Talk:Canada convoy protest

VANDALISM

This page is sure to generate a bunch of vandalism over the coming days as people attempt to form an online narrative about the protest. Please keep all items factual, unbiased and cited appropriately from reputable sources. Also, keep copies of controversial items here in the Talk page for restoration if the page is vandalized. Matt Austin (talk) 06:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

STOP allowing the "extremism" claims through onto the page, this is undermining this movement and is completely unacceptable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.44.108.215 (talk) 15:36, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Unbiased" Lol. This is Wikipedia. Your version of "defacement" of a statue is hanging a flag and sign from it. Anyone who has spent ANY time on Twitter or Youtube watching actual footage of the protest knows that this article is a load of crap. It's just parroting the mainstream media's false narrative. There has been no violence, no looting, no burning, no hate. That's the truth. So you can bunker this article all you like; it changes nothing. Everyone who cares to know what really happened isn't going to come here to see it. 24.66.34.97 (talk) 21:47, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Another reminder that Wikipedia is not a FORUM. CaffeinAddict (talk) 22:18, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

'Civil conflict' infobox incorrect & overly inflammatory language.

• Removing 'civil conflict' - this is a stated peaceful protest, and the language used here connotes violence, which has not occurred. To date The Government of Canada and Canada Unity are not involved in military or paramilitary action against one another.Carlcarlsonvt (talk) 01:06, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

• Agree - not a civil war with defined sides Matt Austin (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

All protests use the civil conflict infobox. CaffeinAddict (talk) 18:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The truth

• Wish everyone would do proper research. The convoy is NOT just about the vaccine mandate. It’s about a our freedoms and rights that Trudeau is skinning from us Canadians!!!!! If we don’t speak up, we won’t be heard. 209.52.88.75 (talk) 02:43, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

• The original intent of convoy was to protest the cross-border proof-of-vaccine requirements which went into effect for Canada on January 15, 2022. If the intent of the convoy has now changed then update it under the Stated Belief section. Matt Austin (talk) 05:03, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

A reminder that wikipedia is WP:NOTFORUM. CaffeinAddict (talk) 07:06, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Links to Alt-Right Groups

I've included the associations which are known to different groups and their sources. Some IP users are vandalizing or removing it. Matt Austin (talk) 05:15, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add to the section as you discover more.

• Yellow Vests Canada - Tamara Lich - Convoy spokeswoman and chief fundraiser - Involved with Yellow Vests Canada during protests in 2019. The Yellow Vests movement was widely seen as a platform for hate-based alt-right groups. The Facebook page for the convoy has also shared content from Wexit co-founder and Yellow Vest organizer Patrick King who has previously hosted counter-protests to anti-racism rallies, spread covid-19 misinformation and Great Replacement conspiracy.
• Maverick Party - Western Separatist group formerly known as Wexit Canada. Tamara Lich is Secretary for the party.
• Action 4 Canada - A member of the Canada Unity group inside the Freedom Convoy - Islamophobic and anti-LGBTQ conspiracy group with webpages about the dangers of political Islam, health consequences of 5G technology and underreporting of adverse vaccine reactions. Founded by Tanya Gaw who actively supported the Yellow Vests protests of 2019.

References

Extremist Communications

Added the following below to the main page to document extremist communications surrounding the protest. Statements are cited. Matt Austin (talk) 05:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

In the lead-up to the planned arrival in Ottawa, it was reported on January 25 that far-right and white-supremacist groups within the loosely-associated Freedom Convoy were hoping for violence on Parliament Hill and insurrection akin to the 2021 United States Capitol attack. This has caused organizer Tamara Lich to address convoy members and denounce violence.

Government Responses

As a result of identified extremist groups taking part in the protest, Ottawa City Councillor Katherine McKenney issued a statement denouncing the extremist elements as xenophobic-promoting militant racist, sexist and homophobic.

