Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 November 24: Difference between revisions

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November 24

Template:BART Blue Line Sunday

Template:BART Blue Line Sunday (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused and the Dublin/Pleasanton–Daly City line already has a route map. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:52, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Pinnaroo railway line (SA) RDT

Template:Pinnaroo railway line (SA) RDT (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Pinnaroo railway line (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Propose merging Template:Pinnaroo railway line (SA) RDT with Template:Pinnaroo railway line.
The templates are effectively similar (duplicate), with the exception for one template using sidings and the other template using station icons. If the merge goes ahead, I will move the merged template to include (SA) because I will create a template for the Victoria Pinnaroo Railway Line. Train of Knowledge (Talk) 23:33, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge One template is better than two for the same subject. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:06, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge: Sensible and logical. I didn't realise way back when I created the new template that an old one existed. ~~

Unused template, part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Fungi/Fungi Collaboration, now marked as historical. No reasonable chance of future use. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(shrugs) weak keep....ideally one day if the project is more active it'd be great to resurrect this. As this is not clogging article space and wikipedia ain't paper, I see no reason to delete. I'm not gonna cry in my beer if deleted however. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. This can be undeleted in the unlikely event that the defunct-since-2007 collaboration restarts. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to WP:WikiProject Fungi/Fungi Collaboration/Template for the project's rejuvination per Casliber. As this template doesn't need to reside in template space, and this is a wikiproject specific template, it can reside in the projects subpages -- 65.92.246.43 (talk) 02:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 17:27, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:rtl-lang and Template:rtl-para

Template:Rtl-lang (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Rtl-para (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Per discussion with Trappist the monk on the Talk page for rtl-lang, I think I'm right in saying that neither of these templates need to exist. Both {{lang}} and {{para}} seem to detect rtl-functionality as a matter of course now; there are a lot of extraneous language templates, and these are two of 'em. Please note I've been unable to properly add a deletion discussion notice to rtl-lang because the page is permanently template-protected; apologies. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 16:19, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: TFD banner added to {{rtl-lang}}. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I came here because I use one of these templates on my user page. If they go will there be an alternative? And if so, what is it? Mccapra (talk) 20:34, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mccapra: Template:User ar-1 uses {{rtl-lang}}, but other than that I don't see this template on your user page. Anyway, I believe the alternative is to remove either template and things are supposed to work fine without it. If you have counterexamples, this would be a good place to share them. —Anomalocaris (talk) 01:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I’m not suggesting any alternatives, just asking whether these are actually redundant or not. I don’t feel very reassured by “things are supposed to work fine without it.” Do they or don’t they? Mccapra (talk) 08:20, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
{{rtl-lang}} is used in the {{User ar-1}} template on your user page. {{rtl-lang}} can be renamed to {{lang}}; here is the Arabic text and markup from that user box:
Template:Rtl-lang ← {{rtl-lang}}

هذا المستخدم يتحدث اللغة العربية بمستوى مبتدئ. ← {{lang}}

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:46, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely disagree: I'm not sure if you are able to read any right-to-left text, like Arabic and Hebrew. It is very clear on {{rtl-para}} description and even the example there that it is for longer paragraphs to correctly render text, numbers, which include a left-to-right text, without needing the Right-to-Left unicode mark. I'll give you examples for both templates compared with your suggested alternatives:

-

0 ویکی‌پدیا (به انگلیسی: ‎0 Wikipedia)

- |fa=0 ویکی‌پدیا (به انگلیسی: 0 Wikipedia)

- |0 ویکی‌پدیا (به انگلیسی: 0 Wikipedia)=

- Rtl-para renders long paragraphs, not only from right-to-left, but also aligns them to the right side. It ensures that longer quotes are rendered correctly to be read normally by readers of such languages, to check a source or so.

- With {{rtl-lang}} Template:Rtl-lang English text around

- With {{lang}} 0 ویکی‌پدیا (به انگلیسی: ‎0 Wikipedia) where are the brackets and the numbers?

- Rtl-lang is important to render right-to-left text within the left-to-right text (English), but without breaking the line. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 01:51, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't

{{lang-fa|label=none|0 ویکی‌پدیا (به انگلیسی: {{lang|en|2=‎<span title="I added a left-to-right mark">0 Wikipedia</span>}}) }}

do that?

Result: With {{lang-fa}} Template:Lang-fa English text around Gonnym (talk) 07:55, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The documentation there template:Lang#Right-to-left languages is worth checking. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 09:22, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely Keep rtl-para, which is unrelated to para. Probably keep rtl-lang—it may be replaced by lang, but whoever wants to do it must first go over its current transclusions and check whether it's actually as easy as it seems, and it must be done with someone who can read an RTL language. I can, and I'm not certain that it can be done easily. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I should note that I can't read Arabic or Persian; my understanding that these templates are redundant comes from this discussion I had with Trappist the monk, who kindly looked into it for me:
"Here are the examples given on the doc page using {{rtl-lang}} along-side the same example using {{lang}}:
The romanization of "Template:Rtl-lang" is "al-luġah al-‘arabiyyah".
The romanization of "اللغة العربية" is "al-luġah al-‘arabiyyah".
The romanization of "Template:Rtl-lang" is "‘Ivrit".
The romanization of "עברית" is "‘Ivrit".
Kazakh (Қазақ тілі; Template:Rtl-lang) is a Turkic language ...
Kazakh (Қазақ тілі; قازاق ڌﻳل) is a Turkic language ...

