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7 February 2007

Solar_Empire

Was deleted for no good reason Open Source BBG.

Deletion talk page: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Solar_Empire_(second_nomination) Sorry for being pissy, but don't you people have anything better to do than randomly delete fully formed articles? Please remember I have no idea how the undelete process works and can't be bothered to spend 50 mins finding out - it took 10 mins just to get to this point and that's before writing this stuff. Way to waste time. Being a non-full-time WPian I don't have the foggiest what much of that talk page says, but I can provide some links, which is what I think it wants:

To prove the age of Solar Empire: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://solarempire.com - November 27 1999 being the earliest from archive.org - Don't get more authorative than that! Also, had whoever was voting for deletion bothered to look they could have found the Solar Empire page on sourceforge (it was linked in the article) http://sourceforge.net/projects/solar-empire/ , signed up "2000-12-13 11:28" (twas closed source before then). What else do we need to prove? If you try: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22solar+empire%22&num=30&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 you get this game for the top 4 results with the new, commercial game Sins of a Solar Empire coming 5th. Notable yet? How about we delete the SoaSE entry too! Gah.

What else do I need to provide links for? It's all there if you bother looking (rather than just professing to).

Again, sorry for being disagreeable, but I hate bureautwats. If you want something constructive to do - try starting here :-p

Image:Twiggy promo.jpg

Twiggy was an international supermodel and pop culture icon in the late 60's, the face of Swinging London as the article suggests. How is it then, that a fair use image of her in the late 60s was deleted with the reasoning of it being replaceable fair use. The image was properly sourced (from her official website) and included fair use rationale, free images were looked for on flickr and LoC but could not be found. It isn't a replacable image, we can't magic up a historic free use image of Twiggy. She might still be alive, but its absolutely useful and encyclopedic to have a fair use image of her from that time period. The deletion log claims that it was not being "context of her 60s appearance", which is not true, her 60s appearance is mentioned and the photo was used to illustrate it. If you see the talk page, you'll see the tagging admin argue the really trivial point that infoboxes are seperate entities, and had there been no infobox, it would have been alright. This is ridiculous, the deletion was in error. I was not the only one to have commented against its deletion, another user had also expressed an objection to the tagging. - hahnch e n 19:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn and restore. I'm not sure there was a fair use violation here. It's impossible to get a free-use image from the 1960s, which makes it not replaceable fair use, and a recent picture probably would not work either. --Core desat 20:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anarcho-Monarchism

It is a separate idea from other anarchist thought. When I was referred there from the J.R.R. Tolkien page it was a useful and informative explanation of the idea. Please undelete. Josha 17:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus at AfD was clear - hence my closure. Do you have a reason that was not examined during that debate?--Doc^g 18:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion; a clear consensus was reached that this article was original research vaguely extrapolated from some of Dali's and Tolkien's personal political views; "anarcho-monarchism" is not a political movement by any stretch of the imagination. Krimpet 18:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Here are some new sources for consideration: (i) Bey, Hakim. T.A.Z.: The Temporary Autonomous Zone, Ontological Anarchy, Poetic Terrorism. (2004) Black Crown & Black Rose: Anarcho-Monarchism & Anarcho-Mysticism.; (ii) Wilson, Peter Lamborn. (1993) Sacred Drift: Essays on the Margins of Islam. Page 65.; (iii) Brunswich, Mark; McAuliffe, Bill. (February 2, 2003) Star Tribune. Inside Talk: News, information and observations from the legislative and political arenas; Web site finds fun and farce in the politics of Minneapolis. News section, page 5B. ("Most of the staff of Raucouscaucus.com are Anarcho-Monarchists, a political movement that seeks to restore the reign of King Ludd"; (iv) Cockburn, Alexander. (December 6, 1999) Nation. "Exchange." Volume 269; Issue 19; Page 2. ("Go on, I dare you! Call me an anarcho-monarchist-constitutionalist."); (v) Harding, Helen E. (2005) Story a Day. Page 549.; (vi) Wayne John Sturgeon analyses (while not a Wikipedia source itself, it does mention some new Wikipedia qualified sources that might help create a valid Wikipedia article on the topic.); (vii) Amazon anarcho-monarchists and Amazon Anarcho-monarchism. -- Jreferee 19:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion, no prejudice against creating a new article, although I find a the sources a bit flimsy. ~ trialsanderrors 19:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Long Island Economy