References

Operation Bear Hug

This is a Canada Unity Operation which intends to remove all vaccine mandates and fines and reinstate employees who were terminated due to vaccination status as outlined in the MOU. Does anyone have any more info on this? Matt Austin (talk) 16:22, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Freedomconvoy 2022

Wikipedia the way you have portrayed this focuses on all the right things. Of course you are trying to smear it. The truckers are protesting the end of ALL covid mandates for all Canadians. This group supports all people and races and is for everyone, that’s right from their go fund me page. Why don’t you read their mission statements? 74.96.190.99 (talk) 07:27, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"The truckers are protesting the end of ALL covid mandates for all Canadians." - Please provide a reliable source. Gofundme is not accepted. SystemEff (talk) 14:13, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Not a soapbox

This page is for discussing improvements to this Wikipedia article. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; any further personal attacks or off-topic discussions about editors' opinions of the topic will result in editors being blocked from editing. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:30, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Truck count estimate

Per [1], "There are estimates the Canadian convoy could comprise 50,000 trucks from the West, East, and even from the United States.". Do we have better source on the total count of trucks? I wonder if they added an extra 0 by mistake, because 5000 is plausible, but 50000 seems unrealistic. SystemEff (talk) 01:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The 50,000 estimate was directly from one of the organizers and has never been confirmed. OPP in Kenora stated 200-300 moved through their location on Tuesday night. I cited that in the main article. Matt Austin (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Like I said in a few edit summaries, the claims from the organizers are so implausible as to be inappropriate to include even if we gave proper attribution. Their estimate of 50,000 trucks is more than the largest truck convoy ever recorded by a factor of 100. One of the organizers claimed that the convoy is over 70km long and that he measured it from an airplane, which is an obvious fabrication since he claimed that before any of the convoys had actually gathered, and any of the convoys that have been independently observed have been much smaller. I also doubt that you could even see an object the size of a truck 35km out the side of an aircraft at cruise altitude. The only plausible independent estimate I've seen is the Ottawa Police's plan to handle 2,000 protesters over the weekend, but even that is not an estimate of the number of trucks involved. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:11, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The source I provided last night from Thunder Bay News Watch cited the OPP with an estimate of "400 vehicles in the convoy that crossed into Ontario from Manitoba Tuesday night". That seems to be the best estimate currently. Note that it says vehicles and not trucks - from my understanding it's not just trucks in the convoy. This does not include whatever trucks are coming from the maritimes. The other source in the article says police in Ottawa are prepared for 2,000 people to protest on Saturday. But that's just a best guess. [2] CaffeinAddict (talk) 14:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I removed that estimate. It's a good estimate of the number of trucks coming from the west, but more are coming from the east. I'm looking for a source on that now; CBC PEI reported this morning that 70 vehicles crossed the bridge, but many of them turned around at the visitor centre in New Brunswick and headed right back. No numbers in that article on how many were trucks nor how many carried on to Moncton. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

More on this: CBC Nova Scotia reports that "10 to 15" trucks left Enfield this morning around 7am bound for the New Brunswick border. CBC New Brunswick reports that five (5) trucks left Aulac for Ottawa this morning, but didn't give a time. I can't tell if the 10-15 joined with the 5, or if 5 was the total that continued on from both groups, and also can't tell what happened to the PEI group. CBC London is also reporting that two groups from southwestern Ontario are getting together and plan to leave London at noon (in a few minutes, 17:00 UTC) but no estimate of numbers. There was also talk of a Newfoundland group, no idea where they are. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ivanvector It looks like the truck number was updated again in the infobox - the Arnprior article has a unconfirmed estimate of 600 trucks going to Arnprior tonight before heading to Ottawa in the morning. Should this be taken down given it's not confirmed? Matt Austin (talk) 02:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Probably, but it's a developing situation and new editors are probably going to keep adding other estimates if we keep removing them. What's there now is better sourced, but still not complete. There should be better counts of the actual participation after today and then we can update. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:40, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Ivanvector Matt R Austin that was me on the most recent edit. It kept reappearing but it was wildly overstated. I'm indifferent to it being taken down or left up at the moment. Like Ivanvector said, a truer count will most likely be reported by the media by the end of the day. CaffeinAddict (talk) 13:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

For what it is worth, "Figures obtained by CTV News show 104,000 trucks crossed the border into Canada in the last week. That's down about four per cent from the same period in 2019, before the pandemic and before the vaccine mandate." https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-decries-fringe-views-of-some-in-trucker-convoy-as-police-prepare-for-its-arrival-in-ottawa-1.5755674 SystemEff (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Snopes says the 50000 figure is false. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/freedom-convoy-guinness/ SystemEff (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Snopes cites this to be a realistic estimate "David Akin, the chief global correspondent with Global News, cited a report from the Ontario Provincial Police that 113 trucks (as well as 276 personal vehicles) were recorded coming into Thunder Bay from Winnipeg. " SystemEff (talk) 03:13, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Kingston Police reported on Twitter at 9:45AM EST on 28Jan2022 the following #'s:

