Talk:Alec Baldwin: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 17:01, 11 February 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Alec Baldwin article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2: 3 months

Template:Vital article

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography: Actors and Filmmakers / Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers (assessed as Mid-importance).
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

United States Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Thomas Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Thomas, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Thomas the Tank Engine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ThomasWikipedia:WikiProject Animation/Thomas & Friends task forceTemplate:WikiProject ThomasThomas
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

New York (state): Long Island

	New York (state) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state)
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Long Island, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Theatre Low‑importance

	Theatre portal This article is part of WikiProject Theatre, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of theatre on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.TheatreWikipedia:WikiProject TheatreTemplate:WikiProject TheatreTheatre
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Veganism and Vegetarianism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of veganism and vegetarianism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Veganism and VegetarianismWikipedia:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismTemplate:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismVeganism and Vegetarianism
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 3 times. The weeks in which this happened:

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

"discharged a revolver

shouldn't this just read "shot a gun"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A442:581E:1:DDA4:26DD:4CC2:1219 (talk) 09:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed a lot of reputable media covering the ongoing trial have used the term 'fired' in reference to the gun. The district attorned adjacently used the phrase 'fire a projectile', as documented by CNN in the link provided. ~~~~ DovC123 (talk) 18:50, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Awards in lead

In light of recent edits to omit awards of Baldwin in lead, I'm just going to pick 3 actors off the top of my head without checking their article leads: James Earl Jones, Tina Fey and Joel Gray. Completely different actors in their field. I'm betting these articles list awards received as content for their lead sections: listing awards. That's what makes a personal notable for inclusion at WP. This is standard content for actor leads. The awards for Baldwin should remain in lead section. As well, it is never stated in the article or any source that Baldwin gained fame for his appearance on Knots Landing. Maineartists (talk) 22:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alec Baldwin comedian and political activist (removal)

Based on the introductory and the fact that the lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight, do you support, oppose, or oppose partially the removal of political activist and/or comedian from the lede and occupation infobox of this article?

As I've concluded after previous discussions pertaining to what makes a subject a notable comedian, many editors agree that:

Appearing in comedy films and being a comedian is not the same thing
The usual criteria for being a comedian includes at minimum a period of having done stand-up, or as a stretch, regularly appearing cast members of any sketch comedy show.

He simply isn't notable for being a political activist, I don't think any further argument needs to be made regarding this.

Vote below and specify if required. ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 14:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support - for reasons above ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 14:27, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Partially Oppose. Political activist should be removed, but comedian should remain.

Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 17:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My vote does not include the term support or oppose because I don't know what they mean in this Rfc. Partially oppose (keep comedian) The word comedian should be kept in the lead and the infobox, and the word political activist should not be there. An unbiased search shows the word comedian showing up repeatedly, but not the term political activist, so it's clear that reliable sources commonly describe his occupation as including comedian. Mathglot (talk) 17:37, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathglot I goofed up the wording and only just realized it, but support would be removing both comedian and political activist, oppose would mean leaving them both in, and partially oppose would suggest keeping one of the two (specify). ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 18:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, thanks. I have adjusted my !vote above accordingly. Mathglot (talk) 19:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Partially Oppose. Political activist should be removed. If Vince Vaughn, John C. Reilly and Woody Allen are comedians then comedian should remain for Alec Baldwin. Nemov (talk) 21:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nemov Woody Allen has done stand-up. Vince Vaughn and John C. Reilly shouldn't be labeled comedians either on lack of RS alone. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 15:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Political activist should not be in the lead, since there is little weight in the article for this label and by assumption in reliable sources. This is according to the MOS:LEADREL guideline which states that

"according to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources."

Comedian is a bit more complicated of a decision. Like ChicagoWikiEditor, I feel that a comedian is someone who does stand-up comedy work or does mostly comedy films and shows. Alec Baldwin is more of a diverse entertainer. He should not be pigeonholed with the comedian label in the lead sentence, but rather the nuance of his work should be explained as is done in the second sentence:

"The oldest of the Baldwin brothers, he is known for his versatile performances, from comic work on television to dramatic roles in film."