This page was not meant to be spammy. We are a well regarded company based in Long Island, New York. We will fix and modify everything nessesary to have our page undeleted. Our comptetitor Long Island Exchange has an article with alot of the same content and it wasn't deleted. When people search us on wiki and see that we've been deleted it makes us look very bad. Please undelete this article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.187.83 (talk)

Not actually unsigned, but misentered, so I used a handy shortcut. GRBerry 17:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion -- Long Island Exchange has also been deleted. Beware of using wikipedia to advertise yourself! Sdedeo (tips) 17:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment for the author: while Wikipedia is not for advertising, if you really feel your company is notable enough to deserve a Wikipedia entry, you can try to rewrite the page from a strictly neutral point of view as long as you can provide independently verifiable sources that prove your company's notability. Krimpet 18:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion While Long Island Economy is a well regarded company, Wikipedia requires that others say it is a well regarded company and that they say it in publications that meet Wikipedia requirements such as being independent of Long Island Economy. See WP:N. The only way to fix the Wikipedia Long Island Economy article would be to footnote the content with valid Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I could not find any reliable sources to use in footnoting the Long Island Economy article, so I do not think it can be fixed to meet Wikipedia criteria. As for "when people search us on wiki and see that we've been deleted it makes us look very bad" perhaps some administrator could provide some kind assistance and address this. -- Jreferee 20:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

China as an emerging superpower

Also see earlier discussions:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Potential Superpowers—India Group nomination, no consensus in March 2006, but consensus that articles couldn't remain in their current form

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People's Republic of China as an emerging superpower Speedy keep in June 2006

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/China as an emerging superpower Keep in November 2006

(As well as others in the crossfire.) I'm a long term wiki user and was very surprised to see that the admin closed this with a delete. By my count, the comments were 20-18 in favor of keeping. I am happy to accept the admin's discounting of a bundle of comments on either side which were a little "me-too"ish, and to go with their count of 15-13 in favor of deleting. But long experience watching AfD's has taught me that (a) AfD is about consensus, not numerical majority -- i.e., AfD is not a "vote" as described by the admin, (b) we should err on the side of "keep" when judging consensus, especially when good faith is in abundance (as it is here), and (c) a rough rule of thumb is that something more like 2-1 is really required before you really start to call it a consensus. (nominated by User:Sdedeo)

