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== Question about categorization ==
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I posted a long comment at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Guidelines#Deceased_LGBT_.28.3F.29_people]] and it said to cross post it here. I hope to get some guidance about placing historical figures in LGBT categories. [[User:Newjerseyliz|Newjerseyliz]] ([[User talk:Newjerseyliz|talk]]) 21:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
{{old move|date=6 September 2024|from=Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies|destination=Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ Studies|result=moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies|link=Special:Permalink/1248705219#Requested move 6 September 2024}}

{{Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies/to do}}
== Mass deletion of categories - Repairing ==
{{Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies/ReportBar}}

It's just been found that a number of categories in use by this project were created by a sockpuppet of a blocked user, so [[User:Ronhjones]] has had to delete them. However, it looks like a number of them were very useful, so one may want to look through these deletions and re-create/re-categorize. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 20:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

:I really don't understand why he ''had'' to delete them; it's not mandatory that banned users' edits ''must'' be deleted if they're beneficial to the encyclopedia. It's also ''really'' annoying that he just removed the categories from articles without upmerging them into the categories that remain.
:Anyway, the categories that he deleted are:

*[[:Category:Gay history]] - apparently only contained two items, both are already in appropriate parent categories. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]])
*[[:Category:Gay life peers]] - <s>recreating: we have [[:Category:Lesbian life peers]] and [[:Category:Bisexual life peers]].</s> Never mind; those were also created by the sock. Upmerging to [[:Category:LGBT life peers]] for now. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]])
*[[:Category:Gay male beauty pageants]]
*[[:Category:Gay-related television programs]]
*[[:Category:Gay feminists]]
*[[:Category:Gay men's organisations in the United Kingdom]] - added articles to [[:Category:LGBT organisations in the United Kingdom]]
*[[:Category:Gay men's organizations in the United States]] - added articles to [[:Category:LGBT organizations in the United States]]
*[[:Category:Gay military personnel]]
*[[:Category:Gay nightclubs]]
*[[:Category:Gay nightclubs in Canada]]
*[[:Category:Gay nightclubs in England]]
*[[:Category:Gay nightclubs in London]]
*[[:Category:Gay nightclubs in the United States]]
*[[:Category:Gay non-fiction books]]
*[[:Category:Gay pornographic film actors by nationality]]
*[[:Category:Gay public houses in London]]
*[[:Category:Gay slang]] - added articles to [[:Category:LGBT slang]] - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]])
*[[:Category:Gay sports]] - articles are appropriately categorized under [[:Category:LGBT sports]] - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]])
*Gay villages categories:
**[[:Category:Gay villages by country]]
**[[:Category:Gay villages in Argentina]]
**[[:Category:Gay villages in Brazil]]
**[[:Category:Gay villages in England]]
**[[:Category:Gay villages in Mexico]]
**[[:Category:Gay villages in South Africa]]
**[[:Category:Gay villages in the Netherlands]]
**I'm going to recreate these. [[:Category:Gay villages]] is quite naturally divided by country. I'm not going to recreate [[:Category:Gay villages by country]] since it just seems like an unneeded extra layer of indirection. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]])
*[[:Category:German actors in gay pornographic films]]
*[[:Category:German gay pornographic film actors]]
*[[:Category:Actors in gay pornographic films by nationality]]
*[[:Category:American actors in gay pornographic films]]
*[[:Category:American gay men's magazines]]
*[[:Category:American gay pornographic film actors]]
*[[:Category:American lesbian-related magazines]] (CSD tagged but not deleted yet)
*[[:Category:American male escorts]]
*[[:Category:American necrophiles]] (not related to us, but part of the same sweep) - added to [[:Category:Necrophiles]], since the whole necrophiles-by-country tree was created by the sock. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]])

:I'm not suggesting all these categories should be automatically recreated, but some of them definitely need to exist. Please feel free to annotate the list above with comments and ideas on specific categories. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]]) 22:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

::The deletions have caused a heck of a mess. I've checked several, and no articles have been put back into the category they were originally in before the sock came along. I can understand wanting to have a strict policy against socking, but we've cut off our nose to spite our face here.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 22:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

:::And there's a whole lot more awaiting imminent deletion at [[:Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users]]. I've mentioned on [[User talk:Nymf]] (he's the one who did the nominating) about this problem of the categories getting deleted without appropriate recategorization. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]]) 23:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

::::Several of these categories have been used by users other than sock, which would disqualify them from G5 speedy deletion. Given the very short time in which the entire batch was nominated, I do not think any checking was done regarding who has been using these categories; everything created by the sock has been put on the chopping block regardless of what use has been made of it in the last 10 months.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 00:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Is it considered proper to remove the CSD (and take responsibility for the category in whatever ceremonial form is called for)? I mean, another one is [[:Category:Jewish American actors]], it's huge! Obviously one should not sockpuppet, but re-creating and repopulating all of these will be a huge time sink for productive users too. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 00:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

::::::I nominated all of those categories in a go as the user was just caught socking, yet again, and I had enough of it. I was going to nominate them for deletion 10 months ago, but never had the energy then. These things needs to be dealt with vehemently, but as they haven't been for over 2 years, the user knows that he can return to socking and get away with it.

::::::My 2 cents is that you should re-categorize rather than re-create, for the benefit of the Wikipedia project itself. [[User:Nymf|Nymf]] ([[User talk:Nymf|talk]]) 19:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::No, that's a poor decision. It is the behavior of socking that is the problem, not the fact of categorizing Jewish American actors together or subdividing gay villages by country. Allowing them not to be deleted, if claimed by legitimate users, is the best solution - recreating and repopulating is extremely tedious, but still results in proper categorization - putting a black mark on these categories forever is foolish. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 20:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I concur. Not all categorization is bad. It would have been better to nominate them for deletion or merging at CFD and let those there decide if they were worth keeping.--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 21:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::By not deleting the categories, we legitimize the behavior of the sock puppets. That is ''very'' bad, and lets the user know that he can get away with it, as long as he is adamant. Point in case: the user is already back, blanking templates for the categories to stay. [[User:Nymf|Nymf]] ([[User talk:Nymf|talk]]) 21:54, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::But the reason socking is bad is because it's damaging to the encyclopedia and to the process of building an encyclopedia. Blocking socks is a means to an end, not an end in itself - by prioritizing this sockpuppet over good categorization practice, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 23:20, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::If a sock's work can be cleanly and promptly excised, I'm all for it. But these categories have been around for nearly a year, and have been reviewed and used by other users. I think we are well past the point of pulling these particular threads out of the cloth.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 22:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

:The scorched earth anti-sock policy continues, including the loss of [[:Category:LGBT parenting]] and many others. [[User:Diannaa]] has deleted several, again with no upmerging or replacing the categories that were there before the sock came along. I have no idea what, if any, tools are available to make tracking and reverting this kind of widespread, reckless, and destructive editing feasible.
:To the extent that this teaches the sock a lesson, it's that they can cause an amazing amount of chaos and widespread decategorization, as we are now in a much worse position category-wise than we were before the sock ever came along.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 18:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

::What the fuck is all this. It's hard enough keeping homophobic editors from removing clear-cut historical LGBTs (and even living, out LGBTs) from appropriate categories - the sheer amount of work that needs to be done to undo this catastrophic decision hurts my head to contemplate.[[User:Zythe|Zythe]] ([[User talk:Zythe|talk]]) 21:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I noticed [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Brittany_CoxXx&diff=567084780&oldid=567066962 this edit] by Bearcat which appears to be cleanup of some of this mess, and I noticed he had done dozens of similar edits - thank you, [[user:Bearcat|Bearcat]], your work was noticed and appreciated. :) Maybe you could advise us on the mess described in this thread? [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 21:49, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
:::: Sorry, this is my fault. I assumed that because the nominations were done by a trusted long-term user that the deletions should proceed. I will help with the clean-up. I will start by re-creating [[:Category:Fictional bisexual females]] and restoring its contents using information from my deletion logs and contribs. -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:05, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
:::: <s>Next I will do [[:Category:LGBT entertainers from the United States]]</s> -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC) Actually, Bearcat has dealt with that group by placing them in [[:Category:LGBT people from the United States]]. So I think i had better wait for instructions as to what you want me to do next. -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I did catch as much as I could of what happened yesterday, but unfortunately I'm not able to guarantee that I caught ''everything''. For what it's worth, although I've also directly deleted some of Rafiki's categories in the past, I do typically make sure to upmerge the entries back into a parent category before deleting the category — but I do recognize that my status as an administrator does enable me to do that in a way that a regular editor might not have access to.

It's not necessarily a requirement to recreate every deleted category wholesale, however — part of what got Rafiki banned in the first place was that he had a persistent habit of splitting any and all "LGBT" categories he came across into four separate quadrant-specific gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender subcategories, without regard to whether that was warranted or not. So some of the categories listed above do not need to be recreated; however, whenever possible the articles that were in those categories should be refiled in common "LGBT" categories ''instead'' of recreating quadrant-specific ones. And as noted, I did try to catch as many former "LGBT entertainers from the United States" as I could, and refiled them back into the existing {{cl|LGBT people from the United States}} (where they were before the entertainer-specific subcategory was created) instead of recreating the deleted category, if they weren't already in another subcategory such as {{cl|LGBT African Americans}} or {{cl|LGBT writers from the United States}}. I can't guarantee that I caught ''everybody'', however, although I can't think off the top of my head of any ''obvious'' people that I missed. I see, however, that the category has since been recreated — and accordingly, the people ''can'' be moved back into it again.

One thing it's important to keep in mind is that even banned users who created a lot of bad stuff can still occasionally hit on something valid and useful anyway, and it also doesn't mean that the category becomes permanently banned from ever being recreated again even by an editor in good standing. I would suggest that as much as possible, regular editors should list ''categories'' created by banned users for CFD rather than speedy, precisely so that we can prevent things like this from happening — because editors should have the option of being able to say "actually this category is useful enough that we should keep it anyway" and/or "make sure that the closure involves upmerging the articles to this parent category rather than just decatting them". Or alternatively, if it's important to strip the banned user from the edit history, one could delete the category and then recreate it under their own name so that it has a valid user behind it instead.

