Jump to content

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities: Difference between revisions

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
SineBot (talk | contribs)
m Signing comment by Karzaf - "hamid karzai departure from afhganistan: new section"
Scsbot (talk | contribs)
edited by robot: archiving December 25
 
Line 1: Line 1:
<noinclude>{{Wikipedia:Reference desk/header|WP:RD/H}}{{pp-move-indef}}
<noinclude>{{Wikipedia:Reference desk/header|WP:RD/H}}
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed]]
[[Category:Pages automatically checked for incorrect links]]
[[Category:Pages automatically checked for accidental language links]]
[[Category:Wikipedia resources for researchers]]
[[Category:Wikipedia resources for researchers]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help forums]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help forums]]
[[Category:Wikipedia reference desk|Humanities]]
[[Category:Wikipedia reference desk|Humanities]]
[[Category:Wikipedia help pages with dated sections]]
</noinclude>
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed]]</noinclude>


= December 26 =
{{Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 13}}


== What would the president Trump brokered peace treaty in Ukraine look like? ==
{{Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 14}}


I know this is probably speculation, but going by what I've read in a few articles - how would the new president sort this out?
{{Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 15}}


- the war stops
= June 16 =


- Russia withdraws all troops from the invaded regions of Ukraine
== Does anybody know the date of the 2014 British Titanic Society Convention? ==


- Ukraine withdraws all troops from the same regions
If you know it, I'd do whatever you want, I need to know it at all costs. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/190.178.191.57|190.178.191.57]] ([[User talk:190.178.191.57|talk]]) 00:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


- these regions become a DMZ, under control of neither party for the next 25 years, patrolled by the United Nations (or perhaps the USA/Britain and China/North Korea jointly)
:I can't find it on the British Titanic Society website ([http://britishtitanicsociety.com/]), which makes me wonder whether they have decided a date yet. I suggest you contact them directly: [http://britishtitanicsociety.com/contact-us/]. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 01:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


- Russia promises to leave Ukraine alone for 25 years
==Was every other man in Tudor England named Thomas?==
My wife and I have been watching ''[[The Tudors]]'', and it seems like there are more characters named Thomas than not. There's [[Thomas More]], [[Thomas Wolsey]], [[Thomas Cranmer]], [[Thomas Cromwell]], [[Thomas Wyatt (poet)|Thomas Wyatt]], [[Thomas Seymour, 1st Baron Seymour of Sudeley|Thomas Seymour]], and [[The Tudors#Cast|many more]]. I know the popularity of names ebbs and flows, but this seems unusual. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 01:04, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
: What's wrong with the name "Thomas"? [[Thomas the Apostle|Thomas]] is a biblical name, the name of an apostle. I think that would tell you the significance of the name. [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 03:32, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::I don't think BDD is suggesting that there's anything wrong with the name, just that it seems awfully common in Tudor England. Not surprisingly, we have an article called [[Thomas (name)]], which tells us that "''The name becomes more common during the High Middle Ages...''" Not sure how helpful that is. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 03:39, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Wouldn't Tudor times be part of the Renaissance England? Or is Renaissance England really the latter part of the Tudor dynasty (the reign of Queen Elizabeth)? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sneazy|contribs]]) 03:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::Yes, to one or the other of those, but unfortunately the History section of our article stops at 1270. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:30, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
: I'm not quite sure what the OP's question is, but it's worth noting that Thomas was an extremely common name in late medieval and early modern England. (The beginning of the reign of the [[Tudor dynasty]] in 1485 tends to be considered the definitive end of the Middle Ages in England, so the reign of Henry VIII is the early modern period). This research on name frequency from funerary brasses [http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/brasses/menfreq.html] suggests that Thomas was the second most common name after John in the period from the 12th to the 16th Century. 14% (on these figures) of the male population went by the name Thomas. It seems likely (OR on my part!) that there's a connection between the popularity of the name Thomas in England - where it appears to be much more widespread than in other parts of Europe - and the popularity of the cult of [[Thomas Becket]]. [[User:Valiantis|Valiantis]] ([[User talk:Valiantis|talk]]) 05:38, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::As a family historian, I would add that the current trend for variety in first names is a pretty recent thing. Up to the early twentieth century there were a relatively small number of first names in circulation, and Thomas was one of those. This was probably because names were mostly passed down in families - the eldest son would usually get his father's name, the eldest daughter her mother's, then grandparents', uncles' and aunts' names for further children. --[[User:Nicknack009|Nicknack009]] ([[User talk:Nicknack009|talk]]) 08:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thomas was the most popular UK baby's name in 1994, [http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a559006/popular-baby-names-from-the-past] and is currently No 6 in the chart. [http://www.mumsnet.com/baby-names/most-popular-baby-names-england-wales]. I think Valiantis is right and Saint Thomas a Becket [http://my-albion.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/saintly-rivals-brief-comparison-of.html] is the key to the Tudor question, although why it's popular now I'm not so sure. There was only one Thomas in my London secondary school of nearly a thousand boys in the 1970s, and his parents were Czech. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 08:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:On a [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18240901 side note]. <span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><font face="MV Boli" color="blue">[[User:KageTora|KägeTorä - (影虎)]] ([[User talk:KageTora|TALK]])</font></span> 13:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::Most of the Thomases listed by the OP seem to have met their respective ends either by a hot stake or a cold chop. Apparently that was no deterrent against the continued popularity of the name. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 13:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Although [[Thomas Audley, 1st Baron Audley of Walden|Thomas Audley]] did alright for himself. It was tough at the top. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 18:25, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
*Thanks all, those were some good answers to what was a fairly snarky question, Valiantis especially. I had wondered if there was a Becket connection involved. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 05:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


- Ukraine promises not to join NATO or the EU for 25 years
:This discussion causes me to yearn to enter a Tudor pub and call for Thomas, only for all but a few to turn about! [[User:Plasmic Physics|Plasmic Physics]] ([[User talk:Plasmic Physics|talk]]) 11:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


- A peace treaty will be signed
== Liliuokalani ==


- The can will be kicked down the road for 25 years, at which point more discussions or wars will commence
Who is this man standing next to Queen [[Liliuokalani]] in this [http://archives1.dags.hawaii.gov/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3252 picture]?--[[User:KAVEBEAR|KAVEBEAR]] ([[User talk:KAVEBEAR|talk]]) 08:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


So maybe the Americans will say "this is the best deal you're going to get, in the future we're going to be spending our money on our own people and no-one else - if you don't take it, we'll let the Russians roll right over you and good luck to you".
== Prince who died after a prostitute threw acid in his face ==


Is this basically what is being said now? I think this is what Vance envisioned. [[Special:Contributions/146.90.140.99|146.90.140.99]] ([[User talk:146.90.140.99|talk]]) 03:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
According to this and several other Wikipedias, Prince Leopold Clement Philipp August Maria of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Kohary (son of [[Princess Louise of Belgium]] and [[Prince Philipp of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha]]) died after a prostitute threw acid in his face. However, I have not been able to find any reliable source that confirms that. In fact, I have not found been able to find any reliable source that says anything about him. Sure, blogs and forums offer a great amount of detail, but that's not helpful if it cannot be verified. Is anyone able to find out more? [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 13:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:{{small|The downside is that the residents of the buffer zone will be compelled to eat their pets. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 03:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC)}}
:[http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1908.0;wap2 This forum] cites a report in ''The Washington Post'', May 28, 1916, which those with a subscription can find [http://newspaperarchive.com/washington-post/1916-05-28/page-1 here]. [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 13:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you very much! The post contained the alleged prostitute's name, which is all it took to find more. Thanks! [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 16:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::{{small|Or each other's pets. [[User:Tamfang|—Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 21:52, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}}


:You seem to be overlooking one of the major obstacles to peace -- unless it suffers a stinging military defeat, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine which it's formally annexed -- Crimea and [[Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts|Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia]]... -- [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 03:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
== Gender bending in Irish folk songs ==
::You're right, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine, but it is likely that Ukraine does not expect Russia to do so too. Restoring to pre-war territories and the independent of [[Crimea|Crimean]], [[Donetsk Oblast|Donetsk]], [[Kherson Oblast|Kherson]], [[Luhansk Oblast|Luhansk]], and [[Zaporizhzhia Oblast|Zaporizhzhia]] are the best Ukraine can hope for. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 10:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
:Never heard of any such plan. 25 years? This is completely made up. Can't say I'm surprised since this is the same guy who asked the previous "question". My understanding is that Wikipedia and the Reference Desk are not a forum for debate. This is not Facebook. But this guy seems to think otherwise. Anyway, there's no way that the territories Russia has annexed will ever go back to the Ukraine. The only question which remains is what guarantees can be given to Ukraine that Russia will never try something like this ever again and eat it up piecemeal. The best answer (from Ukraine's point of view) would have been that it join NATO but of course Russia won't have it. If not that, then what? This's exactly where the "art of the deal" comes in. Speculating in advance on Wikipedia is pointless. Better to do that on Facebook. [[Special:Contributions/178.51.7.23|178.51.7.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.7.23|talk]]) 03:49, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::You're right, by policy Wikipedia is not a forum and [[WP:SOAP|not a soapbox]]. But attend also to the policy [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks]]. Oh, and the guideline [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] is another good one. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 10:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
:: Further, it's a bit pointless to tell an OP that WP is not a forum or a soapbox, but then immediately engage in debate with them about the matter they raise. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 18:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
:A politician's butt dominates his brain. What he is going to do is more important than what he had said. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
:Expect that a concept of a peace plan will be ready soon after day one. Until then we can only speculate whose concept. Will it be Musk's, Trump's, Vance's, Rubio's, Hegseth's, Kellogg's? The latter's plan is believed to involve Ukraine ceding the Donbas and Luhansk regions, as well as Crimea, to Russia,<sup>[https://www.reuters.com/world/trumps-plan-ukraine-comes-into-focus-territorial-concessions-nato-off-table-2024-12-04/]</sup> after which the negotiators can proclaim: "[[Mission Accomplished speech|Mission accomplished]]. [[Peace for our time]]." &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)


:* There may also be peace plans required for a possible US incursion in Canada and Greenland / Denmark. All three are members of the NATO, so this may be tricky. --[[User:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM]] ([[User talk:Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM|talk]]) 18:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Something I've noticed about love songs in Irish folk music. Songs that are addressed to a female lover, like "[[My Lagan Love]]", "[[She Moved Through the Fair]]" and "[[Down by the Salley Gardens]]" are most often sung by women, and "[[Danny Boy]]", addressed to a male lover, is most often sung by men (there are exceptions in both cases, but that seems to be the trend). What's going on with that? --[[User:Nicknack009|Nicknack009]] ([[User talk:Nicknack009|talk]]) 17:42, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


Isn't this one of those "crystal ball" things we are supposed to avoid here? - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] &#124; [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 21:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
:"Danny Boy" is about a father addressing his son who is leaving for war.[http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ACalend/VetsDannyBoy.html] Not sure about the others; perhaps the female artistes just liked the tunes. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 17:55, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::<small>As a pedantic aside, I'm not sure that "Danny Boy" really qualifies as Irish Folk music. The tune (generally known as [[The Londonderry Air]]) is authentically Irish but was written by a harpist for a late 18th-century Bardic competition, while the words were written by an English lyricist in 1910, making it (in my judgement) more of a popular song version of a semi-classical work. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/212.95.237.92|212.95.237.92]] ([[User talk:212.95.237.92|talk]]) 13:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)</small>
:To be honest - and this is just my opinion - I believe many Irish folk songs (including the ones above) were originally written by men, and not women. Women had children to look after, while the men were out at sea. The modern versions are very often sung by women (such as with [[Clannad]]), purely because they are folk songs. They didn't write them themselves. <span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><font face="MV Boli" color="blue">[[User:KageTora|KägeTorä - (影虎)]] ([[User talk:KageTora|TALK]])</font></span> 18:30, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


:{{agree}} [[User:Slowking Man|Slowking Man]] ([[User talk:Slowking Man|talk]]) 00:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
: A good tune trumps so-called gender every time. <small> But that gives me an idea. I think I'll write a piano sonata and specify that it may only ever be performed by male pianists. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 20:26, 16 June 2013 (UTC) </small>
::If the OP provided an actual source for this claim, then it could be discussed more concretely. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::<small>A bit like [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mfyCI82lWM this]? Not exactly a sonata, but.... </small> <span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml"><font face="MV Boli" color="blue">[[User:KageTora|KägeTorä - (影虎)]] ([[User talk:KageTora|TALK]])</font></span> 23:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:::It is not a claim, but a question, "What is being said now about the prospects and form of a Trump-brokered peace treaty?" Should the OP provide a source for this question? If the question is hard to answer, it is not by lack of sources (I gave one above), but because all kinds of folks are saying all kinds of things about it. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 19:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:Whatever the plan may be, Putin reportedly doesn't like it.<sup>[https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-26-2024]</sup> &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 22:38, 28 December 2024 (UTC)


== ID card replacement ==
:In the old days, when the general public was not so "gay-aware", same-sex performances of songs were not uncommon, i.e. nobody thought it strange, because it was just a song, not a political statement. I'm reminded of a song sung by men from time to time, "I'm Just Wild About Harry", written and occasionally sung by that well-known Irishman, [[Eubie Blake]]. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 07:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


In California you can get a drivers' license (DL) from the DMV, which both serves as an ID card and attests that you are authorized to drive a car. Alternatively, from the same DMV, you can get a state ID card, which is the same as a DL except it doesn't let you drive. The card looks similar and the process for getting it (wait in line, fill in forms, get picture taken) is similar, though of course there is no driving test.
== Another Titanic question, sorry if it bothers ==


If you need a replacement drivers' license, you can request it online or through one of the DMV's self-service kiosks installed in various locations. That's reasonably convenient.
I'm fan of the Titanic and I would like to know this: why if women and children were the first to board the boats, there were male crew members in every boat. Were crew members more important than regular males (passengers)? and my second question only if anybody knows is where did [[Frederick Fleet]], the one who spotted the iceberg, served during [[World War II]]. More than thanks to you all. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/190.178.181.110|190.178.181.110]] ([[User talk:190.178.181.110|talk]]) 17:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Someone in the boat needs to know what to do. That's the job of the crew, most of whom would be male. Even today, when one takes a cruise of whatever duration is whatever waters, there is a lifeboat drill within an hour or so of the first sailing. There, the passengers are divided among lifeboat stations, shown to the crew responsible for that station and taught how to put on their lifejackets, along with receiving instructions on the meanings of various ship's horn messages. The crew's job is to keep track of the people boarding, to get passengers into the lifeboat safely and then to pilot and police the lifeboats in accordance with the nature of the evacuation. [[User:Bielle|Bielle]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 17:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


If you need a replacement ID card, you have to request it in person at a DMV office, involving travel, waiting in line, dealing with crowds, etc. DMV appointment shortens the wait but doesn't get rid of it. Plus the earliest available appointments are several weeks out.
:(Edit Conflict) I'm certain that it was so that there would be somebody on each boat that knew how to handle it. If the sea had been rougher, keeping the boat heading into the waves would have prevented a capsize. The crew member would also understand the importance of getting clear of the sinking ship and know how to get survivors out of the water without tipping everybody else in. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 18:02, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


My mom is elderly, doesn't drive, doesn't handle travel or waiting in line well, and needs a replacement ID card. I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process. Not looking for legal advice etc. but am just wondering if I'm overlooking something sane, rather than reflexive [[system justification]]. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|talk]]) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::[http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-survivor-found-hanged.html TITANIC SURVIVOR FOUND HANGED - Southampton Echo: Monday 11th January 1965] ''"Despite his experience, Mr. Fleet spent another 24 years at sea ''(until 1936?)''... Mr. Fleet left the sea in the depression years of the mid-thirties. He was afterwards with [[Harland & Wolff]], the ship repairers, and was a shore [[master-at-arms]] for the [[Union-Castle Line]]. For a time he was a part-time street seller for the "[[Southern Daily Echo|Echo]]" with a pitch in Pound Tree-road."'' [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 18:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


