Jump to content

Talk:Perchlorate: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Kohw (talk | contribs)
109 edits
m Archiving 6 discussion(s) to Talk:Perchlorate/Archive 1) (bot
 
(39 intermediate revisions by 18 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{Chemicals|class=Start|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject banner shell |class=B |vital=yes |1=

{{WikiProject Chemicals|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Environment|importance=High}}
}}
{{ course assignment | course = Education Program:Boston College/Environmental Disruptors of Development (Spring 2014) | term = 2013 Q3 }}
{{ course assignment | course = Education Program:Boston College/Environmental Disruptors of Development (Spring 2014) | term = 2013 Q3 }}
{{Copied |from=Perchlorate |from_oldid=1074105302 |to=Chlorine |date=1 March 2022 |afd= |merge= |diff= |to_diff=1074736950 |to_oldid= }}
== March 2005 ==
{{User:MiszaBot/config
'''Interesting and disturbing update - see article in the New Jersey Star Ledger - March 10, 2005.'''
|algo = old(90d)

|archive = Talk:Perchlorate/Archive %(counter)d
[[http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-20/1110436255276370.xml]]
|counter = 1

|maxarchivesize = 150K
--[[User:Kjdmsi|Kjdmsi]] 19:50, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)kjdmsi
|archiveheader = {{tan}}

|minthreadstoarchive = 1
I feel as if the "health effects" section is written as if it is a refutation of people with concerns over the health effects of perchlorate, rather than an explanation of the health effects. Neutrality concern? For now, I would like to see more citations.
|minthreadsleft = 2

}}
[[User:Nleamy|Nleamy]] 15:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs to be updated, because there are a lot of concerns, MA, & CA have their regulations spelled out, and EPA may come up something soon - see the reference below.
http://www.kvue.com/news/top/stories/042607kvuedefenders-bkm.103abb48.html

== mars ==

So what if perchlorate is found on Mars? What's the big deal? [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] ([[User talk:Kingturtle|talk]]) 14:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It's used in rocket fuel... it means people will only have to bring fuel for the journey there, not back. it also means that it will be a lot easier to colonize mars, apparantly. -Savannah <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/78.32.69.137|78.32.69.137]] ([[User talk:78.32.69.137|talk]]) 14:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Should this be included in the discussion in the article? [[User:Hendo1769|Hendo1769]] ([[User talk:Hendo1769|talk]]) 20:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::Definitely. The article needs to tell us why it is important. [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] ([[User talk:Kingturtle|talk]]) 05:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Newspapers are making a deal of it being "toxic", meaninng that it poses a risk to potential human visits there. --[[User:MoRsE|MoRsE]] ([[User talk:MoRsE|talk]]) 06:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I also read on www.bbcnews.com today that perchlorates somehow are indicators of past or present life. Does anyone know how? And if so can that be incorporated into the article?

Thanks!
[[Special:Contributions/66.227.84.101|66.227.84.101]] ([[User talk:66.227.84.101|talk]]) 02:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


== PEPCON ==
== PEPCON ==
Line 36: Line 20:
I rm "several disasters"; no source for that. I don't doubt there have been others and when I see a cite, I'll entertain a mention. Also general cleanup of the [[PEPCON]] mention.
I rm "several disasters"; no source for that. I don't doubt there have been others and when I see a cite, I'll entertain a mention. Also general cleanup of the [[PEPCON]] mention.


== perchlorate reduction potential ==
==Fe(II) perchlorate?==
{{ping|Shinkolobwe}}. I am trying to figure out the recent emphasis on ferrous perchlorate. Are we trying to teach readers how to use the Nernst equation to predict stabilities? Seems like [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NOTTEXTBOOK]]. Is there some aspect of ferrous perchlorate that is notable? The kinetic inertness of perchlorate as an oxidant is an old and well investigated story. I do not recall any problems or even interesting results with ferrous perchlorate. WebElements is a poor source of information. --[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]] ([[User talk:Smokefoot|talk]]) 12:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

according to my edition of cotton and wilkinson (5th ed, Wiley see page 564) reduction of perchlorate to chloride occurs with the LOWEST potential of all the oxyanions.

Without a reference, I deem the statement "Perchlorate does in fact have the highest redox potential..." to be dubious.