To be perfectly frank, this was a ''major'' f*ck*p that should not have happened in the way that it did. I do recognize that the practice of deleting a banned user's contributions comes from a place of rational ''intentions'' — however, we all have to make every effort to ensure that we don't accidentally create another massive problem in the process as happened here. Although I'm relieved that there is an effort underway to fix it, we need to make absolutely sure that '''nothing like this ever happens again'''. I'm not going to blame any specific user, as both Nymf and Diannaa quite clearly acted in good faith according to the rules — but if two good faith actions combine into a massive disaster like this, there's clearly a flaw of some kind in the process. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 05:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
: Thanks so much for your help cleaning up, Bearcat. I can guarantee that I personally will not do anything like this ever again. I am very sorry to have caused so much trouble. -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]])
::I made a bold edit here per Bearcat, your thoughts welcome. [[Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Edits_by_and_on_behalf_of_banned_editors]]. --[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 15:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
:::"Should" essentially becomes a loophole for socks to go wild creating categories, since the process of bringing something to CFD can be quite tedious. Perhaps the wording could be changed to "consider"? I recognize the problem with G5:ing some of these categories, but as a whole this is a rather unique case, as 99% of the blocked socks are not as adamant and long-winded as RafikiSykes. [[User:Nymf|Nymf]] ([[User talk:Nymf|talk]]) 18:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I'll agree with Nymf here — there are indeed going to be cases where it's appropriate to be cautious and take it to CFD for the reasons that showed up here, but even so there are still going to be some other cases where the category is just a no-brainer delete that isn't going to cause actual problems. So it would indeed be better to word that as a possibility to consider rather than as an absolute rule with no exceptions. Obviously useless categories (e.g. {{cl|Redheaded people with extra toes and a mole on their cheek}}) can still be speedied without needing special treatment, and ones that have an explicit consensus against them (e.g. Rafiki's persistent filtering of common LGBT categories into quadrant-specific subcategories) should still be speedied as long as the articles are reupped to a parent — there are certainly circumstances where CFD ''should'' be preferred over speedy, but that doesn't have to be the default option in ''every'' case. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 18:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::I'm not well versed on the quadrant-ization (or lack thereof) standards here. Perhaps you could write up a LGBT-categories guidance esp the rules around quadrants and place it at [[WP:EGRS]]? In any case, per the language wording, can we move that policy discussion here: [[Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy#Proposed_changes_re:_category_deletion_of_banned_users]]. FWIW, I would be ok with softening the language to give examples of things that should be speedied, vs things that need proper merging and/or discussion. --[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 19:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I have actually done so in the past, for the record, but within days another user removed it again on the basis that they didn't personally agree with the consensus position, and then proceeded to attack me as a "bad faith" editor for the next several weeks in every single CFD discussion where we crossed paths whether it had anything to do with the EGRS guideline or not — so while I'd certainly ''like'' to readd it, I'm not willing to do so without backup. At any rate, the actual consensus is that quadrantization is only allowed in a few specific cases (writers, politicians, musicians, actors) where common "LGBT" categories would be populated in the ''thousands'', but not in cases where a common "LGBT" category still only has one or two pages' worth of entries — and that in any case where it doesn't already exist, it cannot be implemented without explicitly seeking a consensus at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT]] to allow that specific new situation. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 20:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Let's start a new discussion over there on language to be added. I would support more or less what you outline above.--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 20:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
*Is the list above a complete list of the categories that were deleted? Let's make sure that we know exactly what has to be fixed. (Personally, this issue came to my notice when [[:Category:Gay non-fiction books]] was removed from a page on my watchlist, and no upmerge has yet happened; likewise [[:Category:LGBT parenting]].) –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 19:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
**Relatedly, have all the users who were involved in decategorizing commented here? If we can look through their contributions, we can find out which articles were decategorized so that we can restore them with a minimum of toil. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] &sdot; [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 19:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
*** I can't say for sure who worked on it. It might be best to post at WP:AN and/or WP:ANI to see if there was anyone else. In addition to myself, [[User:Ronhjones]] did some for sure. He deleted quite a few, and some of them were done as early as July 2. Checking his deletion logs, I found he deleted the following 65 categories: -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

===Ronhjones===
{{collapse top}}
* 23:31, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay life peers]]
* 21:36, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American necrophiles]]{{y}} eleven articles; transferred to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 21:34, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American male escorts]]
* 21:30, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American male erotic dancers]]
* 21:12, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American gay pornographic film actors]]
* 21:08, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American gay men's magazines]]
* 21:06, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American actors in gay pornographic films]]
* 20:57, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Actors in gay pornographic films by nationality]]
* 20:55, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:German gay pornographic film actors]]
* 20:55, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:German actors in gay pornographic films]]
* 20:53, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:German Actors in gay pornographic films]]
* 20:53, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in the Netherlands]]
* 20:52, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in South Africa]]
* 20:51, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in Mexico]]
* 20:51, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in England]]
* 20:49, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in Colombia]]
* 20:48, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in Brazil]]
* 20:47, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages in Argentina]]
* 20:46, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay villages by country]]
* 20:40, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay sports]]
* 20:39, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay slang]]
* 20:36, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay public houses in London]]
* 20:35, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay public houses]]
* 20:35, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay pornographic film actors by nationality]]
* 20:33, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay non-fiction books]]
* 20:31, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay nightclubs in the United States]]
* 20:30, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay nightclubs in London]]
* 20:28, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay nightclubs in England]]
* 20:27, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay nightclubs in Canada]]
* 20:26, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay nightclubs]]
* 20:25, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay military personnel]]
* 20:23, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay men's organizations in the United States]]
* 20:21, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay men's organisations in the United Kingdom]]
* 20:19, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay feminists]]
* 20:17, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay-related television programs]]
* 19:00, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay male beauty pageants]]
* 18:57, August 1, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay history]]
* 21:29, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Worlds Apart (boyband)]]
* 21:29, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Transgender-related websites]]
* 21:29, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Transgender in fiction]]
* 21:29, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Transgender and transsexual male prostitutes]]
* 21:29, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:The Wanted]]
* 21:29, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Robson & Jerome]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Raising Hope characters]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Raising Hope]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Queer musicians]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Queer entertainers]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Liberace]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:LGBT journalists from England]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Josh Groban]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Songs written by Josh Groban]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Josh Groban live albums]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Josh Groban compilation albums]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay-related websites]]
* 21:28, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay trans men in fiction]]
* 21:27, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay online social networking]]
* 21:27, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay online dating]]
* 21:27, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Gay erotica and pornography websites]]
* 21:27, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Films based on The Wizard of Oz]]
* 21:27, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Fictional male pornographic film actors]]
* 21:26, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Cody Simpson]]
* 21:26, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Altered Images albums]]
* 21:26, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Altered Images album covers]]
* 21:26, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:Altered Images]]
* 21:26, July 2, 2013 Ronhjones deleted page [[:Category:American transgender-related films]]
{{collapse bottom}}
I worked on it only in August. I first depopulated the category and then deleted the category. So in my case, matching up the preceding contribs to the matching log entry will reveal what the contents of each category was at the time of deletion. A couple categories were empty when I arrived, and that's how I realised that another person was working on it simultaneously. Here's a list of the 94 that I did: -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 22:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
===Diannaa===
{{collapse top}}
* 16:28, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT parenting]]{{y}} useful category and its contents restored
* 16:26, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Necrophiles by nationality]]{{n}} not a useful category
* 16:25, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT organisations in England]]{{y}} A useful category; re-created and repopulated
* 16:24, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT military personnel by nationality]]{{n}} not a useful category
* 16:23, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Russian necrophiles]]{{y}} two articles; moved to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 16:21, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT Buddhist clergy]]{{y}} three articles; moved to [[:Category:LGBT clergy]]
* 16:20, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian organisations in the United Kingdom]]{{y}} five articles, moved to [[:Category:LGBT organisations in England]] and [[:Category:LGBT organisations in the United Kingdom]]
* 16:19, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian military personnel]]{{y}} four articles; moved to [[:Category:LGBT military personnel]]
* 16:18, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Japanese necrophiles]]{{y}} five articles; moved to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 16:17, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Hong Kong necrophiles]]{{y}} two articles, moved to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 16:16, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:German necrophiles]]{{y}} two articles, moved to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 16:15, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay dance]]{{y}} six articles, moved to [[:Category:LGBT dance]]
* 16:14, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture in the United Kingdom]]{{y}} four articles, moved to [[:Category:LGBT culture in the United Kingdom]]
* 16:05, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture]]{{n}} Contained 34 articles. Not a useful subdivision from [[:Category:LGBT culture]]; articles not already in that category have now added to it.
* 15:59, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:English pimps and madams]]{{y}} A useful category; re-created and re-populated
* 15:58, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:English LGBT-related magazines]]{{y}} a useful category; re-created and re-populated
* 15:57, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:English brothel owners]]{{y}} A useful category; re-created and re-populated
* 15:54, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British bisexuality-related magazines]]{{y}} Three articles; moved to [[:Category:British LGBT-related magazines]]
* 15:53, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British lesbian-related magazines]]{{y}} Two articles; rolled into [[:Category:British LGBT-related magazines]]
* 15:52, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British LGBT military personnel]]{{y}} Three articles; moved to [[:Category:LGBT military personnel]]
* 15:51, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Canadian actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} A useful cat, though small; re-created and repopulated
* 15:50, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Czech actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} A useful cat, though small; re-created and repopulated
* 15:48, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Dominican Republic actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} A useful cat, though small; re-created and repopulated
* 15:47, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT entertainers from Scotland]]{{y}} Useful and surprisingly large cat; re-created and repopulated
* 04:44, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT artists by nationality]]{{n}} not re-created
* 04:26, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian Hispanic and Latino American culture]]{{y}} One article; moved to [[:Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American culture]]
* 04:25, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Bisexual nobility]]{{y}} seven people, moved to [[:Category:LGBT nobility]]
* 04:23, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Bisexual peers]]{{y}} five people, moved to [[:Category:LGBT peers]]
* 04:21, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Bisexual military personnel]]{{y}} two articles, moved to [[:Category:LGBT military personnel]]
* 04:20, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Argentine LGBT-related television programs]]{{y}} re-created and re-populated (5 articles)
* 04:18, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian-related media in the United States]]{{y}} re-created and re-populated (7 articles)
* 04:16, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT organisations in Wales]]{{y}} one article; re-created and repopulated
* 04:15, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT artists from Wales]]{{y}} Articles added to [[:Category:LGBT artists from the United Kingdom‎]]
* 04:14, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT artists from Scotland]]{{y}} Articles added to [[:Category:LGBT artists from the United Kingdom‎]]
* 04:12, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT artists from England]]{{y}} Articles added to [[:Category:LGBT artists from the United Kingdom‎]]
* 04:11, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Queer feminists]]{{y}} Re-created and re-populated; this group appears to be distinct from LGBT
* 04:09, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Queer writers]]{{y}} Re-created and re-populated; this group appears to be distinct from LGBT
* 04:07, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT entertainers from the United States]]{{y}} Category has been re-created and repopulated
* 03:27, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT entertainers from Puerto Rico]]{{y}} Category has been re-created and repopulated
* 03:23, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture in the United States by city]]{{n}} not re-created
* 03:23, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania]]{{y}} Bearcat moved 4 articles to [[:Category:LGBT culture in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania]]
* 03:19, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture in New York City]]{{y}} 8 articles moved to [[:Category:LGBT culture in New York City]]
* 03:17, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:French actors in gay pornographic films]]{{n}} not re-created; Bearcat has re-categorised these
* 03:15, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture in Germany]]{{y}} 3 articles; moved to [[:Category:LGBT culture in Germany]]
* 03:12, August 4, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay (male) television]]{{n}} not re-created
* 22:43, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Fictional bisexual females]]{{y}} useful category and its contents restored
* 22:13, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender and transsexual female models]]{{y}} category re-created and repopulated
* 22:05, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender organisations in the United Kingdom]]{{y}} category re-created and repopulated
* 22:04, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender-related television programs]]{{y}} category re-created and repopulated
* 20:47, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transsexual adult models]]{{n}} not re-created
* 20:45, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian nobility]]{{y}} one article; moved to [[:Category:LGBT nobility]]
* 20:45, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian peers]]{{y}} one article; moved to [[:Category:LGBT life peers]]
* 20:44, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Lesbian life peers]]{{y}} one article; moved to [[:Category:LGBT life peers]]
* 20:34, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Czech gay pornographic film actors]]{{y}} Restored and repopulated
* 20:33, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Canadian gay pornographic film actors]]{{y}} Restored and repopulated
* 20:30, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} Restored and repopulated
* 20:29, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:English actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} Restored and repopulated
* 20:25, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT sportspeople from Slovakia]]{{y}} Restored and repopulated
* 20:24, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay (male) television channels]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 20:22, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Male escorts]]{{n}} not re-created
* 20:20, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender and transsexual prostitutes]]{{n}} not re-created
* 20:19, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Scottish LGBT military personnel]]{{y}} two articles; moved to [[:Category:LGBT military personnel]]
* 20:17, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British gay pornographic film actors]]{{n}} unneeded container category
* 20:17, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:English gay pornographic film actors]]{{y}} restored and repopulated
* 20:15, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British male escorts]]{{n}} not re-created
* 20:13, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:LGBT events in Northern Ireland]]{{y}} one article, moved to [[:Category:LGBT events in the United Kingdom]]
* 20:06, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:British necrophiles]]{{n}} this was an unneeded container category
* 20:01, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Bisexual life peers]]{{y}} One article; moved to [[:Category:LGBT life peers]]
* 19:55, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay (male) media by country]]{{n}} not re-created
* 19:55, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay (male) media in the United Kingdom]]{{y}} One article; moved to [[:Category:Gay (male) television channels]]
* 19:51, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Scottish necrophiles]]{{y}} One article, added to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 19:49, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay (male) media in the Czech Republic]]{{n}} Not re-created. One article, already adequately categorised
* 19:47, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender and transsexual female prostitutes]]{{n}} not recreated; one article, already adequately categorised
* 19:44, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:French gay pornographic film actors]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:42, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:French necrophiles]]{{y}} One article, added to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 19:41, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay (male) media in the United States]]{{n}} one article, already adequately categorised
* 19:39, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Italian male prostitutes]]{{y}} recreated and repopulated
* 19:37, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Italian actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:37, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Italian gay pornographic film actors]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:34, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Hungarian actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:34, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Hungarian male escorts]]{{n}} not recreated
* 19:32, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay bathhouses in Canada]]{{y}} re-created and re-populated (presently one article, but room for growth)
* 19:30, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Gay culture in England]]{{y}} one article, moved to [[:Category:LGBT culture in England]]
* 19:28, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender and transsexual male models]]{{n}} one person, already adequately categorised
* 19:26, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:South Korean LGBT-related television programs]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:25, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Taiwanese LGBT-related television programs]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:24, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Spanish necrophiles]]{{y}} one article, moved to [[:Category:Necrophiles]]
* 19:22, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Queer models]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:19, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Mexican actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:17, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Philippine LGBT-related television programs]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:15, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Transgender-related documentary films]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:06, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Venezuelan actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:01, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Welsh actors in gay pornographic films]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
* 19:01, August 3, 2013 Diannaa deleted page [[:Category:Welsh gay pornographic film actors]]{{y}} re-created and repopulated
{{collapse bottom}}