:European (Brit) here, so responding with logic rather than knowledge, but . . . . If a replacement ID could be requested remotely and sent, it would probably be easier for some nefarious person to do so and obtain a fake ID; at least if attendance is required, the officials can tell that the 25-y-o illegal immigrant (say) they're seeing in front of them doesn't match the photo they already have of the elderly lady whose 'replacement' ID is being requested.
== Evangelism and missionary work, Catholic and Orthodox ==
:Drivers' licences have the additional safeguard that drivers are occasionally (often?) stopped by traffic police and asked to produce them, at which point discrepancies may be evident. {The poster formerly known as 87.812.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 00:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks, I guess there is some sense to that, though I haven't been stopped by police in quite a few years. I reached the DMV by phone and they say they won't issue an actual duplicate ID card: rather, they want to take a new picture of my mom and use that on the new card. Of course that's fine given that we have to go there anyway, but it's another way the DL procedure is different. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|talk]]) 00:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::What purpose does the ID card serve? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 04:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::::See [[Identity documents in the United States]]. These cards can be used for such purposes as boarding a plane, purchasing alcohol or cigarettes where proof of age is required, cashing a check, etc. Most folks use their driver's license for these purposes, but for the minority that does not drive, some form of official id is required from time to time, hence the delivery of such cards by states. --[[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 13:34, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I'm just wondering under what circumstances a shut-in would ever use it. The OP could maybe explain. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 21:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::OP did not describe a "shut-in". And anyway, have you ever heard the well-known phrase-or-saying "none of your fucking business"? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Are you the OP? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 22:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not OP and not a shut-in, but ID is necessary for registration for some online services (including ID requirements for access to some state and federal websites that administer things like taxes and certain benefits). I've had to provide photos/scans of photo ID digitally for a couple other purposes, too, though I can't remember off the top of my head what those were. I think one might have been to verify an I-9 form for employment. And the ID number from my driver's license for others. At least a couple instances have been with private entities rather than governments. The security implications always make me wary. -- [[User:Avocado|Avocado]] ([[User talk:Avocado|talk]]) 23:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Virtually all of the private information of US citizens has been repeatedly compromised in the last decade. Not a single company or government entity has faced consequences, and no US legislation is in the works to protect our private information in the future. For only one small example, the personal info of 73 million AT&T account holders was released on the dark web this year.[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68701958] In the US, if you're a private company, you can do just about anything and get away with it. If you're a private citizen, there's an entirely separate set of laws for you. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 21:25, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:Unless someone affiliated with the CA DMV drops by here, I'm afraid none of us are going to be able to tell you why something is the way it is with them. Essentially it's requesting people to guess or predict at why X ''might'' be the case. Have you tried [https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/contacting-dmv/ contacting them] and asking them for an answer? You and/or her could also [https://findyourrep.legislature.ca.gov/ contact] her CA state elected representatives and let them know your feelings on the matter. Sometimes representatives' offices will assist a constitutent with issues they're having involving government services ("constitutent services"). --[[User:Slowking Man|Slowking Man]] ([[User talk:Slowking Man|talk]]) 01:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:If your mom is old and her medical condition affects her ability to perform daily activities (she couldn't handle the travel or waiting in line well), she can ask her medical doctor to complete a DS 3234 (Medical Certification) form to verify her status. Then you can help her to fill out a DS 3235 application form on the DMV website and submit the required documents accordingly. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)


::{{tq|I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process.}}
Often, when I see evangelism and missionary work, they are typically very Protestant (Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelicals) in style. How would a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian evangelise? [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 18:32, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:The [[Real ID Act]] contributed to the discrepancy in the replacment process, as did several notable fake ID rings on both coasts.[https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-lockyer-announces-arrest-mastermind-national-fake-id-operation][https://www.nj.com/news/2011/12/six_motor_vehicle_commission_c.html] In other words, "this is why we can't have nice things". [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
: Never mind. I answered part of my question [http://www.orthodox.net/articles/evangelism.html here]. Orthodox sounds very similar to Reformed theology; "God" bringing in people to the church. [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 18:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
::{{small|We can't have nice things because those in power regulate the allocation of goods. To distinguish between the deserving and undeserving they need people to have IDs. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)}}
:: I think Roman Catholics send out missionaries to foreign countries. What they do exactly with the missionaries remains a mystery. Maybe they promise indigenous peoples that they could get cheap heathcare or education in exchange for religious conversion. Seeing the need, indigenous peoples convert to Christianity, specifically Roman Catholicism. [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 18:50, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


= December 27 =
: Without in any way being a Catholic apologist, I think you'll find that bribing people to convert is not the Catholic way and never has been. If you think that's what goes on as a general and widespread practice, then this question is not resolved at all. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 20:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:: <small>I didn't add the resolved tag; Medeis did. I checked. [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 21:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)</small>


== Building containing candle cabinets ==
:::You said you answered your own question. Do you still have one? [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 01:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:::: I answered '''part of my question'''. The later statement is a falsifiable opinion/speculation, inspired by reading the [[Approaches to evangelism]] article. [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 01:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


Is there a term (in pretty much any language) for a separate building next to a church, containing candle cabinets where people place votive candles? I've seen this mostly in Romania (and in at least one church in Catalonia), but suspect it is more widespread. (I've also seen just candle cabinets with no separate building, but I'm guessing that there is no term for that.) - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] &#124; [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:To get back to the original question, a typical approach for Catholic missionaries is to open a school and/or a medical facility in a community they seek to evangelize. This will attract persons who want to use the services offered, some of whom eventually become converts. A more modern approach involves providing different types of social services (such as social clubs, labor unions etc). The approach was less subtle in past times, however. What catholic missionaries typically do not do is go door-to-door trying to engage non-believers directly. --[[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 09:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


:[[Shrine]] ''might'' cover it, but I suspect there's a more specific term in at least one language. {The poster fornerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 21:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::Do television evangelising campaigns count as direct engagement? Because, it's been used [[New Zealand|here]]. [[User:Plasmic Physics|Plasmic Physics]] ([[User talk:Plasmic Physics|talk]]) 11:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::Somebody contributed a couple of photos of these kind of cabinets to commons. [[:File:Orthodoxe_Nonne_putzt_Kerzen%C3%B6fchen.JPG]] and [[:File:Beh%C3%A4lter_f%C3%BCr_Opferkerzen_an_einer_orthodoxen_Kirche_in_Rum%C3%A4nien.JPG]]. Both are in Romania, and outdoor. I suppose the purpose of the cabinet is to protect the candles from the weather? I see pictures of indoor ''racks'' for candles. One example is [[:File:Religión en Isla Margarita, Valle del Espíritu Santo.jpg]] which is an upcoming Commons picture of the day. This small dark metal shed full of dripping wax is apparently located in or near to the rather pretty and well-lit [[Basilica of Our Lady of El Valle]], but I saw nothing to tell me the spatial relationship. Some discussion, again about Romanian Eastern Orthodox traditions, [https://www.flickr.com/photos/time-to-look/27689850307 in this Flickr photo's text], which calls them ... candle cabinets. (They protect the candles from wind and rain, and protect the church from the candles.) [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 11:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::: {{ping|Card Zero}} the things you are posting are, precisely, candle cabinets. What I'm talking about are structures like a proper building, but with just a portal, no doors as such. Here's a rare non-Romanian example I photographed in 2001: [[:File:Montserrat - prayer candles.jpg]]. Remarkably, I don't see any Romanian examples that really show the structure, they are all too close-in detailed. I'll try to see if I can find an example I may have shot but not yet uploaded. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] &#124; [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 04:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


= December 28 =
:See [[:Category:Christian missionaries by denomination]].
:—[[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 17:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


== days of the week ==
== Truncated Indian map in Wikipedia ==


Why is the map of India always appears truncated in all of Wikipedia pages, when there is no official annexing of Indian territories in Kashmir, by Pakistan and China nor its confirmation from Indian govt ? With Pakistan and China just claiming the territory, why the world map shows it as annexed by them, separating from India ? [[User:TravelLover05|TravelLover05]] ([[User talk:TravelLover05|talk]]) 15:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
1. how far back has humanity preserved the current days of the week - in the sense that since it's not astronomical in any way, it is quite conceivable that as you count back days of the week and solar days, at some point humanity was off by one


:The map at [[India]] shows Kashmir in light green, meaning "claimed but not controlled". It's not truncated, it's ''differently included.'' [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
2. what keeps the worldwide days of the week in complete synchronicity? has there ever been a glitch or inconsistency where isolated communities had a different day of the week? It's easy to imagine on a shipwreck (e.g. here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thursday_October_Christian_I) but on the level of cities, coutnries, continents - everyone has always been perfectly in synch?
:Please see no 6 in [[Talk:India/FAQ]] [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)


= December 29 =
Is the only power to have kept this the regular rhythm of a religious week (with a day off) and days-of-the-week being tracked? So that the reason that it is never 'off' is that the whole community would have had to be asleep for an indeterminate number of hours between 24-72 and just have no idea what actual day it is?


== Set animal's name = sha? ==
I find this level of perfect time-keeping in every single community, however isolated, to be quite remarkable. How far back does it go? [[Special:Contributions/178.48.114.143|178.48.114.143]] ([[User talk:178.48.114.143|talk]]) 21:07, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


"In ancient Egyptian art, the Set animal, or sha,[citation needed]" - this seems like a major citation needed. Any help?
: Well, before the [[Gregorian calendar]], there was the [[Julian calendar]]. [[User:Sneazy|Sneazy]] ([[User talk:Sneazy|talk]]) 21:25, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
[[User:Temerarius|Temerarius]] ([[User talk:Temerarius|talk]]) 00:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:Which article does that appear in? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 01:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::It must be [[Set animal#:~:text=The sha is usually depicted,erect, are usually depicted as|this]] article. [[User:Omidinist|Omidinist]] ([[User talk:Omidinist|talk]]) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:::That term was in the original version of the article, written 15 years ago by an editor named "P Aculeius" who is still active. Maybe the OP could ask that user about it? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 05:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:*{{tq|Each time, the word ''šꜣ'' is written over the Seth-animal.}}<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=0po3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=%22Each+time+,+the+word+š3+is+written+over+the+Seth-animal.%22&hl=en]</sup>
:*{{tq|Sometimes the animal is designated as sha (''šꜣ'') , but we are not certain at all whether this designation was its name.}}<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=yNn7EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&dq=%22Sometimes+the+animal+is+designated+as+sha+(š)+,+but+we+are+not+certain+at+all+whether+this+designation+was+its+name.%22&hl=en]</sup>
:*{{tq|When referring to the ancient Egyptian terminology, the so-called sha-animal, as depicted and mentioned in the Middle Kingdom tombs of Beni Hasan, together with other fantastic creatures of the desert and including the griffin, closely resembles the Seth animal.}}<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=PRjOEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA483&dq=%22When+referring+to+the+ancient+Egyptian+ter-minology,+the+so-called+sha-animal,+as+depicted+and+mentioned+in+the+Middle+Kingdom+tombs+of+Beni+Hasan,+together+with+other+fantastic+creatures+of+the+des-ert+and+including+the+griffin,+closely+resembles+the+Seth+animal.%22&hl=en]</sup>
:*{{tq|''šꜣ'' ‘Seth-animal’}}<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=EwE2DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22š+'Seth-animal'%22&hl=en]</sup>
:*{{tq|He claims that the domestic pig is called “sha,” the name of the Set-animal.}}<sup>[https://books.google.com/books?id=kc0UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=%22He+claims+that+the+domestic+pig+is+called+sha,+the+name+of+the+Set-animal.%22%22&hl=en]</sup>
:Wiktionary gives ''[[wikt:šꜣ#Noun 2|šꜣ]]'' as meaning "<u>wild</u> pig", not mentioning use in connection with depictions of the Seth-animal. The hieroglyphs shown for ''šꜣ'' do not resemble those in the article [[Set animal]], which instead are listed as ideograms in (or for) ''[[wikt:stẖ#Egyptian|stẖ]]'', the proper noun ''Seth''. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 08:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you! The reason I brought it up was because the hieroglyph for the set animal didn't have the sound value to match in jsesh.
::[[User:Temerarius|Temerarius]] ([[User talk:Temerarius|talk]]) 22:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
{{Hiero|The word ''sha'' (accompanying<br>depictions of the Set animal)|<hiero>SA-A-E12.E12</hiero>|align=right|era=egypt}}
:::IMO they should be removed, or, if this can be sourced, be replaced by one or more of the following two: &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 09:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
{{clear}}
{{multiple image
| width = 125
| image1 = Sha (animal).jpg
| alt1 =
| image2 = Set animal.svg
| alt2 =
| footer = Budge's original drawing and second version of PharaohCrab's drawing; the original looked very different, and this one is clearly based on Budge's as traced by me in 2009, but without attribution.
}}
:The article—originally "Sha (animal)" was one of the first I wrote, or attempted to write, and was based on and built on the identification by [[E. A. Wallis Budge]], in [https://books.google.com/books?id=b9ZDAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Budge,+Gods+of+the+Egyptians&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjxwteh7dmKAxUf48kDHeLjINYQ6AF6BAgGEAI#v=onepage&q=Sha&f=false ''The Gods of the Egyptians''], which uses the hieroglyph <hiero>M8</hiero> for the word "sha", and includes the illustration that I traced from a scan and uploaded to Commons (and which was included in the article from the time of its creation in 2009 until December 21, 2024 when [[User:PharaohCrab]] replaced it with his original version of the one shown above; see its history for what it looked like until yesterday). I have had very little to do with the article since [[User:Sonjaaa]] made substantial changes and moved it to "Seth animal" in 2010; although it's stayed on my watchlist, I long since stopped trying to interfere with it, as it seemed to me that other editors were determined to change it to the way they thought it should be, and I wasn't sophisticated enough to intervene or advocate effectively for my opinions. In fact the only edit by me I can see after that was fixing a typo.


:As for the word ''sha'', that is what Budge called it, based on the hieroglyph associated with it; I was writing about this specific creature, which according to Budge and some of the other sources quoted above has some degree of independence from Set, as it sometimes appears without him and is used as the determinative of one or two other deities, whose totemic animal it might also have been. One of the other scholars quoted above questions whether the word ''sha'' is the name of the animal, but still associates the word with the animal: Herman Te Velde's article, "Egyptian Hieroglyphs as Signs Symbols and Gods", quoted above, uses slightly modified versions of Budge's illustrations; his book ''Seth, God of Confusion'' is also quoted above, both with the transliteration ''šꜣ'', which in "Egyptian Hieroglyphs" he also renders ''sha''. [[Percy Newberry]] is the source cited by the [[Henry Francis Herbert Thompson|Henry Thompson]] quotation above, claiming that ''sha'' referred to a domestic pig as well as the Set animal, and a different god distinct from Set, though sharing the same attributes (claims of which Thompson seems skeptical). Herman Te Velde also cites Newberry, though he offers a different explanation for the meaning of "sha" as "destiny". ''All Things Ancient Egypt'', also quoted above, calls the animal "the so-called ''sha''-animal", while ''Classification from Antiquity to Modern Times'' just uses ''šꜣ'' and "Seth-animal".
:: That change did not of itself interrupt the sequence of days of the week, just the numbering of the dates. In the 4 countries that adopted the Gregorian calendar immediately, '''Thursday''' 4 October 1582 (Julian) was followed immediately by '''Friday''' 15 October 1582 (Gregorian). And when the remaining countries switched over at various times, they also kept the sequence. Managing the relationship between the two calendars has been challenging enough for historians. But it would have created utter chaos if the day called ''Wednesday'' 19 June 2013 in Britain was called ''Thursday'' 19 June 2013 in Germany and ''Friday'' 19 June 2013 in Russia and ''Saturday'' 19 June 2013 in the USA.
:: However, there were some local adjustments that needed to be made, which involved repeating days of the week in some places. For example, "In Alaska, the change took place when '''Friday''', 6 October 1867 was followed again by '''Friday''', 18 October 1867 after the US purchase of Alaska from Russia, which was still on the Julian calendar. Instead of 12 days, only 11 were skipped, and the day of the week was repeated on successive days, because the International Date Line (although not known by that name in 1867) was shifted from Alaska's eastern to western boundary along with the change to the Gregorian calendar". And I'm sure something similar happened in the Phillipines as well. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 21:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


:I'm not certain what the question here is; that the hieroglyph transliterated ''sha'' is somehow associated with the creature seems to have a clear scholarly consensus; most of the scholars use it as the name of the creature; Herman Te Velde is the only one who suggests that it ''might'' not be its name, though he doesn't conclude whether it is or isn't; and one general source says in passing "so-called ''sha''-animal", which accepts that this is what it's typically referred to in scholarship, without endorsing it. Although Newberry made the connection with pigs, none of the sources seems to write the name with pig hieroglyphs as depicted above. Could you be clearer about what it is that's being discussed here? [[User:P Aculeius|P Aculeius]] ([[User talk:P Aculeius|talk]]) 16:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
::(ec) However, neither the Gregorian or the Julian calendars were concerned with the days of the week, just the lengths of months and years. According to the article [[Seven-day_week#Christian_Europe|Seven-day_week]], we can verify from ancient calendars that the weekly cycle has remained unbroken since at least 311 AD. - [[User:Lindert|Lindert]] ([[User talk:Lindert|talk]]) 21:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Re 1: The system of a seven day week was in place by the time that the [[Book of Genesis]] was written. Some simple thinking about it would also suggest that the text is telling us that the system was believed to be an ancient one at that point in time, but just how long ago it was written is the subject of massive and heated argument; take your pick from anything from c.2500 to c.3500 years ago and anything in between, then add whatever figure you like for the perception of 'ancientness'. See the not very well-written article, [[Dating_the_Bible]]. There's also the article [[Mosaic authorship]], which carefully avoids presenting any traditional dating in its extensive section on traditional dating. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) 22:03, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


:[[File:Budgesh.png|thumb|things that start with sh]]
But considering how little communication there was in ancient times, isn't it quite strange not only that it was "unbroken" since 311 AD but unbroken everywhere in every community, no matter how isolated or small or large? There were no cases of a few hundred people losing track of the days as they migrated and established a new community, at any time between 311 AD and modern times, where these people established a meaningful large community and became truly out of synch? This seems so bizarre for me. After all, there are several different calendars in use during that time, including, Hebrew, Chinese, Gregorian, Julian, etc. What makes the day of the week something that everyone agrees on? Why wasn't there ever a conflict, so that one group of people thought it was Sunday every time another group of people thought it was still Wednesday? This would seem to me quite likely and plausible as people were isolated worldwide... [[Special:Contributions/178.48.114.143|178.48.114.143]] ([[User talk:178.48.114.143|talk]]) 00:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:I asked because I couldn't find it in Gardiner (jsesh, no match when searching by sound value) or Budge (dictionary vol II.)
:[[User:Temerarius|Temerarius]] ([[User talk:Temerarius|talk]]) 05:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)


