Talk:Shaolin kung fu

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Shawnc 11:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Shaolin Kung Fu versus Shaolin Wushu

Note, by the Google Test, that the term "Shaolin Kung Fu" in Chinese is actually more widely used than "Shaolin Wushu":

In Simplified Chinese: "少林武術" (Shaolin Wushu) [1]: 256 hits "少林功夫" (Shaolin Kung Fu) [2]: 64,100 hits (250:1)

In Traditional Chinese: "少林武術" (Shaolin Wushu) [3]: 5,650 hits "少林功夫" (Shaolin Kung Fu) [4]: 17,800 hits (3:1)

Also, in English: "Shaolin Wu Shu" OR "Shaolin Wushu" [5]:43,100 hits "Shaolin Kung Fu" OR "Shaolin Kungfu" [6]: 485,000 hits. (11:1)

Shawnc 13:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Current Temple and Order Origins Suspect

According to the work "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text" the current order of monks at Shaolin temple, and the martial arts they practice, were in fact creations of the People's Republic of China. The book makes the claim that the last monks of Shaolin had left the country by 1931 following the destruction of their temples during the Civil War (notably, and historically, the Omei Shan temple was used for artillery practice by Mao and Chiang). While this cannot be proven there are certain inconsistencies with the practice of those monks calling themselves Shaolin and the historic practice, i.e. the emphasis on performance, which, in previous times, would have been anathema. The fact that order is restricted to men, and vegetarian, are also both modern inventions at the least -- the older order in fact was female and male, had female abbotts, and had no prohibitions against the eating of meat.

I cannot say for certain that the current order is in fact fake, but there seems to be enough reasonable doubt to include the caveat in the article. There is in fact an organization in the United States known as the Order of Shaolin Ch'an, the publisher of the aforementioned text, that claims to be the true representatives of Shaolin. They do make a compelling argument and from the limited conversations I, as a former practitioner of modern Shaolin martial arts, have found them to have a fuller conception of what Shaolin Ch'an is; not merely a martial art, but a method of standing meditation for achieving enlightenment. In the light they cast the activities of the modern temple come off as a bit absurd -- staging spectacles and endorsing television shows, for instance. unsigned comment byUser:Kronister, December 7, 2005

Its no secret that the current resurection of the Shaolin temple at Shong Shan was heavily influenced by the PRC govt. Although not influence by monetary reasons (the monks tell me they dont get financial support), the martial art influence from modern wushu is there. Of course the beginning of modern wushu were heavily influenced by the traditional forms. Post-Mao PRC government likes the image of the temple as its sign of its lightening up on religious freedom to gain more acceptance in the world. Plus its great for tourism. This explains in some part all the demonstrations of the current monks.

Having been trained in the current curriculum at Shong Shan, its pretty obvious the martial art influence. The monks I know are trained in both traditional, modern Wushu, Sanda or Sanshou, and even taichi, bagua, and xingyi. Alot of the training practices were lost so the current curriculum was created by piecing together what they knew that survived the culture revolution and the modern forms. I have also trained in "traditional" northern shaolin, and i do notice differences & similarities. The absence of Tan Tui form in the current curriculum was the most noticeable. One similarity is the Wu Bu Quan form. Some of the traditional forms of the current curriculum do match up with the traditional forms taught outside of china from pre-revolution lineages. I also know of traditional martial art masters that have incorporated the modern wushu in their curriculum now. The current monks also specialize in certain areas , the fighting monks that is, such as traditional, sanda, wushu, or qigong.

So i guess in summary, the current training at the temple is not the traditional training in terms of curriculum or even type of training. However, the monks ive seen from the current temple still have ridiculous amounts of skill. It still blows me away to see them demonstrate. So while the forms may not be the same, i think they still live up to the shaolin kungfu reputation. In the end, the kung fu isnt the forms or styles or the exact way you train. Its the dedication to practice and developement of skill. sorry for being a lil preachy --Blckavnger 18:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Just the idea that you supposedly don't have to be a man or vegetarian to be a shaolin monk sounds like modern day recruitment tactics for modern day western people. I'm not saying it's not true, but we see this all the time nowadays. "My name is John Wing, I'm the true descendant of the last shaolin monk! Oh no you don't have to be buddhist to be a shaolin monk, you can be christian! Here's a membership discount!";) 74.13.204.192 03:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Phil

This topic is more relevant to religion in China today. While you may practice certain religions in China today (unlike the hardcore days of Mao) it is very limited. For example, Catholicism is a recognized religion in PRC (peoples republic of China) however you cannot acknowledge the Pope or the Holy See as the leading bishop in

the Roman Catholic Church. You must acknowledge the bishop of the Chinese Catholicism (i dont remember the official name off the top of my head) as the leader of the whole "church". A similar thing happens in all religions in China including Buddhism. It is more politics than religion, image if you prefer.

however, there were nuns in budhhism, supposdely. in fact some of the more famous martial arts in China were legendary developed by Buddhist nuns (i.e. Wing Chun). I'm not sure about Shaolin specifically, but in general

theres nothing like sex segregation in Budhhism fundamentally. If im wrong just let me know. I dont have a source, just alot of Buddhist friends, particularly Zen (Chan).

i believe you interprated Kronister wrong. "The fact that order is restricted to men, and vegetarian, are also both modern inventions at the least -- the older order in fact was female and male, had female abbotts, and had no prohibitions against the eating of meat." Other words, the current order has placed restriction for appearance and not tradition.--Blckavnger 19:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Correction

I have spent time with some Shaolin monks and they train in a variety of things including the traditional sets, modern wushu performance and sanda (Chinese kickboxing). The spectacles are pretty much classic Chinese folk culture. Itinerant martial artists always performed and were closely linked to the Chinese Opera tradition.