To me, they look the same. Under the bonnet, there is a minor difference: {{rtl-lang}} includes a trailing &lrm; html entity{{:}}

[[:Template:Rtl-lang]]
اللغة العربية

{{lang}} does not include &lrm; because the  tag includes the dir="rtl" attribute which applies to all of the text that the ... encloses.

I suspect that this template is an artifact from the time before Module:Lang when {{lang}} could not automatically determine directionality. In the olden days, editors had to add |rtl= to force {{lang}} to add the dir="rtl" attribute and the &lrm; html entity so this template was a sort of typing shorthand. Since {{lang}} does automatically determine directionality, it seems to me that this template can go away."

So, my understanding was that {{lang}} encodes this directionality already; you'd think it'd be part and parcel of a language code itself being invoked.----Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 10:55, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I have wrapped the TFD notice on rtf-lang with noinclude tags, because I found the above discussion impossible to parse. The downside of this action is that fewer people will be directed to this discussion by the intrusive notices created by the 4,000 transclusions of this template; it may need to be advertised actively on relevant discussion pages. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:44, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Jonesey95: - apologies if I've messed things up here; this is my first TfD discussion. What pages would you recommend? My thoughts would be Wikiproject languages and accessibility, but I don't know which others to place a notice on.----Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 10:43, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  Nobody messed up anything here; the tags just sometimes make it difficult to interpret what is supposed to be happening. A useful discussion forums might be Template talk:Lang, and and WikiProject talk pages that are connected to a large number of articles that use these templates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:39, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep rtl-para, but it looks like rtl-lang is redundant per the discussion above. rtl-para has the useful property of right justification, which is very useful particularly in tables using rtl languages. Fieari (talk) 06:30, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Inge Bernstein

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Delete; deleted as G7 by Maile66 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 21:19, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Inge Bernstein (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

I have just realised this article is too old for DYK eligibility; self-nominated deletion. —AFreshStart (talk) 15:45, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done — Maile (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Infobox US Supreme court cases

Template:Infobox US Supreme court cases (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused, seemingly redundant to Template:Infobox US Supreme Court case. Hog Farm _Talk 14:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This would have been a Speedy Delete per the former speedy T3 criterion. TFD is a formality in this case. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Tara Kemp track listing

Template:Tara Kemp track listing (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused, could possibly only ever be used in one article, and a prose list is used there instead. Hog Farm _Talk 14:49, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: redundant, the album article already has a track listing in the main body of the text, and this track listing can't be used on any other article. Richard3120 (talk) 20:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:(S1)

Template:(S1) (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Per Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 November 13#Template:R1, the S-phrase templates in Category:S-phrase templates should be deprecated, placed in Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Holding cell, replaced with relevant P phrases and deleted when unused.

Pinging previous discussion participents: User:Tom (LT), User:Graeme Bartlett, User:DePiep, User:Izno, User:Jonesey95 and closer User:Primefac. Gonnym (talk) 10:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They have already been tagged for deletion for a while. They have already been deprecated for years. They should have been discussed along with R1, but I think the nomination was not adequate to list the affected templates. I support the idea to replace by P phrases, and I am about the only one doing that job. However deleting will make a mess in the history of all the most important chemical articles, including ethanol. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:44, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Same treatment as TfD:R1 set (13 Nov 2021) (R1 holding pen)

I note that replacement with GHS phrases is an expert job, not an algorithm. User:Graeme Bartlett is working on this (petcan check: from 572 on Nov 1st down to 332 today :-). IOW, the pen process is patient, fine. -DePiep (talk) 08:38, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Cross-wiki user