= December 30 =
: That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis, and there are probably cases where such confusion has occurred. On the other hand, remember that our culture where most of our remembering is done for us, is very recent; historically, people relied far more on oral traditions and consequently had a stronger internal sense of the sequence of things. We have the "luxury" of sometimes feeling that one day is much like the next and the next and next, and they all blur together in our memories and become as one. But in the past, people took note of the rising and setting of the sun, the weather, celestial omens and the like, and they were generally far more ritualised than we are today. Individuals might sometimes forget details like which day it is; communities do not. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


== I do not say the Frenchman will not come. I only say he will not come by sea. ==
::The Germanic weekday names are [[calque]]s on the Latin. The older system among the Romans was a numeric one using the [[ides]] as a day before or after which something occurred. The Semites kept a [[lunar calendar]] with weeks and fortnights as quarter and half-cycles. I remember reading there were festivals held quarter-monthly, but a afraid my source for that is memory based on perhaps [[Anne Rice]]. Babylon, Rome and Constantinople have been constantly civilized long enough that there is no conflict between the Eastern, Western, and Jewish calendars. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 01:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
The Jewish calendar, on which the seven day system is based, did suffer disruption during periods of persecution. The famous example is that the count of the [[yovel]] was lost. Nonetheless, the count of [[shmita]] was not. If you can remember where you are in a seven year cycle when people are trying to decorate their swords with the guts of your infants, you can probably remember where you are in a seven day cycle, particularly if your [[Shabbat|ritual observances]] demand that you do. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) 08:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


1. What is the ultimate source of this famous 1803 quote by John Jervis (1735 – 1823), 1st Earl of St Vincent, First Lord of the Admiralty at the time. I googled Books and no source is ever given except possibly another collection of quotations. The closest I got was: "At a parley in London while First Lord of the Admiralty 1803". That's just not good enough. Surely there must be someone who put this anecdote in writing for the first time.
:This isn't quite what you're asking about, but before the 19th century ships traveling around the world, or even around part of the world, frequently fell a day out of sync with local reckoning. If I understand right ships tended to keep their records and logs day-by-day even if they fell into conflict with local reckoning. And returning home after a circumnavigation would find their logs off by a day. Without a standardized International Date Line there was no way to say exactly where and when they fell out of sync. An example of this is the records of the [[Vancouver Expedition]] of 1791-95, which circumnavigated the world from England in an easterly direction. By the time they got to the [[Pacific Northwest]], after crossing the Pacific, their reckoning was a day off from the "local" Spanish ships and bases, as well as the merchant vessels that had sailed the other direction. Despite Vancouver's careful exploring in cooperation with the Spanish in the region, and lengthy diplomacy and negotiation with Spanish authorities, the expedition kept its records day-by-day, despite being a day off from their Spanish counterparts. Even today when you read the expedition's logs, journal entries, etc, you have to subtract a day from what they say. From what I understand, this kind of "one day off" thing was common in those days, whenever circumnavigations were done. [[User:Pfly|Pfly]] ([[User talk:Pfly|talk]]) 09:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


2. Wouldn't you say this use of the simple present in English is not longer current in contemporary English, and that the modern equivalent would use present continuous forms "I'm not saying... I'm only saying..." (unless Lord Jervis meant to say he was in the habit of saying this; incidentally I do realize this should go to the Language Desk but I hope it's ok just this once)
:<small>Actually, there is no "standardized International Date Line" (there is an agreed nautical one, but that's different). Our article [[International date line]] says "No international organization, nor any treaty between nations, has fixed the IDL drawn by cartographers". The date line marked on maps is in principle determined experimentally by asking nations near the 180th meridian which side of choose they are on. One consequence of this is that it gets changed from time to time by unilateral decision of a country: most recently [[Kiribati]] in 1995. Another is that a cartographer could draw it as wiggly as they liked, as long as it passed the right side of each nation, and nobody could say they were wrong. --[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 16:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)</small>
::<small>Ah, yes, I see. And actually the most recent might be Samoa, which our page says "changed back" to west of the IDL in 2011, in the process causing havoc among [[Seventh-day Adventist Church|Seventh-day Adventists]] in Samoa--which might result in a schism. [[User:Pfly|Pfly]] ([[User talk:Pfly|talk]]) 11:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC) </small>
:Just adding a reference to a very good site to consult with calendar questions: http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/week.php#interrupt - <span style="font-family: cursive">[[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]]</span> 06:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


[[Special:Contributions/178.51.7.23|178.51.7.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.7.23|talk]]) 11:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
== [[:File:Our Lady of Peace Cathedral, Honolulu, 1843.jpg]] ==
:Assuming he's talking about England, does he propose building a bridge over the Channel? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 12:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::How about a [[Channel_Tunnel#Earlier_proposals|tunnel]]? --[[User:Wrongfilter|Wrongfilter]] ([[User talk:Wrongfilter|talk]]) 12:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It's a joke. He's saying that the French won't invade under any circumstances (see [[English understatement]]). [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 20:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The First Lord of the Admiralty wouldn't be the one stopping them if the French came by tunnel (proposed in 1802) or air (the French did have hot air balloons). Any decent military officer would understand that an invasion by tunnel or balloon would have no chance of success, but this fear caused some English opposition against the Channel Tunnel for the next 150 years. Just hinting at the possibility of invasion by tunnel amongst military officers would be considered a joke.
:::Unless he was insulting the British Army (no, now I'm joking). [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


:The quoted wording varies somewhat. Our article [[John Jervis, 1st Earl of St Vincent]] has it as "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea" in an 1801 letter to the Board of Admiralty, cited to {{cite book | last = Andidora | first = Ronald | title = Iron Admirals: Naval Leadership in the Twentieth Century | publisher = Greenwood Publishing Group | year = 2000 | isbn = 978-0-313-31266-3 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=0P-A8rIfO34C&pg=PA3 | page = 3}}. Our article [[British anti-invasion preparations of 1803–05]] has Jervis telling the House of Lords "I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea", and then immediately, and without citation, saying it was more probably [[George Elphinstone, 1st Viscount Keith|Keith]]. I can't say I've ever seen it attributed to Keith anywhere else. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 13:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Can anybody with better eyes and ability to read 19th century cursive help me make out the text in this image above the three buildings next to the "Catholic Church" and the title in the center?--[[User:KAVEBEAR|KAVEBEAR]] ([[User talk:KAVEBEAR|talk]]) 23:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:Hmm, Andidora does '''not''' in fact say it was in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, nor does he explicitly say 1801. And his source, ''The Age of Nelson'' by G J Marcus has it as Jervis telling the House of Lords sometime during the scare of '03-'05. Marcus doesn't give a source. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 13:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:Title: View of Capt. Charles Brewers house. Oahu. First house: Mr. Potys ? Second house: Mr. Ladds ? Third house: Doct Travis ? [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] ([[User talk:Rmhermen|talk]]) 00:08, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::[[Robert Southey]] was [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LcGoSGtr84IC&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false attributing it to Lord St Vincent] as early as 1806, and while I don't want to put too much weight on his phrase "used to say" it does at any rate raise the possibility that St Vincent said (or wrote) it more than once. Perhaps Marcus and our St Vincent article are both right. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks.--[[User:KAVEBEAR|KAVEBEAR]] ([[User talk:KAVEBEAR|talk]]) 07:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Interesting. Thanks. Some modern accounts (not Southey apparently) claim Lord St Vincent was speaking in the House of Lords. If that was the case, wouldn't it be found in the parliamentary record? How far back does the parliamentary record go for the House of Commons and/or the House of Lords. [[Special:Contributions/178.51.7.23|178.51.7.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.7.23|talk]]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:As for (2), the tense is still alive and kicking, if I do say so myself. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 23:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::You don't say? [An idiom actually meaning "You say ''that'', do you?", although I dare say most of you know that.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is not what I am asking. [[Special:Contributions/178.51.7.23|178.51.7.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.7.23|talk]]) 05:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Then I will answer you more directly. You are wrong: while the usage you quote is ''less common'' than it once was, it ''is'' still current, according to my experience as a native BrE speaker for over 65 years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 13:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I kid you not. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 23:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


== What percentage of Ancient Greek literature was preserved? ==
= June 17 =


Has anyone seen an estimate of what percentage of Ancient Greek literature (broadly understood: literature proper, poetry, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, etc.) was preserved. It doesn't matter how you define "Ancient Greek literature", or if you mean the works available in 100 BC or 1 AD or 100 AD or 200 AD... Works were lost even in antiquity. I'm just trying to get a rough idea and was wondering if anyone ever tried to work out an estimate. [[Special:Contributions/178.51.7.23|178.51.7.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.7.23|talk]]) 17:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
== Is it possible to travel to Oceania via ship (not cruisers) just to arrive and stay in that country? ==


:I don't have an answer handy for you at the moment, but I can tell you that people ''have'' tried to work out an estimate for this, at least from the perspective of "how many manuscripts containing such literature managed to survive past the early Middle Ages". We've worked this one out, with many caveats, by comparing library catalogues from very early monasteries to known survivals and estimating the loss rate. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
I need to travel to Kiribati, a country in Oceania and I'd like to know if I can travel via ship.
:One estimate is (less than) [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/16/the-invisible-library] one percent. --[[User:Askedonty|Askedonty]] ([[User talk:Askedonty|talk]]) 20:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
I am panicked by airplanes and I'm treating it with my therapist but haven't yet overcome it, so she asked me to find out other ways to get to Kiribati.
Any help appreciated. [[User:LoweIan|LoweIan]] ([[User talk:LoweIan|talk]]) 14:55, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


:The [http://www.flightlesstravel.com/plan/cargo-ships/ Cargo Ship Travel] page on "flightless travel" might be useful. -- [[User:Q Chris|Q Chris]] ([[User talk:Q Chris|talk]]) 15:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:We have a [[Lost literary work]] article with a large "Antiquity" section. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 21:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::These are works known to have existed, because they were mentioned and sometimes even quoted in works that have survived. These known lost works are probably only a small fraction of all that have been lost. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:Few things which might be helpful:
:#{{xt|So profuse was Galen's output that the surviving texts represent nearly half of all the extant literature from ancient Greece.}}<ref>[[Galen|Galen's article]]</ref>
:#Although not just Greek, but only 1% of ancient literature survives.<ref>https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009/10/26/reference-for-the-claim-that-only-1-of-ancient-literature-survives/</ref> --{{User:ExclusiveEditor/Signature}} 11:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


:The following quantities are known: <math>S,</math> the number of preserved works, <math>L,</math> the (unknown) number of lost works, and <math>M_L,</math> the number of lost works of which we know, through mentions in preserved works. In a (very) naive model, let <math>\mu</math> stand for the probability that a given work (lost or preserved) is mentioned in some other preserved work (so <math>M_L=\mu L</math>). The expected number of mentions of preserved works in other preserved works is then <math>M_S=\mu(S-1).</math> If we have the numerical value of the latter quantity (which is theoretically obtainable by scanning all preserved works), we can obtain an estimate for <math>\mu</math> and compute <math>L\approx\frac{M_L}{M_S}(S-1).</math>
:Possible? it seems so. You can apparently book a passage on a supply ship from Fiji or Tuvalu [http://www.lonelyplanet.com/kiribati/transport/getting-there-away] - either of which should be easier to get to by sea, though obviously it depends where you are coming from. Don't expect it to be cheap. Or quick. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 15:17, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:&nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:Not that it's something that would help you, but I've been looking into sea travel as I hate flying, too. [[RMS Queen Mary 2]] appears to be the only [[Ocean liner]] left in the world. I'm curious why that happened. There are millions of people with [[Fear of flying]]. The must be a huge market for ships that would just bring people like me to the place they want to be as fast as possible, without having to fly, without having to find a cargo ship that happens to sail in the right direction. [[User:Joepnl|Joepnl]] ([[User talk:Joepnl|talk]]) 23:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::Because the percentage of people who are not minded to fly multiplied by the percentage of people who consider taking ships a thing they want to do worked out for bad economics for the shipping companies. Today's cruise ships, and I've been on a few, are not intended as transportation. Yes, they go places, but few people take them to get from Point A to Point B, there are faster and cheaper means. Once transatlantic airplane travel became something relatively cheap and routine, the liners started to die.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 23:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


* Even without seeing any professional estimate of the kind I'm asking about here, my ballpark figure was that it had to be less than 1 percent, simply from noting how little of even the most celebrated and important authors has been preserved (e.g. about 5 percent for Sophocles) and how there are hundreds of authors and hundreds of works for which we only have the titles and maybe a few quotes, not to mention all those works of which we have not an inkling, the number of which it is, for this very reason, extremely hard to estimate.
:::I would agree with the statement that cruise ships are not intended for transportation, but there are some exceptions. The trans Atlantic crossings, for example, are sometimes taken by people who can afford the time and the money not to have to fly. First class on an airline would be faster and probably cheaper, but there are those who really do have problems flying. I know people who do this annually. [[User:Bielle|Bielle]] ([[User talk:Bielle|talk]]) 02:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Tranquilizers are cheaper? [[User:Dodger67|Roger (Dodger67)]] ([[User talk:Dodger67|talk]]) 07:51, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Well, the Cunard Southampton/New York, certainly. Most cruise ships, even on transatlantic runs, make at least a couple of stops. Azores, Madiera, Bermuda are common. I took a transatlantic from Rome to Fort Lauderdale last year, it puttered around the Med for a week before getting going.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 13:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
:<small> See this [[Thor Heyerdahl|travel agent]]. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 11:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC) </small>


* But as a corollary to my first question I have another three:
== Sir 'Chips'? ==


* 1. Has any modern historian tackled this paradox, namely the enormous influence that the culture of the Ancient World has had on the West while at the same time how little we actually know about that culture, and as a consequence the problem that we seem to believe that we know much more than we actually do? in other words that our image of it that has had this influence on Western culture might be to some extent a modern creation and might be very different of what it actually was?
[[Henry Channon]] was knighted in 1957 but married Lady Honor Guinness in 1933. Between 1933 and 1957 would it have been incorrect to have called him Sir Henry Channon? Thanks, [[User:Ericoides|Ericoides]] ([[User talk:Ericoides|talk]]) 16:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:Yes, it would be incorrect. From [[Courtesy titles in the United Kingdom#Courtesy_prefix_of_.22Lady.22|Courtesy titles in the United Kingdom]]: ''"The honorific prefix of "(The) Lady" is used for the daughters of Dukes, Marquesses and Earls. The courtesy title is added before the person's name, as in the example The Lady Diana Spencer. The title persists after the death of the holder's father but it is not inherited by her children. '''The husband of the holder is not entitled to a courtesy title.''' The holder is addressed as "Lady Diana"."''
::Note that Lady Honor and Henry were divorced in 1945. [http://www.thepeerage.com/p4621.htm] [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 17:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Great, just what I was looking for. Thanks, [[User:Ericoides|Ericoides]] ([[User talk:Ericoides|talk]]) 18:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::It's also worth noting that the use of knighthoods as courtesy titles seems to have died out in the late middle ages, so ''no-one'' is entitled to be 'Sir' anything by virtue of who they're related to. [[User:AlexTiefling|AlexTiefling]] ([[User talk:AlexTiefling|talk]]) 18:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::: I was with you until the comma. [[Baronet]]s are titled "Sir", and they gain their titles by inheritance. True, they are not knights, but the second half of your answer was too broad. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 22:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::::I meant that a baronet is a substantive title-holder; a [[George Osborne|baronet's heir]] has no special title, and nor does the husband of a [[baronetess]]. [[User:AlexTiefling|AlexTiefling]] ([[User talk:AlexTiefling|talk]]) 22:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
::::: Check. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 23:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


* 2. I understand that in this regard there can be the opposite opinion (or we can call it a hypothesis, or an article of faith) which is the one that is commonly held (at least implicitly): that despite all that was lost the main features of our knowledge of the culture of the Ancient World are secure and that no lost work is likely to have modified the fundamentals? Like I said this seems to be the position that is commonly implicitly held, but I'm interested to hear if any historian has discussed this question and defended this position explicitly in a principled way?
== Sophia Cracroft and Lady Franklin ==


* 3. Finally to what extent is the position mentioned in point 2 simply a result of ignorance (people not being aware of how much was lost)? How widespread is (in the West) the knowledge of how much was lost? How has that awareness developed in the West, both at the level of the experts and that of the culture in general, since say the 15th century? Have you encountered any discussions of these points?
When did Sophia Cracroft and [[Jane Franklin|Lady Franklin]] arrive in Hawaii in 1861 and how long did they stay?--[[User:KAVEBEAR|KAVEBEAR]] ([[User talk:KAVEBEAR|talk]]) 22:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


[[Special:Contributions/178.51.7.23|178.51.7.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.7.23|talk]]) 08:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
= June 18 =


:The issues touched upon are major topics in [[historiography]] as well as the [[philosophy of history]], not only for the Ancient (Classical) World but for all historical study. Traditionally, [[historian]]s have concentrated on the culture of the high and mighty. The imprint on the historical record by ''[[hoi polloi]]'' is much more difficult to detect, except in the rare instances where they rose up, so what we think of as "the" culture of any society is that of a happy few. Note also that "the culture of the Ancient World" covers a period of more than ten centuries, in which kingdoms and empires rose and fell, states and colonies were founded and conquered, in an endless successions of wars and intrigues. On almost any philosophical issue imaginable, including [[natural philosophy]], ancient philosophers have held contrary views. It is not clear how to define "the" culture of the Ancient World, and neither is it clear how to define the degree to which this culture has influenced modern Western society. It may be argued that the influence of say Plato or Sophocles has largely remained confined to an upper crust. I think historians studying this are well aware of the limitations of their source material, including the fact that history is written by the victors. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
== Intrinsic value ==


