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Damjan Gruev

Hello there fellow wiki editor @Jingiby I would like to discuss the topic of Dame Gruev's ethnicity. In the article he is cited to be a Bulgarian teacher, although he was a teacher in the Bulgarian Exarchate but i found sources were he identifies himself with the Macedonian identity/ Macedonian Bulgarian. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 12:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the Bulgarian Exarchate was the official national institution and the Orthodox Church of the Bulgarian people in the Ottoman empire. Its members identified with the ethno-religious and linguistic community of the Bulgarian millet. It owned separate schools, hospitals, churches and formed local Bulgarian communities, that issued magazines, newspapers, shoolbooks, etc., only in Bulgarian standard language. These institutions were located only in the Bulgarian quarters of the towns. There were then neither Macedonian church, standard language, separate quarters or distinct communities, nor hospitals, bookstores, magazines, newspapers, etc., in the Ottoman empire. The designation Macedonian had different meanings than modern-day ones. Macedonians then were called and called themselves the Aromanians, who till today, especially these in North Macedonia, do not have a distinct term and still designate as Bulgarians their neighbours, the ethnic Macedonians. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 13:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What are the sources? Perhaps one can still find use of them for something. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sources about what issue exactly? Jingiby (talk) 13:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. My question was addressed to Macodudewasalreadytaken?. Gruev's article could use more sources. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not to forget, that the founders of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, among whom was Gruev himself, wrote in its first statute that members of it could be only Bulgarians. Jingiby (talk) 15:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I did not say anything about his ethnicity. I was just wondering if the sources the editor presumably has could still have some biographical value and be used to support unsourced content. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

User:Macodudewasalreadytaken? was blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of User:Gurther. Jingiby (talk) 08:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch. It did not surprise me one bit. StephenMacky1 (talk) 08:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Third Opinion: Use of Portraits in Ivan Asen II Article

Hello,

I’m seeking a Third Opinion regarding the use of two 19th-century portraits in the article on Ivan Asen II. The two portraits are:

1. Zograf Monastery portrait (1817) (File:G danchov ivan asen.jpg)

2. G. Danchoff’s depiction (File:Ivan-asen-II-zograf-portrait.jpg)

The main question is whether either portrait is suitable for the infobox, considering they are Romanticized later depictions of the ruler who lived centuries earlier. A similar case can be found in the article for Simeon I of Bulgaria, where a modern-era statue is used in the infobox despite its temporal distance.

Proposals under discussion:

1. Use the Zograf Monastery portrait in the infobox due to its historical context.

2. Place the Danchoff portrait in the “Legacy” section for additional context.

Feedback or suggestions on the appropriateness of these portraits would be greatly appreciated.

