Talk:Pizza/Archive 1

Pizza and Hamburger Arch Rivals?

I am removing this portion because I do not believe that pizzas and hamburger dislike each other. In fact, I have observed that they get along rather well.

--Anonymous

whatever ur on, il take 2

This article is (was?) US biased

I moved the pic of the authenitic Neapolitan pizza in favor of the main picture of the Italian pizza. Also, I removed the recipe of the Korean pizza claiming it belongs to wikibooks, while leaving the recipe of the Russian one. Italian classic toppings were all added as well, while "U.S. variations" were removed. I'm pretty sure Pizza was invented in New York by some immigrant guy called John Pizza.

I moved the picture of the Neapolitan pizza next to the entry on them for easy reference. Two pizza pictures at the top looks a bit cluttered. I removed the recipe because it goes into too much detail for wikipedia. Note that the pizza entry does not even list the amount of ingredients, it just gives an overview of the making process. The "Classic Italian pizza types (toppings)" section seems out of place here, but I wouldn't object to it having its own article. -- Norvy (talk) 08:11, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree

I took off these few lines because they were not true. Italians did spread pizza around the world.

Cool, an entire section dedicated to American pizza styles. I really care how they eat pizza in Rhode island.

Hack American section down for brevity and stick it in with the rest of the nationalities. If anyone really cares about how Pizza is made in the states, create a seperate article. -Jackmont, Feb 15, 2006.

British Meatpies??

In the intro to US pizza styles someone wrote that pizza may have "contributed to the decline of the British pie heritage previously common in American cuisine." I guarantee that this sentence was added by a Brit. Sorry but was no common "British meat pie heritage" in the US. Yes we had meatpies and yes some were decendents of British dishes but they were by no means all British nor were they ubiquitous. Also, it is a superfluous bit of questionable info. I suggest it be removed.nicole hope lucas invented the pizza therefore she is going to be a millonaire.if she does not recieve the money very soon she imediatly will send every solider she knows out to find the president in order for her money.

Cheddar?

I didn't change it (thought I'd leave this to others' discretion) but I find the italicized sentence, to be out of place in the paragraph that follows:

The earliest pizzeria opened in 1830 at Via Port'Alba 18 in Naples and is still in business today. Pizza was still considered "poor man's food" in 1889 when Rafaele Esposito, the most famous pizzaiolo of Naples, was summoned before King Umberto I and Queen Margherita to prepare the local speciality. It is said that he made two traditional ones and additionally created one in the colours of the Italian flag with red tomato sauce, white mozzarella cheese, and green basil leaves. The big secret in making pizza is the fact that it's not only mozzarella cheese but rather a mixture of white cheddar and mozzarella. The Queen was delighted and "pizza Margherita" was born.

I took the responsability of removing that nonsense. Pietro

Dough ingredients

What goes into the dough? AxelBoldt

Simply flour, water, salt and oil. But the proportions are the secret of a good pizzaiolo"[1]. What is called lievito di birra (I'm sorry, I haven't found an english translation but it is a kind of yeast), is added for a quicker preparation, but is not common in better reastaurants. Ah: a good pizza deserves a wood oven.

In Virgil some recipes included some herbes. In 16th century pizza is the name of something quite similar, but more a cake (and ingredients also included egges and sugar). The "current" recipe was found in documents starting from 19th century.

Bon apetit! :-) - Gianfranco

I'm pretty sure there are no herbes in Virgil's recipes! In the US, the more herbes in the dough, the farther from the coasts you are. If it is not common in better restaurants, the result is sourdough pizza, a San Francisco specialty. Unleavened pizza would be matzo. --Wetman 23:35, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

lievito di birra = brewer's yeast. pietro

Foto

A much better pizza foto can be found in the German Wikipedia version :-) 82.83.12.9 21:31, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Could you post it? Mark Richards 19:43, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Cooking time

Under the subheading "Authentic Neapolitan pizza", it says "the pizza is cooked for approximately 2 minutes." Is this a typographical error? Most pizzas require 20 minutes, not 2 minutes. Can somebody verify?

 -- Anonymous

It's entirely down to the oven. Very hot pizza ovens can cook them this quickly. Our AGA takes around 8 minutes. Other ovens may be slower.

Two minutes cannot be correct. Two minutes in a very hot oven for Baked Alaska. --Wetman 23:35, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No it is correct. But the article talks about real pizzas (or pizze) made in an real pizza oven : the pizza is placed in the same "chamber" than the wood, and cooks very quickly due to the very high temperature. When the pizza is cooked in a conventional oven or worse, in a microwave, it tends to get really soft and spongy.

In an article in the British Newspaper The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1784637,00.html a pizza cooking champion Pasquale Parziale cooks his in nine seconds. Mind you, his oven is at 850 degrees F. In my domestic cooker a proper italian pizza takes arond 7 to 8 minutes.