:178.51.7.23 -- Think of it this way: What did it mean to "publish" something in the ancient world? You had at least one written manuscript of your work -- rarely more than a handful of such manuscripts. You could show what you had written to your friends, have it delivered to influential people, bequeath it to your heirs, or donate it to an archive or research collection (almost none of which were meaningfully public libraries in the modern sense of that phrase). However you chose to do it, once you were gone, the perpetuation of your work depended on other people having enough interest in it to do the laborious work of copying the manuscript, or being willing to pay to have a copy made. Works of literature which did not interest other people enough to copy manuscripts of it were almost always eventually lost, which ensured that a lot of tedious and worthless stuff was filtered out. Of course, pagan literary connoisseurs, Christian monks, Syriac and Arabic translators seeking Greek knowledge, and Renaissance Humanists all had different ideas of what was worth preserving, but between them, they ensured that a lot of interesting or engaging or informative works ended up surviving from ancient times. I'm sure that a number of worthy books still slipped through the gaps, but some losses were very natural and to be expected; for example, some linguists really wish that Claudius's book on the Etruscan language had survived, but it's not surprising that it didn't, since it would not have generally interested ancient, medieval, or renaissance literate people in the same way it would interest modern scholars struggling with Etruscan inscriptions.
Is there a clear definition of what "intrinsic" means in the terms "intrinsically good" and "intrinsically bad"? The only statement I can think of that I agree with is Kant's "good will", which I take to be adherence to moral law. --[[User:Melab-1|Melab±1]] [[User_talk:Melab-1|&#9742;]] 00:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
:By the way, college bookstores on or near campuses of universities which had a Classics program sometimes used to have a small section devoted to the small green-backed (Greek) and red-backed (Latin) volumes of the [[Loeb Classical Library]], and you could get an idea of what survived from ancient times (and isn't very obscure or fragmentary) by perusing the shelves... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 01:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
::Indeed - at the other end of the scale, the ''[[Description of Greece]]'' by Pausanias seems to have survived into the Middle Ages in a single MS (now of course lost), and there are no ancient references to either it or him known. Since the Renaissance it has been continuously in print. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 03:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}


= December 31 =
:It means "inwardly", i.e. "by nature".[http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=intrinsic&searchmode=none] Your typical tree, for example, is intrinsically wood. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 02:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


== Was the fictional character "The Jackal" (as played by Edward Fox and Bruce Willis) based on Carlos The Jackal? ==
:Just think of it as the opposite of "extrinsically", meaning through some external force. Beyond that it's a matter of what you're talking about: for example, in one context you could say that money has intrinsic value, whereas stock has value only because you can sell it for money. But on the other hand, in a different context you can say a bag of flour has intrinsic value, because you can bake with it, whereas dollar bills have no intrinsic value (i.e. as wood kindling, writing paper, packing material, insulation, etc). So you have to figure out what the person means. [[Special:Contributions/178.48.114.143|178.48.114.143]] ([[User talk:178.48.114.143|talk]]) 02:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


Talking about the fictional assassin from the books and films. I once read somewhere that the real Carlos The Jackal didn't like being compared to the fictional character, because he said he was a professional Marxist revolutionary, not merely a hitman for hire to the highest bidder (not in the article about him at the moment, so maybe not true). [[Special:Contributions/146.90.140.99|146.90.140.99]] ([[User talk:146.90.140.99|talk]]) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:For there to be such things as "intrinsically good or bad", one must believe, at least in part, in [[moral absolutism]]. That is, "whatever is right is always right and whatever is wrong is always wrong". By contrast, those who believe purely in [[moral relativism]] would argue that different things are right or wrong in different contexts. Most people would agree, however, in a moral model in-between those two. For example, randomly killing people is "intrinsically wrong" and dealing honestly with customers is "intrinsically good", while the type of clothing people wear isn't intrinsically good or bad, but depends on the society, context, etc. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat|talk]]) 02:52, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


:No, the character wasn't based on Carlos. The films are based on the 1971 historical fiction novel ''[[The Day of the Jackal]]'' by Frederick Forsyth, which begins with a fairly accurate account of the actual 1962 assassination attempt on Charles de Gaulle by the French Air Force lieutenant colonel [[Jean Bastien-Thiry]], which failed. Subsequently in the fictional plot the terrorists hire an unnamed English professional hitman whom they give the codename 'The Jackal'.
== Vitruvian pose ==
:[[Carlos the Jackal]] was a Venezuelan terrorist named Ilich Ramírez Sánchez operating in the 1970s and '80s. He was given the cover name 'Carlos' when in 1971 he joined the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. When authorities found some of his weapons stashed in a friend's house, a copy of Forsyth's novel was noticed on his friend's bookshelf, and a ''Guardian'' journalist then invented the nickname, as journalists are wont to do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 03:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::There's also the fictionalised Ilich Ramírez Sánchez / Carlos the Jackal from the [[Jason Bourne]] novels. [[User:PiusImpavidus|PiusImpavidus]] ([[User talk:PiusImpavidus|talk]]) 10:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


== References ==
My coach gives us homework every night and tonight she told us to define the word VITRUVIAN POSE. I looked everywhere to find it and I can't! Someone please define it <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.117.231.82|97.117.231.82]] ([[User talk:97.117.231.82|talk]]) 03:06, 18 June 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


I am on to creating an article on {{ill|Lu Chun|zh|陸淳}} soon. If anyone has got references about him other than those on google, it would be great if you could share them here. Thanks, {{User:ExclusiveEditor/Signature}} 11:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:See [[Vitruvian Man]]. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 03:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


:Did you try the [[National Central Library]] of Taiwan? The library has a lot of collection about history of Tang dynasty. If you want to write a research paper for publication purpose, you need to know what have been written by others. Then the [https://ndltd.ncl.edu.tw/ National Digital Library of Theses and Dissertation in Taiwan] under the central library can be a good starting point. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
== what's to stop creation of a second Israel ==


== Battle of the Granicus ==
what's to prevent someone creating a second Israel in some less contentious part of the world but with exactly the same philosophy. It would offer all of the benefits except some of the infrastructure, the literal sacred history (though replicas could be made), or direct foreign aid / military aid since a lot of that seems to be due to geography?


This month [https://archaeologymag.com/2024/12/location-of-alexander-the-greats-battlefield/ some news broke] about identification of the Battle of the Granicus site, stating in particular: "Professor Reyhan Korpe, a historian from Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (ÇOMÜ) and Scientific Advisor to the “Alexander the Great Cultural Route” project, led the team that uncovered the battlefield". However, per [[Battle of the Granicus#Location]] it seems that the exact site has been known since at least [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-hellenic-studies/article/abs/battle-of-the-granicus-river/1C19CEF8F59308BED47331BE7063BB2C Hammond's 1980 article]. Am I reading the news correctly that what Korpe's team actually did was mapping Alexander’s journey to the Granicus rather than identifying the battle site per se? Per news, "Starting from Özbek village, Alexander’s army moved through Umurbey and Lapseki before descending into the Biga Plain". [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]]<sup>[[User talk:Brandmeister|talk]]</sup> 23:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The reason this might be done is that Israel proper spends a lot of money and time on security, this really takes resources away. I believe in Jewish people and others who would benefit from the law and progress of a Jewish state. What's to stop someone creating another one?


:If Körpe and his team wrote a paper about their discovery, I haven't found it, so I can only go by news articles reporting on their findings. Apparently, Körpe gave a presentation at the Çanakkale Provincial Directorate of Culture and Tourism for an audience of local mayors and district governors,<sup>[https://www.dailysabah.com/turkiye/site-for-alexander-the-greats-battle-of-granicus-identified-in-northwest-turkiye/news]</sup> and I think the news reports reflect what he said there. Obviously, the presentation was in Turkish. Turkish news sources, based on an item provided by [[Demirören News Agency|DHA]], quote him as saying, "{{tq|Bölgede yaptığımız araştırmalarda antik kaynakları da çok dikkatli okuyarak, yorumlayarak savaşın <u>aşağı yukarı</u> tam olarak nerede olduğunu, hangi köyler arasında olduğunu, ovanın tam olarak neresinde olduğunu bulduk.}}" [My underlining] Google Translate turns this into, "During our research in the region, by reading and interpreting ancient sources very carefully, we found out <u>more or less</u> exactly where the war took place, which villages it took place between, and where exactly on the plain it took place." I cannot reconcile "more or less" with "exactly".
There is enormous progress and R&D, education in Israel. This is overshadowed by the security issues - to the point that there are academic boycotts against Israel! A second Israel could give some academics freedom to publish within such a system as well. [[Special:Contributions/178.48.114.143|178.48.114.143]] ([[User talk:178.48.114.143|talk]]) 03:07, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
:The news reports do not reveal the location identified by Körpe, who is certainly aware of Hammond's theory, since he cited the latter's 1980 article in earlier publications. One possibility is that the claim will turn out to have been able to confirm Hammond's theory definitively. Another possibility is that the location they identified is not "more or less exactly" the same as that of Hammond's theory. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 02:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


= January 1 =
: The options are very limited. See [[Terra nullius#Current terrae nullius]]. -- [[User:JackofOz|<font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz</font>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face="Papyrus"><sup>[Talk]</sup></font>]] 05:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


== Has there ever been an incident of a serial killer murdering another serial killer? ==
::Other options might include repopulating [[Moisés Ville]] or the [[Jewish Autonomous Oblast]]? These might fit the OP's suggestion of a "secure" location; see my next (= outdented) remark. -- ''[[User:Deborahjay|Deborahjay]] ([[User talk:Deborahjay|talk]]) 07:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)''


Question as topic. Has this ever happened outside of the movies? [[Special:Contributions/146.90.140.99|146.90.140.99]] ([[User talk:146.90.140.99|talk]]) 05:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:The present state of Israel is not merely ''a'' Jewish homeland but the expression of [[Zionism|Zionism]]. The '''OP''''s proposed "second Israel...with exactly the same philosophy" doesn't account for the exclusive identity of the [[Land of Israel]] as ''the'' site of the Jewish homeland. ''-- [[User:Deborahjay|Deborahjay]] ([[User talk:Deborahjay|talk]]) 07:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)''


:This is an interesting question. Just because you can't find any incident, doesn't mean this kind of case never happened (type II error). [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:57, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
::There is relevant information at [[Jewish homeland]] and [[Proposals for a Jewish state]]. - [[User:Karenjc|<font color="red">Ka</font>]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]] 07:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


:Apparently yes: [[Dean Corll]] was killed by one of his his accomplices, [[Elmer Wayne Henley]]. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 12:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
1. For your answers regarding territory - couldn't a territory be bought or acquired? 2. couldn't second israel also have the same zionist philosophy and call itself ''the'' site of the Jewish homeland, on historically false grounds? Mormonism is, historically, far more 'false' in its identification. Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Relation_to_mainstream_Christianity - the first sentence says mormons consider themselves Christians. hoewver, they added a book to the bible. So, obviously a big leap of faith was required - however, after making htis, they established a thriving community in Utah. Should an appropriate territory be acquried, couldn't 'second Israel' do the same thing, while holding the same beliefs about its territory (though this is absurd, as it would just be some random territory) as Israel? If this aspect of the religion is important to someone, obviously second israelis would be derided for their belief. However, if someone doesn't care, then who cares that it's obviously as false as the golden plates?


Could you go into other issues that there would be with this? [[Special:Contributions/178.48.114.143|178.48.114.143]] ([[User talk:178.48.114.143|talk]]) 09:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
::Of course it would be more notable if the two were not connected to each other. --[[Special:Contributions/142.112.149.206|142.112.149.206]] ([[User talk:142.112.149.206|talk]]) 08:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


:If you're including underworld figures, this happens not infrequently. As an Aussie, a case that springs to mind was [[Andrew Veniamin]] murdering [[Victor Pierce]]. Both underworld serial murderers. I'm sure there are many similar cases in organised crime. [[User:Eliyohub|Eliyohub]] ([[User talk:Eliyohub|talk]]) 08:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:Sure, there's plenty of people believing in a bunch of fiction. The problem is, in order for it to work, one needs to get people to believe it. If you tell any Jew today that Jerusalem is actually located on a remote island in Micronesia, he'll laugh in your face. In order for a falsehood to gain great acceptance, there needs to be a great deal of ignorance first. In Joseph's Smith's day, very little was known of the prehistory of the Americas, and in the midst of much speculation, it was quite easy to come up with a story that somewhat filled the void of knowledge. It's a completely different story with Israel, there's just no possibility of credibly denying its history. - [[User:Lindert|Lindert]] ([[User talk:Lindert|talk]]) 09:35, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
::Aren't hired killers distinct from the usual concept of a serial killer? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


:Outside the movies? Sure, on [[Dexter (TV series)|TV]]. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 21:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:In answer to the academic aspect of the question: there's already a technologically advanced nation with a numerically (though not proportionally) large Jewish population who are able to conduct research and scholarship free from (most) boycotts: the United States. As Deborahjay rightly points out, the perceived need for Israel to exist in its present political shape is directly linked to its specific location. Without the Land of Israel for the State of Israel to be located in, Zionism makes no sense. Note that as the location of Jerusalem is also important for Christians and Muslims, you'd have more than half the world against you if you tried your wacky 'falsification' plan. You appear to be treating the entire thing as a 'toy problem' rather than the lived experiences of millions of people. No matter how deep my own misgivings about the Israeli state and especially its current politics, I'm not about to deny that it's home to so many people, and that their lives and experiences are bound up with the land in complex personal, religious, political and social ways. You cannot even begin to address the issues that the State of Israel raises unless you acknowledge the reality of those people and their experiences and needs. (The same argument, ''mutatis mutandis'', applies to the other nations and peoples of the Middle East too, which is what makes it so intractable.) [[User:AlexTiefling|AlexTiefling]] ([[User talk:AlexTiefling|talk]]) 11:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
:The Dexter character from the multiple Dexter series is based on [[Pedro Rodrigues Filho]], who killed criminals, including murderers. It is necessary to decide how many merders each of those murders did in order to decide if you would want to classify them as serial killers or just general murderers. [[Special:Contributions/68.187.174.155|68.187.174.155]] ([[User talk:68.187.174.155|talk]]) 19:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
::It sounds like the ''[[Death Wish (1974 film)]]'' film series might have also drawn inspiration from Filho. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)


== Another serial killer question ==
::To be more specific on the first point you made, [[American Jews|there are more people who identify as Jewish in the U.S. than in Israel itself.]] And to reinforce all of the other points: the facile solution is no solution at all, and shows a great ignorance of the history and culture involved. There is no means of "erasing" the cultural memory of the Jewish people and of the importance of the land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem from their cultural history anymore than doing the same for Mecca from the cultural legacy of Muslims. It is patently ridiculous. Whether [[Zionism]] itself is enough to ''justify'' the existence of the State of Israel is perhaps a matter of political debate; but this is not the place for political debate. Zionism is certainly enough to ''explain'' the existence of the State of Israel, which should be enough for the OP. Learn about Zionism and about the history of Judaism, and one can easily understand ''why'' Israel is where it is. Any attempts to argue for or against its existence, however, are definitely NOT what this desk is about. --[[User:Jayron32|<font style="color:#000099">Jayron</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<font style="color:#009900">32</font>]]''''' 11:59, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


about 20 years ago, I saw a documentary where it was said that the majority of serial killers kill for sexual gratification, or for some sort of revenge against their upbringing, or because in their head that God (or someone else) told them to kill. But the FBI agent on the documentary said something about how their worst nightmare was an extremely intelligent, methodical killer who was doing what he did to make some sort of grand statement about society/political statement. That this sort of killer was one step ahead of law enforcement and knew all of their methods. Like a Hannibal Lecter type individual. He said that he could count on the fingers of one hand the sort of person who he was talking about, but that these killers were the most difficult of all to catch and by far the most dangerous. Can you tell me any examples of these killers? [[Special:Contributions/146.90.140.99|146.90.140.99]] ([[User talk:146.90.140.99|talk]]) 05:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:You may be interesting in reading on Jewish [[Territorialism]]. There is an exhibit at [[YIVO]] right now on the topic.[http://yivo.org/events/index.php?tid=150&aid=855]. --<font face="georgia">[[User:Atethnekos|Atethnekos]]&nbsp;</font><font face="georgia" size="1">([[User talk:Atethnekos|Discussion]],&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Atethnekos|Contributions]])</font> 15:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
:[[Ted Kaczynski]] ("the Unabomber") comes to mind. --[[Special:Contributions/142.112.149.206|142.112.149.206]] ([[User talk:142.112.149.206|talk]]) 07:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
::I second this. Ted the Unabomber only got finally caught by chance, only after his brother happened to recognise him. [[User:Eliyohub|Eliyohub]] ([[User talk:Eliyohub|talk]]) 08:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:More than a few killed for money; [[Michael Swango]] apparently just for joy. The case of [[Leopold and Loeb]] comes to mind, who hoped to demonstrate superior intellect; if they had not bungled their first killing despite spending seven months planning everything, more would surely have followed. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 15:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:[[Joseph Paul Franklin]]. [[User:Prezbo|Prezbo]] ([[User talk:Prezbo|talk]]) 13:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)