Overturn, strongly. Everyking 08:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse without prejudice against creating policy-compliant articles about the subjects. Simply put, the articles were term papers. Term paper topics ask students to collect corroborating evidence for both sides of the argument and weigh them against each other. Wikipedia explicitly asks its editors not to do that. The nomination was wrong to invoke crystal ball though, and articles on the topic can perfectly be written by consulting experts who published on the topic. The closure was proper because our core policies override consensus, and no attempt was made to bring the articles in line with policy. A fresh start seems to be the necessary step here. ~ trialsanderrors 09:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- But people who voted keep obviously did not agree that the article violated any policy. I think that notion is completely unfounded. So the outcome of the debate doesn't really depend on the community's judgment at all—it depends on the viewpoint of a single admin about whether the article violates policy? If people here vote to undelete the article, will it then be OK for Jaranda to delete it again if he still thinks it violates policy? I think admins should be putting the community's decisions into practice, not ignoring them and coming up with decisions of their own. Everyking 10:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't actually see a keep opiner state that it's not OR. All kinds of other arguments (useful, well sourced, important topic), but the main claim that it fails one of our core policies is not refuted. Also, the core policies are not speedy criteria. But they're consensus overriding, yes, that means it's up to the closing admin to make the call whether the issue was properly addressed. ~ trialsanderrors 10:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - It did not remotely appear like OR to me, so it did not occur to me to refute that in my vote. Let's continue with the idea I mentioned earlier. Say this is undeleted through process and Jaranda deletes it again: would that be legitimate? Is there ever a limit? I suggest that empowering admins over the community is a very bad idea; it should be the other way around, with admins implementing community decisions. Everyking 10:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - It's in the nomiantion. It's also not too hard to detect OR by synthesis. If the article says "the following sources facts speak in favor of the 'future superpower position', and the following sourced facts speak against it", it's OR. And the article did exactly that. ~ trialsanderrors 10:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        You are trying to argue for flaws in the article to justify its deletion, whereas I think that any flaws in the article are irrelevant for the purposes of this debate, because the community decided to keep the article. Your side obviously did not argue for the flaws well enough during the debate. The flaws you speak of, if they exist, would have to be dealt with by editors or another AfD nom would be required to get a delete vote from the community on that basis. I do not accept that Jaranda can veto the community's decision and do whatever he likes. The issue has very deep implications. Everyking 10:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm applying the standards we have for AfD closures to this one, which are: 1. No evidence of bias or bad faith in the closure, 2. Closure based on weight of arguments and not mere vote counting, and 3. Core policies trump consensus. I also didn't opine for deletion, so it's certainly not "my side" that won. ~ trialsanderrors 19:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - the closing admin discounted a NUMBER of both keep and delete votes, typically votes that neither touched on the fact it was in the wrong namespace and OR. The arguement regarding consusus put forth by Everyking, in a nutshell, is saying "if a bunch of people vote keep without any reasoning their votes should determine consensus, but if you say delete with reasons and someone says it seems useful the delete votes don't determine consensus." Since almost NONE of the keep arguments touched on the fact that no matter how sourced some of the articles were that their construction, points, and sweeping outlays were complete OR (not to mention highly POV), I fail to see how this even merits discussion. --Elar a girl^Talk|Count 10:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Overturn - The articles were some of the best written ones on Wiki and probably the only ones yielding such comprehensive information about the nations in question and their status as a potential superpower. Please restore the articles, such wealth of information at one place, accessible by just a simple google search must not be lost. If someone is curious about about the nations in question and their status as a potential future superpower then they are going to be very lost right now. Thank You. _{Freedom skies| talk} 10:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse inherently POV original research - unsalvageable.--Doc^g 11:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Closing administrator made the correct decision. Proto::► 11:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion, no obvious procedural issues. Fails WP:OR and always did. The deletion nomination was comprehensive and correct. Guy (Help!) 12:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and redirect (protected) to People's Republic of China. As far as I can see, the policy-based deletion reason was the failure of WP:NPOV. However, there appears to be quite a bit of decent content in this article, fairly well-referenced, and the claims that this was some sort of crystal balling didn't seem to hold up during the Afd discussion. There is consensus, even among many of the delete !votes, that this content can be refactored and merged elsewhere. --- RockMFR 14:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion per trialsanderrors, I see no problems with this decision. It was POV OR - we are not a publisher of original thought. --Core desat 14:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. The article does not violated any policy. There are vast amount of literature directly discussing these topics.--Vsion 14:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted, no chance of salvage for this content. Closing admin was correct in assessing the quality of the pages. Christopher Parham (talk) 15:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. The articles failed WP:OR. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion, with no prejudice against creating an article which is not term paperish. Calling something not POV and OR does not mean that it is not. -Amark moo! 15:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: as I understand DRV, if you have nothing to say about the process, you should not be commenting here (i.e., this is not a place to restate your AfD "vote".) Sdedeo 17:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC) ← Comment added by Sdedeo, but because the top of the page was malformed it accidentally got my signature originally. GRBerry 17:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gregory Kohs

JewsDidWTC

Cyrus Farivar

A notification, rather than a request, but I'm not sure where else to put it. I am undeleting Cyrus Farivar as per Jimbo's previous endorsement of exactly this act: "Even if VfD _did_ produce a consensus that this article should be deleted, then VfD is broken and should be ignored." [4]. User:Jaranda expressed concern that this was not brought to DRV, so I figured I should leave notice here (and also on WP:AN before restoring it again. I will not continue to restore at this point, but I will bring the issue through proper dispute resolution channels should it continue to be an issue.

