and Soul Death When Their Servers Crash |org3=''[[Mediabistro.com]]'' |
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|author3=Boyd, E.B. |date3=June 27, 2009 |
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|url3= http://www.mediabistro.com/baynewser/wikipedia/wikipedia_tech_team_learns_about_king_of_pops_death_when_their_servers_crash_120046.asp |
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|title3=Wikipedia Tech Team Learns About King of Pop, Rock, and Soul Death When Their Servers Crash |org3=''[[Mediabistro.com]]'' |
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|author4=Shiels, Maggie |date4=June 28, 2009 |
|author4=Shiels, Maggie |date4=June 28, 2009 |url4= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8120324.stm |title4=Web slows after Jackson's death |org4=''[[BBC News]]'' |
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|url4= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8120324.stm |
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|title4=Web slows after Jackson's death |org4=''[[BBC News]]'' |
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|author5=Cohen, Noam |date5=June 26, 2009 |url5= http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06//with-jackson-entry-wikipedia-may-have-set-a-record/ |title5=With Jackson Entry, Wikipedia May Have Set a Record |org5=''[[The New York Times]]'' |
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|author5=Cohen, Noam |date5=June 26, 2009 |
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|url5= http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06//with-jackson-entry-wikipedia-may-have-set-a-record/ |
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|title5=With Jackson Entry, Wikipedia May Have Set a Record |
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|org5=''[[The New York Times]]'' |
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|author6=Cohen, Noam |date6=July 19, 2009 |
|author6=Cohen, Noam |date6=July 19, 2009 |url6= http://nytimes.com/2009/07/20/arts/20funny.html |title6=Wikipedia May Be a Font of Facts, but It’s a Desert for Photos |org6=''[[The New York Times]]'' |
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|url6= http://nytimes.com/2009/07/20/arts/20funny.html |
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|title6=Wikipedia May Be a Font of Facts, but It’s a Desert for Photos |
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|org6=''[[The New York Times]]'' |
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|date7=August 17, 2009 |url7= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html |title7=The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008 |org7=''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'' |author7=(none) |
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|date7=August 17, 2009 |
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|url7= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/6043534/The-50-most-viewed-Wikipedia-articles-in-2009-and-2008.html |
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|title7=The 50 most-viewed Wikipedia articles in 2009 and 2008 |
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|org7=''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'' |author7=(none) |
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|date8=October 12, 2012 |url8= http://www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/914761-edits-on-winehouse-skrillex-and-wile-e-coyote-the-role-of-a-wikipedian#ixzz296Ks68 |title8=Edits on Winehouse, Skrillex and Wile E Coyote: The role of a Wikipedian |org8=''Metro'' |
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|date8=October 12, 2012 |
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|url8= http://www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/914761-edits-on-winehouse-skrillex-and-wile-e-coyote-the-role-of-a-wikipedian#ixzz296Ks68 |
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|date9=June 11, 2014 |url9=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/06/11/the-most-influential-person-on-wikipedia-is-someone-youve-probably-never-heard-of/ |title9=The most influential person on Wikipedia is someone you’ve probably never heard of |org9= ''[[Washington Post]]'' |
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|title8=Edits on Winehouse, Skrillex and Wile E Coyote: The role of a Wikipedian |
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}} |
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|org8=''Metro'' |
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{{Annual report|[[Wikipedia:2009 Top 50 Report|2009]], [[Wikipedia:2010 Top 50 Report|2010]], and [[Wikipedia:2011 Top 50 Report|2011]]}} |
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{{Top 25 Report|Apr 17 2016|Aug 26 2018|Mar 3 2019|Mar 10 2019}} |
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== |
== Main image change == |
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{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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he donated more than 300 million dollars to charity. |
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<!-- End request --> |
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[[User:Saikrishnan78|Saikrishnan78]] ([[User talk:Saikrishnan78|talk]]) 08:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC) |
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:{{ESp|rs}} '''[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]''' ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 10:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== Edit request on 11 December 2012 == |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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How is whether the heal the world foundation was shut down relevant to his overall contributions to charity. I think this information should be placed in the "contents" section.[[User:Billydeecooper|Billydeecooper]] ([[User talk:Billydeecooper|talk]]) |
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01:50, 11 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== Pianist == |
