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== Serious Neutral Point of View issue ==
== Serious Neutral Point of View issue ==


I maintain that if the label of "far-right" is to be applied to this individual - in the first-sentence of the lead paragraph (i.e. accepted as an axiomatic truth, not subject to opinion or open to debate) - then, at the very least, one right-learning source must be provided to offer some semblance of neutral balance. As it is, the sources provided (NYT, NBC, Guardian, CNN) are all notoriously heavily left-leaning, penned by journalists who are naturally hostile to his particular branch of conservatism (undoubtedly on the hard/populist right). It's sad that I even have to point this out. The rest of the lead quite rightly mentions how many of his opponents on the left label him as a right-wing extremist, however, this is their opinion. Opinions are diverse on this issue, heavily divided by political affiliation and Wikipedia should always strive to maintain a neutral point of view - regardless of the views of its editing community. His info-box also doesn't deny his conservatism, which presents another issue; is Wikipedia now equating conservatism with the far-right? - signed in as user: 'VideoGamePlaya'
I maintain that if the label of "far-right" is to be applied to this individual - in the first-sentence of the lead paragraph (i.e. accepted as an axiomatic truth, not subject to opinion or open to debate) - then, at the very least, one right-learning source must be provided to offer some semblance of neutral balance. As it is, the sources provided (NYT, NBC, Guardian, CNN) are all notoriously heavily left-leaning, penned by journalists who are naturally hostile to his particular branch of conservatism (undoubtedly on the hard/populist right). It's sad that I even have to point this out. The rest of the lead quite rightly mentions how many of his opponents on the left label him as a right-wing extremist, however, this is their opinion. Opinions are diverse on this issue, heavily divided by political affiliation and Wikipedia should always strive to maintain a neutral point of view - regardless of the views of its editing community. His info-box also doesn't deny his conservatism, which presents another issue; is Wikipedia now equating conservatism with the far-right? - signed in as user: 'VideoGamePlaya' <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:VideoGamePlaya|VideoGamePlaya]] ([[User talk:VideoGamePlaya#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/VideoGamePlaya|contribs]]) 14:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Revision as of 14:36, 16 June 2023