In theory, perchlorate SHOULD exhibit the highest reduction potential. It apparently does not which also coincides with its kinetic stability. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/38.118.77.19|38.118.77.19]] ([[User talk:38.118.77.19|talk]]) 13:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I am just going to add the appropriate information, in table format and cite the textbook. This is a popular, but untrue, misconception (that perchlorate is a stronger oxidant than chlorate, chlorite, or hypochlorite). <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Budzicho|Budzicho]] ([[User talk:Budzicho|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Budzicho|contribs]]) 13:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Extending Page Proposals ==

Hi,
<br>

My classmates ([[User:kimaox|kimaox]] & [[User:Abecks1717|Abecks1717]]) and I are planning to extend this perchlorate page for our class project. Thank you for your future interests on our edits and the page!
<br>

Our proposals for extension of the page includes: 1) extending on health effects of perchlorate, 2) addressing clean up issues, and 3) addressing contamination issues.
In specific, our sources addresses many issues and information for our proposal topics.
<br>
<br>
- '''Sources''' -
<br>

1) "Health effects''
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23566323 Pulmonary fibrosis effect of ammonium perchlorate exposure in rabbit] -- This article describes adverse health effects that were present in rabbits after treatment with ammonium perchlorate.
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23535361 Evaluation of perturbations in serum thyroid hormones during human pregnancy due to dietary iodide and perchlorate exposure using a biologically based dose-response model] -- This article talks about the levels of perchlorate intake that is necessary to effect thyroid function in pregnant mothers (late term).
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23433158 Health survey of plant workers for an occupational exposure to ammonium perchlorate] -- The effects of ammonium perchlorate exposure in a large sample of farmers.
<br>

[http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6128/38.full Breathing Perchlorate] -- Very good outline of perchlorate with a lot of other sources listed within the article.
<br>

2) "Clean up issues"
<br>

[http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-05-1011R ENVIRONMENTAL CLEANUP: Transfer of Contaminated Federal Property and Recovery of Cleanup Costs] -- This report is about liability and financial responsibility related to perchlorate cleanup, where perchlorate cleanup liability is currently the subject of process of taking legal action between the private properties such as Kerr-McGee Corporation and the United States. However, responsibility issues are still under debate and consideration (case is in pretrial stage). It also talks about laws that affect contaminated federal property transfer to private parties.
<br>

[http://www.epa.gov/fedfac/pdf/technical_fact_sheet_perchlorate.pdf Technical Fact Sheet- Perchlorate] -- This article talks about which technologies are currently being utilized to treat perchlorate, including in situ and ex situ treatment.
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15473090 U.S. Department of Defense and White House working together to avoid cleanup and liability for perchlorate pollution.] -- This article talks about how U.S. government is trying not to take responsibility in perchlorate cleanup due to extremely high costs. It also talks about how cleanup is a serious and immediate issue to take care of due to water contamination.
<br>

[http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/1/e00769-13.abstract Transposon and Deletion Mutagenesis of Genes Involved in Perchlorate Reduction in Azospira suillum PS] -- This article is about genes in bacteria (Azoxpira suillum PS) that are involved in perchlorate metabolism, which can be possible tools in perchlorate cleanup. However, not much is known about biochemistry and genetics process of perchlorate metabolism.
<br>

[http://www.organicconsumers.org/perchlorate.cfm PERCHLORATE Q & A] -- This article mentions that there is a possiblity that Department of Defense and NASA pressured the National Academy of Sciences to create weaker recommendations on allowable perchlorate levels. Thus, deep research is going on to address this issue. Also, this article implies that clean up issues, such as decisions on which side to take responsibility, should be addressed quickly.
<br>

3) Contamination
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12094532 Perchlorate as an environmental contaminant] -- This article is about the environmental occurrence, toxicity, analytical chemistry, and remediative approaches are discussed.
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21242067 Dissimilatory perchlorate reduction: a review.] -- This article also talks about the contamination levels of perchlorate of the surface and ground water and the affected regions.
<br>

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24188192 Perchlorate trophic transfer increases tissue concentrations above ambient water exposure alone in a predatory fish.] -- This article examined effects of varying concentrations of the environmental contaminant perchlorate in northern pike based on exposure in water and/or from prey.
<br>