[[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]], thanks for your continued input and assistance. [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]], thanks for recognising and admitting a mistake and contributing to the clean up. On quadrantisation, it seems to me to be appropriate in the pornography area, porn actors are not in LGBT porn, but rather in gay, straight, bi, lesbian, trans, ... porn. On the deletions, I note that [[User:Ronhjones|Ronhjones]], who deleted many categories, apparently [[User_talk:Ronhjones#Mass_deletion_of_categories_-_perhaps_upmerge_the_articles.3F|got bored]] with upmerging. :( I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ronhjones&curid=20834248&diff=567322676&oldid=567168327 requested] an explanation. [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 22:18, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

:I'd like to second EdChem in thanking Bearcat and Diannnaa for their work here.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 13:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

::I got bored '''waiting for AWB to respond''' - my connection is OK, but not the fastest, and sometimes AWB just seems to pause for ages - when it did that for several minutes I aborted, and decided to either try next day or let someone else have a turn. If you want me to run through my contribution list and rollback the edits, then just leave me a note. '''[[User:Ronhjones|<span style="border:1px solid;color:#dfdfdf; padding:1px;background:#ffffdf"><font color="green">&nbsp;Ron<font color="red">h</font>jones&nbsp;</font></span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 16:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

== Persistant disruptive edits on articles labeled "LGBT People from Italy" ==

Three months ago, the same user began to make systematic disruptive edits from different computers on [[Benvenuto Cellini]], [[Poliziano]], [[Torquato Tasso]] and [[Lucio Dalla]] among others.

The different IPs used by this person, probably {{user|Guido Lonchile}}, are, for the more recent ones :

{{user|217.203.129.136}}, {{user|95.74.248.0}} and {{user|109.52.145.74}} for [[Torquato Tasso]]

{{user|217.203.139.73}}, {{user|95.75.19.58}}and {{user|109.52.145.74}} for [[Benvenuto Cellini]]

{{user|95.74.240.181}}, {{user|217.203.139.73}}, {{user|109.54.162.138}} and {{user|B. River}}, specifically created on this purpose for [[Poliziano]].

Isn't it possible to block that person or to protect these articles ? [[User:Frimoussou|Frimoussou]] ([[User talk:Frimoussou|talk]]) 22:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
: Bearcat has protected the articles and range blocks are currently being contemplated. See [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Persistant disruptive edits on articles labeled "LGBT People from Italy"]] -- [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 14:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

== Could someone please enlighen me? ==

Hi there :)
Could someone please check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinky_Lifestyle and let me know why it qualifies for speedy deletion?
The author stated he works on adding english ref. - as far as I can see the german refs (incl. a german newspaper) proove the significance, which I also feel stated within the article itself. - as for advertising maybe someone here has an edit proposal? (pers. I don't consider it advertisment) - any insight would be really appreciated, cause I'm kinda baffled esp. when comparing this one to other bdsm organizations' articles.--[[User:YahZila|YahZila]] ([[User talk:YahZila|talk]]) 21:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
: Since it's now gone - thx for nothing, I guess :( --[[User:YahZila|YahZila]] ([[User talk:YahZila|talk]]) 07:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

== Garbo ==

There is currently a discussion at [[Talk:Greta Garbo#LGBT stuff - again]] (it's hard to miss, as it's currently the only discussion on the page). I participated briefly in a sub-discussion about synthesis, and have advised the current principal editor of the article on technical issues in the past, but am myself a bit confused as to what is considered acceptable in this area (i.e., what constitutes a "documented, notable relationship"). Could someone from this project take a look and offer an opinion regarding the appropriateness of the current article content and the recently removed (unrelated to the mass-deletions discussion above) LGBT-related categories? TIA. [[User:Fat&#38;Happy|Fat&#38;Happy]] ([[User talk:Fat&#38;Happy|talk]]) 23:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

== [[James Dean]] article ==

Can I get some comments/more eyes on [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=James_Dean&curid=18622157&diff=567485802&oldid=567485120 this matter] from this project with regard to the [[James Dean]] article? Like I stated in that edit summary, I don't feel strongly about this matter (Dean being in the LGBT category). And I am the one who had Dean removed from the bisexual category years ago, as that hidden note points to. But it seems justifiable to have him in the LGBT category for reasons Bearcat and I stated in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality&diff=566446726&oldid=565818891#Help.2C_please_with_LGBT_Categories this discussion] at the [[Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality]] talk page. By linking his username now, I also invite [[User:Light show|Light show]], who removed the category before I reverted him, to discuss this. I see that he is also [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Greta_Garbo&diff=567472085&oldid=567469016 discussing a LGBT matter] with regard to the [[Greta Garbo]] article. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 03:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
:And I see that he has now [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=James_Dean&curid=18622157&diff=567487693&oldid=567485802 reverted me], which [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=James_Dean&diff=567488214&oldid=567487693 I left a note about], and he has commented [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flyer22&curid=11122823&diff=567488947&oldid=567488279#Avoid_personalizing_discussions on my talk page.] So, yes, outside input on this James Dean matter would help. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 03:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

:I feel quite strongly about it. The weight of evidence is compelling: he was definitely gay.[[User:Zythe|Zythe]] ([[User talk:Zythe|talk]]) 11:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
::Hey, Zythe. As always, thanks for weighing in. I'm not sure how you feel that he was definitely gay, though. I mean, it seems he had a clear sexual interest in women...unless that was an act. There are claims that he was gay. There are claims that he was bisexual. There are claims that he was actually heterosexual and was only [[gay-for-pay]]. Needless to say, this is why I had him removed from the bisexual category years ago...because his sexual orientation/sexuality is not clear-cut and is a significant matter of debate among people who knew him, media and scholars. Here's a quick link to the aforementioned discussion that led to removing him from the bisexual category: [[Talk:James Dean/Archive 2#Category:Bisexual actors?]] (2009). And here is a discussion from 2012 about how to improve/format that article, which also includes the matter of covering his debated sexual orientation/sexuality: [[Talk:James Dean/Archive 2#Recent article revision from sandbox]]; given that a lot of what is in that sandbox is a better James Dean article, it should be integrated into the article...though it should be cleaned up first. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 11:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Well, I wasn't splitting hairs about gay/bi (often this is an impossible behavioural distinction, and gay works as an umbrella term). More recent sources, such as later works by Bast, very convincingly indicate that he had a primary interest in men with at least a number of beards, in addition to some (earlier) heterosexual affairs, which is unusual. He was clearly a beneficiary of the casting couch, sure, but it does not seem to me he was gay-for-pay. But this is my personal conviction, and I wouldn't put this forward in arguing for a specific LGBT quadrant category. It ought to be uncontroversial to say he was LGBT, however.[[User:Zythe|Zythe]] ([[User talk:Zythe|talk]]) 11:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Okay, thanks for clearing that up. And you find it unusual that Dean had earlier heterosexual affairs? Due to [[heteronormativity]], it's rare that I've come across a gay person who has not had a heterosexual experience (whether the experience was non-sexual, such as simply going out on dates, or sexual). [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 12:05, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::No, but I think it unusual a man would require a beard if he was only gay-for-pay. I think dating women earlier on is perfectly explicable. I realise what I wrote before reads as very unclear![[User:Zythe|Zythe]] ([[User talk:Zythe|talk]]) 12:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::LOL, don't worry about it. Only the part I questioned was unclear to me. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 12:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::::And I apparently overlooked you having added in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies&diff=567528642&oldid=567528512 this.] I just read that part about two minutes ago. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 12:43, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