I am not asking for or opening a full review because, well, it's unnecessary and beside the point. DRV is a process through which we review deletions, but it is not the sole way in which they are reviewed. This is something that there is a definitive ruling on - journalists with the publication record of Cyrus Farivar are notable. Small segments of the community may create pages that proport to establish other criteria for notability, and AfDs can fail to attract the attention of anything but the mindset that currently dominates the page, but none of this changes the basic fact that a notability guideline of that extremity has been actively rejected from the very top, and the act of unilaterally restoring this article has explicitly been sanctioned.

This ought not only terminate the debate, but also serve as a rather sobering warning about the sad state of so-called policy on Wikipedia, whereby it clearly does not provide useful guidance on our actual best practice. Phil Sandifer 01:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

General reminder As the last community decision was the AFD, closed as delete, "Endorse" here at deletion review means the article should be returned to a deleted state. GRBerry 02:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question As the quote by Jimbo at the top of Wikipedia:Argumentum ad Jimbonem points out, arguments based on what Jimbo said are pretty weak. Given that it is policy that consensus can change, and given that the standard for biographies of living people have gotten a lot tighter since he made that remark 18 months ago, why should we believe that Jimbo would still endorse that old quote? There is not a single reliable source meeting the standards for biographies of living people used in the article, other than the Slate article on the greenlighting thing. GRBerry 02:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If Farivar's blog is not being used as a source (and I'm fairly sure that it is), it should be - but the sources that Farivar's journalistic endeavors exist are transparently easy to find. Phil Sandifer 03:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion unless a better case can be made that the AfD was somehow improperly closed or had other outstanding circumstances. Much like the "Able and Baker" fiasco, a longstanding editor like Phil should be aware by now that the way to rescue articles from AfD is to improve them (particularly by sourcing them properly) rather than pretending to have some magical power to override consensus. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 02:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A better option is for the collective community to not blindly follow sourcing guidelines that obviously lead to wrong conclusions. That was the argument last time, when the attempt to delete it as vanity came through, and it's the argument this time - this is obviously an article we should have a topic on. If our current guidelines on notability and sourcing prohibit it, the guidelines are broken and should be ignored. If the guidelines were established because of the overwhelming voice of the community, the community is broken and should be ignored. All of this is entirely within Wikipedia practice - it is in fact the model of it. Phil Sandifer 03:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Or a better option - the guidelines be amended to allow for obvious cases such as this. Sadly, we're moving in the opposite direction. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - If you really believe that ignoring the community is within Wikipedia practice, then you're clearly too far gone for me to debate intelligently with. Sorry. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - He's not really wrong... --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Did WP:NOT get edited to remove "Wikipedia is not a democracy" without my noticing it? Phil Sandifer 03:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - Last time I checked, no, but WP:POINT is still there. Krimpet 03:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        What point do you think I'm illustrating? Phil Sandifer 04:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        That you're trying to promote your own less restrictive standards of notability in the face of reasonable community consensus. And as WP:POINT states, "Discussion, rather than unilateral action, is the preferred means of changing policies, and the preferred mechanism for demonstrating the problem with policies or the way they are implemented." Krimpet 05:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - Perhaps more relevantly, "Wikipedia is not a democracy" continues to say that "Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion". So I wouldn't call not a democracy a strong reason for overturning consensus. If you want to make the argument that consensus has been misread either in the AFD (potentially plausible), or in giving guidelines guideline status (unlikely to be agreed to), make that argument. But I don't see "not a democracy" as endorsing an attempt to ignore consensus. GRBerry 04:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        Midway through your comment, you switch from saying that consensus comes from discussion to seeming to say that consensus comes from a critical mass of voices, which is still a flavor of democracy. Consensus is what emerges when Wikipedians who are firmly invested in the project's aims and principles think about an issue. My contention is that the people who weighed in on this issue did a bad job of considering the project's aims. And I unfortunately don't think that the people who frequent DRV have ever shown themselves to be much better. Perhaps this will just take an arbcom case to sort out in the end. Phil Sandifer 04:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        Five letters... WP:AGF. It's cocky to simply assume that the opposing viewpoint "did a bad job of considering the project's aims", while touting your own views as "obvious" and "best practice". I want to build a better encyclopedia. You want to build a better encyclopedia. Until they explicitly prove otherwise, I assume everyone else wants to build a better encyclopedia too. Krimpet 05:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious undelete. Phil is 100% on the money. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion. Jimbo's quote referred to a questionable AfD a year and a half ago, where an influx of new users and IP addresses contributed to the "delete" consensus and thus one could reasonably argue that particular AfD was "broken and should be ignored". It seems Phil Sandifer has instead taken this as a blessing upon his own personal standards of notability, and as a command to unilaterally enforce these "definitive rulings" that fly in the face of community consensus. Krimpet 03:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- That is a flat misreading of the circumstances of the past AfD - the decision was made based on notability. Phil Sandifer 03:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - It's certainly hard to tell exactly what the circumstances are, though, considering it seems the only place the quote can be found is out-of-context in the Signpost article. To avoid making interpretation of this quote an issue, I have humbly requested to Jimbo that he leave his opinion on this current matter to clarify things. Krimpet 04:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm about to head to bed, but I'll go find the original discussion on Jimbo's page. Phil Sandifer 04:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion I could care less what Jimbo said more than a year ago. After looking through the history, and the very thin sourcing, I don't see anything wrong with the closure, and the attitude here regarding consensus as only being compose of those that Mr. Sandifer finds acceptible is bad enough that I'm almost sure I must be misinterpreting it. The idea that we need to justify our ability to contribute and decide issues inline with projects aims, and if we disagree we're no longer fit to do so, is ... well, it's not AGF. --Elar a girl^Talk|Count 04:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, I'd find Jimbo's stance on three other issues far more important to consider than any comments he has made specifically regarding this article. First of all, I believe Jimbo has made quite clear that, except for in those rare situations in which the Jimbo, on behalf of the foundation, exercises his "executive power," his opinions are to be given no more weight than those of any other reasonable editor in good standing. If this were an issue of concern to the foundation or if Jimbo felt the need to explicitly intervene, we would not be having this discussion at all nor would there have been four AfD discussions nor would there be any real opportunity to appeal the deletions and undeletions of this article--as WP:OFFICE has not even threatened to reer its head in this case, it is clear that Jimbo has not sought to excercise any executive authority and, thus, the opinion of all of us here is equally as valid as his. Secondly, Jimbo has also made quite clear the importance of verifiability and neutrality. In this article, I see one source--a story the article's subject wrote about himself--a link to the subject's blog, and a link to a podcast interview with the subject. Hardly neutral, and if in more than two years no other sources could be found to verify the article's contents, I find it highly unlikely that the article will ever live up to this standard of verifiability and neutrality. All discussion and process aside, if an article has no hope of ever becoming non-biased and well-sourced, it has no place on Wikipedia. Thirdly, Jimbo has always placed great emphasis on the importance of process and consensus. In the most recent AfD of this article, I believe that the consensus of the community was quite clearly in favor of deleting and that the process was in no way impeded. Overruling consensus in this case would, however, serve to interfere with this process and with the faith of Wikipedia's articles in the process. Ultimately, I see nothing about this article that should anyway separate it from being bound by process and consensus as is every article on Wikipedia. AmiDaniel (talk) 05:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted - I would not have !voted delete here, but there was a clear consensus to delete and that's more important than my personal opinion. Also, hitting the delete (or, in this case, undelete) button when you are a party to the discussion is rarely a good idea. --BigDT 05:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Restore. Many of the delete !votes were simply of the type "not notable", while I feel Phil had a pretty decent argument for inclusion. The subject appears to be a prolific journalist and writer. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, valid discussion and good conclusion. We don't decide who is notable, other sources decide that. If there are no or not enough sources about the person, then he isn't notable. What he does is irrelevant. We are a tertiary source, not a secondary one. Oh, and Jimbo Wales is known to change his mind on what should and shouldn't be included in Wikipedia, and does normally not consider his opinion to be "law"[5]. 08:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete. Perhaps Jimbo Wales should step in here, if that's what it takes. RFerreira 08:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He has been asked to comment (as of this timestamp, not yet). See User talk:Jimbo Wales#Cyrus Farivar revisited. GRBerry 14:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Just passing by, but I think the crucial point here is that wikipedia has moved since Jimbo made this pronouncement. (We should not be re-having the AfD discussion here -- rather addressing a point that might override the consensus.) Sdedeo (tips) 08:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC) A plague on both your houses. I think it's dangerous to overturn consensus, but on the other hand, this is the fourth AfD (#s one and two ended in keep, #3 ended in no consensus.) I'm concerned that lack of respect for consensus is heavy on all sides. Sdedeo (tips) 09:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete while I think its a bad precident to overturn community consensus... there is a reason we have WP:IAR. Jimbo has de facto stated the guy is notable. ALKIVAR™ ☢ 09:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If we follow your logic, Alkivar, why even have the community debate these things at all? Just let Jimbo do it. No? --Elar a girl^Talk|Count 10:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let me quote,