NPOV ("delicious")

For the record, I think it is a little extreme to remove the word 'delicious' from the description of pizza on the grounds of it being 'POV'! Mark Richards 19:41, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I like pizza, but calling it delicious is obviously a matter of opinion, and so POV. For every foodstuff or dish that exists, there's someone who thinks it's delicious... otherwise it wouldn't exist! It's not useful info. Chameleon 11:24, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lievito di birra is brewer's yeast Chameleon 11:24, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, although I still think it's misleading to leave out the important fact that it IS delicious! ;) Mark Richards 18:05, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How about "tasty". No-one can argue that it doesn't have flavour ...  :-) Ian 17:35, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pneh. It is an opinion, but quite a common one :-) Besides, a pizza can be stripped down to merely the dough, and pretty much any kind of dough you want. I'm sure just about everybody thinks *some* type of pizza is delicious :-) --Ihope127 03:08, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the point is that even if the opinion is shared by every single person on the planet, it's still an opinion. Now saying that the dish is popular, and enjoyed by millions, or even something silly like "regarded by millions as delicious", would not be opinion, it would be fact. I mean, who among us hates pizza in all of its conceivable forms? It's a purely semantic difference, to be sure, but for the purposes of Wikipedia it's an important semantic difference.

One thing I think we need to do is list the regional variations alphabetically. There seems to be a need for some people to list their favorite variation at the top. An alphabetical list would prevent any possible "competition". --Corvun 07:07, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem with the word "Delicious" being in the article, as most people like pizza. Garr1984 23:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)§

Pizza and Pitta

I read an article where someone suggested that Pizza probably orginated from Pitta, hence the similar sounding names. I have no idea the validity of this remark, though searching the net reveals some sites which suggest the same sort of thing, at least in terms of the origin (not the name):

http://herring.cc.gatech.edu:8000/nearandfar/59 http://www.niaf.org/news/news_italy/news_italy_march2002.asp http://www.bellambriana.com/storia_uk.htm

It would be interesting to know more on this possible connection.

How many minutes?

Is this edit correct? Matthewmayer 19:11, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A thought on the word origin

I wonder if there is a connection with the word "pissaladiere" - a traditional anchovies and onion tart from Nice, France. It looks just like pizza, only different toppping. The word "pissaladiere" comes from "pissalat" - salted, cured, and pureed fish mass, often anchovies. The Napoletan pizza ala marinara also has anchovies in the sauce.

Nizza was Italian until 1860. --Wetman 23:35, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OED: "[It., = pie.]"

Cuisine categories

User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason added Category:Icelandic_cuisine. I think this is not a good move. Pizza is a common dish throughout the western world. Why should we add every country's cuisine to the list? The word cuisine conveys a meaning of belonging to a specific region's or culture's traditional way of cooking or being invented or developed there. If there is a uniquely Icelandic variety of pizza, please add the information. Otherwise the category is misleading and should be removed. There's no point in adding "Icelandic cuisine" to bread, porridge, wine, pizza etc. Wipe 19:44, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Update: 24.247.85.157 removed the category link with this summary: "Pizza is not part of the cuisine of Iceland, therefore I removed its categorization as such." So now the majority is against including Icelandinc cuisine. Wipe 17:40, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

The word "pizza" is from the Italian word pizza ... originally meaning "cake, tart, pie." ... Many mistakenly believe "pizza" derives from the Italian word for "pie." I'm confused. How is this belief "mistaken"?

More about word origins

I couldn't find reliable information confirming that the original meaning were "a mess", so I replaced it with less surprising meanings "cake, tart, pie", which were found both here and here. -Oghmoir 10:21, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In my copy of Larousse gastronomique it states that "the word 'pizza' derives from a verb meaning to sting or to season. From the same origin comes 'á la pizzaiola,' a piquant mixture of tomato sauce, shreds of pepper, herbs and garlic which is suitable for pasta, pork chops or grills." (Larousse Gastronomique, published 1988 Paul Hamlyn). Unfortunately it fails to state what the verb is!

Picture of the traditional European pizza

We need at least ONE picture of the traditional European pizza (thin crust, tomato paste, basil leaves ...). This picture is badly needed. -- Toytoy 10:22, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I just added a picture of an authentic Neapolitan pizza Margherita. I took the picture myself in a pizzeria located in the historical centre of Naples, on September 6th 2005.

There's a pizza-like edible object on the Commons (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Flameukeusche_1.jpg; Alsacian pizza-like tarte flambée)) though its quality is miserable. -- Toytoy 10:29, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I live in Sweden and can send you a picture or two that I've taken myself, our pizzas have thin crust. I don't know how to upload images myself so give me your email and I'll send the photos.

POOP

Making an American pizza

I added the section "Making an American pizza" by using public domain images to tell a short story. However, these pictures represent pizza-making at home which is rare these days. We need some pictures taken inside a fast food restaurant's industrialized kitchen. Most of us can't make a pizza. We order from these restaurants. -- Toytoy 10:38, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

• A fast food restaurant's industrialized kitchen?! I guess this is pretty common in many places, but what about a real pizzeria? :)--Pharos 20:40, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't this section be moved to wikibooks cookbook section? TROGG 09:10, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Pizzaria redirect

Pizzaria rediretcs here but I see no mention of it in the article. Should it be added in or the redirect removed? Whenever I've seen redirects before, it's also been bolded in the first paragraph. This seems to me like a good plan --Celestianpower

No, we have redirects for all sorts of things not mentioned in the first paragraph, for example misspellings (of which "pizzaria" is one). Helpful redirects should not be removed. — Chameleon 16:43, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• It's really annoying/confusing to have a redirect which does nothing to explain why it's there. Kappa 16:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pizzerias are mentioned in the lead paragraph, so the pizzeria redirect makes sense. "Pizzaria" is a common misspelling of this word, and so per policy we include the pizzaria redirect. I don't see how it is annoying or confusing to have a redirect from a misspelling. Either you can spell it correctly (in which case you will never ever see the redirect) or you can spell it (in which case you learn something). — Chameleon 17:16, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I must have missed it. Should we bold it rather than put it in italics? --Celestianpower 21:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you insist. — Chameleon 21:30, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What a great article!

