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{{Talk header}}
==Content==
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|
This page needs expanding by someone more qualified than me.
{{WikiProject African diaspora|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject United Kingdom|importance=mid |attention=|needs-infobox=|needs-photo= No}}
{{WikiProject Ethnic groups|importance=mid}}
}}
{{Copied|from=Somalis in the United Kingdom|from_oldid=694470999|to=Black British|diff=https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Black_British&diff=696072419&oldid=696037665|date=19:02, 20 December 2015}}


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I'd suggest a bit on ''The Voice'', perhaps the riots in the 80s and modern British rap. [[User:FreeMorpheme|FreeMorpheme]] 19:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
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== Early 21st Century - Covid-19 Paragraph ==
:I hope this article will not be degenerating into a purely one-sided presentation of black british grievances. Although these are important, it is very important in an article of this kind to put forward all the alternative viewpoints involved. This will allow production of a balanced article with differing perspectives and analysis, which is the intention of a Wikipedia article.
The paragraph on Covid-19 in the 'Early 21st Century' section routinely conflates BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnics) with black people. Much of the information cited refers to the generalised experience of people from non-white ethnicities during Covid-19 rather than the specific experience of Black British people. This is an article on Black British people, not on BAME people in the UK. [[User:Kioj156|Kioj156]] ([[User talk:Kioj156|talk]]) 22:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


== England (and Wales) versus UK ==
::You should sign your stuff if you're posting on a talk page, or people might not take you seriously. Of course, that still might be a danger. You deleted out the phrase ''unwilling visitors to the isles'' assuming it meant 'legitimate' slaves, and cite the Cartwright Decision as proof there were never slaves in Britain. (!) That decision was made before the colonies had even been discovered; as soon as the proto-Empire found out there were rich resources to be plundered any ethical niceties were completely abandoned. You can't deny Britain's involvement in the slave trade, and the notion that no slaves ever came here is laughable, as well as ignoring the evidence that there were plenty of slaves knocking about back then. A quick Google will provide that.
{{u|Kioj156}} and {{u|EmyRussell}}, thanks for your recent efforts to update and improve the [[Black British people#Social issues|Social issues]] section. However, I think we need to make it clearer in the text that many of the statistics and charts relate to either England or England and Wales only, not the whole of the UK. At present, figures for part of the UK are being presented as if they represent all Black British people in the UK, which is often not the case. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 07:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


:Agreed. These stats and charts need clarifying. If not clarified, then removed. [[User:Koppite1|Koppite1]] ([[User talk:Koppite1|talk]]) 22:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
::Anyway, I laud your attempts to provide a balanced view in the article, but I don't think you're quite as disinterested as you might like to be. What's all this 'most Britons', and 'many non-Blacks' stuff? Where's your evidence that most crime against Asians is perpetrated by blacks? If you've got it, great, throw it up here. If not... [[User:FreeMorpheme|FreeMorpheme]] 17:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


== ''however not all were Sub-Saharan African.'' ==
::Well, you never came back, so I've changed your stuff, removing the weasels and hopefully leaving it more balanced. It still needs a lot of additions, there is next to nothing on the actual culture the article references so much. I might tag it as such. Ciao. [[User:FreeMorpheme|FreeMorpheme]] 18:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone keeps removing this line from the Elizabethan section. I thought it was important to make a distinction as this is a page for black people. An article by the Guardian says two were North African and not black, so thought it should be shown, as black can't be used interchangeably with Moroccans, etc. [[User:Menacinghat|Menacinghat]] ([[User talk:Menacinghat|talk]]) 18:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


Article was about the Mary Rose and was linked as of this week [[User:Menacinghat|Menacinghat]] ([[User talk:Menacinghat|talk]]) 18:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Firstly, the notion that no slaves came to Britain is far from laughable. You can try to find an authoritative academic source to back your opinion.