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Michael Jackson was not a professional pianist. This is not a controversial statement. It's a very basic fact. Now, in pop music, there are many singers who are also professional pianists: [[Randy Newman]], [[Billy Joel]], [[Elton John]], [[Rufus Wainwright]], [[Stevie Wonder]], and [[Ray Charles]] are all good examples. But Jackson is not an example of one of these singer-pianists. Jackson is a wonderful singer, no doubt. But it is very misleading to list him as a piano player. |
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*For better or worse, the commonly accepted Wikipedia standard seems to be to describe celebrities in terms of pretty much everything they've ever done in the public sphere. That's why [[Bruce Willis]] is listed as a "musician," for example.[[User:Flourdustedhazzn|Flourdustedhazzn]] ([[User talk:Flourdustedhazzn|talk]]) 08:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== Associated acts == |
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[[File:Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993 (cropped).jpg|right|160x160px]] I changed the main image of Michael Jackson to File:Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993.jpg. This photo is way better then the previous photo, which is low-quality, grainy and black and white. This photo is high-quality and color, along with showing Jackson during his most popular tour. [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 18:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Michael Jackson was also associated with [[Diana Ross]], [[Stevie Wonder]], [[USA for Africa]], [[Janet Jackson]] and a lot more people. Somebody type down these people. It's not like MJ was the King of Nothing. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/100.40.7.210|100.40.7.210]] ([[User talk:100.40.7.210|talk]]) 20:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Seek consensus first. I have reverted this change. <b>[[User:GSK|GSK]]</b> <small>([[User_talk:GSK|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/GSK|edits]])</small> 19:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Funeral broadcast == |
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:Well then should we change it [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 19:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:Your right in my honest opinion! [[Special:Contributions/2600:1002:B1AE:67AE:5D14:770D:7A40:5611|2600:1002:B1AE:67AE:5D14:770D:7A40:5611]] ([[User talk:2600:1002:B1AE:67AE:5D14:770D:7A40:5611|talk]]) 00:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Infobox Image == |
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The article currently contends that over one billion people watched the broadcast of Mr. Jackson's funeral. The citation meant to support this astounding claim actually insists that the number was somewhere between 2.5 and 3 billion people. Given the obvious falsehood of this claim, the citation should be deleted. Ideally, so should the claim, since it is preposterous. [[User:Flourdustedhazzn|Flourdustedhazzn]] ([[User talk:Flourdustedhazzn|talk]]) 08:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::Agree - reworded "Jackson's death triggered a global outpouring of grief and a live broadcast of the public memorial service viewed around the world" - lets see what others say.[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 03:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC) |
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Since my last post has not really got a response and is also kind of old, I am making a second comment also requesting that we change the image of Michael Jackson to the one on the right. A high-quality, color image taken during Michael Jackson's most popular tour. I feel this would be a good replacement to the grainy photo that is black-and-white and low quality of Jackson. [[File:Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993 (cropped).jpg|200x200px|center]] [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 01:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== <big>'''Did Michael Jackson really sell more than 750 million units?'''</big> == |
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:{{nd}} the copyright status for that (along with [[:File:Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993.jpg]] which it was cropped from) has been contested and could be deleted soon, so find something that's free instead. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 02:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC) |
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According to several [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources|secondary sources]] the total amount of ''[[Thriller (album)|Thriller]]'' album sales, as well as the total sales of all his musical work, are wrong. Throughout time, numerous contradicting figures have been published, that we should consider before making any final claim. |
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::Ok, I feel that this image needs to be replaced soon since it is so low quality and grainy and there is most definitely a better alternative out there since Jackson was probably the most famous person for a few years [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 21:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== We should update the main image == |
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;Some sources, listed chronologically |
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The main image is a grainy, black and white (which I believe makes an image worse when there is color alternatives), and overall low quality. The problem is many images of Jackson on Wikimedia Commons are not really high quality. Any actually high quality ones (including two images below), are being nominated due to copyrighted issues. Here are two examples: |
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*Tour Dates [UK] ('''2004''') [http://www.tourdates.co.uk/news/4548-rarities-unearthed-for-new-michael-jackson-release '''135''' million] albums (including 47 million alone for ''Thriller'') |
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<gallery> |
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Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993.jpg |
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Michael Jackson 1983.jpg |