== Nahl's Portrait of the Royal Family of Hawaii ==
== Missing fire of London ==


[[British Movietone News]] covered the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOIsenLDU9o burning down of the Crystal Palace] in this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but apparently factual, film. At 00:15 it refers to 'the biggest London blaze since 1892'. What happened in 1892 that could be considered comparable to the Palace's demise, or at least sufficiently well-known to be referred to without further explanation?
In 1856 or 1857 (authenticating the date would be helpful too), [[Charles Christian Nahl]] created a portrait of the Royal Family of Hawaii on horseback that was exhibited in [[San Francisco]]. When and what was this exhibit? I see one source that said it was exhibited in the Mechanics' Institute Fair in 1857 but this [http://www.nytimes.com/1860/11/05/news/affairs-california-prince-lot-kamehameha-arrives-he-carries-himself-where-bay.html New York Times article] said that the painting was still being exhibited when [[Kamehameha V]] (a prince at the time) visited in 1860. How long was this exhibition? Also can anybody find out what happened to the original; source just said that it was lost with no info on who last owned it/saw it or what may have happened to it or other exhibition items like it after the event (maybe they were donated, destroyed, auction, etc). --[[User:KAVEBEAR|KAVEBEAR]] ([[User talk:KAVEBEAR|talk]]) 05:51, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


I can see nothing in [[History of London]], [[List of town and city fires]], [[List of fires]] or [[1892]]. The [https://londonfirejournal.blogspot.com/2007/05/welcome.html London Fire Journal] records "May 8, 1892 - Scott's Oyster Bar, Coventry Street. 4 dead.", but also lists later fires with larger death tolls. Does anyone have access to the Journal of the [[Royal Statistical Society]]'s article [https://academic.oup.com/jrsssa/article-abstract/56/1/124/7090013 ''Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892'']? <span class="nowrap">[[User:Verbarson|--&nbsp;Verbarson&nbsp;]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Verbarson|talk]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|edits]]</sub></span> 13:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
== Gojong ==


:I see the [[Great Fire of 1892]] destroyed half the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. But comparing that to [[The_Crystal_Palace#Destruction_by_fire|the Crystal Palace fire]], which destroyed only the Crystal Palace, is an odd choice. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 14:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Why did [[Gojong of the Korean Empire]] succeed to the Korean throne instead of his father [[Heungseon Daewongun]] and what were the circumstances surrounding his accession after [[Cheoljong of Joseon]]'s death? Did they had to search for him?--[[User:KAVEBEAR|KAVEBEAR]] ([[User talk:KAVEBEAR|talk]]) 08:53, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
::It would also be odd to call it a "London blaze". &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 15:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)


:::The closest I found was the [[1861 Tooley Street fire]]. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 16:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
== hamid karzai departure from afhganistan ==
::::Also a large fire at Wood Street in the City in 1882 (perhaps later mistaken for 1892?). [https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13518096] [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 16:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::I too wonder whether the Movietone newsreader was the victim of a typo. In December ''1897'' [[Cripplegate]] suffered "the greatest fire...that has occurred in the City since the Great Fire of 1666". [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gJ7uvG29enQC&pg=PA91&dq=%221897+-+an+inquiry+respecting+the+greatest+fire+(+that+in+Cripplegate+)+that+has+occurred+in+the+City%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOwqqy-daKAxUHXEEAHeoYKXAQ6AF6BAgGEAI#v=onepage&q=%221897%20-%20an%20inquiry%20respecting%20the%20greatest%20fire%20(%20that%20in%20Cripplegate%20)%20that%20has%20occurred%20in%20the%20City%22&f=false]. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 11:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC) That's also mentioned, I now see, in Verbarson's London Fire Journal link. --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


:{{re|Verbarson}} ''Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892'' is available on JSTOR as part of the Wikipedia Library. It doesn't give details of any individual fires. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 16:51, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
i am an afghan complete allegiance to SIR HAMID KARZAI and i read america leaves and somme comments speaking of Karzai abandoning the country with america. is that true? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Karzaf|Karzaf]] ([[User talk:Karzaf|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Karzaf|contribs]]) 16:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::{{Re|DuncanHill}}, so it is. The DOI link in that article is broken; I should have been more persistent with the JSTOR search. Thank you. <span class="nowrap">[[User:Verbarson|--&nbsp;Verbarson&nbsp;]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Verbarson|talk]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|edits]]</sub></span> 17:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
:Unexpectedly, from the ''Portland Guardian'' (that's [[Portland, Victoria]]): [https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65441175 GREAT FIRE IN LIONDON. A great fire is raging in the heart of the London ducks.] Dated 26 November 1892. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 07:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
::Oh, the poor ducks. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
::<small>The whole OCR transcript of that blurred newspaper column is hilarious. "The fames have obtained a firm bold", indeed! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.6.84.253|94.6.84.253]] ([[User talk:94.6.84.253|talk]]) 12:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
::Setting aside the unsung history of the passionate ducks of London, what I see in that clipping is:
::* 1892 - Australia is still a colony (18+ years to go)
::* which is linked to the UK by (i) long-distance shipping, and (ii) [[Submarine communications cable#Cable to India, Singapore, East Asia and Australia|telegraph cables]]
::* because of (i), the London docks are economically important
::* because of (ii), they get daily updates from London
::Therefore, the state of the London docks (and the possible fate of the Australian ships there) is of greater importance to Australian merchants than it is to most Londoners. So headlines in Portland may not reflect the lesser priority of that news in the UK? <span class="nowrap">[[User:Verbarson|--&nbsp;Verbarson&nbsp;]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Verbarson|talk]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|edits]]</sub></span> 17:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Yes, I was highly impressed by the rapidity of the Victorian Victorian telegraph system there. But my money's on Antiquary's theory, above - I think the newsreel announcer's script had 1892 as a typo for 1897. [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 18:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Which I have finally found (in WP) at [[Timeline of London (19th century)#1890 to 1899]] (using the same cite as Antiquary). It does look persuasively big ("The Greatest Fire of Modern Times" - [[The Star (1888–1960)|''Star'']]), though there were no fatalities. Despite that, an inquest was held. It sounds much more likely than the docks fire to have been memorable in 1936. <span class="nowrap">[[User:Verbarson|--&nbsp;Verbarson&nbsp;]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Verbarson|talk]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Verbarson|edits]]</sub></span> 19:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)


= January 4 =

== Could the Sack of [[Jericho]] be almost ==

historical in the sense that the story of what happened, happened to a different city but was transferred to Jericho?[[User:Richard L. Peterson|Rich]] ([[User talk:Richard L. Peterson|talk]]) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:It might be. But then again, it might not be. Following whatever links there are to the subject within the article might be a good start for finding out about whatever theories there might be. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:To believe that the events in the story are historical, whether for Jericho or another city, amounts to believing in a miracle. Barring miracles, no amount of horn-blowing and shouting can bring defensive walls down.
:Jericho was destroyed in the 16th century BCE. The first version of the [[Book of Joshua]] was written in the late 7th century BCE, so there are 9 centuries between the destruction and the recording of the story. An orally transmitted account, passed on through some thirty generations, might have undergone considerable changes, turning a conquest with conventional war practices, possibly with sound effects meant to install fear in the besieged, into a miraculous event. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

:[Edit Conflicts] The sack was described in the [[Book of Joshua]], which however was likely compiled around 640–540 BCE, some six or seven centuries after the supposed Hebrew conquest of Canaan. Some scholars now discount the whole Exodus and Conquest narrative as political lobbying written by [[Babylonian captivity|Jewish exiles in Babylonia]] (which the Persians later took over) hoping to be given control over the former territory of Israel as well as being restored to their native Judah.
:The narrative logically explains why a people once 'Egyptian slaves' (like all subjects of the Pharoah) were later free in Canaan, but by then it was likely forgotten that Egypt once controlled almost the entirety of Canaan, from which it withdrew in the [[Late Bronze Age collapse|Late Bronze Age Collapse]]. The Hebrew peoples of the (always separate) states of Israel and Judah emerged from Canaanite culture ''in situ'', though minor folk movements (for example, of the [[Tribe of Levi]], who often had Egyptian names) may have had a role. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.6.84.253|94.6.84.253]] ([[User talk:94.6.84.253|talk]]) 10:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I heard the sack of Jericho in book of Joshua was an explanatory myth, not some kind of Exile claim to ownership, which is more logical anyway. If there were a more recent city that was sacked, it would be less than the estimate of 30 geneations of remembrance. I did forget to stress that when I asked if the story could be almost historical that I wasn't suggesting that Jericho's walls were supernaturally destroyed by trumpets. After all, the actual method of conquest in the story could be the connivance of the traitor Rahab.[[User:Richard L. Peterson|Rich]] ([[User talk:Richard L. Peterson|talk]]) 02:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Oh, certainly the myth likely existed before it was consolidated with others into the written documents, just as stories about the mythical [[Danel]] may have been adapted into the fictional [[Daniel (biblical figure)|Daniel]] of the supposedly contemporary [[Book of Daniel]] describing his exploits in the 6th century BCE court of [[Nebuchadnezzar II]], although scholars generally agree that this was actually written in the period 167–163 BCE. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.6.84.253|94.6.84.253]] ([[User talk:94.6.84.253|talk]]) 07:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

::The Israelites partly emerged ''in situ'' (though there was also a definite nomad/pastoralist component), especially along the West Bank hill-chain (running in an approximate north-south direction) where the [[Four-room house]] took hold among the rural inhabitants there. They were not originally city-dwellers, and their culture could not have been consolidated until the power of the Canaanite cities in that area had declined, and it's not too hard to believe that they sometimes moved against what cities remained, so that part of the conquest narrative is not necessarily a pure myth. Jericho was in the valley (not along the hill-chain), so was not part of the core settled rural agricultural four-room house area, but was inhabited more by pastoralists/animal-herders who became affiliated... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 21:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

==Accessibility, for URLs in text document==
We've been asked to increase the accessibility of all documents we produce, esp. syllabi. I use WordPerfect, where I don't seem to be able to have a URL with a descriptive text in the way Word allows. 508 is the operative term. I'm trying this out: "Princeton University has some handy tips on what is called “active reading, on this webpage: https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/active-reading-strategies." In other words, descriptive text followed by a bare URL. Is that good for screen readers? {{U|Graham87}}, how does this look/sound to you? Thanks for your help, [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 18:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Drmies}} I wouldn't make a general rule about that as it's context-dependent ... depending on how many URL's are in a document, reading them might get annoying. In general I'd prefer to read a link with descriptive text rather than a raw URL, because the latter aren't always very human-readable ... but I don't think this is really an accessibility issue; just do what would make sense for a sighted reader here. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 00:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::[[User:Graham87|Graham87]], thanks. There's only one or two in a ten-page document. According to our bosses, this is an accessibility issue--but it seems to me as if someone sounded an alarm and now everyone who doesn't actually know much about the issue is telling us to comply with a set of directives which they haven't given us. Instead, we are directed to some self-help course that involves only Word. It's fun. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:Stop using WordPerfect and start using Word. --[[User:Viennese Waltz|Viennese Waltz]] 07:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::I don't know why, but it seems many legal professionals prefer WordPerfect. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 10:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::[[User:Viennese Waltz|Viennese Waltz]], thanks so much for that helpful suggestion. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:You can create a hyperlink to a file using WordPerfect. First, you select text or a graphic you want to create a hyperlink. Then you click “Tools”, select “Hyperlink” and then type a path or document you want to link to. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 10:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::[[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]], that sounds like it might work: thank you. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{small|Do web browsers display WordPerfect documents? I don't think I have a WordPerfect viewing app installed on my platform (macOS). Does anyone have a [[URL]] of a WordPerfect document handy? &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}}
::[[User:Lambiam]], WP translates easily to PDF and to Word. I use PDFs in my [[Learning management system|LMS]]. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::You can see why WordPerfect is popular in legal circles at [[WordPerfect#Key characteristics]] (fourth bullet point) and [[WordPerfect#Faithful customers]]. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23A8:1:D801:8C31:BAC2:88CF:A92B|2A00:23A8:1:D801:8C31:BAC2:88CF:A92B]] ([[User talk:2A00:23A8:1:D801:8C31:BAC2:88CF:A92B|talk]]) 16:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I don't have the feeling this answers my question. Would I have to find and install an app that translates .wpd documents to .pdf or .doc documents? Would I then be able to tell my browser to use this app? The question is informative, not meant to bash a product that I have zero familiarity with. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 17:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::::I've opened early WordPerfect (WP 5.1) documents using both Word and Firefox without any need for a third party translator. The only trick was changing the file extension to .WPD so that my computer could create the file association more easily. In the old days, file extensions were not so rigorously restrictive and many files ended up with extensions like .01 or .v4 or whatever. [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 17:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::I cannot check if it would work for me, for lack of access to any WordPerfect document of any age. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 21:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::[https://search.justice.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=justice-archive&query=wordperfect Here's a bunch of them, in the DOJ archives.] [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 00:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks, finally an answer. When I click on a {{mono|.wpd}} link, the file is downloaded. I can then open and view it with [[LibreOffice]]. (I can also open it with [[Apache OpenOffice|OpenOffice]], but then I get to see garbage like ╖#<m\r╛∞¼_4YÖ¤ⁿVíüd╤Y.) &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, web browsers do display WordPerfect documents. If you google “wpd online viewer”, you will find a lot of them. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:::When I google [https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9Cwpd+online+viewer%E2%80%9D&udm=14 [{{mono|“wpd online viewer”}}&#x5d;], I get two hits, one to this page and one to [https://fileproinfo.com/tools/viewer/wpd a site] where you can <u>upload</u> a WPD document in order to be able to view it online. What happens when you view an html page with something like {{mono|<nowiki><a href="file:///my-document.wpd">Looky here!</a></nowiki>}} embedded? &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Yes, you're right. Only Docx2doc (https://www.docx2doc.com/convert) and [[Jumpshare]] provide online viewers now. However, there are still other offline alternative, such as Cisdem (https://www.cisdem.com/document-reader-mac.html) and [[Apache OpenOffice|Apache]]. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Some other text editors, such as [[TextMaker]], can open and view WPD files. However, after editing, the WPD files can only be saved as other formats, such as docx or doc. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

One more thing that just came up--we got rapped on the fingers though the mandatory "training" didn't touch on it. We've been told that hyphens are bad. The internet tells me that screenreaders have trouble with hyphenated words, but does this apply also to date ranges? {{U|Graham87}}, does yours get this right, "Spring Break: 17-21 March"? For now I'm going with "Spring Break, 17 to 21 March", but it just doesn't look good to my traditional eyes. And on top of that I have to use sans serif fonts... [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
*To give another example, I have to redo this: "Final grades are computed along the following scale: A: 90-100; B+: 87-89; B: 80-86; C+: 77-79; C: 70-76; D+: 67-69; D: 60-66; F: Below 60." [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
**{{replyto|Drmies}} Under its default setting my screen reader does read out the hyphens, but I have my punctuation set lower than normal because I don't like hearing too much information so it doesn't for me. The other major Windows screen reader, [[NonVisual Desktop Access|NVDA]], also reads them out by default. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 01:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
***Thanks [[User:Graham87|Graham87]]--I appreciate your expertise. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
***:As recently discussed on the Help or Teahouse desk, a date or other range should ''technically'' use an unspaced [[En Dash]], not a hyphen (according to most manuals of style, including our own), but I doubt that screen readers would notice the difference. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.6.84.253|94.6.84.253]] ([[User talk:94.6.84.253|talk]]) 08:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

= January 5 =

== How to search for awkwardly named topics ==

On and off I've been looking for good sources for the concepts of [[general union]] and [[trade union federation]] so as to improve the articles, but every time I try I only get one or two somewhat helpful results. Many of the results are not of material about the concepts of general union or trade union federations, but often about a ''specific'' instance of them, and as a result hard to gleen a lot from about the broader concept. Typcially this is because of issues such as many general unions being named as such (for example [[Transport & General Workers' Union]]). I'm aware of the search trick that'd be something like {{tq|"general union" -Transport & General Workers' Union}} but I've found it largely cumbersome and ineffective, often seeming to filter out any potential material all together

Thought I'd ask because I'd like to improve those articles, and this is an issue I'm sure would come up again for me otherwise on other articles [[User:Bejakyo|Bejakyo]] ([[User talk:Bejakyo|talk]]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

:Do any of the articles listed at [[Unionism]] help? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
:If you search for [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22a+trade+union+federation%22+-%22is+a+trade+union+federation%22&hl=en {{mono|["a trade union federation" -"is a trade union federation"&#x5d;}}], most hits will not be about a specific instance. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

= January 6 =

== What does the [[Thawabit]] consist of? ==

I asked about this at the article talk page and WikiProject Palestine, no response. Maybe it's not a question Wikipedia can answer, but I'm curious and it would improve the article. [[User:Prezbo|Prezbo]] ([[User talk:Prezbo|talk]]) 09:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*It's acronym (or an abbreviation) for the four principles enumerated in the article. Like how the [[United States Bill of Rights|Bill of Rights]] ''is'' the first ten amendments to the US Constitution. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 13:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*:''Thawabit'' is short for ''alThawabit alWataniat alFilastinia'', the "Palestinian National Constants". ''Thawabit'' is the plural of ''[[wikt:ثابت#Noun|thabit]]'', "something permanent or invariable; constant". &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*:What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the article is correct. The sourcing is thin, reference are paywalled, offline, or dead, and Google isn't helpful. Other scholarly and activist sources give different versions of the Thawabet, e.g.[https://books.google.com/books?id=ysdyCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&dq=thawabit+palestine&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSwMDm4NaKAxViElkFHUtYNM0Q6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q=thawabit%20palestine&f=false This one] adds the release of Palestinian prisoners, [https://www.instagram.com/eu_jps/p/C_D3DSZIL_n/?img_index=8 this one] adds that Palestine is indivisible. The article says that these principles were formulated by the PLO in 1977 but doesn't link to a primary source (like the Bill of Rights). I don't know if you're a subject matter expert here, I'm not--actually trying to figure this out. [[User:Prezbo|Prezbo]] ([[User talk:Prezbo|talk]]) 13:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
*::I was able to access the paywalled articles through the Wikipedia library, which adds a little more clarity. [[User:Prezbo|Prezbo]] ([[User talk:Prezbo|talk]]) 10:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