• full tractor trailers
• 104 tractors w no trailers
• 424 passenger vehicles
• 6 RVs

For the record, an editor is reverting an important figure regarding estimates. See Talk:Freedom_Convoy_2022#Selective_removal_of_timeline_updates and [3]. Specifically,

* "Ottawa Police expect approximately 2,000 vehicles and 5,000 pedestrians in Ottawa on January 29th" SystemEff (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Unsourced line likely caused by confusion between highway and number of vehicles

The claim "Ontario Provincial Police estimated approximately 400 vehicles had entered Ontario from the Manitoba border as part of the eastbound convoy" is unsourced as source 17 reads as "[1]." Upon searching for a possible source, it is may be possible that the number was confused for Ontario Highway 400, with which the OPP have made statements about being part of the route (https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/drivers-warned-of-significant-traffic-delays-on-highways-as-trucker-convoy-enters-ontario-1.5755535 and https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opp-truckers-convoy-gta-traffic-disruptions-1.6329308). If there is no conflict, I will be removing the aforementioned line. --ZachT1234 (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

That error is my fault. The reference was defined in a different part of the article, which I removed (see above) but didn't restore the code for the source, which led to the cite error you saw. That source does indeed say: "Ontario Provincial Police said there were almost 400 vehicles in the convoy that crossed into Ontario from Manitoba Tuesday night." Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:45, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

on that note - Ivanvector - I noticed you removed the current convoy count from the lede. I understand it’s probably too early to tabulate but I think it is an important piece of the overall article if it is or can ever be somewhat accurately measured or estimated by independent sources. CaffeinAddict (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I addressed that in the "truck count estimate" section above - basically it was not accurate to call it a "convoy of nnn trucks" based on a source that was quoting one count at one of several locations. It might be useful to add the cited individual counts in the timeline section where chronological details are landing now, but I think we should wait until Saturday or later for a true count from the actual event, and then figure out how to incorporate that into the lede. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:11, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Validity of Action4Canada official website?

Would the official website of Action4Canada be a valid source for information regarding routes and other factual information? I understand that the opinion and call-to-action element is not valid for Wikipedia, bit I feel as though some elements could be used as a source, especially regarding a possible future routes section. --ZachT1234 (talk) 17:51, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

No. CaffeinAddict (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARY is the relevant guideline, see bullet #3 in particular. I think it would be okay to use that site for info on where the group plans to travel and meet up, in the short term, but it will be better to replace that with independent sources once there are some. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Vaccine passports vs mandates

I noticed the term mandates has been wikilinked to the Vaccine Passports article (coincidentally a page I contributed to heavily) - isn't there a difference? I guess the mandate to come into the states is a passport I guess. The passport article mainly focused on it's use internally in a jurisdiction not a way to get into a country. This page exists - COVID-19 vaccination mandates in the United States but it's mainly focused on the US. Sorry if I'm being pedantic but appreciate some thoughts on this. CaffeinAddict (talk) 00:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I personally think there should be a dedicated COVID-19 vaccination mandates article, and then we link to it. SystemEff (talk) 02:27, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Image

I think we need a better image, preferably one with multiple trucks. An example [4]. SystemEff (talk) 02:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Here [5] is a video showing the impressive line up of vehicles and trucks. And another. [6] SystemEff (talk) 02:48, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

images on Wikipedia need to be particular Creative Commons licenses. CaffeinAddict (talk) 04:15, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Mandates not introduced by the "Government of Canada"

The "Government of Canada" is Parliament. The mandates on vaccination for truckers, aviation, and marine vessels was not a bill passed in parliament, which would be voted on by all members and become a Government of Canada legislation. Instead, these mandates are made by Order-in-Council, which is a decree by Liberal Party of Canada ministers and do not involve the government/parliament (which includes all elected parties). The article should state that the measures were introduced by Orders-in-Council made by members of Liberal Party of Canada under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's direction. Cdnshipsnote (talk) 06:31, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Source: https://orders-in-council.canada.ca/attachment.php?attach=41406&lang=en Cdnshipsnote (talk) 06:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Good point.--Tallard (talk) 18:20, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

