Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 3

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Daily maps of invasion

I think the article needs daily maps of the front line in the end of each subsection of the section "Invasion": front line map at the end of 24 February 2022 (UTC+2), front line map at the end of 25 February 2022, ... and so on. It will be possible to compare front line changes. The subsection "24 February" had the map; why was it removed? K8M8S8 (talk) 10:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I actually support this, although longer term it might make more sense to just make it an animation of the progression of the invasion. Melmann 10:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree, probably they might be used also in the article Timeline of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine P1221 (talk) 10:37, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

@P1221: @K8M8S8: I made a diagram, we should update it every day if possible

Animated map of the invasion

MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

@MaitreyaVaruna: Thank you! K8M8S8 (talk) 09:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

@MaitreyaVaruna: But I have some notes. We should use local Ukrainian time (UTC+2). So, 24th February is the date of the beginning of the invasion, not 23rd February. And we should make edit request here, on the talk page, to include your animated map in the article. K8M8S8 (talk) 09:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

May I also suggest that the most comprehensive legend be applied to parts of the animations to aid consistency. --Cdjp1 (talk) 10:14, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate all your updates to the map. Made it a lot more informative @Cdjp1: MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

@MaitreyaVaruna: Thank you very much for the map! P1221 (talk) 17:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Turkish ship attacked

Any clarification on who attacked the Turkish ship and whether it was an accident or intentional? Brookline Fire buff (talk) 21:44, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Almost certainly it was Russian, and probably a mistake. Backsplatter/bystander casualty of the 'fog of war.' An RS will give a detailed report on this sooner or later - Wiki can wait.50.111.36.47 (talk) 06:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Would this incident give Turkey grounds to invoke Article 5 ("An attack on one is an attack on all") of the NATO Treaty which would justify the NATO countries to intervene in the war? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 13:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Pleae read wp:forum. Slatersteven (talk) 13:37, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

There should probably be a new section on foreign casualties for this and the other vessels (currently Japanese & Moldovan) which have been attacked beyond just the infobox listing. Nvidia has reportedly also been hacked in conjunction with all this - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/02/25/us-microchip-powerhouse-nvidia-hit-cyber-attack/. - Indefensible (talk) 19:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Great idea. Wtoteqw (talk) 17:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Misinformation regarding Kazakhstan's reaction

The following information:

Following its intervention in protests against the government earlier in 2022, Moscow requested that Kazakhstan send troops to assist in the offensive, but Nur-Sultan refused the request, reiterating that it does not recognize the Donetsk and Luhansk separatists

Is completely false. Russia never requested troops from Kazakhstan. The only official statement from Kazakhstan at the moment is below:

Senate Speaker Ashimbayev: The conflict zone is not in the territory of CSTO member states. Therefore, Kazakhstan does not have the right under these treaties, under ratified agreements, to send peacekeepers within the CSTO to a conflict zone. "But if any situation arises and a decision is made at the UN level within the UN mandate, Kazakhstan can send peacekeepers to any point in the world if there is a decision to do so," Ashimbayev said.

Which is quite different from what the text in the article says. The fact of misinformation was confirmed by Zakon.kz in its telegram blog (In Russian). The NBC article does not have any references mentioned, what kind of credible sourcing is that? The recognition of Donestk and Luhansk was never even mentioned.

Which is why this text needs to be removed from the Other countries and international organizations to avoid misinformation. If somebody has the rights to do so, please do accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fl7wless (talk • contribs) 15:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

What is Zakon.Kz? Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

It is more or less a reputable news agency in Kazakhstan, publishing political and legislative news. If that is not enough, factcheck.kz has analysed the misinformation and concluded:

In line with editorial methodology, we conclude that the story is a manipulation. A clickbait was used in the headline, the source data does not correspond to that presented in the story, the author of the distortion does not rely on verifiable sources - there is no evidence of Russia's request to use Kazakhstani peacekeepers in the Russian-Ukrainian war. The report that Kazakhstan's position was welcomed by the US National Security Council is also not confirmed by open sources at the time of publication; it is only available on the NBC website and in re-publications. We do not exclude that such a statement could have been made, but it is not currently available in other publications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fl7wless (talk • contribs) 15:48, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

So it is not in fact an official arm of the government, so what they say is not official government statements. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that NBC has an equal level of credibility with the KZ government hand when it makes such claims and that its publication, unsupported by any references, should outweigh the arguments of the local news agency and local fact-checking organisation? Are you serious? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fl7wless (talk • contribs) 16:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

NO, I am saying you started this off with a claim "The only official statement from Kazakhstan at the moment is below:", which it was not. As far as I can see there is no statement there denying they were asked for troops, just that they are not sending any. I have no idea bout the reliability of Zakon.kz, and if you want to make an argument based upon another line of reason go ahead. But there has been (as far as I can tell) no official denial they were asked. Slatersteven (talk)

I am saying you started this off with a claim "The only official statement from Kazakhstan at the moment is below, which it was not. Could you read it again and see that there was a statement by the Speaker of the Senate, or see at least one link I shared? NBC article was published today at 06:21 Astana time while the comment from the Senate Speaker dated 24 February 11:59. Do you think the government will comment on every news story in the world? I understand that zakon.kz will raise questions from foreigners, but at least read what factcheck.kz has provided (with translation, of course). Logically, a request by the forces would mean that at least some information would appear in Russian sources about this request, but this is not the case. The Senate speaker was commenting on internal speculation, not an official request from Russia.--Fl7wless (talk) 17:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Foreign support to Ukraine

Oughtn't there be a section about in the article about lethal and non-lethal aid supplied or being promised to the Ukrainians from several Western countries? Right now there is nothing about it, it seems to me a not completely unimportant part of the story considering how much Ukraine has been insisting on it? Yakikaki (talk) 15:43, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Any sources on what that aid is? Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, for example here and here there are news that Belgium, Czechia and Netherlands are sending weapons. Yakikaki (talk) 15:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

OK we can say they are supplying arms. Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, where should we put this info? Do you want to do it or should I go ahead? Yakikaki (talk) 15:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

You go ahead, you have some idea what you want to do with it. Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There should also be a section on foreign aid being supplied to Russia. Do you agree? Wtoteqw (talk) 16:27, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I added something, feel free to move/improve as appropriate. Yakikaki (talk) 16:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I moved it. Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Me too, in a higher spot. Maxorazon (talk) 16:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There should also be a section on foreign aid being supplied to Russia. Do you agree?Wtoteqw (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I will give the same answer as I did above (and below) Any sources on what that aid is?, because without any we can't have a section that is empty of anything. Slatersteven (talk) 16:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Would this and this be good sources? Wtoteqw (talk) 17:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I am having trouble finding where they talk about them sending Russia aid.Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh. If you can’t find where they talk about them sending Russia aid, just use the article as a generic reference. Wtoteqw (talk) 17:14, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

To what purpose, if it does not add anything we do not already say why use it?Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 February 2022 (11)

Change the CNN reference for the Namura Queen to https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-26-22/h_d79d1d542a90f15d7c38c6e3b03d73ab - this permalinks to the correct post in the live feed.

162.212.233.34 (talk) 21:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any reference to the _Namura Queen_ in the article as of now. --\/\/slack (talk) 01:04, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I think that they are referring to the "1 Japanese owned vessels damaged" in the casualties section of the infobox. >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 01:54, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

 Already done - it looks like someone already replaced the URL with the one the anonymous editor suggested. Aoi (青い) (talk) 04:57, 27 February 2022 (UTC)