Talk:The Chosen (TV series)

Article quality?

Does this page seem weird to anyone else? It seems like most of the content, while properly cited, is rather opinion based and not rooted in objectivity. VidAngel seems like a very sketchy website — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimsuibhne (talk • contribs) 04:10, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that the "sketchiness" of the VidAngel website has anything to do with the accuracy and relevance of the Wikipedia article. The article is comparable to other articles about TV film series. The sources are not all promotional. I think that "weird" is too subjective a term for retaining a critique of article quality. Gene B. Chase 15:23, 16 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneChase (talk • contribs)

Under the reviews there is both the critical and the audience response. According to the Wikipedia MoS of TV and Film, there should only be the critical response. "Do not include user ratings submitted to websites such as the Internet Movie Database, Metacritic, or Rotten Tomatoes (including its "Audience Says" feature), as they are vulnerable to vote stacking and demographic skew." I do not have permissions to change this article and it would be good if someone with permissions updated this article, thank you. CurrentlyResearching (talk) 11:53, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

That's one of those things where there is some inconsistency across Wikipedia. What you're referencing is MOS:FILM. This article is for a TV show and follows MOS:TV. While the opinion is similar, Rotten Tomatoes is not expressly forbidden: "Review aggregation websites such as Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic are citable for data pertaining to the ratio of positive to negative reviews" (MOS:TVRECEPTION). I'd be inclined to say leave it in at least for now. Butlerblog (talk) 13:34, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, I should have referenced MOS:TV, thank you. However, I still contend that the audience score should not be included. "This means that IMDb, TV.com, and similar websites that give "fan polls" are not reliable sources of information." The goal of the reviews are to only include the critic reviews, and never include the general audience reviews for the same reason as in the MOS:FILM. Such as the TV Series House, only the critic reviews are included. "It holds a Metacritic score of 77 out of 100, based on ten reviews, indicating "generally favorable reviews". It also holds a 100% approval rating on aggregate review website Rotten Tomatoes, with an average score of 8.1 based on nine collected reviews." (If you follow the reference on the House article, it will take you to the archived page showing 100% based on nine reviews, and those nine are critics) I do not mean to say that the use of Rotten Tomatoes is incorrect, indeed the "Season 1 has a 100 percent score on Rotten Tomatoes from eight reviews" element is done well, however the audience scores are not considered critical reviews and so should not be used as stated in on Wikipedia Review Aggregator essay "Index of usable sources: Editors can visit Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic to find film reviews that can then be used to illustrate critical reception. If a specific review is considered for inclusion, always ensure that it is a reliable source." CurrentlyResearching (talk) 15:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Doug_Weller has changed this and I believe this issue to be resolved.CurrentlyResearching (talk) 15:38, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

List of characters

Do other characters need to be recognized as Gwapong Chikoy states, or should we only list noteworthy roles of cast members? Many that Gwapong Chikoy are adding have an appearance at the start of one episode of the eight that have been aired. Their on-screen time is short over the approximately eight hours of the series, but they are recognizable characters (like Moses or Aaron Himelstein as the shepherd) while others appear briefly in several episodes (such as Zebedee) while others are clearly supporting cast (such as Mary, mother of Jesus, Quintus, Gaius, and Eden, Simon Peter's wife). Is there a logical cut-off or do we list all cast? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