:According to [https://books.google.com/books?id=ysdyCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA138&dq=%22+the+objection+to+recognize+the+State+of+Israel+as+the+nation-state+of+the+Jewish+people%22&hl=en this source], a fifth principle was added in 2012: "the objection to recognize the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people". However, I cannot find this in the [https://web.archive.org/web/20131019163530/http://palestineun.org/category/mission-documents/statements/page/2/ cited source] &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 13:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I checked the Arabic Wikipedia article before I responded above, and they list the same four principles. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 13:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::That appears to be a translation of the English article, so this doesn't mean much to me. [[User:Prezbo|Prezbo]] ([[User talk:Prezbo|talk]]) 13:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::I've poked around a little, and there doesn't appear to have been any change. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 13:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::The list in the book I linked to above is not the same as that in our article. The book does not include a "right to resistance", but demands the release by Israel of all Palestinian prisoners. It would be good to have a sourced, authoritative version, in particular the actual 1977 formulation by the PLO. Of course, nothing is so changeable as political principles, so one should expect non-trivial amendments made in the course of time. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 14:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::That book is incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 21:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::How do you know? &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::The text does not explicitly say, "among others", but the use of {{lang|ar|بها بما في ذلك}} suggests that this list of four principles is not exhaustive. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

= January 7 =

== Is there such a thing as a joke type index? ==

Has anyone produced an index of joke types and schemata (schemes?) along the lines of the [[Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index]] for folk tales? More generally what kind of studies of the structure of jokes and humor are available? Has anyone come up with an A.I. that can generate new jokes? [[Special:Contributions/178.51.8.23|178.51.8.23]] ([[User talk:178.51.8.23|talk]]) 18:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:For starters, there's [[Index of joke types]]. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:AI generated jokes have been around for years. Just Google for it. They range from weird to meh. [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|<sup>feed me</sup>]] 10:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:[[Gershon Legman]] made an attempt of sorts in his two joke collections, but it was kind of a half-assed approach: there are a bunch of indices printed on pages, but no key tying them together per se. His interest was in the core of the subject of the joke, so he might have said, for example, that ''these'' jokes were all based on unresolved Oedipal drives while ''those'' jokes were based on hatred of the mother (he was a capital "F" Freudian). The link Bugs shared is more about the formats of the jokes themselves, though some are also differentiated by their subject (albeit in a more superficial way than Legman attempted). [[User:Matt Deres|Matt Deres]] ([[User talk:Matt Deres|talk]]) 21:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

:[[Arthur Koestler]] has attempted to develop a theory of humour (as well as art and discovery), first in ''Insight and Outlook'' (1949) and slightly elaborated further in ''[[The Act of Creation]]'' (1964). He did, however, not develop a typology of jokes. IMO [[Victor Raskin]]'s [[Theories of humor#Script-based semantic theory of humor|script-based semantic theory of humor]] presented in ''Semantic Mechanisms of Humor'' (1985) is essentially the same as Koestler's, but Raskin does not reference Koestler in the book. For an extensive overview of theories of humour see [https://www.oalib.com/research/2052736 Contemporary Linguistic Theories of Humour]. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 00:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

= January 8 =

== ''The Nest'' magazine, UK, 1920s ==

I have a copy of {{cite book | title = The Grocer's Window Book | year = 1922 | location = London | publisher = The Nest Magazine }}, "arranged by The Editor of ''The Nest''". The address of ''The Nest'' Magazine is given as 15 Arthur Street, London, EC4. It contains suggestions for arranging window displays in an attractive manner to attract customers into independent grocer's shops. I would be interested to know more about ''The Nest''. I suspect it may have something to do with Nestles Milk, as 1) the back cover is a full-page advertisement for Nestles and Ideal Milk, and there are several other adverts for Nestles products in the book, and 2) one of the suggested window displays involves spelling out "IDEAL" with tins of Ideal Milk. Thank you, [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 02:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

== Historical U.S. population data by age (year 1968) ==

In the year 1968, what percentage of the United States population was under 25 years old? I am wondering about this because I am watching the movie [[Wild in the Streets]], and want to know if a percentage claimed in the film was pulled out of a hat or was based in fact. [[Special:Contributions/2601:18A:C500:E830:CE4:140C:29E5:594F|2601:18A:C500:E830:CE4:140C:29E5:594F]] ([[User talk:2601:18A:C500:E830:CE4:140C:29E5:594F|talk]]) 04:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:What percentage did they give? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 05:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::52% (it's on the movie poster). [[User:Card_Zero|<span style=" background-color:#fffff0; border:1px #995; border-style:dotted solid solid dotted;">&nbsp;Card&nbsp;Zero&nbsp;</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Card_Zero|(talk)]] 16:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:Tabel No. 6 in the [http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1971-02.pdf 1971 US Census Report] (p. 8) gives, for 1960, {{val|80093}} Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of {{val|180007}} Kpeople, corresponding to 44.5%, and, for 1970, {{val|94095}} Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of {{val|204265}} Kpeople, corresponding to 46.1%. Interpolation results in an estimate of 45.8% for 1968. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 12:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

== Countries with greatest land mass ==

Can someone please fill in these blanks? Thank you.

1. Currently, the USA ranks as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

2. If the USA were to "annex" or "acquire" both Canada and Greenland, the USA would rank as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/32.209.69.24|32.209.69.24]] ([[User talk:32.209.69.24|talk]]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:See [[List of countries and dependencies by area]], which gives a nuanced answer to your first question, and the answer to your second question is obvious from the data in the article.-[[User:Gadfium|Gadfium]] ([[User talk:Gadfium|talk]]) 05:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

= January 9 =

Latest revision as of 01:39, 9 January 2025

Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.
Select a section:
Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

  • Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
  • Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
  • Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
  • Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
  • Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
  • Note:
    • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
    • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
    • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
    • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.



How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

  • The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.
See also:

December 26

[edit]

What would the president Trump brokered peace treaty in Ukraine look like?

[edit]

I know this is probably speculation, but going by what I've read in a few articles - how would the new president sort this out?

- the war stops

- Russia withdraws all troops from the invaded regions of Ukraine

- Ukraine withdraws all troops from the same regions

- these regions become a DMZ, under control of neither party for the next 25 years, patrolled by the United Nations (or perhaps the USA/Britain and China/North Korea jointly)

- Russia promises to leave Ukraine alone for 25 years

- Ukraine promises not to join NATO or the EU for 25 years

- A peace treaty will be signed

- The can will be kicked down the road for 25 years, at which point more discussions or wars will commence

So maybe the Americans will say "this is the best deal you're going to get, in the future we're going to be spending our money on our own people and no-one else - if you don't take it, we'll let the Russians roll right over you and good luck to you".

Is this basically what is being said now? I think this is what Vance envisioned. 146.90.140.99 (talk) 03:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The downside is that the residents of the buffer zone will be compelled to eat their pets. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots03:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or each other's pets. —Tamfang (talk) 21:52, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be overlooking one of the major obstacles to peace -- unless it suffers a stinging military defeat, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine which it's formally annexed -- Crimea and Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia... -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, Russia won't withdraw from territories belonging to 1990s Ukraine, but it is likely that Ukraine does not expect Russia to do so too. Restoring to pre-war territories and the independent of Crimean, Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, and Zaporizhzhia are the best Ukraine can hope for. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Never heard of any such plan. 25 years? This is completely made up. Can't say I'm surprised since this is the same guy who asked the previous "question". My understanding is that Wikipedia and the Reference Desk are not a forum for debate. This is not Facebook. But this guy seems to think otherwise. Anyway, there's no way that the territories Russia has annexed will ever go back to the Ukraine. The only question which remains is what guarantees can be given to Ukraine that Russia will never try something like this ever again and eat it up piecemeal. The best answer (from Ukraine's point of view) would have been that it join NATO but of course Russia won't have it. If not that, then what? This's exactly where the "art of the deal" comes in. Speculating in advance on Wikipedia is pointless. Better to do that on Facebook. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 03:49, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, by policy Wikipedia is not a forum and not a soapbox. But attend also to the policy Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Oh, and the guideline assume good faith is another good one.  Card Zero  (talk) 10:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Further, it's a bit pointless to tell an OP that WP is not a forum or a soapbox, but then immediately engage in debate with them about the matter they raise. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 18:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A politician's butt dominates his brain. What he is going to do is more important than what he had said. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Expect that a concept of a peace plan will be ready soon after day one. Until then we can only speculate whose concept. Will it be Musk's, Trump's, Vance's, Rubio's, Hegseth's, Kellogg's? The latter's plan is believed to involve Ukraine ceding the Donbas and Luhansk regions, as well as Crimea, to Russia,[1] after which the negotiators can proclaim: "Mission accomplished. Peace for our time."  --Lambiam 10:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't this one of those "crystal ball" things we are supposed to avoid here? - Jmabel | Talk 21:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Slowking Man (talk) 00:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the OP provided an actual source for this claim, then it could be discussed more concretely. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots00:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a claim, but a question, "What is being said now about the prospects and form of a Trump-brokered peace treaty?" Should the OP provide a source for this question? If the question is hard to answer, it is not by lack of sources (I gave one above), but because all kinds of folks are saying all kinds of things about it.  --Lambiam 19:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the plan may be, Putin reportedly doesn't like it.[2]  --Lambiam 22:38, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ID card replacement

[edit]

In California you can get a drivers' license (DL) from the DMV, which both serves as an ID card and attests that you are authorized to drive a car. Alternatively, from the same DMV, you can get a state ID card, which is the same as a DL except it doesn't let you drive. The card looks similar and the process for getting it (wait in line, fill in forms, get picture taken) is similar, though of course there is no driving test.

If you need a replacement drivers' license, you can request it online or through one of the DMV's self-service kiosks installed in various locations. That's reasonably convenient.

If you need a replacement ID card, you have to request it in person at a DMV office, involving travel, waiting in line, dealing with crowds, etc. DMV appointment shortens the wait but doesn't get rid of it. Plus the earliest available appointments are several weeks out.

My mom is elderly, doesn't drive, doesn't handle travel or waiting in line well, and needs a replacement ID card. I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process. Not looking for legal advice etc. but am just wondering if I'm overlooking something sane, rather than reflexive system justification. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

European (Brit) here, so responding with logic rather than knowledge, but . . . . If a replacement ID could be requested remotely and sent, it would probably be easier for some nefarious person to do so and obtain a fake ID; at least if attendance is required, the officials can tell that the 25-y-o illegal immigrant (say) they're seeing in front of them doesn't match the photo they already have of the elderly lady whose 'replacement' ID is being requested.
Drivers' licences have the additional safeguard that drivers are occasionally (often?) stopped by traffic police and asked to produce them, at which point discrepancies may be evident. {The poster formerly known as 87.812.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I guess there is some sense to that, though I haven't been stopped by police in quite a few years. I reached the DMV by phone and they say they won't issue an actual duplicate ID card: rather, they want to take a new picture of my mom and use that on the new card. Of course that's fine given that we have to go there anyway, but it's another way the DL procedure is different. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D (talk) 00:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What purpose does the ID card serve? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots04:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See Identity documents in the United States. These cards can be used for such purposes as boarding a plane, purchasing alcohol or cigarettes where proof of age is required, cashing a check, etc. Most folks use their driver's license for these purposes, but for the minority that does not drive, some form of official id is required from time to time, hence the delivery of such cards by states. --Xuxl (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just wondering under what circumstances a shut-in would ever use it. The OP could maybe explain. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots21:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OP did not describe a "shut-in". And anyway, have you ever heard the well-known phrase-or-saying "none of your fucking business"? DuncanHill (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you the OP? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots22:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not OP and not a shut-in, but ID is necessary for registration for some online services (including ID requirements for access to some state and federal websites that administer things like taxes and certain benefits). I've had to provide photos/scans of photo ID digitally for a couple other purposes, too, though I can't remember off the top of my head what those were. I think one might have been to verify an I-9 form for employment. And the ID number from my driver's license for others. At least a couple instances have been with private entities rather than governments. The security implications always make me wary. -- Avocado (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Virtually all of the private information of US citizens has been repeatedly compromised in the last decade. Not a single company or government entity has faced consequences, and no US legislation is in the works to protect our private information in the future. For only one small example, the personal info of 73 million AT&T account holders was released on the dark web this year.[3] In the US, if you're a private company, you can do just about anything and get away with it. If you're a private citizen, there's an entirely separate set of laws for you. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless someone affiliated with the CA DMV drops by here, I'm afraid none of us are going to be able to tell you why something is the way it is with them. Essentially it's requesting people to guess or predict at why X might be the case. Have you tried contacting them and asking them for an answer? You and/or her could also contact her CA state elected representatives and let them know your feelings on the matter. Sometimes representatives' offices will assist a constitutent with issues they're having involving government services ("constitutent services"). --Slowking Man (talk) 01:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If your mom is old and her medical condition affects her ability to perform daily activities (she couldn't handle the travel or waiting in line well), she can ask her medical doctor to complete a DS 3234 (Medical Certification) form to verify her status. Then you can help her to fill out a DS 3235 application form on the DMV website and submit the required documents accordingly. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process.
The Real ID Act contributed to the discrepancy in the replacment process, as did several notable fake ID rings on both coasts.[4][5] In other words, "this is why we can't have nice things". Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can't have nice things because those in power regulate the allocation of goods. To distinguish between the deserving and undeserving they need people to have IDs.  --Lambiam 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 27

[edit]

Building containing candle cabinets

[edit]

Is there a term (in pretty much any language) for a separate building next to a church, containing candle cabinets where people place votive candles? I've seen this mostly in Romania (and in at least one church in Catalonia), but suspect it is more widespread. (I've also seen just candle cabinets with no separate building, but I'm guessing that there is no term for that.) - Jmabel | Talk 01:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shrine might cover it, but I suspect there's a more specific term in at least one language. {The poster fornerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 21:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody contributed a couple of photos of these kind of cabinets to commons. File:Orthodoxe_Nonne_putzt_Kerzenöfchen.JPG and File:Behälter_für_Opferkerzen_an_einer_orthodoxen_Kirche_in_Rumänien.JPG. Both are in Romania, and outdoor. I suppose the purpose of the cabinet is to protect the candles from the weather? I see pictures of indoor racks for candles. One example is File:Religión en Isla Margarita, Valle del Espíritu Santo.jpg which is an upcoming Commons picture of the day. This small dark metal shed full of dripping wax is apparently located in or near to the rather pretty and well-lit Basilica of Our Lady of El Valle, but I saw nothing to tell me the spatial relationship. Some discussion, again about Romanian Eastern Orthodox traditions, in this Flickr photo's text, which calls them ... candle cabinets. (They protect the candles from wind and rain, and protect the church from the candles.)  Card Zero  (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Card Zero: the things you are posting are, precisely, candle cabinets. What I'm talking about are structures like a proper building, but with just a portal, no doors as such. Here's a rare non-Romanian example I photographed in 2001: File:Montserrat - prayer candles.jpg. Remarkably, I don't see any Romanian examples that really show the structure, they are all too close-in detailed. I'll try to see if I can find an example I may have shot but not yet uploaded. - Jmabel | Talk 04:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 28

[edit]

Truncated Indian map in Wikipedia

[edit]

Why is the map of India always appears truncated in all of Wikipedia pages, when there is no official annexing of Indian territories in Kashmir, by Pakistan and China nor its confirmation from Indian govt ? With Pakistan and China just claiming the territory, why the world map shows it as annexed by them, separating from India ? TravelLover05 (talk) 15:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The map at India shows Kashmir in light green, meaning "claimed but not controlled". It's not truncated, it's differently included.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see no 6 in Talk:India/FAQ ColinFine (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 29

[edit]

Set animal's name = sha?