== [[Talk:Bisexual erasure#Homophobia]] ==

Comments are needed with regard to the linked matter in the heading of this section. I've already [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bisexual_erasure&diff=567547853&oldid=567547599#Homophobia commented there.] [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 14:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

== [[Albert Fish]]'s GAR ==

[[Albert Fish]], an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Talk:Albert Fish/GA1|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User talk:GamerPro64|<font color="red">GamerPro64</font>]] 02:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

== Categorization of LGBT people ==

This has probably been discussed before, so I wanted to bring it up here before taking any action. Why do we categorize people as "LGBT" something when more specific categories (especially {{cat|Gay men}} and {{Cat|Lesbians}}) exist? I thought it was odd that we have {{cat|LGBT people by nationality}} but not {{cat|Gay men by nationality}} or {{cat|Lesbians by nationality}}. So [[Mathieu Chantelois]] is an LGBT person from Canada, not a gay Canadian (or gay Canadian male, if "gay" is deemed too broad). I understand some individuals won't neatly fit into one letter of LGBT, but when they do, doesn't it make sense to have more specific categories? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 18:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
:See [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality&diff=566446726&oldid=565818891#Help.2C_please_with_LGBT_Categories this discussion] (and perhaps the one immediately above it) at [[Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality]]. The short answer is this: Some people have [[Coming out|come out]] as being a part of the [[LGBT]] community (sexuality-wise or both sexuality and support-wise)...without specifying their sexual orientation. And per [[WP:BLPCAT]], they shouldn't be placed in a sexual orientation category unless they have identified with the sexual orientation in question. And then there are the historical figures whose sexuality/sexual orientation has been debated as being [[non-heterosexual]], but their sexuality and sexual orientation has never been confirmed; not to mention...the concept of sexual orientation did not exist during the time that some of these historical figures were alive (though opposite-sex and same-sex sexual attraction has always existed). [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 18:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
::Ok, you raise some really good points there. I hadn't considered that people who appear to be simply gay or lesbian may in fact be bisexual ([[bisexual invisibility]] strikes again!). But where we have reliable statements that "he came out as gay" or "she came out as lesbian," surely we can categorize them more specifically than LGBT, right? So I could go ahead and create and populate {{cat|Gay men by nationality}} and {{cat|Lesbians by nationality}}, for example? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 18:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, of course. But I'd rather wait and see what others of this project have to state about this topic you've brought up and specifically the proposed categories, if anything at all. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 18:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
::::Actually...it can be tricky simply going by sources stating that a person came out as gay, lesbian or bisexual. And this is because the author (or authors) of any given source may have categorized the person as such when the person has not categorized him- or herself as such to the author and/or publicly. As currently noted above on this talk page (the "Sexual orientation/sexual identity discussions with regard to categorizing LGBT people" section), this has happened with [[Jodie Foster]] (though I believe it's clear that Foster has at least come out as LGBT). This is why it's better to go by a statement from the person confirming his or her sexual orientation. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 19:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Similarly, it seems to be quite common these days for someone to indirectly come out by mentioning their partner/spouse, and that doesn't actually tell us if they're gay/lesbian or if they're bi. - [[User:Htonl|htonl]] ([[User talk:Htonl|talk]]) 20:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

By and large, the practice of this project has been to avoid subdividing "LGBT" categories into distinct subcategories for each individual letter, except in a few very specific cases where a single "LGBT" category would be populated into the ''thousands''. That goes for occupational categories (a few of which have quadranted subcategories but most of which do not) and for "nationality" ones (''none'' of which have the quadrants and none of which have sufficient population to need them anyway).

Particularly because LGBT-related categorization is still a sensitive issue that raises [[WP:BLP]] concerns, the project's goal when it comes to "LGBT people" categories has always been to strike a balance: we want there to be enough categories for the tree to be ''useful'', but we also don't want there to be so many categories that the tree becomes too unwieldy to properly ''monitor'' for vandalism or BLP issues. And accordingly, part of the balance that was chosen was to keep most categories at the common "LGBT" level rather than comprehensively subdividing them, and to allow quadrant-specific subcategories ''only'' in cases where the common "LGBT" category was getting large enough to need the breakdown on ''size'' grounds.


==Standardizing 'by country' articles==
Just as an example to illustrate the problem, let's say that you created "Gay men from Canada", "Lesbians from Canada", "Bisexual people from Canada" and "Transgender and transsexual people from Canada". A lot of people could be filtered down into the subcategories, true, but there would still be a few people who would have to be left in the main {{cl|LGBT people from Canada}} parent for the reasons noted above — with the result being that instead of having ''one'' category to monitor for vandals who still think it's funny to add [[Justin Bieber]], you now have ''five''.
Our articles on LGBTQ people by country are quite inconsistent. There are variously articles titled ''LGBTQ people in foo'', ''LGBTQ rights in foo'', ''LGBTQ history in foo'', ''LGBTQ culture in foo'', etc., but little consistency between which countries have which articles. Often the articles contain content beyond what their name would suggest, just because it is the best available location for that content. There have been several proposed moves and related discussions on these articles in the past months, which has demonstrated the need for a centralized discussion.


It would productive to establish a consensus on a model structure for these articles, so that the work to bring them into greater consistency can have a clear goal. To that end, I propose the following:
Now keep going, and maybe you'll see the problem even more clearly: ''every'' "LGBT" category that we have on Wikipedia turns into five categories instead of one? Dear gawd, please no. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 08:29, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
*Every country should have ''LGBTQ people in foo'' as a [[WP:Broad-concept article]].
*Where there is enough content for a more specific topic to have its own article (on the rights, history, or culture of LGBTQ people in the country), there should be a [[WP:Summary style]] subsection in the broad-concept article.
*''LGBTQ in foo'' should redirect to the broad-concept article. Per. [[WP:BCA]], disambiguation pages are not needed where the potential destination articles are conceptually linked and covered by a broad-concept article.


[[LGBTQ people in Mexico]] and its sub-articles provide an example of this structure.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 19:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
== Homosexual propaganda/promotion of homosexuality ==


:If we do choose to move forward with this (or a similar) standardization, I would be down to help work on such a project :) [[User:ForsythiaJo|ForsythiaJo]] ([[User talk:ForsythiaJo|talk]]) 20:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
While the world's eyes are on Russia at the moment, that phrase is not exactly a new concept. As British editors will recall, we had [[Section 28|our own "promotion of homosexuality" law]] (which, thank Christ, only applied to schools and local councils) which got repealed ten years ago. However, the idea of homosexual propaganda still exists here (I've come across four schools whose SRE policies prohibit it, despite the Equality Act), and Section 28 is often brought up to compare similar proposed (but never passed) laws and bill amendments, both here and overseas. I seem to remember Tennessee had what was effectively Section 28 passed a few years ago, for example?
:This works for me. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:56, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
::I would like to add that if there is a DAB page, I think it should be at "LGBTQ topics in X" instead of "LGBTQ in X", which is grammatically wrong. [[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 18:07, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I think the [[WP:BCA]] guideline suggests that DABs shouldn't exist in these situations: {{tq|However, if the primary meaning of a term proposed for disambiguation is a broad concept or type of thing that is capable of being described in an article, and a substantial portion of the links asserted to be ambiguous are instances or examples of that concept or type, then the page located at that title should be an article describing it, and not a disambiguation page.}} There isn't really an ambiguous title in these situations that requires disambiguation between different meanings, but rather a general concept (LGBTQ people in foo) and sub-topics that spin off from that parent article. The BCA serves as the leaping off point to the more specific topics, so a DAB isn't needed.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 03:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Yup that's fair. So if there is a clear BCA, then we don't need a DAB, but I'm saying for cases where there might be ambiguity if a "LGBTQ people in X" has been properly refacted into the BCA, if there is a DAB, it should be at "LGBTQ topics in X" so it is grammatically correct.
::::Else when there is a BCA, all of those "LGBTQ in X" or "LGBTQ topics in X" should redirect to the BCA at "LGBTQ people in X" as we're now establishing as a consensus standard here. [[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 06:40, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:Pinging @[[User:MikutoH|MikutoH]] who has been involved in a lot of these discussions. [[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 18:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::This is a good idea. Will countries that only have rights be revamped into main topics then? If people are interested in working in or expanding such articles, that would be great. --[[User:MikutoH|<span style="color: #be1918;">'''MikutoH'''</span>]] [[User talk:MikutoH|<sup><span style="color:#ee8b39;"> '''talk!''' </span></sup>]] 02:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::What will happen with categories that use LGBTQ as a noun? Similar to how transgender and intersex categories were moved, or are we gonna add another word (such as community)? --[[User:MikutoH|<span style="color: #be1918;">'''MikutoH'''</span>]] [[User talk:MikutoH|<sup><span style="color:#ee8b39;"> '''talk!''' </span></sup>]] 02:14, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I thought it was going to be "topics", "people", "history", etc, depending on the scope of the article? [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:::{{tq| Will countries that only have rights be revamped into main topics then?}} I would say, if the "rights" article is really focussed on rights, it would stay as-is, and at some point hopefully a "people" BCA will be added. But I think a fair number of articles on rights have collected subsections on related topics that would be more suited for a BCA, so there won't be a one-size-fits-all solution.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 14:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
:Just noting that we may not want to assume that ''every'' country should have a separate "LGBTQ people in" page. Small countries or newly-formed states may be better covered as a section in a broader regional article. Doing a quick Google Scholar search to test this theory, I was sometimes able to quickly find country-specific sources (e.g. [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39&q=%22LGBTQ%22+%22East+Timor%22&btnG= East Timor]), but not for some others (e.g. San Marino, Seychelles, Maldives, South Sudan). Results for these searches suggest that e.g. [[LGBTQ people in Sub-Saharan Africa]], would more accurately reflect the scope of available high-quality sources (e.g. [https://cisp.cachefly.net/assets/articles/attachments/80669_lgbtq-rights-in-sub-saharan-africa.pdf]) <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 18:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::That's a fair point. I suppose it would be more accurate to phrase it as, "Where reliable sources are available to create a stand-alone article (or articles) on LGBTQ people in a country, ''LGBTQ people in foo'' should be created as a [[WP:Broad-concept article]]."--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 20:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:Hi. I think the suggestion in general is great. I created this list [[Draft:List of LGBTQ topics]]. Though I'm not sure if it's a mix of [[Outline of LGBTQ topics]] and what would be a "[[LGBT by country|LGBTQ by country]]" plus some related things in the same affix or similar naming. And I created with non-redirect (aka mainspace) articles only. I was also inspired by [[:es:Wikiproyecto:LGBT/Países|this table from Spanish-language version]] of this WikiProject. So it might be useful for y'all to fill the gaps, broaden the scope of some articles or rename (that would make the list inconsistent as time goes and no one updates it). [[User:LIrala|LIrala]] ([[User talk:LIrala|talk]]) 05:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:I have gone ahead and created a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies/Standardizing 'by country' articles|separate page]] to coordinate/discuss this project. [[User:ForsythiaJo|ForsythiaJo]] ([[User talk:ForsythiaJo|talk]]) 20:56, 27 December 2024 (UTC)