HEADS UP: This Movement May Become International

I have recently come across this advertisement of a "European Freedom Convoy" that was posted today: https://thelibertyclub.ca/event/european-freedom-convoy-lets-get-organized-join-us-on-telegram/2022-01-27/

It also includes an American Convoy. Says that more details ought to be released about these other convoys at some later time. I ought to leave out speculation and await to see how seriously these other convoys are taken. W.C Cross (talk) 07:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Update: I had just spoken with one of the organizers of the American Convoy and she had just told me that they are planning out the routes and are taking this seriously. It seems that this international movement may very well be legitimate. Time will tell if these other convoys manifest themselves. W.C Cross (talk) 08:23, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

It already started happening in a few places,

- Italy[7].

- Brazil[8]

SystemEff (talk) 14:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

GoFundMe as source

Should we use gofundme /f/taking-back-our-freedom-convoy-2022 as the source for the fund numbers? Seems more accurate than any other source to me. SystemEff (talk) 15:14, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Not unless we can also cite an independent source, of which there are plenty. The problem is that Gofundme doesn't necessarily show the accurate total at any time, what you see is an approximation based on recent activity. Each time you reload the page you'll probably see a different number, and if you do it long enough you'll notice that the number doesn't always increase, which is what you'd expect from a fundraiser. It being a different number each time you reload is also problematic as a reliable source: if I say that the total as of this edit is $7,239,510, then by the time you check, my edit will fail verification. It's basically the same reason we don't use YouTube or Instagram or TikTok as primary sources for follower counts, for example. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Stated Beliefs Section

Matt R Austin Before reverting me again - there was very little in that section that wasn't already laid out in the article. The one paragraph about Canada Unity has been placed in a different section. Come back to it if there's better sourcing than just Justin Ling on twitter. CaffeinAddict (talk) 15:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

SystemEff You too - the information in that section is already in the article. CaffeinAddict (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The "General beliefs" section should stay. It has 3 sources supporting the primary goal of this protest. SystemEff (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The information in that section was moved to other parts of the article. CaffeinAddict (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

SystemEff As a new editor I think you need to be made aware of some of the policies in wikipedia. I won't be reverting that again to avoid the WP:3RR rule. Perhaps Ivanvector can comment. CaffeinAddict (talk) 15:35, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm happy to be corrected on my policy understanding. But as far as I understand, a long standing version cannot be deleted en masse with 1 person agreeing, and 2+ people disagreeing, and with no clear consensus in the talk page. Shouldn't we wait for other people to chip in here? SystemEff (talk)

The exact same info, reiterated is in the "background" section. That's why I removed it. It's literally already in the article. I'm not removing anything. So go read it - see that it's essentially the same info, and then I'll be removing it. The section had no substance to it. CaffeinAddict (talk) 15:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I see it, yes - but that is except the "General beliefs" section, along with the 3 sources. Anyway, I've consolidated both sections.[9] Do you agree with this? SystemEff (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Great so after all that you essentially just did what I did last night. CaffeinAddict (talk) 15:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

No, your change had also removed the 3 sources (after the sentence "The protest calls for the end of vaccine mandates in Canada during the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic."). SystemEff (talk) 15:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't have any particular input on this, but I'm not used to seeing a plain section basically republishing the organization's manifesto. Personally I do think it would be better off incorporated into the background section. I don't think any of it should be expunged from the article altogether. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Trudeau in isolation

On January 27, Justin Trudeau said he is isolating after exposure to COVID-19 and tested negative for the virus..

This was reverted.[10] I believe it is relevant, and should be mentioned because Trudeau will not be available during the weekend protest. SystemEff (talk) 15:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@SystemEff: we have a strict policy forbidding publishing harmful material about living persons unless it is directly relevant and very well sourced, which you violated by piping your link to "Justine Trudeau". A few years ago there was a browser script which automatically changed "Trump" to "Drumpf" which also substituted in the Wikipedia editor, and led to a number of innocent blocks of people who weren't intending to publish the error. If you are using something like that, I strongly suggest you turn it off. If this was an inadvertent mistake then I apologize, however if you do it again you will be blocked from editing to enforce the policy.