== New image ==
:::Secondly, i did not say (a) most crime against Asians is perpertrated by Blacks, or (b) anything involving "most Britons". You should read more carefully.
Hello all, I added an image to this page as part of a short-term paid project to share images of a year of culture that was held in Leeds. There's more on the project [[Wikipedia:GLAM/LEEDS 2023|here]] and more images to make use of [[c:Category:Uploaded_by_Leeds_Culture_Trust|here]]. Many thanks [[User:Lajmmoore|Lajmmoore]] ([[User talk:Lajmmoore|talk]]) 10:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


== Racism in article? ==
:::Thirdly, i'm not sure what this not-so-disinterested stuff is about, but as long as the article is is adequately referenced and includes the relevant viewpoints, i am fine with it.
Hello, I am not an active editor or participant in talks or editing on this site, but in this article I saw mentions of anti-white genocide and I would like a second opinion on those parts of this article as it seems quite racist and conspiratorial. [[User:Night Thrasher|Night Thrasher]] ([[User talk:Night Thrasher|talk]]) 01:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

:That was indeed inappropriate content. It was added just a few hours ago, and I undid that set of edits. Thanks for reporting it! [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 03:49, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
==Link between Black and Asian==
It was my impression that [[British Asians]] were included along with Afro-Caribbean people in a politicized British conception of the word "Black" (e.g. [[Southall Black Sisters]]) in the 1970s-1980s (somewhat like the way South Asian Americans are part of the larger Asian American movement). This isn't addressed in the article. Any comments? --[[User:Anirvan|Anirvan]] 17:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:Personally I've never heard "black" used in this way, for Britain or for other countries. I think very few people would think of Asians of you said "Black British". But maybe others have heard it used like this? [[User:Wxyzzz|Wxyzzz]] 21:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This is certainly true pre-Scarman. Indeed [[Lord Scarman]] was very keen to break up solidarity between people of Asian and African descent, and in many ways followed policies of ethnicisation used in [[South Africa]].[[User:Harrypotter|Harrypotter]] 23:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:: I've certainly heard of so-called asians being called black - in fact i will be changing the [[Black people]] and other articles to reflect this - i think you are right Harry re: ethnicisation, i reckon that the UN policy of diferentiating between Arabs and African is similar. However the pan-African politics of groups like Ligali.net support that diferentiation - so a siference has to be made between family, tribe, village, race, nation and class. [[User:Paki.tv|Paki.tv]] 20:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

==Great Britain or UK? and ancestry==
There are several problems here . . .
1) We are not refering simply to people "in" Britain/UK, but in some way "of" Britain. Likewise it is a matter of ancestry not where they are from themselves.
2) Are Black people in Northern Ireland British. Certainly "British" people, or people witha "British" identity, or people with a protestant identity are called "Black" as a term of abuse, which seems to have little to do with Africa or Asia - (but it might be a projection of heathenism as a non-European quality . . .
So unless soemone is prepared to deal with this thorny issue let us leave it at Britain for now!!!![[User:Harrypotter|Harrypotter]] 17:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

:Indeed, there is also the old term "Black Irish" which refers simply to distinctively dark haired Irish people! So it is a minfield. --[[User:Zleitzen|Zleitzen]] 14:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

::I just added this info to the [[Black people]] debate page too
: The [[Runnymede Trust]] and [[Radical Statistics Group| Radical Statistics Race Group]], in the glossary to their joint book ''"Britain's Black Population" (London, 1980)'' define ''black'' as follows: '''"Generally used in this book to refer to the population of [[New Commonwealth]] countries and [[Pakistan]]i origin, that is the population born in New Commonwealth countries and Pakistan and their children born here. When used this term does not imply a cultural homogeneity among the various groups to which it refers. (This corresponds to the definition New Commonwealth and Pakistani origin used by [[Office of Population Censuses and Surveys]])."'''
In the introduction to the book, the editors [[Usha Prashar]] of the RT and [[Dave Drew]] of RSRG explain that:
'''"What immigrants from New Commonwealth and Pakistan (NCWP) and their children have in common is the material consequences and, in very many cases, the direct experience of [[discrimination]]. Discrimination, as the studies by [[Political and Economic Planning]] (PEP) have demonstrated, is based upon colour. Hence, the reference to Britain's black population. It can, of course, be argued that some immigrants and their children do not want to be labelled as <i>black</i>. That is not denied, but the defence of this terminology in this context lies with the fact that, irrespective of their own particular beliefs, experiences and the wide range of cultural variations, racism and racial discrimintation is a crucial determinant of their economic and social [[situation]]."'''
It may also interst you that the same glossary refers to ''race (racial group)'' as follows: '''"A term which was used in the late eighteenth and duruing the nineteenth century by scientists and public to refer to a supposedly biologically distinct section of <i>homo sapiens</i>. The scientific basis for such distinctions has now been discredited. However, the general popuilation continues to use the terms to refer to a group of persons who they identify as having different physical features from themselves. Because this usage has no scientific validity, the term is not used as a descriptive category in this book, except where usage by others requires."''' [[User:62.25.106.209|62.25.106.209]] 10:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