== Merge suggestion/advice ==
In any case, the idea of homosexuality as something that can be "promoted", and this being an excuse to oppose or roll back LGBT rights, is a possible case for an article; do others think this is the case? '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 00:29, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
:Do you have an overarching source for this or are you proposing we begin the research for such?--<font face="Mistral" size="3;" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;">[[User:Mark Miller|<span style="color:#008;">Mark</span>]]</font> 00:45, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
::I'm gauging thoughts on this. The Telegraph today [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10252891/Schools-accused-of-reviving-section-28-in-sex-education-policies.html directly compares Section 28 to the Russian law], if you were looking for sources to start with. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 05:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


Hello,
== RFC on LGBT rights under international law ==


I am of the opinion that [[LGBTQ+ media]] should be merged into [[Media portrayal of LGBTQ people]], as the latter is the better article by far. However, I think that the larger article should retain the title of the former.
Members of WikiProject LGBT studies are invited to participate at a [[Talk:LGBT rights under international law#Duplicated text on countries' obligations under international law|Request for Comments concerning material on African countries' obligations under international law to protect LGBT rights]]. —[[User:Psychonaut|Psychonaut]] ([[User talk:Psychonaut|talk]]) 12:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
:I hope editors will not be misled by your heading. The Africa-specific content is just a piece of this. The questions the RfC poses are far more general. [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 12:22, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
::Well, the whole RFC arises because, before [[LGBT rights under international law]] was created, its content was posted to a dozen or so "LGBT in <African country>" articles. One of the main questions of the RFC is to decide whether it's appropriate for the material to remain on those pages. But I suppose you're correct that the RFC isn't solely about that, so I've updated the section heading here and will see about changing it on other noticeboards. —[[User:Psychonaut|Psychonaut]] ([[User talk:Psychonaut|talk]]) 12:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


Do the members of this WikiProject feel the same? I am open to suggestions. Also, I don't know how to propose this non-basic merge, so if anyone wants to provide guidance on this, let me know as well.
== More eyes at [[Coalition for Marriage]] ==


Thanks!
Hi guys, can i get some more eyes at the [[Coalition for Marriage]] article. I'm not able to scrutinise every edit at the moment and strangely the article is attracting more brand new users than it was when it was in the news on a weekly basis. Thanks '''[[User:Jenova20|ツ <span style="background:pink"><span style="color:crimson; font-family:comic sans ms">Jenova</span>]][[User_talk:Jenova20|<span style="color:red">20</span>]]</span> <sup>([[Special:EmailUser/Jenova20|email]])</sup>''' 10:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


[[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) &#124; :) &#124; he/him &#124; 10:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
== [[Chelsea Manning]] and [[Talk:Gender identity disorder#Updates required to reflect DSM-5]] ==


:I think those are two very separate topics. The first is about media made by and for LGBTQ people. The second is about portrayal of LGBTQ people across all media. Neither topic subsumes the other although they do overlap. I agree that [[LGBTQ+ media]] is a very poor article. In fact, most of what it should be is so entirely missing that I can't blame you for not realising what the point of that article is.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=569783906&oldid=569783324#Chelsea_Manning.2FBradley_Manning This] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gender_identity_disorder&diff=569776240&oldid=569776107#Updates_required_to_reflect_DSM-5 this] are matters some of you might be interested in commenting on. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 22:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
:Generally, I think our whole coverage of this topic area is poor. We are up to our eyeballs in articles called "List of..." but missing some articles that explain these topics properly.
:If we are going to fix it then this is quite a big project and certainly beyond my abilities. To give an idea of what I think we need, [[LGBTQ+ media]] should cover the history of LGBTQ publishing (publishing houses, books, magazines, openly and covertly LGBT publications, academic publications etc), poetry, theatre and then film and broadcasting channels and internet outlets. It needs to take a global perspective. It can pull in a summary of content from [[Gay literature]], [[Lesbian literature]] and [[Transgender literature]] etc as a good start on the print side. For other topics there is [[LGBTQ theatre]], [[Gay pornography]], [[Gay pulp fiction]], [[Lesbian erotica]] (insofar as it is actually made for lesbians). For the globalisation there are several regional articles like [[LGBT literature in Spain]] which can be summarised and linked to. These provide jumping off points to things like [[Homoerotic literature in ancient Rome]] and [[Hispano-Arabic homoerotic poetry]]. We do have ''a lot of'' coverage that is not summarised or even linked in this, the main article about the topic. We also have some serious gaps in our coverage. For example, where is our coverage of LGBTQ TV and radio stations? I see this article as the top level jumping off point for all these topics. It should cover them all briefly, trying to provide a coherent overview, and provide links to the individual articles for more detail. --[[User:DanielRigal|DanielRigal]] ([[User talk:DanielRigal|talk]]) 16:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::+1, they are separate (related) topics and should stay separate. [[User:Raladic|Raladic]] ([[User talk:Raladic|talk]]) 18:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::I agree: we should not merge these. [[LGBTQ+ media]] is about (for example) magazines and news organisations that cover queer news or books and films by queer creators, whereas [[Media portrayal of LGBTQ people]] is about how predominantly cis-het media represents queer people.
::[[The Advocate (magazine)|''The Advocate'' (magazine)]] and ''[[I Saw the TV Glow]]'' could both be within the remit of the former, but only the film would be within the remit of the latter. [[List of horror television series with LGBT characters]] is within the remit of the latter, but not the former. — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]]</span> <small>(he/him; [[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]])</small></span> 19:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::Agree that the two articles should remain separate. I've started doing some work to expand LGBTQ+ media, but it definitely needs a ton of work, especially for coverage of non-English speaking countries. [[User:ForsythiaJo|ForsythiaJo]] ([[User talk:ForsythiaJo|talk]]) 21:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I've also started a [[User:ForsythiaJo/LGBTQ radio|draft]] on LGBTQ radio, which folks are welcome to add to if they're interested. There's a ton of academic coverage on the subject, which is great. [[User:ForsythiaJo|ForsythiaJo]] ([[User talk:ForsythiaJo|talk]]) 05:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
::@[[User:DanielRigal|DanielRigal]], that is a good point, and its validity is increased by @[[User:ForsythiaJo|ForsythiaJo]]'s edits. I'm glad we were able to improve the encyclopedia, regardless of my initial proposal.
::[[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) &#124; :) &#124; he/him &#124; 22:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::I also support Daniel's idea. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
::I agree with Daniel. One article discusses media generated to be viewed by LGBTQ people, the other discusses the portrayal of LGBTQ people (or lack thereof) in mainstream media outlets. [[User:HenrikHolen|HenrikHolen]] ([[User talk:HenrikHolen|talk]]) 01:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:I think that there are portions of the US subsection of [[LGBTQ+ media]] which should be moved to the [[Media portrayal of LGBTQ people]] article. Specifically the parts which discuss the rules and regulations which limited LGBTQ representation. [[User:HenrikHolen|HenrikHolen]] ([[User talk:HenrikHolen|talk]]) 15:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'll put a note about that on the Talk Page and then can move it in a couple days if there's no objections. [[User:ForsythiaJo|ForsythiaJo]] ([[User talk:ForsythiaJo|talk]]) 15:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)


== Navbox question ==
: Yes, I was just going to recommend that editors weigh in [[Talk:Chelsea Manning]] discussion as there are a lot of misconceptions flying around. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="Purple">'''''L'''''iz</font> <sup>[[User_talk:Liz|<font face="Times New Roman" color="Navy">'''''Let's Talk'''''</font>]]</sup> 00:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
::Noting here some different places this matter has spilled: [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=569819787&oldid=569818669#Request_for_lift_of_topic_ban Here], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sceptre&diff=569813083&oldid=569813032#Block here], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=569819792&oldid=569814134#Should_we_really_yield_to_gender_identity_when_one.27s_biological_sex_is_vitally_important.3F here], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=569819792&oldid=569814134#MOS:Identity here]. And even a [[WP:BOLD]] attempt by an IP to change [[MOS:IDENTITY]], which [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style&diff=569806291&oldid=569805723 was reverted.] And, of course, there's the news (as in the media). [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 05:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


See the discussion about [[Template:LGBTQ fiction]] at [[LGBTQ+ media]]. Comment if interested :)
== MOS:IDENTITY FAQ ==


[[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) &#124; :) &#124; he/him &#124; 22:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
After seeing the debates at [[Chaz Bono]], [[Laura Jane Grace]], and now [[Chelsea Manning]] regarding [[MOS:IDENTITY]], it seems like some sort of [[WP:WPESSAY|essay]] might be helpful explaining the basic principles behind the guideline. I don't think the level of understanding of trans issues in the general public is very high, and a quick overview might make a lot of things clearer for many editors. Do we have anything like that?