I am wary of including this, the source does not say he will not meet with the convoy because of his self-isolation, and otherwise it's not relevant to the protest. I believe there have been other sources that have said he was already not planning to meet the protesters for more relevant reasons, which we should include, but based on current sourcing I think it's WP:SYNTH for us to imply that he's not going because he's self-isolating. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

References

I don't even know what you are talking about regarding "Justine Trudeau" (with an "e"). Which change in particular are you referring to? SystemEff (talk) 19:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh this [11]. That must be an auto-complete mistake. The way you phrased "you violated by" suggests intention on my part. Please don't assume malice without evidence. SystemEff (talk) 19:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, "if you do it again you will be blocked from editing to enforce the policy." - this is the most stupidest threat I have received. What are you talking about? If I make another auto-completion error, you will block me? What in the fuck? SystemEff (talk) 19:31, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

In regards to your second paragraph, why not state the fact without suggesting "because of"? Something along the lines of, "Trudeau, who is isolating due to COVID-19 exposure, will not be available at the capital for the next 4 days". It is quite relevant that the leader of the country will be missing. SystemEff (talk) 19:35, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Political science perspective

"Political science professor Duane Bratt joins Global News Morning Calgary to discuss the politics behind the truckers’ “freedom convoy” protest against COVID-19 mandates." [12] SystemEff (talk) 15:50, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

James Bauder's personal extremism

A new article appeared today outlining Bauder's own support for QAnon, arresting Justin Trudeau for "treason", and misinformation surrounding the 2020 US election: Vice article

Also relevant: a 2015 article on Benjamin Dichter's Islamophobia and racism: True North Times article Doogie2K (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

We have to be careful about publishing negative information about people who are not notable (see WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy and WP:LOWPROFILE). I think the link about Bauder is relevant, as it is written so as to directly relate to the topic of this article. I'm not as sure about the 2015 article about Dichter; he's involved, but that article is seven years old. True North Times is also not a sufficiently reliable source for this, as it describes itself as "everything funny in Canadian politics", and regularly posts memes instead of news. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Official Site Link?

Is there one official site for this? If so, it would be good to add at the end of an article. Most Wikipedia articles link to an official page. https://freedomfighternation.org/freedom-convoy comes up searching, but I can't find a clear confirmation of this. This site has some pretty extreme stuff on other pages so I would not think it fair to link it if not official. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 20:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Most articles about protests and protest movements do not in fact have a central authority so there are not links to anything of the like. For example Black Lives Matter protests in New York City or 2021 United States Capitol attack. CaffeinAddict (talk) 20:52, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

There have been several websites set up claiming to be the "official" website, none of them authoritative, and in that case it's probably best not to include any of them. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Canada Unity is the de facto organizer of the protest. They have a website where they have organized people and a forum which has some very peculiar topics and discussions. Link: Canada Unity Matt Austin (talk) 02:21, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, CaffeinAddict, I am not so familiar with protest articles: this has not been the focus of my editing. I was speaking more generally as most other Wikipedia pages link to the organization or official website of the person in question, even for highly controversial stuff like hate groups, and Wikipedia is usually helpful for determining which is the official site. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 02:33, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah - well I don't think there is any "official" site because it's not a very clearly put together movement for obvious reasons. CaffeinAddict (talk) 04:45, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Live coverages of protest

• https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trucker-convoy-canada-freedom-ottowa-b2002815.html
• https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/covid-19-freedom-convoy-2022-news

SystemEff (talk) 23:12, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Source of "90% are vaccinated"

Trudeau's comment in an impromptu talk with press representatives does not constitute a "reliable source." Unless some kind of report from a credible agency can be cited to support the claim, I am inclined to remove it from the lede, perhaps deeper into the article, and to clearly state that it is Trudeau's as-yet UNVERIFIED claim. Without that, claiming that their vaccination rate is higher than the general public is a rather extraordinary claim. It requires more than Trudeau's word, invented as he scuttled out of the capital.

Similarly, implying that all of the protesters come from the remaining 10% "fringe" is likewise misleading, as a significant portion of those attending ARE vaccinated.