I think that almost any argument, on any topic, which has premises beginning with "Jimbo said..." is a pretty weak argument. Surely the merits of the proposal should be primary, not what I happen to think. -- Jimbo Wales.
Hence, endorse. "Jimbo said something related to this over a year ago" is no reason to override consensus. >Radiant< 10:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse properly closed deletion. This is notwithstanding the fact that by applying the Jimbo-logic-exclusion-principle, the statement I think that almost any argument, on any topic, which has premises beginning with "Jimbo said..." is a pretty weak argument. Surely the merits of the proposal should be primary, not what I happen to think. may also be discounted, thereby restoring the primacy of Jimbo's opinion...of course, once that is restored, then the statement become validated once again, and therefore must be discounted. Oh heck with Jimbo...his circular logic trap is giving me a headache. —Doug Bell ^talk 10:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. It doesn't matter if Jimbo said anything, his word is not the be-all, end-all. The AFD closure was valid. --Core desat 14:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion per Doug Bell and Ami Daniel; nothing wrong with the AfD. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse valid AfD. No arguments (besides Jimbo's say so) to overturn consensus just statements that consensus (as embodied in our guidelines and the AfD) is wrong. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but 99% of the time it runs on consensus not fiat. Eluchil404 15:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. I fully admit that our sourcing guidelines are draconian, but if they were not, we'd have to trust random people to be giving us correct information, which is not a good idea. What Jimbo said is irrelevant. -Amark moo! 15:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. There was a consensus to delete, and the article as it stood did not clearly and unambiguously demonstrate notability. If there exists enough notable material about this person, then write a better article in userspace somewhere, and when it would undeniably pass notability standards, reintroduce it. However, I believe process was duly followed and thus do not feel it should be overturned. -- Avi 16:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion; valid closure. Anyway, I believe the main criteria for establish notability is that behind guidelines like WP:PROF: it's not imporant where you publish, it's important whether your work is considered significant by others. In this particular case, I don't see where this has been established. Tizio 17:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion My prior comments were primarily aimed at trying to find a better reason for overturning than had been offered to date, which I did not consider adequate. The argument from Jimbo is very weak; in the AFD the first person to bring that fact up thought it only enough basis for a comment, not for a keep opinion. I think there evaluation of its significance is more accurate than Phil's. I can't help contrasting this case with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeff Jacoby where all the opinions except the nominator's were keep, and we found a Slate article by somebody else in which Jacoby was a primary subject (and plenty of other sources about that incident). Nobody seems able to find any independent reliable sources about this person, and our well established general consensus across all topics is that notability comes from other people noticing you, not from self-publicity. This is why the backup criteria in WP:BIO for authors is that they have "received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work". Authors is authors in any medium, be it online or print, full length books or short reviews. With that recorded general consensus (the current dispute is about the text around the bullet points, not the specifics of the bullet points) of editors who are trying to write an encyclopedia that fulfills all the content policies, including WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V simultaneously in each article, to backup the clear consensus in the AFD, there is no reason to overturn the AFD closure. And, obviously, if someone finds the reliable independent sources that haven't been found to date and creates an article using them, that would be great. Now, if we ever changed our standards and started using the blogosphere as a basis of notability, this would be one of many cases to reopen and examine again, but that is not our current consensus. GRBerry 18:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - The closing administrator of AfD4 concluded that the outcome was delete. After my review of AfD4, this appears to be the correct characterization of the debate outcome. The AfD4 debate itself does not seem to be flawed as just about all the people who weighed in on this issue did a good job of considering both the topic and the article in the context of Wikipedia policy, guidelines, and process. Also, no significant new information has come to light since the deletion. The August 2005 statement by Jimbo is not new. Also, it relates to an AfD (VfD) other than the present AfD4. VfD has changed since Jimbo made that statement back in August 2005, so I am unsure whether the context of his statement has significance towards AfD4. Thus, I endorse the deletion outcome. -- Jreferee 18:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - Whether he is considered significant by others has not been established by multiple independent reliable sources. WAS 4.250 20:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MSK-008_Dijeh