Thanks - a fabu read and history --Mothperson 23:05, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Picture of Goofy with the pizzas

It seems out of place --Maoririder 19:22, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

"American Pizza"...as perceived in Germany?

In Germany, some of the frozen pizze (which are sold in the supermarket) are of a variety called "American Pizza". The receipe for this "American Pizza" differs from that of the "normal Pizza" as it contains Baking powder (typically NaHCO₃). However, this article contains no reference to this special receipe. Is this sort of "American Pizza" just an invention of German marketing droids? Or is it indeed an american invention, although maybe not a very popular one? These "American Pizzas" (sic!) are marketed in way that makes it very likely that "American" means "U.S.American", not "South American".

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this vital topic concerning modern nutrition!

--Klaws 18:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

It's hard to say what's "American" and what's not. I've heard that in Japan, many people put ketchup on their pizza, and eat it with knives and forks, to make the experience more "American". If baking powder is percieved in Germany as something inherently American, then it's likely the "American Pizza" is just a name used to describe German pizza with baking powder. Can't be sure whether this is actually practiced "in America", because every region, state, county, and city, and individual restaurant in the U.S. does things differently. I've never heard of it myself, but it is certainly possibly. --Corvun 19:53, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Grammar

There are various spelling and grammatical mistakes throughout the article, it seems. (Anon)

If that bothers you, correct them... Tjwood 11:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Etiquette: clarifications

Although I'm not editing the text for now (I will, if there are no reasonable objections to this), I think Sfdan's modifies to the text are really unnecessary and full of useless details. For example, writing "while walking in the street or on the sidewalk" rather than just "while walking in the street" is redundant, since "street" already identifies a particular environment, and it's a synecdoche (a part for the whole). Also if you want to be that specific, you missed avenues, squares, parks, and so on... Another example is "This is generally acceptable in many places, although traditions in various locations might dictate that the knife and fork approach is more acceptable" at the end of the second paragraph that already starts stating the very same thing "According to etiquette, pizza should be eaten with a knife and fork, however many people [...]".

I tried at first to put the text you provided in as completely neutral a version as possible. It was reverted pretty much afterwards to the original version, inclusive a very POV comment about those who eat pizza with knife and fork. My "over-the-top" edit afterwards was done with the intention of pointing out how bad the writing was. For example, "walking in the street, wrapped in paper". Perhaps you (or whoever else is doing the editing, since you are not identifying yourself with your comment— there is a simple icon at the top of the edit box that will drop in your name so we all know who we are writing to)— perhaps you know what you mean, but is it clearly understandable to others? I can imagine you walking in the middle of the street dodging traffic with your pizza in hand stuffing it into your face, your body wrapped in newspaper. Remember, we cannot read your mind— only your poorly phrased English. And maybe this type of "in the street" (more correctly, it would be "on the street", if you mean "on the sidewalk")— maybe this is acceptable where you live, and everywhere you look around, this is a big world— no need to act superior to others because they cut their bread with knife and fork! Therefore, I DO object to your view of etiquette. --SFDan 13:03, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Please see the section at the bottom regarding original research. As a note: please create new discussion sections at the bottom of talk pages, and remember to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end.

It's weird that you say "this is a big world— no need to act superior to others because they cut their bread with knife and fork! Therefore, I DO object to your view of etiquette." while you are pointing out etiquette on Wikipedia... which proves I'm right: etiquette is not a point of view. WASTREL 09:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV (Etiquette)

Etiquette is not -- at least for civilized people -- a point of view. You don't have to believe me, you could try it by yourself in case you'll ever get invited to a formal dinner: in such occasion you can try to put your piece of bread into your plate and cut it with your knife while all the other guests stare at you like a chimpanzee escaped from the zoo, then you'll have to explain (possibly with belches): "Etiquette is a point of view".

Original Research?

removed from article:

References

Etiquette, Classic Italian pizza toppings, and some parts of History are took from the essay "the authentic Italian pizza" by Valerio Capello, used with permission.

I can't find this essay via google (searching only brings up wikipedia mirrors}. The pizza margherita picture states that it was taken Valerio Capello (presumably a user). I'm lead to believe that this information amounts to original research, and have removed the sections until they are referenced. -- Norvy (talk) 14:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Placenta?