[edit]

"In ancient Egyptian art, the Set animal, or sha,[citation needed]" - this seems like a major citation needed. Any help? Temerarius (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which article does that appear in? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots01:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It must be this article. Omidinist (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That term was in the original version of the article, written 15 years ago by an editor named "P Aculeius" who is still active. Maybe the OP could ask that user about it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots05:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Each time, the word šꜣ is written over the Seth-animal.[6]
  • Sometimes the animal is designated as sha (šꜣ) , but we are not certain at all whether this designation was its name.[7]
  • When referring to the ancient Egyptian terminology, the so-called sha-animal, as depicted and mentioned in the Middle Kingdom tombs of Beni Hasan, together with other fantastic creatures of the desert and including the griffin, closely resembles the Seth animal.[8]
  • šꜣ ‘Seth-animal’[9]
  • He claims that the domestic pig is called “sha,” the name of the Set-animal.[10]
Wiktionary gives šꜣ as meaning "wild pig", not mentioning use in connection with depictions of the Seth-animal. The hieroglyphs shown for šꜣ do not resemble those in the article Set animal, which instead are listed as ideograms in (or for) stẖ, the proper noun Seth.  --Lambiam 08:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! The reason I brought it up was because the hieroglyph for the set animal didn't have the sound value to match in jsesh.
Temerarius (talk) 22:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SAAE12
 
E12
The word sha (accompanying
depictions of the Set animal)
in hieroglyphs
IMO they should be removed, or, if this can be sourced, be replaced by one or more of the following two:  --Lambiam 09:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Budge's original drawing and second version of PharaohCrab's drawing; the original looked very different, and this one is clearly based on Budge's as traced by me in 2009, but without attribution.
The article—originally "Sha (animal)" was one of the first I wrote, or attempted to write, and was based on and built on the identification by E. A. Wallis Budge, in The Gods of the Egyptians, which uses the hieroglyph
M8
for the word "sha", and includes the illustration that I traced from a scan and uploaded to Commons (and which was included in the article from the time of its creation in 2009 until December 21, 2024 when User:PharaohCrab replaced it with his original version of the one shown above; see its history for what it looked like until yesterday). I have had very little to do with the article since User:Sonjaaa made substantial changes and moved it to "Seth animal" in 2010; although it's stayed on my watchlist, I long since stopped trying to interfere with it, as it seemed to me that other editors were determined to change it to the way they thought it should be, and I wasn't sophisticated enough to intervene or advocate effectively for my opinions. In fact the only edit by me I can see after that was fixing a typo.
As for the word sha, that is what Budge called it, based on the hieroglyph associated with it; I was writing about this specific creature, which according to Budge and some of the other sources quoted above has some degree of independence from Set, as it sometimes appears without him and is used as the determinative of one or two other deities, whose totemic animal it might also have been. One of the other scholars quoted above questions whether the word sha is the name of the animal, but still associates the word with the animal: Herman Te Velde's article, "Egyptian Hieroglyphs as Signs Symbols and Gods", quoted above, uses slightly modified versions of Budge's illustrations; his book Seth, God of Confusion is also quoted above, both with the transliteration šꜣ, which in "Egyptian Hieroglyphs" he also renders sha. Percy Newberry is the source cited by the Henry Thompson quotation above, claiming that sha referred to a domestic pig as well as the Set animal, and a different god distinct from Set, though sharing the same attributes (claims of which Thompson seems skeptical). Herman Te Velde also cites Newberry, though he offers a different explanation for the meaning of "sha" as "destiny". All Things Ancient Egypt, also quoted above, calls the animal "the so-called sha-animal", while Classification from Antiquity to Modern Times just uses šꜣ and "Seth-animal".
I'm not certain what the question here is; that the hieroglyph transliterated sha is somehow associated with the creature seems to have a clear scholarly consensus; most of the scholars use it as the name of the creature; Herman Te Velde is the only one who suggests that it might not be its name, though he doesn't conclude whether it is or isn't; and one general source says in passing "so-called sha-animal", which accepts that this is what it's typically referred to in scholarship, without endorsing it. Although Newberry made the connection with pigs, none of the sources seems to write the name with pig hieroglyphs as depicted above. Could you be clearer about what it is that's being discussed here? P Aculeius (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
things that start with sh
I asked because I couldn't find it in Gardiner (jsesh, no match when searching by sound value) or Budge (dictionary vol II.)
Temerarius (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

December 30

[edit]

I do not say the Frenchman will not come. I only say he will not come by sea.

[edit]

1. What is the ultimate source of this famous 1803 quote by John Jervis (1735 – 1823), 1st Earl of St Vincent, First Lord of the Admiralty at the time. I googled Books and no source is ever given except possibly another collection of quotations. The closest I got was: "At a parley in London while First Lord of the Admiralty 1803". That's just not good enough. Surely there must be someone who put this anecdote in writing for the first time.

2. Wouldn't you say this use of the simple present in English is not longer current in contemporary English, and that the modern equivalent would use present continuous forms "I'm not saying... I'm only saying..." (unless Lord Jervis meant to say he was in the habit of saying this; incidentally I do realize this should go to the Language Desk but I hope it's ok just this once)

178.51.7.23 (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming he's talking about England, does he propose building a bridge over the Channel? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots12:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about a tunnel? --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a joke. He's saying that the French won't invade under any circumstances (see English understatement). Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The First Lord of the Admiralty wouldn't be the one stopping them if the French came by tunnel (proposed in 1802) or air (the French did have hot air balloons). Any decent military officer would understand that an invasion by tunnel or balloon would have no chance of success, but this fear caused some English opposition against the Channel Tunnel for the next 150 years. Just hinting at the possibility of invasion by tunnel amongst military officers would be considered a joke.
Unless he was insulting the British Army (no, now I'm joking). PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The quoted wording varies somewhat. Our article John Jervis, 1st Earl of St Vincent has it as "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea" in an 1801 letter to the Board of Admiralty, cited to Andidora, Ronald (2000). Iron Admirals: Naval Leadership in the Twentieth Century. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 3. ISBN 978-0-313-31266-3.. Our article British anti-invasion preparations of 1803–05 has Jervis telling the House of Lords "I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea", and then immediately, and without citation, saying it was more probably Keith. I can't say I've ever seen it attributed to Keith anywhere else. DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, Andidora does not in fact say it was in a letter to the Board of Admiralty, nor does he explicitly say 1801. And his source, The Age of Nelson by G J Marcus has it as Jervis telling the House of Lords sometime during the scare of '03-'05. Marcus doesn't give a source. DuncanHill (talk) 13:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Southey was attributing it to Lord St Vincent as early as 1806, and while I don't want to put too much weight on his phrase "used to say" it does at any rate raise the possibility that St Vincent said (or wrote) it more than once. Perhaps Marcus and our St Vincent article are both right. --Antiquary (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Thanks. Some modern accounts (not Southey apparently) claim Lord St Vincent was speaking in the House of Lords. If that was the case, wouldn't it be found in the parliamentary record? How far back does the parliamentary record go for the House of Commons and/or the House of Lords. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for (2), the tense is still alive and kicking, if I do say so myself. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't say? [An idiom actually meaning "You say that, do you?", although I dare say most of you know that.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not what I am asking. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 05:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then I will answer you more directly. You are wrong: while the usage you quote is less common than it once was, it is still current, according to my experience as a native BrE speaker for over 65 years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 13:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I kid you not.  --Lambiam 23:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What percentage of Ancient Greek literature was preserved?

[edit]

Has anyone seen an estimate of what percentage of Ancient Greek literature (broadly understood: literature proper, poetry, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, etc.) was preserved. It doesn't matter how you define "Ancient Greek literature", or if you mean the works available in 100 BC or 1 AD or 100 AD or 200 AD... Works were lost even in antiquity. I'm just trying to get a rough idea and was wondering if anyone ever tried to work out an estimate. 178.51.7.23 (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an answer handy for you at the moment, but I can tell you that people have tried to work out an estimate for this, at least from the perspective of "how many manuscripts containing such literature managed to survive past the early Middle Ages". We've worked this one out, with many caveats, by comparing library catalogues from very early monasteries to known survivals and estimating the loss rate. -- asilvering (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One estimate is (less than) [11] one percent. --Askedonty (talk) 20:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have a Lost literary work article with a large "Antiquity" section. AnonMoos (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are works known to have existed, because they were mentioned and sometimes even quoted in works that have survived. These known lost works are probably only a small fraction of all that have been lost.  --Lambiam 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Few things which might be helpful:
  1. So profuse was Galen's output that the surviving texts represent nearly half of all the extant literature from ancient Greece.[1]
  2. Although not just Greek, but only 1% of ancient literature survives.[2] --ExclusiveEditor 🔔 Ping Me! 11:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following quantities are known: the number of preserved works, the (unknown) number of lost works, and the number of lost works of which we know, through mentions in preserved works. In a (very) naive model, let stand for the probability that a given work (lost or preserved) is mentioned in some other preserved work (so ). The expected number of mentions of preserved works in other preserved works is then If we have the numerical value of the latter quantity (which is theoretically obtainable by scanning all preserved works), we can obtain an estimate for and compute
 --Lambiam 13:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even without seeing any professional estimate of the kind I'm asking about here, my ballpark figure was that it had to be less than 1 percent, simply from noting how little of even the most celebrated and important authors has been preserved (e.g. about 5 percent for Sophocles) and how there are hundreds of authors and hundreds of works for which we only have the titles and maybe a few quotes, not to mention all those works of which we have not an inkling, the number of which it is, for this very reason, extremely hard to estimate.
  • But as a corollary to my first question I have another three:
  • 1. Has any modern historian tackled this paradox, namely the enormous influence that the culture of the Ancient World has had on the West while at the same time how little we actually know about that culture, and as a consequence the problem that we seem to believe that we know much more than we actually do? in other words that our image of it that has had this influence on Western culture might be to some extent a modern creation and might be very different of what it actually was?
  • 2. I understand that in this regard there can be the opposite opinion (or we can call it a hypothesis, or an article of faith) which is the one that is commonly held (at least implicitly): that despite all that was lost the main features of our knowledge of the culture of the Ancient World are secure and that no lost work is likely to have modified the fundamentals? Like I said this seems to be the position that is commonly implicitly held, but I'm interested to hear if any historian has discussed this question and defended this position explicitly in a principled way?
  • 3. Finally to what extent is the position mentioned in point 2 simply a result of ignorance (people not being aware of how much was lost)? How widespread is (in the West) the knowledge of how much was lost? How has that awareness developed in the West, both at the level of the experts and that of the culture in general, since say the 15th century? Have you encountered any discussions of these points?

178.51.7.23 (talk) 08:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issues touched upon are major topics in historiography as well as the philosophy of history, not only for the Ancient (Classical) World but for all historical study. Traditionally, historians have concentrated on the culture of the high and mighty. The imprint on the historical record by hoi polloi is much more difficult to detect, except in the rare instances where they rose up, so what we think of as "the" culture of any society is that of a happy few. Note also that "the culture of the Ancient World" covers a period of more than ten centuries, in which kingdoms and empires rose and fell, states and colonies were founded and conquered, in an endless successions of wars and intrigues. On almost any philosophical issue imaginable, including natural philosophy, ancient philosophers have held contrary views. It is not clear how to define "the" culture of the Ancient World, and neither is it clear how to define the degree to which this culture has influenced modern Western society. It may be argued that the influence of say Plato or Sophocles has largely remained confined to an upper crust. I think historians studying this are well aware of the limitations of their source material, including the fact that history is written by the victors.  --Lambiam 13:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
178.51.7.23 -- Think of it this way: What did it mean to "publish" something in the ancient world? You had at least one written manuscript of your work -- rarely more than a handful of such manuscripts. You could show what you had written to your friends, have it delivered to influential people, bequeath it to your heirs, or donate it to an archive or research collection (almost none of which were meaningfully public libraries in the modern sense of that phrase). However you chose to do it, once you were gone, the perpetuation of your work depended on other people having enough interest in it to do the laborious work of copying the manuscript, or being willing to pay to have a copy made. Works of literature which did not interest other people enough to copy manuscripts of it were almost always eventually lost, which ensured that a lot of tedious and worthless stuff was filtered out. Of course, pagan literary connoisseurs, Christian monks, Syriac and Arabic translators seeking Greek knowledge, and Renaissance Humanists all had different ideas of what was worth preserving, but between them, they ensured that a lot of interesting or engaging or informative works ended up surviving from ancient times. I'm sure that a number of worthy books still slipped through the gaps, but some losses were very natural and to be expected; for example, some linguists really wish that Claudius's book on the Etruscan language had survived, but it's not surprising that it didn't, since it would not have generally interested ancient, medieval, or renaissance literate people in the same way it would interest modern scholars struggling with Etruscan inscriptions.
By the way, college bookstores on or near campuses of universities which had a Classics program sometimes used to have a small section devoted to the small green-backed (Greek) and red-backed (Latin) volumes of the Loeb Classical Library, and you could get an idea of what survived from ancient times (and isn't very obscure or fragmentary) by perusing the shelves... AnonMoos (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed - at the other end of the scale, the Description of Greece by Pausanias seems to have survived into the Middle Ages in a single MS (now of course lost), and there are no ancient references to either it or him known. Since the Renaissance it has been continuously in print. Johnbod (talk) 03:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

December 31

[edit]

Was the fictional character "The Jackal" (as played by Edward Fox and Bruce Willis) based on Carlos The Jackal?

[edit]

Talking about the fictional assassin from the books and films. I once read somewhere that the real Carlos The Jackal didn't like being compared to the fictional character, because he said he was a professional Marxist revolutionary, not merely a hitman for hire to the highest bidder (not in the article about him at the moment, so maybe not true). 146.90.140.99 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the character wasn't based on Carlos. The films are based on the 1971 historical fiction novel The Day of the Jackal by Frederick Forsyth, which begins with a fairly accurate account of the actual 1962 assassination attempt on Charles de Gaulle by the French Air Force lieutenant colonel Jean Bastien-Thiry, which failed. Subsequently in the fictional plot the terrorists hire an unnamed English professional hitman whom they give the codename 'The Jackal'.
Carlos the Jackal was a Venezuelan terrorist named Ilich Ramírez Sánchez operating in the 1970s and '80s. He was given the cover name 'Carlos' when in 1971 he joined the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. When authorities found some of his weapons stashed in a friend's house, a copy of Forsyth's novel was noticed on his friend's bookshelf, and a Guardian journalist then invented the nickname, as journalists are wont to do. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.223.204 (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's also the fictionalised Ilich Ramírez Sánchez / Carlos the Jackal from the Jason Bourne novels. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

[edit]

I am on to creating an article on Lu Chun [zh] soon. If anyone has got references about him other than those on google, it would be great if you could share them here. Thanks, ExclusiveEditor 🔔 Ping Me! 11:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try the National Central Library of Taiwan? The library has a lot of collection about history of Tang dynasty. If you want to write a research paper for publication purpose, you need to know what have been written by others. Then the National Digital Library of Theses and Dissertation in Taiwan under the central library can be a good starting point. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of the Granicus

[edit]

This month some news broke about identification of the Battle of the Granicus site, stating in particular: "Professor Reyhan Korpe, a historian from Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (ÇOMÜ) and Scientific Advisor to the “Alexander the Great Cultural Route” project, led the team that uncovered the battlefield". However, per Battle of the Granicus#Location it seems that the exact site has been known since at least Hammond's 1980 article. Am I reading the news correctly that what Korpe's team actually did was mapping Alexander’s journey to the Granicus rather than identifying the battle site per se? Per news, "Starting from Özbek village, Alexander’s army moved through Umurbey and Lapseki before descending into the Biga Plain". Brandmeistertalk 23:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If Körpe and his team wrote a paper about their discovery, I haven't found it, so I can only go by news articles reporting on their findings. Apparently, Körpe gave a presentation at the Çanakkale Provincial Directorate of Culture and Tourism for an audience of local mayors and district governors,[12] and I think the news reports reflect what he said there. Obviously, the presentation was in Turkish. Turkish news sources, based on an item provided by DHA, quote him as saying, "Bölgede yaptığımız araştırmalarda antik kaynakları da çok dikkatli okuyarak, yorumlayarak savaşın aşağı yukarı tam olarak nerede olduğunu, hangi köyler arasında olduğunu, ovanın tam olarak neresinde olduğunu bulduk." [My underlining] Google Translate turns this into, "During our research in the region, by reading and interpreting ancient sources very carefully, we found out more or less exactly where the war took place, which villages it took place between, and where exactly on the plain it took place." I cannot reconcile "more or less" with "exactly".
The news reports do not reveal the location identified by Körpe, who is certainly aware of Hammond's theory, since he cited the latter's 1980 article in earlier publications. One possibility is that the claim will turn out to have been able to confirm Hammond's theory definitively. Another possibility is that the location they identified is not "more or less exactly" the same as that of Hammond's theory.  --Lambiam 02:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

January 1

[edit]

Has there ever been an incident of a serial killer murdering another serial killer?

[edit]

Question as topic. Has this ever happened outside of the movies? 146.90.140.99 (talk) 05:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting question. Just because you can't find any incident, doesn't mean this kind of case never happened (type II error). Stanleykswong (talk) 09:57, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently yes: Dean Corll was killed by one of his his accomplices, Elmer Wayne Henley. --Antiquary (talk) 12:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it would be more notable if the two were not connected to each other. --142.112.149.206 (talk) 08:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you're including underworld figures, this happens not infrequently. As an Aussie, a case that springs to mind was Andrew Veniamin murdering Victor Pierce. Both underworld serial murderers. I'm sure there are many similar cases in organised crime. Eliyohub (talk) 08:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't hired killers distinct from the usual concept of a serial killer? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Outside the movies? Sure, on TV. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Dexter character from the multiple Dexter series is based on Pedro Rodrigues Filho, who killed criminals, including murderers. It is necessary to decide how many merders each of those murders did in order to decide if you would want to classify them as serial killers or just general murderers. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like the Death Wish (1974 film) film series might have also drawn inspiration from Filho. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots03:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another serial killer question

[edit]

about 20 years ago, I saw a documentary where it was said that the majority of serial killers kill for sexual gratification, or for some sort of revenge against their upbringing, or because in their head that God (or someone else) told them to kill. But the FBI agent on the documentary said something about how their worst nightmare was an extremely intelligent, methodical killer who was doing what he did to make some sort of grand statement about society/political statement. That this sort of killer was one step ahead of law enforcement and knew all of their methods. Like a Hannibal Lecter type individual. He said that he could count on the fingers of one hand the sort of person who he was talking about, but that these killers were the most difficult of all to catch and by far the most dangerous. Can you tell me any examples of these killers? 146.90.140.99 (talk) 05:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ted Kaczynski ("the Unabomber") comes to mind. --142.112.149.206 (talk) 07:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. Ted the Unabomber only got finally caught by chance, only after his brother happened to recognise him. Eliyohub (talk) 08:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
More than a few killed for money; Michael Swango apparently just for joy. The case of Leopold and Loeb comes to mind, who hoped to demonstrate superior intellect; if they had not bungled their first killing despite spending seven months planning everything, more would surely have followed.  --Lambiam 15:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Joseph Paul Franklin. Prezbo (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Missing fire of London

[edit]

British Movietone News covered the burning down of the Crystal Palace in this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but apparently factual, film. At 00:15 it refers to 'the biggest London blaze since 1892'. What happened in 1892 that could be considered comparable to the Palace's demise, or at least sufficiently well-known to be referred to without further explanation?