Several articles were listed in this AfD at once; let it be said that I am contesting the outcome of the deletion of the MSK-008_Dijeh and RMS-106_Hi-Zack; the other articles were indeed unsourced and with little or no real world impact that I could ascertain. Anyway. These articles were nominated for deletion due to being "unsourced and non-notable fancruft with original research". Upon discovering this AfD, I have sourced the relevant articles including specific citations of "original research" from official or semi-official sources (quite excessively, I might add) and was presently re-writing the jumbled text of the article itself when it was summarily deleted. I and others in favor of keeping the article believe that our rationale were given no weight or ignored entirely. This is demonstrated by the deletion of the article despite the original AfD criteria no longer being relevant, as well as the fact that apparently I and the other "keep" votes were "members of the project." I presume this is in reference to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gundam, which I am not a member of. Furthermore, I was not aware that being in a WikiProject, for whatever reason, was grounds for having one's rationale in an AfD debate be discarded. This AfD was conducted as a head count, and nothing more.MalikCarr 01:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn I pretty much agree with this. I helped provide some sourcing to two of the articles, which was objected to despite the fact that they followed the correct policies for such things as far as I can tell. When User:Malikcarr provided some examples of many other articles that have similar sourcing, his argument was simply brushed aside. Furthermore, I would like to point out that fancruft is an essay and not a policy, and thus is not a valid reason for nominating anything for deletion. Jtrainor 01:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn I was actually putting up my own entry on this for this, but you beet me to it. The reasoning that the closing admin used has me troubled. It appears that he discounted all of the keep or merge comments because they were from members of WP:GUNDAM. Why should comments from a WikiProject be discounted so long as they give solid arguments? At best, this appears to be to be a no consensus once the WP:GUNDAM comments are taken into account. --Farix (Talk) 01:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn I agree as well. The Dijeh and Hi-Zack are both intrinsic parts of the Zeta Gundam universe that have been fleshed out to extreme detail by the developers of the show, through liscences with video game corporations and technical manuals of Bandai produced model kits. There is plenty of reliable information and source material for these particular articles, and the only real argument against it could possibly be that it is taking too much attention to detail, and is unnecessary. This line of reasoning might as well say that individual articles on breeds of dogs are unnecessary, and that there should only be a central article on dog breeding on wikipedia. That is silly, and so is deleting these articles.149.142.119.170 01:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Deletion Review isn't a reargument of the AFD, but whether the closing admin reached the proper conclusion based on the comments of the AFD. If you read the comments above, you will see how we are disputing the reasoning the admin used in closing the AFD and not with the reasons behind the AFD. --Farix (Talk) 01:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment My intention was to point out that the closing admin could only have used the logic that the articles in question were trivial and unnecessary in reaching his conclusion to close the AFD, and that that sort of a logic should not have been brought to the matter. However, I primarily agree that whether or not one sides supporters are members of WP:GUNDAM should have nothing to do with the subject, as per User:MalikCarr's assertion. Also I'd like to apologize for the change of IP, I'm currently at my university and they don't always have a static IP.128.97.146.224 03:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse perfectly reasonable closure. I didn't see any of the keep voters bringing forth multiple non-trivial published works about the "ENG-001 Estardoth" - because there aren't any. Now, without re-arguing the deletion debate, either point to such evidence having been presented, or just accept the deletion. - Tragic Baboon (banana receptacle) 02:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If you had read my review request above, you would have found that I am only supporting the recreation of two articles. The one you mentioned is indeed unsourced, and until I can find references for it, it's likely going to stay deleted. With that in mind I believe you should re-evaluate your decision, since there -were- "multiple non-trivial published works" about the other items in question. MalikCarr 02:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. No policy reason was given for the deletion, and the original arguments did not even apply. Pretty straightforward. --- RockMFR 02:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - RockMFR's statement cannot be taken at face