You can find the discussion on Talk Page @ Talk:Ivan Asen II Nikolay.rusev (talk) 17:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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-== Vandalism of Christianity ==
+{{refbegin}}
-Hi. There is vandalism of the Christian articles done by you. Please do not try to make to describe all Macedonian Saints as Bulgarian.
-There is not place for bulgarian chauvinism in wikipedia. Wikipedia is not not a bulgarian propaganda book written by Bozidar Dimitrov.
-All the time you are posting some unreliable reference from bulgarian nationalist authors, which you have never read. You are just posting them because you find the word 'bulgarian' in them, taking it out of context. Tell me what is the purpose of putting the map of Bulgaria in the article of Saint Naum? Or why you start the article with translation on His name on bulgarian? You can not manipulate on wikipedia.
-Tell me only only one source where Saint Naum called himself 'bulgarian'? But you even changed his name in the wikipedia article! You do not know what is Holly, even you vandalize the Christianity!
+'''Reminders'''
-If you continue with your vandalism on everything connected with Macedonian history, I will need to report you to the administration.
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-== Aromanians ==
+*To opt out of future mailings, please remove yourself [[Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Reviewers/Newsletter list|here]].
+{{refend}}
-You support your opinion about Balkan people on a Sultan's firman? Is sultan ethnologist or sociologist?
-If we accept (I say "if") sultan's firman as a sociology study(!), we should mention the following:
-Vlachs are the today Romanians.
-Aromanians is a different tribe far away from the Romanian lands, with a different ethnic backround, different origin and different customs. The only connection with the Vlachs (today's Romanians) is that their languages come from Latin (separated from latin laguage in different centuries and with individual differencies). In 1905 Romanian Foreign Policy and Propaganda tried to usurp Aromanians in order to extend their influence in Southern Balkans. After 2 decades of propaganda, money spended and pressoures to the Ottoman government (supported also by Austrungaria) for that scope, Ottoman Administration recognized the Aromanians, not as an individual nation, but as part of the Great Vlach (Romanian) nation and allowed them to have the Romanian school and church system.
-So, this firman, is just a proof that Aromanians are connected with the Greeks, since Ottomans tried unsuccessfully, to put them under Romanian control, during the Macedonian struggle. Additionally I would like to mention that Aromanians declare to be Greeks in 99% percentage for the last two centuries (that we have data). And another thing: from the 18th century Aromanians used to consist Greco-Roman Associations in central Europe as immigrants, because the believed in common nationality.
-According to the above, I correct the article. [[User:Pyraechmes]] Chrusts
-== Ask first, write next ==
-[[Ural-Altaic race]] was redirected to the [[Turanid race]]. On the other hand, you at least need to read the article which you trying to change. According to article ''..."Turanid race" that included the Uralic and Altaic speaking peoples more generally'' and this is a sourced information(source 4). And, Altaic Japanese've established Turanist organisations. You can look at [[Turanian Society]] to see it. Therefore, I can easily add the Japanese to ''See also'' part of the article and also I can add the ''...or Ural-Altaic race'' to the article. Wikipedia is not ur blog!  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.174.135.252|212.174.135.252]] ([[User talk:212.174.135.252|talk]]) 09:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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-*<nowiki>и Възраждане, том 2, Георги Бакалов, TRUD Publishers, 2004, ISBN 9545284676, стр. 23. (Bg.)</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki></ref> During the late 18th century, the Enlightenment in Western Europe provided influence for the</nowiki>
-*<nowiki>Greeks]]".<ref>Nationality on the Balkans. The case of the Macedonians, by F. A. K. Yasamee. </nowiki>{{red|'''&#40;'''}}<nowiki>Balkans: A Mirror of the New World Order, Istanbul: EREN, 1995; pp. 121-132.</ref> In the [[</nowiki>
-Thanks, <!-- (0, -1, 0, 0) --><!-- User:BracketBot/inform -->[[User:BracketBot|BracketBot]] ([[User talk:BracketBot|talk]]) 09:17, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
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-*<nowiki>и Възраждане, том 2, Георги Бакалов, TRUD Publishers, 2004, ISBN 9545284676, стр. 23. (Bg.)</nowiki>{{red|'''&#93;'''}}<nowiki></ref></nowiki>
-*<nowiki>"<ref>{{cite book|last=Stillman|first=Norman A|title=Myth, Countermyth, and Distortion}}</ref> </nowiki>{{red|'''&#62;'''}}<nowiki> That is not to say that the Jews weren't persecuted during this time and that as the Empire</nowiki>
-*<nowiki>>F.O. 424/70, No. 134/I zikr., Bilal N. ªimsir, British Documents on Ottoman Armenians 1856–1880</nowiki>{{red|'''&#41;'''}}<nowiki>, Vol. I, Ankara 19R2, p. 173. Document No. 69.</ref></nowiki>
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-==Disambiguation link notification for December 5==
-Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited [[Bulgarian Millet]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Serbian]] ([[tools:~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Bulgarian_Millet|check to confirm]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[tools:~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Bulgarian_Millet|fix with Dab solver]]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].</small>
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-== Millet (Ottoman Empire) ==
+== Damjan Gruev ==
-I see that you have recently been involved in an [[WP:EW|edit war]] at [[Millet (Ottoman Empire)]]. Please note that one is not exempt from the edit warring policy because one believes one 's edits are right, and that edit warring can lead to being blocked from editing. [[User:JamesBWatson|JamesBWatson]] ([[User talk:JamesBWatson|talk]]) 09:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
+Hello there fellow wiki editor @[[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] I would like to discuss the topic of Dame Gruev's ethnicity. In the article he is cited to be a [[Bulgarians|Bulgarian]] teacher, although he was a teacher in the [[Bulgarian Exarchate]] but i found sources were he identifies himself with the Macedonian identity/ [[Macedonian Bulgarians|Macedonian Bulgarian]].  [[User:Macodudewasalreadytaken?|Macodudewasalreadytaken?]] ([[User talk:Macodudewasalreadytaken?|talk]]) 12:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
-:OK, then. I have asked for help on [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard]]. Thank you.[[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 12:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
+:Hi, the [[Bulgarian Exarchate]] was the official national institution and the Orthodox Church of the [[Bulgarian people]] in the Ottoman empire. Its members identified with the ethno-religious and linguistic community of the [[Bulgarian millet]]. It owned separate schools, hospitals, churches and formed local Bulgarian communities, that issued magazines, newspapers, shoolbooks, etc., only in Bulgarian standard language. These institutions were located only in the Bulgarian quarters of the towns. There were then neither Macedonian church, standard language, separate quarters or distinct communities, nor hospitals, bookstores, magazines, newspapers, etc., in the Ottoman empire. The designation Macedonian had different meanings than modern-day ones. Macedonians then were called and called themselves the Aromanians, who till today, especially these in North Macedonia, do not have a distinct term and still designate as ''Bulgarians'' their neighbours, the ethnic Macedonians. Thanks. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 13:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
+::What are the sources? Perhaps one can still find use of them for something. [[User:StephenMacky1|StephenMacky1]] ([[User talk:StephenMacky1|talk]]) 13:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
+:::Sources about what issue exactly? [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 13:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
+::::My mistake. My question was addressed to [[User:Macodudewasalreadytaken?|Macodudewasalreadytaken?]]. Gruev's article could use more sources. [[User:StephenMacky1|StephenMacky1]] ([[User talk:StephenMacky1|talk]]) 14:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
+:::::Not to forget, that the founders of the [[Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization]], among whom was Gruev himself, wrote in its first statute that members of it could be only Bulgarians. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 15:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
+::::::I did not say anything about his ethnicity. I was just wondering if the sources the editor presumably has could still have some biographical value and be used to support unsourced content. [[User:StephenMacky1|StephenMacky1]] ([[User talk:StephenMacky1|talk]]) 16:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
+::::::: [[User:Macodudewasalreadytaken?]] was blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of [[User:Gurther]]. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 08:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
+::::::::Good catch. It did not surprise me one bit. [[User:StephenMacky1|StephenMacky1]] ([[User talk:StephenMacky1|talk]]) 08:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
+== Request for Third Opinion: Use of Portraits in Ivan Asen II Article ==
-*[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] it's useless, fantasy is more important than fact.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/46.193.1.177|46.193.1.177]] ([[User talk:46.193.1.177|talk]]) 12:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+Hello,
-Since the IP editor has continued edit warring after being warned, I have blocked the IP address for 48 hours. [[User:JamesBWatson|JamesBWatson]] ([[User talk:JamesBWatson|talk]]) 14:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
-::I hope, this was a wise decision. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 14:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
+I’m seeking a Third Opinion regarding the use of two 19th-century portraits in the article on Ivan Asen II. The two portraits are:
-:::Fortunately, this ip madness has been fixed. Thanks Jing.[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 21:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
+.	Zograf Monastery portrait (1817) (File:G danchov ivan asen.jpg)