other cast and characters should be take notice and recognized too.. not only just the main characters.. Gwapong Chikoy (talk) 06:10, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Gwapong Chikoy: I have reviewed a few other articles and you were correct in adding more characters. I suspect that "noteworthy roles" references the actors' roles, and is not a limitation on which characters should be included. In other words, if a character has a main role, and appears as an extra in another scene as another character, that need not be mentioned. Thank you for your effort in this and please accept my apologies. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz:I think we may need to revisit this and possibly seek a consensus. There have been a lot of characters added, many of which are minor roles. Additionally, the distinction between what constitutes a "Main" character versus "Supporting" or "Special" is (IMO) a bit muddled. Speaking in the general sense, we have Main characters listed here who appear in only a couple of episodes (many of the listed disciples), or even Yasmine Al-Bustami who appears in only a single episode. Yet other characters that are main roles in every episode of Season 1 (such as Nicodemus) are listed as supporting or other. For a TV series cast list, this does not make much sense. Most of these should be "Main" and many of the "Main" should be moved to another category (at least for now - who knows what Season 2 will bring?). Additionally, as a TV show, there are going to be a great many minor characters. Are we going to list every single actor? That's not really the standard for TV series articles, nor is it necessary when there is a link to the IMDB page that contains the entire cast list. Yet that seems to be the direction this is going. I have done some initial re-ordering based on billing, but left the disciples in the "Main" list. However I think that, at least at present, characters like Nicodemus should be listed in the main case and most of the disciples as supporting. Butlerblog (talk) 14:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Gwapong Chikoy: I have reverted your good faith edits as they do not improve the article's listing of cast members. You indicated on one edit that you're "arranged a lot of info which are more accurate," but that's not actually the case. You're placing cast members who appear in a single episode (such as Mary) into top billing of "Supporting and recurring" while moving characters such as Kirk B.R. Woller, Brandon Potter, and Lara Silva who all appear in 6 or more episodes into "Special participation." This doesn't make any sense. I get that in the sense of the character's importance to the actual Bible, Jesus and Mary receive top billing. But this is a TV series, not the Bible, and the cast listing should be treated accordingly. If you disagree with this categorization, please make the case here and let's all try to come to a consensus. (So far, this is still a compromise because a number of the characters listed as "Main" should not be, and a number of "Supporting" should be in "Main", but let's start from where it is now.) Butlerblog (talk) 18:26, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

There have been a lot of questionable changes here I agree. Most concerning for me is all of the to be announced entries but I agree that the distinction between the major an minor characters is blurred. I even watched as the consensus made earlier on the two actors playing Big James, and now a third for the "second season". Character order and other issues. I appreciate the caretaker aspects that Gwapong Chikoy offers, but do question some of the edits. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Butlerblog: Special participation is in fact giving those characters credit in their works yet won't appear in the upcoming seasons. Because it is a "MULTI-SEASON SHOW", it indicates that some of the people who appear briefly will become significant such as Ramah. If you are a true researcher of The Chosen, you'll know this. But most of the revisions and research are based and were done by myself, in fact you are the one who spread and placed the cast in a wrong place. First, regarding the people who portrayed younger counterparts of the characters, I put the episode where they appear in order to show their significance yet it also shows that they can still appear; second, Ramah will be significant in upcoming seasons for she will join the group in season 2 and Mary is also a supporting character, it is confirmed that Eden won't appear in the upcoming seasons same as through with Yussif, but Quintus and Gaius will likely appear in season 2 but a portray a less important role: concluding in the fact that some cast in season 1 won't be around in upcoming seasons, signifying that some are in the category of special participation yet some people who are less significant in season 1 will have a larger role in season 2. (talk)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwapong Chikoy (talk • contribs)

What about all of the TBA entries? Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:08, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Gwapong Chikoy: This is basing the order of the cast list on potential future events that have not happened yet instead of what is current and verifiable by reliable secondary sources, which is what Wikipedia requires (WP:RS). Stating that "most of the revisions and research are based and were done by myself" would tend to indicate that it is Original Research (OR) which runs counter to Wikipedia guidelines (see WP:NOR). Please provide a verifiable secondary source, especially for anything added as "TBA" or it will likely be removed as unsourced/unverifiable. Butlerblog (talk) 15:04, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