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</gallery> |
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So here are the highest quality images I could find, from highest to lowest quality. Please know that I believe that color is better, but other factors like quality (including amount of grain, quality of image scan, and image size) also apply |
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<gallery> |
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Michael Jackson, Victory Tour, Arrowhead Stadium, 1984.jpg|1 |
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Michael Jackson 1988.jpg|2 (best of other Alan Light photos of Jackson) |
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2003 Michael Jackson at The Cable Show (29358712934) (1).jpg|3 |
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Michael Jackson with the Reagans (cropped).jpg|4 |
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Michael Jackson Cannes.jpg|5 |
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Michael Jackson (21211088815) (cropped).jpg|6 |
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George H. W. Bush with Michael Jackson (cropped).png|7 |
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Michael Jackson in Vegas cropped-3.jpg|8 |
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Michael Jackson1 1988.jpg|9 |
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Michael Jackson in 1988.jpg|10 |
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</gallery> |
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If we are to choose another image, which I strongly believe should be the case since 1-9 are better than 10 (the current main image), which should we do? |
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[[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 20:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:You're misusing the words "objective" and "objectively" here when whether certain pictures are better than others is an inherently subjective matter, so please don't treat your personal opinions as facts. Regardless, my preference of these would be image#7 for giving a clear front view of his face and isn't black-and-white like some of the other listings. [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 22:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::I believe that 2 should be used because of how high quality it is compared to other images [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 22:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::4 has been used in the past and is my choice.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 07:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::7 is my pick per the SNUGGUMS arguments. I think it is more recent and more recognisable than image #4 [[User:TheWikiholic|TheWikiholic]] ([[User talk:TheWikiholic|talk]]) 14:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Ok [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 20:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::I oppose #7; it doesn't have a clear view of his face due to his sunglasses. #3, #4, and #8 are disqualified for the same reason. #5, #6, and #9 have strange expressions. #10 is good, but not ideal because of a poor view of his face. #1 has good potential if cropped, and #2 is probably the best overall despite his atypical outfit. My favorite of all is [[:File:Michael Jackson 1983.jpg]], mentioned above, if it survives copyright challenges. — [[User:Goszei|Goszei]] ([[User_talk:Goszei|talk]]) 15:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:I support #7, and I agree with @[[User:SNUGGUMS|SNUGGUMS]]'s statement. Although I don't think it is imperatively necessary to change the current image; but if it were to be done, I think #7 is the only suitable one, and it is a good option for the future considering, among other reasons, that it is in color. |
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:Apart from that, I am going to give my opinion on why I think some of the others are not valid at all. The optimal thing to do in a case like Jackson's, considering that he is one of the most public people the world knew and that it is easy for anyone to recognize him, is to choose a picture that represents what he is known for (i.e. music artist); that's why it is not appropriate to use as the main picture something that is part of his non-artistic life, like [[:File:Michaeljacksonmug1 (cropped).jpg|the mugshot]] or #2 (where he is not exercising as an entertainer, and he is not even wearing clothes that represent his artistic persona, just as if it were a picture at home in his pyjamas. It's a picture with close friends where he's wearing a [[Hilton Hotels & Resorts|Hilton Hotels]] cap...). I consider picture #6 to be of very low quality taking into account the other options and I don't find #3 and #8 to be good choices, because they show Jackson in his last years of life, and it is always preferable (as has been done in other cases, such as Queen [[Elizabeth II]]) to choose a picture from the "in-between" part of the subject's life. #1, #4, #5, #5, #7 and #10 are valid and appropriate pictures to be used as the main picture in this article, but I consider #7 and #10 (the one currently used) to be the best choices considering that they are better representing Jackson at an in-between time in his life. [[User:Salvabl|Salvabl]] ([[User talk:Salvabl|talk]]) 02:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::I disagree, number 10 is the lowest qauality picture of Jackson, and each of the reasons you give make sense, but a side profile of Jackson that is low quality does not make for a better representation of the subject in most cases. I thought we should have done 2, but 4 and 7 are fine too, with all in high quality color [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 18:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::How would i go about acquiring the right to use a image of him for this page? Who do i contact? [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 00:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:The most famous photo we have is the one set during the Dangerous world tour in his Jam outfit, however there's apparently issues with that one. Of the remaining options, his estate currently uses a image of MJ from the Bad world tour as his profile picture across their social media platforms but the one we got is in black in white and not very high quality. The only other option i think would be suitable is #7 as it's a photo of him receiving the artist of the decade award at the white house in high quality. This was set between the Bad and Dangerous era's of his career when he was at his arguable peak and is fitting for his biographical page. [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 03:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC) |