The word could also have evolved from "piza" that comes from "picea", the southern corruption of the Latin adjective which described the black tar-like coating underneath the placenta as a result of burning ashes. Am I missing something?--Elliskev 15:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The full quotation seems to be missing:

The Neapolitans, who have historically been impoverished, were also most ingenious at living well, eating well, and making the most out of very little. (The earliest Greek ancestor of Neapolitan pizza was called "plakuntos," which means flat, baked bread. When the Romans adopted this dish, it became known as "placenta" in Latin. In antiquity, placenta was a dish of much renown. It was a pie made of the finest flours, a topping of cheese mixed with honey, and a seasoning of bay leaves and oil. Placenta was baked on the floor of the hearth alongside the burning wood. The name pizza comes from a southern corruption of the Latin adjective "picea" (peechia), which described the black tar-like coating underneath the placenta as a result of the burning ashes.) From this Google cache: [2] Jclerman 19:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• Hi Juan-Carlos - I don't mean to be a stickler. But 'pizza' is not a southern CORRUPTION of the Latin adjective 'picea' because the comment is derogatory in a sense. It's better to say that Italian 'pizza' descended from Latin 'picea'. One could say that Italian figlio, Neapolitan fijjo, and Spanish hijo, are all corruptions of Latin filius. But we know them not to be a corruption, but instead, offspring resulting from the natural evolution of the Romance languages from Latin. VingenzoTM 06:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Good, but you should argue your opinion with that of the author of the quoted text CORRUPTED which I moused-clicked from a Google cache: "The Pizza Book by Evelyne Slomon Times Books/Random House, 1984 ISBN 0-8129-1113-X". And I did it only as to clarify the misunderstanding about the meaning of the placenta and plakuntos terms. Jclerman 07:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

I don't think the given IPA pronunciation (/pit:tsa/) can be correct. The colon, and writing the /t/ twice, are two alternative means of showing that it's a long t (like two t's together, as in "at two"). Using both the colon and doubling the letter would make it extra-long, like three t's together. WASTREL 20:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I added a pronunciation section [[3]] and it was quickly removed. I see no other information about pronunciation in there. Does it not belong here? 203.100.252.74 03:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

More on etymology

Since the derivation of "pizza" is unknown we only have various guess by linguists as to its origins, none of which are definitive. Given that there are almost as many etymologies (both folk and legitimate) as there are types of pizza, it might be best to either include a few of the most likely derivations, or to at least note that there are many other possible derivations. The other alternative would be to ignore the etymology completely.

As for the IPA pronunciation, Italian represents a challenge not found in other languages as consonantal gemination implies a pause between syllables, with the first being long, in this case, PEET---tsa.

Jim62sch 11:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Pizza delivery

Was wondering if anyone who contributed to this article might have something to add to Pizza delivery. Or, it's Peer review (at Wikipedia:Peer_review/Pizza_delivery). Any help or comments would be appreciated ;] --VileRage ^{(Reply|C|Spam Me!*)} 01:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

spam cleanup

Per the spam cleanup request, I removed most external links which seemed to be commercial, nonnotable, or ordinary recipe collections. Feel free to re-include, but justify each. I'm immune to sifting through pages full of mouth-watering pizza pictures. Mwhahaha! Femto 17:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Again on the alleged US bias

I'm Italian and of course it was impossibile to never get into the Pizza article someday. I saw you talked a bit about the US bias, and in fact the article is largely devoted to discuss Pizza variants in the USA... yes, this English encyclopedia, but English language is officially spoken in Ireland, Kenya, Australia, Malta, etc. etc. Moreover, pizza is definitively an Italian-origin dish, therefore I supposed that Italian most diffused variants have a reason-to-be here, as they probably influenced many other variants abroad. Finally, I think it would be interesting for tourist seeking infos about Italian pizza... as I imagine that tourist who wanna eat a "true" pizza in their life move to Italy, not to USA or Kenya... I don't know. What I can suggest is to add two links to external articles, i.e.: Italian pizzza and US Pizza (... and Kenya Pizza) and move there the regional variants. Therefore please don't delete the pizzas added, or at least let's discuss it before such a move. Thanks and good work Attilios. 5/12/2005.

Just so you know, most English speakers use the M/D/Y formulation for dates, with the day after the month. You're likely to be misinterpreted if you use the European one. Sign your comments with four tildas and it takes care of the date and time for you. 152.163.101.14 21:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

What countries (english speaking or not) other than the US use M/D/Y date format? As far as I'm aware there are none.

That's because it is just the USAians who write it that way. Yours, an English-speaking Englishman (on 05/02/2007, that's the 5th of Feb.)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.1.162.20 (talk) 18:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

• Buffalos are of course not Buffallo Bill's ones. Buffalo mozzarella is from Bubalus genre, but it seems you English have not a word to distinguish it from the Bison genre, which is pretty a different thing!!! Therefore a not-Italian reader should feel some instantaneous confusion while reading that pizza can use Buffalo mozzarella, even though I added the link to the correct animal. Let me know.Attilios.

Is this supposed to be a joke?

Authentic Neapolitan pizza (pizza Napoletana) According to the Associazione vera pizza napoletana, genuine Neapolitan pizza dough consists of italian wheat flour (type 0 and/or 00), natural Neapolitan yeast or brewer's yeast, and water. For proper results, strong flour with high protein content (as used for bread-making rather than cakes) must be used. The dough must be kneaded by hand or with an approved mixer that moves in a clockwise direction. After the rising process, the dough must be formed by the right hand and the first two fingers of the left without the help of a rolling pin or any other mechanical device, and may be no more than 0.31278 cm thick. Baking the pizza must take place in a oak-wood-fired, stone oven at 485.6°C (905°F) for 60-90 seconds. When cooked, it should be soft and fragrant (see a more detailed recipe below).

