Talk:Carnivore diet

New studies to be added to remove bias on nutritional and health benefits

LDL cholesterol is emerging as less of a factor in overall cardiovascular health, instead triglycerides are emerging as an indicator of dangerous levels. A recent study comparing performance of Oreo cookies to high dosage statins showed that in lean-mass hyper responders Oreo cookies were far better at lowering LDL cholesterol when compared to statins. Proving that the lipid energy model (fats) is likely a better model for human nutrition studies.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38276308/#:~:text=In%20conclusion%2C%20in%20this%20case,subject%20on%20a%20ketogenic%20diet.

Likewise, the recent studies showing those on carnivore diets improving overall health status (over 90% improvement) and reduced inflammation indicates that high LDL is not an issue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8684475/

This article needs editing to seem less like a vegan wrote it, and more like a balance of what evidence is there to support a whole-food diet (elimination diet) whether this be vegan, carnivore, animal-based or somewhere in-between. This article has incomplete and inaccurate information that does not reflect the current body of evidence, or reflect sound science on nutritional benefits of elimination diets.

Additionally the reduction in inflammation from a ketogenic diet should be mentioned as all-cause mortality, mental health and reduction in Alzheimer's disease, they also use ketogenic diets in cancer treatment, as well as fasting and no-carb alternatives.

Carnivore is the same as vegan in that people can get all the nutrition they need - but statements saying that we need fibre are inaccurate. We only need indigestible fibre if we are eating all the other aspects of the 'standard diet'. When eating just meat, no fibre is needed .Vitamin C requirements also decrease where the trace amounts found in red meat (yes Vitamin C is in red meat) is sufficient to stave off deficiencies. No carnivore has ever had scurvy. Only the chicken guy and that is because he only ate chicken. Rieteklis (talk) 03:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Would need WP:MEDRS; these sources are not that. Bon courage (talk) 04:11, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

And the opinion pieces referenced in the current wiki article somehoe pass the WP:MEDRS?

How are those articles not compliant? The obvious tone of this wiki article is way off neutral and does not present the current body of science around ketogenic diets, carb free animal based etc. Even vegan or plant based articles are more neutral.

I'm not an advocate for carnivore but this article clearly reads as an opinion piece not a factually accurate representation of current nutrition science and ongoing research. That is what needs addressing. There is plenty more studies out there on nutrition of animal based societies vs plant based (Inuit etc) I just don't have the time to list them all. 1.132.108.108 (talk) 06:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Per reliable sources this diet is a load of old crap, pushed by fools and charlatans. If WP:MEDRS is too long, try WP:MEDFAQ. Also see WP:FRINGE. Bon courage (talk) 06:32, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900721000319 1.132.108.108 (talk) 06:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8755961/ 1.132.108.108 (talk) 06:39, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-021-00783-x 1.132.108.108 (talk) 06:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024687/ 1.132.108.108 (talk) 06:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Primary research is generally not WP:MEDRS, and the only secondary source among these is PMID:35071677, which is a review in a not-very-good journal and which is in any case off-topic because it's about the ketogenic diet, which has its own article. Bon courage (talk) 06:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

How is a vegan diet not the same as carnivore in concept though? Yet the vegan article is not as biased as this in terms of purported health effects, with veganism clearly requiring supplementation for some for nutrient deficiencies, but carnivore supporters don't seem to be needing supplementation. Based on that alone, the vegan article should mention the same potential nutrient deficiencies as this carnivore article does, and yet the tone is comlletely reverse. Vegans may choose not to eat any animal products, carnivores choose to not eat any plant products. The premise is the same. Some strict vegans do not eat carbs, dairy etc either, only plants. Carnivore diet seems to be based on the same premise. I don't care for either but there is a clear bias here. Vaganism is not touted as a 'fad' elimination diet, but technically they are the same in concept. I don't care for the tone is all. It is so far removed from scientific premise in just the tone, that the article reads like a daily mail piece or something on Lad bible. It doesn't belong on wikipedia in the current format and should be changed. 1.132.108.108 (talk) 07:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, WP:BIGMISTAKE. Bon courage (talk) 07:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Rieteklis, you say "No carnivore has ever had scurvy", you omit the fact that scurvy is rare to begin with. But there are case studies of carnivores who have developed scurvy. This one describes a man who lived in rural Appalachia who developed scurvy because he was only eating canned beef [1], [2]. Here is a case study of a child from Dubai who ate a diet of only red meat for 2 years and developed scurvy, he had severe bone and joint abnormalities. He was put on Vitamin C replacement therapy for 2 months and he was able to walk again. [3]. Please do not use this talk-page to promote misinformation. The stuff you are writing is not only stupidly wrong, it is harmful. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