value, and quite practically are a deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. Policy reasons were VERY clearly given. It failed WP:RS since the only sources given were amazon.co.jp links to catalogues full of Gundams. It failed WP:OR in that most of the articles, outside of the existance of a line of toys, speculated on in-universe matters without a single source and utilized conjecture. It failed WP:V for most of the discussion. MalikCarr made good efforts on some of the articles to provide links to model kits and the like, which at least provided some verifiability, and he is only requesting recreation of the articles he attempted to improve. While I understand the frustration some members feel about the closure, and the reason given for the AfD's closure, I can't let statements like that stand. --Elar a girl^Talk|Count 04:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The "amazon.co.jp links to catalogues full of Gundams" source you are so eager to do away with contains all the relevant information pertinent to the mecha in question's in-universe statistics, operators and usage, as well as the factual design artists, and in some cases illustrates the creation of the mecha from rough drafts to what was approved for the animation. I apologize for not being able to provide an equivalent English-language publication, but that goes with the territory with this being a Japanese creation and all. Are you suggesting that, since it is not in English, it is not reliable? I'd really like to assume otherwise. Additionally, the "verifiability" claims as well as those with original research have been refuted for a majority of contested points, and once the two articles in question are restored, I will clean up the points that were not directly stated at sources such as Bandai America's GundamOfficial.com website. If that isn't reasonable enough, then the only conclusion I am left with is WP:IDONTLIKEIT since, at this point, the thing has been sourced to death. MalikCarr 05:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure The only weak issue I see here as a complaint with the closure, and that is afterall the only issue to review here, is that the AfD consensus was borderline and was closed about 8 hours before the 5-day recommended AfD discussion period. However, I don't see this issue as sufficient to overturn the closure. —Doug Bell ^talk 11:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure; AfD apparently closed per consensus/policy; 4⅔ days is "about five days". "Worse stuff exists" is on the WP:ILIKEIT list. If editors want an article on these, write one, but avoid {{OR}}, {{unref}}, and {{inuniverse}}. WP:FORGET is likely to help in writing new, compliant articles. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: As has been stated, this is not a discussion on the merits of the AfD; we are discussing the fact that it has been STATED for all the world to see that project membership is a valid reason for a closing admin to discount dissenting opinions. Last I checked, that was neither concensus nor policy. Additionally, it would seem that some in favor of maintaining this unjust action have not fully read my review request. I encourage individuals on both sides of this issue to fully read the request. MalikCarr 18:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment: Unforutnately, fly-by opiners that don't do their research are a too common phenomenon, though usually more in AFD than here (because usually few people are here, and the volume here is low). Hopefully the closing admin will disregard completely unrelated opinions, like saying article X should stay deleted when you asked for Y and Z undeleted. GRBerry 19:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Comment: Let's hope. MalikCarr 19:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Comment My concern is that the closing admin apparently devalued the comments of some of the editors based on a perceived association with a WikiProject in order to reach his conclusion that there was a consensus to delete. Unfortunately, the endorsers aren't touching this or explaining why this should be "ok". Doesn't the statement, "the fact that the only people who think these should be kept are those in the project, tips the balances" not ring any alarm bells? And if this was such a close call, why not give it the benefit of the doubt and give it the remaining 8 hours that it should have had? That makes the closing appear all the more dubious. At the very least, the AFD should be reopened to run the remaining 8 hours. --Farix (Talk) 19:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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 Please notify the administrator who performed the action that you wish to be reviewed by leaving {{subst:DRVNote|page name}} on their talk page.-->
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 :{{la|Solar_Empire}} <tt>(</tt>[[Special:Undelete/Solar_Empire|restore]]<tt>&#124;</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Solar_Empire|AfD]]<tt>)</tt>
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 Again, sorry for being disagreeable, but I hate bureautwats. If you want something constructive to do - [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types|try starting here]] :-p