It is understood that this is planned as a multi-season show (as mentioned above). However, just because it is planned (and even in production) does not mean it will happen that way, if at all. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball (WP:CRYSTALBALL) so it does not provide speculative information. Wikipedia has several style guides for information on how things should be presented and sourced. There is a style guide specific to TV shows, which this article needs to follow. In that guide there are standards for cast lists. There is leeway within those standards, but none-the-less, there are specific things that need to be adhered to and that is what I was trying to get to with the previous discussion. We need to work within the standards outlined in MOS:TVCAST for the cast list. I tried to start that process, but it was reverted. So I've re-started by removing the TBA/unreleased Season 2 cast (see new section below). But the list also needs to be reordered according to the style guide. Butlerblog (talk) 05:22, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I hate to beat a dead horse, but based on past occurrences in this article, it is obviously necessary to explain the reason behind some changes so that if anyone objects, we can discuss it. Based on MOS:TVCAST, there are really only 2 distinctions: Main and Recurring. The order should be based on the order in which they are credited (quoting the MOS: "The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list.") Additionally, this should only be two lists: Main and Recurring, and these should follow notability guidelines. That means characters that are in the show (currently!) for a few minutes of screen time should not really be included. Otherwise, we end up with a list a mile long of characters that, quite frankly, are not notable and will not have a large role in the show. As already noted, future seasons have not happened, so the list should (read: must) be based on what is currently out and available - not future, as of yet unreleased seasons. When characters and their categorization change, then they can be changed/moved. For example, based on what's out now, Ramah is clearly a "recurring" character (actually, not even that because she's only in a single episode), but as noted by Gwapong above, she will be taking on a larger role. When that happens (and only "when" it happens), she would be moved to the end of the Main list as new main character. That's how it works. Once we have three seasons to work with, it may be appropriate to use the "table" method of listing cast members as that will give a better visual for people who change from recurring to main and vice versa. But MOS:TVCAST states that's for 3 seasons or more. So... with all that explained, I will make an edit to the cast based on MOS:TVCAST. It's going to look vastly different. If (when?) someone objects to this change, please let's discuss to move forward. Don't simply revert and start an edit war. I believe I've stated clearly enough that the change is to fix things to be in line with MOS:TVCAST, not personal preference. Butlerblog (talk) 20:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gwapong Chikoy: and @Butlerblog:. I reverted additions by Gwapong Chikoy earlier and requested that a discussion ensue. Gwapong Chikoy's reason is truth while Butlerblog is requesting MOS:TVCAST be adhered to, most notably, "ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list" with main and recurring characters either identified or in separate sections. Please recognize the concerns of the other editor and attempt to address them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Walter for your efforts. I do believe Gwapong's edits were in good faith, and it was not my intent to drive them away. In fact, I reached out on their talk page to thank them for their effort, hoping to to be encouraging. They obviously put a lot of work into locating information for the article. However, as you and I both pointed out, future events are not encyclopedic; and no original research and reliable sources as important Wikipedia standards still have to be followed. I'd like to see MOS:TV followed where possible, but there's room for flexibility. Where there isn't room for compromise is throwing out NOR and simply putting in whatever we want, regardless of whether it is "true" or not. Butlerblog (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

After review of all 8 season 1 episodes casting, I made a slight change to the list based on the producer's "top billing" (opening credits). Kian Kavousi is actually credited for episodes 6-8, not 5-8 (IMDB lists otherwise, but IMDB is considered not reliable, and this change comes from the production credits). It is at episode 6 that the opening credits change to include Potter, Woller, Cairo, and Ross (previously all in the closing credits). We already had them in "Main" in that order. However, Ivan Jasso was also billed "Main." MOS:TVCAST isn't crystal clear on what exactly constitutes "Main." Does it make sense to say that "Main" is top billing/opening credits, while "Recurring" is closing credits ("Also starring")? That's how I'm approaching it at this point. Based on that, Jasso was moved to "Recurring" and I reordered the remaining recurring cast based on when they were billed in the closing credits (a minor change, but based on the past, I felt it best to explain the change). Butlerblog (talk) 16:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

:@Gwapong Chikoy:, @Walter Görlitz: and @Butlerblog:. With all due respect, Butlerblog and Walter Gorlitz, some of the cast deserve credits somehow! I agree to Gwapong Chikoy somehow, because the information which is applied before this is somehow not that reliable because of the fact that there are too many main cast and few recurring cast. Also, there are also some significant people who participated in a special way in giving the heart of The Chosen and that's why Gwapong Chikoy put a portion of Special Participation! Also, regarding in the guests, it was there because the guests like Moses and Jacob fill the emotional layout for the show's heart and that's why they are significant, PLUS, they are Old Testament characters and should be put there.This information is more relevant and Gwapong Chikoy didn't include the characters which are less significant and are only there to fill emotional gap for the main cast like Zohara, Barnabay etc. Search on your own and you'll found out that these are true. Look on IMDB, accounts of the cast in social media and etc. And the order of the cast and characters is misplaced, perplexing, confusing, erroneous and out of context. BUT, I agree with you in terms of only season 1 episodes will be there (EVEN THOUGH ALL OF GWAPONG CHIKOY'S EDITS REGARDING SEASON 2 ARE ALL TRUE), I won't agree to the order of the cast and Gwapong Chikoy must be followed. Additionally, can we switch "Background and production" with "Themes"? Because it is somehow relevant that after episodes, there must be the theme for it and then background. Just a friendly message. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustAnOrdinaryGuy41 (talk • contribs)