-==Discussion open at [[WP:DRN]]==
-Please participate when you have time.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style= "color:#090;"><i>Keithbob</i></b>]] • [[User_ talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#075;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 19:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
+.	G. Danchoff’s depiction (File:Ivan-asen-II-zograf-portrait.jpg)
-== Mixture ==
+The main question is whether either portrait is suitable for the infobox, considering they are Romanticized later depictions of the ruler who lived centuries earlier. A similar case can be found in the article for Simeon I of Bulgaria, where a modern-era statue is used in the infobox despite its temporal distance.
-Of course there were. The Romans practiced a lot of measure re-settlement. Actually Sarmatians ''were'' settled in Macedonia also, some of those "300, 000) (not doubt exaggerated figure by the Romans) Limigantes redistrubuted throughtout Moesia Inferior, Dacia Ripensis and Macedonia; there were also "Goths", possibly Cumans (-> Cumanovo), and even a group of Magyars ! There were Kuvars people also. Don't think there were any Pechenges, they all went to NE Bulgaria and around Belgrade. (see Curta).  Unfortunately , there were no Celts. They raided, but not settled in Macedonia. They settled around Belgrade (Scrodisci) and Bulgaria (Tylis, etc) [[User:Slovenski Volk|Slovenski Volk]] ([[User talk:Slovenski Volk|talk]]) 23:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
-::For now, I have amended it slightly to what we have references for. If you can find references for Kumans that would be great !  I couldnt find it in Curta's paper. [[User:Slovenski Volk|Slovenski Volk]] ([[User talk:Slovenski Volk|talk]]) 00:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
-::: The Historical dictionary of Republic of Macedonia mentiones Pechenegs' as Turkic settlers in Byzantine Macedonia, together with Kumans and Vardariots during 11-12th century. However, Curta  wrote: ''It has been noted that the earliest Pecheneg raids into the Balkans shifted from west (1027) to east (1036), in order to spare provinces that had been attacked in previous years. The reason for this shift in raiding appears to be that the regions of western Bulgaria, Serbia, and Macedonia were less fortifed.'' [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 16:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
-::::Hi I replied on my TP [[User:Slovenski Volk|Slovenski Volk]] ([[User talk:Slovenski Volk|talk]]) 02:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
-::::Oh, and as for the Pechenegs - yes they raided Macedonia, but they were not settled there. Only around Belgrade and NE Bulgaria. Raiding is different from settlement. The aim of raiding is raping and pillaging. Settlement was only ever done with Roman permission - federates or defeated, pacified and Christianized/ Romanizsed enemies - eg Getae, Sarmatians, Carpi, etc were all defeated groups, not groups which forced their way in. Becuase a raiding group can go all the way to Greece, camp the winter there, but ultimately can never settle becuase the Romans would always eventually 'catch up with them'. Even with the Slavs/ Avars, the emerging evidence suggests that, yes they raided, but did not settle till later. it appears that the Byzantines tactically withdrew much of the population of the Balkans further south. ''Then'' the Slavs settled (? were allowed to settle) by Phocas or Heraclius. The problem is the sources are silent on this matter, becuase the Byzantine historians of the 8th/ 9th century disliked those Emperors. [[User:Slovenski Volk|Slovenski Volk]] ([[User talk:Slovenski Volk|talk]]) 08:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
+Proposals under discussion:
-==Disambiguation link notification for December 25==
+.	Use the Zograf Monastery portrait in the infobox due to its historical context.
-Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Byzantines]] ([[tools:~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29|check to confirm]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[tools:~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29|fix with Dab solver]]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].</small>
+.	Place the Danchoff portrait in the “Legacy” section for additional context.
-It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these [[User:DPL bot|opt-out instructions]]. Thanks, [[User:DPL bot|DPL bot]] ([[User talk:DPL bot|talk]]) 08:55, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
+Feedback or suggestions on the appropriateness of these portraits would be greatly appreciated.
-== @Rv. Not an improvement. ==
+You can find the discussion on Talk Page @ [[Talk:Ivan Asen II]] [[User:Nikolay.rusev|Nikolay.rusev]] ([[User talk:Nikolay.rusev|talk]]) 17:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
-By improvement it hasn't meant only rewording, but also putting stats, references and general description. Do you understand now what I've meant? Don't go into verbal war with me. Have a nice day. [[User:AirWolf|AirWolf]] ([[User talk:AirWolf|talk]]) 14:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
-:Sorry, I have written this in affect. Thought you've meant my edits. Bye.
-::Don't worry. However my edits didn'n change nothing you have edited. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby#top|talk]]) 14:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)