Template:Vital article

"Far right" in opening sentence

"Far right" appears multiple times in the article as well as the lead. I feel that it's prominent enough to appear in the first sentence description per this edit. Are there any policy-based objections to this? –dlthewave ☎ 04:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Far-right" is a contentious label. The lead currently says Carlson has helped to promote far-right ideas. That seems consistent with sourcing. Claiming that Carlson himself is far-right would basically mean you need to have sources consistently define him as such. I don't think we have that in this case. Since his promotion of far-right ideas is already part of the lead this seems like a needless attempt to shoehorn a contentious label into the opening sentence of a BLP article. Remember, it's not policy based objection to the actions. You need policy based support. Springee (talk) 04:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that it's automatically a contentious label; it's a term frequently used in academia to quantify both political movements and individuals, including Carlson. See eg. [1], US Fox News talk show host and far-right pundit Tucker Carlson... Simply having people who disagree with a label is not enough to render it contentious to the point of unusability; it would need to be a label inappropriate for use in high-quality writing. --Aquillion (talk) 21:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a contentious label. That doesn't mean a high quality source could never use it (though I'm not sure an obscure article that has been cited zero times counts as quality). Springee (talk) 22:41, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most everything Carlson says is contentious. I have always assumed purposely. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also think "far-right" is well-sourced and should be including. Those claiming it's a "contentious label" are confusing "contentious" with "negatively-tinged". Just because they don't like the fact that "far-right" tends to connote a negative perception of someone doesn't make it "contentious". There are plenty of people described as "far-right" on Wikipedia if reliable sources describe them that way. Tucker Carlson is one of those people. Wes sideman (talk) 12:25, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
wrong. If Antifa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) is not "far left" then tuck is definitely not "far right" - it's quite simple. 75.105.36.127 (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We actually do not have any body or lead content that describes Carlson as far-right. Both the body and lead mention that he gives mainstream coverage to far-right views. I don't think those things are synonymous. For someone as well-covered as Carlson, I think it's fair to expect sources that explicitly say "far-right" and body content that summarizes them. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Firefangledfeathers (talk · contribs). I do not think we should be adding far-right. Canadianr0ckstar2000 (talk) 15:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"far-right political commentator, writer, conspiracy theorist" - is very biased - Tucker Carlson is Center right. He calls BS - he is right about BLM, Covid-19 Vaccines, and the Ukraine war - jury not out on Jan 6th but videos are telling - Anyone who thinks he is a far right conspiracy theorist must be extreme left (fake wanting to help people to bring about Utopia but only wants control) - and also wants the World to be ruled like 1930's Nazi (socialists) Germany and 1930's Stalin's Russia/USSR - Those calling Carlson far-right as sourced have a screw loose. 73.20.34.120 (talk) 04:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've pretty much summed up the extreme right position and made the point that Carlson is far-right. But, our opinions don't matter. We print what RS print. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:21, 6 May 2023 (UTC).[reply]
If you think that is far right you genuinely have absolutely no idea what far right means. Britannic16 (talk) 12:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but we go by what RS say. Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And most don't call him far-right. Even in recent times we don't have a majority calling him far-right. Also, we should evaluate the quality of evidence presented by sources when they use contentious labels. Springee (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SWo do any sources contest this, not not say it contest it? Slatersteven (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We don't have things that way. Take an extreme case, if one source says he is a martian and no sources deny it we don't conclude that it must be true. To put this sort of label in the opening sentence we need to show that it's a common description and baked by good evidence. I don't think we have that. Springee (talk) 13:55, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
True, but we do not have only one source. As such this is not an isolated opinion. Slatersteven (talk) 13:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But do the majority of sources describe him as such? If not then we shouldn't use that contentious label in the opening sentence. I could be wrong but I think this was previously discussed with sources. Perhaps that was a BLPN. I'm on my phone so searches are difficult. Springee (talk) 14:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"But do the majority of sources describe him as such?" I'm not familiar with that standard. Is it a policy/guideline or something you came up with? –dlthewave ☎ 13:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE suggests that the opening paragraph of a biographical article should neutrally describe the person. Additionally, MOS:LABEL suggests that a contentious label be widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. I concur with the perspective shared by User:Springee as it is well supported by policy, and has been successfully argued at many RfCs. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dlthewave, skipping over the issues Kcmastrpc rightly notes, let's turn this around. How many source is sufficient? Would you argue for this if only 1 RS used the label? Is that your standard? What if it were 2? How many is enough in your view? What about 1% of source? Is that your standard? How would you propose we decide? Springee (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you genuinely think the Nazis were left-wing just because they had “socialist” in their name proves that you have no business discussing politics in any capacity. Do you think North Korea is a democracy because their official name is the DEMOCRATIC People’s Republic of Korea? Unreal. Jrhjazznblues (talk) 08:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't figure the abuse of LABEL into my equation here, but do look at RS descriptions. Given how deceptive Carlson is (his lawyers say he lies and his show is just entertainment that should not be taken seriously), and how the latest Dominion vs Fox News revelations show he doesn't even believe (violently disagrees in private) what he says in his show, we can't know if he is really far-right or just uses his show to push such views. Therefore, I support Firefangledfeathers. We should describe him as a Fox News host who "gives favorable coverage to far-right views". I say "favorable" because he does not contradict those views and actually pushes them. That's why people think he's far-right. His actions speak loudly, but given that his private views and public actions are often contradictory, we can only describe his public views on this point. If we get evidence of his private views, then we can add that. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe how this is handled by Andy Ogles BLP should be an approach we model here. It does not belong in the lede sentence; however, describing how his critics label his talk show views is appropriate. Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:29, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree. What critics are we referring to? Since when does opinions and critics have encyclopedic value? Canadianr0ckstar2000 (talk) 01:30, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Their opinions have value when given in the context of a news report, when printed in a reliable source. You are well-aware of this, having been told countless times at the Ruble talk page. Zaathras (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing written would be too extreme for this bizarre crowd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.192.29 (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

hence why RS call him far-right, his extremism. Slatersteven (talk) 12:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include What does it matter what he may or may not believe himself? He is a far-right commentator, writer, and conspiracy theorist because his commentary, writings, and conspiracy theories are far-right. Julia Childs first TV show was The French Chef; but she wasn’t French. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:53, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It matters that the majority of sources talking about him don't use that contentious label. What has been in here for some time is a more encyclopedic entry (and better adheres to IMPARTIAL and LABEL). Springee (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include "far-right" per Aquillion's earlier points. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE: "... avoiding subjective or contentious terms." I acknowledge that one might contend it's not subjective or contentious. Peter Gulutzan (talk)