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: In my opinion, the press photo from 1983 <small>(Michael Jackson 1983.jpg) </small> should be used, it's well-lit, copyright free and is arguably of the highest quality of all of the images there.[[User:PHShanghai|PHShanghai | they/them]] ([[User talk:PHShanghai|talk]]) 00:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::That will work [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Never17|Never17]] Please don't change the photo without consensus. [[User:Alyo|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Alyo</span>]] ''([[User talk:Alyo|<b style="font-family:courier; font-size:small">chat</b>]]·[[Special:Contributions/Alyo|<b style="font-family:courier; font-size:small">edits</b>]])'' 01:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I didn't change anything, i just agreed with what the other guy said [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I have no idea how to do it, but can someone start an RfC or something that will have a more significant way to change it [[User:Wcamp9|Wcamp9]] ([[User talk:Wcamp9|talk]]) 21:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I would love to find someway to acquire copyright rights for some high quality images to use for this page, i don't know how to do that though. Maybe a admin here would know [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 21:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== wrong date == |
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*[[Pitchfork Media]] (November, '''2004''') [http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/4350-the-ultimate-collection/ '''150''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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Ghosts was Premiered at 1997 Cannes Film Festival, not 1996 [[User:Nomoresambo|Nomoresambo]] ([[User talk:Nomoresambo|talk]]) 15:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*[[BBC News]] ('''2005''') [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4730407.stm '''135''' million] albums |
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== Cause of Death == |
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*Pitchfork Media ('''2005''') [http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/4351-the-essential-michael-jackson/ '''150''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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Since a criminal trial was held and the judge came to a decision that Jackson's death wasn't a accident but a result of criminal homicide (murder), should we add a note or something to let people know this wasn't a accidental overdose but a murder? We also have lots of reports stating Jackson was mostly healthy at the time of his death which lead to the decision. |
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*[[Daily News and Analysis]] ('''2009''') [http://www.dnaindia.com/entertainment/report_what-made-michael-jackson-a-legend_1269226 '''300''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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[https://www.spin.com/2011/11/conrad-murray-sentenced-four-years-prison-death-michael-jackson/ This was “'''a criminal homicide case'''” rather than a malpractice case, the judge said.] |
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*[[China Daily]] ('''2009''') [http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/2009-06/27/content_8330241.htm '''300''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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[https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/aug/28/michael-jackson-homicide Michael Jackson's death officially ruled a homicide - The Guardian] |
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*[[Daily Telegraph]] ('''2009''') [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/michael-jackson/5649814/Michael-Jackson-100-facts-about-the-king-of-pop.html '''300''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/autopsy-michael-jackson-was-healthy/ Michael Jackson was healthy at the time of death, rules Autospy Report] |
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*[[CNN]] ('''2009''') [http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/25/michael.jackson.world/index.html '''350''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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[[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 18:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*[[Jam!]] / [[Canoe.ca]] / [[World Entertainment News Network]]('''2009''') [http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/2009/06/26/9944301-wenn-story.html '''300''' million] '''<font color="green">''records''</font>''' |
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:Conrad Murray was convicted of [[Manslaughter_(United_States_law)#Involuntary_manslaughter|involuntary manslaughter]]. This isn't a cause of death, which is correctly stated in the infobox here as acute propofol intoxication. Over at [[Death of Michael Jackson]], the infobox gives the cause of death as "Accidental homicide by acute propofol intoxication". This is perhaps more accurate and could be added to the infobox. Jackson was not murdered, because Murray's actions were considered to be negligent or reckless rather than a deliberate act.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 20:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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These are the sources that we also should take in consideration (some, because there are other more): |