:@[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]]: I understand your remarks and your deletion edition of a too long development I have made on the stability of {{Chem2|Fe(2+)}} in solution in which perchlorate is added as a background electrolyte. Even, if it is a question resolved since a long time, I would appreciate to find here the explanation based on accessible sources. I was to the point to publicly ask the question here on the discussion page, but you have reacted before I had the time to do it. Ferrous perchlorate is certainly not a notable compound, but the fact that one can use without problem perchlorate as a background electrolyte to study the solubility of various {{Chem2|Fe(2+)}} compounds is certainly worth it. My aim, here, was not to add original developments, nor textbook explanations to this page, but to help to provide understandable explanations to a not so trivial question which can still puzzle many persons in the lab with different background and nobody knowing a good and convincing explanation, except a vague kinetics reason. So, if you could help, at least providing good and accessible sources, it would be highly appreciated and I think many readers will be grateful. In advance, thank you for your support if you wish to contribute to better explain this question. With kind regards, [[User:Shinkolobwe|Shinkolobwe]] ([[User talk:Shinkolobwe|talk]]) 13:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15376530 Development of freshwater water-quality criteria for perchlorate] -- This article also talks about the perchlorate contamination levels in water in the United States and its impact on ecological health risk. Kohw 22:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::{{ping|Shinkolobwe}} We are not in the explaining business. We present facts. We avoid explanations or "helping people understand".
::If you want good sources, get textbooks on inorganic chemistry. Some are on-line. Greenwood and Earnshaw's Chemistry of the Elements gives an overview of descriptive and applications. It seems that each editor in this sphere has their favorite - Housecroft has one popular textbook. Shriver and Atkins are lead authors on another.
::Lots of old inorganic chemists (like Nobelist Taube), even before my times, wrestled with perchlorate reduction. The problem seems to be that the usual reductants (ferrous, chromous) do not like to make oxo's from the breakup of M-O-ClO3. Re and Mo are fine with making {{chem2|M\tO}}, so they work fine. Feel free to ask questions. --[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]] ([[User talk:Smokefoot|talk]]) 13:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]]: Thank you for your rapid answer and the references. In the meantime, I also looked at Cotton and Wilkinson (1999). ''Advanced Inorganic Chemistry''. 6th ed, Wiley, see page 581 for perchlorate. The redox inertness of perchlorate is mentioned there as a fact, also supported by a table with standard redox potentials, but I could not find any explanations, or reasons, dealing with the kinetics limitations of the ferrous ions oxidation by the perchlorate anions. Thanks for your hint about the possible reaction mechanism. Best regards, [[User:Shinkolobwe|Shinkolobwe]] ([[User talk:Shinkolobwe|talk]]) 14:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:37, 22 August 2024

PEPCON

[edit]

I rm "several disasters"; no source for that. I don't doubt there have been others and when I see a cite, I'll entertain a mention. Also general cleanup of the PEPCON mention.

Fe(II) perchlorate?

[edit]

@Shinkolobwe:. I am trying to figure out the recent emphasis on ferrous perchlorate. Are we trying to teach readers how to use the Nernst equation to predict stabilities? Seems like WP:OR and WP:NOTTEXTBOOK. Is there some aspect of ferrous perchlorate that is notable? The kinetic inertness of perchlorate as an oxidant is an old and well investigated story. I do not recall any problems or even interesting results with ferrous perchlorate. WebElements is a poor source of information. --Smokefoot (talk) 12:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smokefoot: I understand your remarks and your deletion edition of a too long development I have made on the stability of Fe2+ in solution in which perchlorate is added as a background electrolyte. Even, if it is a question resolved since a long time, I would appreciate to find here the explanation based on accessible sources. I was to the point to publicly ask the question here on the discussion page, but you have reacted before I had the time to do it. Ferrous perchlorate is certainly not a notable compound, but the fact that one can use without problem perchlorate as a background electrolyte to study the solubility of various Fe2+ compounds is certainly worth it. My aim, here, was not to add original developments, nor textbook explanations to this page, but to help to provide understandable explanations to a not so trivial question which can still puzzle many persons in the lab with different background and nobody knowing a good and convincing explanation, except a vague kinetics reason. So, if you could help, at least providing good and accessible sources, it would be highly appreciated and I think many readers will be grateful. In advance, thank you for your support if you wish to contribute to better explain this question. With kind regards, Shinkolobwe (talk) 13:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Shinkolobwe: We are not in the explaining business. We present facts. We avoid explanations or "helping people understand".
If you want good sources, get textbooks on inorganic chemistry. Some are on-line. Greenwood and Earnshaw's Chemistry of the Elements gives an overview of descriptive and applications. It seems that each editor in this sphere has their favorite - Housecroft has one popular textbook. Shriver and Atkins are lead authors on another.
Lots of old inorganic chemists (like Nobelist Taube), even before my times, wrestled with perchlorate reduction. The problem seems to be that the usual reductants (ferrous, chromous) do not like to make oxo's from the breakup of M-O-ClO3. Re and Mo are fine with making M≡O, so they work fine. Feel free to ask questions. --Smokefoot (talk) 13:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Smokefoot: Thank you for your rapid answer and the references. In the meantime, I also looked at Cotton and Wilkinson (1999). Advanced Inorganic Chemistry. 6th ed, Wiley, see page 581 for perchlorate. The redox inertness of perchlorate is mentioned there as a fact, also supported by a table with standard redox potentials, but I could not find any explanations, or reasons, dealing with the kinetics limitations of the ferrous ions oxidation by the perchlorate anions. Thanks for your hint about the possible reaction mechanism. Best regards, Shinkolobwe (talk) 14:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Perchlorate&oldid=1241674256"