--Guest2625 (talk) 02:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps for rhythm and balance of the two lead sentences. A second label word could be "entertainer". Then the lead would begin as:

Alexander Rae Baldwin III (born April 3, 1958) is an American actor and entertainer.[1][2][3] The oldest of the Baldwin brothers, he is known for his versatile performances, from comic work on television to dramatic roles in film.

In this case "entertainer" would represent comic work and actor would represent dramatic work. --Guest2625 (talk) 03:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a concise and accurate solution. Sergeant Curious (talk) 14:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An improvement over comedian to be sure @Mathglot: @Orson12345: thoughts on this take? ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, entertainer would be more appropriate.

Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 19:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mild support for removal (invited by the bot) He really doesn't fall within the common meaning of "comedian" or "political activist", but he's sort of an edge case on both of those. Since he is very and very visibly political there should be some summary of that aspect in the lead. Which would do a better job that attempting a 2 word nounification of his as a "political activist" Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal - per WP:LEAD. He is famous for being an actor, and the bulk of the article on his work is that. His other works as producer, comic, and activist is of too little WP:WEIGHT for the lead. Much of his acting is in comedies, but that’s not the same thing. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:10, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support "actor and entertainer". He does enough non-acting and hosting that it makes sense to include that. --Cerebral726 (talk) 17:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal - per WP:LEAD. He is famous for being an actor, and the bulk of the article on his work is that … Much of his acting is in comedies, but that’s not the same thing per Markbassett. I think "entertainer" is vague to the point of being at best valueless and is potentially misleading. This description is more commonly used of a Sammy Davis Jr / Bruce Forsyth type figure, who sings a bit, tells jokes occasionally and dances a bit and who is known as an all-rounder. Baldwin seems to be partly known for his comedic 'skits' and parodies which are forms of comic roles. Pincrete (talk) 14:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

(edit conflict) User:ChicagoWikiEditor, can you clarify your Rfc question, and/or what support and oppose mean? You voted oppose, and your Rfc question was about "removal". So you have voted to "oppose removal", i.e, "to keep it in the lead". But you claimed earlier that he "isn't notable for being a political activist". So, which is it? Do you want the lead to say he is a political activist, or not? If no one has voted by the time you see this, I suggest you recast the Rfc question as a positive, instead of a negative, as if I understand correctly, it sounds like the current wording may have tripped you up, and may trip up others as well. Mathglot (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Too late; I got an edit conflict because someone else already responded. Not sure what happens now, but I don't see how a closer will be able to evaluate this given its current status. If I were you, I'd withdraw the Rfc (see WP:RFCEND) and start another one right after this one. But it's up to you. Mathglot (talk) 17:27, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot I did a brain fart, updated. ChicagoWikiEditor (talk) 18:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I’ve changed my vote to “partially opposed”, now that ChicagoWikiEditor has clarified the voting options. Thanks.

Orson12345 (Talk • Contribs) 18:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I still don't understand. Let me reword how I understand your oppose vote: you want "political activist" to be kept in the article, right? Because you oppose it's removal? Am I reading you right?