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::Got it, i agree [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:A homicide but not a murder. Any illegal causing of human death is a homicide, which is then divided into categories. All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders. This was legally a homicide but was not a murder. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C|2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C]] ([[User talk:2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C|talk]]) 02:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Wrong link to "robot" in the intro == |
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*''[[Wall Street Journal]]'': |
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Should be linked to [[Robot (dance)]]; instead it's linked to the page for actual robots. [[Special:Contributions/2601:188:C801:4FF0:C0E2:D238:FB34:848C|2601:188:C801:4FF0:C0E2:D238:FB34:848C]] ([[User talk:2601:188:C801:4FF0:C0E2:D238:FB34:848C|talk]]) 02:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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According, the ''[[Wall Street Journal]]'', the claim that Michael Jackson sold around 750 million, is an inflated figure which was originally stated [http://web.archive.org/web/20080905074518/http://kingofpop.info/news/2006/10/31/michael-to-give-away-200-free-tickets-to-fans-and-discounted-rates/ in 2006] by a [[primary source]], [[Raymone Bain]], who was the singer publicist at that time, without any factual evidence and probably in an effort to promote album sales. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124760651612341407.html Reference]. Later, this exaggerated figure was included in [http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/how-many-albums-did-michael-jackson-sell-755/ Wikipedia] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Jackson&diff=next&oldid=85420597 citing] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Michael_Jackson&oldid=96840904#cite_note-10 a fansite] ([http://web.archive.org/web/20070120224130/http://www.exclusivemj.com/news/2006/10/31/michael-to-give-away-200-free-tickets-to-fans-and-discounted-rates/ Exclusivemj] or [http://www.mjtmc.com/news/details.aspx?lang=EN&module=AHAA&baseModule=AHAA&news_id=1062&page=1 MJTMC]) as the source of the information (clearly a primary and a non-reliable reference according to Wikipedia standards). At that moment, this piece of information was published on Wikipedia, it turned into a fact that various sources adopted without contrasting it with more serious and reliable sources, as is the case of MTV and [http://www.billboard.com/news/michael-jackson-s-partial-comeback-is-no-1003408870.story#/news/michael-jackson-s-partial-comeback-is-no-1003408870.story Billboard] in 2006. In 2009, at the moment of Michael Jackson death and funeral, this figure was restated once more by several reliable and non-reliable sources, supporting their statements on Wikipedia and Raymone Bain. |
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:{{done}} thank you for pointing out that error! [[User:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b>]] ([[User talk:SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">talk</b>]] / [[Special:Contributions/SNUGGUMS|<b style="color:#009900">edits</b>]]) 02:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Middle name == |
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*[[ImpreMedia]]: |
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I have seen in various sources that his legal middle name was "Joe" rather than "Joseph" (and the Michael-is-alive people point to "Joseph" on the death certificate as evidence he did not really die). But does anyone have a RS for his actual middle name, one way or the other? [[Special:Contributions/2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C|2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C]] ([[User talk:2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C|talk]]) 02:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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[[ImpreMedia]], is another source that states that the 750 million sold is an [http://www.impre.com/la-gente-dice/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978979962 statistical fallacy]. |
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== Child molestation allegations. == |
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*[[International Federation of the Phonographic Industry]] (IFPI): |
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Leaving Never Land, testimony from his victims [[Special:Contributions/2603:7000:BEF0:2B60:D82C:3BE3:EE9D:F1C5|2603:7000:BEF0:2B60:D82C:3BE3:EE9D:F1C5]] ([[User talk:2603:7000:BEF0:2B60:D82C:3BE3:EE9D:F1C5|talk]]) 07:25, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Adrian Strain, a musical expert and a representative from the [[International Federation of the Phonographic Industry]] (IFPI) has said: When we were asked how many albums Michael Jackson sold, we were as embarrassed as anybody. We had to go to the [[Guinness Book of World Records]]." This statement demonstrate that even the musical industry, has difficulty finding the real amount of albums sold, which cause them to repeatedly commit mistakes. |
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:Jackson's allegations have their own page, furthermore the "accusers" were people who had previously defended him under oath in a court of law or to law enforcement and various contradictions were exposed. They are largely discredited, the only case that is a point of contention is the 1993 accusation due to the nature of the settlement. That in fact is mentioned in depth here [[User:Never17|Never17]] ([[User talk:Never17|talk]]) 01:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Therefore, as there are reliable secondary sources that state that the 750 million units sold is a true fact, there are sources that state the contrary. In an effort to keep the neutrality and reliability of the article I suggest the addition of a note next to the 750 million statement (350-400 million), as follows:. |
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It’s already covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson#Posthumous_child_sexual_abuse_allegations |
