Talk:Antonio López de Santa Anna: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Latest revision as of 17:48, 5 March 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Antonio López de Santa Anna article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 12 months

Mexico Top‑importance

	Mexico portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mexico, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Mexico on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MexicoWikipedia:WikiProject MexicoTemplate:WikiProject MexicoMexico
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Military / Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as High-importance).
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as High-importance).

United States: Old West / Texas Mid‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject American Old West (assessed as Mid-importance).
	Texas portal This article is supported by WikiProject Texas (assessed as Mid-importance).

Military history: Biography / North America / Napoleonic era

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	North American military history task force
	Napoleonic era task force (c. 1792 – 1815)

Politics Mid‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on April 22, 2005.

Santa Anna or López de Santa Anna?

¡Hola! In an edit on February 18, 2022, User:Bedivere took it upon himself to change every instance of "Santa Anna" in the article to "López de Santa Anna." He reiterated this in an edit on October 5, 2023, again changing every instance of "Santa Anna" in the article back to "López de Santa Anna." The reasoning, of course, is that in Spanish naming customs his full paternal surname is "López de Santa Anna." However, WAS that and IS that the person's common name? This is English Wikipedia, and in English-language sources, in Texas history sources, he is commonly referred to as just "Santa Anna." Furthermore, even in Spanish-speaking sources of the time, he is often referred to as just "Santa Anna." The best and standard biography of him in English is Will Fowler's Santa Anna of Mexico.^[1] It uses "Santa Anna" throughout. Just one example from a Mexican source, in a book from 1850, the title of the book is: Historia de México y del general Antonio Lopez de Santa-Anna.^[2] Okay, the full form. But on the very next page is an image of "General Santa-Anna." It pretty much uses "Santa-Anna" throughout, not "López de Santa Anna." Most sources I have seen (in a troll through Google Books), from the 1800s, in both Spanish and English, may use his full name from time to time, or the first time, but then typically use "Santa Anna" as the short form. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

References

^ Fowler, W. (2009). Santa Anna of Mexico. University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 978-0-8032-2638-8. Retrieved 2023-10-10.
^ * Navarro, J.S. (1850). Historia de Mexico y del general Antonio Lopez de Santa-Anna: Comprende los acontecimientos politicos que han tenido lugar en la Nacion, desde el ano de 1821 hasta 1848 (in Spanish). I. Cumplido. Retrieved 2023-10-10.

This article should use the standard form. This does not result from any animus against Spanish naming practices or history, but because, in English (and dare I say, in Spanish) it is the standard usage—it is his common name (see Wikipedia:COMMONNAME)—and it is the standard usage in secondary sources, etc. Best, TuckerResearch (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should note, too, that the Spanish language article for Santa Anna (Es:Antonio López de Santa Anna) uses "Santa Anna" far more often than "López de Santa Anna." TuckerResearch (talk) 18:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken the liberty of reducing most instances of "López de Santa Anna" to just "Santa Anna." The overzealous editor who added all the "López de"s even added them to historical quotations where they did not exist and the titles of citations! For shame! As stated above: (1) the man's common name, in English and Spanish, is "Santa Anna"; (2) pretty much all secondary source works call him, after first using his full name, "Santa Anna"; (3) even the Spanish-language Wikipedia uses "Santa Anna"; etc. Even his historical followers were called "santanistas," not "lopezistas." TuckerResearch (talk) 17:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Fowler, W. (2009). Santa Anna of Mexico. University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 978-0-8032-2638-8. Retrieved 2023-10-10.

[2] * Navarro, J.S. (1850). Historia de Mexico y del general Antonio Lopez de Santa-Anna: Comprende los acontecimientos politicos que han tenido lugar en la Nacion, desde el ano de 1821 hasta 1848 (in Spanish). I. Cumplido. Retrieved 2023-10-10.

[1]