Contradictory information in the article

We’ve got contradictory information in the article, in the section “Departure from Fox News”. The last sentence of the first paragraph says “The decision to dismiss Carlson was reportedly made by Rupert Murdoch, the chairman of the board of Fox News Channel's parent company Fox Corporation."[1][2] The last sentence of the second paragraph says “The decision was eventually made by Murdoch's son, Lachlan Murdoch, and Fox CEO Suzanne Scott to oust him."[3]

  1. ^ "Fox staffers and Tucker Carlson foes react to shock exit - live". The Independent. 25 April 2023. Retrieved 25 April 2023.
  2. ^ Morrison, Sara (24 April 2023). "What we know so far about Tucker Carlson's shocking Fox News departure". Vox. Retrieved 25 April 2023.
  3. ^ Hagey, Keach; Flint, Joe; Simonetti, Isabella (April 26, 2023). "Tucker Carlson's Vulgar, Offensive Messages About Colleagues Helped Seal His Fate at Fox News". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved April 26, 2023.

Which is it? We need to resolve this contradiction - or else allow for both somehow. MelanieN (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They probably both needed to be mentioned as potential possibilities. There's not a RS consensus from what I've seen on who exactly fired him. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 15:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they're all correct. Here's how the Washington Post puts it together:
"When Fox News CEO Suzanne Scott called Carlson Monday morning to tell him he would be “parting ways” with the network, the host repeatedly asked why, according to people familiar with the conversation. Scott would only tell him that the decision came “from above” — meaning Rupert Murdoch and his Fox Corp CEO son Lachlan. Scott and Lachlan Murdoch had made the decision to fire Carlson Friday evening, three days after the settlement, and Lachlan spoke to his father about it on Saturday, according to two people familiar with the discussion."[2]
How about we replace the stuff now in the article with info based on the WaPo summary? -- MelanieN (talk) 17:23, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The New York Times says it was Scott and Lachlan, omitting WaPo's inclusion of Rupert: "The decision to let Mr. Carlson go was made on Friday night by Lachlan Murdoch, the chief executive of Fox Corporation, and Suzanne Scott, chief executive of Fox News Media, according to a person briefed on the move. Mr. Carlson was informed on Monday morning by Ms. Scott, another person briefed on the move said."[3] Sounds like WaPo has more sources than NYT? -- MelanieN (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think I've fixed it - by putting all the information into the second paragraph, and citing the Washington Post for names and dates. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is any of this content in our article. Why are we speculating on the internal management and decision authority inside a corporation, and what difference does it make to the subject of this page? It's all UNDUE. SPECIFICO talk 00:52, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a good point. Does it matter if Tucker was fired by Rupert vs. Lachlan vs. Suzanne Scott? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:54, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think so. The higher up the chain that decision was made, the more extraordinary the situation is shown to be. I don't think Rupert Murdoch generally gets involved in the firing of staff. (and personally, it seems unbelievable to me, that Lachlan would make the move to fire this guy, and not pick up the phone at some point to talk it over with his Dad, there's just too much money involved, but that's all just personal speculation on my part, and can be ignored for article-purposes :) ). Despayre  tête-à-tête 17:25, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tucker on Twitter

There is an incredible number of viewers leaving Fox because of him and an even greater number of people looking at his first Twitter thing.--Ralfdetlef (talk) 04:13, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

a bigly number of people, i bet. have a source? ValarianB (talk) 12:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2023

Episodes 2 and 3 were just posted recently on Tucker Carlson's Twitter. Please include details about these episodes and their viewership numbers. 2603:8000:6001:8E45:8C2B:6C05:B936:F8E2 (talk) 01:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serious Neutral Point of View issue

I maintain that if the label of "far-right" is to be applied to this individual - in the first-sentence of the lead paragraph (i.e. accepted as an axiomatic truth, not subject to opinion or open to debate) - then, at the very least, one right-learning source must be provided to offer some semblance of neutral balance. As it is, the sources provided (NYT, NBC, Guardian, CNN) are all notoriously heavily left-leaning, penned by journalists who are naturally hostile to his particular branch of conservatism (undoubtedly on the hard/populist right). It's sad that I even have to point this out. The rest of the lead quite rightly mentions how many of his opponents on the left label him as a right-wing extremist, however, this is their opinion. Opinions are diverse on this issue, heavily divided by political affiliation and Wikipedia should always strive to maintain a neutral point of view - regardless of the views of its editing community. His info-box also doesn't deny his conservatism, which presents another issue; is Wikipedia now equating conservatism with the far-right? - signed in as user: 'VideoGamePlaya' — Preceding unsigned comment added by VideoGamePlaya (talk • contribs) 14:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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