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{{Quote|According to the ''[[Wall Street Journal]]'' and other newspapers, the 750 million units sold by Michael Jackson is an inflated figure that was initially claimed by [[Raymone Bain]], who was the singer publicist at that time, without any factual evidence and probably in an effort to promote album sales. From 2006 until present time, several sources such as [[MTV]], [[Reuters]] and ''[[Billboard]]'' have claimed that Michael Jackson has sold 750 million units, however, Adrian Strain, a representative from the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI) has said that this figure is unreal. <nowiki>(ref=, ref=, ref=....)</nowiki>}} |
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BTW, please note that its’ only ”alleged victims”. Journalists have uncovered several contradictions (and possible untruths) in the Leaving Neverland film (you can give this podcast a listen, then make up your own mind: https://www.michaeljacksoncaseforinnocence.com). <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/37.96.7.161|37.96.7.161]] ([[User talk:37.96.7.161#top|talk]]) 22:03, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Forbes 2024 == |
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In that way we will prevent biased information and allow the readers to judge by themselves what to believe. We don’t have to act as judges of the information, we have to present both realities and let the readers decide what to think and what to do with both facts. Is our obligation as contributors and writers of Wikipedia to present information with all its sides and shades, and to be truthful. We don’t have to cherry-pick statements, we have to show all that’s in front of us, especially when it comes from reliable and trustworthy sources. |
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Hi, |
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Thanks. Best regards, [[User:Chrishonduras|Chrishonduras]] ([[User talk:Chrishonduras|talk]]) 19:26, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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Forbes just re-elected Michael Jackson as top-earning Dead Celebrity. |
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Could someone with editing rights please update 2023 to 2024 in |
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''Forbes has consistently recognized Jackson as one of the top-earning dead celebrities since his death, and placed him at the top spot from 2013 to 2023.'' |
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Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2024/10/29/the-highest-paid-dead-celebrities-of-2024/ |
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Thank you! :-) [[Special:Contributions/37.96.7.161|37.96.7.161]] ([[User talk:37.96.7.161|talk]]) 22:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 06:45, 9 December 2024
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Michael Jackson article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Michael Jackson. To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Should the article mention reports that Michael Jackson was Muslim? (No.)
A1: No. The article should not mention reports that Michael Jackson was Muslim. Jackson had not publicly spoken about his exact religion in a number of years and only spoke about spirituality in general terms. The specific reports of a conversion ceremony for Jackson have been denied by his New York lawyer Londell McMillan.[1] They were also denied by Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens[2] and Dawud Wharnsby[3] who were allegedly present at the ceremony. The Michael Jackson memorial service did not involve any Islamic rites. Without further details from his family or representatives, it will not be included in the article. Q2: Should the "Jacko" name be mentioned in the lead? (No.)
A2: No. The "Jacko" name should not be mentioned in the lead. Past consensus goes against such inclusion. The name is a derogatory term used primarily by US/UK/Australian tabloids. The slogan is discussed in the relevant section of the article. Q3: Should the article mention that Jackson reportedly had cancer/blindness/liver disease/AIDS, etc.? (No.)
A3: No.
The article should not mention that Jackson reportedly had cancer, blindness, liver disease, AIDS, etc. Until such claims are confirmed by a Jackson representative it will not go in the article at all. These claims are largely fabricated by tabloids. Q4: Should the article mention that Jackson reportedly had a secret child called Omer Bhatti? (No.)
A4: No.
This claim was denied by Bhatti [4] and only a DNA test would resolve the matter. Q5: Isn't Jackson the seventh child of the Jackson family, not the eighth? (No.)
A5: No.
Marlon had a twin, Brandon, who died shortly after birth. This makes Michael the eighth child. |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Michael Jackson's religion was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 16 November 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Michael Jackson. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Main image change
[edit]I changed the main image of Michael Jackson to File:Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993.jpg. This photo is way better then the previous photo, which is low-quality, grainy and black and white. This photo is high-quality and color, along with showing Jackson during his most popular tour. Wcamp9 (talk) 18:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Seek consensus first. I have reverted this change. GSK (talk • edits) 19:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Well then should we change it Wcamp9 (talk) 19:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Your right in my honest opinion! 2600:1002:B1AE:67AE:5D14:770D:7A40:5611 (talk) 00:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Infobox Image
[edit]Since my last post has not really got a response and is also kind of old, I am making a second comment also requesting that we change the image of Michael Jackson to the one on the right. A high-quality, color image taken during Michael Jackson's most popular tour. I feel this would be a good replacement to the grainy photo that is black-and-white and low quality of Jackson.