You also link to this carnivore survey which was based on self-reported data [4]. It's been discussed many times in the archives of this talk-page. The paper found that the carnivore diet elevated LDL-c and increased coronary artery calcification (CAC) by almost 50%. The paper is not a good image for the diet you are promoting, the diet will do harm long-term and increase heart attack and stroke risk. I suggest looking at healthy diet. No health authorities or medical organizations support a carnivore diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Are you emotional? The CAC score is actually lower after the diet in the paper linked, I suspect you are having an emotional reaction and not being honest, otherwise you would not make a false claim regarding CAC scores. 140.180.240.7 (talk) 03:25, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

It's obvious you haven't read the paper. The CAC score went up by almost 50%, it's been highlighted here, look at Q3 [5]. Please do not spread misinformation. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Those are pairs with more than 5% change in post-pre. For the entire sample the median went from 2 to 0. 140.180.240.7 (talk) 13:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

You forget to mention that most people in the study never had a CAC before and after. In the paper, only 15 people had a before AND after CAC score. And those who had both, saw a 50% increase in their CAC score. Let's be honest about what the paper shows. If you look at the median for pre-diet it is 55, if you look at the median for current diet it is 81. This is an almost 50% increase. This is alarming. It shows that people on average consuming a carnivore diet for 18months had an 50% increase in CAC. Your diet is not heart healthy. That's why the drop out rate is very high and nobody in the medical world takes it seriously. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Two cases of scurvy in the 20 years among carnivores seems like a lot! How many cases of scurvy among non-carnivores? It is factual by any reasonable standard that individuals on the carnivore diet do not have Vitamin C deficiency, based on the non-existence of cases of scurvy among them. 140.180.240.7 (talk) 03:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That's because nobody in real life doing the modern "carnivore diet" fad does it long-term, they all cheat and add fruit to their diet. The drop out rate is usually after a few months. If you look at all of the major "carnivore diet" influencers they all eat fruit and in reality are only 70% or 80% carnivore. Shawn Baker has admitted to eating berries and grains, Bart Kay eats all kinds of fruit, Ken Berry eats apples and grows his own vegetables, Amber O'Hearn nearly went blind on the diet and had to add fruit and potatoes. The Liver King also eats fruit. All these social media influencers are the main carnivore diet promoters but none of them are 100% carnivore. They get their vitamin C from berries.

Paul Saladino gave the carnivore diet up after one year as it gave him heart palpitations. He now eats 300grams of carbohydrates a day including fruit smoothies. That is a typical person on a "carnivore diet" fad. As stated, nobody does it long-term. All the mainstream millionaire "carnivore" influencers eat fruit so if they can't get it "right", nobody can. The fruit eventually enters the diet and we all know why. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That is just straight up lies about Baker and O'Hearn, I interact with them a lot and that is not true. What is the point of it? Why making wikipedia bad with your personal biases? 140.180.240.7 (talk) 13:49, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

It is easily to refute your nonsense. In 2022, Baker wrote in his own words he eats fruit and birthday cake on his own Twitter account [6]. Only yesterday Shawn Baker published a video "I added fruit to my carnivore diet" [7]. None of the social media influencers for carnivore do it 100%, they all eat fruit. Amber O'Hearn has admitted in her own words to eating potatoes [8], she also eats fruit. On her website she wrote "When I got home I tried using just potato starch, in case it was a resistant starch effect, and I tried two days of nothing but potatoes". Here is Ken Berry the most popular social media influencer of carnivore diet on his farm [9] telling people how to grow asparagus. He also grows and eats tomatoes, lettuce, apples and potatoes. As stated none of the main influencers of your carnivore fad diet are really carnivore. Nobody is going to dispute these "carnivore" influencers eat a lot of red meat, but nobody is doing it 100%. Everyone knows fruit and vegetables are required for health and sooner or later those on the carnivore fad go back to eating them.

We are getting off-topic here, this talk-page shouldn't be used as a forum. There is no reason to continue this discussion. You have not presented any reliable sources for the article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

LDL and Cardiovascular disease

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This meta-analysis contends that LDL in elderly populations is inversely associated (if at all) with both cardiovascular and overall mortality I would imagine this is considered a high-quality secondary source https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401

Here is a literature review which claims LDL does not cause cardiovascular disease I would tend to think this is also a high-quality secondary source https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30198808/

These contradict the current claim in the article that LDL "increases the risk of cardiovascular disease" The currently cited source for that claim is a journalist making the point and which does not cite (for this claim) a specific expert, textbook, primary research, etc I struggle to imagine that a journalist making a claim with no evidence should be treated as more authoritative than a meta-analysis or scholarly literature review At the very least, a more authoritative source should be found — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:580:67D0:60BB:7F1C:B88C:4997 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Meatinfluencers

Hello, I wrote a section in my sandbox on meatfluencers. I am wondering if anyone would be willing to give feedback and let me know if it could be a good fit for this page? Here is the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lvogel1/High-protein_diet#Efficacy Thank you!Lvogel1 (talk) 19:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The Telegraph source can be used, I tried to add it to the lead but it was reverted because the information was not put into the article. If you have any good sources you can expand the history section. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)