What happens if the mixer moves in a counterclockwise direction? What happens if the dough is formed by a left-handed person using the left hand and the first two fingers of the right hand? Can a true Pizza not be 0.31279 cm thick. A difference of 0.1 micrometre (4 millionths of an inch)? Or the stone oven, can it not be 485.7°C?

Somehow the numbers were lost in translation. See appropriate figures in the curren version of the article. Jclerman 19:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I still find the bit about mixers being "approved" and the necessity that they turn Clockwise as just plain ridiculous. As is the idea that it must be formed using "the right hand and the first two fingers of the left". There will be absolutely no difference if the dough is mixed in a counterclockwise direction. Nor will it be changed if it is shaped using the left hand and the first two fingers of the right.

The rotation spec seems to account for a chiral effect (in other words, only right handed persons should make pizza) and a rotational effect (cf Coriolis effect) dependent on the Earth's rotation-wise sense. Jclerman 15:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Why should only right handed people make Pizza? The hand used has absolutely NO EFFECT upon the taste or shape of the Pizza. What does Corioli have to do with making Pizza? In order for Corioli's effect to come into play, you would have to spin your dough pretty fast. And even then, it wouald have NO EFFECT on the final texture, taste, consistency, shape, whatever. The whole thing about the clockwise motion is just pretentious claptrap.

This seems to be a joke; glancing over the reference [4], it mentions nothing of the sort. Duja 13:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing on the site given as a reference that specifies that the mixer must be approved, or turn in a clockwise direction. There is nothing that suggests that the dough must be shaped in any particular way. Can we please just remove that ridiculous passage from what would be a very good article.

The statement that "strong flour with high protein content (as used for bread-making rather than cakes" is partially correct. The reference [5] requires flour with a protein level between 11 and 12.5%; this is closer to all-purpose flour which ranges from 10-12% protein than to bread flour which has 12-14% protein (see [6] ). Italian wheat flour generally is lower in protein than North American flour, which suggests that the authentic Neapolitan recipe would not drive toward a high-protein crust. 64.78.78.80 20:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Italian Pizza

I don't mind if pizza from Napels gets the association with Italian Pizza. But it seems unfair to exclue all other pizza styles. I've added two other styles that I've ate many times. I would think that this is more descriptive. Margarita "style" isn't so much a style as a type or kind. I didn't delete anything but Margerita pizza can be made many different ways in many different provinces, the only thing the same is the toppings. Maybe someone has a nice idea to clearing up this distinction?

---

I think the problem with this whole article is that the word "Pizza" means a lot of different things in a lot of different places. In the U.S., when the term "Pizza" is used, it generally refers to what this article calls "New York Style Pizza" - which, as far as I know, really has no connection whatsoever to what they refer to as Pizza in Italy. As far as i'm concerned, they are two completely different entities. In fact, I don't even know for sure if American New York syle pizza has anything at all to do with Italy in the first place. I mean, it doesn't take an Italian to figure out to put sauce and cheese on some bread.....

In addition, in the United States, we have many different types of concoctions that are referred to as pizza - such as:

Pizza (New York Style), Sicilian (rectangular thick), Grandma (a new type of pizza served at pizza places in NY and is getting very popular), Deep Dish, Brick Oven, Wood Oven, Thin Crust (slightly different from Wood and Brick oven - the crust is harder -like real unleavened bread /matzah), White Pizza (no red sauce, but a ricotta type filling), Grandpa Pizza (simply a sicilian with sauce and no cheese), ...and then you have the frozen varieties.

I think that what they call Pizza in Italy would be equivalent to what in the U.S. call Brick Oven Pizza, or Wood Oven Pizza.

Oh, and by the way, the term "Pizza Parlor" is rarely ever used, most people simply say "Pizza Place". For example, no one says "John, I will meet you at the Pizza Parlor on 45th street" - they will say, "John, I will meet you at the Pizza Place on 45th street".

Most people say Pizzaria 71.195.47.88 14:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

"Pizzaria"???? And who? Where? The name is "pizzeria". Daviboz 11:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

removed frozen pizza section

The following section was added to the article by 213.161.232.81. It may have a place in the article, but it needs some work. –Abe Dashiell ^(t/c) 23:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

File:Grandis.jpg

The Popular Frozen pizza from Norway called Grandiosa.

A frozen pizza is a pizza that is bough from a store. It is forzen and the bottom and some of the pizza may be pre heated before freezing.It is preperated by putting in the owen and heating it for about 10-15min(depending on the pizza) and then cut up as you wish. This type of pizza is quite popular in Norway and the most famous frozen pizza in Norway is Grandiosa. Fozen pizza is so popular in Norway that some eat 1-3 each week , and some students eat only eat it. In Norway 20million Grandiosa are produced each year, and there only live's 4,6citizens in Norway. And thats only 1 type of pizza , Norway also got 5-10other types of pizza.

Discuss links here

Editors regularly clean out undiscussed links from this article. Please discuss here if you want a link not to be cleaned out regularly. (You can help!)