== Merge proposed for Disorders of Sex Development and Sexual Anomalies ==
I've done up a draft [[WP:GENDERIDENTITY|here]]; please feel free to edit, as I am not an expert on transgender issues. I think it would ultimately live best as a project space essay, perhaps at [[WP:GENDERIDENTITY]].--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 00:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


:My thanks to the editors who have participated. I've gone ahead and moved it to [[Wikipedia:Gender identity]], with a redirect from the above.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 13:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Since this topic relates to intersex and was labeled of interest to the LGBTQ+ Wikiproject, I figured you guys might want to weigh in. [[Talk:Disorders of sex development#Merge Proposal|Here is the discussion]]. [[User:Urchincrawler|Urchincrawler]] ([[User talk:Urchincrawler|talk]]) 16:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)


== LGBTQ to LGBTQ+ ==
== Splitting Homophobia in the black community ==
Should we re-name pages from "LGBTQ" to "LGBTQ+"? [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 23:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)


:'''Yes'''. The acronym for LGBTQ doesn't account for aromantic people, asexual people, intersex people, or non-binary people. Nor does it account for varying non-cis and non-heterosexual identities, sexualities, gender identities etc from outside mainstream western media, like ''[[two-spirit]]'', [[Faʻafafine]], [[fakafifine]], [[takatāpui]], [[vakasalewalewa]], [[māhū]] or [[palopa]] etc. I think using "+" would account for all these and more without the need for a long acronym like LGBTIQA (which itself omits non-binary, among others). It would also help negate future moving over "why include Q but not A" etc. Many of the pages using LGBTQ in their title cover aromantic people, asexual people, intersex people, and/or non-binary, so I think this would be most relevant and applicable. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 23:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
I have proposed that [[Homophobia in the black community]] should be split into separate articles [[Homophobia in the African American community]] and [[Homophobia in the Black British community]] anybody with opinions would be most welcome.[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 20:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:Question: Wasn’t there a discussion recently about changing the acronym that was based on sources? I thought that that was for everything, but maybe not.
:[[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) &#124; :) &#124; he/him &#124; 01:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Prefer Q+, but snowclose.''' A move discussion at [[Talk:LGBTQ]] (the appropriate venue) occurred relatively recently, with many arguments put forth, which resulted in moving from LGBT to LGBTQ, based especially on Google Ngrams data. Let's revisit adding a plus once Ngrams gets data for 2023. –[[User:RoxySaunders|RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️]] ([[User talk:RoxySaunders|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/RoxySaunders|stalk]]) 03:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Prefer Q+ but [[WP:SNOWCLOSE]]'''. As per Roxy. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 13:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Snowclose'''. I also prefer LGBTQ+, but it is too soon to revisit the consensus established in the recent RM that settled on [[LGBTQ]].--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 13:56, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
*This is [[WP:RFCNOT|not an RfC matter]]. Please use the procedure described at [[WP:RM#CM]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:44, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{U|Redrose64}} In this case it is because we are not talking about the move of a single page but mass moving many pages. Those template parameters are for single page moves. [[WP:RMPM]] wouldn't be relevant as there are far, far too many pages starting with LGBTQ to list. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 04:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
::{{U|Redrose64}} please respond. You removed the rfc far too soon, without any adequate chance of response beforehand and haven't responded to what I stated above a week ago. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 22:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::[[WP:CONSUB]] says that subtopics should use consistent naming with the parent article, so articles have generally been kept consistent with the article currently at [[LGBTQ]]. This previously meant everything got standardized to [[LGBT]]. Since August, when that article was moved to [[LGBTQ]], other articles have followed suit. The move was very thoroughly discussed back in August, and despite it not resulting in my preferred outcome, I think it is much too soon to revisit it.--[[User:Trystan|Trystan]] ([[User talk:Trystan|talk]]) 23:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::There is no harm in holding a normal discussion on this Wikiproject talk page. If you want to escalate it, but don't want to use the WP:RM process, you could try [[WP:VPR]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 13:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*This should be checked on a case by case basis. Check the scope for each page first before any rename, as the + may or may not be relevant. It may or may not be meaningful to expand the topic of each page. So for a proper RFC or requested move, all the pages affected should be listed before any rename. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 21:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:This seems fraught. What makes an article have an ''LGBTQ'' vs. ''LGBTQ+'' scope? –[[User:RoxySaunders|RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️]] ([[User talk:RoxySaunders|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/RoxySaunders|stalk]]) 22:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
** {{U|RoxySaunders}} we could either change all LGBTQ pages to LGBTQ+ or go on a case-by-case basis on whether or not the page covers sexualities and/or gender identities outside the LGBTQ paradigm. I'd go for the former as the vast majority of pages (especially the most substantial ones) that discuss these matters that use LGBTQ in their title are basically used as a catch-all for non-straight and/or non-cis sexualities and/or gender identities. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 20:03, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
**:I think case by case is better. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


== [[Matthew Shepard]] move request ==
:Why not merge into [[Homophobia]]? It's not exactly a lot of content and it's likely to duplicate a lot of the same sources and content. Thanks '''[[User:Jenova20|ツ <span style="background:pink"><span style="color:crimson; font-family:comic sans ms">Jenova</span>]][[User_talk:Jenova20|<span style="color:red">20</span>]]</span> <sup>([[Special:EmailUser/Jenova20|email]])</sup>''' 09:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


There's a move request, [[Matthew Shepard]] → [[Murder of Matthew Shepard]], that editors here may have useful expertise to contribute: [[Talk:Matthew Shepard#Requested move 22 December 2024]]. [[User:Davidwbaker|Davidwbaker]] ([[User talk:Davidwbaker|talk]]) 21:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
::'''Oppose''' I really don't think [[Homophobia in the Black British community]] would be able to stand on its own. And as to Jenova20's question this is about a form of inter-minority prejudice not just one side. And very few of the sources are used in both articles.-[[User:Rainbowofpeace|Rainbowofpeace]] ([[User talk:Rainbowofpeace|talk]]) 02:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


== Good article reassessment for [[American Horror Story]] ==
:The titles, and the scope/POV they invite seems non-neutral. This goes for both [[Homophobia in the black community]] and [[Homophobia in the Latino community]]. Wikipedia doesn't have any other "Homophobia in X community" articles. If they are kept, they should be renamed and constructed neutrally, similar to how the articles in [[:Category:LGBT topics and religion]] are handled. [[User:Siawase|Siawase]] ([[User talk:Siawase|talk]]) 16:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
[[American Horror Story]] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/American Horror Story/2|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 23:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::Maybe "Homosexuality and race"? [[User:Teammm|<font style="color:black;font-family:fantasy">'''''Teammm'''''</font>]]&nbsp;{{su|p= [[User talk:Teammm|<font color="green">'''''talk'''''</font>]] |b= [[Special:EmailUser/Teammm|<font color="black">'''''email'''''</font>]]|fontsize=1.5ex}} 17:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


== Good article reassessment for [[Romaine Brooks]] ==
::Wikipedia does have other inter-minority prejudice articles please see [[Racism in the LGBT community]] as well as [[African-American–Jewish relations]]. If you would like Homophobia in the X community why not add it. However if you are going to take down the two articles in question you should address all four evenly so not as to show bias.-[[User:Rainbowofpeace|Rainbowofpeace]] ([[User talk:Rainbowofpeace|talk]]) 20:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
[[Romaine Brooks]] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Romaine Brooks/1|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 23:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)


== Someone to create a page for me and my work ==
:::[[African-American–Jewish relations]] appears to be neutrally named and constructed though. If it was named similar to [[Homophobia in the black community]] it would be named "Anti-semitism in the black community" and/or "Anti-black racism in the Jewish community" (topics which are both covered more neutrally within the broader [[African-American–Jewish relations]] article.)
:::[[Racism in the LGBT community]] looks like it might have neutrality problems too though. It's probable the intersection of race and LGBT could be covered more neutrally, maybe a broader article covering race and LGBT that includes the contents of the [[Racism in the LGBT community]], [[Homophobia in the black community]], [[Homophobia in the Latino community]] as well as other content like intersectional activism (ie, activism against racism as well as homophobia, transphobia etc.) [[User:Siawase|Siawase]] ([[User talk:Siawase|talk]]) 04:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)


I am a North Carolinian, queer poet, author of numerous books, some awards. The first gay poet in NC .... to remain in NC ... and be completely out. There were others of my generation who left the state and became well known, and some previous to me who also did so. But before me the ones that stayed behind were well hidden, or not out at all. Poet and publisher Jonathan Williams was my main mentor. Also James Broughton and Michael Rumaker. Many gay composers have set my poems to music. Anyhow, you can read and learn about me at my website https://jefferybeam.com/ There is more news (and one new book) not on my website as it has not been updated in a while. Born 1953. Hope someone can step forward from your group to add content about my life and work to Wikipedia. [[User:Jeffbeam|Jeffbeam]] ([[User talk:Jeffbeam|talk]]) 22:18, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I have already tried to do this with Racism in the LGBT community article long before the other two existed. How can we assure it will work this time?-[[User:Rainbowofpeace|Rainbowofpeace]] ([[User talk:Rainbowofpeace|talk]]) 06:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:See [[WP:PROUD]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1F98C; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:59, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:Hi Jeffery. To have a Wikipedia article about you, there must exist reliable and independent sources which provide significant, in-depth discussion of you or your work (see the [[WP:General notability guideline]] and [[WP:Notability (people)]] for the project's exact policy). Unfortunately, most people, even most published authors do not meet Wikipedia's definition of [[WP:notability|notability]]. If you're aware of reliable sources independent from yourself that would be useful for writing a biography about you, please list them. –[[User:RoxySaunders|RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️]] ([[User talk:RoxySaunders|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/RoxySaunders|stalk]]) 23:37, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:To follow on from Roxy, I would suggest providing at least four independent, reliable sources (not primary or self-published sources) which discuss you and your work in depth. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::Five could be better if possible. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 21:49, 31 December 2024 (UTC)


== Proposal: split off the history sections [[Gay literature]] and [[Lesbian literature]] pages into one page ==
:::::Well, from a quick look at [[Talk:Racism in the LGBT community]] it seems that it has been nominated for deletion several times, but a formal move request to see if consensus can be found for changing/broadening the scope has not been tried, so maybe that would be a good place to start? [[User:Siawase|Siawase]] ([[User talk:Siawase|talk]]) 08:06, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
::::::I'm somewhat convinced. I really do think that having all three topics addressed neutrally sounds better. Besides I was going to add articles on Homophobia in the Asian diaspora, Homophobia in the Native American community, Homophobia in the Arab Community and Homophobia in the Jewish community anyway. That might be easier in one article on LGBT-Ethnic minority relations.-[[User:Rainbowofpeace|Rainbowofpeace]] ([[User talk:Rainbowofpeace|talk]]) 08:48, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
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Yeah, a larger article covering several ethnicities sounds like a good idea. Some might not have enough material to warrant stand-alone articles. Maybe model it after the [[LGBT and religion topics]] article? There would also be some overlap where we already have articles like [[Judaism and sexual orientation]] for example. I still don't think the "Homophobia in..." format is neutral, and indeed, some of the content already in the [[Homophobia in the Black Diasporic community]] (like the number of openly LGBT people, or president Obama speaking out against homophobia) would fit better under a more general "LGBT and the Black Diasporic community" rubric. [[User:Siawase|Siawase]] ([[User talk:Siawase|talk]]) 09:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
:Follow up after thinking it over. How about a more general race/ethnicity and LGBT article with a listing (similar to [[LGBT and religion topics]]) of all the ethnicities you mentioned, as well as the ones in [[Racism in the LGBT community]], and then under the header for each ethnicity mention racism experienced by LGBT members of that ethnicity, homophobia and/or acceptance within the ethnicity, gay rights and other activism within that community (like Obama's statement) and any other more general information (like the number of out people.) I think that could come out workable and neutral. [[User:Siawase|Siawase]] ([[User talk:Siawase|talk]]) 11:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)