I understand what you are saying; but Wikipedia's Manual of Style for a TV series disagrees with you. Please see MOS:TVCAST. Regarding "And the order of the cast and characters is misplaced, perplexing, confusing, erroneous and out of context." - No, it's based on the actual broadcast credits, following the MOS which says: "The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list." The MOS serves as a starting point so that we have some general guidelines, otherwise we just have chaos with everyone working in opposite directions. The "Main" characters are top billing as determined by the producers (not by you or me) by the original broadcast credits. IMDB is not considered a "reliable source" by Wikipedia's standards, nor is social media (WP:RS). Please read the MOS:TVCAST carefully (in fact, read the entire MOS:TV). We can't move forward on other things until we're all on the same page. The MOS information is there for you to review and understand. If you're making edits outside of Wikipedia's guidelines, they're generally going to get reverted. Butlerblog (talk) 15:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Re: Your edit of Kian Kavousi's episodes, please see the talk entry immediately above your entry. Kian Kavousi is credited for episodes 6-8, not 5-8. I realize IMDB lists otherwise, but IMDB is considered not reliable, and this change comes from the actual production credits. Butlerblog (talk) 15:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, WP:CHECKUSER has determined that JustAnOrdinaryGuy41 (talk · contribs) is a WP:SOCKPUPPET of Gwapong Chikoy (talk · contribs), although behavioural evidence was fairly clear as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Struck their edit through - note he was pinging himself. Doug Weller talk 10:35, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I kind of figured that was the case, but didn't want to assume. Thank you both for your efforts. Butlerblog (talk) 00:14, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Sources

All material in any articles needs to be sourceable through reliably published sources. As this article is about living people, all information about them should be reliable sourced.

I don't think all the sources here meet WP:RS. For instance, tvfanatic.com, sec.gov which is a statement by the group behind this series, and there is community consensus that PR Newswire is generally unreliable, as press releases published on the site are not subject to editorial oversight. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. And the American Family Association, part of the Christian Right, isn't an expert on the media - or anything else except themselves. Doug Weller talk 14:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I replaced the PR Newswire sources with (what I believe is) a more reliable source. I'll work on the others. Somewhere along the line this article took a turn towards being more a "fan page" than an encyclopedia article; but with a little work, I'm sure it can get moving in the right direction. Butlerblog (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

TBA entries and unreleased season 2 characters

Regarding the TBA cast, those do need to come out, as do the unfinalized season 2 only cast. It isn't direct in MOS:TV but it is alluded that things not actually released yet should not be included, because although it is in production, it is not complete and is subject to change. Wikipedia is not a "fan site;" it's an encyclopedia, so it can only be based on what is verifiable. For the cast, that means what is complete and NOT what is in production ("Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" WP:CRYSTALBALL also applies here). Butlerblog (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

To address some of the issues in this article, I did some additional removal of season 2 material, specifically that episode tables. To clarify based on MOS:TV, season 2 hasn't happened yet. In fact, it's still just in the filming stages. That means anything can happen and/or change. To meet appropriate style standards for a TV series article, the season 2 table should not be included until it can be complete (which basically means once its released). Until then, it's just speculation of future events (which we don't do here). Butlerblog (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Financing

I removed the following paragraph from the "Production" section (which I'm pasting here in case we want to bring it back after reworking it for problems):

In October 2017, Eves and Jenkins formed a Utah-based LLC in order to "develop and produce an episodic television series entitled 'The Chosen' which is intended to be distributed through online video streaming services, television and home video." Jenkins received a 49% ownership interest in the Company in exchange for his rights to the story. In XX, Eves, Jenkins and others worked with an investment bank to raise $13 million in financing for the project.

Part of the problem with this is that I believe it makes things a little confusing. This is from the SEC filing so that equity could be given to investors participating in crowd funding (which is discussed in the paragraph that was after this). But it is worded in a way that makes it sound as if these were two separate equity raises. It also uses a primary source (the SEC filing - which is rather confusing if you're not familiar with these), and also is incomplete ("In XX, Eves, Jenkins and others..." In XX? When is that?) Maybe this could be reworked and reworded into the information about the crowd funding? If so, it needs a better source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Butlerblog (talk • contribs) 21:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Scripture references

I moved the scripture references into a separate section in the "Themes" section. This makes the episode tables are now more consistent with the standard table (and IMO, easier to read), and second, it moves this information to "Themes" where it is more appropriate. These seem to be valid, but are technically unsourced. If anyone has source information that can source these that would be worthwhile. Any sourcing should be "show specific," though - not generic to the story being conveyed in the episode (Is it in the credits?). Butlerblog (talk) 21:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Butlerblog: Can we switch "Background and production" with "Themes"? Because it is somehow relevant that after episodes, there must be the theme for it and then background. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by JustAnOrdinaryGuy41 (talk • contribs)