This article needs serious work, as it cutrently reads as an endorsement of the government's position. It clearly is not NPOV. Wilford Nusser (talk) 10:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

This claim is repeated across multiple news sources. So we shouldn't remove it. But we can attribute it to whoever said it. SystemEff (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

The claim (aka measurable statistical data) is corroborated by industry groups and the Ministry of Transport. CaffeinAddict (talk) 13:23, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Not doubting those groups, but where is the statistical data itself? This is what ideally we want to be linking to. One of your sources go to a tweet by Omar Alghabra, who doesn't cite any official statistics. The reuters source also qualifies the statement with "Industry officials say" without any other direct reference. All of this could simply be a regurgitation of Trudeau's statement, but we would never know without official statistics. SystemEff (talk) 13:26, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, we can do this better. The 90% figure is a quote from Trudeau referring to the CTA's data, but the CTA themselves say 85%. The quotes should be attributed. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

120,000 truck drivers?

The numbers are wrong in the lede, and likely elsewhere in the body. There are over 300,000 truck drivers in Canada, not 120,000. More likely the CTA represents 120,000 truckers.[13][14][15] - Floydian ^τ _¢ 14:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. A lot of different numbers are being thrown around: 120,000 drivers in Canada, 160,000 cross-border drivers in both countries, 16,000 Canadians affected by the mandate, and so on. The Truck News article is from before the pandemic and I wouldn't count on it. CBC doesn't say where its 300,000 stat comes from, and that is long-haul truckers, not all truckers. I used to drive a cross-border route but was definitely not long-haul. Maybe that number is truckers who drive in Canada, not just Canadian drivers?

The CTA just this week published stats ([16]) that there are 732,800 employees in the Canadian trucking industry but doesn't say how many of those are drivers. StatsCan has 742,497 employees in transportation and warehousing as of 2020 ([17]) but only seems to have more specific stats on drivers as of 2010 ([18]): 128,429 salaried drivers plus 54,086 owner-operators. So where do we go from here? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps "sources vary as to the number of truck drivers in Canada, with estimates ranging from 120,000(CTA source) to 300,000.(CBC or archived StatsCan 2015 numbers)"? - Floydian ^τ _¢ 18:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

From my understanding there would also be a difference in independently owned commercial vehicles and drivers who are employees of a larger trucking company. CaffeinAddict (talk) 18:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Selective removal of timeline updates

Unfortunately User:CaffeinAddict is engaging in yet another edit war. This time their rationale is WP:NOTNEWS which says in particular "including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate". CaffeinAddict went for a 2nd revert anyway[19] without explaining why, other than a meaningless "You don't have to add every update." So who gets to choose what to add or exclude and on what basis? The content this editor removed contains important and relevant details like "Ottawa Police expect approximately 2,000 vehicles and 5,000 pedestrians in Ottawa on January 29th". I'd like to hear other editors' opinions on this change. SystemEff (talk) 16:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

This editor now also (uncharitably) asks me to "step back for a while"[20]. All the more reason for other editors to chip in here. SystemEff (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

It’s not an edit war - I’m not constantly reverting you. You are dominating edits right now though. I don’t think it needs to be heavily discussed every trivial and unimportant item you add to the article. CaffeinAddict (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Just for the record, you consider "Ottawa Police expect approximately 2,000 vehicles and 5,000 pedestrians in Ottawa on January 29th" to be "trivial and unimportant"? What is considered not "trivial and important" to you? Pick any existing estimation from the "Convoy movements" section and let me know. SystemEff (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd say both additions by SystemEff are worthy of inclusion at this moment. It's better to compile information in the now and trim it after the fact if it changes or becomes irrelevant to the bigger picture. If we're going to build up with "Police warning people to stay away, prepared to arrest law breakers", we should logically follow with either "which never materialised" or "arrests were made". - Floydian ^τ _¢ 17:03, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm between both positions on this. This is an ongoing event and new developments are happening continuously, but at the same time we're not a live blog, and initial news reports are often incorrect on things like this and very careful scrutiny is warranted. However, as long as nothing goes up that's clearly fabricated or goes against WP:BLP, we can let things happen and decide how to deal with it later, probably in a couple days when the protest has concluded and the media narrative stabilizes. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:12, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

it doesn’t seem (in my mind) to need to be said that no unlawful activity has occurred at a protest. Protests happen all the time without incident. Commentary by the police I’m neutral on. CaffeinAddict (talk) 17:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's relevant since so many writers predicted that there would be violence owing to the extremist elements, and at least one of the organizers agitating for it to be a repeat of the January 6 insurrection south of the border. It may be too soon to say that none occurred, though. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:50, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I remain neutral on this for the most part, I have remained wary of the article becoming too BREAKING NEWS-like. CaffeinAddict (talk) 18:14, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Promoters