([[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1227#Splitting_off_parts_of_two_articles_to_make_a_third._Some_questions| It was suggested to be taken here when I asked in the Teahouse]], as it involves splitting multiple articles to create a third. If it's the wrong place, blame them, not me. I'm just a newbie trying to help and not make mistakes)
== Article titles for transgendered people ==


I propose that we split the history aspects of [[Gay literature]] and [[Lesbian literature]] into their own third article: [[History of Gay and Lesbian literature]] (1), or separate articles [[History of Gay Literature]] and [[History of Lesbian literature]] (2). --[[User:Lover of lgbt literature|Lover of lgbt literature]] ([[User talk:Lover of lgbt literature|talk]]) 10:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Article_titles_for_transgender_people This discussion] may be of interest to readers of this talk page. [[User:Josh Gorand|Josh Gorand]] ([[User talk:Josh Gorand|talk]]) 23:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


* '''Support 1 and 2 with equal preference, as proposer''', because the history aspect of the topics currently dominates both articles and can easily stand on their own, and I think splitting them off will allow other aspects of both topics to have some breathing room. I excluded [[Bisexual literature]] and [[Transgender literature]], as their history section are small enough not to dominate their articles. I know it took me a while to get here from the teahouse, but things happened, and I forgot until now.--[[User:Lover of lgbt literature|Lover of lgbt literature]] ([[User talk:Lover of lgbt literature|talk]]) 10:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
== [[WP:MOSFLAG]] ==


* '''Oppose'''. Lesbian literature history is focused on the lesbian subject and should remain independent from the history of Gay male literature. And creating a stand-alone article titled "History of Lesbian literature" as an addition to the existing [[Lesbian literature]] article (which is historical) is senseless. [[User:Pyxis Solitary|<span style="background-color: #eadff5; color: #6e02db;">'''Pyxis Solitary'''</span>]] [[User talk:Pyxis Solitary| <span style="color:#FF007C;">(yak yak)</span>]]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black">Ol' homo.</span> 11:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Totally serendipitously, I've stumbled upon what looks to me like an aspect of the "List of lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender-related films" pages that is out of synch with the Manual of Style guideline on flag icons. Beyond notifying this wiki-project about it, I'm going to leave the issue alone. It's my hope that there will be a recognition here that the flags provide no additional information beyond that already conveyed by the names of the countries they decorate. That's the logic behind the guideline. Happy editing. [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] ([[User talk:David in DC|talk]]) 03:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)


:'''Oppose''' for now. [[Gay literature]] has about 6.2K readable words and [[Lesbian literature]] has about 4.6K readable words. Neither is overly long at this point and both of them cover a lot of history. Moving history to one or two new pages would fragment the info and make all of them rather short. A better idea would be to wait and see if any particular section gets overly long, and then spin that off into its own section if needed. But that seems a distant issue for now. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 12:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
== Merge discussion for [[Pangender]] ==


== Cass Review page in need of consensus ==
[[Image:Information.svg|25px]] An article in this WikiProject, [[Pangender]], has been proposed for a [[Help:Merging and moving pages|merge]] with the article [[Genderqueer]]. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going {{ #if:Talk:Genderqueer#Merge proposal |[[Talk:Genderqueer#Merge proposal|here]]|to the article and clicking on the (Discuss) link at the top of the article}}, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. [[User:April Arcus|April Arcus]] ([[User talk:April Arcus|talk]]) 07:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


Morning all,
== Missing topics page ==


I suspect it's still too soon after Christmas to get many people involved right now, but there are some ongoing discussions over at [[Cass Review]] which could benefit from more input. At the moment there are just a small handful of us discussing, so it tends to be one-on-one discussions, and then any emerging consensus gets overwritten as soon as the new one-to-one discussion starts. There have also been some overlapping edits made around the same time which have resulted in accidental restoration of text which no one was happy with, thus making the article worse than it would have been. Some extra eyes on this might help.
I have updated [[User:Skysmith/Missing topics about LGBT|Missing LGBT topics]] - [[User:Skysmith|Skysmith]] ([[User talk:Skysmith|talk]]) 10:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


Key discussions:
== Lawsuit article needed, any takers? ==
* Background: How much do we need to include about the history of GIDS here?
* Methodology: How much space should be given over to the systematic reviews versus other forms of evidence included, and the nature of synthesis itself?
* What counts as valid evidence per MEDRS – e.g., is the systematic review by RAND Health & Wellbeing valid, and does it matter that the Cass Review itself wasn't peer reviewed if the systematic reviews were?
* Should the responses of gender critical groups be removed or should they stay in the responses section?


There's probably more, but those are off the top of my head. I reckon we can get some quick consensus so I've held off on doing a formal RfC for that reason. I think it's more a problem of few editors engaging right now, rather than one of intractable disagreement. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Hey all, after reading [http://www.freedomtomarry.org/blog/entry/victory-the-department-of-veterans-affairs-must-honor-marriages-of-same-sex/ this news story] about a victory for same-sex couples in the case of ''Cooper-Harris v. United States'', I went looking for the wikiarticle but all I can find is one short mention [[Defense_of_Marriage_Act#Military_and_veterans_cases|here]]. Since this case has major effects regarding veterans benefits for same-sex couples, seems like it deserves its own article. I don't have time to create one and track down refs and legal citations - anyone else want to give it a go? [[User:Textorus|Textorus]] ([[User talk:Textorus|talk]]) 17:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)


== The Vivienne ==
== More eyes at [[LGBT rights in Russia]] ==


Can I get more eyes at the [[LGBT rights in Russia]] article. IP users are making many questionable and POV edits. Thanks!--<font face="bold">[[User:Wikiwind|<span style="background:#633B7E;color:#FFD550;padding:0 2px">В и к и</span>]][[User talk:Wikiwind|<span style="background:#FFD666;padding:0 2px;color:#0000;"> T </span>]]</font> 19:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
British drag performer [[The Vivienne]] has died. Article improvements welcome. ---[[User:Another Believer|<span style="color:navy">Another Believer</span>]] <sub>([[User talk:Another Believer|<span style="color:#C60">Talk</span>]])</sub> 20:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:49, 5 January 2025

WikiProject

LGBTQ+ studies
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    Standardizing 'by country' articles

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    Our articles on LGBTQ people by country are quite inconsistent. There are variously articles titled LGBTQ people in foo, LGBTQ rights in foo, LGBTQ history in foo, LGBTQ culture in foo, etc., but little consistency between which countries have which articles. Often the articles contain content beyond what their name would suggest, just because it is the best available location for that content. There have been several proposed moves and related discussions on these articles in the past months, which has demonstrated the need for a centralized discussion.

    It would productive to establish a consensus on a model structure for these articles, so that the work to bring them into greater consistency can have a clear goal. To that end, I propose the following:

    • Every country should have LGBTQ people in foo as a WP:Broad-concept article.
    • Where there is enough content for a more specific topic to have its own article (on the rights, history, or culture of LGBTQ people in the country), there should be a WP:Summary style subsection in the broad-concept article.
    • LGBTQ in foo should redirect to the broad-concept article. Per. WP:BCA, disambiguation pages are not needed where the potential destination articles are conceptually linked and covered by a broad-concept article.

    LGBTQ people in Mexico and its sub-articles provide an example of this structure.--Trystan (talk) 19:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    If we do choose to move forward with this (or a similar) standardization, I would be down to help work on such a project :) ForsythiaJo (talk) 20:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This works for me. Lewisguile (talk) 09:56, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would like to add that if there is a DAB page, I think it should be at "LGBTQ topics in X" instead of "LGBTQ in X", which is grammatically wrong. Raladic (talk) 18:07, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the WP:BCA guideline suggests that DABs shouldn't exist in these situations: However, if the primary meaning of a term proposed for disambiguation is a broad concept or type of thing that is capable of being described in an article, and a substantial portion of the links asserted to be ambiguous are instances or examples of that concept or type, then the page located at that title should be an article describing it, and not a disambiguation page. There isn't really an ambiguous title in these situations that requires disambiguation between different meanings, but rather a general concept (LGBTQ people in foo) and sub-topics that spin off from that parent article. The BCA serves as the leaping off point to the more specific topics, so a DAB isn't needed.--Trystan (talk) 03:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup that's fair. So if there is a clear BCA, then we don't need a DAB, but I'm saying for cases where there might be ambiguity if a "LGBTQ people in X" has been properly refacted into the BCA, if there is a DAB, it should be at "LGBTQ topics in X" so it is grammatically correct.
    Else when there is a BCA, all of those "LGBTQ in X" or "LGBTQ topics in X" should redirect to the BCA at "LGBTQ people in X" as we're now establishing as a consensus standard here. Raladic (talk) 06:40, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging @MikutoH who has been involved in a lot of these discussions. Raladic (talk) 18:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a good idea. Will countries that only have rights be revamped into main topics then? If people are interested in working in or expanding such articles, that would be great. --MikutoH talk! 02:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What will happen with categories that use LGBTQ as a noun? Similar to how transgender and intersex categories were moved, or are we gonna add another word (such as community)? --MikutoH talk! 02:14, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought it was going to be "topics", "people", "history", etc, depending on the scope of the article? Lewisguile (talk) 09:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Will countries that only have rights be revamped into main topics then? I would say, if the "rights" article is really focussed on rights, it would stay as-is, and at some point hopefully a "people" BCA will be added. But I think a fair number of articles on rights have collected subsections on related topics that would be more suited for a BCA, so there won't be a one-size-fits-all solution.--Trystan (talk) 14:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just noting that we may not want to assume that every country should have a separate "LGBTQ people in" page. Small countries or newly-formed states may be better covered as a section in a broader regional article. Doing a quick Google Scholar search to test this theory, I was sometimes able to quickly find country-specific sources (e.g. East Timor), but not for some others (e.g. San Marino, Seychelles, Maldives, South Sudan). Results for these searches suggest that e.g. LGBTQ people in Sub-Saharan Africa, would more accurately reflect the scope of available high-quality sources (e.g. [1]) signed, Rosguill talk 18:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a fair point. I suppose it would be more accurate to phrase it as, "Where reliable sources are available to create a stand-alone article (or articles) on LGBTQ people in a country, LGBTQ people in foo should be created as a WP:Broad-concept article."--Trystan (talk) 20:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi. I think the suggestion in general is great. I created this list Draft:List of LGBTQ topics. Though I'm not sure if it's a mix of Outline of LGBTQ topics and what would be a "LGBTQ by country" plus some related things in the same affix or similar naming. And I created with non-redirect (aka mainspace) articles only. I was also inspired by this table from Spanish-language version of this WikiProject. So it might be useful for y'all to fill the gaps, broaden the scope of some articles or rename (that would make the list inconsistent as time goes and no one updates it). LIrala (talk) 05:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have gone ahead and created a separate page to coordinate/discuss this project. ForsythiaJo (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Merge suggestion/advice

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    Hello,

    I am of the opinion that LGBTQ+ media should be merged into Media portrayal of LGBTQ people, as the latter is the better article by far. However, I think that the larger article should retain the title of the former.