Wcamp9 (talk) 01:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not done the copyright status for that (along with File:Michael Jackson Dangerous World Tour 1993.jpg which it was cropped from) has been contested and could be deleted soon, so find something that's free instead. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, I feel that this image needs to be replaced soon since it is so low quality and grainy and there is most definitely a better alternative out there since Jackson was probably the most famous person for a few years Wcamp9 (talk) 21:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
We should update the main image
[edit]The main image is a grainy, black and white (which I believe makes an image worse when there is color alternatives), and overall low quality. The problem is many images of Jackson on Wikimedia Commons are not really high quality. Any actually high quality ones (including two images below), are being nominated due to copyrighted issues. Here are two examples:
So here are the highest quality images I could find, from highest to lowest quality. Please know that I believe that color is better, but other factors like quality (including amount of grain, quality of image scan, and image size) also apply
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1
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2 (best of other Alan Light photos of Jackson)
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3
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4
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5
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6
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7
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8
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9
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10
If we are to choose another image, which I strongly believe should be the case since 1-9 are better than 10 (the current main image), which should we do? Wcamp9 (talk) 20:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- You're misusing the words "objective" and "objectively" here when whether certain pictures are better than others is an inherently subjective matter, so please don't treat your personal opinions as facts. Regardless, my preference of these would be image#7 for giving a clear front view of his face and isn't black-and-white like some of the other listings. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- I believe that 2 should be used because of how high quality it is compared to other images Wcamp9 (talk) 22:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- 4 has been used in the past and is my choice.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
- 7 is my pick per the SNUGGUMS arguments. I think it is more recent and more recognisable than image #4 TheWikiholic (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose #7; it doesn't have a clear view of his face due to his sunglasses. #3, #4, and #8 are disqualified for the same reason. #5, #6, and #9 have strange expressions. #10 is good, but not ideal because of a poor view of his face. #1 has good potential if cropped, and #2 is probably the best overall despite his atypical outfit. My favorite of all is File:Michael Jackson 1983.jpg, mentioned above, if it survives copyright challenges. — Goszei (talk) 15:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- I believe that 2 should be used because of how high quality it is compared to other images Wcamp9 (talk) 22:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- I support #7, and I agree with @SNUGGUMS's statement. Although I don't think it is imperatively necessary to change the current image; but if it were to be done, I think #7 is the only suitable one, and it is a good option for the future considering, among other reasons, that it is in color.
- Apart from that, I am going to give my opinion on why I think some of the others are not valid at all. The optimal thing to do in a case like Jackson's, considering that he is one of the most public people the world knew and that it is easy for anyone to recognize him, is to choose a picture that represents what he is known for (i.e. music artist); that's why it is not appropriate to use as the main picture something that is part of his non-artistic life, like the mugshot or #2 (where he is not exercising as an entertainer, and he is not even wearing clothes that represent his artistic persona, just as if it were a picture at home in his pyjamas. It's a picture with close friends where he's wearing a Hilton Hotels cap...). I consider picture #6 to be of very low quality taking into account the other options and I don't find #3 and #8 to be good choices, because they show Jackson in his last years of life, and it is always preferable (as has been done in other cases, such as Queen Elizabeth II) to choose a picture from the "in-between" part of the subject's life. #1, #4, #5, #5, #7 and #10 are valid and appropriate pictures to be used as the main picture in this article, but I consider #7 and #10 (the one currently used) to be the best choices considering that they are better representing Jackson at an in-between time in his life. Salvabl (talk) 02:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree, number 10 is the lowest qauality picture of Jackson, and each of the reasons you give make sense, but a side profile of Jackson that is low quality does not make for a better representation of the subject in most cases. I thought we should have done 2, but 4 and 7 are fine too, with all in high quality color Wcamp9 (talk) 18:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- How would i go about acquiring the right to use a image of him for this page? Who do i contact? Never17 (talk) 00:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- The most famous photo we have is the one set during the Dangerous world tour in his Jam outfit, however there's apparently issues with that one. Of the remaining options, his estate currently uses a image of MJ from the Bad world tour as his profile picture across their social media platforms but the one we got is in black in white and not very high