Oh, wait: now I see that in this edit you changed your vote from oppose to support. So I guess it needs more clarity because it tripped you up, so why wouldn't it trip up someone else as well? Let's hope no one else gets confused in the same way, but I pity the closer. Mathglot (talk) 18:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Post-ec: yes, that's what I thought from the beginning. Your vote is clear, now; let's hope the question and responses are clear to everyone. Mathglot (talk) 18:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Housekeeping note regarding conversational integrity: my comment above of 18:30, 24 Sep, which may now appear cryptic, was in reply to this comment, later removed without redaction. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:42, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closer: there is one unredacted !vote alteration in the voting section, but as of the timestamp following this comment, no loss of conversational intergrity, so you should be good to go now. Mathglot (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bad RfC. The question should have been posed neutrally with the nominators view separate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. This is one of the most poorly implemented and confusing RfCs I've ever seen, unless its purpose was to confuse participants. In any case, I've restored "comedian" to the infobox as Baldwin is not only a comedian, but a highly accomplished one, particularly through his TV work, which has earned him over a dozen major awards (Emmy, Golden Globe, SAG) for his comedy work. As I said in my edit summary, see List of comedians. If anyone is crazy enough to think that Baldwin should be removed from that list, then they'll also have to remove many, many of the others. And a riot will ensue if that happens. Also, see Comedian of course. The editor who removed it from the infobox said he did it because "He has never done stand up therefore he is not a comedian", which is the huge, classic misunderstanding of the term comedian. One does not need to be a stand-up, or have ever done stand-up, to be notable as a comedian. Baldwin is obviously a highly notable comedian. Stoarm (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your entire rationale is that he is a comedian because you say he is and because another part of Wikipedia says he is, neither of which are sufficient justification for the label here. 2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845 (talk) 16:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Children

Ilaria Catalina Irena was born 9/23/2022, his 8th child including Ireland. OneNitpicker (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NM DA

New Mexico First Judicial District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies Mprieto07 (talk) 18:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comedian?

Why does this say he is a comedian in the first sentence? Can anyone link to one example? Note: doing impressions of Donald Trump is not comedy. More importantly, I don't see a source that says he is a "comedian". 2600:1012:B067:46F:18EF:493E:B799:A034 (talk) 05:12, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Same commenter as above, here's an example of his comedic genius in our article: During his appearance on the comedy late night show Late Night with Conan O'Brien on December 11, 1998, eight days before President Bill Clinton was to be impeached, Baldwin said, "If we were in another country ... we would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families, for what they're doing to this country."[126] Baldwin later apologized for the remarks, and the network explained that it was meant as a joke and promised not to re-run it. In true comedic fashion and up there with Pryor, CK, and Marx..obv. 2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845 (talk) 16:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw there was an RfC above, which crashed and burned b/c it was done shoddily (it should've been split). Should we open a new RfC for comedian? We need many reliable sources calling him a comedian, and we don't have any that I'm aware of. I think it's obvious it should be removed. 2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845 (talk) 16:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(RfC) Should Alec Baldwin be described as a comedian in the first sentence?

Please consider joining the feedback request service.

An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. Within 24 hours, this page will be added to the following list:

Unsorted Error: No RfC category specified

When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

I am opening an RfC on this issue because there is little to no sourcing that justifies calling him a comedian in the lede of this article. Some commenters have noted that while he has played "comic roles", he has not done standup comedy; others have claimed that those roles (30 Rock, SNL Trump) suffice. Please share your views on this topic below. 2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845 (talk) 17:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 109: / Line 109: @@
 :Same commenter as above, here's an example of his comedic genius in our article: ''During his appearance on the comedy late night show Late Night with Conan O'Brien on December 11, 1998, eight days before President Bill Clinton was to be impeached, Baldwin said, "If we were in another country ... we would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families, for what they're doing to this country."[126] Baldwin later apologized for the remarks, and the network explained that it was meant as a joke and promised not to re-run it.'' In true comedic fashion and up there with Pryor, CK, and Marx..obv. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845|2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845]] ([[User talk:2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845|talk]]) 16:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 ::I just saw there was an RfC above, which crashed and burned b/c it was done shoddily (it should've been split). Should we open a new RfC for comedian? We need many reliable sources calling him a comedian, and we don't have any that I'm aware of. I think it's obvious it should be removed. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845|2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845]] ([[User talk:2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845|talk]]) 16:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
+== (RfC) Should Alec Baldwin be described as a comedian in the first sentence? ==
+{{RfC}}
+I am opening an RfC on this issue because there is little to no sourcing that justifies calling him a comedian in the lede of this article. Some commenters have noted that while he has played "comic roles", he has not done standup comedy; others have claimed that those roles (30 Rock, SNL Trump) suffice. Please share your views on this topic below. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845|2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845]] ([[User talk:2600:1012:B067:46F:6DBA:4741:DFDB:6845|talk]]) 17:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)