    Do the members of this WikiProject feel the same? I am open to suggestions. Also, I don't know how to propose this non-basic merge, so if anyone wants to provide guidance on this, let me know as well.

    Thanks!

    JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 10:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I think those are two very separate topics. The first is about media made by and for LGBTQ people. The second is about portrayal of LGBTQ people across all media. Neither topic subsumes the other although they do overlap. I agree that LGBTQ+ media is a very poor article. In fact, most of what it should be is so entirely missing that I can't blame you for not realising what the point of that article is.
    Generally, I think our whole coverage of this topic area is poor. We are up to our eyeballs in articles called "List of..." but missing some articles that explain these topics properly.
    If we are going to fix it then this is quite a big project and certainly beyond my abilities. To give an idea of what I think we need, LGBTQ+ media should cover the history of LGBTQ publishing (publishing houses, books, magazines, openly and covertly LGBT publications, academic publications etc), poetry, theatre and then film and broadcasting channels and internet outlets. It needs to take a global perspective. It can pull in a summary of content from Gay literature, Lesbian literature and Transgender literature etc as a good start on the print side. For other topics there is LGBTQ theatre, Gay pornography, Gay pulp fiction, Lesbian erotica (insofar as it is actually made for lesbians). For the globalisation there are several regional articles like LGBT literature in Spain which can be summarised and linked to. These provide jumping off points to things like Homoerotic literature in ancient Rome and Hispano-Arabic homoerotic poetry. We do have a lot of coverage that is not summarised or even linked in this, the main article about the topic. We also have some serious gaps in our coverage. For example, where is our coverage of LGBTQ TV and radio stations? I see this article as the top level jumping off point for all these topics. It should cover them all briefly, trying to provide a coherent overview, and provide links to the individual articles for more detail. --DanielRigal (talk) 16:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    +1, they are separate (related) topics and should stay separate. Raladic (talk) 18:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree: we should not merge these. LGBTQ+ media is about (for example) magazines and news organisations that cover queer news or books and films by queer creators, whereas Media portrayal of LGBTQ people is about how predominantly cis-het media represents queer people.
    The Advocate (magazine) and I Saw the TV Glow could both be within the remit of the former, but only the film would be within the remit of the latter. List of horror television series with LGBT characters is within the remit of the latter, but not the former. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 19:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree that the two articles should remain separate. I've started doing some work to expand LGBTQ+ media, but it definitely needs a ton of work, especially for coverage of non-English speaking countries. ForsythiaJo (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've also started a draft on LGBTQ radio, which folks are welcome to add to if they're interested. There's a ton of academic coverage on the subject, which is great. ForsythiaJo (talk) 05:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @DanielRigal, that is a good point, and its validity is increased by @ForsythiaJo's edits. I'm glad we were able to improve the encyclopedia, regardless of my initial proposal.
    JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 22:30, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also support Daniel's idea. Lewisguile (talk) 09:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Daniel. One article discusses media generated to be viewed by LGBTQ people, the other discusses the portrayal of LGBTQ people (or lack thereof) in mainstream media outlets. HenrikHolen (talk) 01:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that there are portions of the US subsection of LGBTQ+ media which should be moved to the Media portrayal of LGBTQ people article. Specifically the parts which discuss the rules and regulations which limited LGBTQ representation. HenrikHolen (talk) 15:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll put a note about that on the Talk Page and then can move it in a couple days if there's no objections. ForsythiaJo (talk) 15:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    [edit]

    See the discussion about Template:LGBTQ fiction at LGBTQ+ media. Comment if interested :)

    JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 22:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Merge proposed for Disorders of Sex Development and Sexual Anomalies

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    Since this topic relates to intersex and was labeled of interest to the LGBTQ+ Wikiproject, I figured you guys might want to weigh in. Here is the discussion. Urchincrawler (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    LGBTQ to LGBTQ+

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    Should we re-name pages from "LGBTQ" to "LGBTQ+"? Helper201 (talk) 23:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. The acronym for LGBTQ doesn't account for aromantic people, asexual people, intersex people, or non-binary people. Nor does it account for varying non-cis and non-heterosexual identities, sexualities, gender identities etc from outside mainstream western media, like two-spirit, Faʻafafine, fakafifine, takatāpui, vakasalewalewa, māhū or palopa etc. I think using "+" would account for all these and more without the need for a long acronym like LGBTIQA (which itself omits non-binary, among others). It would also help negate future moving over "why include Q but not A" etc. Many of the pages using LGBTQ in their title cover aromantic people, asexual people, intersex people, and/or non-binary, so I think this would be most relevant and applicable. Helper201 (talk) 23:44, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Question: Wasn’t there a discussion recently about changing the acronym that was based on sources? I thought that that was for everything, but maybe not.
    JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 01:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Prefer Q+, but snowclose. A move discussion at Talk:LGBTQ (the appropriate venue) occurred relatively recently, with many arguments put forth, which resulted in moving from LGBT to LGBTQ, based especially on Google Ngrams data. Let's revisit adding a plus once Ngrams gets data for 2023. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 03:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Prefer Q+ but WP:SNOWCLOSE. As per Roxy. Lewisguile (talk) 13:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Snowclose. I also prefer LGBTQ+, but it is too soon to revisit the consensus established in the recent RM that settled on LGBTQ.--Trystan (talk) 13:56, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Redrose64 In this case it is because we are not talking about the move of a single page but mass moving many pages. Those template parameters are for single page moves. WP:RMPM wouldn't be relevant as there are far, far too many pages starting with LGBTQ to list. Helper201 (talk) 04:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Redrose64 please respond. You removed the rfc far too soon, without any adequate chance of response beforehand and haven't responded to what I stated above a week ago. Helper201 (talk) 22:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:CONSUB says that subtopics should use consistent naming with the parent article, so articles have generally been kept consistent with the article currently at LGBTQ. This previously meant everything got standardized to LGBT. Since August, when that article was moved to LGBTQ, other articles have followed suit. The move was very thoroughly discussed back in August, and despite it not resulting in my preferred outcome, I think it is much too soon to revisit it.--Trystan (talk) 23:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no harm in holding a normal discussion on this Wikiproject talk page. If you want to escalate it, but don't want to use the WP:RM process, you could try WP:VPR. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Matthew Shepard move request

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    There's a move request, Matthew Shepard → Murder of Matthew Shepard, that editors here may have useful expertise to contribute: Talk:Matthew Shepard#Requested move 22 December 2024. Davidwbaker (talk) 21:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Good article reassessment for American Horror Story

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    American Horror Story has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Good article reassessment for Romaine Brooks

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    Romaine Brooks has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Someone to create a page for me and my work

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    I am a North Carolinian, queer poet, author of numerous books, some awards. The first gay poet in NC .... to remain in NC ... and be completely out. There were others of my generation who left the state and became well known, and some previous to me who also did so. But before me the ones that stayed behind were well hidden, or not out at all. Poet and publisher Jonathan Williams was my main mentor. Also James Broughton and Michael Rumaker. Many gay composers have set my poems to music. Anyhow, you can read and learn about me at my website https://jefferybeam.com/ There is more news (and one new book) not on my website as it has not been updated in a while. Born 1953. Hope someone can step forward from your group to add content about my life and work to Wikipedia. Jeffbeam (talk) 22:18, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    See WP:PROUD. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 22:59, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Jeffery. To have a Wikipedia article about you, there must exist reliable and independent sources which provide significant, in-depth discussion of you or your work (see the WP:General notability guideline and WP:Notability (people) for the project's exact policy). Unfortunately, most people, even most published authors do not meet Wikipedia's definition of notability. If you're aware of reliable sources independent from yourself that would be useful for writing a biography about you, please list them. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 23:37, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To follow on from Roxy, I would suggest providing at least four independent, reliable sources (not primary or self-published sources) which discuss you and your work in depth. Lewisguile (talk) 07:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Five could be better if possible. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:49, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: split off the history sections Gay literature and Lesbian literature pages into one page

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    ( It was suggested to be taken here when I asked in the Teahouse, as it involves splitting multiple articles to create a third. If it's the wrong place, blame them, not me. I'm just a newbie trying to help and not make mistakes)

    I propose that we split the history aspects of Gay literature and Lesbian literature into their own third article: History of Gay and Lesbian literature (1), or separate articles History of Gay Literature and History of Lesbian literature (2). --Lover of lgbt literature (talk) 10:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support 1 and 2 with equal preference, as proposer, because the history aspect of the topics currently dominates both articles and can easily stand on their own, and I think splitting them off will allow other aspects of both topics to have some breathing room. I excluded Bisexual literature and Transgender literature, as their history section are small enough not to dominate their articles. I know it took me a while to get here from the teahouse, but things happened, and I forgot until now.--Lover of lgbt literature (talk) 10:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Lesbian literature history is focused on the lesbian subject and should remain independent from the history of Gay male literature. And creating a stand-alone article titled "History of Lesbian literature" as an addition to the existing Lesbian literature article (which is historical) is senseless. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 11:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose for now. Gay literature has about 6.2K readable words and Lesbian literature has about 4.6K readable words. Neither is overly long at this point and both of them cover a lot of history. Moving history to one or two new pages would fragment the info and make all of them rather short. A better idea would be to wait and see if any particular section gets overly long, and then spin that off into its own section if needed. But that seems a distant issue for now. Lewisguile (talk) 12:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Cass Review page in need of consensus

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    Morning all,

    I suspect it's still too soon after Christmas to get many people involved right now, but there are some ongoing discussions over at Cass Review which could benefit from more input. At the moment there are just a small handful of us discussing, so it tends to be one-on-one discussions, and then any emerging consensus gets overwritten as soon as the new one-to-one discussion starts. There have also been some overlapping edits made around the same time which have resulted in accidental restoration of text which no one was happy with, thus making the article worse than it would have been. Some extra eyes on this might help.

    Key discussions:

    • Background: How much do we need to include about the history of GIDS here?
    • Methodology: How much space should be given over to the systematic reviews versus other forms of evidence included, and the nature of synthesis itself?
    • What counts as valid evidence per MEDRS – e.g., is the systematic review by RAND Health & Wellbeing valid, and does it matter that the Cass Review itself wasn't peer reviewed if the systematic reviews were?
    • Should the responses of gender critical groups be removed or should they stay in the responses section?

    There's probably more, but those are off the top of my head. I reckon we can get some quick consensus so I've held off on doing a formal RfC for that reason. I think it's more a problem of few editors engaging right now, rather than one of intractable disagreement. Lewisguile (talk) 09:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The Vivienne

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    British drag performer The Vivienne has died. Article improvements welcome. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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