quality. The only other option i think would be suitable is #7 as it's a photo of him receiving the artist of the decade award at the white house in high quality. This was set between the Bad and Dangerous era's of his career when he was at his arguable peak and is fitting for his biographical page. Never17 (talk) 03:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the press photo from 1983 (Michael Jackson 1983.jpg) should be used, it's well-lit, copyright free and is arguably of the highest quality of all of the images there.PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 00:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- That will work Never17 (talk) 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Never17 Please don't change the photo without consensus. Alyo (chat·edits) 01:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't change anything, i just agreed with what the other guy said Never17 (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- I have no idea how to do it, but can someone start an RfC or something that will have a more significant way to change it Wcamp9 (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would love to find someway to acquire copyright rights for some high quality images to use for this page, i don't know how to do that though. Maybe a admin here would know Never17 (talk) 21:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have no idea how to do it, but can someone start an RfC or something that will have a more significant way to change it Wcamp9 (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't change anything, i just agreed with what the other guy said Never17 (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Never17 Please don't change the photo without consensus. Alyo (chat·edits) 01:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- That will work Never17 (talk) 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
wrong date
[edit]Ghosts was Premiered at 1997 Cannes Film Festival, not 1996 Nomoresambo (talk) 15:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Cause of Death
[edit]Since a criminal trial was held and the judge came to a decision that Jackson's death wasn't a accident but a result of criminal homicide (murder), should we add a note or something to let people know this wasn't a accidental overdose but a murder? We also have lots of reports stating Jackson was mostly healthy at the time of his death which lead to the decision.
This was “a criminal homicide case” rather than a malpractice case, the judge said.
Michael Jackson's death officially ruled a homicide - The Guardian
Michael Jackson was healthy at the time of death, rules Autospy Report
Never17 (talk) 18:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Conrad Murray was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. This isn't a cause of death, which is correctly stated in the infobox here as acute propofol intoxication. Over at Death of Michael Jackson, the infobox gives the cause of death as "Accidental homicide by acute propofol intoxication". This is perhaps more accurate and could be added to the infobox. Jackson was not murdered, because Murray's actions were considered to be negligent or reckless rather than a deliberate act.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 20:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Got it, i agree Never17 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- A homicide but not a murder. Any illegal causing of human death is a homicide, which is then divided into categories. All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders. This was legally a homicide but was not a murder. 2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C (talk) 02:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Wrong link to "robot" in the intro
[edit]Should be linked to Robot (dance); instead it's linked to the page for actual robots. 2601:188:C801:4FF0:C0E2:D238:FB34:848C (talk) 02:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done thank you for pointing out that error! SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Middle name
[edit]I have seen in various sources that his legal middle name was "Joe" rather than "Joseph" (and the Michael-is-alive people point to "Joseph" on the death certificate as evidence he did not really die). But does anyone have a RS for his actual middle name, one way or the other? 2600:1011:B023:AC6E:19E9:4C7A:2DF4:1A4C (talk) 02:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Child molestation allegations.
[edit]Leaving Never Land, testimony from his victims 2603:7000:BEF0:2B60:D82C:3BE3:EE9D:F1C5 (talk) 07:25, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Jackson's allegations have their own page, furthermore the "accusers" were people who had previously defended him under oath in a court of law or to law enforcement and various contradictions were exposed. They are largely discredited, the only case that is a point of contention is the 1993 accusation due to the nature of the settlement. That in fact is mentioned in depth here Never17 (talk) 01:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
It’s already covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson#Posthumous_child_sexual_abuse_allegations BTW, please note that its’ only ”alleged victims”. Journalists have uncovered several contradictions (and possible untruths) in the Leaving Neverland film (you can give this podcast a listen, then make up your own mind: https://www.michaeljacksoncaseforinnocence.com). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.96.7.161 (talk) 22:03, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Forbes 2024
[edit]Hi, Forbes just re-elected Michael Jackson as top-earning Dead Celebrity. Could someone with editing rights please update 2023 to 2024 in Forbes has consistently recognized Jackson as one of the top-earning dead celebrities since his death, and placed him at the top spot from 2013 to 2023. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2024/10/29/the-highest-paid-dead-celebrities-of-2024/ Thank you! :-) 37.96.7.161 (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
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