• What's Cooking America — History & Legends of Pizza (Linda Stradley)

A history overview, cites sources. Worth to mention that, contrary to what their disclaimer says, it would be perfectly legal to use the factual information even with no form of attribution whatsoever. Only the text itself is copyrighted and copyrightable, not the facts. Since the article probably uses some info, it's only honest to include a link. Or maybe promote it to reference status. Femto 19:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Encyclopizza — Recipes & Guide to Preparing Great Pizza (John Correll)

Looks like lots of good textual content that lives up to the title. And a site whose name is a play on the word "encyclopedia" can't be bad, can it? Femto 19:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Lombardi's Original Pizza of New York, Inc. — Homepage of America's oldest Pizzeria

Obviously commercial, I originally kept it in my earlier link cleanup, but it has been removed since. I'm still leaning towards re-inclusion since it has its own paragraph in the article. Femto 19:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• bupkis.org — Extremely detailed guide to perfect pizza dough (Terry Carmen)

Looks like a typical recipe site. Why was it added? Femto 19:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It was added because I've spent the last 15-20 years tweaking the dough recipe, and have documented reasons and solutions for the inconsistant and/or poor results that many people get. I gain nothing by adding the link, and posted it because many people are disappointed by the results they normally get with standard resipes that assume particular environmental conditions. - terry@bupkis.org

However, people don't usually come to an encyclopedia to look up recipes. There is little other notable information on the page. Perhaps though you may consider to incorporate your content into Wikibooks:Cookbook? Femto 19:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• PizzaMaking — Non-commercial site dedicated to the art and science of pizzamaking.

The usual recipes, a forum, a glossary. I'm neutral about (slightly opposed to) this. Anybody? Femto 19:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently not. Removed. Femto 19:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• annamariavolpi.com — Basic Pizza Dough Recipe with Step-by-Step pictures (Anna Maria Volpi): We tought we had a link on this page: Apparently was removed. We think it would be beneficial to have our link here; besides the history and the many recipes, we have pictured step by step instructions on how to make pizza dough at home. petermas 16:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It's your site, of course you think it would be beneficial. However it doesn't offer more than what already is in the history of pizza article, and for recipe instructions the reader should go to Wikibooks:Cookbook. Femto 13:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.pizzatherapy.com/ Huge source of pizza information and pizza restaurants across the globe. Page run by Albert Grande

Pranks?

What is the reason for the pranks section of this page? Its not very encyclopaedic and neither of the pranks are very good. (217.154.84.2)

removed. Femto 18:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Jewish recipe

HEY PIZZA WAS FROM A JEWISH RECIPE, WHY'D YOU TAKE IT OFF??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.255.174.254 (talk • contribs) .

YOU CAN PROVIDE A CITE, I PRESUME? AND WHY ARE WE SHOUTING? Femto 12:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Still more on word origin

I hate to butt in very late on a subject that's been hashed and rehashed, but where did the present version (pizza<<pizzicare) come from? What's the authority for this? I'm not finding any source that supports this. My Italian Etymological dictionary, for one, disagrees. Fitzaubrey 22:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Cite it then, or at least mark the original {{citation needed}}. Wikipedia is in general very bad when it comes to etymologies, and those with the decency to cite actual etymologiphorous dictionaries are rare. —Muke Tever talk 12:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

World record beaten

The world record mentioned in this article (Longest pizza delivery) is old (according to Guinness). The new one can be found here.

Kricke 16:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Health

With reference to the 'pizza in US Restaurants' section on the main page there appears to be no proof to the claims on the use of ingredients/health benefits in comparison. I would say as it stands this part is very much POV (is that the right acronym?), and should be referenced or at least specify a particular brand/chain that it is based on (I cannot believe that the vast array of pizza-chains all use these ingredients while 'traditional' don't). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.137.118.89 (talk • contribs) .

Removed this section until possible improvement. It's US-centric, unsourced, POV, contains surprise link code. Femto 11:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Stuffed Crust Pizza?

I don't know how to remove an article, but this one needs to go.70.162.99.227 03:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

• That article has now been merged into Pizza.

Metakraid 15:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Connecticut, St. Louis, Dayton styles

I'm trying to identify the style served by the Cassano's Pizza King (article mainly written by me; my mention of 'Connecticut style' therein is basically original research) and Donatos Pizza chains in central and southwest Ohio. IIRC it's also served by the Papa Gino's chain around New England: salty, thin, crispy or semi-crispy crust (corn meal on bottom, perhaps), not a lot of sauce, some sweetness but not as overwhelmingly sugary as Dominos or Papa Johns, toppings out to the edge, small square/rectangle-cut pieces (not pie wedges)...

I also see that someone has added a mention of the Cassanos/Donatos style as being associated with Dayton (without saying there's such a thing as "Dayton style"). The description of "St Louis style" (which I've never heard of till now) sounds like it could be it.

I can say that in metro Denver (of all places) it's apparently known as "Connecticut style". I've personally tried pizza at places described in the local press as having Connecticut style pizza, and it seems to be reasonably close to what I'm thinking of. However, the descriptions of Connecticut style here and on the apizza article suggest that this particular term may be considered wildly inaccurate in other regions.

