Talk:Joehana/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Curly Turkey (talk · contribs) 23:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to disagree with anything—some of it's merely me trying to force my own preferences and prejudices on others.

Prose

• What brand of English are you using? I see "towards" (predominantly Commonwealth), "humor" (US), "emphasised" & "characterisation" (Commonwealth, though not common in Canada).

• Commonwealth. Fixed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I think a lot of your "however"s could be dropped without losing anything.

• Dropped a few. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Lead

• Can we get IPA for his name?

• Birth name, pseudonym, or both? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • At least the pseudonym, but both would be great. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• for a time at the railroad: at a particular railroad?

• I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that the Dutch East Indies only had one railroad company, operated by the government. Maybe SatuSuro is more familiar with this. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• becoming an author c. 1923: Not an error or anything, but I'm a fan of prose that can be read aloud and save the "c."s for captions, taable entries, etc.

• By 1923. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• in social welfare which influenced his novels: a comma after "welfare", othrwise it's the "social welfare which influenced his novels" that he was interested in

• Reworked. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• He was also a productive translator, dramatist, and reporter, who operated a company which offered writing services: was it as a translator, dramatist, and reporter that he operated such a company? If not, then drop "who" and substitute "and" or something.

• Sure. Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• such as wayang and pantun are still evident: Are these literary styles, genres ...?

• Literary forms (well, as far as wayang can be considered drama, and drama can be considered literature... more oral literature than anything). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Biography

• If West Java is a province, why is it lowercase western Java here?

• I do not think it was a "province" during the colonial period. We can unlink if necessary. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Are "western Java" and "West Java" otherwise the same thing? Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:35, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Western Java would include Banten (which was once part of West Java, but is now its own province... not that affects Bandung, of course). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• and graduated from a Meer Uitgebreid Lager Onderwijs (equivalent to a junior high school) there: having "there" after the parentheses is awkward; you could stick it after "graduated".

• How's this?
  • Read both "and graduated from a Meer Uitgebreid Lager Onderwijs (equivalent to a junior high school) there" and "and graduated there from a Meer Uitgebreid Lager Onderwijs (equivalent to a junior high school)" out loud and hear the difference. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC) Sorry, I thought "How's this" meant "Whadaya mean?" Looks fine. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• He spent some time working: you could safely drop "some"

• Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• He was an active member of the Sarekat Rakya: the what?

• An organization of communist leanings (which Kartini et al. conveniently left out... though giving the political climate at the time, it's small wonder that they did... even now it'll be hard to find something neutral in Indonesian on the group). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • How about something like "of the political group"?
    • It sounds like a social welfare or social service group (among other things), similar to the Rotary Club, though they also ran schools and a few other things. Not political, per se, but influenced by the communist worldview (and some sources say supported/sponsored by the Communist Party of Indonesia). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• the couple had no children of their own: some would consider this insensistive; how about "had no biological children"?

• Fair enough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• operated by the Dutch colonial government: maybe link this?

• Dutch East Indies is already linked, I believe, and we don't have anything else. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• when the dangding: worthy of a redlink?

• Fair enough, I had redlinked it at Sierk Coolsma as well.00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Tjeurik Oma (Oma's Cry): or Tjeurik Oma ("Oma's Cry") to make it clear the translation is a translation, rather than part of the title?

• I've never done this for translations. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • If you don't do something, you risk the title looking something like "El Condor Pasa (If I Could)". Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
    • I've used this format in FAs such as Terang Boelan; I think this is one of those things you suggested to just ignore. As for your point, if it was like "El Condor Pasa" the parentheses would be in italics as well. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Oh, it's definitely not a requirement, I just think it's clearer—it marks translations unambiguously as such, and doesn't rely on readers to recognize whether a parenthesis is italicized or not (and sometimes parentheticals come across as remarks rather than translations, depending on just what the translation is). I'm not going to get worked up over it, just food for thought. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:18, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• However, sources disagree: you could safely drop the "however", especially since there's another one coming right up.

• Did that earlier. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Works

• Since all the works listed are in Sundanese, is there any point in stating so for each work?

• I'd rather list it, just to avoid having some entries which are nothing but the title (some do not have a translation as the title is a proper name, like Bambang Hendrasaputra). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Style

• the European concept of novels: meaning they took the form of European novels?

• Meaning novels themselves were considered a European form of literature (as were short stories and stage plays with scripts). Balinese literature (somewhat related, through Javanese literature) is hundred of years old, but the first work which can be called a novel (Nemoe Karma by I Wayan Gobiah) was only published in 1931. I am currently do not know what was the first Sundanese novel, but it was probably in the 1910s or so as schools and missionaries (like Coolsma) had long attempted to teach prose (a form rarely seen in Sundanese literature, which was primarily in verse) as a way to "modernize" the Sundanese. I can't think of a way to expand on this in-text without having a fairly detailed footnote. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, "concept of novels" could be read as "the way Europeans viewed novels"—it sounds like you mean the form itself, imported from Europe—maybe "embracing the novel, a European form"? Not the most elegant, but the wording should make it clear that it's not a European novel form vs. Indonesian novel form thing. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:58, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:03, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Unlike the more formal language: is there a distinction being made here between "formal" and "more formal"?

• Reworked. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Themes

• so blinded by their lust for lucre: nice turn of phrase, but is it "encyclopaedic"?

• Bleh. I knew that was going to come up. Let's try again. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• their wealth and societal position: not "positions"?

• I think "position" feels more correct there, but no worries... changed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Beware, never, forget, one's mind: is there a stray comma here?

• Yes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• large interest rates for a loan: many interest rates for a single loan?

• Que? Oh, changed to "high". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Legacy

• This began with the republication: "this" appears to point to "Joehana's use of non-formal Sundanese", rather than the academic interest I think you meant it to.

• Added "Renewal" — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Refs

• I can't actually check any of the references as none of them are in a language I understand, but I spotted no warning signs of inappropriate use.

• I know, there's very little on Joehana in English. Mikihiro Moriyama's Sundanese Print Culture & Modernity in 19th century West Java apparently has a bit, but the Google link gives me a 404 error. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• According to WordlCat, anyways, ISBN 978-979-8002-31-1 is in Sundanese. Shouldn't there be a "|language= Sundanese" in there? (and do you actually read all those languages—Indonesian, Malay, Sundanese?)

• Sundanese added, and OCLC 248133402 has had Indonesian added. I read Indonesian and (vernacular) Malay quite fluently, and can get by with Malaysian (which I've used in other articles). Sundanese... not so much. But, in this case, I had had a friend from Ciamis (a predominantly Sundanese area) translate Rasiah nu Goreng Patut (including it's introduction) into Indonesian for my master's thesis, so that I could refer to it. I used that, but made sure that the page numbers coincided with the Sundanese-language edition (I can make out enough to do that at least). I can put that in a hidden note, if necessary. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think there's any need for that. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• What language is OCLC 248133402 in?

Images

• All clear
• One FU image, apporopriately tagged
• Three other images, all of which have fallen into the PD, are on Commons, and are appropriately tagged

Misc

• The article appears thorough, comprehensive, and balanced, as far as I can tell without being able to examine the sources.

———Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Passed. I'm convinced that this article more than meets the requirements for Good Article status. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:30, 15 April 2014 (UTC)