[2]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{talkheader}}
-How can you write about Santa Anna without mentioning the Alamo and talking about his defeat at the hands of general Sam Houston? Also, he called himself the "Napolean of the West" and obviously modelled his uniforms and that of his soldiers on the Napoleanic tradition. Seems like it's lacking some important details.
+{{User:MiszaBot/config
+| algo                = old(360d)
+| archive             = Talk:Antonio López de Santa Anna/Archive %(counter)d
+| counter             = 1
+| maxarchivesize      = 300K
+| archiveheader       = {{Automatic archive navigator}}
+| minthreadstoarchive = 1
+| minthreadsleft      = 4
+}}
+{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=n|listas=Lopez De Santa Anna, Antonio|1=
+{{WikiProject Mexico|importance=Top}}
+{{WikiProject History|importance=Mid}}
+{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=High|politician-work-group=y|politician-priority=High}}
+{{WikiProject United States|importance=Mid|USOldwest=y|USOldwest-importance=Mid|TX=y|TX-importance=Mid}}
+{{WikiProject Military history|class=B
+<!-- B-Class 5-criteria checklist -->
+|b1 <!-- Referencing and citations --> =y
+|b2 <!-- Coverage and accuracy --> =y
+|b3 <!-- Structure --> =y
+|b4 <!-- Grammar and style --> =y
+|b5 <!-- Supporting materials --> =y
+|Biography=y|North-American=y|Napoleonic=y}}
+{{WikiProject Politics|importance=Mid}}
+}}
+{{OnThisDay|date1=2005-04-22|oldid1=16335159}}
+== Santa Anna or López de Santa Anna? ==
--------
+¡Hola!  In [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Antonio_L%C3%B3pez_de_Santa_Anna&diff=prev&oldid=1072682431 an edit on February 18, 2022], [[User:Bedivere]] took it upon himself to change every instance of "Santa Anna" in the article to "López de Santa Anna."  He reiterated this in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Antonio_L%C3%B3pez_de_Santa_Anna&diff=prev&oldid=1178823469 an edit on October 5, 2023], again changing every instance of "Santa Anna" in the article back to "López de Santa Anna."  The reasoning, of course, is that in [[Spanish naming customs]] his full paternal surname is "López de Santa Anna."  However, <u>WAS that and IS that the person's [[Wikipedia:COMMONNAME|common name]]</u>?  This is English Wikipedia, and in English-language sources, in Texas history sources, he is commonly referred to as just "Santa Anna."  Furthermore, <u>even in Spanish-speaking sources of the time, he is often referred to as just "Santa Anna."</u>  The best and standard biography of him in English is Will Fowler's ''Santa Anna of Mexico''.<ref>{{cite book | last=Fowler | first=W. | title=Santa Anna of Mexico | publisher=University of Nebraska Press | year=2009 | isbn=978-0-8032-2638-8 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QFszaXaypkoC | access-date=2023-10-10}}</ref>  It uses "Santa Anna" throughout.  Just one example from a Mexican source, in a book from 1850, [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historia_de_Mexico_y_del_general_Antonio/6Yvzd1yv6sEC?hl=en&gbpv=1 the title of the book] is: ''Historia de México y del general Antonio Lopez de Santa-Anna''.<ref>* {{cite book | last=Navarro | first=J.S. | title=Historia de Mexico y del general Antonio Lopez de Santa-Anna: Comprende los acontecimientos politicos que han tenido lugar en la Nacion, desde el ano de 1821 hasta 1848 | publisher=I. Cumplido | year=1850 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6Yvzd1yv6sEC | language=es | access-date=2023-10-10}}</ref>  Okay, the full form.  But on the very next page is [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historia_de_Mexico_y_del_general_Antonio/6Yvzd1yv6sEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PR2&printsec=frontcover an image of "General Santa-Anna."]  It pretty much uses "Santa-Anna" throughout, <u>not</u> "López de Santa Anna."  Most sources I have seen (in a troll through Google Books), from the 1800s, in both Spanish and English, may use his full name from time to time, or the first time, but then typically use "Santa Anna" as the short form. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
-I think more could be said in this article, but I'm probably not the best person to attempt it. Anyone?
+{{Reflist-talk}}
--------
+This article should use the standard form.  This does not result from any animus against Spanish naming practices or history, but because, in English (and dare I say, in Spanish) it is the standard usage—it is his common name (see [[Wikipedia:COMMONNAME]])—and it is the standard usage in secondary sources, etc.  Best, [[User:Tuckerresearch|TuckerResearch]] ([[User talk:Tuckerresearch|talk]]) 16:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
-[[Santa Anna]] is currently a redirect to [[Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna]], and info about "Anna also known as Saint Anne" is at [[Anna]]. I want to make Saint Anne info at [[Saint Anne]] and make [[Santa Anna]] a disambiguation page to the various meanings, but I'm waiting for a consensus on the [[Anna]]/[[Saint Anne]] move. See [[Talk:Anna]].
+:I should note, too, that the Spanish language article for Santa Anna ([[Es:Antonio López de Santa Anna]]) uses "Santa Anna" far more often than "López de Santa Anna." [[User:Tuckerresearch|TuckerResearch]] ([[User talk:Tuckerresearch|talk]]) 18:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
-------
+::I have taken the liberty of reducing most instances of "López de Santa Anna" to just "Santa Anna."  The overzealous editor who added all the "López de"s even added them to historical quotations where they did not exist and the titles of citations!  For shame!  As stated above: (1) the man's common name, in English and Spanish, is "Santa Anna"; (2) pretty much all secondary source works call him, after first using his full name, "Santa Anna"; (3) even the Spanish-language Wikipedia uses "Santa Anna"; etc.  Even his historical followers were called "santanistas," ''not'' "lopezistas." [[User:Tuckerresearch|TuckerResearch]] ([[User talk:Tuckerresearch|talk]]) 17:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
-Wow. Tremendous improvement on this article over the last 24 hours. I am impressed. Thanks to all.