Proposed move

Let's move this to Shaolin kung fu. It's better to avoid parentheses when there's a reasonable alternative. Also, Shaolin Temple is important in martial arts, so "Shaolin (martial arts)" is ambiguous. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 06:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 08:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Not bad. Shawnc 17:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Can someone have a look at this

Can someone have a look at this, it's not based on Pinyin, or wade-giles, but just on the way the words sound: User_talk:Dessydes/To_be_sorted_and_worked_on_later#Shaolin. thanks. Dessydes 16:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone please fix this

The last paragraph under "Northern and Souther Styles". It uses the word "master" to mean at least two things that very much need to be differentiated for the article to make sense. Having no knowledge of Shaolin, I'm not gonna touch it, but somebody needs to make sense of it. Plus the grammar is pretty weak. Looks like a crappy online translation. Powrtoch 01:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

---

16th century

Some scholars believe that martial arts were not practiced at the Shaolin monastery until the 16th century.

I believe you're referring to the work of Stanley Henning, in whch case, his argument is a bit more complicated than that. JFD 19:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

citation requested for the following material

“ These styles imitate the movement of these animals for martial applications. The animals are also often compared to various ways of facing a problem/situation. The Tiger represents the direct and frontal way of approach to a problem. The Crane is innovative/creative approach combined with a sense of humour. The Snake waits for the right opportunity before delivering a fatal strike, which is something like waiting till you gain sufficient strength to solve the problem. The Leopard combines the directness of the Tiger with the fatality of the attack that the Snake possesses. The Dragon style represents a state of meditational calm and peace of mind.

However, both the Northern and Southern styles have one similarity uniting them. They both had eighteen different traditional weapons to master, each classified as either a Long weapon or a Short weapon. Each type contributed nine different weapons. The long weapons include: the Shaolin fork (tiger fork), staff, tri-point doubled edged sword, monk's spade, Zhuihun sword, Chunqiu sword, spear, 9 section whip, and sickles. The short weapons include: Chinese straight sword, Shaolin iron pen, Shaolin hand dart, Da Mo cane, flying dart, broad sword, Shaolin thorn, axe, and the iron flute. Being in the Shaolin means to master all weapons. Being a master includes mastering one of the 18 available weapons. And moving up to grandmaster means to master all 18 weapons, and mastering a long, and also a short weapon. Of all the weapons, the sword is the most important, and given the title "the marshall of all weapons" by Shaolin. While the spears, elegant but deadly had been given the name "the king of all weapons". And lastly, the Shaolin sabre had long gotten its reputation as "the monarch of all weapons". At the time of the Song Dynasty (c. 10th-13th century AD) the number of weapons grew to 120.--Akrylik 12:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

”

JFD 22:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Shoalin Styles

Just an idea: Can we build up a List of Shoalin Styles or something for the See also section of this article? Even if it starts off as a stub. Just a thought. Dessydes 07:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

There are at least 2 problems with this:

• So many styles claim to be Shaolin styles
• According to some classification systems, any style that is not T'ai Chi, Xingyi or Bagua is, by default, a Shaolin style

JFD 08:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Could we start with the assumption that not all styles are Shaolin styles. Then perhaps divide said section into "known" and "suspected/claimed" or something? I have a short list of Shaolin styles in their pinyin, translated by you as a matter of fact (wierd 'cos as I was checking to see who wrote them, Voila! There you were. Thanks again for that by the way). Anyway, as I was saying, perhaps we could use that as a starting point. Dessydes 05:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Although its a nice idea, i think the politics and the discussion of which styles or forms are "shaolin" would be too daunting. Plus, any historical reference to claim lineage to one of the Shaolin temples would be debated too long for encyclopediac information. Some people just refer to Taoist or Buddhist arts. some northern or southern. others by mountains Song Shang, Wudang, Emei, etc.. Plus with all the mixing between arts and even the shaolin monks blending their arts with others (supposdly) i think it would be too hard. i think this wiki should not focus too much on the various styles of shaolin and more of its origins and traditions and perhaps its current state. but thats just my 2 cents --Blckavnger 18:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Wong Kiew Kit

i was just wondering why he is being mentioned. Yes, in print he is very recognized. However, why his school and not others? why him at all? seems to be borderline POV which is not what we should be doing in wikipedia.--Blckavnger 19:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)