Template:Cross-wiki user (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Used by only a single user on personal user pages. Izno (talk) 00:08, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This template provides userspace links across wikiprojects, in the same way that {{sister project}} does so for articles. It's hasn't really been advertised, but there really isn't an appropriate substitute for this functionality. I'd be thrilled if we had an all-encompassing cross-wiki linking template that would recognize the different links for articles, user pages, template pages, etc. but until that time, these templates should be left available for users to get access across Wikimedia sister projects. Van Isaac, MPLL^cont_WpWS 02:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as serving a useful function, well within our userspace template tolerances – unless there's a better/easier way of doing the same thing. This could, however, move to User:UBX/Userboxes/Wikipedia/Cross-wiki user, then be listed at User:UBX/Userboxes/Wikipedia. We alreay migrated a large number of userboxes out of the Template namespace years ago and should do more of them. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:23, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to some other template in Category:Wikimedia account user templates. This appears to be redundant with pre-existing userboxes, at least in purpose if not exact feature-set. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:26, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SMcCandlish: I think you misunderstand the purpose then. This is not a userbox for advertising a person's cross-wiki activities, and does not really function as such. It is a tool for userpages so that editors can have access to their main links on sister projects, much like other cross-wiki templates provide links to sister project content in other namespaces. Van Isaac, MPLL^cont_WpWS 06:13, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The only functional difference I can see between this and several templates already in that category is that this one provides talk, contribs, uploads, and watchlist links, which are features that can be added to a pre-existing template as parameters. Several of those other templates are also redundant and can merge away. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:39, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would be happy to relist this along with other templates you think are at least partially redundant to see what sort of merger we could accomplish. I originally made this template because I couldn't find anything to accomplish the task, so if that functionality is already present elsewhere, it should be merged, and we should be doing better at categorizing and linking those templates so that others can find them. Van Isaac, MPLL^cont_WpWS 09:09, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Without looking in subcategories, every template in that category appears to be redundant. A combined one could, with no parameters produce output like {{User SUL}}; with just a username, {{User unified}} or {{User global}}; with a username and a parameter for what one's "home" wiki and/or language are, the output of {{User SUL Box}} (which also renders the German-hardcoded {{User SUL-de}} and the fewer-options {{User SUL-bar}} completely pointless). I would suggest starting with {{User SUL Box}} which has the richest options, and adding parameters to display talk, contribs, etc. links when a "home" wiki is specified. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Mainly looking for more opinions on merge v. delete.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 08:38, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:100 Most Common Family Names in Mainland China

Template:100 Most Common Family Names in Mainland China (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:101-200 Most Common Family Names in Mainland China (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Per precedent at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_April_30#Template:Taiwan's_Top_100_surnames. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 07:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Don't see the benefit in having this as a topic that needs a navbox. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, and I'm unconvinced the prior TfD had the right outcome (I certainly would've !voted keep were I aware of it). Eastern surnames are much more centralized than Western ones, such that the "other countries don't have these navboxes" objection falls apart when you consider where enwiki's coverage is biased -- the naming practices most heavily covered by an English-language, Western-centric project are very different to those in East Asia, where a small number of surnames covers millions of people. Because the most popular Eastern surnames are much more concentrated in the population than their Western counterparts, there is in turn much more historical and modern significance attached to the ranking and sorting of surnames. "100 Chinese surnames" is a very natural category -- it's in fact the category of the Hundred Family Surnames, one of the single most important works in Chinese literary history. With only around 4000 surnames in China at all, the top 100 surnames and the 101-200 surnames are things that carry cultural significance in a way they don't elsewhere and shake out as natural categories more smoothly. Someone interested in reading about a surname in one such category is much more likely to be interested in reading further about similarly popular surnames and the history of Chinese surname popularity and culture than someone doing the same with Western surnames, which is the reason we have these navboxes for Chinese surnames and not Western ones. Vaticidalprophet 03:54, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Usercat

Template:Usercat (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

It's a pity that no one uses it now. Q28 left a message at 00:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You could use it, and then it wouldn't be orphaned :-) --Trovatore (talk) 04:38, 24 November 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Redirect to Template:User category, which seems to do the same thing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Lowercase title/old

Template:Lowercase title/old (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

It is no longer used. -- Q28 left a message at 00:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History merge to Template:Lowercase title and delete. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:WelcomeMessage

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Izno (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:WelcomeMessage (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This is a welcome template but no longer in use. Q28 left a message at 00:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Doesn't seem to have been substituted since 2014 * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - better to centralize to a smaller number of welcome templates which can be kept up to date with the latest resources as Template:Welcome is. Also the look of that template is very dated. User:GKFX^talk 19:32, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:History of the Armée de l'Air

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Izno (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:History of the Armée de l'Air (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

One thing I noticed is that this template is not being used. Q28 left a message at 00:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment it certainly could be put to work. History of the Armée de l'Air (1909–1942) has no navigation templates between eras of the Air Force, and this seems to fit the bill -- 65.92.246.43 (talk) 03:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

@@ Line 176: / Line 176: @@
 ==== [[Template:WelcomeMessage]] ====
+<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
+:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''
+The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 00:31, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * {{Tfd links|WelcomeMessage}}
 This is a welcome template but no longer in use. [[User:Q28|Q28]] left a message at 00:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
@@ Line 181: / Line 185: @@
 :'''Delete''' - better to centralize to a smaller number of welcome templates which can be kept up to date with the latest resources as [[Template:Welcome]] is. Also the look of that template is very dated. [[User:GKFX]]<sup>[[User talk:GKFX|talk]]</sup> 19:32, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''</div>
 ==== [[Template:History of the Armée de l'Air]] ====