Any comments or info from folks in the know appreciated. I think the Connecticut style info will have to be updated, in any case, since different regions have different concepts of what this style is. Thanks. —mjb 00:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I added some more information about Connecticut style apizza. Apizza is the closest thing to Neapolitan Style pizza I have found in the United States. Calvin Trillin remarked in his book, The Tummy Trilogy that New Haven (home of apizza) is Pizza's Holy City. It surely has some remarkable eateries. Next time I am down there I will bring my camera along and see if Albert (the owner of Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana) will let me snap a few shots for the page.Jsderwin 09:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Say it

If people have information as to the creation or local customs of pizza, ADD IT. This stuff is not easy to find on the web and if you have a book on this kind of think, do it. A relatively comprehensive guide to the history and styles of pizza, would be absolutely invaluable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.171.237.67 (talk • contribs) .

Alleged Italian and European law?

"It is illegal to have any pizza without basil and oregano." What?! Where? Whom? When? A stern outlook toward the purity of Italian cuisine may be justified, but WTF? Surely there must be a legal reference for this... --Mashford 11:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The "ongoing trend" referred to in Europe is presumably in reference to this here:
http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/foodqual/quali1_en.htm
i.e. PDO, PGI or TSG. Whether any pizzas have been granted any such status yet I do not know. I agree that "It is illegal to have any pizza without basil and oregano." is an erroneous statement that should be removed. Refrigeratorcar 02:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Chicago Style Thin Crust Pizza

living in and around Chicago all my life, I've never seen a pizza in N. illinois using provele cheese. this is purely a St. louis phenominon. I've edited the section to separate out chicago Style thin crust pizza and St. Louis style pizza. I'd also like to open up for discussion whether the real chicago style pizza is deep dish or not....I believe the "true" Chicago style pizza is thin crust.

Stuff Crust pizza should not be included in US styles

Its a commercial exploit and not a true Pizza you can find anywhere other than commercial places. I very highly suspect someone from Pizza Hut added that line.

I second this. It might be worth a mention just as an innovation, but I wouldn't call it a "style". --Mashford 22:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. This might be true if there were only one place you could get it, but stuffed-crust pizzas are available all over the place now, from big chains to mom-and-pop restaurants, and I imagine there are plenty of recipes out there to let people make their own. And given that "commercial places" were responsible for the introduction of pizza into the USA to begin with (and, according to a cryptic and uncited comment in the 'history of pizza' article, "modern-day" American pizza is "not the same" as the classical Italian pizza anyway), I'm not sure how you can say that the style having been created by a commercial place makes it somehow less legitimate. Pizza, like any food, evolves over time. --Robotech_Master 18:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

White Pizza

In Pittsburgh, PA, we have what is known as White Pizza. The crust is brushed generously with olive oil, basil, and fresh garlic. Instead of the traditional heavy tomato sauce, fresh sliced tomatoes are used. It is then topped with mozzarella cheese and baked until the crust is browned and the cheese is melted. Other toppings may be added as desired (brocolli, mushrooms, pepperoni, etc.), but I like mine plain, with plenty of tomato and garlic.

Gary K 21:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)Gary

You mean Garlic Pizza? We have that in Hampshire too, exactly as youy'rre describing. HawkerTyphoon 21:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Discuss the article, not the topic.--Atomic-Super-Suit^{What Have I Done?!} 01:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Alternate pizza Sauces

I have added to the sauces part of the article. I work at a pizza place in Milwaukee, WI, that has all the sauces I mentioned and more. I may have elaborated a bit further than desired, but I wanted to state the creativity, and flexibility of the dish. My reference is here...--Ben414 01:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Wording

"[pizza can be delivered ]to almost any address within range of the restaurant."

Almost any? What addresses within the range of the restaurant would be exempt from delivery?

Maybe a house with a force field around it preventing pizza delivery boys from coming near. my house is like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.79.76 (talk • contribs) 06:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The second paragraph of The process section in Pizza delivery gives reasons why not, such as if they're too busy and/or the value of the order is relatively low. MeekSaffron 12:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Italian and European law

"It is illegal to have any pizza without basil and oregano."

What? Where is this illegal? Neapolitan Margherita consists of tomato, mozzarella, and basil - no oregano in sight. I'm deleting this sentence, reintroduce it if you can clarify and source the law.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.79.76 (talk • contribs) 06:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Cheese

I think that much less emphasis should be placed on cheese. MY pizzas never have cheese on them. Also, if my pizzas never have cheese on them, then that is a type of pizza and i have put it into the pizza varieties section. I spit on cheese and anyone who likes it.

St Louis style

A portion of this section states: "The crust of a St. Louis pizza is somewhat crisp and cannot be folded easily ..." However, two squares can be easily pushed together to form a kind of pizza at least with IMOs. (It's very common to eat it this way especally in the absence of silverware and napkins.) This has the same end result as folding (a kind of mini-pizza sandwitch). 168.166.196.40 21:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

New York Pizza

"The slices are sometimes eaten folded in half, or even stacked, as its size and flexibility may otherwise make it unwieldy to eat by hand."

well, I've never seen anyone stack their slices (I live in New York)...and alot of people who eat the slices without folding them do so just out of habit or because they're slow eaters, while those who do eat them are sometimes just doing so because they're in a rush. Thunderstruck12 23:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Marinara

This article defines Pizza marinara as with tomato, garlic, oregano and oil. As far as I know a pizza marinara is a pizza with seafood, "marinara" meaning "being from the sea". The pizza described above is just a pizza aglio olio with added tomatoes. --Maxl 21:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Marinara" can also mean "as made by sailors" as in "marinara sauce," which is a tomato sauce without any seafood in it. Acsenray 15:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you ever think that marinara sauce could be sauce FOR seafood? 71.195.31.101 12:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Pineapple?