Maybe include Pat King, who was one of the largest supporters of this and include (Personal attack removed) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ C3porice (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

This is the sort of WP:BLP-violating attack that will be met with blocks if they continue. Negative information about living persons must be cited inline where it appears on any page on this website, including talk pages. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Associated complaints and demands from the group -- concerning non-Federal issues

The association that has agglomerated onto the Freedom Convoy has laid a variety of complaints oand demands that have nothing to do with the federal government. This should also be covered in the article, such as local/provincial lockdowns and mandates, which are controlled by the provinces -- 65.92.246.142 (talk)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022

65.95.185.27 (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Speaking to CTV News Channel on Saturday, Private Motor Truck Council of Canada president Mike Millian said surveys the organization has done suggest the number is closer to about 75 per cent. (of truckers are vaccinated)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 21:46, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

The article does read like an endorsement to the government position

I agree with the user above stating that there is no NPOV in this article. For example, it is not mentioned in the lede nor info box nor anywhere that the cause for the protest was the vaccination mandate for the truckers (not the general public) and that there are concerns by business associations and scholars about those mandates.
References:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-mandate-double-down-convoy-1.6326821
https://globalnews.ca/news/8532559/bc-truck-convoy-vaccine-mandate/
Emilija Knezevic (talk) 02:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I see the concerns about timing from some groups in the CBC article, but where are the scholars you claim are concerned? The Dalhousie rep says truckers aren't a homogenous group, there isn't agreement; that she expects the Opposition to take on the cause; the effectiveness of the convoy is in doubt; that the feds gave truckers a lot of time before imposing the mandate, and haven't flip-flopped. She herself doesn't express concern. -- Zanimum (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I will note, at present, the lede has seven references to the word "truck" and its derivatives. -- Zanimum (talk) 03:35, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

As for the reference to the scholars, yes, I think we are pointing to the same person in the globalnews reference, from the Dalhousie, which, as you stated, makes an argument about the diverse group of protesters and their causes, and the possibility of the government taking some action about them (with the help of the Opposition). And that is my point exactly: not that "protesters are wrong, the government is right", but that there may be some valid concerns at least as the initial cause of everything. And if the right-wing anti-vaxers may have jumped at the opportunity to provoke the disobedience to the COVID measures and other radical actions, that may (have) happen(ed), but this is not how it all started.

I would change the first sentence from "COVID-19 vaccine requirements to re-enter the country by land" to something like "COVID-19 vaccine requirements for truck drivers to enter the country", and also put a corresponding change in the info box.

Also, the Canadian Trucking Alliance did not plainly condemn the protests, as can be seen from the globalnews reference: "Members of the trucking industry who want to publicly express displeasure over government policies can choose to hold an organized, lawful event on Parliament Hill or contact their local MP. What is not acceptable is disrupting the motoring public on highways and commerce at the border.” - Emilija Knezevic (talk) 04:01, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Statements by the Canadian Trucking Alliance:

* https://cantruck.ca/canadian-trucking-alliance-statement-to-those-engaged-in-road-border-protests/

* https://cantruck.ca/statement-by-canadian-trucking-alliance-president-on-ottawa-protests/

Emilija Knezevic (talk) 04:44, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2022

207.148.176.160 (talk) 05:10, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

There has been stated to be 2.5 million people on foot and there is 1.8 million vehicles 1.0 million truckers and counting and 800 thousand 4 wheelers

It will continue to grow

 Not done: claims of this sort have already been shown to be grossly exaggerated. See discussions above, or the "misinformation" section of the article. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 05:42, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2022 (2)

change "conducted by truck drivers" to "organized by non-truck drivers allegedly on behalf of truckers, though very few actual truckers have taken part" 47.55.230.108 (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 20:06, 30 January 2022 (UTC)