==South Asians==
Sure, white people have occasionally called Asians "black". But that is something that should not be expanded on in the opening paragraph of an article about Black British people. The citations provided each refer to racist applications of the term. By that reckoning, we should go to the [[British African Caribbean Community]] page (which I wrote) and write in the opening paragraph "British African Caribbeans are also referred to as ******"(add insult), that would be citable and true but wholly innappropriate to an encylopedia. Asians self describing as black was a feature of civil rights movements during the 70's and 80's - that is of note. Correct me if I'm wrong but people seem to be suggesting that the view of bigoted/ignorant people should be represented in equal measure. --[[User:Zleitzen|Zleitzen]] 15:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

:The citations do refer to abusive use, but that does not alter the fact that it was commonplace and remains familar. The citation is not for the ''abusive'' term, but for the use of black, and for the fact that this experience - in part - explains later self-identification. Also, it was commonplace from at least the mid-nineteenth century, as the reference to Salisbury (who is not trying to be abusive) indicates. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 16:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

::The fact that you need to refer to back to Salisbury is evidence that this issue is far too complex to be summarised in one opening sentence of this page. There are many descriptions of black people that were "commonplace and remain familar" - yet certainly do not warrant inclusion in this form. This is one of them. Explore it in a section within the main article. --[[User:Zleitzen|Zleitzen]] 16:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

:::Apart from mere assertion, I see no argument being made here. The summary is one sentence, and its truth is not even being disputed. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 16:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

::::Racial stereotypes or the opinions of people who lumped all dark skinned people together do not belong in an encyclopedic article about Blacks. That's like saying, oh Neo-Nazis commonly refer to black people as monkeys so lets go to the monkey article and mention blacks in the introduction. Paul, don't be absurd.--[[User:Editingoprah|Editingoprah]] 16:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

:::::My argument is clear. Do ''not'' refer to complex, highly charged and potentially offensive usages of words in one sentence of an introduction. It is very poor practice. And, as is clearly evident, unworkable. It should be removed and explored in full in the main body of an article.--[[User:Zleitzen|Zleitzen]] 16:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:10, 27 June 2024

Early 21st Century - Covid-19 Paragraph

[edit]

The paragraph on Covid-19 in the 'Early 21st Century' section routinely conflates BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnics) with black people. Much of the information cited refers to the generalised experience of people from non-white ethnicities during Covid-19 rather than the specific experience of Black British people. This is an article on Black British people, not on BAME people in the UK. Kioj156 (talk) 22:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

England (and Wales) versus UK

[edit]

Kioj156 and EmyRussell, thanks for your recent efforts to update and improve the Social issues section. However, I think we need to make it clearer in the text that many of the statistics and charts relate to either England or England and Wales only, not the whole of the UK. At present, figures for part of the UK are being presented as if they represent all Black British people in the UK, which is often not the case. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. These stats and charts need clarifying. If not clarified, then removed. Koppite1 (talk) 22:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

however not all were Sub-Saharan African.

[edit]

Someone keeps removing this line from the Elizabethan section. I thought it was important to make a distinction as this is a page for black people. An article by the Guardian says two were North African and not black, so thought it should be shown, as black can't be used interchangeably with Moroccans, etc. Menacinghat (talk) 18:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article was about the Mary Rose and was linked as of this week Menacinghat (talk) 18:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New image

[edit]

Hello all, I added an image to this page as part of a short-term paid project to share images of a year of culture that was held in Leeds. There's more on the project here and more images to make use of here. Many thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 10:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Racism in article?

[edit]

Hello, I am not an active editor or participant in talks or editing on this site, but in this article I saw mentions of anti-white genocide and I would like a second opinion on those parts of this article as it seems quite racist and conspiratorial. Night Thrasher (talk) 01:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was indeed inappropriate content. It was added just a few hours ago, and I undid that set of edits. Thanks for reporting it! DMacks (talk) 03:49, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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