I don't think that pineapple should be mentioned as a typical ingredient on pizza. Pineapples don't grow on the slopes of Mt. Vesuvius. The use of pineapple was introduced - I believe - back in the heyday of Hawa'iian/Oriental cuisine, and thus is purely American. Of course you can argue that pizza is American (which assumption, by the way, is the only possible justification for calling pizza "pie"). But if it's Neapolitan, please hold the pineapple.

However, some of you might be interested to learn that the name "pineapple" is derived by physical resemblance of the fruit to a pine cone - the original proprietor of the name "pineapple." Pine trees do grow on the slopes of Vesuvius, and crunchy pine nuts in a nice pesto might make a pretty darn good topping... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.212.251.249 (talk) 08:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Baking Time?

Can somebody verify the true baking time for pizza in a stone oven? I placed a 'dubious' tag after the '60 to 90 seconds' text. The pizza would still be doughy after only a minute and a half! Mytwocents 20:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

See earlier discussion on this Talk page. If it takes 15 minutes in a 300 degree F oven, it seems perfectly sensible that it could cook in 1-2 minutes in a 900 degree F oven, which is the temperature quoted with the 60-90 seconds bit. And it also says that the dough is only 3mm thick; when you say that it "would still be doughy" that makes me think you're thinking of much thicker crust, maybe? I'm removing the dubious tag.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.229.153.14 (talk • contribs) 01:34, December 17, 2006 (UTC)

One of the given sources gives an oven temp of 800° F, but no time. The other source gives a temp of 905° F and states "Cooking time should not surpass 60-90 seconds." Prometheus^-X303- 07:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Pete Zah

I think this name needs a bit of context. The article says it is the name of a popular fictional character, but that's it. It is redlinked. Prometheus^-X303- 12:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed it. (If there is any truth in the statement, someone will restore and source it.) —Ian Spackman 14:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Pizzas in Sweden

The Kebab Pizza is pretty popular but I find it weird that its mentioned in the article, it isnt THAT popular.. anyway ive never seen one with mushrooms, the standard is kebab meat, onions, tomatoes and fefferoni. the tenderloin and bearnaise is called La Gondola and is shaped as a boat (like a gondola) - the sides are folded inwards with two small gaps on the top and on the bottom so it shapes as a boat.. i have ALOT more to write about these but im not sure anyone cares or if its necessary to add it in the article.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.227.210.250 (talk) 00:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

The purpose of the "Variations worldwide"-section is to highlight local varieties that are typical for particular regions. I think you will find that the kebab pizza is indeed typically Swedish, and so is the tenderloin + bearnaise. Mind you, no one is saying that the variations mentioned in the section are the ONLY varieties available in these locations, merely that they are typical. As you no doubt well know, most pizza merchants in Sweden offer some 40+ varieties on the menu, but there can really be no doubt that the two mentioned varieties are some of the more popular ones.

Your example of the uniquely shaped "La Gondola" certainly sounds interesting, but I would say that it can't be seen as a "standard" variety. While not claiming to be a pizza aficionado, I have personally never encountered such a pizza that you describe, and I would assume that this is a very local variety. Far too local to be mentioned in the article. --Per Hedetun talk 05:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Buffalo-Style Pizza

Buffalo, New York should have more styles of Pizza listed. A common and unique style in Buffalo is "chicken wing pizza" (to mirror Buffalo's addiction at deep-frying things) where the Pizza has blue cheese as the sauce (instead of traditional sauce) and topped with mozzarella, shredded lettuce and chicken chunks (that are usually breaded, deep-fried, and coated with Franks RedHot sauce). Also some restaurants have breakfast pizza, which is the dough, blue cheese again, topped with bacon, cheddar cheese, scrambled eggs, and more Franks RedHot sauce. Can somebody add these two variations to the Buffalo list? Tcp2 06:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)tcp2, Jan 29, 2007 1:30 AM/EST 68.43.121.167 04:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Why don't YOU do it?

nutritional info

I know it s impossible to obtain a common info considering the essentially local home made character of pizza,but I was wondering how come in an article so long it made no mention of diet issues... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.199.94.204 (talk) 03:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC). 'Bold text[Italic text]

== File:Headline text[[Media:#REDIRECT Example.ogg

• File:Block quote

]] ==

And in the end nicole hope lucas has been rewarded the money.(She is now the most richest person in the world)

pizza restaurants

I want to add a link to link removed as a resource to find pizza restaurants across the US. Thoughts?

Nconada 08:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: I don't think it adds value on an article about pizza. It's US-centered and of limited interest for the majority of the readers. Matteo (talk) 08:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, it's a commercial link. The link in the question should be removed as well. LDHan 10:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)