Yes, that follows MOS:TV and I have been moving that direction, just hadn't gotten to that yet because correcting the cast list (and previous reversions) has taken some time. Another section change (which I'll apply) is that the section currently labeled "Overview" should be "Plot" and should contain the episodes, followed by the Cast section, then Background (which should contain production information), then Themes. Butlerblog (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, WP:CHECKUSER has determined that JustAnOrdinaryGuy41 (talk · contribs) is a WP:SOCKPUPPET of Gwapong Chikoy (talk · contribs), although behavioural evidence was fairly clear as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Identifying Date

Shouldn't the beginning of the article say "2017 television drama" instead of 2020, based on the release of the pilot, as IMDb does? Or 2019 as TMDb does, ignoring the pilot? brentbillings (talk) 22:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

It should probably just say "television drama" (no date), as the series is continuing for a 2nd season, with crowdfunding already being done for a 3rd. Butlerblog (talk) 21:01, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Capitalizing articles

@Mr. Pekka Stranker: and @Butlerblog: The question about capitalization based on how the title was originally written are immaterial as MOS:THECAPS and MOS:CAPTITLE are clear that the definite article (the) is not to be capitalized on Wikipedia unless it is at the start of a sentence. The exceptions to this rule of style are few and so "Jesus Loves the Little Children" is correct while "Jesus Loves The Little Children" is not, even though it may have been written that way somewhere else. Wikipedia does recognize that there are other manuals of style that prefer that articles be capitalized, but when titles are placed in an article on the English project, we follow our own MoS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC)]

@Walter Görlitz: Even it is stated in the Official The Chosen App? If it shouldn't be capitalized, then other words on other episodes are not to be capitalized too, like The Rock On Which It Is Built, wherein there's preposition, on, and it is capitalized. Explain that.

Did you read what Walter wrote above? "[T]he definite article (the) is not to be capitalized on Wikipedia unless it is at the start of a sentence." Your example of "The Rock..." isn't the same because "The" is the first word in the title. Aside from the fact that WP MOS would indicate it is not capitalized, the producer's site as well as the DVD for the episode in question uses a lowercase "t" - this is repeated in other locations as well, including IMdb and streaming services that have the series. Butlerblog (talk) 12:42, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia capitalization of titles excludes some words. Feel free to read the manuals of style and apply it correctly. If prepositions are to be excluded, then yes, change them as well. Definite articles are an easy one to catch. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:18, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@Butlerblog: Yes, I read what Görlitz said! I'm just concerned with the appropriate episode titles of The Chosen. Mr. Pekka Stranker (talk) 1:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

You have a good grasp on the manual of style. Feel free to apply it correctly. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Episodes

Regarding the episodes, is it necessary to create pages for each episodes for additional information? Just an opinion. And also, as season 2 is approaching this Easter Sunday, should we add the season 2 episode table? Because it is somehow necessary and the creator of The Chosen announced the release date of episode 1 of season 2 and the official titles for episodes 1, 3, and 4, with their scripture references. These are being done with other TV series pages here in Wikipedia, so it must be done also on The Chosen page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Pekka Stranker (talk • contribs) 12:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a season 2 table will be added as season 2 is released. There's a significant discussion of this above, but you could also refer to MOS:TVUPCOMING as a guideline. In fact, it's worthwhile to be familiar with MOS:TV in general. As far as creating pages for each episode, I don't think you'll find consensus for that. At this point, there is not enough to warrant multiple articles (at least in my opinion). The rule of thumb for multiple pages is 80+ episodes (see: MOS:TVEPISODELIST). Butlerblog (talk) 12:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I do not think an article per episode is required. We would only create one for each episode if there are a sufficient number of reliable sources to support them. An article for all of the episodes may be appropriate, particularly if the size of the section becomes uunweildy. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the season 2 episode table should be added right now because it is somewhat necessary. As I said earlier, titles of episodes 1, 3, and 4 are announced as well as the release of episode 1. I can put down where the creator of The Chosen said those. Mr. Pekka Stranker (talk) 1:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

And also, MOS:TVUPCOMING says, "When a series is renewed for an additional season, a section is not to be added for that upcoming season until such time as an episode table can be created for the season. The information regarding the renewal of the series should be added to the article's lead, depending on when and what info is revealed." So, it means that if there's an enough reference, then I could create a season 2 episode table. Additionally, it is neceassary because season 2 is about to be released. Mr. Pekka Stranker (talk) 1:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)