I can see nothing in History of London, List of town and city fires, List of fires or 1892. The London Fire Journal records "May 8, 1892 - Scott's Oyster Bar, Coventry Street. 4 dead.", but also lists later fires with larger death tolls. Does anyone have access to the Journal of the Royal Statistical Society's article Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892? -- Verbarson  talkedits 13:48, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see the Great Fire of 1892 destroyed half the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. But comparing that to the Crystal Palace fire, which destroyed only the Crystal Palace, is an odd choice.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It would also be odd to call it a "London blaze".  --Lambiam 15:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The closest I found was the 1861 Tooley Street fire. Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also a large fire at Wood Street in the City in 1882 (perhaps later mistaken for 1892?). [13] Alansplodge (talk) 16:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I too wonder whether the Movietone newsreader was the victim of a typo. In December 1897 Cripplegate suffered "the greatest fire...that has occurred in the City since the Great Fire of 1666". [14]. --Antiquary (talk) 11:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC) That's also mentioned, I now see, in Verbarson's London Fire Journal link. --Antiquary (talk) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Verbarson: Fires in London and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in 1892 is available on JSTOR as part of the Wikipedia Library. It doesn't give details of any individual fires. DuncanHill (talk) 16:51, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@DuncanHill:, so it is. The DOI link in that article is broken; I should have been more persistent with the JSTOR search. Thank you. -- Verbarson  talkedits 17:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Unexpectedly, from the Portland Guardian (that's Portland, Victoria): GREAT FIRE IN LIONDON. A great fire is raging in the heart of the London ducks. Dated 26 November 1892.  Card Zero  (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the poor ducks.  --Lambiam 12:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The whole OCR transcript of that blurred newspaper column is hilarious. "The fames have obtained a firm bold", indeed! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 12:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Setting aside the unsung history of the passionate ducks of London, what I see in that clipping is:
  • 1892 - Australia is still a colony (18+ years to go)
  • which is linked to the UK by (i) long-distance shipping, and (ii) telegraph cables
  • because of (i), the London docks are economically important
  • because of (ii), they get daily updates from London
Therefore, the state of the London docks (and the possible fate of the Australian ships there) is of greater importance to Australian merchants than it is to most Londoners. So headlines in Portland may not reflect the lesser priority of that news in the UK? -- Verbarson  talkedits 17:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was highly impressed by the rapidity of the Victorian Victorian telegraph system there. But my money's on Antiquary's theory, above - I think the newsreel announcer's script had 1892 as a typo for 1897.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Which I have finally found (in WP) at Timeline of London (19th century)#1890 to 1899 (using the same cite as Antiquary). It does look persuasively big ("The Greatest Fire of Modern Times" - Star), though there were no fatalities. Despite that, an inquest was held. It sounds much more likely than the docks fire to have been memorable in 1936. -- Verbarson  talkedits 19:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]


January 4

[edit]

Could the Sack of Jericho be almost

[edit]

historical in the sense that the story of what happened, happened to a different city but was transferred to Jericho?Rich (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It might be. But then again, it might not be. Following whatever links there are to the subject within the article might be a good start for finding out about whatever theories there might be. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots07:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To believe that the events in the story are historical, whether for Jericho or another city, amounts to believing in a miracle. Barring miracles, no amount of horn-blowing and shouting can bring defensive walls down.
Jericho was destroyed in the 16th century BCE. The first version of the Book of Joshua was written in the late 7th century BCE, so there are 9 centuries between the destruction and the recording of the story. An orally transmitted account, passed on through some thirty generations, might have undergone considerable changes, turning a conquest with conventional war practices, possibly with sound effects meant to install fear in the besieged, into a miraculous event.  --Lambiam 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
[Edit Conflicts] The sack was described in the Book of Joshua, which however was likely compiled around 640–540 BCE, some six or seven centuries after the supposed Hebrew conquest of Canaan. Some scholars now discount the whole Exodus and Conquest narrative as political lobbying written by Jewish exiles in Babylonia (which the Persians later took over) hoping to be given control over the former territory of Israel as well as being restored to their native Judah.
The narrative logically explains why a people once 'Egyptian slaves' (like all subjects of the Pharoah) were later free in Canaan, but by then it was likely forgotten that Egypt once controlled almost the entirety of Canaan, from which it withdrew in the Late Bronze Age Collapse. The Hebrew peoples of the (always separate) states of Israel and Judah emerged from Canaanite culture in situ, though minor folk movements (for example, of the Tribe of Levi, who often had Egyptian names) may have had a role. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 10:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I heard the sack of Jericho in book of Joshua was an explanatory myth, not some kind of Exile claim to ownership, which is more logical anyway. If there were a more recent city that was sacked, it would be less than the estimate of 30 geneations of remembrance. I did forget to stress that when I asked if the story could be almost historical that I wasn't suggesting that Jericho's walls were supernaturally destroyed by trumpets. After all, the actual method of conquest in the story could be the connivance of the traitor Rahab.Rich (talk) 02:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, certainly the myth likely existed before it was consolidated with others into the written documents, just as stories about the mythical Danel may have been adapted into the fictional Daniel of the supposedly contemporary Book of Daniel describing his exploits in the 6th century BCE court of Nebuchadnezzar II, although scholars generally agree that this was actually written in the period 167–163 BCE. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.84.253 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Israelites partly emerged in situ (though there was also a definite nomad/pastoralist component), especially along the West Bank hill-chain (running in an approximate north-south direction) where the Four-room house took hold among the rural inhabitants there. They were not originally city-dwellers, and their culture could not have been consolidated until the power of the Canaanite cities in that area had declined, and it's not too hard to believe that they sometimes moved against what cities remained, so that part of the conquest narrative is not necessarily a pure myth. Jericho was in the valley (not along the hill-chain), so was not part of the core settled rural agricultural four-room house area, but was inhabited more by pastoralists/animal-herders who became affiliated... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility, for URLs in text document

[edit]

We've been asked to increase the accessibility of all documents we produce, esp. syllabi. I use WordPerfect, where I don't seem to be able to have a URL with a descriptive text in the way Word allows. 508 is the operative term. I'm trying this out: "Princeton University has some handy tips on what is called “active reading, on this webpage: https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/active-reading-strategies." In other words, descriptive text followed by a bare URL. Is that good for screen readers? Graham87, how does this look/sound to you? Thanks for your help, Drmies (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: I wouldn't make a general rule about that as it's context-dependent ... depending on how many URL's are in a document, reading them might get annoying. In general I'd prefer to read a link with descriptive text rather than a raw URL, because the latter aren't always very human-readable ... but I don't think this is really an accessibility issue; just do what would make sense for a sighted reader here. Graham87 (talk) 00:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Graham87, thanks. There's only one or two in a ten-page document. According to our bosses, this is an accessibility issue--but it seems to me as if someone sounded an alarm and now everyone who doesn't actually know much about the issue is telling us to comply with a set of directives which they haven't given us. Instead, we are directed to some self-help course that involves only Word. It's fun. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Stop using WordPerfect and start using Word. --Viennese Waltz 07:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why, but it seems many legal professionals prefer WordPerfect. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Viennese Waltz, thanks so much for that helpful suggestion. Drmies (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You can create a hyperlink to a file using WordPerfect. First, you select text or a graphic you want to create a hyperlink. Then you click “Tools”, select “Hyperlink” and then type a path or document you want to link to. Stanleykswong (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Stanleykswong, that sounds like it might work: thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Do web browsers display WordPerfect documents? I don't think I have a WordPerfect viewing app installed on my platform (macOS). Does anyone have a URL of a WordPerfect document handy?  --Lambiam 14:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
User:Lambiam, WP translates easily to PDF and to Word. I use PDFs in my LMS. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You can see why WordPerfect is popular in legal circles at WordPerfect#Key characteristics (fourth bullet point) and WordPerfect#Faithful customers. 2A00:23A8:1:D801:8C31:BAC2:88CF:A92B (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have the feeling this answers my question. Would I have to find and install an app that translates .wpd documents to .pdf or .doc documents? Would I then be able to tell my browser to use this app? The question is informative, not meant to bash a product that I have zero familiarity with.  --Lambiam 17:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've opened early WordPerfect (WP 5.1) documents using both Word and Firefox without any need for a third party translator. The only trick was changing the file extension to .WPD so that my computer could create the file association more easily. In the old days, file extensions were not so rigorously restrictive and many files ended up with extensions like .01 or .v4 or whatever. Matt Deres (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot check if it would work for me, for lack of access to any WordPerfect document of any age.  --Lambiam 21:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a bunch of them, in the DOJ archives.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, finally an answer. When I click on a .wpd link, the file is downloaded. I can then open and view it with LibreOffice. (I can also open it with OpenOffice, but then I get to see garbage like ╖#<m\r╛∞¼_4YÖ¤ⁿVíüd╤?Y.)  --Lambiam 14:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, web browsers do display WordPerfect documents. If you google “wpd online viewer”, you will find a lot of them. Stanleykswong (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
When I google [“wpd online viewer”], I get two hits, one to this page and one to a site where you can upload a WPD document in order to be able to view it online. What happens when you view an html page with something like <a href="file:///my-document.wpd">Looky here!</a> embedded?  --Lambiam 13:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right. Only Docx2doc (https://www.docx2doc.com/convert) and Jumpshare provide online viewers now. However, there are still other offline alternative, such as Cisdem (https://www.cisdem.com/document-reader-mac.html) and Apache. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Some other text editors, such as TextMaker, can open and view WPD files. However, after editing, the WPD files can only be saved as other formats, such as docx or doc. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing that just came up--we got rapped on the fingers though the mandatory "training" didn't touch on it. We've been told that hyphens are bad. The internet tells me that screenreaders have trouble with hyphenated words, but does this apply also to date ranges? Graham87, does yours get this right, "Spring Break: 17-21 March"? For now I'm going with "Spring Break, 17 to 21 March", but it just doesn't look good to my traditional eyes. And on top of that I have to use sans serif fonts... Drmies (talk) 17:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • To give another example, I have to redo this: "Final grades are computed along the following scale: A: 90-100; B+: 87-89; B: 80-86; C+: 77-79; C: 70-76; D+: 67-69; D: 60-66; F: Below 60." Drmies (talk) 17:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

January 5

[edit]

How to search for awkwardly named topics

[edit]

On and off I've been looking for good sources for the concepts of general union and trade union federation so as to improve the articles, but every time I try I only get one or two somewhat helpful results. Many of the results are not of material about the concepts of general union or trade union federations, but often about a specific instance of them, and as a result hard to gleen a lot from about the broader concept. Typcially this is because of issues such as many general unions being named as such (for example Transport & General Workers' Union). I'm aware of the search trick that'd be something like "general union" -Transport & General Workers' Union but I've found it largely cumbersome and ineffective, often seeming to filter out any potential material all together

Thought I'd ask because I'd like to improve those articles, and this is an issue I'm sure would come up again for me otherwise on other articles Bejakyo (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do any of the articles listed at Unionism help? Blueboar (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you search for ["a trade union federation" -"is a trade union federation"], most hits will not be about a specific instance.  --Lambiam 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

January 6

[edit]

What does the Thawabit consist of?

[edit]

I asked about this at the article talk page and WikiProject Palestine, no response. Maybe it's not a question Wikipedia can answer, but I'm curious and it would improve the article. Prezbo (talk) 09:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's acronym (or an abbreviation) for the four principles enumerated in the article. Like how the Bill of Rights is the first ten amendments to the US Constitution. Abductive (reasoning) 13:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thawabit is short for alThawabit alWataniat alFilastinia, the "Palestinian National Constants". Thawabit is the plural of thabit, "something permanent or invariable; constant".  --Lambiam 13:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the article is correct. The sourcing is thin, reference are paywalled, offline, or dead, and Google isn't helpful. Other scholarly and activist sources give different versions of the Thawabet, e.g.This one adds the release of Palestinian prisoners, this one adds that Palestine is indivisible. The article says that these principles were formulated by the PLO in 1977 but doesn't link to a primary source (like the Bill of Rights). I don't know if you're a subject matter expert here, I'm not--actually trying to figure this out. Prezbo (talk) 13:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I was able to access the paywalled articles through the Wikipedia library, which adds a little more clarity. Prezbo (talk) 10:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
According to this source, a fifth principle was added in 2012: "the objection to recognize the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people". However, I cannot find this in the cited source  --Lambiam 13:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the Arabic Wikipedia article before I responded above, and they list the same four principles. Abductive (reasoning) 13:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That appears to be a translation of the English article, so this doesn't mean much to me. Prezbo (talk) 13:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've poked around a little, and there doesn't appear to have been any change. Abductive (reasoning) 13:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The list in the book I linked to above is not the same as that in our article. The book does not include a "right to resistance", but demands the release by Israel of all Palestinian prisoners. It would be good to have a sourced, authoritative version, in particular the actual 1977 formulation by the PLO. Of course, nothing is so changeable as political principles, so one should expect non-trivial amendments made in the course of time.  --Lambiam 14:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That book is incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 21:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know?  --Lambiam 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The text does not explicitly say, "among others", but the use of بها بما في ذلك suggests that this list of four principles is not exhaustive.  --Lambiam 00:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

January 7

[edit]

Is there such a thing as a joke type index?

[edit]

Has anyone produced an index of joke types and schemata (schemes?) along the lines of the Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index for folk tales? More generally what kind of studies of the structure of jokes and humor are available? Has anyone come up with an A.I. that can generate new jokes? 178.51.8.23 (talk) 18:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For starters, there's Index of joke types. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
AI generated jokes have been around for years. Just Google for it. They range from weird to meh. Shantavira|feed me 10:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Gershon Legman made an attempt of sorts in his two joke collections, but it was kind of a half-assed approach: there are a bunch of indices printed on pages, but no key tying them together per se. His interest was in the core of the subject of the joke, so he might have said, for example, that these jokes were all based on unresolved Oedipal drives while those jokes were based on hatred of the mother (he was a capital "F" Freudian). The link Bugs shared is more about the formats of the jokes themselves, though some are also differentiated by their subject (albeit in a more superficial way than Legman attempted). Matt Deres (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Arthur Koestler has attempted to develop a theory of humour (as well as art and discovery), first in Insight and Outlook (1949) and slightly elaborated further in The Act of Creation (1964). He did, however, not develop a typology of jokes. IMO Victor Raskin's script-based semantic theory of humor presented in Semantic Mechanisms of Humor (1985) is essentially the same as Koestler's, but Raskin does not reference Koestler in the book. For an extensive overview of theories of humour see Contemporary Linguistic Theories of Humour.  --Lambiam 00:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

January 8

[edit]

The Nest magazine, UK, 1920s

[edit]

I have a copy of The Grocer's Window Book. London: The Nest Magazine. 1922., "arranged by The Editor of The Nest". The address of The Nest Magazine is given as 15 Arthur Street, London, EC4. It contains suggestions for arranging window displays in an attractive manner to attract customers into independent grocer's shops. I would be interested to know more about The Nest. I suspect it may have something to do with Nestles Milk, as 1) the back cover is a full-page advertisement for Nestles and Ideal Milk, and there are several other adverts for Nestles products in the book, and 2) one of the suggested window displays involves spelling out "IDEAL" with tins of Ideal Milk. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Historical U.S. population data by age (year 1968)

[edit]

In the year 1968, what percentage of the United States population was under 25 years old? I am wondering about this because I am watching the movie Wild in the Streets, and want to know if a percentage claimed in the film was pulled out of a hat or was based in fact. 2601:18A:C500:E830:CE4:140C:29E5:594F (talk) 04:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What percentage did they give? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots05:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
52% (it's on the movie poster).  Card Zero  (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Tabel No. 6 in the 1971 US Census Report (p. 8) gives, for 1960, 80093 Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of 180007 Kpeople, corresponding to 44.5%, and, for 1970, 94095 Kpeople age 0–24 on a total population of 204265 Kpeople, corresponding to 46.1%. Interpolation results in an estimate of 45.8% for 1968.  --Lambiam 12:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Countries with greatest land mass

[edit]

Can someone please fill in these blanks? Thank you.

1. Currently, the USA ranks as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

2. If the USA were to "annex" or "acquire" both Canada and Greenland, the USA would rank as number _____ among countries with the greatest land mass.

Thanks. 32.209.69.24 (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See List of countries and dependencies by area, which gives a nuanced answer to your first question, and the answer to your second question is obvious from the data in the article.-Gadfium (talk) 05:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

January 9

[edit]